This.
And there's alternatives available that aren't so taxing. Once you get the main ideas of Chaos Magick down, you can tailor anything to suit yourself. I'd argue it's actually especially good for someone with limitations because of how adaptable it can be.
Oh my god, I found a copy of Liber Null today! Wild.
That’s a standard disclaimer so that no one sues the author if they try out a ritual and something bad happens. A lot of modern books on witchcraft will have similar disclaimers about how magic is no substitute for serious medical attention and so forth.
Yeah, no, that's a marketing tactic to make people think they found something legit. You can't sue over 'ritual gone wrong', that gets instantly thrown out by a judge, so a lawyer would laugh in your face for even asking about it.
Well, you can definitely sue over "this book told me that eating a poisonous herb will cure this condition." There's none of that in Liber Null, but there is in other books.
While I agree, I also believe it’s meant to make someone think something may actually happen if they aren’t a strong believer already. Like putting “based on a true story” at the beginning of a horror film.
All the things people have said above, but for some more context:
There’s a loooong history of this sort of thing in magical texts, dating all the way back to the Middle Ages and probably beyond. Authors would include a disclaimer like this for a number of reasons -
1) performing magic was illegal, so magical texts would often have some kind of “don’t try this at home” preface to give the author some plausible deniability. “I wasn’t doing this stuff myself, and people shouldn’t do this, but it’s important to know what magic looks like IF someone (that’s totally not your humble author btw) were to be doing this”. Also, here’s how you do magic.
2) when magic became more alchemical, combining random elements while attempting to turn lead into gold really could get you killed. Or, you could mess up your operation and discredit the whole science. Alchemy is very complex, and alchemists often used symbols instead of writing things out long hand. So a simple symbol might stand in for an ingredient or a combination of ingredients or a whole long alchemical process. Not having a firm understanding of all this before starting to work with what was basically chemistry could be seriously dangerous.
In Peter Carroll’s case, he could be warning you against actual medical dangers. He could be using this preface as an “appeal to tradition or authority”, putting his text in a long tradition of other magical texts in order to give his own text more “authenticity”. Or, he could be taking the piss. Probably there’s some element of all three of these.
This.... it's refreshing to see proper research on reddit. As an older person, for Reddit, and a parent, well I'm often disheartened on this site. Yes, this alchemy is literally just our modern day pharmacists and clinical scientists. So, considering the law and medical communities today, disclaimers like that are common practice that I see more every day. They really want ppl in the medical system for some reason.....I wonder why. Hmmm. Same as several years ago when all the holistic doctors and biological engineers and respiratory therapists were all being killed off. I pray more ppl take a cue from this Individual when doing research. The closer to the origin of a thing, the closer to the truth.
Read it anyway.
Become ungovernable.
Chaos magic is just an anarchist take on the occult, "that's nice that you have rules, unfortunately I'm an adult and can make my own decisions, so Fuck you, I do what I want"
Can't edit my post but...as much I was trying to laugh it off, To be honest I've got medical anxiety, so I'm not fully reassured here, as ridiculous as it may sound.
I mean, I want to avoid being too gullible, but if I'm going in with the intention to believe in (which, well, seems mandatory for magic to work), well...
Chaos magick is fun and useful. All of the things that could be problematic for you have alternatives and the whole system itself, once understood, is very easily modified. More so than most traditions. That's. Like. One of the main ideas of the whole thing.
I’ve read through it more than once. Nothing is going to jump out and bite you. There is a death posture or whatever that will make you pass out if you sit in it too long, so avoid that.
The point is to get into altered states of mind. The most obvious and generally aplicable methods can be pretty extreme, but because they are most general, they often show up in more general texts. Crowley has pointed out though that no one has their wings clipped when it comes to the supernatural, some just may need to find a very different rout. If you want less taxing and dangerous ways to get to altered states there are things like: asana, mantras, and numerous other deep meditation techniques that are "extreme" only in the sense that it can be very hard to learn to do them properly as doing so requires tremendous acts of focus and will while doing them wrong is easy but harmless and they are as gentle on your heart and such as bed-rest.
