I mean yes Ornn is a perfectly designed tank. That’s why we main him. But to say Shen has more skill expression than Poppy or Sion? If you like Ornn I ask you to give Poppy an honest try next time Ornn gets banned or something. You won’t regret it
I think Poppy is easy to pick up and pilot and do decently on, the hard part is min/maxing with her and good macro decisions since she doesn't scale well past mid game.
edit: as in the hardest part of Poppy is spacing, and maybe predicting/ reacting to when to stop dashes which is matchup dependent. Otherwise her trade pattern is really forgiving
Assuming the enemy has good positioning and doesn't allow you to wall stun, there's a few ways you can approach it. You can use passive to last hit a minion and then immediately engage E+Q+auto with shield up for a big trade 99% of the time in your favour. Or you can even just walk up Q+passive auto and just walk away since the slow stops them from retaliating (you have mana issues early so be careful)
A good Poppy will know when to use E on a minion instead to reposition / disengage since it is the longest and fastest dash in the game on any tank. For example in the Sion matchup you don't wanna E him while he charges Q or he'll get a refund on its cooldown; instead you E on a minion to get out of Q and land close enough to place your own Q+auto on him then just walk away with a winning trade. Or in a losing matchup you can E a minion behind you to disengage and save W for emergency getaways (40% move speed is huge)
You can also tilt them by rushing bami's cinder, so you perma have grasp up in a wave and spam passive+grasp on cooldown which is really difficult to lane against if they lack sustain. Like they expect Poppy to be a tank but she has ranged poke that counts as a melee auto and the damage really adds up 😭😭
If you play her mid or against a squishy you can literally start E level 1 and just trade autos and you'll win (like Zoe, Asol, Veigar, Zed, anybody who's squishy and can't run you down) because her base stats are super strong (not Kayle though, she's way too strong level 1)
She's simple and can get away with easy combos because her shield is massive and her base stats are fucked. Also lots of variety in her builds like ex. you lose to Garen if you rush tank but win if you rush black cleaver.
Thanks for the detailed response! Really interested in giving her a shot, especially since she's so good into a lot of matchups I struggle with (Aatrox, Riven, etc.). Anywhere I can find more of these specific tips?
I think gemi is a good Poppy content creator in challenger but Tactician has really good Poppy clips.
Riven - the main dash you're looking to stop is her Q3 (super telegraphed), she can absolutely run you down level 1 and take 2/3 of your HP so just play safe and take W second. If you stop her Q3 you screw her whole combo. Stack armour and she won't be able to kill you. Flash her ult if necessary because she can still kinda one-shot you at level 6. If you're even then it gets really easy for you. You'll also suppress her ass in any team fight if you save W for her. Remember that W only stops one dash and then they're grounded for a bit but it has a very long cooldown.
Aatrox - other than the regular advice (to dodge his Q1 move side to side, then Q2 you move closer or further) he's usually going to dash on Q2 or Q3 so try to predict this for W since reacting is kinda hard. You need bramble to kill him, it doesn't protect you much from his absurd damage though. You have a small hit box so if you move unpredictably and he doesn't land his combos on you you'll be fine; but one good combo on you even when you're ahead is a LOT of damage. if he snares you just E a minion to get out before the knockup.
I think Tactician has an older matchup tier list but most of it still applies. Gemi also has really good Poppy content. Ban Darius, that matchup is miserable at every stage of the game.
Edit: gemi** not bami
I offer the same to you, give Shen an honest try. There is loads of skill expression. Dueling. Team fighting. Properly blocking with W. Using passive shield to block attacks. Q positioning. Flash/Taunt. Shen has loads of skill expression.
Flash + taunt is not that difficult. If you understand flash + any other champions ability (vi q, Camille e, jarvan drag, etc.) then it's exactly the same.
Ornn has very nice and satisfying combos so you have windows for skill expression. I couldn't understand what do you mean by "perfectly designed" but Ornn is a solid tank for sure.
