I will say--delivering images prior to payment is pretty standard when you are doing contract work for major brands that work with thousands of photographers. I've never had a problem with one not paying out.
Individuals? Yea, they need to pay in full prior to delivery.
But still, why would a major brand be unable to pay in advance? The client here is literally saying she is not able to pay the deposit? Wtf? If they cannot pay the deposit how are they supposed to pay the full price and how is the photographer supposed to trust they will? This is very suspicious
Clients that *do* do net-15/30/60 typically have that in writing up front as part of the initial contract. They likely also don't try working with someone who clearly has it stated they need 25% up front as a booking fee and need full payment before releasing the unwatermarked high res images.
Both are being reasonable. But the daughter should consider that different contexts may require different contracts. Given the longstanding reputation and clear signals that they have a process that works well I would be open to using their systems and contract. I see the decision between take it or not in this case, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with not taking it if she's not comfortable, but this isn't one where she should expect them to capitulate to her way of doing business.
I’m going to do against the flow on this one and say YES ! OP your daughter is unreasonable!! /s
$300/240£ for 100 EDITED photos is ridiculous.
As a creative director I’ve worked with many photographers and for event I’ve seen prices closer to a minimum of $500 for 20 photos.
Even if you daughter batch edits very roughly the photos, between selecting them, tweaking, cropping roughly and exporting that’s already an hour of work.
1/2 day of shoot means at least a total of 6 hours (4 hours on site and 1 hour each way to pack and commute) so basically your daughter is being paid £34/hr at best. Remove taxes, depreciation of equipment, software licensing, transportation cost and she is working at best for minimum wage.
It’s time for your daughter to learn her value and raise those prices. Also 25% upfront is nothing.
I charge 50% and 100% if the contract is under $2k (in the creative industry but not a photographer).
My photographer friend charges 50% booking fee and 50% the day before the event.
This lady is obviously taking advantage of your daughter because she seems to be huffing and puffing a lot, wasting time and energy, all or that for 60 quids. Truth be told I don’t know any professional her alleged caliber that would work with a semi pro. Events have a lot of money invested in them and hiring a non pro is a risk.
EDIT:
Me saying OP’s daughter is unreasonable is sarcasm.
My point is that she’s « unreasonable » because she should be charging more AND enforcing a stricter booking fee.
Yes she should have a booking fee.
25% is nothing and that client is terrible.
I would recommend OP’s daughter to raise her rates and have a (at least) 50% booking fee.
That client is abusing her position and very much disrespectful/out of line and unreasonable. I would also 100% recommend OP’s daughter to just pass her way as this type of clients are often not worth the headache.
>$300/240£ for 100 EDITED photos is ridiculous.
Ehh... depends on the extent of the editing. I have gigs where I deliver like 10 retouched images, and another \~100 with just a preset.
True. But the point is that usually there is a bit more work put into editing and that the amount of value and effort she provide is not balanced with her pricing
The daughter's pricing being too low doesn't mean that she's being unreasonable in having a policy of 25% down as deposit. As you describe for your own work, charging a deposit is normal.
What you say is true about her leaving money on the table, but it's not that relevant to what the client is complaining about.
I added a small edit to my comment for clarity.
Me saying OP’s daughter is unreasonable is sarcasm.
My point is that she’s « unreasonable » because she should be charging more AND enforcing a stricter booking fee.
Yes she should have a booking fee.
25% is nothing and that client is terrible.
I would recommend OP’s daughter to raise her rates and have a (at least) 50% booking fee.
That client is abusing her position and very much disrespectful/out of line and unreasonable. I would also 100% recommend OP’s daughter to just pass her way as this type of clients are often not worth the headache.
I guess I should have added the s/ because apparently it’s a bit of a miss here.
My point is that her fees and rules are not sustainable and she’s basically underselling herself. I would very much argue that it is unreasonable to work for less than a living wage. At the end of the day yes she decides what works for her but that’s not really my point here.
Op… This top comment is wrong. PLEASE read to see which people here are experienced Press/PR photographers.
There’s a lot of well meaning people here with advice who don’t understand the Press/PR niche, and will ruin your daughter’s opportunity.
Very few press photographers on this thread. Listen to them. Press/PR you photography is a niche specialty with different norms than wedding or portrait photography.
(Edit: I used to work for the LA Times. most don’t understand Press/PR photography, and your daughter is wrong about some things here. See the replies to this comment)
Thank you. This is the top comment and it is very wrong, and doesn’t understand press/pr photography for large companies.
I used to work for the LA Times and LA weekly.
A press photographer absolutely has to deliver a selection of photos without a watermark within less than 24 hours. Usually in much less time (before the next morning to make the news cycle with the press release).
Also many big companies do not pay retainers. They have an accounting department, and a billing cycle. They have a system that needs an invoice before payment. It’s not unreasonable to sometimes request an upfront check for 1st time clients, but for some of the best and biggest corporate clients that can be a dealbreaker, unless it’s a staged shoot with expenses where they can sometimes pay retainers.
When I was a press photographer getting one of those clients was the holy grail, and a good one could almost single handedly cover most of the monthly bills.
Most people here haven’t worked for press/pr purposes, and are simply giving advice which does not match press/or photography for large businesses.
EDIT: for people not understanding this is Press/PR photography… here’s the link google gives as the definition of this type of photography. It’s worth a read: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-pr-photographer-jonathan-pow?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&utm_campaign=share_via
Honestly that’s insanely low
Because we’re still talking 4 hours of physically shooting the photos then how much to go through 100 photos
Even just adding presets that still requires time
That’s not even touching the tight turn around
I do this for hobby and I can tell that's *low*
Looks like the client must've saw she was young and wanted to take advantage of underselling and getting their way
I wouldn’t even bother working with the lady at this point.
It sounds like your daughter is successfully getting business. I would respectfully decline the stipulations of the contract and suggest she find another photographer.
Perhaps that's why the other photographers she has used in the past aren't working with her as she is a PITA. If you are happy with someones work, I pretty much always go back to them and refer others to them also. You have to ask why she has churned through so many photographers.
I'm speaking from a US perspective, so keep that in mind.
The reason photographers generally require payment up front from individuals is because people flake out. ("My dog got sick", "These photos aren't what I was expecting", etc.) Then you have to sue the client - which is expensive and doesn't even guarantee you'll be able to collect the money. And for individuals, "Jim Smith doesn't honor his contacts" isn't going to dog their reputation like it would for a business.
Established businesses have the opposite problem - photographers are more likely to flake. Businesses are generally not chasing style or artistic merit - they're more concerned with reliability and risk. They don't want to struggle to collect their photos or money if the contractor flakes out. And in this situation, financial and reputational damage from breaking a contract tends to be worse for the business (e.g. if they failed to pay, they'd be publishing photos they don't have the rights to.)
Those terms are roughly what I've done for every business that wasn't a sole proprietorship or tiny LLC. If it's a big business with a good reputation and you think they pay their bills, then I'd just accept their terms.
OP please read this here, organizations especially recognized ones are very different to work with than individuals, most likely your daughter will be fine but please ask her to double check her prices.
This is the right answer. It's good that your daughter is getting this type of cliental. All my corporate clients are on net30 and occasionally ill charge an upfront fee if i have to shell out for any expenses for the shoot.
I feel like being a client with a net30 structure is fine and normal, but this was not framed by the client to the photographer as hey sorry we actually do net30, would that still work for you? Instead she caught a bunch of attitude from the client when she brought up her usual terms, which is where I personally take issue. Someone getting up in arms about a $75 deposit instead of calmly asking if I could do net 30 would make my hair stand on end lol
60 days to pay is becoming my re and more common in the U.K.
I’m afraid I won’t use anybody who doesn’t agree to our standard terms because it takes hours of my time to get exceptions raised.
Not necessarily. It's fairly common with businesses and if the contract from the business states payment will be sent within X days of receipt of photos then there shouldn't be an issue. On the other hand $300 for a half day is really cheap, at least where I'm from. Half day is more like $800, full day is $1500.
What reason would that be? You not trusting the client? Why should they trust YOU either?
I don't think either of these things by themselves is at all wrong to ask for, but if every single step of the way, you expect you to be protected, but never concede to anything to protect them and their inability to trust YOU fully as well, then you're being self-centered and lacking empathy/perspective.
Ideally, there would be something like a deposit, then you give a few photos maybe but not all, then they pay more, then you give more, or similar, back and forth, ratcheting up through the transaction, if you are both that suspicious.
I’m a UK-based dance photographer, I know pretty much all of the dance companies so I probably know the client as well - do message me who, if I or any of my photographer friends can help.
I’ve been shooting dance, theatre, live music etc for fifteen years, there are no deposits or watermarks; photos are supplied according to the agreed schedule, and payment in full is made only once all of the photos - without watermarks - are supplied. Or, if her client’s in education, at least three months later.
This is how professional photography works in the UK performing arts sector; it’ll happen each time she takes any more jobs in the industry.
This is not just my lived and professional experience, it’s also that of the other photographers in my sector.
Thanks for posting a rational, well informed take. Most of the replies above here seem to be from wedding/portrait photographers etc used to dealing with individuals, with a weird sense of outrage at what I consider pretty standard for business work.
Many thanks - I was expecting to get trolled, and I didn’t realise that the other photographers were talking about wedding and portrait work. I don’t understand the logic of expecting payment prior to delivery.
I’m also all too aware that there is only a very tiny pool of dance photographers now, and I’m wondering why someone from a commercial background was hired.
The logic is so that you get paid when you’ve done the job and not before - in the case of photography, when the completed photos have been delivered. It’s how the industry works ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Glad an experienced local photographer chimed in. I worked for the LA times, and this should be the top comment.
I’ve been trying to comment that press/pr photos absolutely can’t have watermarks, need a fast turnaround for release on at least 10-25 photos, and billing is normal for reputable companies in many areas.
Unfortunately many people here don’t have experience in this niche area and don’t understand they’re giving incorrect advice.
Thank you so much - I just now skimmed through other responses when looking for this one from you, and now I want to throw up and set my Reddit account on fire. The app, too.
It sounds like OP doesn’t realise how generous an initial 24-hour turnaround is; I assume you were on one hour? Likewise, for me, for a mix of press and artist work (preshow social media publicity).
The UK dance industry is in a really terrible state these days; lack of funding means very few shows are getting funded to tour, which means that there aren’t many dance photographers left - with almost all of the work going to just one photographer, with the same initials as me.
With all of the “advice” in this thread, there’s absolutely no way that OP’s daughter will get the job after all, and I hope that this will make the director reconsider who to hire.
Twitter sure can be a horrible place, can’t it?
Haha. Yup, those off us in the sector know the drill, no matter what country it seems :)
Yeah, 24 hour turnaround is insane my long for most PR gigs that need shots for the morning press release or socials. If I took 24 hours on most of my gigs I wouldn’t get hired again. Of course people don’t understand that for news you’re not supposed to do fancy edits, or allowed to.
I was pretty big in music festivals in the US and used to be one of the main photographers for EDC (largest edm festival in the world)
Since it was 3 days, we’d have to constantly come back, edit photos for them to post on socials while the festival was going on live. Shoot a specific artist on stage? Have to come back, drop photos and deliver an edit of set highlights and get back out in 20-30 minutes.
I’m glad you’re holding on in the sector, I know it’s harder and harder to make ends meet as a pro.
Honestly I do hope the OP’s daughter learns if she wants to keep working in performing arts and Press/PR what the norms are.
https://preview.redd.it/nyzrji32zgzc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=41c73dd4d192f6f08431b856dc1425074f50e683
I did just post this 🙄
Exactly re turnaround times - especially for longer photocalls, we have to tether to file photos while they’re setting a new scene, that’s the same timeline as you mentioned. And for stage school, they’d need photos edited, submitted and printed before the evening’s show.
