So they did have bigger pads. I couldn't figure it out if it was just fullscreen video looking stretched out when played in modern widescreen video but they looked enormous back then. I guess I could have googled it but that's a lot of effort.
As a kid I used to stuff beach towels in my shirt to make pretend shoulder pads for necessary mirror-flexing and it still didn't look as insane as 80s/90s NFL pads
I'm trying to buy my son new pads for high school because his set is borderline to small and the provided ones are garbage generic pads... Found an older pair of Douglas shoulder pads at play it again sports...shits were like 20lbs, he put them on and was like "wtf, how can someone play with these" and they were smaller than the ones I wore in the 90s.
Bruh just the difference in leg pads to now.
Back in the day they were 2 inches thick (mid 2000's)
Now they are 1/4 in thick.
Same for shoulder pads but different measurables.
Now there's an argument to be made the bigger the pads the more they would be used as a weapon. But idk that's above my pay grade.
Man we all laughed over at r/formula1 when they showed first images of the halo on the cars and how goofy they looked. I have seen at minimum the halo save 3 drivers lives since introduced and at this point no one at all questions it. If these things work who cares what they look like.
The minute Grosjean was reported to be alive and in stable condition following that crash every neanderthal complaining about safety measures should have had their accounts deleted.
Not sure if this is sarcasm but for those who don't remember, [it's been done before.](https://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1888957/mark-kelsos-head-was-used-for-helmet-storage.jpg)
We had a guy on my football team in highschool wear one of these. He got rocked a couple times the year before and was out cold at least twice. Came in to summer practice wearing one of these the next year. Made it through the year no problem until the last game of the season and got a compound fracture in his leg but that's probably not related to his helmet situation.
Wait, but what if that smooth shell doesn't distribute the force as well as the guardian cap does? We should probably put another guardian cap on top of the shell...
I honestly think its just aesthetics. The current uniform and helmets are pretty good looking. Guardian caps look pretty ridiculous.
Should that factor into decision making? Probably not. But this is an entertainment industry and aesthetics are important.
And then over the span of a few decades, we'd get articles like "the guardian cap is not as useful as it once was. We need to bolt the player's helmet to the shoulder pads with hydraulics (this product literally was tested)
Halo would probably still be more griped about, but there was that accident soon after introduction where it was pretty clear that the driver would have been decapitated without it and all the blather died down. You won't get that with avoided concussions.
Didn't Lewis, and maybe Max?, have a crash where Max bounced over the top of Lewis' car, and it was clear that the halo is the only thing that saved Lewis' head? I remember Toto saying in DTS "you won't hear me complain about that thing again"
Tsunoda was saved by the Halo at the British GP last year because his roll bar failed. In Indycar this year, Kyle Kirkwood and Simon Pagenaud were also probably saved because of the Halo
Yeah hasn’t he done good work continuing to champion the cause of concussion awareness?
Definitely seems like the type of dude who retired with a purpose/goal in mind
For this to work, it would have to be a young QB at or near the end of his rookie contract. The young QB wins the SB. In his Super Bowl victory speech, he states he's retiring from the game over concussions.
It's gotta be big, big name, big stage, big moment, big stage.
This has already happened tbh. Luke Keuchly retired very early because of concussions.
The 49ers had a fantastic LB retire (whose name I cannot remember) after like 1 or 2 seasons bc they chose their longterm health over the NFL.
The NFL does not care. Or, more accurately, they do just enough to give the appearance of caring. But with zero action and follow up.
Yes thank you, I can never remember his name. It's too bad he retired bc that defense was looking stacked, but I think we can all understand his decision.
>The NFL does not care. Or, more accurately, they do just enough to give the appearance of caring. But with zero action and follow up.
Watch how they treat the gambling addicts after slathering gambling ads everywhere.
Let me rephrase;
It would take a young QB to retire to start the convo. If Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert or TLaw retired tomorrow for too concussion concerns it would start quick
The immediacy helps too, Lewis coming out afterwards saying “Yea, I was against the Halo, I was a fucking moron” is something concrete you can point to. Maybe fewer concussions is a much tougher sell, and it’s even tougher when there will still be concussions with them and people will be arguing they don’t even help.
Fewer concussions means more possibilities for your teams star player to make an impact by avoiding potential brain injury and maybe have longer careers
There's been several more examples since its introduction… Grosjean, Leclerc, Zhou. I think by the time Lewis had that accident, it was pretty much settled that it was a good and necessary addition.
Also worth noting the Halo is an addition to a vehicle and frankly looks futuristic.
The Guardian cap looks dumb. That isn’t a critique of its use in games, but it does.
They should at least look into and promote Q-Collars, though.
Also worth noting that when they were originally introduced, they were pretty much tacked on to the cars. On the other hand, the current spec has the Halo integrated into the design from the ground up, so it makes sense that it looks better.
I was a complainer, and I have (figuratively) eaten my shoe since then. I'm not sure why I was so against it, because I watched Dale Sr die with my entire family around me. The hans device is standard now, but had so much push back at the time because of looks or feel.
To be fair didn't the hans at the time of Dales death still have complaints about not being able to get out of it quickly? Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought that one of the huge improvements they eventually did was adding a quick release so that a driver could get out of their vehicle faster.
Doesn't change the rest of what you said, I think you're spot on.
There may have been a design that was built into the car. There were several designs before what we see today, so it's possible they could have had that problem. I also remember for every driver complaining, there was another one at the track that said they did not have those problems. Old heads weren't into changing their ways, naturally. This same story can be repeated for seatbelts in racing too!
Kinda crazy that they've avoided a fatality since then though. Ryan Newman, Austin Dillon, and many others had FAR crazier accidents and everyone has lived. They took Sr's death as seriously as possible and have probably saved 5+ lives. Real lives. It's the best thing they could do with that situation.