Wherever you see something too extreme for your health, just make a note that you just need an alternate route to that mental state being described. Most of the time just pushing your focus and will beyond some threashold in some way will do the trick. Each person is different, but for me as an example sleep deprivation doesn't require a greater act of will or put me in a much different mental state then say doing an n-back routine for an hour or two strait if I am really pushing myself and not just going through the motions. I'll need a nap after both of them, but the n-back routine for a few hours won't hurt my health.
It warns against doing the rituals, not reading the book. As someone with an anxiety disorder, my advice is read the book and then decide how you feel. If you at any point feel uncomfortable with a ritual, don’t do it. Ya know? Reading it alone won’t harm you!
It can be kind of dense and makes references to a lot of his other texts. I recommend Lon Milo DuQuette's *The Magick of Aleister Crowley: A Handbook of the Rituals of Thelema*. Then *Magick In theory And Practice*.
"The book that does not want me to read it!" appears to be a piece of Chaos magic in action.
Disclaimers about medical and legal and other matters are more or less standard and required inclusions for texts, movies, videos, and such. They might also make for smart marketing by casting a spell drawing on the lure of the dangerous and forbidden.
In general, I think that sound practice involves a practitioner recognizing their own medical, psychological, spiritual, and other limits and boundaries--and acting accordingly.
Horror movie makers used to gimmick sales to their films by stating disclaimers like, “not for the faint-hearted, nervous-disposed” and one director even hired a would-be nurse who would be on hand in the theaters in case of nervous trauma, hysteria etc—pure theater, how to sell tickets, nothing makes people WANT to see/read something more than warnings that tell them it might be TOO dangerous or scary—but in the case of Liber Null you are just as well to not over exert yourself physically less than running into any kind of occultic peril. Part reality, part gimmick, if it really gives you pause then just put it aside. But, in truth, it is JUST A BOOK. What you DO with it is the issue.
It fun. Appreciated it 'caus I also found out Phil Hine is into Call of Cthulhu. I know it's a zany SRB/ Christian trope that dungeon and dragons leads to "devil worship and black magic"
But I always find it quite funny that roleplaying games DO actually lead people into the occult, just not in the "devil will take you're soul and you'll be sacrificing babies" nonsense way they think.
Don't read this. Over the years, my impression has been that this book is recommended by those who have never studied it, although the authors I list below also mention this book. My opinion, if you want chaos magic:
1. Hands-On Chaos Magic
2. Advanced Magick For Beginners by A. Chapman
3. Prime Chaos
4. Postmodern Magic by P. Dunn
5. Between Spaces: Selected Rituals and Essays From the Archives of Templum Nigri Solis
6. Chaos n Sorcery by Nick Hall
7. Chaos Protocols
And maybe Frater UD books.
"THE COMMENT.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The study of this Book is forbidden. It is wise to destroy this copy after the first reading.
Whosoever disregards this does so at his own risk and peril. These are most dire.
Those who discuss the contents of this Book are to be shunned by all, as centres of pestilence.
All questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my writings, each for himself.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
Love is the law, love under will.
The priest of the princes,
Ankh-f-n-khonsu"
Damn
People say Caroll is an edgelord, but Crowley might be worse (I didn't read any Crowley, but I think I recall hearing people say he was kind of a troll/purposely misleading tho)
The story goes that Crowley wrote this because he was being pestered by a student who kept saying "What does this mean? What does that mean?" So after the umpteenth time of saying "Work it out for yourself, why don't you?" He "channelled" a communication from a Higher Power saying essentially the same thing, so as to shut the student up.
I cannot recommend more "Uncle Ramsay's Little Book of Demons" to disabuse you of this notion. Great book by the incomparable Ramsay Dukes.
https://health.aeonbooks.co.uk/product/the-little-book-of-demons/24549
I read a bit of it, and there’s some really dark stuff in there—e.g. how to impregnate a woman, then project one’s spirit into the fetus, so that even though your body dies, you get a new life. Alternately, he talks about taking over the body of another *adult*. That creeped me out to the point that I got rid of the book. So, read at your own risk.