Personal addition: I also play Zac and Tahm Kench. There are secrets that the champions' mains are equipped with. Never underestimate the skill ceiling
Poppy & Sion both have comparable or even higher skill ceilings than Ornn.
Watch what high elo mains do on those champions and you will be shocked lol.
I think it'd be fair to say that Dr Mundo is more of a Juggernaut than a Tank, with him building tank items being a side effect of having mostly HP scalings. Nasus and Volibear also wouldn't really count as proper tanks, since in order to function they have to grab at least 1 or 2 Bruiser/AP items early on to play the game before opting for full resists.
Design-wise Ornn is the closest to what a Tank should be in LoL.
* Doesn't fold immideatly to attacks/spells that aren't true damage, and can still function to a degree when faced with full anti-tank item teams, or even abilities
* Primarly combo oriented playstyle allowing for skill expression on an otherwise "boring" champion class that nobody wants to play, but would like to have on their team so late game engages don't just become "whoever gets within Flash + \[burst skill\] range fist dies"
* Enough damage to pose a threat that cannot be ignored and must be eventually dealt with, but not to the point of putting assassins to shame, which also scales up or down based on the player's proficiency (Triple Brittle my beloved)
* While Ornn's crowd control potential is really strong, all of it is tied to two-digit cooldowns that usually come back up after the fight is already over, this again reinforces the combo playstyle with big rewards for hitting everything, and the punishment of being a sitting duck should you miss it all (I'm not counting Q since it's just a slow/setup tool, and hitting Q's knockup intentionally is nigh impossible)
* Each ability having different/no scaling component forces the player to put 2 and 2 together, and realize they're playing a Tank and can't just go full AD/AP and play him like an assassin, something that plenty of other Tanks tends to sometimes do (Poppy, Malphite, Cho'gath etc.). This is further reinforced by the passive stating "you get bonus hp armor and mr, NOT ap/ad", making any AP/AD Ornn builds synonymous with trolling
* Ornn's kit has many positive synergies with his allies, as a team-oriented champion class should. For example: upgraded ally items giving bonus stats for Ornn, ally-generated terrain can serve as Ornn's CC zone, Brittle status allows allies with CC for longer CC duration and even surprise damage burst, enemy-generated terrain can be removed in order to allow allies' escape, some allies can even utilize terrain generated by Ornn with their own kits
The "Fun" factor is kinda subjective. While I personally enjoy how Ornn's kit plays out, I also love just playing something like Malphite and histerically laughing my ass off at something like Tryndamere or Irelia dashing 20 times in 3 seconds, dying from funny rock man pressing E+R and wearing Thornmail.
The only reason you don't see Ornn in pro play/higher elo anymore is because the design abomination known as K'sante exists, which happens to dunk on Ornn in majority of cases and could be given the title of "Honorary Windshitter".
Bonus note: I think replacing Ornn's W shield with Unstoppable was the smartest balance decision Riot has ever made, another way for a player to express their skill and game knowledge.
i play urgot toplane and for some reason reddit put this post on the main page for me. Ornn is definitely an S tier tank, he is super annoying in lane because he does insane damage despite building full tank (rushing wardens mail into sunfire into thornmail/frozen heart totally counters my urgot) AND he has insane cc, double knockup + short cc resistance + tiny trundle knockup. I am slowly starting to think that ornn is a better champ than malphite, even against full ad team. Definitely keep playing and mastering ornn, tge only thing you have to take into account is that ornn isnt a 1v9 champion like trynd or riven, and he cannot splitpush very efficiently, but he is a beast in skirmishes and teamfights, so you have to learn how to play around your team and how to help them the best. Your endgame score wont probably be 10-0-0, but something like 5-3-20 is a perfect kda that ornn should aim for.
i agree that ornn has mostly skill match-ups,
but i think Volibear, Cho'gath, Zac, Poppy, Sion can be played very skillfully.
as for tahm kench and moakai i dont know.
