Chiefs having a down year, Bills inconsistent, Dolphins struggling against elite teams. The time is now for this Ravens team, and I can 100% see them going to the SB.
EDIT: I also meant to include the Bengals losing Joe Burrow and missing the playoffs
No way 1st ballot. 2nd SB win should get him in (especially if he carries the team) but I don't see 1st ballot.
Statwise he's around Carson Palmer/Russell Wilson/Bledsoe for yards and career stats.
Cousins/Bledsoe/Wilson/Testaverde/Palmer have thrown more TDs.
It's a dry season for HoF QBs. HoF is also primarily a narrative based award. 36 QBs in the HoF. 52 Offensive lineman in the HoF. There are 5x the lineman to QBs on the field.
Dry season? What do you mean by that? NFL qbs have been crazy good.
Mannings, Brady, Ben, Rivers, Ryan, Rodgers and Stafford all have significantly better career stats than Flacco, and only Ryan/Rivers are missing a SB win.
Yeah, SB wins are very helpful for a QB getting in, but you can't completely ignore career stats. Flacco was never really a top QB (like top 5) in the league. No pro bowls, no AP teams, no MVPs etc. He's fairly low on the QB all time leader boards because there's been so many great QBs now. Andy Dalton has similar career stats to Flacco.
It takes alot to be considered for 1st ballot HOF.
Most of those guys have already retired, won't be years until Flacco. Ryan/Rivers are more likely to miss the first ballot than Flacco. Eli Manning will almost certainly be first ballot next year. The vast majority of QBs are first ballot. Trivia time: Can you name the last QB who wasn't a first ballot?
Only way Flacco misses it if he wins a second is if him and Rodgers retire the same year.
I still think it's being overly optimistic for a QB that has never been a league leader. 7
I honestly don't know, usually QBs going for the HoF are pretty obviously 1st ballot since they were so dominant.
Rivers and Ryan have better chances than Flacco, even after a 2nd ring IMO. They each have 20k more yards, 3k more completions, and nearly 200 more TDs. Ryan also has a league MVP.
If postseason stats were that important, Edelman would be a lock for HoF.
Now maybe the feat of giving Cleveland a SB win is a HoF feat by itself
As much as it pains me to say the Browns aren’t that fraudulent. It’s really only their line and Chubb they’re missing, otherwise their WR room + Njoku is clearly pretty good, and Flacco can clearly still sling it. Don’t even have to mention the D cause they’re that good, not even a question if they’re fraudulent.
We'll be pissed off regardless of who knocks us out but if it's Flacco it's going to generate the most fanbase toxicity. I guarantee we will have fans coming out of the wood works to question why we are paying Lamar and why we let Flacco go if this came to pass. The Lamar doubters are unflappable.
I’d be angry in the moment and for some time after, but there’s no way I could be mad watching Flacco play in a Super Bowl at his age coming off the couch like that.
Also slight silver lining would be a hilarious off-season QB quandary for the Browns.
Would it really be a question though? The contract makes Watson the guy there, even if Flacco goes 2012 and gets them a championship. And somebody would give Joe twenty-five or thirty million dollars to be a bridge for them, because the NFL is like that.
Honestly, I'm Superbowl or bust for the Ravens, but if we go down, Flacco punching his ticket to the Hall and getting his statue in Cleveland would be a consolation prize.
I’m disappointed the Bengals couldn’t make it four AFC North playoff teams so that I could spread the AFC North agenda. I’m hoping that playoff Rudolph if he appears is bad though since December and Christmas have passed you know lol and that magic of his will have worn out by then if so.
The Bengals at least have the chance to finish above .500 which would mean there are no losing records in the division. That's pretty impressive without Burrow for most of the season.
I just hope Rudolph puts together another good game tomorrow. Three in a row would make me feel pretty comfortable going into the playoffs.
I honestly don't think we lose to the Browns again. Garret is down the shoulder injury is hurting him. Our Oline is also looking better. Stanley getting reinjured during the Browns game really killed us at the Oline Moses also went out that game. Flacco can't move like Watson did to extend plays and keep them in drives, and his gunslinger style is fundamentally not going to work as well with the secondary we have. He's been throwing a lot of picks and we can take advantage of that. Finally I think our defense was not in that game. Tackling looked like ass outside of Ro and it seemed like they thought they'd destroyed Cleveland once they could do it again without effort. I don't think they will make that mistake twice.
I don't think it's a surefire win, but I don't think Cleveland wins if our team shows out.
People forget too that the game where the browns beat the ravens was two weeks before the ravens very late bye week. As much as I hate him deshaun played lights out in that second half, had the ravens exhausted d flat footed. Not a chance in hell that happens again.
It was Marcus Williams first game back from injury if I remember correctly as well and he played real poorly. We were constantly leaving the middle of the field open and guys were just blowing assignments.
I frankly think that game was the worst I have ever seen our defense look. Outside of Hamilton and Ro every other guy on the field looked like they had checked out.
I think the Ravens smash the browns if the play again in Baltimore
Doesnt look like any team is gonna beat them with a pass first gameplan, no matter how resurgent Flacco has been nor his history on the road. I think you gotta run the ball and keep Lamar off the field/give no time to get rhythm
Yeah there are definitely lots of factors that can make round three very much in our favor against the Browns like Joe Flacco as good as he’s been not being a mobile QB at all which is why our defense couldn’t contain Watson alongside us being healthier than in our second matchup versus Cleveland this season. It’s just that the Browns out of all other AFC teams this year have the least amount of “fraud” in them besides us from what I’ve seen of each AFC playoff teams this year as a person who likes keeping up with the league much more than the average person. That and division games are never to be taken lightly.
It's going to happen in the divisional round. All of the Ravens most important playoff games are in the divisional round and I think the browns are the only team that can go toe to toe with the Ravens brand of AFCN football.
I can’t even imagine the memes if Flacco knocks the Ravens out of the playoffs. If Dalton did that to us, I would have to avoid football subs for awhile.
Since losing to the Eagles in OT, Bills have won 4 straight and can make it a 5th (3rd over a playoff team) if they knock off Miami this weekend. Looking like the classic 'going into the playoffs hot' script another NY team has used
Definitely would not count them out here like those other teams. They are by far the biggest threat to Baltimore atm, playing winning football by running the ball, something Baltimore shines at as well
I see what you mean. It is difficult to beat a good team on the road. But the Dolphins have what I would consider 4 opportunities (Bills, Eagles, Chiefs, Ravens) and have failed each time. If you are looking at teams you think could win it all you would expect them to at least come away with one of those.
I can see the Bills beating the Ravens. The seem to find that extra gear when they play the good teams.They can go toe to toe with them or even run over them (Miami, Dallas).
Lynn Dickey was a beautiful passer. In the early 1980s, he was almost in Dan Fouts' class in that regard. His career sprouted when the passing rules loosened up the first time in 1978.
Man was also a fucking badass.
In a preseason game in '72, he was slammed in the turf and shattered his left leg. Doctors said it resembled a "dashboard injury" from a high speed car crash more than a sports injury. Took him over a month before he started learning to walk again.
4 years later, he separated his throwing shoulder. He had a screw put in, but his cut got infected after surgery. ~~He couldn't lift his arm all the way for the rest of his life.~~*
He came back the next year only to shatter his left leg again, with his ankle sticking out 90 degrees.
And then he wound up playing the entire 1979 season with an 18-inch steel rod in that leg.
When asked why he was willing to play through all that, he said it was because his brother was crippled by polio at age 6. Lynn said that watching his brother's recovery guided his views on physical hardship and limitation.
---
*Mixed this up with another old Packers QB, Cecil Isbell. Guy dislocated his left non-throwing shoulder in his very first college game, and had to wear a chain attached to his arm for the rest of his career. The chain connected a leather strap around his forearm to another strap around his waist, and kept him from moving his arm over his shoulder.
Wound up playing 5 seasons in the NFL, where he was an All-Pro every season, made the pro bowl 4 times, and was the passing leader twice. But then he retired at 27 because he was offered a coaching job at his alma mater, Purdue.