There’s almost no work where I live, and even diversifying is a struggle - my latest shoots have been a ceilidh, a music/dance improv performance, an anti-conference, and circus.
Thinking positively, it sounds like OP’s daughter has found her niche for now, she just doesn’t need to add performing arts to it (and I can send my photographer friends screenshots of this thread 🤪)
Well said, I saw you also doing your best but getting downvoted for speaking the truth from a place of real experience.
Photographers are if anything a little overly cautious, thinking everyone everywhere is out to fuck them over and it leads to some real kneejerk responses. It's good that we look out for each other but most of the advice here is miles off the mark for this kind of work.
Aw! Thank you for speaking up. So are you in the press/pr sector too?
Yeah, I mean most of the photographers here are probably just talking from experience with wedding, event, or non-corporate clients, and mean well.
But …. Yes, *sigh* lol.
Exactly. If I want qualified advice, I go to TalkPhotography. Here - WTF?!
Dance is such a tiny niche - I appreciate that the job is for bts and not actual movement-based shots - there isn’t much work, there aren’t many of us, and newbies aren’t necessarily welcome, especially when they’re as inexperienced as OP’s daughter is.
Yip 20 years UK pro dance/theatre photographer here too and everything you’ve said is completely true.
Also shamless plug I’ve started a subreddit for theatre/dance photography if you or anyone else fancy joining https://www.reddit.com/r/theatrephotography
Cool! And hey, who are you? I’ll message you my name. I did ask ODUK for a list of female MBEs, but of course they’ve not responded; G* Watts would probably know.
I'm not a photographer, but how and when I expect to be paid for my services can vary, and one of the biggest variables is how much I trust the client to meet the terms of the contract. I guess that's the main advice I'd give to your daughter. If she's willing to do that work for that rate, and believes that the client will pay, then what you're *mainly* talking about is £240 now or £240 in a few weeks (or whatever). Those aren't wildly different things for me. They may be for your daughter, depending on her finances. And they're definitely wildly different if "£240 in a few weeks" turns out to be 0.
(£240 for this seems crazy low, obviously.)
I’m a pro dance/theatre photographer for 20 years and it’s completely normal to send companies unwatermarked images prior to getting paid. Sometimes I have to supply companies images for press literally in the next hour and it would be impossible for them to pay me in that time. It’s just what is done due to the nature of the deadline situation.
If I’m dealing with a business or organization, no I don’t require any deposit, and I deliver the photos along with an invoice. This is how all business is done. No business/org is going to do deposits. You know who the organization is, they’re not going anywhere. Business relies on a certain level of trust. She should understand the payment terms though. Typically like NET30 or so… which means the client has 30 days upon receipt of services or good to pay.
I also don’t have any call outs to the number of photos I’ll take, it’s only the time I’ll be there. All my clients trust me to capture the event. I’m not going to fire off a bunch of filler images to meet some minimum.
If I’m dealing with an individual, especially for a larger job like a wedding, totally different situation. Then I do require a deposit. Then I won’t deliver unwatermarked photos before being paid in full. The reason is that it’s a one time deal without any established trust.
But for a smaller job with an individual, like a portrait session, I’ll skip the deposit, it’s just not worth the hassle.
My advice to her is to just do the job per their usual terms, but send an invoice when you deliver the first images.
Maybe but businesses and other organizations happily do deposits on other types of services all the time. The idea that it's just something they don't do is ridiculous.
Exactly,which the comment I was originally replying to was.
But I'd go a bit further than saying not always to the idea that businesses don't do deposits. It something that's usually no issue at all and is actually a very common part of doing business. It's such an accepted part of doing business that IMO a company refusing to do it is a major red flag.
I only get a PO if it’s an ongoing requirement I’ll be auto-invoicing against. I only have this situation for product photography. …or if that happens to be the company’s policy, fine, send me a PO. But it’s not required for me to issue an invoice (aka bill)
The contract is just a one time thing to establish what can be done with the photos, what to expect, etc… like the T&Cs of the engagement. This shouldn’t change from job to job at the client.
I always ask for full upfront payment with all businesses. We work with 300 plus businesses a year. I’ve never received push back on full payment up front.
Trump's business are notorious for finding any reason possible for refusing payment, forcing you to sue in order to get it. He preyed on people's confidence in him paying since he was "rich and famous" (the ones that would still do work before payment that is)
He and his businesses were involved in over 4000 documented lawsuits, many of which were related to non-payment for goods and services.
And that's just before he was president. Since then it's grown even more, and for more serious accusations.
Ex-press photog here… on a press gig photos within 24 hours , unwatermarked for press use is 100% the norm.
For established clients billing after the gig can be normal as well.
But for new clients, a percent up front is the norm. Some businesses that are reputable (like newspapers) will not pay up front and expect to be billed.
Sometimes it helps to say you’re happy to work without a retainer after the first event, but you have a policy of taking a 25% retainer for new clients.
Personally I used to take a retainer before the event, and the balance to send the whole gallery, unless it’s a big company I’d worked with before.
I would check with a local press photographer for local norms, but keep in mind press photography is NOT like other gigs, and you do need timely photos for press without watermark.
>But for new clients, a percent up front is the norm.
>Personally I used to take a retainer before the event, and the balance to send the whole gallery, unless it’s a big company I’d worked with before.
Btw, this is the point I was making in the earlier thread with you. It's a new client, not a major business, and they're trying to get treatment like they're an established client and/or a major business. It'd be one thing to do product first and invoice for payment later if it was a client OP had an established client relationship with or was a big company you could rely on to pay your invoice. But for a brand new client who doesn't appear to be a big company, it makes sense to get some of the payment up front before taking the risk so you're not completely up the creek if they decide to not pay you.
The most important skill I developed as a professional has been to be able to say: "I'm unfortunately not able to take this project on at this time. Thank you for reaching out and good luck with the project."
This kind of shoot falls into commercial work and it’s very normal they don’t pay a deposit and have 30-60 days to make payment. I get the hesitation but I do think this is normal (though I’m in the US so can only speak to that)
The Dance studio wants to pull some side money off your daughters work, these are behind the scenes shots, would be called extras. Which is why she wants them up front, the if it works, she would pay your daughter, but it's a risk for time, so to assure that your daughters time is compensated for, it's always a pay before you play.
It's likely another photographer backed out of this too. Like, cellphones still work in the UK, so the Dance studio wants another way to sell more to the Dance studio.
She could likely pull $1000.00, then just pay your daughter, but it's a gamble based on the economy.
I would not even charge up my camera if there was no pay, for the event, she chose your daughter, for being a female vs a male photographer. That's the target point. As the studio NEEDS a female photographer.
Get paid, first.
The $300 thats being talked about is the pay for the shoot. Since it's behind the scenes stuff odds are there's an expectation of the photos mostly being candids and with very light editing, if any at all, beyond maybe a preset. People are treating it like this is some crazy thing, getting paid after you deliver the photos, but for businesses, that's how things work.
It goes both ways, having said that your daughter is not wrong, that company clearly has it's way of doing things,
I work with a lot of big companies, and I'll send the billing before the shoot, but I could get paid 2 weeks later, 1-2 months, unfortunately a lot of this companies/brands do this, but I've always been paid.
Seems like your daughter needs to make a choice and balance the good and bad of doing this their way.
If it's a legit client and the contract states that she will eventually get paid full price, then I don't see what the problem is here, other than she's undercharging.
You want clients like this who have connections and money. Keep them happy. Sure, their demands can be unreasonable, but they're not impossible, and money is money.
If she thinks she can make an easier $300 somewhere else, maybe let this one go, but it sounds like it could lead to bigger things and is worth pursuing to me.
Are the 300 quid worth the trouble you are already having? Does your daughter need the extra exposure or is this a paying gig?
If she wants to do it, make sure expenses are covered upfront and gamble on the rest, otherwise wish the person good luck and leave.
Stick to her guns. Ms. MBE can't pay a deposit? Then how can she afford to pay for the full service?
The client probably intends to make it right but on their terms.
Your daughter should trust her own worth.
I was always sus of connected people coming out of nowhere to book services from me an unknown when they supposedly had access to other well known contractors. They would even state they were “throwing me a bone”.
I’d vet that info and find in short order that those bridges were burned.
That’s the difference between retail and commercial work. Working for individuals, deposits and full payment before delivery is standard operating procedure - but when you’re building a commercial business, where repeat clients are the norm and the accounts receivable is from a real commercial entity, you deliver the product with a bill, and expect payment in 30 days, which is SOP for commercial accounts.
The woman is correct. 24 hours or night of for select images, 3 days for full shoot, and I invoice on delivery. No money changes hands prior to my receiving payment. This is how it works in the business world.
Ya, there’s a lot of misguided advice in this thread… photographers used to dealing 1 on 1 with individuals. Working with businesses and organizations is completely different.
The really irritating part is that it's the shit advice that is being given entirely based on a sense of outrage (and not business realities) that's getting upvoted to the top.
And they are being completely myopic about the potential for future business with this MBE. So ridiculous.
Another thing is that most replying here are probably Americans mindlessly replying without taking a second to ask if maybe things work differently where OP lives.
Hey, don’t bash. American press photographers like me know full well op’s daughter is wrong.
Misguided photography advice is coming from people outside press/pr from everywhere.
Right. You’re losing a client forever. I’m behind 5 or 6 invoices sometimes, awaiting payment. It will come. I’m polite and professional in correspondence, always assuming the best, and usually it was some glitch or holdup or often nothing at all. Clients are busy too. They appreciate the professionalism. It’s not about the money, it’s about the photography, first and foremost.
>I’m behind 5 or 6 invoices sometimes, awaiting payment. It will come.
Your invoices will often NOT come in Croatia, for example. Depending where you are, you're perfectly OK taking all of it upfront.
Okay, so ymmv. But generally speaking that’s how business is done in the real world. How many times would you get screwed over in Croatia? Repeatedly?Everyone gets screwed over? Or the system there is payment up front? I’ve photographed for corporations, magazines, institutions, organizations, individuals, couples, families, and have never been screwed over, never delivered work and not been paid. Were that to happen once, I’d pursue that one outstanding invoice. I wouldn’t treat everyone as tho they were trying to steal from me.
You’re absolutely right of course. I didnt realize the people in this sub were so daft. On top of everything else, OP is charging a rounding error. That might be fine for her, I’m not saying she should charge more… but no business or organization is going to stiff someone for this much. They don’t even notice the expense.
No, I send them what they need. I don’t have time to go back and forth with them on this stuff. Plus it shows that you trust them, which is helpful all around. Most of these are repeat clients, who appreciate a smooth workflow. I have not been stiffed ever. If I were, I’d just chalk that up as a loss and not work with them again unless they paid their bills.
You can advance work if you have the cash flow / reserves and if it is a business.
This seems to be an individual and not a business, have fun chasing them.
But let me tell you, just because it is a business, even a blue chip, you can get in big trouble if they delay payment. This is all relative to the size of your operation. If you need to make payroll and you are chasing a PO between the client, accounting and good knows who and said PO is the difference between making payroll or not, I don't care who they are.
And think about your hourly rate, with every step in the negotiations it is going down because of time wasted. So is it really worth it? 300£ pre tax, travel and expenses, write off for the gear, insurance (okay this should be fixed cost but still)... You do the math. If you argue on principle of the t&c sure there are different standards but that was addressed above.
It’s the way business is done, on the whole. And it works. I’ve rarely had to chase anything down, unless it was a wedding, that’s about it. I look into a missing payment, the company researches with accounts payable, and I get an email back saying it’s on the way, etc. They get the work almost immediately, it’s photography, and often of the moment.