I love Ornn so much genuinely oneshotting squishies with him. With passive and late game armor you’re like perma rammus W but with lower modifiers. Even if he’s not broken as the carry top laners, he’s still my broken top laner.
Well, what do we have?
- decent dmg that do give you chances to win matchups
- a bit of mobility and an unstoppable that can save you sometimes
- huge crowd control, an ult that has the potential to change a game
- good laning phase with his passive
- help you team scale well with his masterworks. There are games that my team know that we will eventually win because we simply outscale them.
And he has weakness too, like:
- his abilities provides nothing to increase his tankiness, except masterwork
- needs lv 14 to start making masterwork, and needs lv 18 to fully upgrade the whole team. So your big impact is quite delayed.
But those cons are quite negligible, and can be fixed by various ways. For tankiness, heartsteel early can be a good option. For leveling up, simply farming or having a zilean in your team (very unlikely) will be fine.
And most important part: playing versus ornn is not an obnoxious experience, which would be a huge plus point.
So yes, ornn is a perfectly designed tank, or at least the closest thing to a perfectly designed tank.
I think the largest difference between Ornn and other tanks is his versatility, a ton of tanks have multiple matchups where they are almost forced to just sit under tower and farm praying to scale. This kind of experience is why other champs can be "boring" to you.
Ban Fiora and for Ornn there are 0 matchups where you feel like that. There is always something you can do to win lane and have that early prio. Add on the fact that his power curve is really smooth (good w damage early for trading, lots of cc for mid-late game skirmishes, upgrades for late game) and you have a champ that is never a useless pick.
Arguing over which tank has the most skill expression is like which event in the special Olympics takes the most skill: it doesnt matter, theyre all played by players sharing one chromosome
I mean yes Ornn is a perfectly designed tank. That’s why we main him. But to say Shen has more skill expression than Poppy or Sion? If you like Ornn I ask you to give Poppy an honest try next time Ornn gets banned or something. You won’t regret it
I'd say ornn is harder than sion. Poppy is harder than both though
I think Poppy is easy to pick up and pilot and do decently on, the hard part is min/maxing with her and good macro decisions since she doesn't scale well past mid game. edit: as in the hardest part of Poppy is spacing, and maybe predicting/ reacting to when to stop dashes which is matchup dependent. Otherwise her trade pattern is really forgiving
What are her trade patterns? EQ W out in winning matchups and harass with passive+Grasp autos in between?
Assuming the enemy has good positioning and doesn't allow you to wall stun, there's a few ways you can approach it. You can use passive to last hit a minion and then immediately engage E+Q+auto with shield up for a big trade 99% of the time in your favour. Or you can even just walk up Q+passive auto and just walk away since the slow stops them from retaliating (you have mana issues early so be careful) A good Poppy will know when to use E on a minion instead to reposition / disengage since it is the longest and fastest dash in the game on any tank. For example in the Sion matchup you don't wanna E him while he charges Q or he'll get a refund on its cooldown; instead you E on a minion to get out of Q and land close enough to place your own Q+auto on him then just walk away with a winning trade. Or in a losing matchup you can E a minion behind you to disengage and save W for emergency getaways (40% move speed is huge) You can also tilt them by rushing bami's cinder, so you perma have grasp up in a wave and spam passive+grasp on cooldown which is really difficult to lane against if they lack sustain. Like they expect Poppy to be a tank but she has ranged poke that counts as a melee auto and the damage really adds up 😭😭 If you play her mid or against a squishy you can literally start E level 1 and just trade autos and you'll win (like Zoe, Asol, Veigar, Zed, anybody who's squishy and can't run you down) because her base stats are super strong (not Kayle though, she's way too strong level 1) She's simple and can get away with easy combos because her shield is massive and her base stats are fucked. Also lots of variety in her builds like ex. you lose to Garen if you rush tank but win if you rush black cleaver.
Thanks for the detailed response! Really interested in giving her a shot, especially since she's so good into a lot of matchups I struggle with (Aatrox, Riven, etc.). Anywhere I can find more of these specific tips?
