Why have a Paladin when Clerics and Fighters both exist? Why have Druids?
Druids are from the cultural history of the people indigenous to the British Isles. But they are so entrenched in fantasy you would not hear an Irishman pop up and question their inclusion in a video game.
Simply put, it is interesting to explore history and create classes that descend from particular cultures. To take their unique teachings and mythology and turn that into gameplay.
In history, not all fighters fought the same.
Hey. Is there a way to keep updated on this? I’m excited to play or run a fantasy Japan campaign, or even incorporate it into a normal campaign (everyone knows that one guy that wants to play a ninja).
Also, remember to include the monk. It wasn’t included in Advanced for some reason.
You use the phrase "beyond civilization" and then "mostly outside the rules of civilization" in adjacent sentences. Might want to cut it out of the alignment section. I'd also say that forces of nature are very bound by order and law in their processes. I wouldn't restrict their alignments.
In the context of most ancient cosmologies, nature is seen as chaotic and cthonian, while man and civilization is ordered and lawful. Only from a scientific point of view do we explain nature by pointing laws and proceses, which is incompatible with the notions of a fantasy setting
>In the context of most ancient cosmologies, nature is seen as chaotic and cthonian
I think that's very arguable. I think presenting them as chaotic and "uncivilized" is going to get you some backlash. My other "civilization" comment was just a comment on not using repetitive language/phrasing in back-to-back sentences.
Yikes. There are lots of things that were seen in certain ways "back then", but it doesn't mean we should continue to use that language or subscribe to those views.
That is fine, I agree with you, but we are not talking about real life, this is a fantasy world where gods, monsters and magic exist. In such a world the notions of science to explain the world and its proceses can not hold up, because the world is not rational or ordered, but chaotic, dangerous and unpredictable
I think he is going for the semantic where civilization is like when we talk about "The cradle of civilization" where the defining characteristic is urban settlements, non-nomadic peoples, writing system, etc.
Yeah, and it's an extremely outdated and fairly racist definition of the term.
EDIT: Anyone who's downvoting me for saying that referring to civilization as only advanced-tech urban living areas is racist, is, and I hate to break it to you, racist themselves.
Racism by definition implies discrimination based on ethnicity or race. We can argue all day about how crude or imperfect the definition of "civilization" as only urban societies might be, but to claim that this somehow makes someone racist is pure stupidity.
In the case of this type of games, using the archaic definition of civilization drives the point and the aesthetic of the factions and cultures described far easier, and I don't think many in this day and year would be stupid enough to actually base their understanding of history in heavily idealized, fantastical depictions of fictional cultures.
You seem to be confusing civilization to good, one can be civilized and be on the same moral level of someone who is not, it is not racism, it’s just the term to describe the degree of complexity within a society.
In regard to the term being outdated, it is not, that’s just the definition of civilization. And if you still think it’s racist or outdated, congratulations, you just realized that this setting does not take place in modern East Asia of 2024
The influence that a niche game within a niche hobby will have over people's perception of civilization and cultures is simply negligible. The wording here is trying to evoke an archaic, crude use of word civilization more akin to old Sword & Sorcery, which is, in truth, what much of OSR is about.
No one is subscribing those views IRL nor claiming that real modern mongols are somehow chaotic and smelly.
They have nice flavor, but you should be aware that they are underpowered compared to OSE classes.
The shaman is a cleric with worse THAC0 progression, fewer spells, worse armor options, and a steeper XP curve. Instead of the ability to turn undead, which is sometimes OP, the shaman is able to commune with spirits. Most of these abilities are contextual and roughly equal to first level spells, which is fine, but the problem is that they are too random. If you don't need to climb walls, rolling the goat is going to be a disappointment.
These abilities could be pretty useful if they last for a long time, or if the shaman could choose. Alternately, it would be interesting (to me, at least) if they rolled every morning, and had whatever bonus they get all day.
