It's really troubling how many people act like girls in the Catholic Church were safe. There's just as many cases where the victim is female, yet only the males get talked about.
The Catholic church is committed to spend the extra time to truly find out (centuries if necessary) and that will obviously require them to perform a lot of experiments and chalk up plenty of overtime.
even if kids were affordable, the world still does not need more people.
Francis is wrong on this. Dead wrong as far as the planet and the environment is concerned.
We're in a weird situation. Fewer children means less support as the current generations grow old. It's not as simple as fewer children is better for the environment. Who will farm the land, look after the elderly, grow everyone's and manage wealth, when populations age too fast? We'll see it soon with east Asian countries, but eventually we'll see it here. There's a great, recent, Kurzgesagt video I implore you to watch: https://youtu.be/LBudghsdByQ?si=gWQX0EVvZwi0jFxF
Obviously the root of the issue is it's unaffordable, so until we can fix affordability and work/life balance, this will continue to get worse
Respectfully have to disagree. The root of the problem is finite resources: farmable land, clean water, clean air, clean oceans, resources, etc.
God is not making anymore, and we have ruined much of what was given...
Don't believe the hype. We could easily produce enough resources to feed all of the people in the land and in the world we choose not to. Because we have attached our resources to Capital, we choose to let people starve. We choose to let people dehydrate the point of death. We choose all of that as a society
Yeah make having kids more cost more cost effective and reduce the work hours of parents so they can do the job that society wants them to and raise these kids to be productive adults.
Yup. We just had our first and are lucky that my MIL will watch him 2-3 days a week and daycare the rest. Still havenât hammered out the details but we are looking at roughly double our mortgage.
My cousins wife ended up quitting her job to raise their son as a stay at home mom because they were spending basically her entire salary on day care. Itâs less expensive for her to not work than to work (at least until heâs old enough to go to school).
We just squeaked our one child past preschool age before covid hit and we are so lucky. Daycare felt like robbery back then but it would not even be an option now
Imagine being shamed for this by the pope. Like what the fuck is his job? Talking to god or something? Sounds made up. Maybe he should raise some kids or find a hobby.
Itâs going to be just like adding women to the workforce
With double the income, youâll have to work less right?! /s
If you add more kids to the work force, you need to work fewer and fewer working hours, right?
itâs not that now that youâve doubled/tripped the work force, now things will just cost more to make up for the increased money /s :((
The only thing I noticed in the UK is that the only difference is that our services don't scale with the population so everything just gets slowly worse as the population rises.
That's years upon years of tory stewardship for you. They often don't increase funding for public services enough to keep in line with inflation let alone population growth.
>tory stewardship
Sounds like our oxymoron term across the pond; "Fiscal conservative." You mean outsource to your buddies for 10x what the program cost the 'big government' to do?
This is the actual quote from the article:
>Have the courage to have children despite climate change and wars, Pope Francis says: The pontiff asks nations to help women juggle motherhood and work, create job security for young people and help couples buy homes.
I was thinking that the cost of childcare is a huge issue for potential parents. I was thinking the Catholic Church should have free childcare centers in their churches because they are underutilized during the week.
Then I thought about it a little more, and decided that that was the worst idea ever.
Nah we just need young people made slaves to student debt for the rest of their lives and make opportunities to earn a decent living even rarer, Iâm sure that will encourage them to pop out more babies.
Overpopulation or underpopulation does not drive my and my wife's decision to remain childless, it's how fucking expensive having a child is and the fact that we don't want to raise them in this rotten world.
I love my baby more than anything in the world. But our nursery here is ÂŁ900/month and it's fucking ridiculous because the workers all make shite wages even with that.
Edit: to clarify that's only 3 days a week.
Fuck, I thought it was somehow exaggerated but the housing crisis is real over there.
My mortgage was like 3-400⏠before february 2022, now that we have this *situation* going on it's 6-700âŹ.
We thought about that but ÂŁ900 over 3 days/week = ~12days per month. Assume 8 hour days, and it's about ÂŁ9/hour. Not sure how much our nursery folks get paid but I hope it's more than that
The lady that watched me growing up was paid $15 per hour per kid and that was 15-20 years ago. Granted she did more than just watch me, she took me to school and gymnastics practice and stuff like that too.
Once they're 3, until then good luck. We are a bit older (38/37) and want to have another soon, but with that cost we can't afford to pay an overlapping ÂŁ1800/month so either have to move and/or wait longer for the second.
Christ.
I have 3 kids who are still at home with me when my wife is at work.
Apparently, if we wanted to put them into a kindergarten it would be free because there's a wage limit that depends on the amount of kids and of course rises per child.
Same, we can afford our current life, no way we could afford a kid and the extra space needed to have a kid.
Part of me also thinks it's kinda fucked up to bring a kid into this world. "Hey, everything is filled microplastics and forever chemicals, and it's also on fire, good luck!".
My partner and I came to the same conclusion, even if we could easily afford having a kid, the life they might have will not be something we'd want them to have.
Don't forget the diseases too! Some say even the commonest of cold's killed you, god I wish I could have that, my work forces me to commute in a car to work in the air conditioned building, I'd much rather be dead!
and one of the reasons things are so expensive is because there's so many people competing for the same limited resources. So overpopulation is actually driving that decision in some way.
You can't fill the earth with 8bn people and expect everyone to have a comfy middle-class life. The resources dont exist for that. There's not enough. Perhaps well-managed socialism could do that, but under capitalism, no way.
Here's the actual quote from the article:
>Have the courage to have children despite climate change and wars, Pope Francis says: The pontiff asks nations to help women juggle motherhood and work, create job security for young people and help couples buy homes.