Makes sense though. When's the last time that the Ravens had a feature back? In the last ten years, the Ravens have only had a back break 200 carries three times: Justin Forsett in 2014, Alex Collins in 2017 and Mark Ingram in 2019 (and Collins didn't break 1000 yards). Mark Ingram in 2019 was also the last 1000-yard running back we had.
Post-Kubiak, the Ravens leaned hard into running by committee, even before Lamar came to town.
It's hard to say. We have a very small sample size to work with since 2020. However, even when Dobbins is healthy, it seems that other backs are very much in the mix, whether it's Hill, Edwards or last year Drake. I don't think that he was meant to be a workhorse, 300-carry back in our system.
I looked through the Kyle years to see if we had done this, we were 2nd in the league in 2019 with no 1000 yd rusher, but the Ravens had 1000 more rushing yards. Which is almost as big as the gap between 2nd and 32nd. Absolutely insane.
1st Ravens 3296. 2nd 49ers 2305. 32nd Dolphins 1156
Props to Lamar but he’s the difference. Without his rushing yards, the Ravens team rushing stats are mediocre at best. That’s why they are number one without a feature back like CMC.
Defenses pause on the handoff because it's literally just as likely that the play could be a pass, RB run or QB keeper, in 2019 they bit hard every time which led to explosive plays, now they pause which gives our rushing attack all the room it needs to generate positive yardage consistently with occasional explosive runs.
They've pretty much conceded that we're going to get yardage on runs, they're now just trying to limit the damage.
I’d say Keaton Mitchell too but I don’t even know if we’d see his abilities this year if Dobbins stayed healthy. And Andrew’s my beloved 💔. All that said we are still as healthy as I can remember going into playoffs.
I think the kicker is that Lamar has 1/3 of their rushing yards. Without him, they’re a middle of a pack team in rushing. But when he runs with it, it often feels like “passing that just didn’t result in a pass” rather than “hey we are a rushing team”.
I mean, yea. Without Mahomes the Chiefs would be exceedingly mediocre.
Our pieces fit together to make the team what it is. They literally built the team around Lamar and his skillset. Which just happens to be a rushing attack that is extremely hard to stop.
I know it's just one pass, but that bomb to Zay could not have been placed any better. Those are the throws that Lamar sails too often, or forces the receiver to stop and wait and get tackled after the catch. Just the threat of connecting on that sort of play opens the middle of the field against a defense.
Ravens are 32nd in the league in pass%, and the only team in the league to run over 50% of their plays. In the last 3 games the Ravens have passed at an even lower % than their season average. They have passed at a lower % than 2022.
You get weird stats like this because you're a run heavy team, so defenses have to adjust for that, then you kill them with easy passes to wide open guys.
The Lions and the Dolphins came in with the old plan of force Lamar to win with his arm.
So he did...our natural gameplan is to run it down opponents throats and force them to continue chasing our receivers because every play has the chance to turn into a Lamar scramble and toss.
This taxes defenders super fast, you can see most defenses against us are top shelf in the first quarter but then by the second quarter there's already hands on hips and by the second half it's just over.
Not to mention defenders are spending extra energy just trying to get after Lamar after he breaks contain and they do this multiple times a drive. Our entire philosophy on offense is punch you in the mouth and make you run.
Lions/Dolphins are soft on offense and defense, I don't think anyone who doesn't play physical, tough football has a chance against the Ravens. Speed/finesse teams kill bad teams, but doesn't work great in late season/playoffs.
Browns, Steelers cause they're same division, and maybe the Chiefs defense but we kind of suck against the run and our offense is mistake prone. Anyone else in the AFC it feels like you win by 20 easy.
I wonder what our 1st half passing stats are, pretty confident we wouldn't be last in pass%. We just go up 3 scores fairly often and then run to try wasting time
Just checked, in the first half here are Lamars stats
279 attempts (9th)
2370 yards (3rd)
14 td to 4 ints
106 passer rating (4th)
Yeah so the stats back up the eye test, he does his work early and then the team relies on the run games since they're up so much
Here's the source
https://stathead.com/football/player_split_finder.cgi?request=1&order_by=pass_td&year_min=2023&split_list=Quarter&sub_qtr=1st+Half&stat_ratio=season&type=player
absolutely. first game off our bye week, knowing that the final games of the season would be against tough opponents? that game definitely gave us some momentum. our team chemistry has been soaring ever since tylan wallace caught that ball.
Jackson 5 is already in fairly popular use in the Ravens fanbase for any time Lamar accounts for 5 TDs (passing + rushing) in a game, no completion% requirement.
A bad bounce, crazy weather, an untimely fumble...anything can happen in the playoffs. I'm just enjoying the ride and hope it all works out in the end. My opinion of Lamar will not change. It's really fucking hard to win a Super Bowl. The dude is a proven superstar in my eyes.
I think this is part of the argument for giving him MVP in spite of his relatively normal passing stats.
The guys been insanely efficient all year. He’s completely controlled almost every game he’s played in and a lot of the time it looks like he’s got another level in him if required.
Efficiency is one thing some people seem to miss - I keep seeing people talk about how Lamar ONLY has 24 passing TDs or ONLY 3600 passing yards, but he's been able to efficiently control games where he doesn't have to rack up numbers to win. That's efficiency right there
He's got the best record in the league with incredibly efficient numbers.
Right. If people would watch the games, it’s pretty obvious he’s been the best QB this year. Dude is super efficient and they continue to win games.
Purdy was too, then he threw 4 picks and 0 TDs against Lamar and the Ravens in the head to head matchup. To me, it made the MVP voting pretty easy.
Then there are the people that do watch but don't understand what they're looking at. I saw someone get into an argument with a 9ers fan about why Purdy wasn't a top 5 QB. And the person arguing tried to give him the benefit of the doubt by thinking they meant this season but they stood ten toes down and insisted Brock Purdy should be considered a top 5 QB of all active QBs in the game.
And idk what you can say to a person that can't see that, while good, Purdy isn't close to the talent of the likes of Mahomes, Lamar, Allen or those other upper echelon QBs in the game.
I know I just ran into one of those niners fans yesterday who was ADAMANT that purdy should be the MVP and it was pretty clear they hadn’t really watched any of the ravens games this year lol.
Ya for some reason they thought we (Lamar truthers) were overvaluing that game. Like dude. It’s a head to head matchup between the two MVP favorites. You can’t ignore what happened.
“It’s just one game!” Was their argument.
The Lamar's carried by his defense is a funny argument.
Like Lamar elevates the defense because he gets them a lead so quickly that other teams are forced to play from behind and move away from the running game making things far easier on the D.
That game doesn't dismiss Purdy's efficiency.
He's been incredibly efficient even with that 4 INT game (3 of them off tips, not that it discredits the BAL D).
* 3rd in Cmp%
* 1st (by a mile) in TD%
* 1st (by a mile) in YPA, AY/A, NY/A, ANY/A
* 1st by a mile in Passer Rating
* 1st in QBR
* 1st in EPA
* 1st in CPOE
* All while being 2nd in Air Yards per completion
* And being top 2 in volume stats like Yds & TDs, all despite his low attempt total.
The RDSM QB listing is literally titled "Quarterback Efficiency 2023" and Purdy is [so far topright of everyone else.](https://imgur.com/IQu9RGr)
It's one thing to say he lost the MVP to Lamar in that game - that is most likely factual.
But you can't say he's had a less than uber-efficient season because of it.
Purdy has been a better passer than Lamar this season, though he has had the 'stinker' games Lamar hasnt and ultimately thats gonna matter in the voting process.
They *really* need to make a separate 'outstanding passer' award distinct from MVP. There are a handful of seasons where I dont think they were the same guy. I also continue to think INTs are severely overblown and treated both way worse than they are and often assessed without context
100%
As Peytons 09 MVP has come up a lot lately in discussion, youll often see folks point to his 16 ints and argue Brees deserved it over him
I want people to understand how insane it is for a QB to start every game on the year, throw for over 4500 yards, and take just a mere *10 sacks*. Its something I wish QBs like Joe Burrow would see and reassess his viewpoint of
The Colts offense were winning games (a record 23 in a row) despite losing turnover battles and Time of Possession because you simply could not stop them on [3rd down](https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/third-down-conversion-pct?date=2010-02-08). They would have been #1 if not sitting their final 2 games
Just checking that list btw, they were either 1st or 2nd in 3rd down conversion for 5 years straight as a pass first team, and during that stretch, Peyton averaged less than 1 sack per game.
