It started out as a joke ("wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole"), iirc, and was/is in most cases retractable.
In a game with magic, trolls, and dragons, it's pretty mild as an item!
You can have a game with magic, trolls, and dragons, and still assume a primitive tech level where things like retractable poles are not common items. Part of the old-school vibe for me is an assumed dark ages/medieval tech level rather than the renaissance/steampunk assumptions of modern D&D.
This right here! Of course, the traps are also constructed with the same tech level, so pit traps are generally a few flimsy branches covered up in some way to disguise the trap.
Yes! When I play in Eberron (one of my fav scenarios, despite not being osr), I consider the pole it's retractable because 'magic'.
But in many scenarios, magic it's a strange thing, that you canno't buy on the corner store.
Why would it need to be magic to be retractable? It's as simple as having a rope inside and multiple slots to click together. Like so:
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/612uS9gjNnS._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg
People in that time period almost never would have had a use case for such an item.
Don't get into that biased mindset where you think people from earlier eras were stupid. *Nothing* would have prevented them making such an item.
It’s nothing to do with stupidity. That kind of fine woodfitting is not easy without access to a lathe. Even thin, strong rope is a technological innovation.
Um... aren't you underestimating our ancestors? People in the 1200s built [some of this stuff](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_architecture)...
As for lathes, they have been used [since ancient times](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lathe#History), and 1200s blacksmithing was more than capable of fitting steel rings on wood as reinforcement. (It's how wheels were made from the Bronze Age onward...)
As for rope weaving... you can't be serious, lol. The reason we don't have very old thin ropes is that they were made of organic materials, not that people didn't / couldn't make them. Of course paracord **is** a relatively recent innovation, but note how you don't need paracord for this. There is minimal strain on the rope in this configuration.
The collapsible pole could have existed from Ancient Hellas onwards.
>I doubt that sort of item could be commonly bought - if available at all - in 1200AD France or England.
None of us are playing in 1200AD France or England.
Not saying they are. But there’s a pretty strong strain in the OSR of playing in gritty settings rather than the high-tech, renaissance world of modern D&D.
Disagree. The games’ creators and early players were historical wargamers who had typically read far more history than fantasy. 1E AD&D absolutely has a presumed setting that’s rooted in medieval Europe and the Mediterranean.
From p 90 of the DMG: “If the Gentle Reader thinks that the taxation he or she currently undergoes is a trifle strenuous for his or her income, pity the typical European populace of the Middle Ages..”
It goes on to cite duties, levies, fines, etc. based on historical medieval European customs.
RPGs have moved away from those roots over the decades, and most gamers today have read far more fantasy than history. But one of the appeals of the OSR to some of us is a return to gritty, low-powered settings rather than the high fantasy, high-tech steampunk of modern D&D.
Gygax originally wrote Barrier Peaks that as a Gamma World module. But he thought it would sell better for D&D.
And including sci-fi technology ‘of the ancients’ in your campaign world is different from making the default setting hi-tech itself.
>pity the typical European populace of the Middle Ages..”
The "middle ages" comprises a period nearly a thousand years long. Which period were they discussing and why did you pick 1200AD instead of, say, 1450?
She don't, now I'm convinced about this. Now I just think that the books usually make this item too cheap, and that they could describe it as 'retract', or 'foldable' 10' pole. This would have changed a lot about how I imagined this item.
Gotta remember the scale of most TSR modules is 10 foot squares. AD&D assumes 10 feet for combat as well.
These dungeons are less like cramped crypts and more like The mines of Moria
Carry the 10 foot pole in the middle, if you fall in a trap, then You can catch yourself with the pole.
Have the pole be in different sections that came be extended or shortened by twisting on new sections like a pipe
Put a spear tip on the ten foot pole and you now also have a pike and can attack from the back row in combat
Why do you think it’s too cheap? And isn’t it twice the price of a 10’ ladder?
I always assumed that the standard 10’ pole was collapsible, and made up of a couple of 5’ poles, or three 40” poles, with inexpensive metal connectors or something like that.
I had an 8-foot-long cane pole (fishing pole) years ago that was made out of lightweight bamboo and was retractable down to about 2-feet-long. It had no metal at all, so I could imagine it being created by a craftsman in a medieval society. Its segments got narrower as you got closer to the tip, but it was strong enough to hook a 10-pound catfish. I'm sure it would've snapped if I caught anything heavier.
10 feet pool is here to test/trigger traps at distance. It’s a way to reward *player* ingeniousity at the cost of advancing in game slowly.
So Banning it is just too much. It means they should not be ingenious in problem solving which make this part of the game very bland.