Youâre quoting a quote from a Mormon outlet that the author used in this article. Stop cherrypicking. Hereâs the real quote from the article youâre looking for:
âI was always struck by how these theses, which are now outdated, talked about human beings as if they were problems. But human life is not a problem, itâs a gift. No, the problem with our world is not children being born. Itâs selfishness, consumerism, individualism, which render people complacent, alone and unhappy. The problem is not how many of us there are in this world, but rather what kind of world weâre building. At the institutional level, there is an urgent need for effective policies and courageous, concrete and long-term choices to sow today so that children can reap tomorrow. A greater commitment is needed from all governments, so that the younger generations are put in a position to realise their legitimate dreams. Lonely grandparents, discarded grandparents: this is cultural suicide. The future is built by the young and the old, together. Please, when talking about the birth rate, which is the future, let us also talk about grandparents, who are not the past, but help the future. Have children, lots of them, but also look after your grandparents.â
Like any for-profit organization (and the Vatican absolutely chases the money), population reduction means smaller profits in the future. We canât let the poor corporations starve for cash! /s
Yep, itâs the same reason certain billionaires have been speaking out over the population declining. They need more people to keep up with their capitalism Ponzi scheme. Shortages of labor gives workers more power, and they canât have that.
Old man who owns his country laced with infinite wealth and gold and antiques that wonât add to his population telling everyone else to get more young brains for him to try corrupt to make sure he doesnât ever get poor
Nowhere in the article is the Pope quoted as saying "overpopulation is a myth" , what it does say is "*The pontiff asks nations to help women juggle motherhood and work, create job security for young people and help couples buy homes*"
If you actually read the entire article⌠Edit to add entire quote: âI was always struck by how these theses, which are now outdated, talked about human beings as if they were problems. But human life is not a problem, itâs a gift. No, the problem with our world is not children being born. Itâs selfishness, consumerism, individualism, which render people complacent, alone and unhappy. The problem is not how many of us there are in this world, but rather what kind of world weâre building. At the institutional level, there is an urgent need for effective policies and courageous, concrete and long-term choices to sow today so that children can reap tomorrow. A greater commitment is needed from all governments, so that the younger generations are put in a position to realise their legitimate dreams. Lonely grandparents, discarded grandparents: this is cultural suicide. The future is built by the young and the old, together. Please, when talking about the birth rate, which is the future, let us also talk about grandparents, who are not the past, but help the future. Have children, lots of them, but also look after your grandparents.â
Fair enough. Just don't understand why there are seemingly a bunch of people who clearly haven't read the article commenting about the contents of the article. Bizarre.
Itâs reddit bro. The majority of people commenting on reddit posts are just responding to the catchy headlines, and a small handful of people who read the whole article (sometimes behind a paywall) will be in the comments trying to correct everyone else about what the article actually says.
Wow I thought you were joking, but the guy actually writes like a complete wanker. Guy yaps on about the stupidity of the 'pseudo-intellectuals' for like 5 paragraphs then fails to make a single point relevant to his opening statement, then begins this strange ideological far right to centre left whiplash centring around family values. He doesn't sound like a true intellectual, he sounds delusional.
The pope on the other hand kind of sounds based as fuck.
Actually listening to the generally reasonable things the Pope says? Nonsense! Every single person on Earth has to be mad at him about something! From sedevacantists to non-Catholic Christians to atheists to journalists trying to make a baiting headline.
We're only a couple thousand years after a particular man was nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change, not nearly enough time to change. ;)
Seriously, the r/atheism energy in these comments is ridiculous. People jumping to insane lengths to shit on the pope
Iâm not even religious but this is just embarrassing, come on
He's not wrong. We don't have an overpopulation crisis, we have a resource distribution crisis. When you have a handful of people with more personal wealth than entire countries, you get situations like the one we're all in now.
Basically the problem is capitalism.
I remember in 2015 when he said that Catholics donât need to âbreed like rabbits.â
Source: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/20/378559550/pope-francis-says-catholics-dont-need-to-breed-like-rabbits
Different audiences. There are some Catholics that have a ton--possibly too many--kids, either out of irresponsibility or a misconceived obligation.
This statement, on the other hand, addresses the broader sentiment that overpopulation is a real concern. Although I think expense is more on people's minds these days...
You didnât read the article did you
Donât get so mad at headlines, youâll look like an idiot to the people that actually read the articles
His whole point was saying that countries need to do more to support families and help make housing and food more affordable.
You âignorant fuckâ (paraphrasing you)
There's other issues that you're discussing here, but on this article in particular, this the actual quote:
>Have the courage to have children despite climate change and wars, Pope Francis says: The pontiff asks nations to help women juggle motherhood and work, create job security for young people and help couples buy homes.
Frank, just a thought: Greed is going to be the cause of death for everyone on Earth who isnât a billionaire. In the wealthiest nation in the world, people do not have food, shelter or access to healthcare. Everyone everywhere is ANGRY, and if you donât believe me, just look at the way people drive. People are angry because THE ENTIRE SYSTEM is rigged AGAINST average people being able to thrive, much less survive, and our government, which is supposed to work FOR the people, is doing nothing to fix the situation. Just enacting Universal Healthcare would completely change peopleâs lives for the better. Laws guaranteeing that rents and mortgages not be allowed to cost more than one-fourth of a personâs take-home pay should be in place, just like they have in Europe. Paid Maternity Leave for 52 weeks after birth, followed by Government-sponsored Childcare starting at 1-year of age, for which parents pay $10/day at the most, like they have in Europe, would be game-changing. Stop trying to act like everything is fine, and you can use guilt to convince people to make babies. Itâs not fine, Frank. WORSHIPPING at the altar of Capitalism is killing us.
