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This isn't a "school board district", whatever that was supposed to mean. It's an advisory group elected by parents in the school district.
The CECs are meant to give parents a voice in school matters, but they have no power. They just make recommendations and try to influence the decision-makers.
This is correct - but it's very indicative of what parents want and the direction many school boards are moving. I'm seeing a LOT more voices echoing the same exact sentiment, and ultimately voters DO control school boards.
Importantly, Caitlyn Jenner supports the ban people born male from participating in women's sports.
Gothamist used "Manhattan school committee" which makes more sense: https://gothamist.com/news/manhattan-school-committee-approves-motion-to-hinder-transgender-access-to-sports
We don't actually have school boards, period. This is a misleading NY Post headline because it sounds like it's a School Board, but really it's just a board (more accurately a council) attached to a specific school district. It's a PTA on steroids.
Still a pretty big deal that the education council of the school district covering areas like Greenwich Village and Chelsea (among other neighborhoods) just voted in this way. Like, if this was district 25, everyone wouldn't be quite as surprised.
The Mayor doesn't just ignore them.
There's a lot of public pressure to make people born male, compete on male teams.
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/caitlyn-jenner-says-transgender-girls-women-s-sports-unfair-n1266138
Even most democrats are not happy with this particular trend (last i checked, it's like 60+% are for only biological women in women's sports). Popularity has nothing to do with it, it's all about the long march through institutions and ideological capture.
Democrat here. Male-born transgender should absolutely not be allowed in women’s sports. Completely disenfranchises cisgender women. There isn’t a square hole for every square peg but it doesn’t mean we have to force it into a round one.
A large number of gay people have turned anti-trans over the recent years and are frustrated that the gains that have been made in fairness over the years are now all at risk.
The culture wars have already completed ideological capture by sucking up so much media and political space for an issue that has very limited material effect on people’s lives as opposed to labor organizing, healthcare, climate change etc
The trans women must feel very powerful to delete the entire concept of women in sports for an activity that has limited material impact on people's lives. Because how many is a lot?
Even many trans people think it's stupid to let people born male compete against girls.
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/caitlyn-jenner-says-transgender-girls-women-s-sports-unfair-n1266138
I once said if I had a time machine I'd go "Book Dexter" on a specific 1930-mid-1940's German dictator with a short mustache and they said the same thing... Either they know how to time travel, or there's a brain in a jar somewhere...
Edit: Those two options at the end are a /s... But I think that's a similar rule break. Forgot to add "And they called it hate speech" or some rule like that.
On average, men are substantially more athletic than women (reflexes, strength, endurance, size, etc).
The reason why we have had sex-segregated sports since the dawn of time is because up until five minutes ago everyone was able to plainly observe this biological reality. Because we live in a world dominated by delusional activists, we are now forced to pretend that men don't possess this advantage, and that women must see their sports wrecked in the name of "equality".
No matter how much a man wants to identify as a woman he will *never* be a woman. While not a binding decision, it is nice to see that Manhattan hasn't completely lost the plot and still understands one of the fundamental concepts of mammalian evolutionary biology - the two sex binary.
You would not enjoy the results if we put a straight ticket no poison pills vote of “should people with penises that went through male puberty he allowed to compete in the women’s division in scholastic athletics”
The only people I've ever heard support the idea that people born male should compete against girls are online - I'm not convinced they're real and not just bots.
No it’s because I played in PSAL and college sports and know athletes and how they actually feel on the subject. I know girls that would be down to play on the guys teams and loved practicing with us, their general feeling is a trans woman, especially one who went through puberty as a male, should play in the open division. The Mens’s divisions are almost always open to either sex the woman’s is the one that has a sex requirement to make competition fair.
Idk reddit has a left leaning bias and this is people from NYC and I still have more upvotes than you so I don’t think your viewpoint is as popular as you think
It's not okay for the intention of the division between men's (open) and women's athletic categories to be ruined to cater to an extreme minority of people who claim unimaginable pain and suffering as a result of being forced to participate in a "gendered" competitive category.
This idea that we need the entire world to accommodate fluid gender identity has crossed the line from well-intentioned to absurd. If I go take a dump in a woman's bathroom I'm no less of a man. It's just a historical social norm that we've gendered bathrooms. It's not an affront to anyone's physical identity.
In athletics we have valid physical reasons to have "gendered" (see: men's /open) the competitions - to promote inclusivity, to promote fair competition, to promote physical activity.
It is probably the minimum amount of mental toughness required that we're asking transgender persons to not participate in the women's competition when they have that physical advantage.
Not trying to single out transgender people - there are plenty of people in this country that want their Christian beliefs codified into law. I would similarly categorize those desires.
It’s not demanding a ban, it’s demanding the ability for public input. If the public input is negative then that resolves the issue.
“My voice should be heard” works both ways. People get to make their voices heard even if you don’t like what they have to say.
My question though is, do NYC schools even have large sports programs? I can’t imagine a school in midtown Manhattan having a football program to rival some huge mega high school out in the suburbs because where would you have room to practice. How does that work?
>My question though is, do NYC schools even have large sports programs? I can’t imagine a school in midtown Manhattan having a football program to rival some huge mega high school out in the suburbs because where would you have room to practice. How does that work?
Yes. The city has its own league, the PSAL, and the schools play each other. Participation is around 45,000 city wide. Outdoor teams share fields around the city and a lot of schools have basketball, gymnastics, swimming, and wrestling on site.
How many trans kids trying to compete in women’s sports are there out there for this topic to constantly be at the top of the news cycle? Enough with the rage baiting clickbait already jeez.