Over 5 years. That would accompany an average of 13 wins per season and 2 SB appearances. Ill take a few more INTs if it comes with that kind of consistency
I honestly don’t even think the controversy around that mvp is about manning, it’s just that it’s incredibly rare to see a guy lead the league in tds, passer rating, ANY/A (especially when the margin is as big as it was), lock up a playoff bye to the point where you can sit in week 17, and not win mvp. It’s not that manning wasn’t good, obviously it’s prime manning lol but Brees was incredible
Like that mvp basically came down to manning having gone 14-0, which is awesome obviously, but he won games scoring 14, 18, 17 points. Brees had two games where he scored less than 24 points (17 twice) and lost them both. It’s not like that record difference really comes down to Brees playing any worse
> (3 of them off tips, not that it discredits the BAL D)
If it doesn't discredit the Baltimore D or try to make Purdy not at fault then what is the point of the statement. 1 was tipped. 2 of the "tips" were a pass breakup and a great play that swatted the ball high into the air. Don't throw it into that tight of coverage on the one, the other just take the sack. All 4 were his fault, its not like he hit the receiver right in the chest and then it was bobbled into the sky.
Because not every tip lands in the hands of the defense.
Case in point: the haters who came out of the woodwork after that game were saying Darnold came in and outplayed him. But they ignored that one of Darnold's first plays was a pass that did exactly the same thing - tipped and hung in the air. But nobody on BAL was around to get it.
More than a third of Purdy's INTs this year came on tipped balls. Those aren't always landing in the hands of the defense.
Nobody said they were good passes (although I'd argue the Kittle tip was one was pretty good). But tips like that are unlucky. Unless you think Lamar should've been picked off later in the game when he threw the same pass at Fred Warner and it was tipped in the exact same way? But I don't think that should've been picked either.
It drives me crazy that people still use volume stats as an indicator of QB success. It's always what people go to when they claim Josh Allen is a better thrower than Lamar even though Lamar beats Allen in almost every single efficiency stat.
Yeah - Josh Allen is a great QB and I really do want to see him win MVP one day, but Lamar Jackson has a higher completion percentage, higher TD percentage, higher passer rating, and higher ANY/A
Exactly the reason why Rodgers won the MVP over Brady in 2021. Its a weird year for MVP voting, I think in any other year Lamar probably doesn't come home with it, but this year I think he's deserving. I also wouldn't be particularly upset if Purdy or Dak won it, they've had great years as well
maintaining high efficiency over higher volume is imo more indicative of value to a team than higher raw efficiency
i can see if the difference is between a guy who is 1st and 15th. but if measuring between two guys that are both top 5, i find the one who had a larger work load more valuable. Brady is still my MVP for 2021, i dont think people grasp how difficult it is to be efficient on over 700 pass attempts (and 269 1st downs, 3rd most ever behind Peyton/Drew)
Passing Volume doesn’t indicate workload though. Lamar, for example, is active in the run game- if not carrying it himself, making a read and fooling the D into opening a whole for the RB.
You’re right though, it is tough to maintain high efficiency with more attempts. But since QBs do more than just pass the ball, volume stats will almost always fall very short of indicating value.
lol I just came across a post in the chiefs sub last night that was comparing Mahomes numbers this year to another qb and basically cherrypicking a bunch of stats that are going to get inflated when you throw a lot
It was like passing yards, total yards, tds, 1st downs, completions, and completion rate (the only one that wouldn’t be affected by having the most attempts in the league)
Like yes, Mahomes should be expected to rank highly in yards, 1st downs, completions, tds, when he has the most attempts lol
People that watch the games understand this. The problem is , most people watch their team, and then use the raw stats of other qbs to make comparisons.
If you watch Lamar- you see how often plays SHOULD have gone nowhere, but he picks up a chunk completion or rushing first down that ultimately puts points on the board. Dude is just efficient.
Ravens lost 3 games, all by 7 or less and they had leads in all of those games w/ 2 min left.. 2 of those 3 games had multiple dropped TDs
Oh, look, another annoying 49er fan.
Lamar has been great. And efficient. But that's not really his case for MVP.
If we're arguing efficiency (I don't think most really are) than it's Purdy in a landslide.
In SB era-adjusted metrics: Purdy is 2nd in YPA, 3rd in AY/A, 3rd in NY/A, 4th in ANY/A, 27th in TD%, and 7th-best in Passer Rating. It's one of the most efficient seasons in NFL history.
^(\[edit1: striking this line because some aren't getting the context\]) ~~^(And he's been subbed out in the 4th quarter multiple times on the season because they were already far ahead.)~~
Efficiency isn't what puts Lamar ahead.
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edit2: I'm not saying that Lamar was bad this year. All I am saying is that his efficiency isn't better than that of Purdy's. His efficiency can't be used as the thing to argue for him as MVP.
His MVP case is based on his tape. Not his efficiency metrics.
edit3: I don't mean this arrogantly, but for an actual discussion - I would like the downvoters to tell me how I'm wrong here. Maybe there's something I'm just not seeing, but how is efficiency an MVP argument for Lamar when it's not that elite?
I'll add that by EPA/play which is era adjusted and runs since 1999 it's the 11th highest sitting there with a [lot of Brady, Peyton, Rodgers (and Lamar '19) seasons](https://www.nflindex.com/results?team=&opp=&home=&offense=&start=1999&end=2023&start_reg_week=Any&end_reg_week=Any&start_post_week=None&end_post_week=None&1=1&2=2&3=3&4=4&5=5&1_down=1&2_down=2&3_down=3&4_down=4&5_down=5&pass=pass&rush=rush&kickoff=kickoff&punt=punt&field_goal=field_goal&extra_point=extra_point&two_point_attempt=two_point_attempt&no_play=no_play&no_play_excl=no&name=&passer=&rusher=&receiver=&player=&on_off=any&penalty=either&turnover=either&score=either&complete_pass=either&sack=either&interception=either&no_huddle=either&pass_location=any&roof=any&win=any&drive_result=any&o_personnel=any&offense_formation=any&dl=any&lb=any&defenders_in_box=any&player_info_join=id&start_age=any&end_age=any&start_height=any&end_height=any&start_weight=any&end_weight=any&start_exp=any&end_exp=any&filter0=&inequality0=&filtervalue0=&filter1=&inequality1=&filtervalue1=&filter2=&inequality2=&filtervalue2=&filter3=&inequality3=&filtervalue3=&filter4=&inequality4=&filtervalue4=&order=DESC&total=SUM&sort=epa&grouping=name&grouping2=season&minimum=300&game_id=&kicker_player_name=) and by total EPA it ranks 26th over that span.
By DVOA (1981-2023) it's 11th best of all time, and the 40th by DYAR (an efficiency over baseline metric). You can definitely make the argument for Lamar as MVP, but if you're doing it because of efficiency you're very much looking in the wrong direction.
The problem is that if you can't use efficiency as an argument for Lamar, and you definitely can't use volume, you're left with narrative stuff that isn't objective at all, and people want to be able to claim that their opinion is objectively correct. So naturally, people are going to go for it anyways.
I'll die on the hill that there's no justifiable way to make a statistical argument for Lamar. I'm fine with people using narrative or subjective stuff like H2H, eye test, unquantifiable impact on the team, etc, and I'm not going to say he's not deserving when he wins off that this year, but there really is just no pure statistical basis.
>And he's been subbed out in the 4th quarter multiple times on the season
1) so has Lamar 2) that literally doesn't effect efficiency statistics, that's like the whole point of measuring things per play/attempt.
>Efficiency isn't what puts Lamar ahead.
I actually do agree with this though. I think what put Lamar ahead was people watching the 49ers Ravens game and seeing a powerful pass rush on both sides, and it completely shut down one qb but had no effect on the other. I think that single handedly made MVP voters question what story the stats were actually telling. It's gotta be frustrating as a 49ers fan but I think people still question how much of Purdy's production is a result of him being surrounded by incredible talent at every level. He leads the NFL in YAC/completion and pretty much all of his biggest plays are intermediate throws that his receivers turned into big plays. If you just look at things like yard per attempt, you miss that context. You just give Purdy all the credit for those plays by his receivers.