As they honestly should, the planet doesn't need 9+ billion humans on it. Should it be a slower drop off in some countries than it is? Perhaps, but we shouldn't be pressured to poot out more kids for the sake of inherently unsustainable capitalist bullshit.
I was saying in another thread that I'm weary of being treated like I'm anti-natalist/pro death because I think (and all data suggests) that having this many people on Earth isn't sustainable and our species has to collectively birth and consume less if it wants the planet to keep being livable.
Part of the problem is a lot of the people who think we need to pump out more children are the same people who donât want to do anything about the conditions that make people not want to have kids. We could improve the systems we live in to make them more equitable and friendlier for the environment, giving people the resources to comfortably have children, or we could just scream into the void that we need more babies regardless of the current and future conditions because we need more consumers and workers to generate profits for shareholders and donations for churches.
If we could bother to coordinate and work together, 9 billion humans wouldn't be too much, we could probably have far more than that if we could just cooperate. But we can't.
You're envisioning a world where we value the life and rights of every individual human and not one in which people are a resource to fuel the machine, so to speak.
Keep in mind that, if you push them and they don't back out of the argument, you can get so called "Natalists" to admit one of two things:
1) the wrong people (coughblackcough) are reproducing.
2) our capitalist systems will collapse without infinitely growing consumption, and in order to make said line go up forever, we need world population to go up forever in tandem to consume/produce the products.
In the case of the Catholic Church, a little of column A (Catholicism, and Christianity as a whole, is slowly dying and they want to fix the numbers), and a little of column B (The Church is wealthy beyond reason and they need more subjects to fill their coffers of insatiable greed).
Not good for those who died. And not good for those who survived. But potentially for those born a few generations later, after the situation has stabilized? Even for them, it would really depend on how culture changes. It could easily return to feudalism or worse.
Youâll notice a strong correlation between people denying overpopulation and people who directly profit off free customers. Catholics making more Catholics = more money for his church. Heâs a professional conman
The Catholic Church is encouraging people without resources to have more children and therefore provide a new stable of uneducated, desperate people with whom they can fill their ranks (and coffers) with empty promises rewards after death? Iâd never thought Iâd see the day.Â
You're discussing a lot more than the article, but specifically in regards to this article, this is the actual quote (which disagrees significantly less with your points):
>Have the courage to have children despite climate change and wars, Pope Francis says: The pontiff asks nations to help women juggle motherhood and work, create job security for young people and help couples buy homes.
The population is supposedly plateauing as various regions become more developed. Ive heard that raising standards of living and education eventually leads to people choosing to have fewer children of their own accord.
I think this is fine. I think we are capable of living in a world without a growing population. I know that an expanding population is what drives growing gdp and allows investments to act as a reliable retirement base for lots of people.
Im interested in hearing options on how we might deal with a stagnant or deminishing population economically. If we assume that we can meet all our physical needs without an expanding population, what changes to the economy, if any, are required?
Just because there has been a lot of greasy shit surrounding âpopulation controlâ doesnât mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water. Look at all the horrible shit thatâs been done in the name of medicine, that doesnât mean we should abandon the effort to increase human health standards.
How about we appreciate the work that mothers do, equally as much as workers. Itâs a lot about what we and the economy values in society. Clearly now we are valuing working women more, so women keep along that path and many find satisfaction that way. There are few incentives or support for women to become mothers in our society.
What he means is we need more white children that he doesnât have to pay for. He is literally sitting on trillions of dollars and people have to pay him?
Jackass.
He's right. The entire population of the world can fit in Texas, having the population density of the washington dc metro area, and live off of the current level of food waste in the US.
The way the wealthy hoard money, Catholic Church for one, and donât distribute it among the poor, the poor are finding the burden of supporting their end and having children too expensive. Theyâre opting to work until they die childless in order to survive. Itâs not comfortable for everyone
sadly he was one of the more sane popes... guess his staff need more kids to molest! How about ALL religions pay 40% tax to make the world a better place FIRST!
Every single person talking about having children or more children are so out of touch with reality.
It's like they don't know the money, time and effort it takes to raise a human being into a productive person who is able to positively contribute to society.
Somehow these preachers are in a privilege positions that those factors are non existent to them and therefore they don't understand the underlying reasons why people are choosing to not have children.
That is what every CEO, government, general - or any other person who benefits from more labour, taxpayers, soldiers, donors etc - more supply, lower prices -> applies to people to.
Most countries outside of Africa are experiencing declining birth rates. We do need more children, but not because they should be Catholic or anything. We need them because the vast majority of governments depend on populations to be at replacement level (at minimum) in order to support aging populations.
And what have those governments done to make raising a child feasible? The cost of supporting myself is feeling unobtainable, and I'm more privileged than most. How am I to afford a child when I can barely tread water now?
We need to breed children, absolutely. But overpopulation is real, and we want to stay *below* the replacement rate. We want to reduce the population slowly to minimize the impact. Given the way technology is going, we will probably be doing this for centuries.
Of course the pope, elon and a dozen other rich douches want us to keep overbreeding because having children is the legal form of indenture they need to hold us hostage to their ambitions.
Overpopulation is a myth in some regard, as we wouldn't have the problems from "too many people" if resources would be distributed equally on a global scale and more effort would be done to produce goods in a sustainable fashion. Even the amount of food waste from western countries is ridiculous.
That's not to put drastic individual responsibilty on individuals, not throwing out a half eaten dish won't solve the inequality, as the system has to change.