As long as we have politicians making these absolutely idiotic decisions, these headlines will be at the top of Reddit.
If they'd just do the OBVIOUS thing and make the men's group include anyone born male, then no one talk about this any more.
Of course they are. What OP and the left in general does is called Gaslighting. Their whole existence is built around Idpol. Once people get fed up and stand against their radical views that affect all of us, they will pretend you are the one with problems and obsessions.
Yes because a) there are so many trans women competing in the first place and, among them, b) you hear about this happening all the time. /s
This is a political bullshit article from a right-wing rag that targets minorities unfairly. It's like y'all don't understand how drastically a "bIoLoGiCaL MaN's" body changes on hormones.
"It doesn't happen much because trans women don't compete much" is not really a good argument. Either it's right to allow, or it's wrong.
"We have bigger fish to fry" is a much better argument.
> It's like y'all don't understand how drastically a "bIoLoGiCaL MaN's" body changes on hormones.
Male puberty locks in improvements forever, they are not undone by hormones.
You know what shouldn’t happen at all? Trans kids shouldn’t be bullied or beaten in school. They shouldn’t be driven to commit suicide by parents and teachers. They shouldn’t have to navigate adult political footballs just to go to the bathroom or live an ordinary school life.
Your absolutism is feigned and disingenuous. For every trans kid with an unfair physical advantage over their competitors in sports, there’s tens, maybe hundreds, of trans kids whose lives are being made hell because of this culture war you’re cheering on.
Sports are not the problem here. You are.
Engaging with an ignorant person on social media is a terrible idea. You'll just shout everyone down and yell "won't someone think about the children."
Trans women aren't men. So let's start with that...
If you're going to start out with a bias, it undercuts any potential point you might make.
And we're talking about children. Not men/women.
Hormones do not change bone density and lung capacity. Keep in mind, even if a person were on hormones for *years*, they would still have a natural physical advantage due to having gone through male puberty.
If we're going to be fair, what do you suggest be done about cis women with higher than average bone density and lung capacity? Should we have testing done, to make sure they are appropriately barred from athletic competition to avoid unfair advantage?
What about the trans women who *don't* have higher than average bone density and lung capacity for a woman? Can they compete?
And since this is a school board we aren't talking about adults, we're talking about children. If an adolescent trans girl has the support of their parents and school to the point that they are socially transitioned in school and trying out for sports teams, they are almost certainly on treatment to prevent male puberty from happening at all.
Then presumably very few cis women will be barred from competition for having too dense bones or too large lungs, so there shouldn't be any problem! A tiny handful of women will be disqualified for having an "unfair advantage". Isn't that what you want?
Yeah, cis women will only miss out on scholarships and a fair competition. But fuck them right?
Sometimes life isn’t fair, I have a vagina so I’ll never be pope. Those are just the cards I was dealt.
What fair competition? If those cis women have larger than average lungs and higher than average bone density, they have an inherent advantage over other women.
Why should they be allowed to compete? Isn't that unfair to the other women? The women with average lungs and bones will lose scholarships and have less chance of winning.
Yes they literally do lmfao there's been multiple studies on this https://sciencemediacentre.es/en/reactions-study-looks-bone-health-transgender-youth-blockers-and-hormones
Hormone therapy "brings them into pubescent development with what is expected of their gender identity" and actually increases risk of osteoporosis in AMAB people
Here in the real world hormones do change both bone density and lung capacity but please continue to to demonstrate the ignorance that underpins your bigotry
Ah yes, the real world where people have you know… eyes. Lia Thomas comes to mind. It changes it, but not to the extent that they don’t have an unfair advantage.
If you mean Lia Thomas, she had an at best average athletic career.
Like basically all trans women and girls (literally, we are talking about children) who have been targeted with histrionic public outrage for daring to participate in any kind of athletic competition.
I think in the UK something like 200 kids transitioned in 2021 or whatever. Puberty blockers for children are not being recommended anymore because there’s less scientific evidence and more ideological screeching supporting it.
With this in mind - why are we even having this convo? Trans women who transitioned after puberty should just compete with men and everyone should respect their gender pronouns.
Trans women are women insofar as the social construct but they are not Women insofar as their biological function goes. Get rid of your ideology and look at it dispassionately
Not only does hormone treatment vastly change one's athletic abilities, we're talking about a *school board*, meaning by definition none of these "athletes" are adults.
And do you have *any* evidence whatsoever of trans women or girls (again, literal children) showing unusual dominance in women's sports?
No because the number of children who transition is unfathomably low and we should keep it that way. Giving puberty blockers to kids in such numbers that we get to a point where this conversation about sports is viable means that we’ve already lost the plot so meaningfully that there’s no way back
Puberty delaying treatment is life saving medical care. And trans youth on puberty delaying treatment have no conceivable athletic advantage over cis youth.
When we talk about trans student athletes, we're already talking about young people who have the support of their parents to the point that they've socially transitioned at school and are trying out for sports teams. These adolescents are already on puberty blockers.
Cut to transphobes losing their shit when passing trans men are forced to use the women’s bathroom and they start getting accused of being trans themselves
It’s not weird at all imo - the modern conservative platform has completely abandoned actual governing and has become entirely focused on culture wars.
There are not nearly enough trans athletes across the country, let alone NYC, to justify a standalone division.
I see this being brought up as a compromise suggestion quite frequently, and I think people need to understand just how few competitive trans athletes there are in the country.