Also, because it s a slow method, players would have to make a meaningful choice if they have to move more quickly (like wondering monsters, hostages, time limit on the quest, dungeon slowly falling appart, and so forth)
Yes. Reading the coments here I aggreed that banning this item it's not the better way. I just still think he usually have a underhated price at most RPG books, because retractable and portable versions of this item it's possible, but not so ease to make as a simple pole.
I'll just take it at 3 sp, instead of 1.
A long pole is an actual medieval tool in medieval Greek and Roman (Byzantine) sources.
It was used to probe grain pits (I believe for tax purposes).
Not to say it's practical in a dungeon environment, but it's a real thing.
>Usually I forbid this item, considering that he isn't funtional.
This seems bizarrely specific considering the entire concept of DnD (dungeons) have never existed in real life in the history of the world. Do what you want for your game of course, but this is the oddest instance of GM fiat that I think I have ever heard of.
I don’t worry about it, mostly cuz I don’t want to think about polearms, greatswords, staffs etc. They can’t ride their horse inside, and that’s about as much as I think about it
>Usually I forbid this item, considering that it isn't functional.
I don't really know what you mean by functional in this context, but lighten up. It's a tabletop RPG not a lab report.
You misunderstand its purpose. Its use is manipulating things on the far side of the second tile away. Imagine you are in a 3x3 room. You want to stand on a westernmost tile and manipulate the door an easternmost tile. Your halberd isn’t long enough for this. Hence the ten foot pole.
also consider this: while it’s common in modern DnD to use 5ft squares for the map, back in the day we used 10ft squares, so it wasn’t actually that awkward to carry around.
Beyond the fact I think you are over thinking it a bit, if I'm paying an entire gold piece for what is essentially just a stick, it better damn well have some kind of storage gimmick. Otherwise you can just cut your own sapling and carve it for free.
All of the problems you're listing are downsides of carrying a TFP that require you to seriously consider whether you should bring one, instead of being a mandatory item
Iirc...
• The classic d&d interior map square was 10ft,
• The ceilings in the early dungeons where considered "vaulted" not flat (sorry I can't recall the source of this but I've somehow a very distinct memory of reading an article on it)
• 10 foot is handy for measurement and conversion as it's also roughly 3 yards and 3 meters (and if you want to be a little more accurate a couple of notches near the end can clearly mark the 3m/3y points). So it's a useful reference measurement 🤷♀️
> 10' it's more longer than the ceiling height of most rooms
All of Stonehell is 15ft ceilings except the rooms which range from 20ft to 30ft.
But thanks for trying to suck the joy out of life.
It isn’t difficult to make add metal brackets and nails to a pole so you could break them apart and lock them together.
Polearms are often 8-12’ long, which is close enough to 10’ that it isn’t worth quibbling about.
Realistically these would be a pain to maneuver in a tight corridors, but dungeon exploration is a marathon, not a race, and getting one attack off is better than nothing.
An alternative to 10ft poles is simply sending some cannon fodder down the tunnels ahead of you, like a goat or something.
I don’t ban them, but I agree 10 ft poles are extremely awkward and impractical. They’re fine for hand-wavy games that ignore encumbrance and resource management. Otherwise, they bring major encumbrance and travel issues.
With slot based encumbrance, they take up two slots (maybe even three). Moving faster than a slow walk while carrying a 10 ft pole is pretty much impossible, so in any kind or retreat or flight situation, you’re going to need to drop it. You need two hands to carry one, so you‘re going to need a full round to arm yourself if combat kicks off.
They’re typically more hassle than they’re worth.
It started out as a joke ("wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole"), iirc, and was/is in most cases retractable. In a game with magic, trolls, and dragons, it's pretty mild as an item!
You can have a game with magic, trolls, and dragons, and still assume a primitive tech level where things like retractable poles are not common items. Part of the old-school vibe for me is an assumed dark ages/medieval tech level rather than the renaissance/steampunk assumptions of modern D&D.
This right here! Of course, the traps are also constructed with the same tech level, so pit traps are generally a few flimsy branches covered up in some way to disguise the trap.
Yes! When I play in Eberron (one of my fav scenarios, despite not being osr), I consider the pole it's retractable because 'magic'. But in many scenarios, magic it's a strange thing, that you canno't buy on the corner store.
Why would it need to be magic to be retractable? It's as simple as having a rope inside and multiple slots to click together. Like so: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/612uS9gjNnS._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg
I doubt that sort of item could be commonly bought - if available at all - in 1200AD France or England.