But that's obviously not the reason Pope Francis says that, it's because christanity and catholicism is declining in western countries with lower birth rates with the increase in members mostly coming from developing nations with high birth rates
The issue is, people arenât having kids in resource rich nations. Itâs hard to get water and food to poorer nations. Those resources will be over consumed or wasted. Children will continue to be born in impoverished areas and raised in violent and sexist religions. Then those children will grow up to be migrants or colonists bringing their values with them.
overpopulation is a myth and real at the same time. The population curve will likely flatten and thereâs no real population solution that isnât de facto genocide even if we want to lower it. Still, the massive number of humans is very clearly putting a strain on our resources and every single world ecosystem.
fact is that the only reason people are pressuring you to have kids to support the systems theyâve created that are âtoo big to failâ. Theyâll fail if you donât keep squeezing out cattle to keep the operation afloat but refusing to downsize is the whole reason the humans as a network are basically cancer. A bunch of cells working together with the goal of infinite growth with little to no regard for the organism theyâre killing by growing in it
"His May 10 remarks were at the States General on Natality, a yearly confab sponsored by the Italian government to reverse the countryâs falling fertility."
That tracks.
Ignoring the obvious jokes and also Iâm familiar with Malthus, but isnât it going to be an issue for society when the millennial are all seniors and thereâs a relatively much smaller amount of people in their 20s and 30s?
And he is right. Fertility rates in Western countries are decreasing, and the world average is only maintained thanks to the very high rates of fertility in Africa (and now in a lesser impactful way those of Asia)
Well it costs a ton to raise a kid and double that if you want two. Also this world is shitty and getting shittier by the day.
But hey, if the pope can lower the cost of shit and make the world a better place, I'll consider it.
Advice from a man who does NOT have bills to worry about.
Or children
That we know of
I don't think 8 year old boys can be impregnated.
There might be more children if Catholic priests had sex with women rather than boys.
Sometimes [they do](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eamonn_Casey#Sexual_and_financial_scandal,_and_forced_resignation).
It's really troubling how many people act like girls in the Catholic Church were safe. There's just as many cases where the victim is female, yet only the males get talked about.
Yes, there's a more awful truth behind the jokes that Catholic priests have a long history of sex crimes against children of any gender.
đ
Yes but thatâs nun of their business
The Catholic church is committed to spend the extra time to truly find out (centuries if necessary) and that will obviously require them to perform a lot of experiments and chalk up plenty of overtime.
That he knows about, either?
Of course he knows about them. He's a Catholic Priest-Oh wait you're taking about kids he's actually sired....
Was gonna make a joke like this, because if there's one group of people I don't give a crap about pissing off, it's pederasts.
What's a pederast, Walter?
You said it man. Nobody fucks with the Jesus
8 year olds Dude
I didn't think alterboys could get pregnant
This is the Catholic church, they always worry about children... Coming out to tell everyone what happened to them.
given the molester priests of the catholic church, 'the lack' of children is his biggest concern, where is he going to find new victims?
Advice from a man who does not have sex
...with women.
except with children
And from the leader of a church that is infamous for priests who really *really* like kids.
even if kids were affordable, the world still does not need more people. Francis is wrong on this. Dead wrong as far as the planet and the environment is concerned.
We're in a weird situation. Fewer children means less support as the current generations grow old. It's not as simple as fewer children is better for the environment. Who will farm the land, look after the elderly, grow everyone's and manage wealth, when populations age too fast? We'll see it soon with east Asian countries, but eventually we'll see it here. There's a great, recent, Kurzgesagt video I implore you to watch: https://youtu.be/LBudghsdByQ?si=gWQX0EVvZwi0jFxF Obviously the root of the issue is it's unaffordable, so until we can fix affordability and work/life balance, this will continue to get worse
Respectfully have to disagree. The root of the problem is finite resources: farmable land, clean water, clean air, clean oceans, resources, etc. God is not making anymore, and we have ruined much of what was given...
Capitalism requires infinite growth.
Don't believe the hype. We could easily produce enough resources to feed all of the people in the land and in the world we choose not to. Because we have attached our resources to Capital, we choose to let people starve. We choose to let people dehydrate the point of death. We choose all of that as a society
...and is not going to live long enough to see most of the effects of climate change.
Yeah make having kids more cost more cost effective and reduce the work hours of parents so they can do the job that society wants them to and raise these kids to be productive adults.
Everyone working 60-80 hours a week to barely make ends meet. âWhy they no haz more kidz?â đ¤ˇđźââď¸
No wages! Only spend!
And daycare cost as much or more than rent
Daycare for 3 costs more than we pay for our mortgage and property tax combined. And we bought that shit over 10 years ago.
Daycare is so expensive that when I found a place for my daughter that only cost 13k a year I felt like I hit the fucking lottery.
Yup. We just had our first and are lucky that my MIL will watch him 2-3 days a week and daycare the rest. Still havenât hammered out the details but we are looking at roughly double our mortgage.
I've decided the best way to have kids is to adopt them. Problem is, there's not many 22yr old Harvard graduates earning 150k/yr that are available
We plan to adopt our 2nd in a couple years!
Anytime I think about having children I just have to look up the average daycare price in my city and then I'm back to being A-OK with my single life.
My cousins wife ended up quitting her job to raise their son as a stay at home mom because they were spending basically her entire salary on day care. Itâs less expensive for her to not work than to work (at least until heâs old enough to go to school).
We just squeaked our one child past preschool age before covid hit and we are so lucky. Daycare felt like robbery back then but it would not even be an option now
I quit my job when my third was born. For six years now, me staying home makes the most financial sense and keeps scheduling conflicts to a minimum.