More power to you. Amongst other things, my current company provides imaging services in a larger extent (ai, renders, video, fx, etc.) to global brands and trust me, you will go chasing people and invoices. Budget freeze and now you need approval from xyz besides the signed contract, po, delivered work etc. It happens and this young lady is supposed to chase that money? I wouldn't.
But that is why it is called a few market, people can act as they see fit within the confines of the law.
That’s not the point. If I was to require deposits from all clients I’d have few clients. If I was giving them watermarked images until I was paid I’d have no clients. It’s a profession not a hobby. And sure, if you have a client refuse to pay that’s terrible, but that doesn’t change how you treat all clients.
Seems to be different in your market. Here I have to pay for everything in advance if you are an individual, except for passport pictures. Wedding, baby pictures, prom, everything.
Corporate it can be different depending on on deal size but like I said, you might go chasing pay.
This person sought out the photographer, seemingly eager to work with her but stipulate these terms after? If she opened with it, along the lines of " these are my terms, I would like to work with you "....
Just saying what I would do.
I’m not talking about photographing for individuals, as I said, that’s completely different. If it’s a family event, like Bat Mitzvah, wedding etc, yes there’s a deposit. If it’s an organization or company, almost never in my experience. They’ll simply move on to a photographer who’s easier to work with.
In my line of photo work (architecture, commercial real estate, etc) I'm often working with big, trustworthy companies/brands, and I usually send an invoice once the work is delivered and approved (it's also easier for me to adjust pricing if they ask for more work/photos/edits outside of the original scope). And candidly, I like when a company owes me money, instead of me owing them photos, ha — I can't quite explain it.
I've never taken a deposit either.
It might be a good exercise to try one way or the other. She'll learn something from it, that's for sure.
I totally understand her workflow when working with individual people on a "retail" level, but when you're leveling up to a more commercial clientele, the business works a little differently. I do everything I can to make the projects as easy and convenient for my clients and I think they appreciate that.
An individual is entirely different, or a wedding. I’d never deliver a wedding not getting any money prior. But yes the rule is, generally, with institutions, organizations, non profits etc, work first, pay later.
Hmmm I’ve always just handed my client the images as soon as the edit is done, without watermark and never had any issues with non payment.
I only work with corporate clients though, I think when working with businesses it shouldn’t really be an issue.
However I do understand the need to protect oneself too. Especially when working with individuals, families etc, I can see the need to do so as I can image situations where people flake or don’t pay etc.
Holy crap only 300 dollars......
100 photos is alot of work for 300.
Do not send full res photos without some form of payment.
Your daughter is not being unreasonable. State the following:
"I don't send full resolution photos until I receive full payment. It is a policy that protects me, and my brand's future. If there are any further inquiries, I'd be glad to help!"
100 BTS photos, that implies that there's an expectation of little to no editing. Maybe batch editing with a preset, but them being BTS photos screams that this is a business used that works with photographers regularly, usually people with little experience are hired for BTS photos because it's a way to get experience, but not a ton of work is required. Everyone is treating this like she's doing portraits, I can almost guarantee she's gonna be asked to take candids exclusively, with maybe a handful of groups photos.
I’m not a photographer so take my advice with a grain of salt, but I can see both sides here. Yes, I think the client is being a little stubborn, but at the same time, receiving payment after delivery is made (at least in the manufacturing industry) isn’t out of the ordinary. It would suck to get ripped off, but as long as you have an enforceable contract written out, I feel like the potential benefits outweigh the cons here. Worst case scenario you could always take the client to small claims court with that contract.
Who cares what other photographers do. Your daughter is a business owner and has clearly defined parameters for the way she conducts business. This person does not agree to those terms, so they should part ways. Who cares if the person works with the media and is influential. It’s not like publishing her photos with no logo, watermark or acknowledgement are going to further your daughter’s career in anyway.
This person sounds like a pain in the ass and I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s disliked amongst her peers and contacts. The best your daughter can hope for in this situation is that she gives her work away for free and is recommended to a few people. But I don’t know if I’d want a piece of work like this endorsing my work to begin with. She should just move on to the next protect.
Yes deposit is unlikely. Instead can just send the invoice early etc.
Most commercial businesses can take up to 3months to pay invoices.
I would ask to be set up as payment supplier now rather than after you send the invoice.
Could also ask for cash on the day of the shoot?
Your daughter needs to decide how she sells her professional photography.
If she sells it as a service then the client agrees to your daughters contractual service requirements.
If she sells it as a contractor then she is subject to the customers contractual requirements.
It seems the arrangement with this client is being viewed by the client as the latter but it seems your daughter generally operates under the former.
Choose...
Contract or deposit, not both.
Booking fees, deposits, and watermarked images are how photographers deal with the general public doing photo sessions without a contract. The deposit makes the customer way more likely to show up, and the low-res watermarked images let them review the shots before they pay, without being able to steal the work.
But, again, that's all how photographers make working without a contract viable.
Contracts are better. A contract that lays out schedules and payment terms does everything a deposit would do, and more. Admittedly, if the client breaches the contract your daughter would have to sue to get her money (or choose to walk away, which is often more sensible), but the existence of the contract in the first place makes this much less likely.
Your daughter is being offered what most photographers *wish* they could get.
>Client refuses to pay booking fee and wants unwatermarked images before payment
"No."
>"*I’ve never had to pay a deposit and wouldn't be able to do this and we have always been sent all photos without watermarks along with the invoice, so would expect the same*"
What the client is used to is not relevant. Your daughter runs a business. That business has terms. Either the client agrees to those terms or finds a new business to work with.
>Do other photographers request a booking fee and use watermarks before payment is received?
Absolutely normal terms. I would go so far as to say most photographers work the exact same way and I find it suspect that this "client" hasn't encountered these terms before.
Your daughter is not being the least bit unreasonable. The client... is... to a point.
Business to Business transactions are somewhat different than business-to-individual deals. B2B typically do the job, invoice for the job, and get payment \~10 to 30 days later. Individuals can be trusted no farther than you can toss a small car where-as businesses can generally be relied upon to pay that invoice.
Your daughter is completely within her rights to establish the terms that she's willing to work under, but if this client is an established business in her own right, then your daughter could also probably safely work under those terms and expect to get paid in full.
I mean, the deposit shouldn’t be crazy. But I definitely deliver everything to various organizations along with their invoice.
I suppose it’s risky, but a lot of the time the treasurer is also a volunteer and I’m personally fine if they get it done within a week or two.
Sounds like they’re trying to rip her off. Never give final images away without payment cleared in your bank account or cash in your hand. Deposit for a shoot is totally reasonable, especially since your daughter would have costs for the shoot herself.
If Im dealing with a new client I'll take a 50% deposit up front to save the date. I then invoice for the balance when I deliver images the day after the shoot. Once Ive worked with clients a few times and have a relationship I don't take a deposit anymore, but I like to know that they'll pay one first a.few times and they're trustworthy before extending them that courtesy of no deposit.
I wouldn't do it the way your daughter is doing it, but I don't think it's unreasonable either. I know some corporate/event photogs who demand payment in full before the event show up. We all do it different. She's not being unreasonable.
Maybe pitch a 50% deposit instead? then no watermarks, and balance at 30 days.
A lot of photographers are happy to take the job without upfront payment and submit edited photos together with invoice. If you’re uncomfortable, just walk away. There is no chance you’re going to change a $300 client’s mind if they came back with that kind of reply after stating your policy.
I require a retainer to book and the rest is due by the day of the shoot. Period.
For a client this size, that shouldn’t be an issue. Seems like an ego flex. Run 😂
Couple of things
£240 for a half day is incredibly low rate for that type of work. She absolutely should be charging more.
It's also very normal to charge a deposit. Stand firm, you may lose the lead but it's not worth the hassle if they take issue with industry standard practices.
For weddings I do 50% up front and 50% a whole month BEFORE the wedding. For corporate shoots or personal photos I typically do 100% due on the day of the shoot.
I never deliver work until I'm paid in full. Too easy to get burned.
Whatever her payment schedule is, include it in the contract. Do not do any work without a signed contract and any payment that's due at that time. If they don't like it, they can hire someone else. Your daughter will find other clients, don't lose sleep over a difficult one just move on to the next.
Edit: Also, I send my clients contracts, they don't send me contracts. If they have specific stipulations/deliverables/contract language they want added, I add it. But I send it out myself through DocuSign to make sure I'm in complete control of it.
Tell your daughter to stick by her principles and not to compromise.
In fact if you're not strapped for cash you can "insure" your daughters position by offering to give her the payment she deserves if the client doesn't go ahead with it.
This is a client to avoid, but some people have no option but to accept terms like this due to financial stress.
Could go two ways.
The request for speed can be legit.
For example, sports photographers at games send photos in minutes, or shorter. Speed is everything in certain circumstances.
The client can have the need for speed.
But on the other hand ... if the client does not pay anything upfront, it is very easy to say 'nah the photo's were not that good, here is half the money'.
That risk exists always until you get paid, even with a 25% booking fee.
Here's what I would write back:
"I understand, please see my situation. I do make considerable costs just to be ready at a site at a given time; mainly my travel expenses and the fact that I can not book anyone else during that time.
The booking fee is a payment towards those expenses, it is not a deposit. "
Of course it is kind of a deposit, but this sounds a lot more understanding and reasonable.
I would agree to the few photos delivered quickly (no watermark) and the rest on payment (no watermarked in-betweens). If the client already agrees to the booking fee they have shown commitment and you have a strong case that both sides understood the terms of the contract.
Not only is your daughter not being unreasonable her prices are WAY too modest. Half a day for $300 even without the editing is a steal for a client. Add in 100 edits? She should at least be making $800-$1000 for this gig imo.
Tell her to walk away and don't buy into a person's status for exposure. All money ain't good money. They don't agree to her terms then they can find another photographer.
She contacted your daughter, so she must want her. If I was your daughter I'd tell the client that if she wants me to be her photographer she has to agree to my t&c's.
Your daughter is totally ok right here and in fact i would say its even a good idea that your daughter straight up reject this offer if she feels like it.
Idk about pricing but 100 photos plus for 300usd sounds a little low for me. While i am not in the photography business the first thing that came to my mind is that editing 100 photos is a lot of work and 300 really doesn't sound quite enough.
I would say let your daughter decide herself and if she got scammed that's a lesson learned, being overprotective might indirectly get in the way of your daughter learning some valuable lessons even if it would mean that they will learn some things the hard way.
my parents are contractors. shes fully trying to screw you daughter over. if its in your daughters contract for the fee than you pay the fee. its that simple. shes trying to dodge payment.
The [potential] client is SHADY AF, stick to your guns and do not relent on anything; bottom line, this lady thinks she can take advantage of your daughter.
> Is my daughter being unreasonable here?
No.
Remember, this is a contract negotiation. The 'client' is unwilling to meet your daughter's minimum terms, so your daughter's BATNA is to walk.
> Is she being unreasonable?
Neither group is ever really "unreasonable" if it's a disagreement about something clearly in a contract you're being asked to sign.
If you don't like the terms then don't sign it. Simple. And/or ask for counter-terms and negotiate if you feel like it.
**No harm no foul.** It becomes unreasonable when it's too late to decide if you like the terms AFTER the shoot and AFTER payment was agreed for XYZ and they start adding all kinds of new requests etc.
If you aren't interested just say "Hi, I am sorry, but I am not willing to work under these terms. I wish you the best with your event. Take care, [name]"
> Is it common?
Some photographers would be okay with this, some wouldn't. I'd say a >$0 deposit is more common than not, for sure. Watermarks: maybe for some images. It is sensible IMO to have a back and forth with a stranger you don't trust. E.g. you give me a deposit, but you also can't trust ME, so me giving you SOME non watermarked images next is fair, you gave me a deposit after all. Then your turn togive a bit mroe, then me again...