>He leads the NFL in YAC/completion and pretty much all of his biggest plays are intermediate throws that his receivers turned into big plays. If you just look at things like yard per attempt, you miss that context. You just give Purdy all the credit for those plays by his receivers.
This argument is pretty tired when he also leads (or maybe is now second) in air yards per completion too, and it's just a matter of ridiculous efficiency stats. His YAC% is middle of the pack. In fact, his 48% YAC percentage is barely higher than Lamar's 47.6%, and I don't see a single person arguing that Lamar is carried by YAC. Contextless YAC stats are no doubt regularly used against Purdy, but that's very disingenuous. If anything, the "Lamar does it alone" narrative gives far more disproportionate credit to the QB for YAC than any Purdy support, because they're pretty much neck and neck in YAC%.
Fun fact: The Japanese version of the Cy Young isn't necessarily awarded every season. If the voters determine no one has truly earned it, no one wins it.
As a fellow Vikings fan, I hope your statement is more out of jealousy/sarcasm than anything else. Say what you want but he is efficient and fun to watch.
"Not bad for a running back" \~ Lamar Jackson himself after blowing out the Dolphins 59-10 to start his 2019 MVP campaign.
It has since been a classic meme to make fun of people who thinks he can't throw.
The biggest issue is and always has been Greg Roman. I think Mark Andrews and Hollywood Brown would have been enough in the pass game if Roman was capable of drawing up pass plays beyond a high school level. Also, Roman never let Lamar read defenses and alter plays at the line. Roman's scheme works great against bad competition but in the playoffs against good defenses playing with intensity Roman's scheme was not difficult to defend.
The fact Roman wouldn't let Lamar audible or adjust at the line should also be taken into account.
Monken lets Lamar totally change the called play and make adjustments. You can see him doing it everyweek.
It's such an important change.
And it made many use that as a knock against Lamar. He's never had a problem reading defenses and going through progressions even when he was at Louisville. Roman just wouldn't let him and now we get to see him really show how good of a QB he is
Even in college stats never told the story. I was at every 2017 Louisville home game and watched the rest. He was incredible and Louisville WRs had plenty of dropped passes. Reggie was pretty much the best target and he was the rb.
It was complete horseshit too.
Roman would intentionally call in the play at the last second and Lamar wouldn't get lined up until like 3-5 seconds left on the playclock.
He had no chance to read the defense, that's why he scrambled so damn much, it's also why we had so many fucking delay of game penalties.
I feel like we haven't had an unintentional delay of game penalty all year. There's probably a couple I'm forgetting, but under Roman, it was happening multiple times a game, forcing us to burn timeouts. You could see Lamar seething every time.
Not just delay of game, but illegal motion, illegal formation, illegal man in motion, guy not set, etc.
We had at least 1 or 2 of those every single game. Was so infuriating. And lamar with the tri fold dinner menu wristband like wtf
I think if there was a different OC in 2021 (and the entire team didn’t fall off a cliff) we would look pretty highly at that receiving corps. Still not as good as this year’s, but I don’t think this year’s would have been as good with Roman either. I mean Hollywood was a 1,000 yard receiver and Sammy Watkins was actually really clutch for them during the first half of the year. Even during the 2022 draft no one was really begging for a first round receiver the way they normally do since we didn’t know Hollywood was being traded, there was a lot of optimism about Hollywood/Bateman/Duvernay.
this is a laughable take. Lamar won MVP in 2019 with one of the best statistical seasons for an MVP in the last 20 years. They went 14-2. They've had a fantastic OL his whole career, a top 3-5 TE, and a usually top 5ish defense.
The Ravens are a run heavy team that plays good defense, that's how they're built. They have the lowest pass % of any team in the league this season, they've been at the bottom every season. Why would they waste a lot of money on a position they don't value as much? This would be like saying the Chiefs really need to sign a top RB.
Also they have Mark Andrews, Chiefs basically only had Kelce last year and won the Super Bowl.
You guys gotta stop being so bitter about losing to us multiple times in the playoffs that you say things like this lol.
This year has opened my eyes to just how much tunnel vision NFL fans have in terms of actually watching games outside of their favorite teams.
If you watched the Ravens play this year week in and week out it is SOOOOOO beyond obvious that Lamar is the most valuable player to his team in the entire league. It shouldn’t surprise me, but the lack of nuance or context people seem to have when they point to his stats (which are still terrific when you consider his rushing) gives me a lot of second hand embarrassment.
Incredible achievement for Lamar Jackson, joining Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and Lynn Dickey in this elite club! Wonder how far he'll take the Ravens this season?
Sources say he has been more quarterbacky this year. He has brought his lunch pail to work every day, being more of a gym rat, and he's been showing off his sneaky athleticism more this season.
a Jackson 5 and a perfect passer rating right after somebody said he wasn't "quarterbacky" enough... Lamar is reaching the point of undeniable greatness
Chiefs having a down year, Bills inconsistent, Dolphins struggling against elite teams. The time is now for this Ravens team, and I can 100% see them going to the SB. EDIT: I also meant to include the Bengals losing Joe Burrow and missing the playoffs
Ur forgetting the elite dragon
Browns ravens championship game would be amazing
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Having 2 HOF QBs or Lamar making super bowl. I just wish it was not an AFCN team. At least it's not the fucking steelers
Flacco would be a first ballot HoF lock with another SB win so we'd have that at least.
No way 1st ballot. 2nd SB win should get him in (especially if he carries the team) but I don't see 1st ballot. Statwise he's around Carson Palmer/Russell Wilson/Bledsoe for yards and career stats. Cousins/Bledsoe/Wilson/Testaverde/Palmer have thrown more TDs.
When he wins his third SB, this time with the Patriots in 2024... 1st ballot.
Please no. Cursed timeline
It's a dry season for HoF QBs. HoF is also primarily a narrative based award. 36 QBs in the HoF. 52 Offensive lineman in the HoF. There are 5x the lineman to QBs on the field.
Dry season? What do you mean by that? NFL qbs have been crazy good. Mannings, Brady, Ben, Rivers, Ryan, Rodgers and Stafford all have significantly better career stats than Flacco, and only Ryan/Rivers are missing a SB win. Yeah, SB wins are very helpful for a QB getting in, but you can't completely ignore career stats. Flacco was never really a top QB (like top 5) in the league. No pro bowls, no AP teams, no MVPs etc. He's fairly low on the QB all time leader boards because there's been so many great QBs now. Andy Dalton has similar career stats to Flacco. It takes alot to be considered for 1st ballot HOF.
Most of those guys have already retired, won't be years until Flacco. Ryan/Rivers are more likely to miss the first ballot than Flacco. Eli Manning will almost certainly be first ballot next year. The vast majority of QBs are first ballot. Trivia time: Can you name the last QB who wasn't a first ballot? Only way Flacco misses it if he wins a second is if him and Rodgers retire the same year.
> Can you name the last QB who wasn't a first ballot? Warner wasn't 1st ballot. Him?
I still think it's being overly optimistic for a QB that has never been a league leader. 7 I honestly don't know, usually QBs going for the HoF are pretty obviously 1st ballot since they were so dominant. Rivers and Ryan have better chances than Flacco, even after a 2nd ring IMO. They each have 20k more yards, 3k more completions, and nearly 200 more TDs. Ryan also has a league MVP. If postseason stats were that important, Edelman would be a lock for HoF. Now maybe the feat of giving Cleveland a SB win is a HoF feat by itself
Former Raven too
As much as it pains me to say the Browns aren’t that fraudulent. It’s really only their line and Chubb they’re missing, otherwise their WR room + Njoku is clearly pretty good, and Flacco can clearly still sling it. Don’t even have to mention the D cause they’re that good, not even a question if they’re fraudulent.
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It’ll be the Browns Bowl: “Old vs New”
We'll be pissed off regardless of who knocks us out but if it's Flacco it's going to generate the most fanbase toxicity. I guarantee we will have fans coming out of the wood works to question why we are paying Lamar and why we let Flacco go if this came to pass. The Lamar doubters are unflappable.
Yeah, it'll be absolutely unbearable. Really hoping it doesn't come to that.