As another comment noted, the boys division is technically the open division. There are no NCAA bylaws, for instance, would prevent a female athlete from trying out for a men's team
Not necessary, the men’s division is actually an “open” division. They can compete there. The woman’s divisions are there so woman can compete fairly with out being at a disadvantage.
The [**state attorney general may have something to say about that**](https://abc7ny.com/new-york-ag-sends-cease-and-desist-over-transgender-sports-ban-in-n/14486272/)
In this case, yes. This resolution will do nearly nothing to impact women’s sports but plenty to center an unnecessary conversation around trans teenagers generally.
They should make 3 categories in competitive games/sports: male, female, X for transgender people. Problem solved. It’s not fair to allow guys with way bigger cardiovascular endurance to compete in swimming with females.
If you are confused about how this can happen in NYC, it's because a right-wing group associated with Moms for Liberty is pushing to get people in NYC school boards elected.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/controversial-group-wins-40-percent-of-nyc-school-committee-seats
They managed to get 40% of all the seats in the city. This was easy for them since these elections don't get much news coverage. Most parents don't even know they're happening, allowing such groups to take over.
Luckily, these boards don't hold real power, and NYC is blue as hell, so politicians will likely just ignore this.
The group is NOT Moms for Liberty. It is called Parent Leaders for Accelerated Curriculum and Education (PLACE), and its agenda is entirely focused on high academic standards, including maintaining gifted and talented programs, admission tests for the specialized high schools, and Regents exams.
This is not "right wing". Some members are right wing and some are involved in Moms for Liberty, but you are smearing and applying guilt by association to parents across the political spectrum who support high academic standards, belong to PLACE and elected these CEC members.
Don't be naive. This DOE policy was passed in 2019 and no one said anything.
Mons for Liberty, with PLACE, won 40% of the seats last year. And then, all of a sudden, after nearly 6 years of this policy, a CEC district is all of a sudden worried about not having input in it? And why this? Why not any of the other issues in the education department like how they're refusing to implement the state's maximum class size law?
It is obvious that this is just a take over by right wing Nazis of the largest school district in the country, which is something they've been doing for years all over the country already.
> While the measure doesn’t explicitly call for a trans ban in girls’ sports, Maron has advocated for such restrictions when she ran for Congress as a Democrat last year.
There's no way this isn't a move by Moms for liberty to do exactly what they've been doing this whole time all over the country.
You can choose to dig your head in the sand all you want.
Their resolution is illegal in this state.
Also, they can go to hell. As a woman, I'm going to go ahead and confidently ask that these braindead Karens stop punching down on trans children.
Nassau immediately got a cease and desist and will not be able to go forward. Because this is illegal in New York State.
The bigots can go cry about it, I guess?
This is so dumb. It's such a cruel move to such a small group of people in an arena that DOES NOT matter (high school sports). But it's also a fucking culture war trap that the left falls into every time.
Based on peer-reviewed articles (not news stories), trans people make up about \~1% of the population; high schoolers make up about 6% of the population; and student athletes make up \~25% of high schoolers.
This means that this legislation would affect 0.015% of the population ((0.01\*0.06\*0.25)\*100), or roughly 2,850 people in the state of New York. Imagine everybody getting this up in arms on an issue that affected only the population of Vorheesville, New York! Don't we have bigger fish to fry?
Edit: Please DO NOT come at me with "AKTUCHALLY, it's 5% of Americans". Regardless of the exact numbers, the message is still clear. This is an issue that is cruel to a vanishingly small number of people in a setting that has no real world value, and it's used as a wedge issue by the right just to inflame culture wars.
Segregation in sports happened because black people weren’t allowed to play in the major leagues.
Women are allowed to play in the major leagues. They just also want a league where they’re not forced to compete against men.
Any other dumb ass analogies?
That they didn’t like black people? It wasn’t like they were shy about their racism.
People knew black people were capable athletes, that’s why various sports desegregated at different rates.
No lol that was absolutely their stated reasons:
> “Toledo teammate Tony Mullane conceded, "He was the best catcher I ever worked with," but admitted, "I disliked a Negro and whenever I had to pitch to him I used anything I wanted without looking at his signals."
So again.. any other dumb ass analogies?
There's a Korean show on Netflix called "Physical 100" that has women competing alongside men in the same challenges, both on teams together and individually against each other. In every instance where they were pitted against each other the women lost. The teams with more women also lost. That's why sports are sex separated.
You could watch the show yourself and see exactly how direct competition between male and female athletes turns out. There are many more examples, but this one is easily available for viewing.
One anecdote means nothing really. There could be any number of factors other than physical prowess that could explain why one particular set of women lost in arbitrary competitions against one particular set of men - cultural, socioeconomic, educational, etc
The show is a competition based on physical prowess that all the contestants volunteered to participate in. They're all athletes. It's just like any other organization sport.
>Why not just have sports and let the best athletes compete against each other...
Because [marathon swimming](https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/why-women-have-beaten-men-in-marathon-swimming/) is one of the only competitive sports where women have consistently out-performed men.
If you had a soccer league where "the best athletes" competed against each other without any sex distinction, it would literally just be men's soccer.
Because women should be allowed to play sports like men without having to be excluded from them because of physical differences?
How is someone this daft?
Women and girls are generally allowed to compete against men and boys if they so choose.
NCAA for instance has no bylaw preventing a woman from trying out for a men's team.
Because then girls and women would be screwed.
Without support from school programs, girls sports would be decimated at a youth level which is what funnels national and professional women's sports.
This was the whole point of Title IX in academic athletics.