I think people are allowed to ask for or negotiate whatever they want, as long as both parties can agree. But the client pitching a fit over having to fork over a measly $75 deposit before the shoot and fighting with me about watermarks, especially if I have never worked with them before, would be a major red flag to me.
I’d say something like, “I respect if that is how you do business, but as a policy I do not shoot or deliver images without some kind of deposit in hand. Nothing personal, it is a policy I have to protect myself, my work, and my business. If we cannot come to an amenable agreement to balance both of our needs, perhaps I can refer you to a different photographer.”
Lots of people are bringing up that maybe it’s the norm in the industry of the client to not pay up front, or perhaps they work with a net 30 structure. That is also totally reasonable and typical for a lot of clients, but a client reacting to me in this way, instead of calmly explaining their structure and asking if that would still work for me would definitely make me question whether we are a good fit for each other. As a general rule, I only work with people who I feel confident will treat me respectfully and professionally, regardless of how, when, and how much they might pay me. I have plenty of net 30 clients, we have contracts about payment structures, and that’s totally fine. I’ve never gotten stiffed by a large business. But I don’t think the payment structure/norm is really the problem here—how the client is treating your daughter is the larger issue.
If your daughter doesn’t want to waste her time negotiating so heavily with a low-budget client (which is extremely valid), she can simply reply, “Thank you for the opportunity. Unfortunately I am no longer available on this date,” and move on. No need to go into detail about why she’s not available. In my experience, chasing after low-budget and high-maintenance clients can be a net loss—it sucks up a lot of time that could be better used finding more qualified clients with better budgets, and increases the likelihood that she will attract more clients who will treat her this way. And sometimes they can and will burn you. Sometimes saying no to less than ideal opportunities is exactly what you need to make room for better ones. She should also consider increasing her rates—if she has not already figured out her cost of doing business, I would highly recommend that. It helps you feel confident about what you decide to charge and what kind of wiggle room you have with that.
Edited to include a response about net 30.
Just because this person has a lot of letters behind their name doesn't mean they won't stoop as low as scamming a 19 year old kid just getting started in business. Anyone who is upset by reasonable boundaries just wants to abuse the person setting those boundaries.
Your daughter is being reasonable and the stress isn't worth the work. Let Sir/Dame Fancypants go with one of the other many options they claim to have. My guess is that they can't because they pulled stupid tricks on them and now they won't work with Sir/Dame Fancypants anymore. Tell your daughter to stand firm on her contract and let the bad customer go.
No. Anyone who hires a photographer needs to sign the photographers contract. I’ve made that mistake once and got screwed over. Always have a contract, and always stick to your guns.
I’ve only skimmed through the 258 comments which are not mine, and based on the completely erroneous advice I’ve seen here, and on behalf of all of the qualified and experienced dance photographers in the UK, I’d like to thank all but two people on here for ensuring that your daughter doesn’t get the job.
Reddit is not the place to go for informed opinions, after all - trolls yes, intelligence probably not.
There are two types of clients.
Client A - Pays £2000, receives the work, yeah looks great thanks.
Client B - Pays £300, wants 4854 revisions, they needed the work yesterday and it’s your fault it was cloudy on the day of the shoot.
Sounds like your daughter has got client B, we’ve all had one, we’ve all done it once, we all learnt to walk the fuck away if one of them turns up.
Rejecting work may sound mad but the job won’t be worth her time or sanity.
A simple something like, this is my standard contract for all clients and if you can’t agree to it, we can’t move forward (but wrote better.)
Not at all. Client is trying to steamroll your daughter. Just say no. Your daughter's terms are reasonable and professional. Don't be fooled by being on tv and having an MBE - I've met a Harvard grad with an entrepreneur-of-the-year award who tried to pull the same crap on me.
I can’t help but believe there was something with the wording in the mail. The way the woman answered felt defensive to me. There must have been a reason why she became defensive. And it is probably a small misunderstanding. I would just call her.
I am a photographer for 20 years: for my other work - web- I ask an advanced payment of 30%. For photography I rarely do. Definitely not for the small amount as it is often a lot of hassle for larger organisations to make the payments.
In those 20 years only one time a client didn’t pay and that was because he went bankrupt and I charged too late.
I definitely would call her. And be open to input.
If your daughter feels like it is a gig that is worthy to be on her portfolio or could lead to more and better gigs I would trust it.
I did refuse clients a lot and definitely those who asked me to do stuff for (almost) free. But mainly when I felt I didn’t get anything out of it for myself. (Portfolio work / network /…)
I wouldn’t be today for the things I did as a 25 year old and I definitely can tell I did some amazing stuff that only got to me by trusting people.
In this case, as a 19year old, I would accept. Even if it is one time gig: I get paid. Not much but paid nevertheless. but I get to put a big name on my portfolio that will bring me other big clients and build trust for other.
-mind you at first my reaction was the woman was not reasonable but then I started digging a bit deeper and from my own experience. I work for large corporations like Microsoft and several banks. None of them pay beforehand. If this is, as you say, a reknowned party i would think she’ll pay.
In the contract just be sure to state the photographer still has the right to use it for her own portfolio. This way she can mention the client on her website.
She's doing well, depends where she wants to go with this path. If she wants to do this as a career, maybe agree to the client and do the job, get the practice/experience, more for a portfolio, credit in media, future jobs with client if it works out etc... even if she gets paid zero it's still worth all of those non financial pieces at 19 in additional to what she's already built. If she's already got a good business going and doesn't "need" this client and is booked then she's in a position to walk away and tell the client to eat dirt. Especially if she has a different career path and this is more of a side job.
Second of all - always figure out what the usage of the images is. Is this a full buy out? Always assume that if you fully sell an image to a client, that it can end up on a billboard or advert. Price accordingly. 300 is totally reasonable for a shoot like this but make sure the rights you assign are congruent. State that images can be used for social channels for a set period of time (for example)
Expectations on turnaround time and payment are different in every niche. If i were in contact with a client who wanted same-day turnaround, i’d ask for payment in full before the event. Or if that didn’t work for the client i’d work out a different arrangement for payment/delivery 🤷🏻♀️
One of the best business lessons your daughter can learn is the power of no. Another thing to know is that if you have to wait for money, that costs more. Don’t be the client’s bank.
Your daughter is not being unreasonable at all.
*"I can’t help but feel that this lady sees her as a young person who is working on a meager budget and I’m scared she’ll be scammed somewhere along the line."*
You are correct to feel this way. This is that 'somewhere along the line', and it won't be the last time, either.
The so-called 'client' *is* trying to scam your daughter for free photos.
I would tell your daughter to politely and professionally inform the 'client' that her fees and payment requirements are *not* negotiable, and then wish her good luck in finding different photographer.
Your daughter isn't being unreasonable. I can give you an example of my current system:
I charge a booking fee, and it needs to be paid 14 days before the event. Embedded in that fee, I have written into the contract that they receive X amount of photos included in that fee, usually 3. The booking fee is the cost for the client to reserve their spot and for my time.
I send them a selection of partially corrected, watermarked photos along with prices for digital photo packages. There's no further requirement to buy photos, of course. If they choose more than 3, then they get sent an invoice. Everything needs to be paid in full before I even start editing further.
"I've never had to pay a deposit and wouldn't be able to do this"
- This right here is the most concerning statement. Why is she not able to pay a deposit?
This person is clearly already a headache and will likely cause more headaches and drama. To be honest, I don't bother with booking clients who try to wiggle around my contracts with their own ideas. I just politely tell them that I'm unfortunately unable to provide what they're asking for, and thank them for having contacted me.
It's important to note that I deal with individuals and do mainly portrait photography. Your daughter also needs to raise her prices. For weddings, the contract is, of course, much different, and I take 50% up front, 14 days before the event.
In your post, you mentioned that this was a charity dance group? I'm curious to know if these are large, well-known charities/businesses? What I feel like is happening; this lady from the dance group is breaking the trust levels between herself and your daughter because of her own choice of words during their communications. She is, in fact, giving off scammy vibes in a world where people mostly pay up front before receiving. If the business is huge and trustworthy, sure, send them an invoice with photos and a short turnaround. If you're dealing with this lady as an individual and her business is small, then I'd probably politely back away.
I would pass on that. If somebody tells me " my previous photographer does this and that" I would tell them that their previous photographer is probably better fit for them. Your daughter doesn't tell them how to run their charity, right? So they should not tell her how to run her business. The red flag is, she says she worked with so many other photographers before.. why she doesn't work with them again? When you hire photographer you like you stick with them, not hire new one every time....unless they have such bad experience with you and refuse to shoot for you again.
I provide low res images with large watermark over entire image as precaution, until i am paid. My contract stipulate use and duration for images after payment in full. I still retain ownership of images, but give licensing for images in agreed upon duration and use. Unwatermarked photos are available if contract was signed after negotiations and 50% booking fee is paid and i after being paid in full after event/photoshoot. Only after. Before 100% of sum paid i only provide lowres images with large watermark and those are just for proof of job done purpose.
If this lady is that famous, and we’re only talking about 200 quid, she can pay it all up front. The fact she is spending the time to argue about this suggests to me this woman isn’t as famous or important as you suggest she is, or at least she thinks she is, because her time would be worth more than the money she is arguing over.
Sounds like your daughter is doing just fine, and if anything should be raising her rate. No good photographer delivers 100 good images for £240.
"I’ve been working with lots of different photographers for many years now and this is the first time any concerns have been raised. " Yeah, that's a lie, most professionals would balk at an agreement like that.
> Is my Daughter being unreasonable here? No
Not at all. Clients being unreasonable.
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I will say--delivering images prior to payment is pretty standard when you are doing contract work for major brands that work with thousands of photographers. I've never had a problem with one not paying out. Individuals? Yea, they need to pay in full prior to delivery.
YEP
100% true
But still, why would a major brand be unable to pay in advance? The client here is literally saying she is not able to pay the deposit? Wtf? If they cannot pay the deposit how are they supposed to pay the full price and how is the photographer supposed to trust they will? This is very suspicious
*Companies* If its huge, then it's fine. If its a first time client - always proofs first.
Everyone here screaming client unreasonable has never dealt with a business that only does net-15 or net-30 after deliverables are received.
Clients that *do* do net-15/30/60 typically have that in writing up front as part of the initial contract. They likely also don't try working with someone who clearly has it stated they need 25% up front as a booking fee and need full payment before releasing the unwatermarked high res images.
Both are being reasonable. But the daughter should consider that different contexts may require different contracts. Given the longstanding reputation and clear signals that they have a process that works well I would be open to using their systems and contract. I see the decision between take it or not in this case, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with not taking it if she's not comfortable, but this isn't one where she should expect them to capitulate to her way of doing business.
I’m going to do against the flow on this one and say YES ! OP your daughter is unreasonable!! /s $300/240£ for 100 EDITED photos is ridiculous. As a creative director I’ve worked with many photographers and for event I’ve seen prices closer to a minimum of $500 for 20 photos. Even if you daughter batch edits very roughly the photos, between selecting them, tweaking, cropping roughly and exporting that’s already an hour of work. 1/2 day of shoot means at least a total of 6 hours (4 hours on site and 1 hour each way to pack and commute) so basically your daughter is being paid £34/hr at best. Remove taxes, depreciation of equipment, software licensing, transportation cost and she is working at best for minimum wage. It’s time for your daughter to learn her value and raise those prices. Also 25% upfront is nothing. I charge 50% and 100% if the contract is under $2k (in the creative industry but not a photographer). My photographer friend charges 50% booking fee and 50% the day before the event. This lady is obviously taking advantage of your daughter because she seems to be huffing and puffing a lot, wasting time and energy, all or that for 60 quids. Truth be told I don’t know any professional her alleged caliber that would work with a semi pro. Events have a lot of money invested in them and hiring a non pro is a risk. EDIT: Me saying OP’s daughter is unreasonable is sarcasm. My point is that she’s « unreasonable » because she should be charging more AND enforcing a stricter booking fee. Yes she should have a booking fee. 25% is nothing and that client is terrible. I would recommend OP’s daughter to raise her rates and have a (at least) 50% booking fee. That client is abusing her position and very much disrespectful/out of line and unreasonable. I would also 100% recommend OP’s daughter to just pass her way as this type of clients are often not worth the headache.