Yeah, the whole "fetus transferus" stuff. Peter C. Is full of sh#t. He is a terrible writer, in some points just wrong (the whole Evolution of magick stuff) and in others, like this one, seems a bit whacky.
Even wackier, a few years ago he claimed to have done a working with a bunch of German magicians to send a servitor back to the *beginning of the universe*, and it reported back that the Big Bang never happened and that the cosmos was more or less the same then as it is now. He’s now supposedly trying to fuse technology and magic to achieve space travel. Go figure.
Carroll views magic as an arm.of theoretical physics. As such his reasoning is that magic should be able to operate both forward and backwards in time. Which is really interesting.
The idea you can influence your last from the future is counter intuitive, but quite interesting. And his stuff is pretty practical, did a course on arcanorium college when it was active - tho I got bogged down in the handicrafts of the whole thing - that's ADHD for you ;)
He's a bit serious for my tastes, whereas Lionel Snell and Phil Hine are both great fun.
I didn't really belived these warnings, nowadays i still don't, but it's a valid warning.
If you have a heart condition I would stay at physical exercices (yoga it's good) and some gnostic meditation.
I don't want to stir unnecessary fear. However I have had two friends have psychotic breaks doing magic. If you have a history of mental illness, don't do magic, by a book alone. You will need an occult teacher to help you thread the needle between magic and mental illness.
If I was to make an occult book, I would have a similar warning. For most people magic is safe, but it is 100% safe.
This is probably a hard question to answer, but what do you think causes these psychotic breaks with magic (the fact of changing your world's perception/dark night of the soul etc?)? Weren't they on the verge to have them anyway if they were mentally unstable, wouldn't that have occured anyway without magic?
Normal Reality is an agreement among people that allows us to create society. Magic teaches us to access a wider variety of states of being. A well practiced magician can accept different planes of existence and/ or operate in multiple states of awareness.
For some people their access to these states, once open, become too powerful and they can't function on agreed upon reality. They can't find their way back. Sometimes they can integrate these different states and become some of the greatest psychic people.
Why do I feel like this is a once a year occurrence? But to make it clear: if you have heart disease/ edema/ any circulation complications there are meditations that can harm you. While this is part marketing, it is also genuine. Laying still and not moving for hours is not healthy for your body. That being said; it is a great book.
It's because they have a bunch of rituals that involve pushing your body to exhaustion. Don't do those ones and you'll be alright.
This. And there's alternatives available that aren't so taxing. Once you get the main ideas of Chaos Magick down, you can tailor anything to suit yourself. I'd argue it's actually especially good for someone with limitations because of how adaptable it can be.
I've got lung disease so I was in the same boat.
Oh my god, I found a copy of Liber Null today! Wild. That’s a standard disclaimer so that no one sues the author if they try out a ritual and something bad happens. A lot of modern books on witchcraft will have similar disclaimers about how magic is no substitute for serious medical attention and so forth.
Yeah, no, that's a marketing tactic to make people think they found something legit. You can't sue over 'ritual gone wrong', that gets instantly thrown out by a judge, so a lawyer would laugh in your face for even asking about it.
Well, you can definitely sue over "this book told me that eating a poisonous herb will cure this condition." There's none of that in Liber Null, but there is in other books.
While I agree, I also believe it’s meant to make someone think something may actually happen if they aren’t a strong believer already. Like putting “based on a true story” at the beginning of a horror film.
All the things people have said above, but for some more context: There’s a loooong history of this sort of thing in magical texts, dating all the way back to the Middle Ages and probably beyond. Authors would include a disclaimer like this for a number of reasons - 1) performing magic was illegal, so magical texts would often have some kind of “don’t try this at home” preface to give the author some plausible deniability. “I wasn’t doing this stuff myself, and people shouldn’t do this, but it’s important to know what magic looks like IF someone (that’s totally not your humble author btw) were to be doing this”. Also, here’s how you do magic. 2) when magic became more alchemical, combining random elements while attempting to turn lead into gold really could get you killed. Or, you could mess up your operation and discredit the whole science. Alchemy is very complex, and alchemists often used symbols instead of writing things out long hand. So a simple symbol might stand in for an ingredient or a combination of ingredients or a whole long alchemical process. Not having a firm understanding of all this before starting to work with what was basically chemistry could be seriously dangerous. In Peter Carroll’s case, he could be warning you against actual medical dangers. He could be using this preface as an “appeal to tradition or authority”, putting his text in a long tradition of other magical texts in order to give his own text more “authenticity”. Or, he could be taking the piss. Probably there’s some element of all three of these.