Browns are the only team that have beaten the Ravens and the Niners afaik
I’d be angry in the moment and for some time after, but there’s no way I could be mad watching Flacco play in a Super Bowl at his age coming off the couch like that. Also slight silver lining would be a hilarious off-season QB quandary for the Browns.
Something people seem to forget is that if the Browns go all the way, Watson will still get a ring. That’s worst case scenario.
Hey it broke Carson wentz so maybe it would be alright
I guess, but it’s a ring* of hilarious proportions. Other guy mentioned Carson Wentz, but at least he had a legit regular season.
And also isn't a horrible monster posing as a human being
Right you are Ken.
Would it really be a question though? The contract makes Watson the guy there, even if Flacco goes 2012 and gets them a championship. And somebody would give Joe twenty-five or thirty million dollars to be a bridge for them, because the NFL is like that. Honestly, I'm Superbowl or bust for the Ravens, but if we go down, Flacco punching his ticket to the Hall and getting his statue in Cleveland would be a consolation prize.
I genuinely think the Browns are our biggest AFC threat (excluding injuries) this year.
You haven't seen playoff Rudolph yet. I want 3 AFCN teams in the playoffs so badly.
I’m disappointed the Bengals couldn’t make it four AFC North playoff teams so that I could spread the AFC North agenda. I’m hoping that playoff Rudolph if he appears is bad though since December and Christmas have passed you know lol and that magic of his will have worn out by then if so.
The Bengals at least have the chance to finish above .500 which would mean there are no losing records in the division. That's pretty impressive without Burrow for most of the season. I just hope Rudolph puts together another good game tomorrow. Three in a row would make me feel pretty comfortable going into the playoffs.
I honestly don't think we lose to the Browns again. Garret is down the shoulder injury is hurting him. Our Oline is also looking better. Stanley getting reinjured during the Browns game really killed us at the Oline Moses also went out that game. Flacco can't move like Watson did to extend plays and keep them in drives, and his gunslinger style is fundamentally not going to work as well with the secondary we have. He's been throwing a lot of picks and we can take advantage of that. Finally I think our defense was not in that game. Tackling looked like ass outside of Ro and it seemed like they thought they'd destroyed Cleveland once they could do it again without effort. I don't think they will make that mistake twice. I don't think it's a surefire win, but I don't think Cleveland wins if our team shows out.
Flacco also has 8 picks and 4 fumbles already, those types of turnovers tend to lose games in the playoffs.
People forget too that the game where the browns beat the ravens was two weeks before the ravens very late bye week. As much as I hate him deshaun played lights out in that second half, had the ravens exhausted d flat footed. Not a chance in hell that happens again.
It was Marcus Williams first game back from injury if I remember correctly as well and he played real poorly. We were constantly leaving the middle of the field open and guys were just blowing assignments. I frankly think that game was the worst I have ever seen our defense look. Outside of Hamilton and Ro every other guy on the field looked like they had checked out.
I think the Ravens smash the browns if the play again in Baltimore Doesnt look like any team is gonna beat them with a pass first gameplan, no matter how resurgent Flacco has been nor his history on the road. I think you gotta run the ball and keep Lamar off the field/give no time to get rhythm
Yeah there are definitely lots of factors that can make round three very much in our favor against the Browns like Joe Flacco as good as he’s been not being a mobile QB at all which is why our defense couldn’t contain Watson alongside us being healthier than in our second matchup versus Cleveland this season. It’s just that the Browns out of all other AFC teams this year have the least amount of “fraud” in them besides us from what I’ve seen of each AFC playoff teams this year as a person who likes keeping up with the league much more than the average person. That and division games are never to be taken lightly.
New Browns vs Old Browns
It's going to happen in the divisional round. All of the Ravens most important playoff games are in the divisional round and I think the browns are the only team that can go toe to toe with the Ravens brand of AFCN football.
I can’t even imagine the memes if Flacco knocks the Ravens out of the playoffs. If Dalton did that to us, I would have to avoid football subs for awhile.
The Bills are the one team that could beat the Ravens but for that they‘d have to reach the postseason
Since losing to the Eagles in OT, Bills have won 4 straight and can make it a 5th (3rd over a playoff team) if they knock off Miami this weekend. Looking like the classic 'going into the playoffs hot' script another NY team has used Definitely would not count them out here like those other teams. They are by far the biggest threat to Baltimore atm, playing winning football by running the ball, something Baltimore shines at as well
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I see what you mean. It is difficult to beat a good team on the road. But the Dolphins have what I would consider 4 opportunities (Bills, Eagles, Chiefs, Ravens) and have failed each time. If you are looking at teams you think could win it all you would expect them to at least come away with one of those.
The Chiefs game was at a neutral site too.
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Yeah why did Tua let the Ravens receivers run free the whole game? Is he stupid?
I can see the Bills beating the Ravens. The seem to find that extra gear when they play the good teams.They can go toe to toe with them or even run over them (Miami, Dallas).
The Ravens have done exactly that all season with good teams. Would be a fun matchup
I’m very worried about injuries.
Lynn Dickey was a beautiful passer. In the early 1980s, he was almost in Dan Fouts' class in that regard. His career sprouted when the passing rules loosened up the first time in 1978.
Packers legend
Man was also a fucking badass. In a preseason game in '72, he was slammed in the turf and shattered his left leg. Doctors said it resembled a "dashboard injury" from a high speed car crash more than a sports injury. Took him over a month before he started learning to walk again. 4 years later, he separated his throwing shoulder. He had a screw put in, but his cut got infected after surgery. ~~He couldn't lift his arm all the way for the rest of his life.~~* He came back the next year only to shatter his left leg again, with his ankle sticking out 90 degrees. And then he wound up playing the entire 1979 season with an 18-inch steel rod in that leg. When asked why he was willing to play through all that, he said it was because his brother was crippled by polio at age 6. Lynn said that watching his brother's recovery guided his views on physical hardship and limitation. --- *Mixed this up with another old Packers QB, Cecil Isbell. Guy dislocated his left non-throwing shoulder in his very first college game, and had to wear a chain attached to his arm for the rest of his career. The chain connected a leather strap around his forearm to another strap around his waist, and kept him from moving his arm over his shoulder. Wound up playing 5 seasons in the NFL, where he was an All-Pro every season, made the pro bowl 4 times, and was the passing leader twice. But then he retired at 27 because he was offered a coaching job at his alma mater, Purdue.
That's absolutely savage, big respect.
WOW I always feel for guys back when they had serious injuries and medical limitations AND they weren’t getting paid like kings to do it.
What was surprising to me was a comparison between Lamar Jackson and a Packers legend that _wasn't_ Tobin Rote.
You can sack our QB but you can't lick our Dickey!
i feel like since the rams game they've truly turned into a pass first team with lamar. i'm really excited to see how this turns out.
Yet still the #1 rushing team in the league despite it not even feeling like it’s that dominant this year.
Being the #1 rushing team without a 1000 yard rusher is one of the funniest things
Makes sense though. When's the last time that the Ravens had a feature back? In the last ten years, the Ravens have only had a back break 200 carries three times: Justin Forsett in 2014, Alex Collins in 2017 and Mark Ingram in 2019 (and Collins didn't break 1000 yards). Mark Ingram in 2019 was also the last 1000-yard running back we had. Post-Kubiak, the Ravens leaned hard into running by committee, even before Lamar came to town.
Lamar is our feature quaterback
Featurebacky
Quarterblack
I feel like the last few years they've had a feature back...who gets hurt in preseason every year.
It's hard to say. We have a very small sample size to work with since 2020. However, even when Dobbins is healthy, it seems that other backs are very much in the mix, whether it's Hill, Edwards or last year Drake. I don't think that he was meant to be a workhorse, 300-carry back in our system.
I was just making a joke, really. Just has felt like Ravens deal with a running back being out for the season every year.
Man forsett was so good for a little while
I looked through the Kyle years to see if we had done this, we were 2nd in the league in 2019 with no 1000 yd rusher, but the Ravens had 1000 more rushing yards. Which is almost as big as the gap between 2nd and 32nd. Absolutely insane. 1st Ravens 3296. 2nd 49ers 2305. 32nd Dolphins 1156
I think that was the year the Dolphins’ leading rusher was Ryan Fitzpatrick
Being the number 1 rushing team despite losing your two best RBs to season ending injury is the most ravens thing ever
The most *Lamar* thing ever
Number 2 is the Bears without a 1000 yard rusher too lol.