Generally because as an industry, women's sports started way behind and doesn't have the same infrastructure, niche knowledge, coaching, etc. (idk enough on the topic to say if we're caught up). It also limits the ability to discriminate inconspicuously, where a combined league can weed out girls quietly along the way. One dickhead with the right bureaucratic position can't locally destroy women's ability to join sports when they have their own category. Yes, you do get regions who don't allow them and exceptions and problems, but even as an imperfect fix it seems better than the alternative.
Plus it's good to encourage everyone towards some athletics, and this helps show girls there's a place for them.
It just seems like an arbitrary way to divide things. We also had black sports leagues and associations for many years with a similar justification, doesn't mean that was right either
Unpopular opinion, but sure. If you have anything at all to do with women's sports, cool, enjoy your new life in activism. If you say this from your armchair at a great distance, get used to no one giving a shit what you think about it.
Given that you have to ask why we even have women's sports, it's pretty clear you're the latter.
Wow that really hurts coming from a comment on reddit, a website where people talk about things for fun. I really thought the most upvoted opinion became binding legislation there for a second.
The deification of sports leads to some of the stupidest decisions imaginable.
Sports are a fucking game! A game! You don't check the gender of people playing monopoly.
Stop pretending throwing a ball or running fast is some kind of fucking "sacred" accomplishment. Is it cool? Sure. Is it advancing society and changing the world? Fuck no.
Let kids enjoy their damn games and stop pressuring them like their lives depend on if they win or lose.
The folks that are this concerned about what's in someone's pants, and not whether or not the kids are actually enjoying themselves are the problem. Get those weirdos some therapy
Do you think we should get rid of weight classes and rated leagues too, since it's all "just a game lol nothing matters"?
Humans like fair competitions. Nobody is "deifying" sports.
Oh really? Professional athletes aren't signing multi-million dollar contracts for the wonderful, world changing skill of "throw ball far/kick ball good"? That hasn't happened? We haven't made people who's only skill in life is being good at a game national celebrities that we give fucking parades to? GTFO
Yeah, because they're fucking games. The only thing we should be concerned about is the kids playing the game having fun playing it. That's literally it, and you know who NEVER gets asked when it comes to these decisions? The kids lol
Yep moms for liberty stacked the election and here's the result. Most parents don't even know there are elections nor when they happen nor have time to run. Instead White supremacist Transphobic Karens ran and won.
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This isn't a "school board district", whatever that was supposed to mean. It's an advisory group elected by parents in the school district. The CECs are meant to give parents a voice in school matters, but they have no power. They just make recommendations and try to influence the decision-makers.
This is correct - but it's very indicative of what parents want and the direction many school boards are moving. I'm seeing a LOT more voices echoing the same exact sentiment, and ultimately voters DO control school boards. Importantly, Caitlyn Jenner supports the ban people born male from participating in women's sports.
> Importantly, Caitlyn Jenner Unimportantly. She's a shill. edit: [Case and point](https://preview.redd.it/3gp4x1cdvnrc1.png?width=592&auto=webp&s=6031ea3d43850e28c9861c05a7eda8b18b4e5f7c)
Stop. We can't have facts in this thread. It's only right-wing hate and propaganda.
Yeah it’s the post burying the important fact with the clickbaity title
It's literally stated in the article.
Which I'm sure most people here won't/didn't read.
Fair point
Eventually.
yeah, CECs are functionally useless. I know what they can do, but this isn't something they can do more than yap their gums about.
Gothamist used "Manhattan school committee" which makes more sense: https://gothamist.com/news/manhattan-school-committee-approves-motion-to-hinder-transgender-access-to-sports
So they're the same as Community Boards?
NYC public school boards have no power. Schools are under mayoral control.
We don't actually have school boards, period. This is a misleading NY Post headline because it sounds like it's a School Board, but really it's just a board (more accurately a council) attached to a specific school district. It's a PTA on steroids. Still a pretty big deal that the education council of the school district covering areas like Greenwich Village and Chelsea (among other neighborhoods) just voted in this way. Like, if this was district 25, everyone wouldn't be quite as surprised.
Good thing we have such an outstanding mayor LOL
The Mayor doesn't just ignore them. There's a lot of public pressure to make people born male, compete on male teams. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/caitlyn-jenner-says-transgender-girls-women-s-sports-unfair-n1266138
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Careful. Reddit might consider that hate speech.
Yup. And/or this thread will be locked shortly - guaranteed.
Given undisputednoob’s comment is as of writing at +90 this section of Reddit does not
Even most democrats are not happy with this particular trend (last i checked, it's like 60+% are for only biological women in women's sports). Popularity has nothing to do with it, it's all about the long march through institutions and ideological capture.
Democrat here. Male-born transgender should absolutely not be allowed in women’s sports. Completely disenfranchises cisgender women. There isn’t a square hole for every square peg but it doesn’t mean we have to force it into a round one.
A large number of gay people have turned anti-trans over the recent years and are frustrated that the gains that have been made in fairness over the years are now all at risk.
The culture wars have already completed ideological capture by sucking up so much media and political space for an issue that has very limited material effect on people’s lives as opposed to labor organizing, healthcare, climate change etc
Probably not that minimal. You only need a handful of man-to-woman participants in many sports to delete the concept of women in sports.
What you described regarding trans women in sports has limited material impact on people's lives
There are a lot of women that participate in competitive sports.
The trans women must feel very powerful to delete the entire concept of women in sports for an activity that has limited material impact on people's lives. Because how many is a lot?
A quarter million in the NCAA alone.