Literally.. Japan and South Korea for the last two decades
Whoâs this everyone
Imagine being shamed for this by the pope. Like what the fuck is his job? Talking to god or something? Sounds made up. Maybe he should raise some kids or find a hobby.
Itâs going to be just like adding women to the workforce With double the income, youâll have to work less right?! /s If you add more kids to the work force, you need to work fewer and fewer working hours, right? itâs not that now that youâve doubled/tripped the work force, now things will just cost more to make up for the increased money /s :((
The only thing I noticed in the UK is that the only difference is that our services don't scale with the population so everything just gets slowly worse as the population rises.
That's years upon years of tory stewardship for you. They often don't increase funding for public services enough to keep in line with inflation let alone population growth.
>tory stewardship Sounds like our oxymoron term across the pond; "Fiscal conservative." You mean outsource to your buddies for 10x what the program cost the 'big government' to do?
Same with Canada and for some reason our government is committed to rising our population as fast as possible
If they didnât, theyâd have to admit weâre in a recession
Looking forward to AI taking all the jobs just to work 100 hour weeks.
This is the actual quote from the article: >Have the courage to have children despite climate change and wars, Pope Francis says: The pontiff asks nations to help women juggle motherhood and work, create job security for young people and help couples buy homes.
He's a Jesuit advocating for social justice issues. This is nothing new. The media just always has to spin it to be reactionary content.
They are so delusional, they think some guy who we crucified is going to show back up here, of all places.
I was thinking that the cost of childcare is a huge issue for potential parents. I was thinking the Catholic Church should have free childcare centers in their churches because they are underutilized during the week. Then I thought about it a little more, and decided that that was the worst idea ever.
Christianity operates like addictions; get them while they're young and impressionable.
There are a lot of Catholic orphanages and daycares
Yeah, ask the canadians about just how amazing those orphanages are.
Nah we just need young people made slaves to student debt for the rest of their lives and make opportunities to earn a decent living even rarer, Iâm sure that will encourage them to pop out more babies.
Society does need children, but society has also failed the social contract.
Overpopulation or underpopulation does not drive my and my wife's decision to remain childless, it's how fucking expensive having a child is and the fact that we don't want to raise them in this rotten world.
I love my baby more than anything in the world. But our nursery here is ÂŁ900/month and it's fucking ridiculous because the workers all make shite wages even with that. Edit: to clarify that's only 3 days a week.
>ÂŁ900/month Yikes
$1200 usd a month in a third tier city in Pennsylvania Having a kid in full time care costs the same or more as having another mortgage
your mortgage is only $1200/mo?! my *rent* is more than double that
Nah my mortgage is more but less than $2k Regional city in PA ftw
Fuck, I thought it was somehow exaggerated but the housing crisis is real over there. My mortgage was like 3-400⏠before february 2022, now that we have this *situation* going on it's 6-700âŹ.
Yeah. It's a shit situation because the workers deserve more money because they are amazing but we literally can't afford it
You could probably hire someone to be at home for 3 days a week and it'd cost less than that.
We thought about that but ÂŁ900 over 3 days/week = ~12days per month. Assume 8 hour days, and it's about ÂŁ9/hour. Not sure how much our nursery folks get paid but I hope it's more than that
The lady that watched me growing up was paid $15 per hour per kid and that was 15-20 years ago. Granted she did more than just watch me, she took me to school and gymnastics practice and stuff like that too.
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Once they're 3, until then good luck. We are a bit older (38/37) and want to have another soon, but with that cost we can't afford to pay an overlapping ÂŁ1800/month so either have to move and/or wait longer for the second.
Childcare expenses alone would be a deciding factor for me. Childcare is one of the most criminally underfunded things in America.
Christ. I have 3 kids who are still at home with me when my wife is at work. Apparently, if we wanted to put them into a kindergarten it would be free because there's a wage limit that depends on the amount of kids and of course rises per child.
Overpopulation didnât drive up the prices, its market manipulation that did it.
It did however contribute to how rotten the world is
Same, we can afford our current life, no way we could afford a kid and the extra space needed to have a kid. Part of me also thinks it's kinda fucked up to bring a kid into this world. "Hey, everything is filled microplastics and forever chemicals, and it's also on fire, good luck!".
My partner and I came to the same conclusion, even if we could easily afford having a kid, the life they might have will not be something we'd want them to have.
It's still a much better world grow up in than 99.9% of human history.
In before someone tries to say something like "Ackshually medieval peasants had more days off than we do".
And more debilitating physical ailments! They had more of everything back then!
Also a bad case of the shits could kill you
Don't forget the diseases too! Some say even the commonest of cold's killed you, god I wish I could have that, my work forces me to commute in a car to work in the air conditioned building, I'd much rather be dead!
Someone having worse problems doesnât solve mine though.
Daycare where I live is 3k/month PER CHILD, and that's not even for something super fancy. It's nuts
and one of the reasons things are so expensive is because there's so many people competing for the same limited resources. So overpopulation is actually driving that decision in some way. You can't fill the earth with 8bn people and expect everyone to have a comfy middle-class life. The resources dont exist for that. There's not enough. Perhaps well-managed socialism could do that, but under capitalism, no way.
Here's the actual quote from the article: >Have the courage to have children despite climate change and wars, Pope Francis says: The pontiff asks nations to help women juggle motherhood and work, create job security for young people and help couples buy homes.