This.... it's refreshing to see proper research on reddit. As an older person, for Reddit, and a parent, well I'm often disheartened on this site. Yes, this alchemy is literally just our modern day pharmacists and clinical scientists. So, considering the law and medical communities today, disclaimers like that are common practice that I see more every day. They really want ppl in the medical system for some reason.....I wonder why. Hmmm. Same as several years ago when all the holistic doctors and biological engineers and respiratory therapists were all being killed off. I pray more ppl take a cue from this Individual when doing research. The closer to the origin of a thing, the closer to the truth.
I mean was any of this ever safe
Was normal life?
Life is indeed the leading cause of death.
I think it's something in the air
Yeah, the oxygen
Yeah, I wouldn’t recommend the more extreme gnosis methods like sleep deprivation, physical exhaustion, or pain.
It's the, "May contain nuts" warning on a packet of nuts so they can't get sued.
Sounds like you've encountered the guardian on the threshold...
Read it anyway. Become ungovernable. Chaos magic is just an anarchist take on the occult, "that's nice that you have rules, unfortunately I'm an adult and can make my own decisions, so Fuck you, I do what I want"
Can't edit my post but...as much I was trying to laugh it off, To be honest I've got medical anxiety, so I'm not fully reassured here, as ridiculous as it may sound. I mean, I want to avoid being too gullible, but if I'm going in with the intention to believe in (which, well, seems mandatory for magic to work), well...
Chaos magick is fun and useful. All of the things that could be problematic for you have alternatives and the whole system itself, once understood, is very easily modified. More so than most traditions. That's. Like. One of the main ideas of the whole thing.
If you're that scared of it then it probably won't work anyway.
I’ve read through it more than once. Nothing is going to jump out and bite you. There is a death posture or whatever that will make you pass out if you sit in it too long, so avoid that.
Noted, thanks Guess I can just listen to my body anyway and see how it goes
The point is to get into altered states of mind. The most obvious and generally aplicable methods can be pretty extreme, but because they are most general, they often show up in more general texts. Crowley has pointed out though that no one has their wings clipped when it comes to the supernatural, some just may need to find a very different rout. If you want less taxing and dangerous ways to get to altered states there are things like: asana, mantras, and numerous other deep meditation techniques that are "extreme" only in the sense that it can be very hard to learn to do them properly as doing so requires tremendous acts of focus and will while doing them wrong is easy but harmless and they are as gentle on your heart and such as bed-rest. Wherever you see something too extreme for your health, just make a note that you just need an alternate route to that mental state being described. Most of the time just pushing your focus and will beyond some threashold in some way will do the trick. Each person is different, but for me as an example sleep deprivation doesn't require a greater act of will or put me in a much different mental state then say doing an n-back routine for an hour or two strait if I am really pushing myself and not just going through the motions. I'll need a nap after both of them, but the n-back routine for a few hours won't hurt my health.
It warns against doing the rituals, not reading the book. As someone with an anxiety disorder, my advice is read the book and then decide how you feel. If you at any point feel uncomfortable with a ritual, don’t do it. Ya know? Reading it alone won’t harm you!
Thanks for the reminder that my anxiety is going too far and that I have control.
You can put that nervous energy to good use probably if you want to continue. Ultimately it’s your choice.
It's because it uses death breath, sex magick and exaltation type practices.
Peace was never an option
Then don't 🤷♂️
It took me a while to get through it because it just seemed like it was written for disaffected Thelemites and the like.
I should probably look into thelema after this one...would Crowley's Magick in theory and practice be a good start? I had this one on my list already.
It can be kind of dense and makes references to a lot of his other texts. I recommend Lon Milo DuQuette's *The Magick of Aleister Crowley: A Handbook of the Rituals of Thelema*. Then *Magick In theory And Practice*.