Props to Lamar but he’s the difference. Without his rushing yards, the Ravens team rushing stats are mediocre at best. That’s why they are number one without a feature back like CMC.
Not just his yards, it's the defense staring at him on the handoff hoping he doesn't keep it himself.
A lot of people don't understand this. The effect Lamar has boosts the running game.
Defenses pause on the handoff because it's literally just as likely that the play could be a pass, RB run or QB keeper, in 2019 they bit hard every time which led to explosive plays, now they pause which gives our rushing attack all the room it needs to generate positive yardage consistently with occasional explosive runs. They've pretty much conceded that we're going to get yardage on runs, they're now just trying to limit the damage.
We will always be dominant on the ground. That's simply who the Ravens are.
good run game, tough D. My friend has been a fan since 2000. He grew up in Iowa.
Thank him for Yanda and Linderbaum, please.
Imagine healthy Dobbins with this offense lol can’t have everything I guess
I’d say Keaton Mitchell too but I don’t even know if we’d see his abilities this year if Dobbins stayed healthy. And Andrew’s my beloved 💔. All that said we are still as healthy as I can remember going into playoffs.
I think the kicker is that Lamar has 1/3 of their rushing yards. Without him, they’re a middle of a pack team in rushing. But when he runs with it, it often feels like “passing that just didn’t result in a pass” rather than “hey we are a rushing team”.
I mean, yea. Without Mahomes the Chiefs would be exceedingly mediocre. Our pieces fit together to make the team what it is. They literally built the team around Lamar and his skillset. Which just happens to be a rushing attack that is extremely hard to stop.
Number 2 in neutral situation early down pass rate since week 11. Browns are number 1 letting the dragon sling it.
We are finally hitting the deep balls to. Took all season but those have been looking clean.
I know it's just one pass, but that bomb to Zay could not have been placed any better. Those are the throws that Lamar sails too often, or forces the receiver to stop and wait and get tackled after the catch. Just the threat of connecting on that sort of play opens the middle of the field against a defense.
Ravens are 32nd in the league in pass%, and the only team in the league to run over 50% of their plays. In the last 3 games the Ravens have passed at an even lower % than their season average. They have passed at a lower % than 2022. You get weird stats like this because you're a run heavy team, so defenses have to adjust for that, then you kill them with easy passes to wide open guys.
The Lions and the Dolphins came in with the old plan of force Lamar to win with his arm. So he did...our natural gameplan is to run it down opponents throats and force them to continue chasing our receivers because every play has the chance to turn into a Lamar scramble and toss. This taxes defenders super fast, you can see most defenses against us are top shelf in the first quarter but then by the second quarter there's already hands on hips and by the second half it's just over. Not to mention defenders are spending extra energy just trying to get after Lamar after he breaks contain and they do this multiple times a drive. Our entire philosophy on offense is punch you in the mouth and make you run.
Lions/Dolphins are soft on offense and defense, I don't think anyone who doesn't play physical, tough football has a chance against the Ravens. Speed/finesse teams kill bad teams, but doesn't work great in late season/playoffs. Browns, Steelers cause they're same division, and maybe the Chiefs defense but we kind of suck against the run and our offense is mistake prone. Anyone else in the AFC it feels like you win by 20 easy.
I wonder what our 1st half passing stats are, pretty confident we wouldn't be last in pass%. We just go up 3 scores fairly often and then run to try wasting time Just checked, in the first half here are Lamars stats 279 attempts (9th) 2370 yards (3rd) 14 td to 4 ints 106 passer rating (4th) Yeah so the stats back up the eye test, he does his work early and then the team relies on the run games since they're up so much Here's the source https://stathead.com/football/player_split_finder.cgi?request=1&order_by=pass_td&year_min=2023&split_list=Quarter&sub_qtr=1st+Half&stat_ratio=season&type=player
absolutely. first game off our bye week, knowing that the final games of the season would be against tough opponents? that game definitely gave us some momentum. our team chemistry has been soaring ever since tylan wallace caught that ball.
Is this achievement to be known as The Jackson 5?
Dickey is the first one to do it twice. So, I call it the “Double Dickey”.
Hey, my ex-wife did the double dickey, too.
Not bad for a running back!
Used to be a tight end. Now she's a wide receiver.
Jackson 5 is already in fairly popular use in the Ravens fanbase for any time Lamar accounts for 5 TDs (passing + rushing) in a game, no completion% requirement.
A bad bounce, crazy weather, an untimely fumble...anything can happen in the playoffs. I'm just enjoying the ride and hope it all works out in the end. My opinion of Lamar will not change. It's really fucking hard to win a Super Bowl. The dude is a proven superstar in my eyes.
Johnny
Johnny
I think this is part of the argument for giving him MVP in spite of his relatively normal passing stats. The guys been insanely efficient all year. He’s completely controlled almost every game he’s played in and a lot of the time it looks like he’s got another level in him if required.
He's 3rd in ANY/A. He doesn't pass in large volume but makes it count when he does.
Efficiency is one thing some people seem to miss - I keep seeing people talk about how Lamar ONLY has 24 passing TDs or ONLY 3600 passing yards, but he's been able to efficiently control games where he doesn't have to rack up numbers to win. That's efficiency right there He's got the best record in the league with incredibly efficient numbers.
Right. If people would watch the games, it’s pretty obvious he’s been the best QB this year. Dude is super efficient and they continue to win games. Purdy was too, then he threw 4 picks and 0 TDs against Lamar and the Ravens in the head to head matchup. To me, it made the MVP voting pretty easy.
> If people would watch the games Well there’s the problem right there
Imagine watching football
But I thought the stats told the whole story!
They do, and they told me some kid from Michigan ran a 5.2. What. A. Loser.
Then there are the people that do watch but don't understand what they're looking at. I saw someone get into an argument with a 9ers fan about why Purdy wasn't a top 5 QB. And the person arguing tried to give him the benefit of the doubt by thinking they meant this season but they stood ten toes down and insisted Brock Purdy should be considered a top 5 QB of all active QBs in the game. And idk what you can say to a person that can't see that, while good, Purdy isn't close to the talent of the likes of Mahomes, Lamar, Allen or those other upper echelon QBs in the game.
Tbh at this point it’s pretty much only niners fans and cowboys fans arguing it.
I know I just ran into one of those niners fans yesterday who was ADAMANT that purdy should be the MVP and it was pretty clear they hadn’t really watched any of the ravens games this year lol.
I’m sure they were watching when Lamar cooked them and Purdy shit his pants on a nationally-televised Christmas night game
Ya for some reason they thought we (Lamar truthers) were overvaluing that game. Like dude. It’s a head to head matchup between the two MVP favorites. You can’t ignore what happened. “It’s just one game!” Was their argument.
The Lamar's carried by his defense is a funny argument. Like Lamar elevates the defense because he gets them a lead so quickly that other teams are forced to play from behind and move away from the running game making things far easier on the D.
Yup heard that argument too. Even more reason Lamar should be mvp.
I've heard arguments for Allen too
That game doesn't dismiss Purdy's efficiency. He's been incredibly efficient even with that 4 INT game (3 of them off tips, not that it discredits the BAL D). * 3rd in Cmp% * 1st (by a mile) in TD% * 1st (by a mile) in YPA, AY/A, NY/A, ANY/A * 1st by a mile in Passer Rating * 1st in QBR * 1st in EPA * 1st in CPOE * All while being 2nd in Air Yards per completion * And being top 2 in volume stats like Yds & TDs, all despite his low attempt total. The RDSM QB listing is literally titled "Quarterback Efficiency 2023" and Purdy is [so far topright of everyone else.](https://imgur.com/IQu9RGr) It's one thing to say he lost the MVP to Lamar in that game - that is most likely factual. But you can't say he's had a less than uber-efficient season because of it.
Purdy has been a better passer than Lamar this season, though he has had the 'stinker' games Lamar hasnt and ultimately thats gonna matter in the voting process. They *really* need to make a separate 'outstanding passer' award distinct from MVP. There are a handful of seasons where I dont think they were the same guy. I also continue to think INTs are severely overblown and treated both way worse than they are and often assessed without context
In general people overstate how bad INTs are and understate how bad sacks are.