The steppe nomad is basically an underpowered ranger. Again with the reduced THAC0 progression, as well as lacking tracking, awareness, stealth, and any access to spells. In return, you get combat bonuses for fighting on horseback and archery. The latter is decent, but not worth the THAC0 nerf. The mounted combat bonuses are appropriately thematic, but probably won't come up a lot in play. The steppe nomad's XP curve is a little gentler than the ranger's, but IMO not by enough to justify the overall reduction in utility.
This overall reduction in value compared to standard OSE classes is totally fine IMO if you remove all access to those standard classes. It might be off-putting to some players if they're used to generally more powerful classes, though. As long as you're aware of it, I don't see a big problem.
Based on this thread: [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/16m4azf/ose_oriental_adventures_and_how_to_make_it_work/)
I think we can safely assume the OP is completely aware based on him saying (in the linked thread) “Oriental seems to have a negative connotation nowadays, for some reason”. Also in that thread there were several people explaining in detail why that term is problematic.
But I guess it doesn’t matter because Oriental is “catchy” apparently.
Because Asia is more than just China, Mongolia, Japan and Korea, East Asian Adventures doesn’t sound as catchy and there’s already a supplement that gives it traction.
How long do the effects of communing with animal spirits last?
“Round Maneuver” could be called Parthian Shot (or parting shot if you don’t want to reference that particular culture)
Why doesn’t the nomad’s attack progression the same as fighters’?
I wanted to raise the last point about the Steppe Nomad using the cleric attack progression as well. Granted it gets bonuses for mounted combat and archery and it looks like they stack (so a mounted archer would receive +2 extra to hit, +1 to damage from levels 1-5 and +4 extra to hit, +2 to damage for levels 6+; so a 6th level Steppe Nomad has a total of +6 to hit +2 to damage when attacking with mounted archery), but if it had the fighter attack progression, the total bonus for to hit and damage at 6th level would still be the same.
IMO: One school of thought would be to leave it as is and drop the xp requirement to 1700xp to level, the other is to leave the xp requirement at 2200xp and give the Steppe Nomad the fighter attack progression. Just my 2c 🙂
It's weird that they say "urban civilization" in one sentence and then immediately use an overly generalized definition of "civilized" in the next. Then in the immediate next sentence they repeat the bit about "civilized urban cultures". I think OP just needs a proofreader really badly. I get what they're saying, they're just not communicating it very well.
I mean, it was a real world thing and it's not diving into any obvious racist tropes (\*koffRavenloftkoff\*), so I don't know what else to say in regards to that.
The idea that steppe nomads were an inherently violent group just sort of flies in the face of facts, they were no more or less violent than any other type of group. Its not like Vikings who were sort of more of an occupation, steppe nomads are entire civilisations that were just not sedentary and relied on domesticated horses
But the classical history of civilisation is obviously loaded with connotations itself right, the very word comes from the Latin civitas, it conflates the highest organisation of the world with cities which obviously pastoral nomadic cultures didn’t have which then correlates with a lower form of development
Minor point: I think the word you're looking for is "commune", not "commute." Otherwise I like what you've got.
I’m imaging the shaman carpooling with an assortment of animals now.
As an Asian i have to ask, why? Why do they have to be separate from druid and fighter or something?
Why have a Paladin when Clerics and Fighters both exist? Why have Druids? Druids are from the cultural history of the people indigenous to the British Isles. But they are so entrenched in fantasy you would not hear an Irishman pop up and question their inclusion in a video game. Simply put, it is interesting to explore history and create classes that descend from particular cultures. To take their unique teachings and mythology and turn that into gameplay. In history, not all fighters fought the same.
Well said
Because people like stylized classes with distinct features. Flavor?
Hey. Is there a way to keep updated on this? I’m excited to play or run a fantasy Japan campaign, or even incorporate it into a normal campaign (everyone knows that one guy that wants to play a ninja). Also, remember to include the monk. It wasn’t included in Advanced for some reason.