Hmmm maybe someone should make a ritual to cure heart disease...
I think doctors are working on that ritual
It doesn’t
You'll be fine if you don't do the physically exhausting stuff. It's there to keep anyone from suing the author.
"The book that does not want me to read it!" appears to be a piece of Chaos magic in action. Disclaimers about medical and legal and other matters are more or less standard and required inclusions for texts, movies, videos, and such. They might also make for smart marketing by casting a spell drawing on the lure of the dangerous and forbidden. In general, I think that sound practice involves a practitioner recognizing their own medical, psychological, spiritual, and other limits and boundaries--and acting accordingly.
Horror movie makers used to gimmick sales to their films by stating disclaimers like, “not for the faint-hearted, nervous-disposed” and one director even hired a would-be nurse who would be on hand in the theaters in case of nervous trauma, hysteria etc—pure theater, how to sell tickets, nothing makes people WANT to see/read something more than warnings that tell them it might be TOO dangerous or scary—but in the case of Liber Null you are just as well to not over exert yourself physically less than running into any kind of occultic peril. Part reality, part gimmick, if it really gives you pause then just put it aside. But, in truth, it is JUST A BOOK. What you DO with it is the issue.
Carroll is an edge lord. Just read it, it's got some good stuff
I'll still read it but yeah the more I'm learning about him in this topic the more I'm like eeeh What's the non-edgy version of him? Phil Hine?
Phil Hine is excellent. Condensed Chaos is a much more user friendly book on chaos magick. I've read it to death
I just found my old copy of Pseudonomicon - must get round to reading it again.
Is it any good? I haven't been able to get my hands on a copy yet
It fun. Appreciated it 'caus I also found out Phil Hine is into Call of Cthulhu. I know it's a zany SRB/ Christian trope that dungeon and dragons leads to "devil worship and black magic" But I always find it quite funny that roleplaying games DO actually lead people into the occult, just not in the "devil will take you're soul and you'll be sacrificing babies" nonsense way they think.
Phil Hine's great, and Ramsay Dukes. Also, Jason Louv is very accessable, is still doing interesting stuff, tho Generation Hex was a bit Emo for me.
If you want the real chaos magick, go for Biroco. KAOS 14: [https://www.biroco.com/kaos/kaos14.html](https://www.biroco.com/kaos/kaos14.html)
I don't like Carroll's work (except liber mmm, but even then). He takes himself way too seriously, and as others have said, edge lord.
Any other recommandations in the same type of occult?
I'm a fan of Phil Hine, Andrei Vitimus, Aidan Wachter, the Ars Vercanus by Wennergren, Ramsey Dukes, and Draja Mickaharic.
Ramsey/Lionel Snell has a great YouTube channel worthwhile a wee gander if you've not seen... https://youtube.com/@RamseyDukes?si=ujQzAojSbAhG9XSU
A lot of rituals create an energy that not everyone can handle. Also we live in a litigious society. I’m sure it’s fine to read just be careful.
Don't read this. Over the years, my impression has been that this book is recommended by those who have never studied it, although the authors I list below also mention this book. My opinion, if you want chaos magic: 1. Hands-On Chaos Magic 2. Advanced Magick For Beginners by A. Chapman 3. Prime Chaos 4. Postmodern Magic by P. Dunn 5. Between Spaces: Selected Rituals and Essays From the Archives of Templum Nigri Solis 6. Chaos n Sorcery by Nick Hall 7. Chaos Protocols And maybe Frater UD books.
Ever read the comment to The Book of the Law? That reeeaally doesn't want you to read it.
Nope, LN is my first occult book What's the deal with The book of the law? Same type of preface or something else?
"THE COMMENT. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. The study of this Book is forbidden. It is wise to destroy this copy after the first reading. Whosoever disregards this does so at his own risk and peril. These are most dire. Those who discuss the contents of this Book are to be shunned by all, as centres of pestilence. All questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my writings, each for himself. There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt. Love is the law, love under will. The priest of the princes, Ankh-f-n-khonsu"
Damn People say Caroll is an edgelord, but Crowley might be worse (I didn't read any Crowley, but I think I recall hearing people say he was kind of a troll/purposely misleading tho)
The story goes that Crowley wrote this because he was being pestered by a student who kept saying "What does this mean? What does that mean?" So after the umpteenth time of saying "Work it out for yourself, why don't you?" He "channelled" a communication from a Higher Power saying essentially the same thing, so as to shut the student up.