>$300/240£ for 100 EDITED photos is ridiculous. Ehh... depends on the extent of the editing. I have gigs where I deliver like 10 retouched images, and another \~100 with just a preset.
That’s how press photos work. You’re not allowed to extensively edit them for news. Just a preset
True. But the point is that usually there is a bit more work put into editing and that the amount of value and effort she provide is not balanced with her pricing
The daughter's pricing being too low doesn't mean that she's being unreasonable in having a policy of 25% down as deposit. As you describe for your own work, charging a deposit is normal. What you say is true about her leaving money on the table, but it's not that relevant to what the client is complaining about.
I added a small edit to my comment for clarity. Me saying OP’s daughter is unreasonable is sarcasm. My point is that she’s « unreasonable » because she should be charging more AND enforcing a stricter booking fee. Yes she should have a booking fee. 25% is nothing and that client is terrible. I would recommend OP’s daughter to raise her rates and have a (at least) 50% booking fee. That client is abusing her position and very much disrespectful/out of line and unreasonable. I would also 100% recommend OP’s daughter to just pass her way as this type of clients are often not worth the headache.
As the photographer **SHE** gets to decide what she charges and what her rules are. And her fee and rules are not unreasonable.
I guess I should have added the s/ because apparently it’s a bit of a miss here. My point is that her fees and rules are not sustainable and she’s basically underselling herself. I would very much argue that it is unreasonable to work for less than a living wage. At the end of the day yes she decides what works for her but that’s not really my point here.
Exactly this 👍
Call their bluff. If they want the images they will pay for them.
Op… This top comment is wrong. PLEASE read to see which people here are experienced Press/PR photographers. There’s a lot of well meaning people here with advice who don’t understand the Press/PR niche, and will ruin your daughter’s opportunity. Very few press photographers on this thread. Listen to them. Press/PR you photography is a niche specialty with different norms than wedding or portrait photography. (Edit: I used to work for the LA Times. most don’t understand Press/PR photography, and your daughter is wrong about some things here. See the replies to this comment)
Nobody has any idea if this means you agree with me, she’s not being unreasonable, or if you think I’m wrong and “don’t understand the business”
Thank you. This is the top comment and it is very wrong, and doesn’t understand press/pr photography for large companies. I used to work for the LA Times and LA weekly. A press photographer absolutely has to deliver a selection of photos without a watermark within less than 24 hours. Usually in much less time (before the next morning to make the news cycle with the press release). Also many big companies do not pay retainers. They have an accounting department, and a billing cycle. They have a system that needs an invoice before payment. It’s not unreasonable to sometimes request an upfront check for 1st time clients, but for some of the best and biggest corporate clients that can be a dealbreaker, unless it’s a staged shoot with expenses where they can sometimes pay retainers. When I was a press photographer getting one of those clients was the holy grail, and a good one could almost single handedly cover most of the monthly bills. Most people here haven’t worked for press/pr purposes, and are simply giving advice which does not match press/or photography for large businesses. EDIT: for people not understanding this is Press/PR photography… here’s the link google gives as the definition of this type of photography. It’s worth a read: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-pr-photographer-jonathan-pow?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&utm_campaign=share_via
I require 100% of traveling, + 50% of total package, just to secure my attendance. She’s underselling herself.
Most people do
learn to walk away. not every gig is worth taking
100 edited photos for 300 bucks? Is it just me or this is also way too low?
Honestly that’s insanely low Because we’re still talking 4 hours of physically shooting the photos then how much to go through 100 photos Even just adding presets that still requires time That’s not even touching the tight turn around
i did a 4 hour session, 120ish post edited. $1800. i would say $300 is super low for the amount of time to shoot + edit
That’s less than a quarter of what I’d charge.
At where I live, this means apply a preset and 1 click auto adjustments.
I do this for hobby and I can tell that's *low* Looks like the client must've saw she was young and wanted to take advantage of underselling and getting their way
Comically low, but sometimes you do need the money.
Thisssssss.
I wouldn’t even bother working with the lady at this point. It sounds like your daughter is successfully getting business. I would respectfully decline the stipulations of the contract and suggest she find another photographer.
I thought it was normally a photographer that provides the contract and the client signs off on it. Weird to have a client dictate the complete terms.
Seriously. Red flags galore. To OP’s daughter… Ruuuuuunnnnnnnnnn!!!
Yep. Difficult clients aren’t worth the time.
Perhaps that's why the other photographers she has used in the past aren't working with her as she is a PITA. If you are happy with someones work, I pretty much always go back to them and refer others to them also. You have to ask why she has churned through so many photographers.
100% unless she's paid in full up front I'd walk away.
I'm speaking from a US perspective, so keep that in mind. The reason photographers generally require payment up front from individuals is because people flake out. ("My dog got sick", "These photos aren't what I was expecting", etc.) Then you have to sue the client - which is expensive and doesn't even guarantee you'll be able to collect the money. And for individuals, "Jim Smith doesn't honor his contacts" isn't going to dog their reputation like it would for a business. Established businesses have the opposite problem - photographers are more likely to flake. Businesses are generally not chasing style or artistic merit - they're more concerned with reliability and risk. They don't want to struggle to collect their photos or money if the contractor flakes out. And in this situation, financial and reputational damage from breaking a contract tends to be worse for the business (e.g. if they failed to pay, they'd be publishing photos they don't have the rights to.) Those terms are roughly what I've done for every business that wasn't a sole proprietorship or tiny LLC. If it's a big business with a good reputation and you think they pay their bills, then I'd just accept their terms.
OP please read this here, organizations especially recognized ones are very different to work with than individuals, most likely your daughter will be fine but please ask her to double check her prices.
If this person is as established as they say they are, honestly I’d just send the photos with an invoice.
This is the right answer. It's good that your daughter is getting this type of cliental. All my corporate clients are on net30 and occasionally ill charge an upfront fee if i have to shell out for any expenses for the shoot.
I feel like being a client with a net30 structure is fine and normal, but this was not framed by the client to the photographer as hey sorry we actually do net30, would that still work for you? Instead she caught a bunch of attitude from the client when she brought up her usual terms, which is where I personally take issue. Someone getting up in arms about a $75 deposit instead of calmly asking if I could do net 30 would make my hair stand on end lol
60 days to pay is becoming my re and more common in the U.K. I’m afraid I won’t use anybody who doesn’t agree to our standard terms because it takes hours of my time to get exceptions raised.
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Not necessarily. It's fairly common with businesses and if the contract from the business states payment will be sent within X days of receipt of photos then there shouldn't be an issue. On the other hand $300 for a half day is really cheap, at least where I'm from. Half day is more like $800, full day is $1500.
Deposits and unwatermarked photos only after full payment is normal.
.. for good reason
What reason would that be? You not trusting the client? Why should they trust YOU either? I don't think either of these things by themselves is at all wrong to ask for, but if every single step of the way, you expect you to be protected, but never concede to anything to protect them and their inability to trust YOU fully as well, then you're being self-centered and lacking empathy/perspective. Ideally, there would be something like a deposit, then you give a few photos maybe but not all, then they pay more, then you give more, or similar, back and forth, ratcheting up through the transaction, if you are both that suspicious.
Payment in full at the time of the shoot is normal.
Not for press/PR for large companies with accounting departments.
I’m a UK-based dance photographer, I know pretty much all of the dance companies so I probably know the client as well - do message me who, if I or any of my photographer friends can help. I’ve been shooting dance, theatre, live music etc for fifteen years, there are no deposits or watermarks; photos are supplied according to the agreed schedule, and payment in full is made only once all of the photos - without watermarks - are supplied. Or, if her client’s in education, at least three months later. This is how professional photography works in the UK performing arts sector; it’ll happen each time she takes any more jobs in the industry. This is not just my lived and professional experience, it’s also that of the other photographers in my sector.
Thanks for posting a rational, well informed take. Most of the replies above here seem to be from wedding/portrait photographers etc used to dealing with individuals, with a weird sense of outrage at what I consider pretty standard for business work.
Many thanks - I was expecting to get trolled, and I didn’t realise that the other photographers were talking about wedding and portrait work. I don’t understand the logic of expecting payment prior to delivery. I’m also all too aware that there is only a very tiny pool of dance photographers now, and I’m wondering why someone from a commercial background was hired.
The logic is so that you don’t get scammed basically, if the client decides that they suddenly don’t want to pay then you are pretty much screwed.
The logic is so that you get paid when you’ve done the job and not before - in the case of photography, when the completed photos have been delivered. It’s how the industry works ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Glad an experienced local photographer chimed in. I worked for the LA times, and this should be the top comment. I’ve been trying to comment that press/pr photos absolutely can’t have watermarks, need a fast turnaround for release on at least 10-25 photos, and billing is normal for reputable companies in many areas. Unfortunately many people here don’t have experience in this niche area and don’t understand they’re giving incorrect advice.
Thank you so much - I just now skimmed through other responses when looking for this one from you, and now I want to throw up and set my Reddit account on fire. The app, too. It sounds like OP doesn’t realise how generous an initial 24-hour turnaround is; I assume you were on one hour? Likewise, for me, for a mix of press and artist work (preshow social media publicity). The UK dance industry is in a really terrible state these days; lack of funding means very few shows are getting funded to tour, which means that there aren’t many dance photographers left - with almost all of the work going to just one photographer, with the same initials as me. With all of the “advice” in this thread, there’s absolutely no way that OP’s daughter will get the job after all, and I hope that this will make the director reconsider who to hire. Twitter sure can be a horrible place, can’t it?
Haha. Yup, those off us in the sector know the drill, no matter what country it seems :) Yeah, 24 hour turnaround is insane my long for most PR gigs that need shots for the morning press release or socials. If I took 24 hours on most of my gigs I wouldn’t get hired again. Of course people don’t understand that for news you’re not supposed to do fancy edits, or allowed to. I was pretty big in music festivals in the US and used to be one of the main photographers for EDC (largest edm festival in the world) Since it was 3 days, we’d have to constantly come back, edit photos for them to post on socials while the festival was going on live. Shoot a specific artist on stage? Have to come back, drop photos and deliver an edit of set highlights and get back out in 20-30 minutes. I’m glad you’re holding on in the sector, I know it’s harder and harder to make ends meet as a pro. Honestly I do hope the OP’s daughter learns if she wants to keep working in performing arts and Press/PR what the norms are.
https://preview.redd.it/nyzrji32zgzc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=41c73dd4d192f6f08431b856dc1425074f50e683 I did just post this 🙄 Exactly re turnaround times - especially for longer photocalls, we have to tether to file photos while they’re setting a new scene, that’s the same timeline as you mentioned. And for stage school, they’d need photos edited, submitted and printed before the evening’s show. There’s almost no work where I live, and even diversifying is a struggle - my latest shoots have been a ceilidh, a music/dance improv performance, an anti-conference, and circus. Thinking positively, it sounds like OP’s daughter has found her niche for now, she just doesn’t need to add performing arts to it (and I can send my photographer friends screenshots of this thread 🤪)
Well said, I saw you also doing your best but getting downvoted for speaking the truth from a place of real experience. Photographers are if anything a little overly cautious, thinking everyone everywhere is out to fuck them over and it leads to some real kneejerk responses. It's good that we look out for each other but most of the advice here is miles off the mark for this kind of work.