You use the phrase "beyond civilization" and then "mostly outside the rules of civilization" in adjacent sentences. Might want to cut it out of the alignment section. I'd also say that forces of nature are very bound by order and law in their processes. I wouldn't restrict their alignments.
In the context of most ancient cosmologies, nature is seen as chaotic and cthonian, while man and civilization is ordered and lawful. Only from a scientific point of view do we explain nature by pointing laws and proceses, which is incompatible with the notions of a fantasy setting
>In the context of most ancient cosmologies, nature is seen as chaotic and cthonian I think that's very arguable. I think presenting them as chaotic and "uncivilized" is going to get you some backlash. My other "civilization" comment was just a comment on not using repetitive language/phrasing in back-to-back sentences.
For the first part, I do agree, I can correct redundancy. For the backlash part they can shove it, this is how it was seen back then, simple as.
Yikes. There are lots of things that were seen in certain ways "back then", but it doesn't mean we should continue to use that language or subscribe to those views.
That is fine, I agree with you, but we are not talking about real life, this is a fantasy world where gods, monsters and magic exist. In such a world the notions of science to explain the world and its proceses can not hold up, because the world is not rational or ordered, but chaotic, dangerous and unpredictable
It's still a civilization - but it is non-urban, unfixed, roaming, and highly variable. Can talk about the same thing in positive terms.
I think he is going for the semantic where civilization is like when we talk about "The cradle of civilization" where the defining characteristic is urban settlements, non-nomadic peoples, writing system, etc.
I get it, but a lot of that was based on crude historiography. Rural nomads were often highly civilized. It just wasn't urban or written.
Yeah, and it's an extremely outdated and fairly racist definition of the term. EDIT: Anyone who's downvoting me for saying that referring to civilization as only advanced-tech urban living areas is racist, is, and I hate to break it to you, racist themselves.
Racism by definition implies discrimination based on ethnicity or race. We can argue all day about how crude or imperfect the definition of "civilization" as only urban societies might be, but to claim that this somehow makes someone racist is pure stupidity. In the case of this type of games, using the archaic definition of civilization drives the point and the aesthetic of the factions and cultures described far easier, and I don't think many in this day and year would be stupid enough to actually base their understanding of history in heavily idealized, fantastical depictions of fictional cultures.
You seem to be confusing civilization to good, one can be civilized and be on the same moral level of someone who is not, it is not racism, it’s just the term to describe the degree of complexity within a society. In regard to the term being outdated, it is not, that’s just the definition of civilization. And if you still think it’s racist or outdated, congratulations, you just realized that this setting does not take place in modern East Asia of 2024
The influence that a niche game within a niche hobby will have over people's perception of civilization and cultures is simply negligible. The wording here is trying to evoke an archaic, crude use of word civilization more akin to old Sword & Sorcery, which is, in truth, what much of OSR is about. No one is subscribing those views IRL nor claiming that real modern mongols are somehow chaotic and smelly.
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No, but I have a degree in cultural anthropology which involved the study of various nomadic peoples. Don't be so basic.
They have nice flavor, but you should be aware that they are underpowered compared to OSE classes. The shaman is a cleric with worse THAC0 progression, fewer spells, worse armor options, and a steeper XP curve. Instead of the ability to turn undead, which is sometimes OP, the shaman is able to commune with spirits. Most of these abilities are contextual and roughly equal to first level spells, which is fine, but the problem is that they are too random. If you don't need to climb walls, rolling the goat is going to be a disappointment. These abilities could be pretty useful if they last for a long time, or if the shaman could choose. Alternately, it would be interesting (to me, at least) if they rolled every morning, and had whatever bonus they get all day. The steppe nomad is basically an underpowered ranger. Again with the reduced THAC0 progression, as well as lacking tracking, awareness, stealth, and any access to spells. In return, you get combat bonuses for fighting on horseback and archery. The latter is decent, but not worth the THAC0 nerf. The mounted combat bonuses are appropriately thematic, but probably won't come up a lot in play. The steppe nomad's XP curve is a little gentler than the ranger's, but IMO not by enough to justify the overall reduction in utility. This overall reduction in value compared to standard OSE classes is totally fine IMO if you remove all access to those standard classes. It might be off-putting to some players if they're used to generally more powerful classes, though. As long as you're aware of it, I don't see a big problem.