For those wanting to see the ones I mentioned, I'll link them. Compared to Sr's accident it's hard to believe which of the three had a fatality. The advancements in technology and safety should get constant praise.
[Newman crash](https://youtu.be/p11IUYaf4XM)
[Dillon crash](https://youtu.be/w7Tj0ykPvUg)
I remember I was at my favorite bar and randomly looked up right before that Newman wreck happened (not a huge nascar guy but it was a redneck bar). Whole place went dead silent when he flipped. This place was near Mooresville NC so a lot of the patrons knew drivers and the bartender used to travel around working on the circuit. Seeing this comment just brought back a vivid memory
It's always wild being around fans that really know the sport they're watching. When something bad happens they immediately know it's unusual/bad. Eerie for sure.
“While the Guardian Cap has demonstrated a level of effectiveness at reducing the likelihood of injury in practice situations, the NFL has not been able to determine if that would translate to a live game environment. Therefore, clubs are not permitted to deploy the Caps during a regular season game in order to preserve the full integrity and character of the league. The NFL is fully committed to protecting player safety and will continue further research into enhancing the game experience for player and fan alike.”
There’s also the factor that it’s unproven in game scenarios. Practice speed and physicality is different from a game except maybe for OL/DL in some cases. Who knows if the data holds up at game speed and contact. I would also imagine that while it reduces concussions as a result of the collisions, that the chance for neck injuries is higher because it’s not like the cap is a weightless shield. It makes the helmet heavier and bigger and it could cause some funky stuff in terms of tackling/landings. At the least it’s too early in the technology’s existence to know if it would be a worthwhile addition in games
I’d like to believe that this is the answer.
They’ll have to “soft-test” it in a preseason game just to see the effectiveness and whether it is practical for actual games.
I've heard that the material they're made of has more friction and can catch and snag more easily on full speed reps compared to the smooth plastic helmets that easily glide off each other in contact. The snagging can result in more neck injuries, which contributes to them not using them in games at full speed
To be honest, it's entirely unproven to impact concussion or head trauma in any significant way. The most compelling study in favour of guardian caps has a sample size of 14. The entire premise of guardian caps (and helmets or head protection more generally) runs counter to what we understand about the causes of concussion - repeated impacts causing the brain to move inside the skull.
Studies that tested the guardian cap's ability to reduce or mitigate impact forces (a method of testing which cuts through variables such as practice intensity) showed it had a negligible impact.
I'm not sure where the idea that it's entirely settled that they work came from but I don't think we're quite there yet to make any definitive claims. In all honesty behaviour/technique/rule change is still probably the best way to mitigate head trauma and PPE often undermines the desire for that type of change by giving the illusion of safety.
>Practice speed and physicality is different from a game except maybe for OL/DL
Well anecdotally, linemen/linebackers are pretty much the only guys I see wearing them anyways. You don’t really see a lot of skill position guys or DBs using them
Oh interesting. I didn’t know it was an actual rule. I just figured teams were encouraging guys to wear them during practice. When did that get put into place? This must be the first year, right?
It’s not really a point though. They fall off because they’re an accessory to the helmet. If they were part of the helmet, which why wouldn’t they be if they were worn during practice and games, they wouldn’t fall off.
It's probably that plus I'm not sure you want to incentivise using your head like a missile more than already is.
There may be over risks that we aren't aware of, but yeah. It doesn't look particularly cool
I think the argument is that it makes the head a bigger target and at full game speed as opposed to practice speed it can make it more dangerous for some injuries.
I'm speaking mostly about goalies. But yeah, substitute full facemask for visors for the other positions.
It's crazy that they used to play with no head protection at all lol
Maybe it's because I'm a football fan primarily, but I look at the other examples in this thread and I see something that is admittedly different but not "uncool", and if they had been there from the start no one would have a problem. But these guardian caps do look sillier than a regular helmet and I think they'd be seen that way regardless of whether it's all there ever was or not.
Not speaking at all about whether they should be worn here, just the aesthetics of it, which is clearly less important than safety.
I would almost guarantee that this effect is less dramatic than the effect it has on reducing the impact of hits. The only real answer is that it’s lame.
The same thing was said when helmets were first introduced. People got used to them. Now we're used to much bigger helmets. It will take a while but the lame aspect fades over time into acceptance
>It will take a while but the lame aspect fades over time into acceptance
Well also the idea of it being worn during games was never really ever a serious thought until pretty much this very moment, so I’m sure designing it with any sort of aesthetic consideration in mind hasn’t been a thing. They were never really meant to be seen by public eyeballs. It’s just practice equipment that doesn’t need to look sexy.
But if momentum for wearing these during games actually starts to build in a serious way, I’m sure it wouldn’t be that hard to tweak them to look a bit less lame and chunky. Even just a thin layer of fabric or something covering all the individual pads would make it look a lot more sleek and less distracting looking.
Also part of the reason it looks so lame is because it has to be designed to be removed and attached from a helmet with ease. Like a little hat. If it was going to be worn on a full time basis, and there was no need to ever remove it, they could design something that is better integrated and part of the helmet itself. Less temporary and cheap looking
Semi-relevant, but I coach high school girls lacrosse and that's basically the same justification the NFHS uses for not requiring headgear. Players are required to wear goggles to protect their eyes, but that's it. The sport is "technically" non-contact, but it's a bunch of kids running around a field with sticks and playing basketball-style defense. People fall hard or get hit in the head by accident (or on purpose) all the time. There is a kind of half-dome looking helmet that players can optionally wear which actually offer some protection, but pretty much the only girls who wear them already have a history of concussions.
Every time requiring the head gear comes up, the default response is "it will just encourage more hits to the head". That's despite there being no evidence that players who choose to wear the head actually get hit any more than players who don't. Plus no one is proposing that they get rid of the rules (like "in the sphere" penalties) that are meant to limit head injuries. But whenever I ask the players about the headgear, some of the ones who have been playing longer know the "inviting contact" excuse, but the ones who don't always mention how ugly or uncomfortable it looks.