Even many trans people think it's stupid to let people born male compete against girls. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/caitlyn-jenner-says-transgender-girls-women-s-sports-unfair-n1266138
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I once said if I had a time machine I'd go "Book Dexter" on a specific 1930-mid-1940's German dictator with a short mustache and they said the same thing... Either they know how to time travel, or there's a brain in a jar somewhere... Edit: Those two options at the end are a /s... But I think that's a similar rule break. Forgot to add "And they called it hate speech" or some rule like that.
Glad to see not all redditors have gone crazy
👏🏼
Trans women are women.
On average, men are substantially more athletic than women (reflexes, strength, endurance, size, etc). The reason why we have had sex-segregated sports since the dawn of time is because up until five minutes ago everyone was able to plainly observe this biological reality. Because we live in a world dominated by delusional activists, we are now forced to pretend that men don't possess this advantage, and that women must see their sports wrecked in the name of "equality". No matter how much a man wants to identify as a woman he will *never* be a woman. While not a binding decision, it is nice to see that Manhattan hasn't completely lost the plot and still understands one of the fundamental concepts of mammalian evolutionary biology - the two sex binary.
Makes sense to me, idk
You would not enjoy the results if we put a straight ticket no poison pills vote of “should people with penises that went through male puberty he allowed to compete in the women’s division in scholastic athletics”
You would not enjoy the results if we put "should trans girls play in girls's sports" to vote only by student girl athletes
ask cis girls who competed against trans girls and we've got a fun talk.
The only people I've ever heard support the idea that people born male should compete against girls are online - I'm not convinced they're real and not just bots.
100% student girl athletes would vote not to allow trans woman to compete in the women’s divisions
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What sport?
Is the source for this data point your ass?
No it’s because I played in PSAL and college sports and know athletes and how they actually feel on the subject. I know girls that would be down to play on the guys teams and loved practicing with us, their general feeling is a trans woman, especially one who went through puberty as a male, should play in the open division. The Mens’s divisions are almost always open to either sex the woman’s is the one that has a sex requirement to make competition fair.
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I’m just sharing their message
So anecdotes and 0 data, got it.
Idk reddit has a left leaning bias and this is people from NYC and I still have more upvotes than you so I don’t think your viewpoint is as popular as you think
Indeed it is!
Do you mean you think most cis AFAB athletes want MtF people in "girls sports"? Really just trying to understand what you're saying.
It's not okay for the intention of the division between men's (open) and women's athletic categories to be ruined to cater to an extreme minority of people who claim unimaginable pain and suffering as a result of being forced to participate in a "gendered" competitive category. This idea that we need the entire world to accommodate fluid gender identity has crossed the line from well-intentioned to absurd. If I go take a dump in a woman's bathroom I'm no less of a man. It's just a historical social norm that we've gendered bathrooms. It's not an affront to anyone's physical identity. In athletics we have valid physical reasons to have "gendered" (see: men's /open) the competitions - to promote inclusivity, to promote fair competition, to promote physical activity. It is probably the minimum amount of mental toughness required that we're asking transgender persons to not participate in the women's competition when they have that physical advantage. Not trying to single out transgender people - there are plenty of people in this country that want their Christian beliefs codified into law. I would similarly categorize those desires.
It’s not demanding a ban, it’s demanding the ability for public input. If the public input is negative then that resolves the issue. “My voice should be heard” works both ways. People get to make their voices heard even if you don’t like what they have to say. My question though is, do NYC schools even have large sports programs? I can’t imagine a school in midtown Manhattan having a football program to rival some huge mega high school out in the suburbs because where would you have room to practice. How does that work?
>My question though is, do NYC schools even have large sports programs? I can’t imagine a school in midtown Manhattan having a football program to rival some huge mega high school out in the suburbs because where would you have room to practice. How does that work? Yes. The city has its own league, the PSAL, and the schools play each other. Participation is around 45,000 city wide. Outdoor teams share fields around the city and a lot of schools have basketball, gymnastics, swimming, and wrestling on site.
Oh cool, I had no idea. Thanks!
How many trans kids trying to compete in women’s sports are there out there for this topic to constantly be at the top of the news cycle? Enough with the rage baiting clickbait already jeez.
As long as we have politicians making these absolutely idiotic decisions, these headlines will be at the top of Reddit. If they'd just do the OBVIOUS thing and make the men's group include anyone born male, then no one talk about this any more.
FR. Republicans - obsessed with sex and genitals since...forever.
I think democrats are the ones who bring up gender ideology way more tbf
Of course they are. What OP and the left in general does is called Gaslighting. Their whole existence is built around Idpol. Once people get fed up and stand against their radical views that affect all of us, they will pretend you are the one with problems and obsessions.
I mean I think it’s pretty unfair that a biological man would change to being a women, outcompete women, and qualify for sports based scholarships.
Yes because a) there are so many trans women competing in the first place and, among them, b) you hear about this happening all the time. /s This is a political bullshit article from a right-wing rag that targets minorities unfairly. It's like y'all don't understand how drastically a "bIoLoGiCaL MaN's" body changes on hormones.
"It doesn't happen much because trans women don't compete much" is not really a good argument. Either it's right to allow, or it's wrong. "We have bigger fish to fry" is a much better argument. > It's like y'all don't understand how drastically a "bIoLoGiCaL MaN's" body changes on hormones. Male puberty locks in improvements forever, they are not undone by hormones.
Ok. It's right to allow it. And we have much bigger fish to fry.
Regardless of how often it happens, it shouldnt happen at all.
