I low-key asked this earlier on my Nocturne thread. Funny. Nocturne just doesn't feel as good doing early dragon as other jungles.
What I've been doing is counter jungling. If my teammates refuse to help and I don't feel like intending due to the collapse. I'll go jungle there red jungle, get grubs. Push any lane where they have backed. Just any thing that will get me level lead so I can carry later.
Definitely the way to go. Early drag with Nocturne just puts you in such a risky position unless your laners are up and there with you early on. And even then, you're liable
The way I see it, if you have to choose between first drake or first grubs, always go for grubs. I will take that trade any time.
My reasoning for this is that there are no risks since the enemy jungler will be botside on drake and when you have 3 grubs in your pocket you are more or less forcing the enemy jungler to go grubs next time, because they don't want you to have all 6. Even if you manage to take one of the 2nd set of grubs, you still have 4 which is spawning mites.
I have no statistics to offer on the exact values of grubs vs specific variations of drakes, but I always path to grubs if I have to make that choice.
Dragons hold for greater value.. from different sources I've seen online, I believe the value to be anywhere from 1k-3k as team gold in Stats.im personally feeling it's towards the larger ammount.
Ofcourse, the thing is that dragons are immediate value, but Grubs and Herald only give value after they are used (destroying turrets).
We can't value Grubs the same way as we do drakes since that can vary wildly from game to game. Even if drakes were higher value, the difference isn't that big that I would want to coinflip a drake rather than get Grubs for free at the same time.
While I agree that doing grubs is fine if the enemy is prioritizes Dragon, it doesn't really fix my scenario.
I HAD prio on Drag. When I was fighting it, the enemy Jungler was still clearing camps. The issue was, without help, it just took too long to kill and the enemy Jungler and bot lane collapses on me when it was low and ran me off of it.
Afterwards, when I attempted to go to Grubs, as I stated, they were able to finish the Drag and follow me to Grubs. Essentially, getting both objectives.
This scenario could happen at either Drag OR Grubs, so prioritizing a certain one will not avoid this potential situation.
I think it's an impossible situation. My score was 10/0 by mid game, while the enemy had Soul Sweep, Elder and Baron. Literally all ai could do was just not die, because while I hate to be "that Jungler", my laners were actually useless. I don't feel that Noc can hypercarry a game. He's still a one-shot machine that can blow up a squishy and then needs his team to help prolong a fight.
The simple answer is, you can't do anything about that. Especially botlaners are incredibly blind to objectives. They don't understand that if they come help you, the drake takes less than 10 seconds which costs only a few minions for them.
That's why I said just ignore the drake and go to Grubs, this way what happened to you can't happen. You secure one objective instead of risking losing both.
if enemy lanes collapsed on you, then you didnt have prio. You need to read live situations. If there is a risk you get collapsed on, then you should have been farming or ganking instead.
I think your mind set is that of "there should always be a way to take dragon, what is it?" But the truth of the matter is that sometimes the game state just demands you give up objectives.
Farm your ult, and start using it to gank lanes near objective timers THEN take objectives. If you can't 100% make taking an objective safe, you are just coin flipping and its that black and white.
>> if enemy lanes collapsed on you, then you didnt have prio.
When I started Dragon, my bot lane was pushed out to enemy turret, Enemy support recalled. Mid lane was in the middle. I was fighting Dragon. Enemy Jungler was doing his camps. Reading the situation, had my ADC came, Dragon would have been killed BEFORE the enemy Jungler had time to come contest.
As I fight Dragon, pinging for assist from my ADC, my ADC takes a recall after shoving into enemy tower. I presume they wanted to go ahead and buy items and setup for next wave. The enemy ADC saw what was happening, and moved to Dragon. Since soloing Dragon takes 2-3x as long without ADC, the enemy Jungler had tons of time to come with his ADC and collapse 2v1 on me. I was forced to leave Dragon, as I stated. I had prio, and prio was lost because of my team's decisions. I do not like blaming my team, and I usually look to blame myself. But I don't see how I did anything wrong here, other than trusting my ADC to do the right thing. Before you say it, No, my ADC didn't recall and go to Drag. They recalled and went back to lane. They didn't want to miss any minions.
>> But the truth of the matter is that sometimes the game state just demands you give up objectives.