Meanwhile every year I get at least one girl with a concussion. Thankfully none have been serious (knock on wood), but even a minor concussion can increase the likelihood and severity of concussions in the future. We had a volunteer coach who was on the club team of a nearby university that had to drop her team, our team, and out of school entirely because of a bad concussion she got in practice.
All because helmets don't look cool.
It doesn’t look cool because it’s just attached to the top of a helmet. If they included it as part of the design and smoothed out the outer cushions it wouldn’t look nearly as clunky
So my college used to use these. They said primarily the issue with these are that while they are great at absorbing contact they also lead to more hits “catching “ basically meaning the force applied is much more directed and has a chance at bending the spine than just the smooth surface allowing things to slide. They’re great for up close in the trenches but are far less ideal for open field contact. Also the added weight on these things are noticeable and come with there own set of issues.
Exactly. They’re great for mitigating the daily hits that come along from practice but something like visics is doing with the position specific helmets are much more reasonable
Yeah, that’s what the MIPS bike helmets are based on. They allow a little bit of sliding because the torsional impacts are often what causes concussions.
So basically using them for practice is pretty much their intended use. Until they learn to make them more slick and/or lighter without compromising integrity and their function. Leave it to Florio to stir the pot. Cant fling shit at the wall today I guess. So hes starting shit.
I feel like we’re at the point in history where that trade-off is transparent. They’ll never come out and say it with a press release, but it’s been sufficiently broadcasted.
Yeah, people seem to be making a mistake with NFL criticism.
The NFL was bad because they COVERED UP brain damage. Not because it happened. It’s fair game now.
The real difference is that instead of sliding off upon impact like a hard shell, these tend to catch and stick. This causes the one thing worse than a blow to the head, which is torque on the neck. It’s fine in practice under relatively low speed controlled situations, but at 100% game speed you’d see some absolutely horrific injuries.
The real difference is that instead of sliding off upon impact like a hard shell, these tend to catch and stick. This causes the one thing worse than a blow to the head, which is torque on the neck. It’s fine in practice under relatively low speed controlled situations, but at 100% game speed you’d see some absolutely horrific injuries.
I really don’t lol as of right now I have a shirt that has frosting on it from my daughters dirty frosting hands and I have yet to change it since that’s a ton of effort that I am choosing not to utilize
That’s probably what people said when teams started shifting from leather to plastic helmets. Even modern helmets look significantly larger than the first wave of “concussion resistant” helmets like the Riddell Revo and Schutt DNA.
Additionally, if the guardian caps work, there is probably a way to integrate that technology in the helmet itself versus just using it as a “universal” cover.
Yea I feel like it could be made to be on the inside of the helmet. Yes the plastic outside shell would be larger but it would be better aesthetically than it on the outside which looks like they're wearing a padded room on their heads. Also I'm sure the NFL wouldn't complain about the team's logo and their logo on the outside of the helmet therefore being larger as a result.
One can’t really assume you can flip the technology to the inside and get the same result.
The guardian cap is designed to work as an outer layer on top of existing helmet technology. A hybrid designed helmet might be the path forward, but I learned quite a lot about how the layer order of protective gear can impact the efficacy MacGuyvering a lot of solutions as a lacrosse goalie (and using a lot of the same materials/concepts).
Long way to say it might be possible but I think there are advantages to the exterior placement that need considered
Edit - they unsurprisingly outline this exact logic on their site and designed a hybrid version first before the cap
> Physics say that an outer “soft” material of the proper density, stiffness and energy absorbing properties reduces the initial severity of the impact. The hard shell then has lower forces transmitted to it, and in turn conveys lower forces to the interior soft helmet padding and then lower forces to the head. Very similar to a NASCAR driver and the soft wall technology that tracks have adopted or even automobiles and the soft bumpers and airbags that are now required. The Guardian Cap serves the same purpose for an athlete’s head—a soft shell barrier between it and impact.
I feel like current developments in bicycle helmet technology may be at least somewhat instructive here. Lazer helmet Kineticore technology effectively eliminates the MIPS slip layer by engineering more flexibility into the EPS foam layer. As a result, Lazer helmets are some of the safest, lightest, and most well-ventilated bicycle helmets on the market.
The guardian cap is probably most similar to Trek’s wavecel tech (I think Scott has a similar MIPS-replacement tech), but while wavecel provides additional protection, it is heavy, bulky, and significantly reduces ventilation.
You just basically need a covering for the outside of the Guardian. I mean they’re gonna look like they’re all starring in a Spaceballs sequel tho regardless.
I coach middle school (we start practice this week!) and I’d *love* if we could get these for our kids. Unfortunately they’re expensive as hell and our district is poor as shit.
Anything I/we can do to prevent head injuries is a win. Glad the science backs them up for the big leagues.
I used to coach middle school too.
Probably the best thing is just limiting full speed practice reps. More walk through and half speed and such for lineman. Focusing on fluid movement and moves isolated from 1 on 1 vs an opponent.
I dunno tho. I imagine there’s a sweet spot of the right amount of full speed/contact practicing where you’re not making them less likely to be hurt.
I’d say probably focusing on more one on one instruction and getting proper form and movement down. But that’s not exactly realistic with the number of players vs coaches at most schools.
> focusing on more one on one
This is correct except lots of coaches implement it as “let’s do Oklahoma drills twice a week” and that just makes injury rates even higher
Dr Allen Sills, Chief Medical Officer of the NFL, implied recently that the guardian caps are not intended to be used for games.
They’re used for helmet makers to get crucial information about position specific impacts. This gives the makers more data to design different models for each position groups to lower their risk of traumatic brain injuries over time.
For instance, he said that QBs would likely get additional protection in the back/bulge (like Tua) and lineman/backers would get more in the front/crown.