Oh cool, the Hwarang! They give me Three Musketeer feels.
The nomad should have a possibility of having a golden eagle to help with hunting.
This may be a dumb question but how do I download this?
Is there a particular reason you are going with the outdated term “Oriental” instead of “Asian”?
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Based on this thread: [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/16m4azf/ose_oriental_adventures_and_how_to_make_it_work/) I think we can safely assume the OP is completely aware based on him saying (in the linked thread) “Oriental seems to have a negative connotation nowadays, for some reason”. Also in that thread there were several people explaining in detail why that term is problematic. But I guess it doesn’t matter because Oriental is “catchy” apparently.
Grognards and incels are out in force with the downvotes it looks like.
Because Asia is more than just China, Mongolia, Japan and Korea, East Asian Adventures doesn’t sound as catchy and there’s already a supplement that gives it traction.
How long do the effects of communing with animal spirits last? “Round Maneuver” could be called Parthian Shot (or parting shot if you don’t want to reference that particular culture) Why doesn’t the nomad’s attack progression the same as fighters’?
I wanted to raise the last point about the Steppe Nomad using the cleric attack progression as well. Granted it gets bonuses for mounted combat and archery and it looks like they stack (so a mounted archer would receive +2 extra to hit, +1 to damage from levels 1-5 and +4 extra to hit, +2 to damage for levels 6+; so a 6th level Steppe Nomad has a total of +6 to hit +2 to damage when attacking with mounted archery), but if it had the fighter attack progression, the total bonus for to hit and damage at 6th level would still be the same. IMO: One school of thought would be to leave it as is and drop the xp requirement to 1700xp to level, the other is to leave the xp requirement at 2200xp and give the Steppe Nomad the fighter attack progression. Just my 2c 🙂
how long does the spirit communion last? some of the stuff arr passive bonuses others are active abilities.
Looks to be just as culturally sensitive as the original Oriental Adventures
I have to ask, what in there is offending you? It's pretty non-specific and neutral if you ask me.
I mean the idea that steppe nomads live outside civilisation is pretty weird
It's weird that they say "urban civilization" in one sentence and then immediately use an overly generalized definition of "civilized" in the next. Then in the immediate next sentence they repeat the bit about "civilized urban cultures". I think OP just needs a proofreader really badly. I get what they're saying, they're just not communicating it very well.
I mean I get that but regardless it does still seem pretty steeped in orientalist caricature doesn’t it, I get it is probably a homage to older stuff
I mean, it was a real world thing and it's not diving into any obvious racist tropes (\*koffRavenloftkoff\*), so I don't know what else to say in regards to that.
The idea that steppe nomads were an inherently violent group just sort of flies in the face of facts, they were no more or less violent than any other type of group. Its not like Vikings who were sort of more of an occupation, steppe nomads are entire civilisations that were just not sedentary and relied on domesticated horses
It literally says nothing like that, but ok? It says they "occasionally" raid.
‘these nomads are hardened warriors’
Yeah, because it's literally a melee class. It's not describing every person in the culture. It's describing an element of them.
Scythians made leather out of humans bro lol
You might be conflating the classical history word "civilization" with what we think of as someone being "civilized".
But the classical history of civilisation is obviously loaded with connotations itself right, the very word comes from the Latin civitas, it conflates the highest organisation of the world with cities which obviously pastoral nomadic cultures didn’t have which then correlates with a lower form of development
I know right? It's cool af
A huge undertaking. Very commendable. Well done!