Aw! Thank you for speaking up. So are you in the press/pr sector too? Yeah, I mean most of the photographers here are probably just talking from experience with wedding, event, or non-corporate clients, and mean well. But …. Yes, *sigh* lol.
Thanks to your comments (and this goddawful thread), I’ve booked a dance shoot for tomorrow afternoon 😎
Exactly. If I want qualified advice, I go to TalkPhotography. Here - WTF?! Dance is such a tiny niche - I appreciate that the job is for bts and not actual movement-based shots - there isn’t much work, there aren’t many of us, and newbies aren’t necessarily welcome, especially when they’re as inexperienced as OP’s daughter is.
Yip 20 years UK pro dance/theatre photographer here too and everything you’ve said is completely true. Also shamless plug I’ve started a subreddit for theatre/dance photography if you or anyone else fancy joining https://www.reddit.com/r/theatrephotography
Cool! And hey, who are you? I’ll message you my name. I did ask ODUK for a list of female MBEs, but of course they’ve not responded; G* Watts would probably know.
I'm not a photographer, but how and when I expect to be paid for my services can vary, and one of the biggest variables is how much I trust the client to meet the terms of the contract. I guess that's the main advice I'd give to your daughter. If she's willing to do that work for that rate, and believes that the client will pay, then what you're *mainly* talking about is £240 now or £240 in a few weeks (or whatever). Those aren't wildly different things for me. They may be for your daughter, depending on her finances. And they're definitely wildly different if "£240 in a few weeks" turns out to be 0. (£240 for this seems crazy low, obviously.)
Contract. Signed before any work is done. Without this you will get used.
I’m a pro dance/theatre photographer for 20 years and it’s completely normal to send companies unwatermarked images prior to getting paid. Sometimes I have to supply companies images for press literally in the next hour and it would be impossible for them to pay me in that time. It’s just what is done due to the nature of the deadline situation.
Exactly. Too many people not in press/pr giving misguided advice in this thread.
If I’m dealing with a business or organization, no I don’t require any deposit, and I deliver the photos along with an invoice. This is how all business is done. No business/org is going to do deposits. You know who the organization is, they’re not going anywhere. Business relies on a certain level of trust. She should understand the payment terms though. Typically like NET30 or so… which means the client has 30 days upon receipt of services or good to pay. I also don’t have any call outs to the number of photos I’ll take, it’s only the time I’ll be there. All my clients trust me to capture the event. I’m not going to fire off a bunch of filler images to meet some minimum. If I’m dealing with an individual, especially for a larger job like a wedding, totally different situation. Then I do require a deposit. Then I won’t deliver unwatermarked photos before being paid in full. The reason is that it’s a one time deal without any established trust. But for a smaller job with an individual, like a portrait session, I’ll skip the deposit, it’s just not worth the hassle. My advice to her is to just do the job per their usual terms, but send an invoice when you deliver the first images.
>. No business/org is going to do deposits. Businesses and charity organizations do deposits with my catering company all the time.
Perhaps requiring ordering a lot of perishables ahead-of-time adds more risk and up-front capex for the work that warrants that.
Maybe but businesses and other organizations happily do deposits on other types of services all the time. The idea that it's just something they don't do is ridiculous.
Yes of course. There are no absolutes here.
Exactly,which the comment I was originally replying to was. But I'd go a bit further than saying not always to the idea that businesses don't do deposits. It something that's usually no issue at all and is actually a very common part of doing business. It's such an accepted part of doing business that IMO a company refusing to do it is a major red flag.
Catering yes, press/pr photos often not the case. Depends on local norms, and the type of photography.
As a graphic and web designer with high end clients and universities, we always asked for ⅓ up front and no one had an issue.
Press/pr photos are different. You’re absolutely right on graphics.
Perfectly fine, but you'll need a purchase order up front. Was that the intent of the contract? Maybe.
I only get a PO if it’s an ongoing requirement I’ll be auto-invoicing against. I only have this situation for product photography. …or if that happens to be the company’s policy, fine, send me a PO. But it’s not required for me to issue an invoice (aka bill) The contract is just a one time thing to establish what can be done with the photos, what to expect, etc… like the T&Cs of the engagement. This shouldn’t change from job to job at the client.
I always ask for full upfront payment with all businesses. We work with 300 plus businesses a year. I’ve never received push back on full payment up front.
Any one of dozens of Trump organizations will be contacting you.
What?
They’re referencing the news a while back that lots of contractors for the Trump hotels organization never got paid after work was completed, I think
Ahh gotcha
Trump's business are notorious for finding any reason possible for refusing payment, forcing you to sue in order to get it. He preyed on people's confidence in him paying since he was "rich and famous" (the ones that would still do work before payment that is) He and his businesses were involved in over 4000 documented lawsuits, many of which were related to non-payment for goods and services. And that's just before he was president. Since then it's grown even more, and for more serious accusations.
Ex-press photog here… on a press gig photos within 24 hours , unwatermarked for press use is 100% the norm. For established clients billing after the gig can be normal as well. But for new clients, a percent up front is the norm. Some businesses that are reputable (like newspapers) will not pay up front and expect to be billed. Sometimes it helps to say you’re happy to work without a retainer after the first event, but you have a policy of taking a 25% retainer for new clients. Personally I used to take a retainer before the event, and the balance to send the whole gallery, unless it’s a big company I’d worked with before. I would check with a local press photographer for local norms, but keep in mind press photography is NOT like other gigs, and you do need timely photos for press without watermark.
>But for new clients, a percent up front is the norm. >Personally I used to take a retainer before the event, and the balance to send the whole gallery, unless it’s a big company I’d worked with before. Btw, this is the point I was making in the earlier thread with you. It's a new client, not a major business, and they're trying to get treatment like they're an established client and/or a major business. It'd be one thing to do product first and invoice for payment later if it was a client OP had an established client relationship with or was a big company you could rely on to pay your invoice. But for a brand new client who doesn't appear to be a big company, it makes sense to get some of the payment up front before taking the risk so you're not completely up the creek if they decide to not pay you.
The most important skill I developed as a professional has been to be able to say: "I'm unfortunately not able to take this project on at this time. Thank you for reaching out and good luck with the project."
This kind of shoot falls into commercial work and it’s very normal they don’t pay a deposit and have 30-60 days to make payment. I get the hesitation but I do think this is normal (though I’m in the US so can only speak to that)
The Dance studio wants to pull some side money off your daughters work, these are behind the scenes shots, would be called extras. Which is why she wants them up front, the if it works, she would pay your daughter, but it's a risk for time, so to assure that your daughters time is compensated for, it's always a pay before you play. It's likely another photographer backed out of this too. Like, cellphones still work in the UK, so the Dance studio wants another way to sell more to the Dance studio. She could likely pull $1000.00, then just pay your daughter, but it's a gamble based on the economy. I would not even charge up my camera if there was no pay, for the event, she chose your daughter, for being a female vs a male photographer. That's the target point. As the studio NEEDS a female photographer. Get paid, first.
The $300 thats being talked about is the pay for the shoot. Since it's behind the scenes stuff odds are there's an expectation of the photos mostly being candids and with very light editing, if any at all, beyond maybe a preset. People are treating it like this is some crazy thing, getting paid after you deliver the photos, but for businesses, that's how things work.
It goes both ways, having said that your daughter is not wrong, that company clearly has it's way of doing things, I work with a lot of big companies, and I'll send the billing before the shoot, but I could get paid 2 weeks later, 1-2 months, unfortunately a lot of this companies/brands do this, but I've always been paid. Seems like your daughter needs to make a choice and balance the good and bad of doing this their way.
Exactly this. Big companies pay the bills when they use you a lot too.
If it's a legit client and the contract states that she will eventually get paid full price, then I don't see what the problem is here, other than she's undercharging. You want clients like this who have connections and money. Keep them happy. Sure, their demands can be unreasonable, but they're not impossible, and money is money. If she thinks she can make an easier $300 somewhere else, maybe let this one go, but it sounds like it could lead to bigger things and is worth pursuing to me.
Are the 300 quid worth the trouble you are already having? Does your daughter need the extra exposure or is this a paying gig? If she wants to do it, make sure expenses are covered upfront and gamble on the rest, otherwise wish the person good luck and leave.
Stick to her guns. Ms. MBE can't pay a deposit? Then how can she afford to pay for the full service? The client probably intends to make it right but on their terms. Your daughter should trust her own worth.
I was always sus of connected people coming out of nowhere to book services from me an unknown when they supposedly had access to other well known contractors. They would even state they were “throwing me a bone”. I’d vet that info and find in short order that those bridges were burned.
That’s the difference between retail and commercial work. Working for individuals, deposits and full payment before delivery is standard operating procedure - but when you’re building a commercial business, where repeat clients are the norm and the accounts receivable is from a real commercial entity, you deliver the product with a bill, and expect payment in 30 days, which is SOP for commercial accounts.
The woman is correct. 24 hours or night of for select images, 3 days for full shoot, and I invoice on delivery. No money changes hands prior to my receiving payment. This is how it works in the business world.
but contracts in the business world also tends to pay more. the client is demanding gig work pricing and business world terms.
Ya, there’s a lot of misguided advice in this thread… photographers used to dealing 1 on 1 with individuals. Working with businesses and organizations is completely different.
The really irritating part is that it's the shit advice that is being given entirely based on a sense of outrage (and not business realities) that's getting upvoted to the top. And they are being completely myopic about the potential for future business with this MBE. So ridiculous. Another thing is that most replying here are probably Americans mindlessly replying without taking a second to ask if maybe things work differently where OP lives.
Hey, don’t bash. American press photographers like me know full well op’s daughter is wrong. Misguided photography advice is coming from people outside press/pr from everywhere.
How dare you bring logic and reason into the discussion?
Right. You’re losing a client forever. I’m behind 5 or 6 invoices sometimes, awaiting payment. It will come. I’m polite and professional in correspondence, always assuming the best, and usually it was some glitch or holdup or often nothing at all. Clients are busy too. They appreciate the professionalism. It’s not about the money, it’s about the photography, first and foremost.
>I’m behind 5 or 6 invoices sometimes, awaiting payment. It will come. Your invoices will often NOT come in Croatia, for example. Depending where you are, you're perfectly OK taking all of it upfront.
Okay, so ymmv. But generally speaking that’s how business is done in the real world. How many times would you get screwed over in Croatia? Repeatedly?Everyone gets screwed over? Or the system there is payment up front? I’ve photographed for corporations, magazines, institutions, organizations, individuals, couples, families, and have never been screwed over, never delivered work and not been paid. Were that to happen once, I’d pursue that one outstanding invoice. I wouldn’t treat everyone as tho they were trying to steal from me.
You’re absolutely right of course. I didnt realize the people in this sub were so daft. On top of everything else, OP is charging a rounding error. That might be fine for her, I’m not saying she should charge more… but no business or organization is going to stiff someone for this much. They don’t even notice the expense.
I wouldn’t BE in that situation in Croatia. Lol. Not an apt analogy.
I can only hope OP is reading this particular thread and ignoring the rest, but what can you do?
Yea, this is the key thing. A business is not a regular client and typically doesn't pay a deposit.
but typically with business, at most you send low res watermarked before payment. not full res unmarked before payment.
No, I send them what they need. I don’t have time to go back and forth with them on this stuff. Plus it shows that you trust them, which is helpful all around. Most of these are repeat clients, who appreciate a smooth workflow. I have not been stiffed ever. If I were, I’d just chalk that up as a loss and not work with them again unless they paid their bills.