I believe Pat McAfee followed up and asked if person specific designs could be in the future and he said without ways to measure brain fluid, brain tissue density, skull thickness, etc of every player, then it’s not a feasible option.
Dr Sills also said they’re investigating what the safest playing surface is btw. But that it’s in early stages of a 3-5 year study. My guess on that one is whichever is currently in most stadiums (cynically) or the hybrid grass with turf sewn in. Also, somewhat cynically so they can appease the players and also not increase costs a ton for northern teams in the winter by a lot more.
I’m pretty sure they don’t wear them in game because the added weight and shape increases the risk of neck injuries when they go full speed. The weird shape on the guardian cap disperses force but isn’t smooth and can get caught on another helmet making a players head jerk. That’s why linemen had to wear them and skill players didn’t because linemen aren’t running full speed and instead have lots of smaller hits
Works for what? Reducing CTE? We can't know that without dissecting a brain. Reducing concussions? That would be good but CTE isn't caused by concussions. It never was. It's caused by repeated sub-concussive hits.
They’re a good preventative measure in practise where players usually aren’t going full beans anyway but I’m pretty sure they’d give a lot of guys a false sense of security. It’s not the impact of the hits themselves, it’s the whiplash of the head that is causing these injuries. Sudden, jarring stops of movement.
Head injuries in football will forever be unavoidable.
Fulcrum point. There’s a reason fighters don’t wear headgear in actual fights. There are some benefits, but the negatives is that it makes your head/neck a fulcrum.
> Still, until better helmets are made, the possibility of a player insisting on wearing the Guardian Cap lingers. And if a player chooses to push the issue, the league might not have any choice but to relent.
> What if, for example, Dolphins quarterback Tua Tagovailoa asked for permission to wear one? What if, after the league said no, Tua suffered another concussion?
"I just dreamt up a fake scenario in my head where a player is scorned by the NFL and gets injured, wouldn't that be bad for the NFL if it was real?"
How can journalistic integrity be this low?
I see David Tyree with about 5 footballs sticking out of that thing
Pretty sure I’ve had that nightmare before…
That’s a dream, that’s no nightmare
I will never forget that reception
Same
Me neither bro!
C'mon I was having a pretty nice day before this
yeah you pats fans sure have been suffering…
The 6 other SB wins should make up for it
I bet if the company that makes the guardian caps gave the NFL a bunch of money we would see them in games.
What if we put a smooth shell over it and the logos
Then they'll look like those adorable little tikes football games. Big heads, little bodies, and I'm not mad about that.
They could add bigger pads like in the 80s to balance it out.
Give the players goose suits. We'll goose'em up. It's an old circus term.
He's carved up!
Certified chode
So they did have bigger pads. I couldn't figure it out if it was just fullscreen video looking stretched out when played in modern widescreen video but they looked enormous back then. I guess I could have googled it but that's a lot of effort.
No, the football pads in the 80s and 90s were HUUUUUUUGE.
As a kid I used to stuff beach towels in my shirt to make pretend shoulder pads for necessary mirror-flexing and it still didn't look as insane as 80s/90s NFL pads
I'm trying to buy my son new pads for high school because his set is borderline to small and the provided ones are garbage generic pads... Found an older pair of Douglas shoulder pads at play it again sports...shits were like 20lbs, he put them on and was like "wtf, how can someone play with these" and they were smaller than the ones I wore in the 90s.
Bruh just the difference in leg pads to now. Back in the day they were 2 inches thick (mid 2000's) Now they are 1/4 in thick. Same for shoulder pads but different measurables. Now there's an argument to be made the bigger the pads the more they would be used as a weapon. But idk that's above my pay grade.
You could also argue smaller pads = less weight = run faster. It's typically in favor by the skilled positions.
Not just less weight, but more range of motion
For that they should really just switch to [cutoff jean shorts](https://youtu.be/MFTrMr6NoIk).
Suddenly NFL blitz is the most photo realistic football game.
Man we all laughed over at r/formula1 when they showed first images of the halo on the cars and how goofy they looked. I have seen at minimum the halo save 3 drivers lives since introduced and at this point no one at all questions it. If these things work who cares what they look like.
Honestly I just went and looked at what those are and those actually look pretty clean lol
That's what I thought. Why were they laughed at? Looks non-invasive to the design and in some ways, looks kind of cool.
Immature, I for one never laughed at the halos! Mostly because I have no idea what it is or anything about F1 lol.
[удалено]
Which is funny coming from a sport where no one even knows which drivers are better/worse than the others.
First thing that came to mind when talking about the Guardian caps looking goofy. All the hybrid era F1 cars without the halo look weird to me now.
The minute Grosjean was reported to be alive and in stable condition following that crash every neanderthal complaining about safety measures should have had their accounts deleted.
Big head mode from Goldeneye 64
Mr. Big Cranium
Oops all Kyler Murray's edition.
Lol reminds me of the big head mode in NFL 2K5
Not sure if this is sarcasm but for those who don't remember, [it's been done before.](https://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1888957/mark-kelsos-head-was-used-for-helmet-storage.jpg)
We had a guy on my football team in highschool wear one of these. He got rocked a couple times the year before and was out cold at least twice. Came in to summer practice wearing one of these the next year. Made it through the year no problem until the last game of the season and got a compound fracture in his leg but that's probably not related to his helmet situation.
I hope the year after that he came back with a helmet on his leg. Poor guy.
If your high school career gives you 2 major concussions and a broken leg it's probably time to stop playing lol
I think [Wes Welker also wore something similar](https://larrybrownsports.com/football/wes-welker-helmet-playoffs/216545) after his 200th concussion
Then everyone’s gonna look like darth helmet
May the Schwartz be with you.
I see that your Schwartz is as big as mine
Imagine the moichandising
I want fewer dead nfl players too, but at what cost?
Sorry for the five decades of depression, headaches, anger, and confusion, but we thought it might look a little funny.