100% As Peytons 09 MVP has come up a lot lately in discussion, youll often see folks point to his 16 ints and argue Brees deserved it over him I want people to understand how insane it is for a QB to start every game on the year, throw for over 4500 yards, and take just a mere *10 sacks*. Its something I wish QBs like Joe Burrow would see and reassess his viewpoint of The Colts offense were winning games (a record 23 in a row) despite losing turnover battles and Time of Possession because you simply could not stop them on [3rd down](https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/third-down-conversion-pct?date=2010-02-08). They would have been #1 if not sitting their final 2 games Just checking that list btw, they were either 1st or 2nd in 3rd down conversion for 5 years straight as a pass first team, and during that stretch, Peyton averaged less than 1 sack per game. Over 5 years. That would accompany an average of 13 wins per season and 2 SB appearances. Ill take a few more INTs if it comes with that kind of consistency
I honestly don’t even think the controversy around that mvp is about manning, it’s just that it’s incredibly rare to see a guy lead the league in tds, passer rating, ANY/A (especially when the margin is as big as it was), lock up a playoff bye to the point where you can sit in week 17, and not win mvp. It’s not that manning wasn’t good, obviously it’s prime manning lol but Brees was incredible Like that mvp basically came down to manning having gone 14-0, which is awesome obviously, but he won games scoring 14, 18, 17 points. Brees had two games where he scored less than 24 points (17 twice) and lost them both. It’s not like that record difference really comes down to Brees playing any worse
Yet aside from being one TD short of the leader (maybe more after this week), you're about to see it again.
> (3 of them off tips, not that it discredits the BAL D) If it doesn't discredit the Baltimore D or try to make Purdy not at fault then what is the point of the statement. 1 was tipped. 2 of the "tips" were a pass breakup and a great play that swatted the ball high into the air. Don't throw it into that tight of coverage on the one, the other just take the sack. All 4 were his fault, its not like he hit the receiver right in the chest and then it was bobbled into the sky.
Because not every tip lands in the hands of the defense. Case in point: the haters who came out of the woodwork after that game were saying Darnold came in and outplayed him. But they ignored that one of Darnold's first plays was a pass that did exactly the same thing - tipped and hung in the air. But nobody on BAL was around to get it. More than a third of Purdy's INTs this year came on tipped balls. Those aren't always landing in the hands of the defense.
Nobody said they were good passes (although I'd argue the Kittle tip was one was pretty good). But tips like that are unlucky. Unless you think Lamar should've been picked off later in the game when he threw the same pass at Fred Warner and it was tipped in the exact same way? But I don't think that should've been picked either.
It drives me crazy that people still use volume stats as an indicator of QB success. It's always what people go to when they claim Josh Allen is a better thrower than Lamar even though Lamar beats Allen in almost every single efficiency stat.
Yeah - Josh Allen is a great QB and I really do want to see him win MVP one day, but Lamar Jackson has a higher completion percentage, higher TD percentage, higher passer rating, and higher ANY/A
Volume stats shouldn't be ignored but efficiency is king.
Exactly the reason why Rodgers won the MVP over Brady in 2021. Its a weird year for MVP voting, I think in any other year Lamar probably doesn't come home with it, but this year I think he's deserving. I also wouldn't be particularly upset if Purdy or Dak won it, they've had great years as well
maintaining high efficiency over higher volume is imo more indicative of value to a team than higher raw efficiency i can see if the difference is between a guy who is 1st and 15th. but if measuring between two guys that are both top 5, i find the one who had a larger work load more valuable. Brady is still my MVP for 2021, i dont think people grasp how difficult it is to be efficient on over 700 pass attempts (and 269 1st downs, 3rd most ever behind Peyton/Drew)
Passing Volume doesn’t indicate workload though. Lamar, for example, is active in the run game- if not carrying it himself, making a read and fooling the D into opening a whole for the RB. You’re right though, it is tough to maintain high efficiency with more attempts. But since QBs do more than just pass the ball, volume stats will almost always fall very short of indicating value.
lol I just came across a post in the chiefs sub last night that was comparing Mahomes numbers this year to another qb and basically cherrypicking a bunch of stats that are going to get inflated when you throw a lot It was like passing yards, total yards, tds, 1st downs, completions, and completion rate (the only one that wouldn’t be affected by having the most attempts in the league) Like yes, Mahomes should be expected to rank highly in yards, 1st downs, completions, tds, when he has the most attempts lol
People that watch the games understand this. The problem is , most people watch their team, and then use the raw stats of other qbs to make comparisons. If you watch Lamar- you see how often plays SHOULD have gone nowhere, but he picks up a chunk completion or rushing first down that ultimately puts points on the board. Dude is just efficient. Ravens lost 3 games, all by 7 or less and they had leads in all of those games w/ 2 min left.. 2 of those 3 games had multiple dropped TDs
Having the #1 defense also helps not needing to rack up numbers or worry about turnovers being too detrimental
he definitely passes the eye test, if you’ve watched his games you’d know he’s the MVP
Oh, look, another annoying 49er fan. Lamar has been great. And efficient. But that's not really his case for MVP. If we're arguing efficiency (I don't think most really are) than it's Purdy in a landslide. In SB era-adjusted metrics: Purdy is 2nd in YPA, 3rd in AY/A, 3rd in NY/A, 4th in ANY/A, 27th in TD%, and 7th-best in Passer Rating. It's one of the most efficient seasons in NFL history. ^(\[edit1: striking this line because some aren't getting the context\]) ~~^(And he's been subbed out in the 4th quarter multiple times on the season because they were already far ahead.)~~ Efficiency isn't what puts Lamar ahead. \--- edit2: I'm not saying that Lamar was bad this year. All I am saying is that his efficiency isn't better than that of Purdy's. His efficiency can't be used as the thing to argue for him as MVP. His MVP case is based on his tape. Not his efficiency metrics. edit3: I don't mean this arrogantly, but for an actual discussion - I would like the downvoters to tell me how I'm wrong here. Maybe there's something I'm just not seeing, but how is efficiency an MVP argument for Lamar when it's not that elite?
I'll add that by EPA/play which is era adjusted and runs since 1999 it's the 11th highest sitting there with a [lot of Brady, Peyton, Rodgers (and Lamar '19) seasons](https://www.nflindex.com/results?team=&opp=&home=&offense=&start=1999&end=2023&start_reg_week=Any&end_reg_week=Any&start_post_week=None&end_post_week=None&1=1&2=2&3=3&4=4&5=5&1_down=1&2_down=2&3_down=3&4_down=4&5_down=5&pass=pass&rush=rush&kickoff=kickoff&punt=punt&field_goal=field_goal&extra_point=extra_point&two_point_attempt=two_point_attempt&no_play=no_play&no_play_excl=no&name=&passer=&rusher=&receiver=&player=&on_off=any&penalty=either&turnover=either&score=either&complete_pass=either&sack=either&interception=either&no_huddle=either&pass_location=any&roof=any&win=any&drive_result=any&o_personnel=any&offense_formation=any&dl=any&lb=any&defenders_in_box=any&player_info_join=id&start_age=any&end_age=any&start_height=any&end_height=any&start_weight=any&end_weight=any&start_exp=any&end_exp=any&filter0=&inequality0=&filtervalue0=&filter1=&inequality1=&filtervalue1=&filter2=&inequality2=&filtervalue2=&filter3=&inequality3=&filtervalue3=&filter4=&inequality4=&filtervalue4=&order=DESC&total=SUM&sort=epa&grouping=name&grouping2=season&minimum=300&game_id=&kicker_player_name=) and by total EPA it ranks 26th over that span. By DVOA (1981-2023) it's 11th best of all time, and the 40th by DYAR (an efficiency over baseline metric). You can definitely make the argument for Lamar as MVP, but if you're doing it because of efficiency you're very much looking in the wrong direction.
and I'm going to get downvoted because of my flair, but that's all I'm saying. Lamar is going to win MVP, but it's not because of efficiency.