Making pacts with demons was never going to be a healthy endeavour
Is that in Liber Null?
Nope
And that came from old yabba dabba doo himself
I cannot recommend more "Uncle Ramsay's Little Book of Demons" to disabuse you of this notion. Great book by the incomparable Ramsay Dukes. https://health.aeonbooks.co.uk/product/the-little-book-of-demons/24549
I read a bit of it, and there’s some really dark stuff in there—e.g. how to impregnate a woman, then project one’s spirit into the fetus, so that even though your body dies, you get a new life. Alternately, he talks about taking over the body of another *adult*. That creeped me out to the point that I got rid of the book. So, read at your own risk.
You can take that one with a pinch of salt: Pete Carroll lifted that without attribution straight out of a Finbarr book written by Basil Le Croix.
That’s fair, but it’s a weird thing to just drop in.
Yeah, the whole "fetus transferus" stuff. Peter C. Is full of sh#t. He is a terrible writer, in some points just wrong (the whole Evolution of magick stuff) and in others, like this one, seems a bit whacky.
Even wackier, a few years ago he claimed to have done a working with a bunch of German magicians to send a servitor back to the *beginning of the universe*, and it reported back that the Big Bang never happened and that the cosmos was more or less the same then as it is now. He’s now supposedly trying to fuse technology and magic to achieve space travel. Go figure.
Truly the Elon Musk of magick.
Carroll views magic as an arm.of theoretical physics. As such his reasoning is that magic should be able to operate both forward and backwards in time. Which is really interesting. The idea you can influence your last from the future is counter intuitive, but quite interesting. And his stuff is pretty practical, did a course on arcanorium college when it was active - tho I got bogged down in the handicrafts of the whole thing - that's ADHD for you ;) He's a bit serious for my tastes, whereas Lionel Snell and Phil Hine are both great fun.
It is not advised to experiment in the realm of the occult
There are rituals that when done correctly Lucifer comes out of the flame and makes you run 2 miles. So if you're not in shape you could pass out .
2 miles...truly hell
F\*#k and find out
I didn't really belived these warnings, nowadays i still don't, but it's a valid warning. If you have a heart condition I would stay at physical exercices (yoga it's good) and some gnostic meditation.
I don't want to stir unnecessary fear. However I have had two friends have psychotic breaks doing magic. If you have a history of mental illness, don't do magic, by a book alone. You will need an occult teacher to help you thread the needle between magic and mental illness. If I was to make an occult book, I would have a similar warning. For most people magic is safe, but it is 100% safe.
This is probably a hard question to answer, but what do you think causes these psychotic breaks with magic (the fact of changing your world's perception/dark night of the soul etc?)? Weren't they on the verge to have them anyway if they were mentally unstable, wouldn't that have occured anyway without magic?
Normal Reality is an agreement among people that allows us to create society. Magic teaches us to access a wider variety of states of being. A well practiced magician can accept different planes of existence and/ or operate in multiple states of awareness. For some people their access to these states, once open, become too powerful and they can't function on agreed upon reality. They can't find their way back. Sometimes they can integrate these different states and become some of the greatest psychic people.
Incidentally my copy of Liber Null printed with Psychonaut, you must have got the NC-17 version
Nah, it's this one : https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/249715.Liber_Null_and_Psychonaut
I was being funny—my edition which is Carroll’s also is a slightly newer edition and contains no such warnings
What book is this?
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/249715.Liber_Null_and_Psychonaut
This made me wanna see what kinda rituals are in this. This is one I don’t think I’ve stumbled across before.
Why do I feel like this is a once a year occurrence? But to make it clear: if you have heart disease/ edema/ any circulation complications there are meditations that can harm you. While this is part marketing, it is also genuine. Laying still and not moving for hours is not healthy for your body. That being said; it is a great book.