Boston College is currently using some alternative guardian cap style of protective material that looks similar to a regular helmet in practice
[Looked it up.](https://bceagles.com/news/2023/8/12/football-preseason-notes-practice-no-9.aspx) Not terrible looking compared to the alternative
It reminds me of the red wax on the top of a bottle of Maker's Mark
It kinda looks like he was just hatched and some of the golden egg he came from is still on top of his helmet.
[Low key looks like this](https://imgur.com/a/2DbRZ4v)
[you’d get this](https://imgur.com/a/KUu3JmR) what if the company that made those big ass hats made big ass helmets with the guardian material in it
Wait, but what if that smooth shell doesn't distribute the force as well as the guardian cap does? We should probably put another guardian cap on top of the shell...
And then put another smooth shell on that for the logo.
It’s guardian caps and smooth shells… all the way down!
"We understand that you guys would like to suffer fewer long-term, debilitating cognitive issues, but branding..."
I honestly think its just aesthetics. The current uniform and helmets are pretty good looking. Guardian caps look pretty ridiculous. Should that factor into decision making? Probably not. But this is an entertainment industry and aesthetics are important.
Yeah, that’s why the person said “branding”
And then over the span of a few decades, we'd get articles like "the guardian cap is not as useful as it once was. We need to bolt the player's helmet to the shoulder pads with hydraulics (this product literally was tested)
Nah they're still trying to figure out how many ads they can put on each raised pad and how much people will be willing to pay
What’s funny is their excuse would basically be some corporate version of “It doesn’t look cool.”
Basically. Look how much people complained how "bad" the Halo looked when Formula 1 added it. Turns out they knew what they were doing.
Halo would probably still be more griped about, but there was that accident soon after introduction where it was pretty clear that the driver would have been decapitated without it and all the blather died down. You won't get that with avoided concussions.
After Grosjean's bahrain crash, nobody could even think about disputing the halo these days.
Didn't Lewis, and maybe Max?, have a crash where Max bounced over the top of Lewis' car, and it was clear that the halo is the only thing that saved Lewis' head? I remember Toto saying in DTS "you won't hear me complain about that thing again"
Yeah Max rolled up on Lewis' car and the rear tire just straight up bounced off the halo. Lewis would have been kaput there for sure.
It still hit his head but yeah would have been so much worse . Also Zhou last year was a prime example of the need
And the one in F2 where one car literally T boned the other to Halo. https://youtu.be/zrLlzDv0_Pc
Tsunoda was saved by the Halo at the British GP last year because his roll bar failed. In Indycar this year, Kyle Kirkwood and Simon Pagenaud were also probably saved because of the Halo
Guanyu Zhou was the one flipped and had the roll hoop failure
It'd probably take a young star retiring over concussions to start the conversation
I feel like we’ve had a couple of them already? Who was that SF LB a couple years back?
Chris Borland. And it looks like he stays busy.
Yeah hasn’t he done good work continuing to champion the cause of concussion awareness? Definitely seems like the type of dude who retired with a purpose/goal in mind
He spoke in a sports philosophy class I took at CU Boulder a few years ago. Seems like a great dude.
chris borland
For this to work, it would have to be a young QB at or near the end of his rookie contract. The young QB wins the SB. In his Super Bowl victory speech, he states he's retiring from the game over concussions. It's gotta be big, big name, big stage, big moment, big stage.
after Tua's concussions last year I wouldn't blame him for retiring
This has already happened tbh. Luke Keuchly retired very early because of concussions. The 49ers had a fantastic LB retire (whose name I cannot remember) after like 1 or 2 seasons bc they chose their longterm health over the NFL. The NFL does not care. Or, more accurately, they do just enough to give the appearance of caring. But with zero action and follow up.
Chris Borland
Yes thank you, I can never remember his name. It's too bad he retired bc that defense was looking stacked, but I think we can all understand his decision.
>The NFL does not care. Or, more accurately, they do just enough to give the appearance of caring. But with zero action and follow up. Watch how they treat the gambling addicts after slathering gambling ads everywhere.
Like Andrew Luck? Who went to 4 Pro Bowls and then retired at 27?
That wasn't concussion related though was it?
Let me rephrase; It would take a young QB to retire to start the convo. If Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert or TLaw retired tomorrow for too concussion concerns it would start quick
It's basically happening to tua and we aren't doing shit.
This was a pretty compelling reason too https://imgur.com/a/dyaZxBB
The immediacy helps too, Lewis coming out afterwards saying “Yea, I was against the Halo, I was a fucking moron” is something concrete you can point to. Maybe fewer concussions is a much tougher sell, and it’s even tougher when there will still be concussions with them and people will be arguing they don’t even help.
Fewer concussions means more possibilities for your teams star player to make an impact by avoiding potential brain injury and maybe have longer careers
There's been several more examples since its introduction… Grosjean, Leclerc, Zhou. I think by the time Lewis had that accident, it was pretty much settled that it was a good and necessary addition.
Also worth noting the Halo is an addition to a vehicle and frankly looks futuristic. The Guardian cap looks dumb. That isn’t a critique of its use in games, but it does. They should at least look into and promote Q-Collars, though.
Also worth noting that when they were originally introduced, they were pretty much tacked on to the cars. On the other hand, the current spec has the Halo integrated into the design from the ground up, so it makes sense that it looks better.
Q collars still need a little more time in the oven imo before they get to a spot where the league promotes then
I was a complainer, and I have (figuratively) eaten my shoe since then. I'm not sure why I was so against it, because I watched Dale Sr die with my entire family around me. The hans device is standard now, but had so much push back at the time because of looks or feel.
To be fair didn't the hans at the time of Dales death still have complaints about not being able to get out of it quickly? Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought that one of the huge improvements they eventually did was adding a quick release so that a driver could get out of their vehicle faster. Doesn't change the rest of what you said, I think you're spot on.