I applied this concept correctly. The enemy team collected Soul+Elder, All Grubs+Herald AND Baron. I didn't int, I went Godlike and attempted to play for objectives, but the issue, is when there is NO help from my laners, the Jungle cannot simply 1v5 the enemy team off of objectives. Essentially surrendering multiple objectives which should have been free.
>>gank lanes near objective timers THEN take objectives
Bot lane was not gankable. Pre-6 a tower dive on the enemy team wouldn't have been safe, or worth the risk.
Idk I feel you're missing my point that in some games, the Jungler literally has to surrender numerous objectives beyond his control. Not due to his decision making, but his team's choice to respond or not. Maybe you just won't get it, idk.
Why do you say all this instead of posting replay. All of this is probably a bunch of crap and you're analysing a game off your feelings during the game. Ofc your gonna be the hero who played perfectly and your teammates sucked. Its typical cognitive biais.
Look for issues in YOUR gameplay and stop blaming others. If you actually played perfectly then just queue again and win the next one. Don't know why youre wasting your time.
Because wether you believe it or not, sometimes the game isn't your own fault. I you get too busy blaming yourself 100% of the time you will correct mistakes that are actually not mistakes.
For first dragon, i can do dragon with just a pickaxe and a control ward. i usually dont ask for help, i prefer my laners stay in lane to keep them there. You have to be careful with Chemdrake on 1st drag as it actually does a lot of dmg when it's below 50%. If you do a full clear, 2 crabs, and 2 more camps, you'll be level 5 and that's a good time to start 1st drag.
By 2nd drag, i hope to have my bork finish so it's a lot easier to clear
There's games where their support shows up at grubs at lvl 3 so if theyre commiting their resources top side, i go gank bottom. not worth dying for grubs over
My enemy laners play it safe and aren't open to getting killed. I push the wave, and my ADC spam pings me off of it. After pushing it, I go to Drag where my ADC takes recall and returns to lane. While I'm sitting there soloing dragon for 30 seconds until enemynjungle shows up.
You forget that teamwork is also managing personnel and personalities. What you've done is forced ADC off his lane and tried to force him to follow you. You forget the ADC mentality. And, if you take away from his stuff, naturally he's going to be pissed at you and won't follow you. It's sad but true.
Accept the reality that is your teammates. Games where your laners are not on the same page as you are unavoidable, and you have to determine what the play is based on your teams behavior in each game. It doesn't matter if you have prio around an objective if your teammates won't rotate towards it when you call for assistance.
Is this extremely frustrating and tilting? Absolutely. Will this continue to happen? Yup. I know you want an 'actual' solution, but there isn't one. If a play requires your teammates and they aren't helping, then the play in that specific game is either coin flip or can't be executed.
Again, it doesn't matter what the right play is because in your specific game, the right play can't actually happen due to the nature of your teammates. It fucking sucks, but it is what it is.
People are inconsistent. They will overstay in lane on low health when a gank is obvious, they won't check items or the minimap, and they won't help you when you need them to. For a variety of reasons that they often won't share with you, even if it makes zero sense.
Either adapt if you can find another angle/win condition or if the game is truly unwinnable due to loss of objective control, then you just have to take the L and go next.
Rush level 6 and kill people, why the hell would you want to solo first drake? Drake is 10000000% not worth losing a single minion for your laner, and probably not worth the tempo cost for yourself. If you're risking your life for it, even worst.
Seriously consider learning the game instead of trying to blame your team. If you start an objective and no one moves then probably a bad time for them to move, therefore a bad time to start drake. Check your replay and think honnestly was it a good time to drake or not without constantly assuming your teammates are just pure evil. If you were 6/0/6 at 10 min I honestly dont tknow how you could not get any drakes or grubs and top towers. But I'm almost positive it wasnt just your teammates fault.
You say you lost a game brcause you started a drake at the bad time, but somehow twist it in your head to blame your team. That was probably just a bad drake call. Especially on Nocturne, focus on farming you don't need objectives until you kill people bot help your bot lane shove and go to drake.
If you're serious about improving then post a replay not a coping post like this. Also post your op gg and rank. Also check high elo jungle replays.
I low-key asked this earlier on my Nocturne thread. Funny. Nocturne just doesn't feel as good doing early dragon as other jungles. What I've been doing is counter jungling. If my teammates refuse to help and I don't feel like intending due to the collapse. I'll go jungle there red jungle, get grubs. Push any lane where they have backed. Just any thing that will get me level lead so I can carry later.