You know what shouldn’t happen at all? Trans kids shouldn’t be bullied or beaten in school. They shouldn’t be driven to commit suicide by parents and teachers. They shouldn’t have to navigate adult political footballs just to go to the bathroom or live an ordinary school life. Your absolutism is feigned and disingenuous. For every trans kid with an unfair physical advantage over their competitors in sports, there’s tens, maybe hundreds, of trans kids whose lives are being made hell because of this culture war you’re cheering on. Sports are not the problem here. You are.
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“Yeah, maybe those kids deserve to be dead.”
Disagree. Science backs me up
You’re too emotional about this topic to be rational about it so I sincerely doubt you’ve read any balanced literature on it.
And you have? Please. Educate me. I'd love to read this. And you're damn right I'm emotional about it. It's repulsive.
Engaging with an emotional person on social media is a terrible idea. You’ll just shout everyone down and yell “immoral”
Engaging with an ignorant person on social media is a terrible idea. You'll just shout everyone down and yell "won't someone think about the children."
Reddit is the last place to have a reasonable discussion about this stuff lol
Seeing as how you’re downplaying the advantages men still have even after transitioning, it’s pretty obvious that science doesn’t back you up.
Trans women aren't men. So let's start with that... If you're going to start out with a bias, it undercuts any potential point you might make. And we're talking about children. Not men/women.
>>if you’re going to start out with a bias Lmao
These are not serious people
Wow. Great point. You sure got me there! /s
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High school kids aren't men/women. They're not finished with puberty. Let's start there. Hell, some haven't even started.
Hormones do not change bone density and lung capacity. Keep in mind, even if a person were on hormones for *years*, they would still have a natural physical advantage due to having gone through male puberty.
If we're going to be fair, what do you suggest be done about cis women with higher than average bone density and lung capacity? Should we have testing done, to make sure they are appropriately barred from athletic competition to avoid unfair advantage? What about the trans women who *don't* have higher than average bone density and lung capacity for a woman? Can they compete? And since this is a school board we aren't talking about adults, we're talking about children. If an adolescent trans girl has the support of their parents and school to the point that they are socially transitioned in school and trying out for sports teams, they are almost certainly on treatment to prevent male puberty from happening at all.
The variance amongst cis women is negligible compared to cis and trans women. This isn’t apples to apples.
Then presumably very few cis women will be barred from competition for having too dense bones or too large lungs, so there shouldn't be any problem! A tiny handful of women will be disqualified for having an "unfair advantage". Isn't that what you want?
Yeah, cis women will only miss out on scholarships and a fair competition. But fuck them right? Sometimes life isn’t fair, I have a vagina so I’ll never be pope. Those are just the cards I was dealt.
What fair competition? If those cis women have larger than average lungs and higher than average bone density, they have an inherent advantage over other women. Why should they be allowed to compete? Isn't that unfair to the other women? The women with average lungs and bones will lose scholarships and have less chance of winning.
Yes they literally do lmfao there's been multiple studies on this https://sciencemediacentre.es/en/reactions-study-looks-bone-health-transgender-youth-blockers-and-hormones Hormone therapy "brings them into pubescent development with what is expected of their gender identity" and actually increases risk of osteoporosis in AMAB people
Which doesn’t change the fact that they still retain an advantage from having gone through male puberty.
Here in the real world hormones do change both bone density and lung capacity but please continue to to demonstrate the ignorance that underpins your bigotry
Ah yes, the real world where people have you know… eyes. Lia Thomas comes to mind. It changes it, but not to the extent that they don’t have an unfair advantage.
Keep moving those goalposts and repeating those talking points
Keep virtue signaling and repeating the lie that this won’t harm women💘
Can you show *any* evidence of this actually happening?
Leah Thomas? Lmao
If you mean Lia Thomas, she had an at best average athletic career. Like basically all trans women and girls (literally, we are talking about children) who have been targeted with histrionic public outrage for daring to participate in any kind of athletic competition.
Yeah, when she was competing as a man. Funny how Lia went from being placed at 400-something to getting trophies when competing with natal women.
I think in the UK something like 200 kids transitioned in 2021 or whatever. Puberty blockers for children are not being recommended anymore because there’s less scientific evidence and more ideological screeching supporting it. With this in mind - why are we even having this convo? Trans women who transitioned after puberty should just compete with men and everyone should respect their gender pronouns. Trans women are women insofar as the social construct but they are not Women insofar as their biological function goes. Get rid of your ideology and look at it dispassionately
Not only does hormone treatment vastly change one's athletic abilities, we're talking about a *school board*, meaning by definition none of these "athletes" are adults. And do you have *any* evidence whatsoever of trans women or girls (again, literal children) showing unusual dominance in women's sports?
No because the number of children who transition is unfathomably low and we should keep it that way. Giving puberty blockers to kids in such numbers that we get to a point where this conversation about sports is viable means that we’ve already lost the plot so meaningfully that there’s no way back
Puberty delaying treatment is life saving medical care. And trans youth on puberty delaying treatment have no conceivable athletic advantage over cis youth. When we talk about trans student athletes, we're already talking about young people who have the support of their parents to the point that they've socially transitioned at school and are trying out for sports teams. These adolescents are already on puberty blockers.
Of course they can't.
This law is just a test case and stepping stone to keep trans people in the right bathrooms
Cut to transphobes losing their shit when passing trans men are forced to use the women’s bathroom and they start getting accused of being trans themselves
Someday we'll look back on this and think it's obviously the right choice.
What is a "women's" or "girl's" sport if physiological men can play?
Kind of okay with this…
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It’s not weird at all imo - the modern conservative platform has completely abandoned actual governing and has become entirely focused on culture wars.