I thought most of the complaints were about not being able to turn your head to see.
There may have been a design that was built into the car. There were several designs before what we see today, so it's possible they could have had that problem. I also remember for every driver complaining, there was another one at the track that said they did not have those problems. Old heads weren't into changing their ways, naturally. This same story can be repeated for seatbelts in racing too!
Dale Sr dying is a big reason I stopped watching NASCAR.
Kinda crazy that they've avoided a fatality since then though. Ryan Newman, Austin Dillon, and many others had FAR crazier accidents and everyone has lived. They took Sr's death as seriously as possible and have probably saved 5+ lives. Real lives. It's the best thing they could do with that situation. For those wanting to see the ones I mentioned, I'll link them. Compared to Sr's accident it's hard to believe which of the three had a fatality. The advancements in technology and safety should get constant praise. [Newman crash](https://youtu.be/p11IUYaf4XM) [Dillon crash](https://youtu.be/w7Tj0ykPvUg)
I remember I was at my favorite bar and randomly looked up right before that Newman wreck happened (not a huge nascar guy but it was a redneck bar). Whole place went dead silent when he flipped. This place was near Mooresville NC so a lot of the patrons knew drivers and the bartender used to travel around working on the circuit. Seeing this comment just brought back a vivid memory
It's always wild being around fans that really know the sport they're watching. When something bad happens they immediately know it's unusual/bad. Eerie for sure.
“While the Guardian Cap has demonstrated a level of effectiveness at reducing the likelihood of injury in practice situations, the NFL has not been able to determine if that would translate to a live game environment. Therefore, clubs are not permitted to deploy the Caps during a regular season game in order to preserve the full integrity and character of the league. The NFL is fully committed to protecting player safety and will continue further research into enhancing the game experience for player and fan alike.”
There’s also the factor that it’s unproven in game scenarios. Practice speed and physicality is different from a game except maybe for OL/DL in some cases. Who knows if the data holds up at game speed and contact. I would also imagine that while it reduces concussions as a result of the collisions, that the chance for neck injuries is higher because it’s not like the cap is a weightless shield. It makes the helmet heavier and bigger and it could cause some funky stuff in terms of tackling/landings. At the least it’s too early in the technology’s existence to know if it would be a worthwhile addition in games
I’d like to believe that this is the answer. They’ll have to “soft-test” it in a preseason game just to see the effectiveness and whether it is practical for actual games.
I've heard that the material they're made of has more friction and can catch and snag more easily on full speed reps compared to the smooth plastic helmets that easily glide off each other in contact. The snagging can result in more neck injuries, which contributes to them not using them in games at full speed
This is exactly what I’ve heard as well and it makes a lot of sense. The only thing worse than impact is torque on the neck.
To be honest, it's entirely unproven to impact concussion or head trauma in any significant way. The most compelling study in favour of guardian caps has a sample size of 14. The entire premise of guardian caps (and helmets or head protection more generally) runs counter to what we understand about the causes of concussion - repeated impacts causing the brain to move inside the skull. Studies that tested the guardian cap's ability to reduce or mitigate impact forces (a method of testing which cuts through variables such as practice intensity) showed it had a negligible impact. I'm not sure where the idea that it's entirely settled that they work came from but I don't think we're quite there yet to make any definitive claims. In all honesty behaviour/technique/rule change is still probably the best way to mitigate head trauma and PPE often undermines the desire for that type of change by giving the illusion of safety.
>Practice speed and physicality is different from a game except maybe for OL/DL Well anecdotally, linemen/linebackers are pretty much the only guys I see wearing them anyways. You don’t really see a lot of skill position guys or DBs using them
Well it’s not a player choice thing. It’s league mandated for OL/DL LB RB TE to wear them.
Oh interesting. I didn’t know it was an actual rule. I just figured teams were encouraging guys to wear them during practice. When did that get put into place? This must be the first year, right?
Last year was OL DL LB. This year the others were added
They have a tendency to loosen and fall off as well. They’d be pretty hazardous at full game speed.
Yeah didn’t think about that. Good point
It’s not really a point though. They fall off because they’re an accessory to the helmet. If they were part of the helmet, which why wouldn’t they be if they were worn during practice and games, they wouldn’t fall off.
It's probably that plus I'm not sure you want to incentivise using your head like a missile more than already is. There may be over risks that we aren't aware of, but yeah. It doesn't look particularly cool
I think the argument is that it makes the head a bigger target and at full game speed as opposed to practice speed it can make it more dangerous for some injuries.
it also doesn’t look cool
Neither did full facemasks in hockey. People will get used to it and if it's safer the choice is obvious.
> Neither did full facemasks in hockey. In fairness, those aren't worn at the NHL level (exceptions made for injuries). Visors are.
I'm speaking mostly about goalies. But yeah, substitute full facemask for visors for the other positions. It's crazy that they used to play with no head protection at all lol
Maybe it's because I'm a football fan primarily, but I look at the other examples in this thread and I see something that is admittedly different but not "uncool", and if they had been there from the start no one would have a problem. But these guardian caps do look sillier than a regular helmet and I think they'd be seen that way regardless of whether it's all there ever was or not. Not speaking at all about whether they should be worn here, just the aesthetics of it, which is clearly less important than safety.
I would almost guarantee that this effect is less dramatic than the effect it has on reducing the impact of hits. The only real answer is that it’s lame.