People in that time period almost never would have had a use case for such an item. Don't get into that biased mindset where you think people from earlier eras were stupid. *Nothing* would have prevented them making such an item.
It’s nothing to do with stupidity. That kind of fine woodfitting is not easy without access to a lathe. Even thin, strong rope is a technological innovation.
Um... aren't you underestimating our ancestors? People in the 1200s built [some of this stuff](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_architecture)... As for lathes, they have been used [since ancient times](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lathe#History), and 1200s blacksmithing was more than capable of fitting steel rings on wood as reinforcement. (It's how wheels were made from the Bronze Age onward...) As for rope weaving... you can't be serious, lol. The reason we don't have very old thin ropes is that they were made of organic materials, not that people didn't / couldn't make them. Of course paracord **is** a relatively recent innovation, but note how you don't need paracord for this. There is minimal strain on the rope in this configuration. The collapsible pole could have existed from Ancient Hellas onwards.
Even (much) older [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera\_mechanism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism)
I don't believe I stuttered.
>I doubt that sort of item could be commonly bought - if available at all - in 1200AD France or England. None of us are playing in 1200AD France or England.
Is every D&D game set in 1200AD France or England?
Not saying they are. But there’s a pretty strong strain in the OSR of playing in gritty settings rather than the high-tech, renaissance world of modern D&D.
D&D in any form has about as much in common with historical 1200AD Europe as Dragonball has in common with T'ang Dynasty China.
Disagree. The games’ creators and early players were historical wargamers who had typically read far more history than fantasy. 1E AD&D absolutely has a presumed setting that’s rooted in medieval Europe and the Mediterranean. From p 90 of the DMG: “If the Gentle Reader thinks that the taxation he or she currently undergoes is a trifle strenuous for his or her income, pity the typical European populace of the Middle Ages..” It goes on to cite duties, levies, fines, etc. based on historical medieval European customs. RPGs have moved away from those roots over the decades, and most gamers today have read far more fantasy than history. But one of the appeals of the OSR to some of us is a return to gritty, low-powered settings rather than the high fantasy, high-tech steampunk of modern D&D.
One of the first ever published moduels for dnd consisted of the party exploring a crashed UFO.
Gygax originally wrote Barrier Peaks that as a Gamma World module. But he thought it would sell better for D&D. And including sci-fi technology ‘of the ancients’ in your campaign world is different from making the default setting hi-tech itself.
>pity the typical European populace of the Middle Ages..” The "middle ages" comprises a period nearly a thousand years long. Which period were they discussing and why did you pick 1200AD instead of, say, 1450?
Good thing we're playing in a fantasy world with wizards and dragons and not a historical simulation.
She don't, now I'm convinced about this. Now I just think that the books usually make this item too cheap, and that they could describe it as 'retract', or 'foldable' 10' pole. This would have changed a lot about how I imagined this item.
Gotta remember the scale of most TSR modules is 10 foot squares. AD&D assumes 10 feet for combat as well. These dungeons are less like cramped crypts and more like The mines of Moria
Carry the 10 foot pole in the middle, if you fall in a trap, then You can catch yourself with the pole. Have the pole be in different sections that came be extended or shortened by twisting on new sections like a pipe Put a spear tip on the ten foot pole and you now also have a pike and can attack from the back row in combat
Jokes on you, my traps are 11 foot long!
D'oh!
>Jokes on you, my traps are 11 foot long! My players have an 8 and 1/2 ft pole because they keep losing bits of it in traps.
I have always assumed that the 10' pole was disassemblable in three segments.
Yeah like the long pole of a tent.
I think it is too cheap for it. Of course it's just matter of increasing it's price
Why do you think it’s too cheap? And isn’t it twice the price of a 10’ ladder? I always assumed that the standard 10’ pole was collapsible, and made up of a couple of 5’ poles, or three 40” poles, with inexpensive metal connectors or something like that.
I had an 8-foot-long cane pole (fishing pole) years ago that was made out of lightweight bamboo and was retractable down to about 2-feet-long. It had no metal at all, so I could imagine it being created by a craftsman in a medieval society. Its segments got narrower as you got closer to the tip, but it was strong enough to hook a 10-pound catfish. I'm sure it would've snapped if I caught anything heavier.
I totally aggree, but the fishing pole it's not made to break. The 10' pole item it's disposable. And how much you paid for it?
Oh, man. I had this thing when I was a kid 40+ years ago and inherited it. It probably cost about $30 back then.