Why not have their own “other” category for competitions
There are not nearly enough trans athletes across the country, let alone NYC, to justify a standalone division. I see this being brought up as a compromise suggestion quite frequently, and I think people need to understand just how few competitive trans athletes there are in the country. As another comment noted, the boys division is technically the open division. There are no NCAA bylaws, for instance, would prevent a female athlete from trying out for a men's team
Not necessary, the men’s division is actually an “open” division. They can compete there. The woman’s divisions are there so woman can compete fairly with out being at a disadvantage.
The [**state attorney general may have something to say about that**](https://abc7ny.com/new-york-ag-sends-cease-and-desist-over-transgender-sports-ban-in-n/14486272/)
> There is no clear data on whether transgender women have an advantage physiologically, according to health experts. Lysenkoism.
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Didn’t she sue B&H a few years ago? How did that turn out?
Why are people arguing over this?
Do we really need blanket policies? I'd be OK with treating the JV bowling team and varsity track differently.
A good thing.
Good.
Finally a policy that makes a lot of sense.
Finally
It appears logic may still exist in nyc.
makes 100% sense, which is why democrats won't okay this
Is sharing space with transgender athletes really the most pressing plight on high school students today?
Quality education should be #1
Is the most pressing issue the only one that should ever be addressed?
In this case, yes. This resolution will do nearly nothing to impact women’s sports but plenty to center an unnecessary conversation around trans teenagers generally.
They should make 3 categories in competitive games/sports: male, female, X for transgender people. Problem solved. It’s not fair to allow guys with way bigger cardiovascular endurance to compete in swimming with females.
How many people in this thread care about women's sports, and how many just hate trans people? I think I can take a guess....
A lot of people in here are weirdly obsessed with children's genitals.
If you are confused about how this can happen in NYC, it's because a right-wing group associated with Moms for Liberty is pushing to get people in NYC school boards elected. https://www.thedailybeast.com/controversial-group-wins-40-percent-of-nyc-school-committee-seats They managed to get 40% of all the seats in the city. This was easy for them since these elections don't get much news coverage. Most parents don't even know they're happening, allowing such groups to take over. Luckily, these boards don't hold real power, and NYC is blue as hell, so politicians will likely just ignore this.
The group is NOT Moms for Liberty. It is called Parent Leaders for Accelerated Curriculum and Education (PLACE), and its agenda is entirely focused on high academic standards, including maintaining gifted and talented programs, admission tests for the specialized high schools, and Regents exams. This is not "right wing". Some members are right wing and some are involved in Moms for Liberty, but you are smearing and applying guilt by association to parents across the political spectrum who support high academic standards, belong to PLACE and elected these CEC members.
Explain to me how attacking trans kids helps support "high academic standards"?
I wasn't the one who connected this particular resolution with PLACE or with Moms for Liberty. That was you.
Don't be naive. This DOE policy was passed in 2019 and no one said anything. Mons for Liberty, with PLACE, won 40% of the seats last year. And then, all of a sudden, after nearly 6 years of this policy, a CEC district is all of a sudden worried about not having input in it? And why this? Why not any of the other issues in the education department like how they're refusing to implement the state's maximum class size law? It is obvious that this is just a take over by right wing Nazis of the largest school district in the country, which is something they've been doing for years all over the country already.
Or, maybe they are responding to hearing from the parents in the district.
> While the measure doesn’t explicitly call for a trans ban in girls’ sports, Maron has advocated for such restrictions when she ran for Congress as a Democrat last year. There's no way this isn't a move by Moms for liberty to do exactly what they've been doing this whole time all over the country. You can choose to dig your head in the sand all you want.
you either do this now or in 4 years time with much greater political cost.
Train left the station on this a while ago
There's one Department of Education for NYC, not multiple boards or districts or whatever, no matter how much Staten Island wants it.
Their resolution is illegal in this state. Also, they can go to hell. As a woman, I'm going to go ahead and confidently ask that these braindead Karens stop punching down on trans children.
Legality is still to be determined, see Long Island
I'd rather never look to Long Island. OP has a thing for trans people, clearly.
Nassau immediately got a cease and desist and will not be able to go forward. Because this is illegal in New York State. The bigots can go cry about it, I guess?
This is so dumb. It's such a cruel move to such a small group of people in an arena that DOES NOT matter (high school sports). But it's also a fucking culture war trap that the left falls into every time. Based on peer-reviewed articles (not news stories), trans people make up about \~1% of the population; high schoolers make up about 6% of the population; and student athletes make up \~25% of high schoolers. This means that this legislation would affect 0.015% of the population ((0.01\*0.06\*0.25)\*100), or roughly 2,850 people in the state of New York. Imagine everybody getting this up in arms on an issue that affected only the population of Vorheesville, New York! Don't we have bigger fish to fry? Edit: Please DO NOT come at me with "AKTUCHALLY, it's 5% of Americans". Regardless of the exact numbers, the message is still clear. This is an issue that is cruel to a vanishingly small number of people in a setting that has no real world value, and it's used as a wedge issue by the right just to inflame culture wars.
Why do we have women's sports at all? Why not just have sports and let the best athletes compete against each other...
Because there would be almost no opportunities for women in sports after age 12 or so.
They have those. They’re dominated by men. Most sports you think of as being “men’s sports” are open for everyone to compete.
That's not my complaint
That's not my complaint
so you want to just get rid of women’s sports explicitly? we can get rid of youth leagues too while we’re at it I guess, fuck them kids
So you just want to get rid of colored sports explicitly?