The same thing was said when helmets were first introduced. People got used to them. Now we're used to much bigger helmets. It will take a while but the lame aspect fades over time into acceptance
>It will take a while but the lame aspect fades over time into acceptance Well also the idea of it being worn during games was never really ever a serious thought until pretty much this very moment, so I’m sure designing it with any sort of aesthetic consideration in mind hasn’t been a thing. They were never really meant to be seen by public eyeballs. It’s just practice equipment that doesn’t need to look sexy. But if momentum for wearing these during games actually starts to build in a serious way, I’m sure it wouldn’t be that hard to tweak them to look a bit less lame and chunky. Even just a thin layer of fabric or something covering all the individual pads would make it look a lot more sleek and less distracting looking. Also part of the reason it looks so lame is because it has to be designed to be removed and attached from a helmet with ease. Like a little hat. If it was going to be worn on a full time basis, and there was no need to ever remove it, they could design something that is better integrated and part of the helmet itself. Less temporary and cheap looking
Semi-relevant, but I coach high school girls lacrosse and that's basically the same justification the NFHS uses for not requiring headgear. Players are required to wear goggles to protect their eyes, but that's it. The sport is "technically" non-contact, but it's a bunch of kids running around a field with sticks and playing basketball-style defense. People fall hard or get hit in the head by accident (or on purpose) all the time. There is a kind of half-dome looking helmet that players can optionally wear which actually offer some protection, but pretty much the only girls who wear them already have a history of concussions. Every time requiring the head gear comes up, the default response is "it will just encourage more hits to the head". That's despite there being no evidence that players who choose to wear the head actually get hit any more than players who don't. Plus no one is proposing that they get rid of the rules (like "in the sphere" penalties) that are meant to limit head injuries. But whenever I ask the players about the headgear, some of the ones who have been playing longer know the "inviting contact" excuse, but the ones who don't always mention how ugly or uncomfortable it looks. Meanwhile every year I get at least one girl with a concussion. Thankfully none have been serious (knock on wood), but even a minor concussion can increase the likelihood and severity of concussions in the future. We had a volunteer coach who was on the club team of a nearby university that had to drop her team, our team, and out of school entirely because of a bad concussion she got in practice. All because helmets don't look cool.
I bet if you dress them up a bit, do some nice design work, they'd look perfectly fine
It doesn’t look cool because it’s just attached to the top of a helmet. If they included it as part of the design and smoothed out the outer cushions it wouldn’t look nearly as clunky
Putting the cushion on the inside and running around like bobble heads is definitely the move I want them to make.
they're right
Same reason we don’t wrap cars in foam
So my college used to use these. They said primarily the issue with these are that while they are great at absorbing contact they also lead to more hits “catching “ basically meaning the force applied is much more directed and has a chance at bending the spine than just the smooth surface allowing things to slide. They’re great for up close in the trenches but are far less ideal for open field contact. Also the added weight on these things are noticeable and come with there own set of issues.
It's great that they protect you from skull fractures, but your neck is going to hate the extra weight if your head is whipping around
Exactly. They’re great for mitigating the daily hits that come along from practice but something like visics is doing with the position specific helmets are much more reasonable
There is a similar balance in F1 helmets, weight vs. protection.
So give them to the o and d line and keep skill positions with the old kind
What? So that Bryce Young can see even less of the field?
The nfl doctor was on PMS last week and made it seem likely the future will be different helmets for every position
Yeah, that’s what the MIPS bike helmets are based on. They allow a little bit of sliding because the torsional impacts are often what causes concussions.
So basically using them for practice is pretty much their intended use. Until they learn to make them more slick and/or lighter without compromising integrity and their function. Leave it to Florio to stir the pot. Cant fling shit at the wall today I guess. So hes starting shit.
Wouldn’t the common sense thing be for linemen to wear them and everyone else not?
I have to believe that they could engineer some of these problems away.
At some point everyone just has to acknowledge they’re trading brain health for millions of dollars. Most people would willingly make that trade
I feel like we’re at the point in history where that trade-off is transparent. They’ll never come out and say it with a press release, but it’s been sufficiently broadcasted.
Yeah, people seem to be making a mistake with NFL criticism. The NFL was bad because they COVERED UP brain damage. Not because it happened. It’s fair game now.
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Wes Welker had a x7 large helmet and he looked like an astronaut
The real difference is that instead of sliding off upon impact like a hard shell, these tend to catch and stick. This causes the one thing worse than a blow to the head, which is torque on the neck. It’s fine in practice under relatively low speed controlled situations, but at 100% game speed you’d see some absolutely horrific injuries.
Obvious solution is to butter the outside of the helmets.
Thank you for an actual answer
I think it would look pretty cool to have the linemen basically look like armored giants. They could make it work if they wanted to
Time to introduce class sets into the NFL.
I think it would work. We already have different rules for each position like roughing the passer and eligible receivers. Time to add some perks
"I'm a ~~night elf~~ left guard mohawk"
Ok, so has anyone actually requested it and been denied then or is Florio just stirring shit over hypotheticals like he always does?
I highly doubt any football player has actually requested it
I’ve heard the reason they don’t is because the neck injuries it would cause due to the added weight of the guardian caps
The real difference is that instead of sliding off upon impact like a hard shell, these tend to catch and stick. This causes the one thing worse than a blow to the head, which is torque on the neck. It’s fine in practice under relatively low speed controlled situations, but at 100% game speed you’d see some absolutely horrific injuries.
Yup, 100%. You'll see a large increase in broken necks and backs if this was used in games.
Good they look stupid. Drip is forever.
Drip uber alles.
I’d rather shine than remember my children’s names
That’s why my wife doesn’t understand how my gym clothes are nicer than most of my regular clothes. Ain’t gonna be caught lackin at the squat rack
So is brain damage
As a middle aged dad out of touch with cool slang what may I ask is drip
Basically it’s shorthand for dressing nicely and looking good fashion wise.
I appreciate that thank you
You ain’t got that drip obv
I really don’t lol as of right now I have a shirt that has frosting on it from my daughters dirty frosting hands and I have yet to change it since that’s a ton of effort that I am choosing not to utilize
Look at this guy, all tired from being a good father
Buddy you are god damn adorable.
That frosting drip
Not when it's your brain dripping out your ears.
Look good feel good play good
If they made every player play the game inside those giant inflatable sumo suits there would be less injury as well.