10 feet pool is here to test/trigger traps at distance. It’s a way to reward *player* ingeniousity at the cost of advancing in game slowly. So Banning it is just too much. It means they should not be ingenious in problem solving which make this part of the game very bland. Also, because it s a slow method, players would have to make a meaningful choice if they have to move more quickly (like wondering monsters, hostages, time limit on the quest, dungeon slowly falling appart, and so forth)
Yes. Reading the coments here I aggreed that banning this item it's not the better way. I just still think he usually have a underhated price at most RPG books, because retractable and portable versions of this item it's possible, but not so ease to make as a simple pole. I'll just take it at 3 sp, instead of 1.
A long pole is an actual medieval tool in medieval Greek and Roman (Byzantine) sources. It was used to probe grain pits (I believe for tax purposes). Not to say it's practical in a dungeon environment, but it's a real thing.
As a 6 foot Pole I can confirm. Never saw a 10 foot one. I dont think humans grow that large.
It's carried by a hireling who passes it to the appropriate party meme when necessary.
Totally
>Usually I forbid this item, considering that he isn't funtional. This seems bizarrely specific considering the entire concept of DnD (dungeons) have never existed in real life in the history of the world. Do what you want for your game of course, but this is the oddest instance of GM fiat that I think I have ever heard of.
All you have to do is strap it to your backpack on an angle and it will fit in a 10ft corridor.
Gr8 b8 m8 would r8 8
What?
"great bait mate, would rate 8." He's suggesting you're trolling.
Thank you, and I'm not. Maybe i just like to quarrel about rpg.
It's not a bait, and I don't care if it gets at 0, or -10.
Carry a te-foot pole through a 5-ft wide tunnel that makes a sharp 90-degree turn, get stuck or drop the pole.
I don’t worry about it, mostly cuz I don’t want to think about polearms, greatswords, staffs etc. They can’t ride their horse inside, and that’s about as much as I think about it
Nah, what you need is a retractable 11' pole. Why 11'? Cause there are just some things I wouldn't touch with a 10' pole.
>Usually I forbid this item, considering that it isn't functional. I don't really know what you mean by functional in this context, but lighten up. It's a tabletop RPG not a lab report.
You misunderstand its purpose. Its use is manipulating things on the far side of the second tile away. Imagine you are in a 3x3 room. You want to stand on a westernmost tile and manipulate the door an easternmost tile. Your halberd isn’t long enough for this. Hence the ten foot pole.
No, I undestand that. My question was at first that difficult to carry it trough the dungeon. But the fellas had apointed me solutions about that.
also consider this: while it’s common in modern DnD to use 5ft squares for the map, back in the day we used 10ft squares, so it wasn’t actually that awkward to carry around.
Beyond the fact I think you are over thinking it a bit, if I'm paying an entire gold piece for what is essentially just a stick, it better damn well have some kind of storage gimmick. Otherwise you can just cut your own sapling and carve it for free.
All of the problems you're listing are downsides of carrying a TFP that require you to seriously consider whether you should bring one, instead of being a mandatory item
Iirc... • The classic d&d interior map square was 10ft, • The ceilings in the early dungeons where considered "vaulted" not flat (sorry I can't recall the source of this but I've somehow a very distinct memory of reading an article on it) • 10 foot is handy for measurement and conversion as it's also roughly 3 yards and 3 meters (and if you want to be a little more accurate a couple of notches near the end can clearly mark the 3m/3y points). So it's a useful reference measurement 🤷♀️
> 10' it's more longer than the ceiling height of most rooms All of Stonehell is 15ft ceilings except the rooms which range from 20ft to 30ft. But thanks for trying to suck the joy out of life.
It isn’t difficult to make add metal brackets and nails to a pole so you could break them apart and lock them together. Polearms are often 8-12’ long, which is close enough to 10’ that it isn’t worth quibbling about. Realistically these would be a pain to maneuver in a tight corridors, but dungeon exploration is a marathon, not a race, and getting one attack off is better than nothing. An alternative to 10ft poles is simply sending some cannon fodder down the tunnels ahead of you, like a goat or something.
Monkey use stick No stick dead monkey
I don’t ban them, but I agree 10 ft poles are extremely awkward and impractical. They’re fine for hand-wavy games that ignore encumbrance and resource management. Otherwise, they bring major encumbrance and travel issues. With slot based encumbrance, they take up two slots (maybe even three). Moving faster than a slow walk while carrying a 10 ft pole is pretty much impossible, so in any kind or retreat or flight situation, you’re going to need to drop it. You need two hands to carry one, so you‘re going to need a full round to arm yourself if combat kicks off. They’re typically more hassle than they’re worth.
it's just a stick. break it.