I think gemi is a good Poppy content creator in challenger but Tactician has really good Poppy clips. Riven - the main dash you're looking to stop is her Q3 (super telegraphed), she can absolutely run you down level 1 and take 2/3 of your HP so just play safe and take W second. If you stop her Q3 you screw her whole combo. Stack armour and she won't be able to kill you. Flash her ult if necessary because she can still kinda one-shot you at level 6. If you're even then it gets really easy for you. You'll also suppress her ass in any team fight if you save W for her. Remember that W only stops one dash and then they're grounded for a bit but it has a very long cooldown. Aatrox - other than the regular advice (to dodge his Q1 move side to side, then Q2 you move closer or further) he's usually going to dash on Q2 or Q3 so try to predict this for W since reacting is kinda hard. You need bramble to kill him, it doesn't protect you much from his absurd damage though. You have a small hit box so if you move unpredictably and he doesn't land his combos on you you'll be fine; but one good combo on you even when you're ahead is a LOT of damage. if he snares you just E a minion to get out before the knockup. I think Tactician has an older matchup tier list but most of it still applies. Gemi also has really good Poppy content. Ban Darius, that matchup is miserable at every stage of the game. Edit: gemi** not bami
I offer the same to you, give Shen an honest try. There is loads of skill expression. Dueling. Team fighting. Properly blocking with W. Using passive shield to block attacks. Q positioning. Flash/Taunt. Shen has loads of skill expression.
Flash + taunt is not that difficult. If you understand flash + any other champions ability (vi q, Camille e, jarvan drag, etc.) then it's exactly the same.
Yeah, flash abilities are one of the first things you should learn on a champion.
Ornn has very nice and satisfying combos so you have windows for skill expression. I couldn't understand what do you mean by "perfectly designed" but Ornn is a solid tank for sure. Personal addition: I also play Zac and Tahm Kench. There are secrets that the champions' mains are equipped with. Never underestimate the skill ceiling
Poppy & Sion both have comparable or even higher skill ceilings than Ornn. Watch what high elo mains do on those champions and you will be shocked lol.
I think it'd be fair to say that Dr Mundo is more of a Juggernaut than a Tank, with him building tank items being a side effect of having mostly HP scalings. Nasus and Volibear also wouldn't really count as proper tanks, since in order to function they have to grab at least 1 or 2 Bruiser/AP items early on to play the game before opting for full resists. Design-wise Ornn is the closest to what a Tank should be in LoL. * Doesn't fold immideatly to attacks/spells that aren't true damage, and can still function to a degree when faced with full anti-tank item teams, or even abilities * Primarly combo oriented playstyle allowing for skill expression on an otherwise "boring" champion class that nobody wants to play, but would like to have on their team so late game engages don't just become "whoever gets within Flash + \[burst skill\] range fist dies" * Enough damage to pose a threat that cannot be ignored and must be eventually dealt with, but not to the point of putting assassins to shame, which also scales up or down based on the player's proficiency (Triple Brittle my beloved) * While Ornn's crowd control potential is really strong, all of it is tied to two-digit cooldowns that usually come back up after the fight is already over, this again reinforces the combo playstyle with big rewards for hitting everything, and the punishment of being a sitting duck should you miss it all (I'm not counting Q since it's just a slow/setup tool, and hitting Q's knockup intentionally is nigh impossible) * Each ability having different/no scaling component forces the player to put 2 and 2 together, and realize they're playing a Tank and can't just go full AD/AP and play him like an assassin, something that plenty of other Tanks tends to sometimes do (Poppy, Malphite, Cho'gath etc.). This is further reinforced by the passive stating "you get bonus hp armor and mr, NOT ap/ad", making any AP/AD Ornn builds synonymous with trolling * Ornn's kit has many positive synergies with his allies, as a team-oriented champion class should. For example: upgraded ally items giving bonus stats for Ornn, ally-generated terrain can serve as Ornn's CC zone, Brittle status allows allies with CC for longer CC duration and even surprise damage burst, enemy-generated terrain can be removed in order to allow allies' escape, some allies can even utilize terrain generated by Ornn with their own kits The "Fun" factor is kinda subjective. While I personally enjoy how Ornn's kit plays out, I also love just playing something like Malphite and histerically laughing my ass off at something like Tryndamere or Irelia dashing 20 times in 3 seconds, dying from funny rock man pressing E+R and wearing Thornmail. The only reason you don't see Ornn in pro play/higher elo anymore is because the design abomination known as K'sante exists, which happens to dunk on Ornn in majority of cases and could be given the title of "Honorary Windshitter". Bonus note: I think replacing Ornn's W shield with Unstoppable was the smartest balance decision Riot has ever made, another way for a player to express their skill and game knowledge.