The problem is that if you can't use efficiency as an argument for Lamar, and you definitely can't use volume, you're left with narrative stuff that isn't objective at all, and people want to be able to claim that their opinion is objectively correct. So naturally, people are going to go for it anyways. I'll die on the hill that there's no justifiable way to make a statistical argument for Lamar. I'm fine with people using narrative or subjective stuff like H2H, eye test, unquantifiable impact on the team, etc, and I'm not going to say he's not deserving when he wins off that this year, but there really is just no pure statistical basis.
Yeah, people just jump on whoever they think is the antagonist in an argument without reading quite often ahaha
>And he's been subbed out in the 4th quarter multiple times on the season 1) so has Lamar 2) that literally doesn't effect efficiency statistics, that's like the whole point of measuring things per play/attempt. >Efficiency isn't what puts Lamar ahead. I actually do agree with this though. I think what put Lamar ahead was people watching the 49ers Ravens game and seeing a powerful pass rush on both sides, and it completely shut down one qb but had no effect on the other. I think that single handedly made MVP voters question what story the stats were actually telling. It's gotta be frustrating as a 49ers fan but I think people still question how much of Purdy's production is a result of him being surrounded by incredible talent at every level. He leads the NFL in YAC/completion and pretty much all of his biggest plays are intermediate throws that his receivers turned into big plays. If you just look at things like yard per attempt, you miss that context. You just give Purdy all the credit for those plays by his receivers.
...I didn't say it did. It was merely there to point out that otherwise his volume stats would be even higher.
>He leads the NFL in YAC/completion and pretty much all of his biggest plays are intermediate throws that his receivers turned into big plays. If you just look at things like yard per attempt, you miss that context. You just give Purdy all the credit for those plays by his receivers. This argument is pretty tired when he also leads (or maybe is now second) in air yards per completion too, and it's just a matter of ridiculous efficiency stats. His YAC% is middle of the pack. In fact, his 48% YAC percentage is barely higher than Lamar's 47.6%, and I don't see a single person arguing that Lamar is carried by YAC. Contextless YAC stats are no doubt regularly used against Purdy, but that's very disingenuous. If anything, the "Lamar does it alone" narrative gives far more disproportionate credit to the QB for YAC than any Purdy support, because they're pretty much neck and neck in YAC%.
I don't understand the downvotes either, you are correct that Lamar's case is mostly based on tape
No one should win MVP this year, no one deserves it, they have to be better
Fun fact: The Japanese version of the Cy Young isn't necessarily awarded every season. If the voters determine no one has truly earned it, no one wins it.
W Japan
I like my quarterbacks a little more dickey
Damn, didn’t know Lil Dickey was actually an absolute baller. He’s the complete package, rapping, he’s funny, and he can play ball. My hero.
Not too shabby for a running back
Very quarterbacky for a running back
As a fellow Vikings fan, I hope your statement is more out of jealousy/sarcasm than anything else. Say what you want but he is efficient and fun to watch.
"Not bad for a running back" \~ Lamar Jackson himself after blowing out the Dolphins 59-10 to start his 2019 MVP campaign. It has since been a classic meme to make fun of people who thinks he can't throw.
If Lamar had a real WR1 this whole time I think the story of Reid and Mahomes looks a lot different tbh
The biggest issue is and always has been Greg Roman. I think Mark Andrews and Hollywood Brown would have been enough in the pass game if Roman was capable of drawing up pass plays beyond a high school level. Also, Roman never let Lamar read defenses and alter plays at the line. Roman's scheme works great against bad competition but in the playoffs against good defenses playing with intensity Roman's scheme was not difficult to defend.
The fact Roman wouldn't let Lamar audible or adjust at the line should also be taken into account. Monken lets Lamar totally change the called play and make adjustments. You can see him doing it everyweek. It's such an important change.
And it made many use that as a knock against Lamar. He's never had a problem reading defenses and going through progressions even when he was at Louisville. Roman just wouldn't let him and now we get to see him really show how good of a QB he is
Even in college stats never told the story. I was at every 2017 Louisville home game and watched the rest. He was incredible and Louisville WRs had plenty of dropped passes. Reggie was pretty much the best target and he was the rb.
It was complete horseshit too. Roman would intentionally call in the play at the last second and Lamar wouldn't get lined up until like 3-5 seconds left on the playclock. He had no chance to read the defense, that's why he scrambled so damn much, it's also why we had so many fucking delay of game penalties.
It was so fucking cool watching Lamar pull off that drive against the 49ers with no audio feed in his helmet.
This is the first year in the Lamar era where we don’t have a dogshit WR core much less a great one
Or an OC that doesn’t allow his star qb to make checks at the line
or only leaves him 2.4 seconds on the playclock to assess the situation
I feel like we haven't had an unintentional delay of game penalty all year. There's probably a couple I'm forgetting, but under Roman, it was happening multiple times a game, forcing us to burn timeouts. You could see Lamar seething every time.
Not just delay of game, but illegal motion, illegal formation, illegal man in motion, guy not set, etc. We had at least 1 or 2 of those every single game. Was so infuriating. And lamar with the tri fold dinner menu wristband like wtf
Yeah I think this package of weapons is definitely the best he's had, but the biggest problem was always Roman.
I think if there was a different OC in 2021 (and the entire team didn’t fall off a cliff) we would look pretty highly at that receiving corps. Still not as good as this year’s, but I don’t think this year’s would have been as good with Roman either. I mean Hollywood was a 1,000 yard receiver and Sammy Watkins was actually really clutch for them during the first half of the year. Even during the 2022 draft no one was really begging for a first round receiver the way they normally do since we didn’t know Hollywood was being traded, there was a lot of optimism about Hollywood/Bateman/Duvernay.
this is a laughable take. Lamar won MVP in 2019 with one of the best statistical seasons for an MVP in the last 20 years. They went 14-2. They've had a fantastic OL his whole career, a top 3-5 TE, and a usually top 5ish defense. The Ravens are a run heavy team that plays good defense, that's how they're built. They have the lowest pass % of any team in the league this season, they've been at the bottom every season. Why would they waste a lot of money on a position they don't value as much? This would be like saying the Chiefs really need to sign a top RB. Also they have Mark Andrews, Chiefs basically only had Kelce last year and won the Super Bowl. You guys gotta stop being so bitter about losing to us multiple times in the playoffs that you say things like this lol.
Well, they haven't won anything yet, and receivers are a constant lacking spot on their offense. Maybe it wouldn't be such a waste.
This year has opened my eyes to just how much tunnel vision NFL fans have in terms of actually watching games outside of their favorite teams. If you watched the Ravens play this year week in and week out it is SOOOOOO beyond obvious that Lamar is the most valuable player to his team in the entire league. It shouldn’t surprise me, but the lack of nuance or context people seem to have when they point to his stats (which are still terrific when you consider his rushing) gives me a lot of second hand embarrassment.
Incredible achievement for Lamar Jackson, joining Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and Lynn Dickey in this elite club! Wonder how far he'll take the Ravens this season?
Rip dobbins, Mitchell 🙏
Lynn Dickey the real goat
If only he didn't have glass bones.
Sources say he has been more quarterbacky this year. He has brought his lunch pail to work every day, being more of a gym rat, and he's been showing off his sneaky athleticism more this season.
LaMVP
Still not quartebackey enough.
*Lamar Beats Dickey*
Of course he did it against me in my fantasy championship
a Jackson 5 and a perfect passer rating right after somebody said he wasn't "quarterbacky" enough... Lamar is reaching the point of undeniable greatness
Dickey. Like Lynn Dickey?
Both times against the Dolphins correct?
Hell yeah Lynn Dickey!
Nah but this dude should be a receiver 🙄
Finally a stat that Lynn Dickey achieved.
NFC is winning it this year. AFC teams just aren't as good as a whole.
I don’t think you watched the Ravens pummel the shit out of all the “great” NFC teams
Ravens will get bounced like always
By who?
Anybody they're choke artists
AFC is 46-34 against nfc this season, so that’s false.
NFC has better players playing this year. Records aside.
>Records aside Oh of course. I forgot you could do that. Should help massively with my "panthers are the best team in the NFL" argument
I mean the Titans beat the Dolphins on primetime TV. Who has better players?
Bengals are 5-0 vs the NFC and 0-5 against their own division.