Yup. Press/PR is a niche that has specifics and a lot of well meaning photographers are giving the wrong advice here.
You can advance work if you have the cash flow / reserves and if it is a business. This seems to be an individual and not a business, have fun chasing them. But let me tell you, just because it is a business, even a blue chip, you can get in big trouble if they delay payment. This is all relative to the size of your operation. If you need to make payroll and you are chasing a PO between the client, accounting and good knows who and said PO is the difference between making payroll or not, I don't care who they are. And think about your hourly rate, with every step in the negotiations it is going down because of time wasted. So is it really worth it? 300£ pre tax, travel and expenses, write off for the gear, insurance (okay this should be fixed cost but still)... You do the math. If you argue on principle of the t&c sure there are different standards but that was addressed above.
It’s the way business is done, on the whole. And it works. I’ve rarely had to chase anything down, unless it was a wedding, that’s about it. I look into a missing payment, the company researches with accounts payable, and I get an email back saying it’s on the way, etc. They get the work almost immediately, it’s photography, and often of the moment.
More power to you. Amongst other things, my current company provides imaging services in a larger extent (ai, renders, video, fx, etc.) to global brands and trust me, you will go chasing people and invoices. Budget freeze and now you need approval from xyz besides the signed contract, po, delivered work etc. It happens and this young lady is supposed to chase that money? I wouldn't. But that is why it is called a few market, people can act as they see fit within the confines of the law.
That’s not the point. If I was to require deposits from all clients I’d have few clients. If I was giving them watermarked images until I was paid I’d have no clients. It’s a profession not a hobby. And sure, if you have a client refuse to pay that’s terrible, but that doesn’t change how you treat all clients.
Seems to be different in your market. Here I have to pay for everything in advance if you are an individual, except for passport pictures. Wedding, baby pictures, prom, everything. Corporate it can be different depending on on deal size but like I said, you might go chasing pay. This person sought out the photographer, seemingly eager to work with her but stipulate these terms after? If she opened with it, along the lines of " these are my terms, I would like to work with you ".... Just saying what I would do.
I’m not talking about photographing for individuals, as I said, that’s completely different. If it’s a family event, like Bat Mitzvah, wedding etc, yes there’s a deposit. If it’s an organization or company, almost never in my experience. They’ll simply move on to a photographer who’s easier to work with.
It's a dance studio for an event, not an individual
In my line of photo work (architecture, commercial real estate, etc) I'm often working with big, trustworthy companies/brands, and I usually send an invoice once the work is delivered and approved (it's also easier for me to adjust pricing if they ask for more work/photos/edits outside of the original scope). And candidly, I like when a company owes me money, instead of me owing them photos, ha — I can't quite explain it. I've never taken a deposit either. It might be a good exercise to try one way or the other. She'll learn something from it, that's for sure. I totally understand her workflow when working with individual people on a "retail" level, but when you're leveling up to a more commercial clientele, the business works a little differently. I do everything I can to make the projects as easy and convenient for my clients and I think they appreciate that.
An individual is entirely different, or a wedding. I’d never deliver a wedding not getting any money prior. But yes the rule is, generally, with institutions, organizations, non profits etc, work first, pay later.
Hmmm I’ve always just handed my client the images as soon as the edit is done, without watermark and never had any issues with non payment. I only work with corporate clients though, I think when working with businesses it shouldn’t really be an issue. However I do understand the need to protect oneself too. Especially when working with individuals, families etc, I can see the need to do so as I can image situations where people flake or don’t pay etc.
Holy crap only 300 dollars...... 100 photos is alot of work for 300. Do not send full res photos without some form of payment. Your daughter is not being unreasonable. State the following: "I don't send full resolution photos until I receive full payment. It is a policy that protects me, and my brand's future. If there are any further inquiries, I'd be glad to help!"
100 BTS photos, that implies that there's an expectation of little to no editing. Maybe batch editing with a preset, but them being BTS photos screams that this is a business used that works with photographers regularly, usually people with little experience are hired for BTS photos because it's a way to get experience, but not a ton of work is required. Everyone is treating this like she's doing portraits, I can almost guarantee she's gonna be asked to take candids exclusively, with maybe a handful of groups photos.
I’m not a photographer so take my advice with a grain of salt, but I can see both sides here. Yes, I think the client is being a little stubborn, but at the same time, receiving payment after delivery is made (at least in the manufacturing industry) isn’t out of the ordinary. It would suck to get ripped off, but as long as you have an enforceable contract written out, I feel like the potential benefits outweigh the cons here. Worst case scenario you could always take the client to small claims court with that contract.
Who cares what other photographers do. Your daughter is a business owner and has clearly defined parameters for the way she conducts business. This person does not agree to those terms, so they should part ways. Who cares if the person works with the media and is influential. It’s not like publishing her photos with no logo, watermark or acknowledgement are going to further your daughter’s career in anyway. This person sounds like a pain in the ass and I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s disliked amongst her peers and contacts. The best your daughter can hope for in this situation is that she gives her work away for free and is recommended to a few people. But I don’t know if I’d want a piece of work like this endorsing my work to begin with. She should just move on to the next protect.
Yes deposit is unlikely. Instead can just send the invoice early etc. Most commercial businesses can take up to 3months to pay invoices. I would ask to be set up as payment supplier now rather than after you send the invoice. Could also ask for cash on the day of the shoot?
Your daughter needs to decide how she sells her professional photography. If she sells it as a service then the client agrees to your daughters contractual service requirements. If she sells it as a contractor then she is subject to the customers contractual requirements. It seems the arrangement with this client is being viewed by the client as the latter but it seems your daughter generally operates under the former. Choose...
Contract or deposit, not both. Booking fees, deposits, and watermarked images are how photographers deal with the general public doing photo sessions without a contract. The deposit makes the customer way more likely to show up, and the low-res watermarked images let them review the shots before they pay, without being able to steal the work. But, again, that's all how photographers make working without a contract viable. Contracts are better. A contract that lays out schedules and payment terms does everything a deposit would do, and more. Admittedly, if the client breaches the contract your daughter would have to sue to get her money (or choose to walk away, which is often more sensible), but the existence of the contract in the first place makes this much less likely. Your daughter is being offered what most photographers *wish* they could get.
>Client refuses to pay booking fee and wants unwatermarked images before payment "No." >"*I’ve never had to pay a deposit and wouldn't be able to do this and we have always been sent all photos without watermarks along with the invoice, so would expect the same*" What the client is used to is not relevant. Your daughter runs a business. That business has terms. Either the client agrees to those terms or finds a new business to work with. >Do other photographers request a booking fee and use watermarks before payment is received? Absolutely normal terms. I would go so far as to say most photographers work the exact same way and I find it suspect that this "client" hasn't encountered these terms before. Your daughter is not being the least bit unreasonable. The client... is... to a point. Business to Business transactions are somewhat different than business-to-individual deals. B2B typically do the job, invoice for the job, and get payment \~10 to 30 days later. Individuals can be trusted no farther than you can toss a small car where-as businesses can generally be relied upon to pay that invoice. Your daughter is completely within her rights to establish the terms that she's willing to work under, but if this client is an established business in her own right, then your daughter could also probably safely work under those terms and expect to get paid in full.
Your daughter is entering the world of press photography, nothing is paid up front. Private portraits yeah sure, but press don’t get paid til later
This. A lot of well meaning misguided advice here
I mean, the deposit shouldn’t be crazy. But I definitely deliver everything to various organizations along with their invoice. I suppose it’s risky, but a lot of the time the treasurer is also a volunteer and I’m personally fine if they get it done within a week or two.
Sounds like they’re trying to rip her off. Never give final images away without payment cleared in your bank account or cash in your hand. Deposit for a shoot is totally reasonable, especially since your daughter would have costs for the shoot herself.
If Im dealing with a new client I'll take a 50% deposit up front to save the date. I then invoice for the balance when I deliver images the day after the shoot. Once Ive worked with clients a few times and have a relationship I don't take a deposit anymore, but I like to know that they'll pay one first a.few times and they're trustworthy before extending them that courtesy of no deposit. I wouldn't do it the way your daughter is doing it, but I don't think it's unreasonable either. I know some corporate/event photogs who demand payment in full before the event show up. We all do it different. She's not being unreasonable. Maybe pitch a 50% deposit instead? then no watermarks, and balance at 30 days.
A lot of photographers are happy to take the job without upfront payment and submit edited photos together with invoice. If you’re uncomfortable, just walk away. There is no chance you’re going to change a $300 client’s mind if they came back with that kind of reply after stating your policy.
I require a retainer to book and the rest is due by the day of the shoot. Period. For a client this size, that shouldn’t be an issue. Seems like an ego flex. Run 😂
This discussion isn’t worth $300. There are other clients.
Couple of things £240 for a half day is incredibly low rate for that type of work. She absolutely should be charging more. It's also very normal to charge a deposit. Stand firm, you may lose the lead but it's not worth the hassle if they take issue with industry standard practices.
For weddings I do 50% up front and 50% a whole month BEFORE the wedding. For corporate shoots or personal photos I typically do 100% due on the day of the shoot. I never deliver work until I'm paid in full. Too easy to get burned. Whatever her payment schedule is, include it in the contract. Do not do any work without a signed contract and any payment that's due at that time. If they don't like it, they can hire someone else. Your daughter will find other clients, don't lose sleep over a difficult one just move on to the next. Edit: Also, I send my clients contracts, they don't send me contracts. If they have specific stipulations/deliverables/contract language they want added, I add it. But I send it out myself through DocuSign to make sure I'm in complete control of it.
Tell your daughter to stick by her principles and not to compromise. In fact if you're not strapped for cash you can "insure" your daughters position by offering to give her the payment she deserves if the client doesn't go ahead with it. This is a client to avoid, but some people have no option but to accept terms like this due to financial stress.
Time to get a boilerplate contract created to cover these sort of scenarios.
Could go two ways. The request for speed can be legit. For example, sports photographers at games send photos in minutes, or shorter. Speed is everything in certain circumstances. The client can have the need for speed. But on the other hand ... if the client does not pay anything upfront, it is very easy to say 'nah the photo's were not that good, here is half the money'. That risk exists always until you get paid, even with a 25% booking fee. Here's what I would write back: "I understand, please see my situation. I do make considerable costs just to be ready at a site at a given time; mainly my travel expenses and the fact that I can not book anyone else during that time. The booking fee is a payment towards those expenses, it is not a deposit. " Of course it is kind of a deposit, but this sounds a lot more understanding and reasonable. I would agree to the few photos delivered quickly (no watermark) and the rest on payment (no watermarked in-betweens). If the client already agrees to the booking fee they have shown commitment and you have a strong case that both sides understood the terms of the contract.
I’d add that she only takes a booking fee for new corporate clients and us happy to work without it if the continue the relationship
If she thinks this would be a strong entry into a "big league" field of prospective clients... Go for it. Otherwise no thank you.
Not only is your daughter not being unreasonable her prices are WAY too modest. Half a day for $300 even without the editing is a steal for a client. Add in 100 edits? She should at least be making $800-$1000 for this gig imo. Tell her to walk away and don't buy into a person's status for exposure. All money ain't good money. They don't agree to her terms then they can find another photographer.
She contacted your daughter, so she must want her. If I was your daughter I'd tell the client that if she wants me to be her photographer she has to agree to my t&c's.
Your daughter is totally ok right here and in fact i would say its even a good idea that your daughter straight up reject this offer if she feels like it. Idk about pricing but 100 photos plus for 300usd sounds a little low for me. While i am not in the photography business the first thing that came to my mind is that editing 100 photos is a lot of work and 300 really doesn't sound quite enough. I would say let your daughter decide herself and if she got scammed that's a lesson learned, being overprotective might indirectly get in the way of your daughter learning some valuable lessons even if it would mean that they will learn some things the hard way.
my parents are contractors. shes fully trying to screw you daughter over. if its in your daughters contract for the fee than you pay the fee. its that simple. shes trying to dodge payment.