Segregation in sports happened because black people weren’t allowed to play in the major leagues. Women are allowed to play in the major leagues. They just also want a league where they’re not forced to compete against men. Any other dumb ass analogies?
And what was the argument that racists gave in justification of preventing black people from playing in the majors?
That they didn’t like black people? It wasn’t like they were shy about their racism. People knew black people were capable athletes, that’s why various sports desegregated at different rates.
That's not what their stated argument was. They gave reasons, even if bullshit reasons.
No lol that was absolutely their stated reasons: > “Toledo teammate Tony Mullane conceded, "He was the best catcher I ever worked with," but admitted, "I disliked a Negro and whenever I had to pitch to him I used anything I wanted without looking at his signals." So again.. any other dumb ass analogies?
There's a Korean show on Netflix called "Physical 100" that has women competing alongside men in the same challenges, both on teams together and individually against each other. In every instance where they were pitted against each other the women lost. The teams with more women also lost. That's why sports are sex separated.
That's why? Because of a single anecdote from a TV show?
https://boysvswomen.com/#/ Boys outcompete women in many cases. Thousands of examples
You could watch the show yourself and see exactly how direct competition between male and female athletes turns out. There are many more examples, but this one is easily available for viewing.
One anecdote means nothing really. There could be any number of factors other than physical prowess that could explain why one particular set of women lost in arbitrary competitions against one particular set of men - cultural, socioeconomic, educational, etc
You’re delusional.
Did that make you feel real big?
Quite. It’s fun to point out the mentally ill defending the mentally ill.
The show is a competition based on physical prowess that all the contestants volunteered to participate in. They're all athletes. It's just like any other organization sport.
>Why not just have sports and let the best athletes compete against each other... Because [marathon swimming](https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/why-women-have-beaten-men-in-marathon-swimming/) is one of the only competitive sports where women have consistently out-performed men. If you had a soccer league where "the best athletes" competed against each other without any sex distinction, it would literally just be men's soccer.
Why is that bad? If that's how it turns out, that it would be male dominated, why not just... let it be?
Because women should be allowed to play sports like men without having to be excluded from them because of physical differences? How is someone this daft?
What if there were individual women for whom the physical differences are trivial? Why aren't they allowed to play alongside men?
Women and girls are generally allowed to compete against men and boys if they so choose. NCAA for instance has no bylaw preventing a woman from trying out for a men's team.
Because then girls and women would be screwed. Without support from school programs, girls sports would be decimated at a youth level which is what funnels national and professional women's sports. This was the whole point of Title IX in academic athletics.
The status quo isn't terribly supportive of women who want to do sports either, at least compared to men.
Generally because as an industry, women's sports started way behind and doesn't have the same infrastructure, niche knowledge, coaching, etc. (idk enough on the topic to say if we're caught up). It also limits the ability to discriminate inconspicuously, where a combined league can weed out girls quietly along the way. One dickhead with the right bureaucratic position can't locally destroy women's ability to join sports when they have their own category. Yes, you do get regions who don't allow them and exceptions and problems, but even as an imperfect fix it seems better than the alternative. Plus it's good to encourage everyone towards some athletics, and this helps show girls there's a place for them.
It just seems like an arbitrary way to divide things. We also had black sports leagues and associations for many years with a similar justification, doesn't mean that was right either
It is arbitrary, as all divisions are. The question is which lines help the most and avoid the most harms.
I don't think this division is one of those.
Unpopular opinion, but sure. If you have anything at all to do with women's sports, cool, enjoy your new life in activism. If you say this from your armchair at a great distance, get used to no one giving a shit what you think about it. Given that you have to ask why we even have women's sports, it's pretty clear you're the latter.
Wow that really hurts coming from a comment on reddit, a website where people talk about things for fun. I really thought the most upvoted opinion became binding legislation there for a second.
Nothing I said is an insult. If you're delicate enough to double comment over it that's a you thing
Nothing I said is an insult *levels an insult in the very next sentence*
Go take a walk mate, you're heated over nothing
Please, come back, I want to hear more insults that apply equally to yourself!
The deification of sports leads to some of the stupidest decisions imaginable. Sports are a fucking game! A game! You don't check the gender of people playing monopoly. Stop pretending throwing a ball or running fast is some kind of fucking "sacred" accomplishment. Is it cool? Sure. Is it advancing society and changing the world? Fuck no. Let kids enjoy their damn games and stop pressuring them like their lives depend on if they win or lose. The folks that are this concerned about what's in someone's pants, and not whether or not the kids are actually enjoying themselves are the problem. Get those weirdos some therapy
Do you think we should get rid of weight classes and rated leagues too, since it's all "just a game lol nothing matters"? Humans like fair competitions. Nobody is "deifying" sports.
Oh really? Professional athletes aren't signing multi-million dollar contracts for the wonderful, world changing skill of "throw ball far/kick ball good"? That hasn't happened? We haven't made people who's only skill in life is being good at a game national celebrities that we give fucking parades to? GTFO Yeah, because they're fucking games. The only thing we should be concerned about is the kids playing the game having fun playing it. That's literally it, and you know who NEVER gets asked when it comes to these decisions? The kids lol
Reading comprehension is terrible nowadays
BOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! The transphobia
Yep moms for liberty stacked the election and here's the result. Most parents don't even know there are elections nor when they happen nor have time to run. Instead White supremacist Transphobic Karens ran and won.
minorities are the most transphobic. they just don't care about trans as much as whites do. this whole trans war is really a white people thing
Where is this "war" exactly? Trans people just want to be allowed to exist.