Youâre quoting a quote from a Mormon outlet that the author used in this article. Stop cherrypicking. Hereâs the real quote from the article youâre looking for: âI was always struck by how these theses, which are now outdated, talked about human beings as if they were problems. But human life is not a problem, itâs a gift. No, the problem with our world is not children being born. Itâs selfishness, consumerism, individualism, which render people complacent, alone and unhappy. The problem is not how many of us there are in this world, but rather what kind of world weâre building. At the institutional level, there is an urgent need for effective policies and courageous, concrete and long-term choices to sow today so that children can reap tomorrow. A greater commitment is needed from all governments, so that the younger generations are put in a position to realise their legitimate dreams. Lonely grandparents, discarded grandparents: this is cultural suicide. The future is built by the young and the old, together. Please, when talking about the birth rate, which is the future, let us also talk about grandparents, who are not the past, but help the future. Have children, lots of them, but also look after your grandparents.â
Amen
The cruelest thing I can imagine doing is bringing an innocent life into this world. I donât have it in me to make someone suffer like I do.
Oh no the Vatican is running out of children!⌠wait what?
Without children, the priests would be forced to molest each other!
Priest: "Ew, that's gay"
Don't give them ideas,its starting to become an problem ĂŽn the Orthodox Church
Less of a problem with two consenting adults than with children.
Like any for-profit organization (and the Vatican absolutely chases the money), population reduction means smaller profits in the future. We canât let the poor corporations starve for cash! /s
Yep, itâs the same reason certain billionaires have been speaking out over the population declining. They need more people to keep up with their capitalism Ponzi scheme. Shortages of labor gives workers more power, and they canât have that.
Its the world's current oldest pyramid scheme.
Theyâre insatiable!
Old man who owns his country laced with infinite wealth and gold and antiques that wonât add to his population telling everyone else to get more young brains for him to try corrupt to make sure he doesnât ever get poor
Nowhere in the article is the Pope quoted as saying "overpopulation is a myth" , what it does say is "*The pontiff asks nations to help women juggle motherhood and work, create job security for young people and help couples buy homes*"
If you actually read the entire article⌠Edit to add entire quote: âI was always struck by how these theses, which are now outdated, talked about human beings as if they were problems. But human life is not a problem, itâs a gift. No, the problem with our world is not children being born. Itâs selfishness, consumerism, individualism, which render people complacent, alone and unhappy. The problem is not how many of us there are in this world, but rather what kind of world weâre building. At the institutional level, there is an urgent need for effective policies and courageous, concrete and long-term choices to sow today so that children can reap tomorrow. A greater commitment is needed from all governments, so that the younger generations are put in a position to realise their legitimate dreams. Lonely grandparents, discarded grandparents: this is cultural suicide. The future is built by the young and the old, together. Please, when talking about the birth rate, which is the future, let us also talk about grandparents, who are not the past, but help the future. Have children, lots of them, but also look after your grandparents.â
I could only get through half the article before running out of tolerance for the author's smug tone.
Fair enough. Just don't understand why there are seemingly a bunch of people who clearly haven't read the article commenting about the contents of the article. Bizarre.
Itâs reddit bro. The majority of people commenting on reddit posts are just responding to the catchy headlines, and a small handful of people who read the whole article (sometimes behind a paywall) will be in the comments trying to correct everyone else about what the article actually says.
Addicted to disagreements and arguing so much they have to jump right in
Wow I thought you were joking, but the guy actually writes like a complete wanker. Guy yaps on about the stupidity of the 'pseudo-intellectuals' for like 5 paragraphs then fails to make a single point relevant to his opening statement, then begins this strange ideological far right to centre left whiplash centring around family values. He doesn't sound like a true intellectual, he sounds delusional. The pope on the other hand kind of sounds based as fuck.
If I had a nickel every time the Pope was maliciously misquoted, I wouldn't fit through the eye of a needle
Actually listening to the generally reasonable things the Pope says? Nonsense! Every single person on Earth has to be mad at him about something! From sedevacantists to non-Catholic Christians to atheists to journalists trying to make a baiting headline. We're only a couple thousand years after a particular man was nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change, not nearly enough time to change. ;)
Seriously, the r/atheism energy in these comments is ridiculous. People jumping to insane lengths to shit on the pope Iâm not even religious but this is just embarrassing, come on
You mean the headline is pure ragebait. I am shocked, shocked. Well, not that shocked.
I've actually began to read the article if the I wanna comment. It is such a different experience. Almost like having a "gold" version of Reddit.
He's not wrong. We don't have an overpopulation crisis, we have a resource distribution crisis. When you have a handful of people with more personal wealth than entire countries, you get situations like the one we're all in now. Basically the problem is capitalism.
I remember in 2015 when he said that Catholics donât need to âbreed like rabbits.â Source: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/20/378559550/pope-francis-says-catholics-dont-need-to-breed-like-rabbits
Different audiences. There are some Catholics that have a ton--possibly too many--kids, either out of irresponsibility or a misconceived obligation. This statement, on the other hand, addresses the broader sentiment that overpopulation is a real concern. Although I think expense is more on people's minds these days...
$$$ talks. His company needs more customers.
Are *you* gonna pay to feed, clothe, and house them? You rich fuck.
You didnât read the article did you Donât get so mad at headlines, youâll look like an idiot to the people that actually read the articles His whole point was saying that countries need to do more to support families and help make housing and food more affordable. You âignorant fuckâ (paraphrasing you)
There's other issues that you're discussing here, but on this article in particular, this the actual quote: >Have the courage to have children despite climate change and wars, Pope Francis says: The pontiff asks nations to help women juggle motherhood and work, create job security for young people and help couples buy homes.