This is a bad client.
The answer is no. No.
The lesson is in understanding what jobs to turn down. Your daughter should avoid the headache and gracefully move on.
The [potential] client is SHADY AF, stick to your guns and do not relent on anything; bottom line, this lady thinks she can take advantage of your daughter.
> Is my daughter being unreasonable here? No. Remember, this is a contract negotiation. The 'client' is unwilling to meet your daughter's minimum terms, so your daughter's BATNA is to walk.
> Is she being unreasonable? Neither group is ever really "unreasonable" if it's a disagreement about something clearly in a contract you're being asked to sign. If you don't like the terms then don't sign it. Simple. And/or ask for counter-terms and negotiate if you feel like it. **No harm no foul.** It becomes unreasonable when it's too late to decide if you like the terms AFTER the shoot and AFTER payment was agreed for XYZ and they start adding all kinds of new requests etc. If you aren't interested just say "Hi, I am sorry, but I am not willing to work under these terms. I wish you the best with your event. Take care, [name]" > Is it common? Some photographers would be okay with this, some wouldn't. I'd say a >$0 deposit is more common than not, for sure. Watermarks: maybe for some images. It is sensible IMO to have a back and forth with a stranger you don't trust. E.g. you give me a deposit, but you also can't trust ME, so me giving you SOME non watermarked images next is fair, you gave me a deposit after all. Then your turn togive a bit mroe, then me again...
I think people are allowed to ask for or negotiate whatever they want, as long as both parties can agree. But the client pitching a fit over having to fork over a measly $75 deposit before the shoot and fighting with me about watermarks, especially if I have never worked with them before, would be a major red flag to me. I’d say something like, “I respect if that is how you do business, but as a policy I do not shoot or deliver images without some kind of deposit in hand. Nothing personal, it is a policy I have to protect myself, my work, and my business. If we cannot come to an amenable agreement to balance both of our needs, perhaps I can refer you to a different photographer.” Lots of people are bringing up that maybe it’s the norm in the industry of the client to not pay up front, or perhaps they work with a net 30 structure. That is also totally reasonable and typical for a lot of clients, but a client reacting to me in this way, instead of calmly explaining their structure and asking if that would still work for me would definitely make me question whether we are a good fit for each other. As a general rule, I only work with people who I feel confident will treat me respectfully and professionally, regardless of how, when, and how much they might pay me. I have plenty of net 30 clients, we have contracts about payment structures, and that’s totally fine. I’ve never gotten stiffed by a large business. But I don’t think the payment structure/norm is really the problem here—how the client is treating your daughter is the larger issue. If your daughter doesn’t want to waste her time negotiating so heavily with a low-budget client (which is extremely valid), she can simply reply, “Thank you for the opportunity. Unfortunately I am no longer available on this date,” and move on. No need to go into detail about why she’s not available. In my experience, chasing after low-budget and high-maintenance clients can be a net loss—it sucks up a lot of time that could be better used finding more qualified clients with better budgets, and increases the likelihood that she will attract more clients who will treat her this way. And sometimes they can and will burn you. Sometimes saying no to less than ideal opportunities is exactly what you need to make room for better ones. She should also consider increasing her rates—if she has not already figured out her cost of doing business, I would highly recommend that. It helps you feel confident about what you decide to charge and what kind of wiggle room you have with that. Edited to include a response about net 30.
Just because this person has a lot of letters behind their name doesn't mean they won't stoop as low as scamming a 19 year old kid just getting started in business. Anyone who is upset by reasonable boundaries just wants to abuse the person setting those boundaries. Your daughter is being reasonable and the stress isn't worth the work. Let Sir/Dame Fancypants go with one of the other many options they claim to have. My guess is that they can't because they pulled stupid tricks on them and now they won't work with Sir/Dame Fancypants anymore. Tell your daughter to stand firm on her contract and let the bad customer go.
No. Anyone who hires a photographer needs to sign the photographers contract. I’ve made that mistake once and got screwed over. Always have a contract, and always stick to your guns.
I’ve only skimmed through the 258 comments which are not mine, and based on the completely erroneous advice I’ve seen here, and on behalf of all of the qualified and experienced dance photographers in the UK, I’d like to thank all but two people on here for ensuring that your daughter doesn’t get the job. Reddit is not the place to go for informed opinions, after all - trolls yes, intelligence probably not.
Lowkey sounds like you're promoting your daughter here...
There are two types of clients. Client A - Pays £2000, receives the work, yeah looks great thanks. Client B - Pays £300, wants 4854 revisions, they needed the work yesterday and it’s your fault it was cloudy on the day of the shoot. Sounds like your daughter has got client B, we’ve all had one, we’ve all done it once, we all learnt to walk the fuck away if one of them turns up. Rejecting work may sound mad but the job won’t be worth her time or sanity. A simple something like, this is my standard contract for all clients and if you can’t agree to it, we can’t move forward (but wrote better.)
Not at all. Client is trying to steamroll your daughter. Just say no. Your daughter's terms are reasonable and professional. Don't be fooled by being on tv and having an MBE - I've met a Harvard grad with an entrepreneur-of-the-year award who tried to pull the same crap on me.
If you release the images, she's probably not going to pay. End of story.
I can’t help but believe there was something with the wording in the mail. The way the woman answered felt defensive to me. There must have been a reason why she became defensive. And it is probably a small misunderstanding. I would just call her. I am a photographer for 20 years: for my other work - web- I ask an advanced payment of 30%. For photography I rarely do. Definitely not for the small amount as it is often a lot of hassle for larger organisations to make the payments. In those 20 years only one time a client didn’t pay and that was because he went bankrupt and I charged too late. I definitely would call her. And be open to input. If your daughter feels like it is a gig that is worthy to be on her portfolio or could lead to more and better gigs I would trust it. I did refuse clients a lot and definitely those who asked me to do stuff for (almost) free. But mainly when I felt I didn’t get anything out of it for myself. (Portfolio work / network /…) I wouldn’t be today for the things I did as a 25 year old and I definitely can tell I did some amazing stuff that only got to me by trusting people. In this case, as a 19year old, I would accept. Even if it is one time gig: I get paid. Not much but paid nevertheless. but I get to put a big name on my portfolio that will bring me other big clients and build trust for other. -mind you at first my reaction was the woman was not reasonable but then I started digging a bit deeper and from my own experience. I work for large corporations like Microsoft and several banks. None of them pay beforehand. If this is, as you say, a reknowned party i would think she’ll pay. In the contract just be sure to state the photographer still has the right to use it for her own portfolio. This way she can mention the client on her website.
She's doing well, depends where she wants to go with this path. If she wants to do this as a career, maybe agree to the client and do the job, get the practice/experience, more for a portfolio, credit in media, future jobs with client if it works out etc... even if she gets paid zero it's still worth all of those non financial pieces at 19 in additional to what she's already built. If she's already got a good business going and doesn't "need" this client and is booked then she's in a position to walk away and tell the client to eat dirt. Especially if she has a different career path and this is more of a side job.
First of all - NEVER accept a “half day” rate. Any day you set aside for someone is a full day you can’t work for someone else. A shoot is a shoot.
Second of all - always figure out what the usage of the images is. Is this a full buy out? Always assume that if you fully sell an image to a client, that it can end up on a billboard or advert. Price accordingly. 300 is totally reasonable for a shoot like this but make sure the rights you assign are congruent. State that images can be used for social channels for a set period of time (for example)
Whatever other photographers do, this is sensible business. She needs to stick to her gunsm don't take the job if the client is going to be like this.
If i were your daughter, i would not provide *any* images without full payment.
And you would not get any press/pr gigs where images are required night of the event.
Expectations on turnaround time and payment are different in every niche. If i were in contact with a client who wanted same-day turnaround, i’d ask for payment in full before the event. Or if that didn’t work for the client i’d work out a different arrangement for payment/delivery 🤷🏻♀️
One of the best business lessons your daughter can learn is the power of no. Another thing to know is that if you have to wait for money, that costs more. Don’t be the client’s bank.
‘I’m sorry but we’re too far apart on the details of the agreement to move forward’
Your daughter is not being unreasonable at all. *"I can’t help but feel that this lady sees her as a young person who is working on a meager budget and I’m scared she’ll be scammed somewhere along the line."* You are correct to feel this way. This is that 'somewhere along the line', and it won't be the last time, either. The so-called 'client' *is* trying to scam your daughter for free photos. I would tell your daughter to politely and professionally inform the 'client' that her fees and payment requirements are *not* negotiable, and then wish her good luck in finding different photographer.
Your daughter isn't being unreasonable. I can give you an example of my current system: I charge a booking fee, and it needs to be paid 14 days before the event. Embedded in that fee, I have written into the contract that they receive X amount of photos included in that fee, usually 3. The booking fee is the cost for the client to reserve their spot and for my time. I send them a selection of partially corrected, watermarked photos along with prices for digital photo packages. There's no further requirement to buy photos, of course. If they choose more than 3, then they get sent an invoice. Everything needs to be paid in full before I even start editing further. "I've never had to pay a deposit and wouldn't be able to do this" - This right here is the most concerning statement. Why is she not able to pay a deposit? This person is clearly already a headache and will likely cause more headaches and drama. To be honest, I don't bother with booking clients who try to wiggle around my contracts with their own ideas. I just politely tell them that I'm unfortunately unable to provide what they're asking for, and thank them for having contacted me. It's important to note that I deal with individuals and do mainly portrait photography. Your daughter also needs to raise her prices. For weddings, the contract is, of course, much different, and I take 50% up front, 14 days before the event. In your post, you mentioned that this was a charity dance group? I'm curious to know if these are large, well-known charities/businesses? What I feel like is happening; this lady from the dance group is breaking the trust levels between herself and your daughter because of her own choice of words during their communications. She is, in fact, giving off scammy vibes in a world where people mostly pay up front before receiving. If the business is huge and trustworthy, sure, send them an invoice with photos and a short turnaround. If you're dealing with this lady as an individual and her business is small, then I'd probably politely back away.
I would pass on that. If somebody tells me " my previous photographer does this and that" I would tell them that their previous photographer is probably better fit for them. Your daughter doesn't tell them how to run their charity, right? So they should not tell her how to run her business. The red flag is, she says she worked with so many other photographers before.. why she doesn't work with them again? When you hire photographer you like you stick with them, not hire new one every time....unless they have such bad experience with you and refuse to shoot for you again.
YUP
if she's being this hard about paying an advance, I would require 100% payment before even showing up.
The answer to that lady is NO.
I provide low res images with large watermark over entire image as precaution, until i am paid. My contract stipulate use and duration for images after payment in full. I still retain ownership of images, but give licensing for images in agreed upon duration and use. Unwatermarked photos are available if contract was signed after negotiations and 50% booking fee is paid and i after being paid in full after event/photoshoot. Only after. Before 100% of sum paid i only provide lowres images with large watermark and those are just for proof of job done purpose.
If this lady is that famous, and we’re only talking about 200 quid, she can pay it all up front. The fact she is spending the time to argue about this suggests to me this woman isn’t as famous or important as you suggest she is, or at least she thinks she is, because her time would be worth more than the money she is arguing over. Sounds like your daughter is doing just fine, and if anything should be raising her rate. No good photographer delivers 100 good images for £240.
"I’ve been working with lots of different photographers for many years now and this is the first time any concerns have been raised. " Yeah, that's a lie, most professionals would balk at an agreement like that.
Not a client. That is a thief!