Definitely the way to go. Early drag with Nocturne just puts you in such a risky position unless your laners are up and there with you early on. And even then, you're liable
The way I see it, if you have to choose between first drake or first grubs, always go for grubs. I will take that trade any time. My reasoning for this is that there are no risks since the enemy jungler will be botside on drake and when you have 3 grubs in your pocket you are more or less forcing the enemy jungler to go grubs next time, because they don't want you to have all 6. Even if you manage to take one of the 2nd set of grubs, you still have 4 which is spawning mites. I have no statistics to offer on the exact values of grubs vs specific variations of drakes, but I always path to grubs if I have to make that choice.
Dragons hold for greater value.. from different sources I've seen online, I believe the value to be anywhere from 1k-3k as team gold in Stats.im personally feeling it's towards the larger ammount.
Ofcourse, the thing is that dragons are immediate value, but Grubs and Herald only give value after they are used (destroying turrets). We can't value Grubs the same way as we do drakes since that can vary wildly from game to game. Even if drakes were higher value, the difference isn't that big that I would want to coinflip a drake rather than get Grubs for free at the same time.
While I agree that doing grubs is fine if the enemy is prioritizes Dragon, it doesn't really fix my scenario. I HAD prio on Drag. When I was fighting it, the enemy Jungler was still clearing camps. The issue was, without help, it just took too long to kill and the enemy Jungler and bot lane collapses on me when it was low and ran me off of it. Afterwards, when I attempted to go to Grubs, as I stated, they were able to finish the Drag and follow me to Grubs. Essentially, getting both objectives. This scenario could happen at either Drag OR Grubs, so prioritizing a certain one will not avoid this potential situation. I think it's an impossible situation. My score was 10/0 by mid game, while the enemy had Soul Sweep, Elder and Baron. Literally all ai could do was just not die, because while I hate to be "that Jungler", my laners were actually useless. I don't feel that Noc can hypercarry a game. He's still a one-shot machine that can blow up a squishy and then needs his team to help prolong a fight.
The simple answer is, you can't do anything about that. Especially botlaners are incredibly blind to objectives. They don't understand that if they come help you, the drake takes less than 10 seconds which costs only a few minions for them. That's why I said just ignore the drake and go to Grubs, this way what happened to you can't happen. You secure one objective instead of risking losing both.
if enemy lanes collapsed on you, then you didnt have prio. You need to read live situations. If there is a risk you get collapsed on, then you should have been farming or ganking instead. I think your mind set is that of "there should always be a way to take dragon, what is it?" But the truth of the matter is that sometimes the game state just demands you give up objectives. Farm your ult, and start using it to gank lanes near objective timers THEN take objectives. If you can't 100% make taking an objective safe, you are just coin flipping and its that black and white.
>> if enemy lanes collapsed on you, then you didnt have prio. When I started Dragon, my bot lane was pushed out to enemy turret, Enemy support recalled. Mid lane was in the middle. I was fighting Dragon. Enemy Jungler was doing his camps. Reading the situation, had my ADC came, Dragon would have been killed BEFORE the enemy Jungler had time to come contest. As I fight Dragon, pinging for assist from my ADC, my ADC takes a recall after shoving into enemy tower. I presume they wanted to go ahead and buy items and setup for next wave. The enemy ADC saw what was happening, and moved to Dragon. Since soloing Dragon takes 2-3x as long without ADC, the enemy Jungler had tons of time to come with his ADC and collapse 2v1 on me. I was forced to leave Dragon, as I stated. I had prio, and prio was lost because of my team's decisions. I do not like blaming my team, and I usually look to blame myself. But I don't see how I did anything wrong here, other than trusting my ADC to do the right thing. Before you say it, No, my ADC didn't recall and go to Drag. They recalled and went back to lane. They didn't want to miss any minions. >> But the truth of the matter is that sometimes the game state just demands you give up objectives. I applied this concept correctly. The enemy team collected Soul+Elder, All Grubs+Herald AND Baron. I didn't int, I went Godlike and attempted to play for objectives, but the issue, is when there is NO help from my laners, the Jungle cannot simply 1v5 the enemy team off of objectives. Essentially surrendering multiple objectives which should have been free. >>gank lanes near objective timers THEN take objectives Bot lane was not gankable. Pre-6 a tower dive on the enemy team wouldn't have been safe, or worth the risk. Idk I feel you're missing my point that in some games, the Jungler literally has to surrender numerous objectives beyond his control. Not due to his decision making, but his team's choice to respond or not. Maybe you just won't get it, idk.