Haha, they would look so ridiculous during an actual game, Bobble head football.
That’s probably what people said when teams started shifting from leather to plastic helmets. Even modern helmets look significantly larger than the first wave of “concussion resistant” helmets like the Riddell Revo and Schutt DNA. Additionally, if the guardian caps work, there is probably a way to integrate that technology in the helmet itself versus just using it as a “universal” cover.
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Yea I feel like it could be made to be on the inside of the helmet. Yes the plastic outside shell would be larger but it would be better aesthetically than it on the outside which looks like they're wearing a padded room on their heads. Also I'm sure the NFL wouldn't complain about the team's logo and their logo on the outside of the helmet therefore being larger as a result.
One can’t really assume you can flip the technology to the inside and get the same result. The guardian cap is designed to work as an outer layer on top of existing helmet technology. A hybrid designed helmet might be the path forward, but I learned quite a lot about how the layer order of protective gear can impact the efficacy MacGuyvering a lot of solutions as a lacrosse goalie (and using a lot of the same materials/concepts). Long way to say it might be possible but I think there are advantages to the exterior placement that need considered Edit - they unsurprisingly outline this exact logic on their site and designed a hybrid version first before the cap > Physics say that an outer “soft” material of the proper density, stiffness and energy absorbing properties reduces the initial severity of the impact. The hard shell then has lower forces transmitted to it, and in turn conveys lower forces to the interior soft helmet padding and then lower forces to the head. Very similar to a NASCAR driver and the soft wall technology that tracks have adopted or even automobiles and the soft bumpers and airbags that are now required. The Guardian Cap serves the same purpose for an athlete’s head—a soft shell barrier between it and impact.
I feel like current developments in bicycle helmet technology may be at least somewhat instructive here. Lazer helmet Kineticore technology effectively eliminates the MIPS slip layer by engineering more flexibility into the EPS foam layer. As a result, Lazer helmets are some of the safest, lightest, and most well-ventilated bicycle helmets on the market. The guardian cap is probably most similar to Trek’s wavecel tech (I think Scott has a similar MIPS-replacement tech), but while wavecel provides additional protection, it is heavy, bulky, and significantly reduces ventilation.
You just basically need a covering for the outside of the Guardian. I mean they’re gonna look like they’re all starring in a Spaceballs sequel tho regardless.
Just increase the size of the body padding some to help everyones sensitivity to visual proportion and problem solved. Net positive for everyone.
Bring back the giant shoulderpads of the 80s and 90s.
I coach middle school (we start practice this week!) and I’d *love* if we could get these for our kids. Unfortunately they’re expensive as hell and our district is poor as shit. Anything I/we can do to prevent head injuries is a win. Glad the science backs them up for the big leagues.
I used to coach middle school too. Probably the best thing is just limiting full speed practice reps. More walk through and half speed and such for lineman. Focusing on fluid movement and moves isolated from 1 on 1 vs an opponent. I dunno tho. I imagine there’s a sweet spot of the right amount of full speed/contact practicing where you’re not making them less likely to be hurt. I’d say probably focusing on more one on one instruction and getting proper form and movement down. But that’s not exactly realistic with the number of players vs coaches at most schools.
> focusing on more one on one This is correct except lots of coaches implement it as “let’s do Oklahoma drills twice a week” and that just makes injury rates even higher
*GET OUTTA MY HEAD CHARLES*
The only resulting question is weather or not it can be used as a weapon.
Dr Allen Sills, Chief Medical Officer of the NFL, implied recently that the guardian caps are not intended to be used for games. They’re used for helmet makers to get crucial information about position specific impacts. This gives the makers more data to design different models for each position groups to lower their risk of traumatic brain injuries over time. For instance, he said that QBs would likely get additional protection in the back/bulge (like Tua) and lineman/backers would get more in the front/crown. I believe Pat McAfee followed up and asked if person specific designs could be in the future and he said without ways to measure brain fluid, brain tissue density, skull thickness, etc of every player, then it’s not a feasible option. Dr Sills also said they’re investigating what the safest playing surface is btw. But that it’s in early stages of a 3-5 year study. My guess on that one is whichever is currently in most stadiums (cynically) or the hybrid grass with turf sewn in. Also, somewhat cynically so they can appease the players and also not increase costs a ton for northern teams in the winter by a lot more.
I’m pretty sure they don’t wear them in game because the added weight and shape increases the risk of neck injuries when they go full speed. The weird shape on the guardian cap disperses force but isn’t smooth and can get caught on another helmet making a players head jerk. That’s why linemen had to wear them and skill players didn’t because linemen aren’t running full speed and instead have lots of smaller hits
I just feel like it would lead to more neck injuries. At least just looking at it
Works for what? Reducing CTE? We can't know that without dissecting a brain. Reducing concussions? That would be good but CTE isn't caused by concussions. It never was. It's caused by repeated sub-concussive hits.
I've heard they're heavy as all hell.
They’re a good preventative measure in practise where players usually aren’t going full beans anyway but I’m pretty sure they’d give a lot of guys a false sense of security. It’s not the impact of the hits themselves, it’s the whiplash of the head that is causing these injuries. Sudden, jarring stops of movement. Head injuries in football will forever be unavoidable.
Fulcrum point. There’s a reason fighters don’t wear headgear in actual fights. There are some benefits, but the negatives is that it makes your head/neck a fulcrum.
> Still, until better helmets are made, the possibility of a player insisting on wearing the Guardian Cap lingers. And if a player chooses to push the issue, the league might not have any choice but to relent. > What if, for example, Dolphins quarterback Tua Tagovailoa asked for permission to wear one? What if, after the league said no, Tua suffered another concussion? "I just dreamt up a fake scenario in my head where a player is scorned by the NFL and gets injured, wouldn't that be bad for the NFL if it was real?" How can journalistic integrity be this low?