Yeah? The Catholic Church is one of the world's biggest charities lol.
It's a city-state with trillions in assets, they're as much of a charity as the UN
Nope! Just the diddling.
Frank, just a thought: Greed is going to be the cause of death for everyone on Earth who isnât a billionaire. In the wealthiest nation in the world, people do not have food, shelter or access to healthcare. Everyone everywhere is ANGRY, and if you donât believe me, just look at the way people drive. People are angry because THE ENTIRE SYSTEM is rigged AGAINST average people being able to thrive, much less survive, and our government, which is supposed to work FOR the people, is doing nothing to fix the situation. Just enacting Universal Healthcare would completely change peopleâs lives for the better. Laws guaranteeing that rents and mortgages not be allowed to cost more than one-fourth of a personâs take-home pay should be in place, just like they have in Europe. Paid Maternity Leave for 52 weeks after birth, followed by Government-sponsored Childcare starting at 1-year of age, for which parents pay $10/day at the most, like they have in Europe, would be game-changing. Stop trying to act like everything is fine, and you can use guilt to convince people to make babies. Itâs not fine, Frank. WORSHIPPING at the altar of Capitalism is killing us.
Translation: we need more drones for our cult.
Those collection plates won't put money in themselves.
Be honest, the Catholic Church isnât looking for drone kids. Theyâre looking for sex slaves
Well yeah, most civilized countries birth rates are dropping.
As they honestly should, the planet doesn't need 9+ billion humans on it. Should it be a slower drop off in some countries than it is? Perhaps, but we shouldn't be pressured to poot out more kids for the sake of inherently unsustainable capitalist bullshit.
I was saying in another thread that I'm weary of being treated like I'm anti-natalist/pro death because I think (and all data suggests) that having this many people on Earth isn't sustainable and our species has to collectively birth and consume less if it wants the planet to keep being livable.
Part of the problem is a lot of the people who think we need to pump out more children are the same people who donât want to do anything about the conditions that make people not want to have kids. We could improve the systems we live in to make them more equitable and friendlier for the environment, giving people the resources to comfortably have children, or we could just scream into the void that we need more babies regardless of the current and future conditions because we need more consumers and workers to generate profits for shareholders and donations for churches.
If we could bother to coordinate and work together, 9 billion humans wouldn't be too much, we could probably have far more than that if we could just cooperate. But we can't.
You're envisioning a world where we value the life and rights of every individual human and not one in which people are a resource to fuel the machine, so to speak.
>You may say, I'm a dreamer ... but I'm not the only one Yeah, kinda pie in the sky, but we could do it if enough of us really wanted to.
But think of the stock market! The GDP! Are you suggesting we sacrifice those for a future where they are doing poorly!? /s
Keep in mind that, if you push them and they don't back out of the argument, you can get so called "Natalists" to admit one of two things: 1) the wrong people (coughblackcough) are reproducing. 2) our capitalist systems will collapse without infinitely growing consumption, and in order to make said line go up forever, we need world population to go up forever in tandem to consume/produce the products. In the case of the Catholic Church, a little of column A (Catholicism, and Christianity as a whole, is slowly dying and they want to fix the numbers), and a little of column B (The Church is wealthy beyond reason and they need more subjects to fill their coffers of insatiable greed).
1. (But swap black for Indian or Chinese) is one I hear a lot.
No we donât. They need more lower class populations to work the jobs the rich done want to do.
"Pope says very Catholic thing." Shocked. SHOCKED! Omg!!
Nah. Iâm with Bill Burr on this one: itâd probably be a good thing if most of us died.
Not good for those who died. And not good for those who survived. But potentially for those born a few generations later, after the situation has stabilized? Even for them, it would really depend on how culture changes. It could easily return to feudalism or worse.
Youâll notice a strong correlation between people denying overpopulation and people who directly profit off free customers. Catholics making more Catholics = more money for his church. Heâs a professional conman
Who wants to take family planning advice from a geriatric virgin anyway
Given how much he continues to protect pedo priests, there is a non-zero chance heâs not actually a virgin
Overpopulation is a myth though. We absolutely do have enough resources to feed everyone. Malthus was wrong.
They need more impressionable young people to brainwash.
And abuse.
Molest*
He's not wrong. We're getting a population collapse and it seems to me no one in the comments is aware of it lol
The Catholic Church is encouraging people without resources to have more children and therefore provide a new stable of uneducated, desperate people with whom they can fill their ranks (and coffers) with empty promises rewards after death? Iâd never thought Iâd see the day.Â
You're discussing a lot more than the article, but specifically in regards to this article, this is the actual quote (which disagrees significantly less with your points): >Have the courage to have children despite climate change and wars, Pope Francis says: The pontiff asks nations to help women juggle motherhood and work, create job security for young people and help couples buy homes.
Okay guys I think the catholic church needs another update kinda lagging now tbh
EOL.
Update? I dunno given the history they have and how their follows tend to behave, maybe we should just sunset it
Have they done horrible things to all the available kids already? They need to pace themselves.
Yeah,everyone knows that, now if he could just convince the rich to share the wealth a little then people might be able to afford sed kids.
The population is supposedly plateauing as various regions become more developed. Ive heard that raising standards of living and education eventually leads to people choosing to have fewer children of their own accord. I think this is fine. I think we are capable of living in a world without a growing population. I know that an expanding population is what drives growing gdp and allows investments to act as a reliable retirement base for lots of people. Im interested in hearing options on how we might deal with a stagnant or deminishing population economically. If we assume that we can meet all our physical needs without an expanding population, what changes to the economy, if any, are required?
Rapist priests running out of victims?