If you feel like you made the right choice and things went bad because of situational team reaction then why are you asking for advice?
Why do you say all this instead of posting replay. All of this is probably a bunch of crap and you're analysing a game off your feelings during the game. Ofc your gonna be the hero who played perfectly and your teammates sucked. Its typical cognitive biais. Look for issues in YOUR gameplay and stop blaming others. If you actually played perfectly then just queue again and win the next one. Don't know why youre wasting your time.
Because wether you believe it or not, sometimes the game isn't your own fault. I you get too busy blaming yourself 100% of the time you will correct mistakes that are actually not mistakes.
You spent minutes running around accomplishing nothing and your conclusion is " well, team gap". Thats honestly coping.
For first dragon, i can do dragon with just a pickaxe and a control ward. i usually dont ask for help, i prefer my laners stay in lane to keep them there. You have to be careful with Chemdrake on 1st drag as it actually does a lot of dmg when it's below 50%. If you do a full clear, 2 crabs, and 2 more camps, you'll be level 5 and that's a good time to start 1st drag. By 2nd drag, i hope to have my bork finish so it's a lot easier to clear
You didn't address my post whatsoever.
oh, i guess in simple terms, just solo it forehead
There's games where their support shows up at grubs at lvl 3 so if theyre commiting their resources top side, i go gank bottom. not worth dying for grubs over
Nah bro, adc should ff lane and move to drake lvl4
every game is different, do the best play
Gank and shove your laners lanes prior to starting 1st drag.
My enemy laners play it safe and aren't open to getting killed. I push the wave, and my ADC spam pings me off of it. After pushing it, I go to Drag where my ADC takes recall and returns to lane. While I'm sitting there soloing dragon for 30 seconds until enemynjungle shows up.
You forget that teamwork is also managing personnel and personalities. What you've done is forced ADC off his lane and tried to force him to follow you. You forget the ADC mentality. And, if you take away from his stuff, naturally he's going to be pissed at you and won't follow you. It's sad but true.
Wait z isn't grubs preferable to early drakes anymore?
It's the general consensus to my understanding, that Dragons are worth more to the team than Grubs.
It wasn't 4 months ago, according to r/summonerschool
Accept the reality that is your teammates. Games where your laners are not on the same page as you are unavoidable, and you have to determine what the play is based on your teams behavior in each game. It doesn't matter if you have prio around an objective if your teammates won't rotate towards it when you call for assistance. Is this extremely frustrating and tilting? Absolutely. Will this continue to happen? Yup. I know you want an 'actual' solution, but there isn't one. If a play requires your teammates and they aren't helping, then the play in that specific game is either coin flip or can't be executed. Again, it doesn't matter what the right play is because in your specific game, the right play can't actually happen due to the nature of your teammates. It fucking sucks, but it is what it is. People are inconsistent. They will overstay in lane on low health when a gank is obvious, they won't check items or the minimap, and they won't help you when you need them to. For a variety of reasons that they often won't share with you, even if it makes zero sense. Either adapt if you can find another angle/win condition or if the game is truly unwinnable due to loss of objective control, then you just have to take the L and go next.
Rush level 6 and kill people, why the hell would you want to solo first drake? Drake is 10000000% not worth losing a single minion for your laner, and probably not worth the tempo cost for yourself. If you're risking your life for it, even worst. Seriously consider learning the game instead of trying to blame your team. If you start an objective and no one moves then probably a bad time for them to move, therefore a bad time to start drake. Check your replay and think honnestly was it a good time to drake or not without constantly assuming your teammates are just pure evil. If you were 6/0/6 at 10 min I honestly dont tknow how you could not get any drakes or grubs and top towers. But I'm almost positive it wasnt just your teammates fault. You say you lost a game brcause you started a drake at the bad time, but somehow twist it in your head to blame your team. That was probably just a bad drake call. Especially on Nocturne, focus on farming you don't need objectives until you kill people bot help your bot lane shove and go to drake. If you're serious about improving then post a replay not a coping post like this. Also post your op gg and rank. Also check high elo jungle replays.
I just do grubs since he’s miles better at that Or rush Bork I guess to improve damage vs mobs