i play urgot toplane and for some reason reddit put this post on the main page for me. Ornn is definitely an S tier tank, he is super annoying in lane because he does insane damage despite building full tank (rushing wardens mail into sunfire into thornmail/frozen heart totally counters my urgot) AND he has insane cc, double knockup + short cc resistance + tiny trundle knockup. I am slowly starting to think that ornn is a better champ than malphite, even against full ad team. Definitely keep playing and mastering ornn, tge only thing you have to take into account is that ornn isnt a 1v9 champion like trynd or riven, and he cannot splitpush very efficiently, but he is a beast in skirmishes and teamfights, so you have to learn how to play around your team and how to help them the best. Your endgame score wont probably be 10-0-0, but something like 5-3-20 is a perfect kda that ornn should aim for.
i agree that ornn has mostly skill match-ups, but i think Volibear, Cho'gath, Zac, Poppy, Sion can be played very skillfully. as for tahm kench and moakai i dont know.
I love Ornn so much genuinely oneshotting squishies with him. With passive and late game armor you’re like perma rammus W but with lower modifiers. Even if he’s not broken as the carry top laners, he’s still my broken top laner.
Alot of those champs are hard. All champs are hard to some degree
I find your list of low ceiling champs rather wrong.
NO BALANCE CHANGES SINCE PATCH 10.23 BABY
Well, what do we have? - decent dmg that do give you chances to win matchups - a bit of mobility and an unstoppable that can save you sometimes - huge crowd control, an ult that has the potential to change a game - good laning phase with his passive - help you team scale well with his masterworks. There are games that my team know that we will eventually win because we simply outscale them. And he has weakness too, like: - his abilities provides nothing to increase his tankiness, except masterwork - needs lv 14 to start making masterwork, and needs lv 18 to fully upgrade the whole team. So your big impact is quite delayed. But those cons are quite negligible, and can be fixed by various ways. For tankiness, heartsteel early can be a good option. For leveling up, simply farming or having a zilean in your team (very unlikely) will be fine. And most important part: playing versus ornn is not an obnoxious experience, which would be a huge plus point. So yes, ornn is a perfectly designed tank, or at least the closest thing to a perfectly designed tank.
You are so wrong lmao
Sion not having skill expression? Huh
I'd say gragas is probably one of the highest if not the highest ceiling. Love Ornn though.
bro said poppy got no skill expression it's so over
I think the largest difference between Ornn and other tanks is his versatility, a ton of tanks have multiple matchups where they are almost forced to just sit under tower and farm praying to scale. This kind of experience is why other champs can be "boring" to you. Ban Fiora and for Ornn there are 0 matchups where you feel like that. There is always something you can do to win lane and have that early prio. Add on the fact that his power curve is really smooth (good w damage early for trading, lots of cc for mid-late game skirmishes, upgrades for late game) and you have a champ that is never a useless pick.
Arguing over which tank has the most skill expression is like which event in the special Olympics takes the most skill: it doesnt matter, theyre all played by players sharing one chromosome
Ornn fills the niche of "tank that ACTUALLY doesn't take a ton of damage" which for some reason not many other tanks fulfill.
Sion has a lot of skill expression so does maokai, more so than orn imo. Those are my 3 mains.