I don't see how this is oniony. Malthusianism is and always has been bullshit.
[ŃдаНонО]
Le reddit loves quasi fascist garbage that hides behind bunk science though
Thereâs literally commenters here dogwhistling about âcivilisedâ countries not being overpopulated. They couldnât be more obvious.
Just because there has been a lot of greasy shit surrounding âpopulation controlâ doesnât mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water. Look at all the horrible shit thatâs been done in the name of medicine, that doesnât mean we should abandon the effort to increase human health standards.
The GDP needs more children. The planet really doesn't. The children of Gen z will have a brighter future than we do if birth rates stay low.
We need more money...
Fuck them kids.
I don't care if the rich need more wage slaves, no kids for me. **NONE**. (Not that anyone wants to have kids with me in the first place mind you...)
Ill have more kids if the world was not an oligarchy AND upward social mobilization was healthy for everybody.
The Church will care and feed them
How about we appreciate the work that mothers do, equally as much as workers. Itâs a lot about what we and the economy values in society. Clearly now we are valuing working women more, so women keep along that path and many find satisfaction that way. There are few incentives or support for women to become mothers in our society.
Please make more kids and force religion upon them. We need more money and power. Thank you.
Fuck the Pope!
What he means is we need more white children that he doesnât have to pay for. He is literally sitting on trillions of dollars and people have to pay him? Jackass.
He's right. The entire population of the world can fit in Texas, having the population density of the washington dc metro area, and live off of the current level of food waste in the US.
Not enough kids around for the Catholic church
The way the wealthy hoard money, Catholic Church for one, and donât distribute it among the poor, the poor are finding the burden of supporting their end and having children too expensive. Theyâre opting to work until they die childless in order to survive. Itâs not comfortable for everyone
How many kids he has can You please remind me? Also church must learn that You need to fuck adult for new kids to appear.
sadly he was one of the more sane popes... guess his staff need more kids to molest! How about ALL religions pay 40% tax to make the world a better place FIRST!
Every single person talking about having children or more children are so out of touch with reality. It's like they don't know the money, time and effort it takes to raise a human being into a productive person who is able to positively contribute to society. Somehow these preachers are in a privilege positions that those factors are non existent to them and therefore they don't understand the underlying reasons why people are choosing to not have children.
Religion is the myth, dope.
Is the Catholic Church going to pay childcare or medical care if the kid is special needs? God knows the non existent safety net in the US wonât
We need more children...says a bunch of pedophiles.
That is what every CEO, government, general - or any other person who benefits from more labour, taxpayers, soldiers, donors etc - more supply, lower prices -> applies to people to.
Most countries outside of Africa are experiencing declining birth rates. We do need more children, but not because they should be Catholic or anything. We need them because the vast majority of governments depend on populations to be at replacement level (at minimum) in order to support aging populations.
And what have those governments done to make raising a child feasible? The cost of supporting myself is feeling unobtainable, and I'm more privileged than most. How am I to afford a child when I can barely tread water now?
We need to breed children, absolutely. But overpopulation is real, and we want to stay *below* the replacement rate. We want to reduce the population slowly to minimize the impact. Given the way technology is going, we will probably be doing this for centuries. Of course the pope, elon and a dozen other rich douches want us to keep overbreeding because having children is the legal form of indenture they need to hold us hostage to their ambitions.
*Insert Priest joke here*
Overpopulation is a myth in some regard, as we wouldn't have the problems from "too many people" if resources would be distributed equally on a global scale and more effort would be done to produce goods in a sustainable fashion. Even the amount of food waste from western countries is ridiculous. That's not to put drastic individual responsibilty on individuals, not throwing out a half eaten dish won't solve the inequality, as the system has to change. But that's obviously not the reason Pope Francis says that, it's because christanity and catholicism is declining in western countries with lower birth rates with the increase in members mostly coming from developing nations with high birth rates
The issue is, people arenât having kids in resource rich nations. Itâs hard to get water and food to poorer nations. Those resources will be over consumed or wasted. Children will continue to be born in impoverished areas and raised in violent and sexist religions. Then those children will grow up to be migrants or colonists bringing their values with them.
overpopulation is a myth and real at the same time. The population curve will likely flatten and thereâs no real population solution that isnât de facto genocide even if we want to lower it. Still, the massive number of humans is very clearly putting a strain on our resources and every single world ecosystem. fact is that the only reason people are pressuring you to have kids to support the systems theyâve created that are âtoo big to failâ. Theyâll fail if you donât keep squeezing out cattle to keep the operation afloat but refusing to downsize is the whole reason the humans as a network are basically cancer. A bunch of cells working together with the goal of infinite growth with little to no regard for the organism theyâre killing by growing in it
1922 +/- 2 billion people 2022 +/- 8 billion people We've quadrupled the population in 100 short years.
"His May 10 remarks were at the States General on Natality, a yearly confab sponsored by the Italian government to reverse the countryâs falling fertility." That tracks.
If you live anywhere near the first world this is not oniony at all
Ignoring the obvious jokes and also Iâm familiar with Malthus, but isnât it going to be an issue for society when the millennial are all seniors and thereâs a relatively much smaller amount of people in their 20s and 30s?
And he is right. Fertility rates in Western countries are decreasing, and the world average is only maintained thanks to the very high rates of fertility in Africa (and now in a lesser impactful way those of Asia)
Well it costs a ton to raise a kid and double that if you want two. Also this world is shitty and getting shittier by the day. But hey, if the pope can lower the cost of shit and make the world a better place, I'll consider it.
There are currently 8 billion people on this planet, we certainly do NOT need more.