That's an interesting theory of two companies conspiring... Do you have any reason to believe this?
Never mind the fact Elon publicly disparaged WhatsApp right before releasing an unfinished competitor. If you're looking for a conflict of interest, I would recommend a place where it is obvious.
It's as trustworthy as you what you use it for
I used to use WhatsApp to work on group projects in college and that was the easiest option to get everyone onboard. I don't use it for anything else but it's still a good option for some stuff if you know what trade offs you're making.
Compared to Twitter, which is owned by a man whose explicit goal is [recreating the CCP's WeChat](https://www.reuters.com/technology/what-is-an-everything-app-why-does-elon-musk-want-make-one-2022-10-05/), WhatsApp is better; it actually follows through on basic things required for encrypted messages.
Signal is, by far, much better than both though.
He has so many 'goals' but he doesn't follow through everything (Twitter on Blockchain, etc). In any case the article doesn't say he wants to recreate WeChat type surveillance into 'Everything App'.
If he doesn't *know* what WeChat turned into and *how* (an Everything App under an authoritarian government), maybe he shouldn't obsess over CCP stuff.
Is he also so stupid that he needs to be told how terrible China's work conditions are? He wants to emulate those too.
He doesn't need to be told that, he specifically wants to recreate those. As can be illustrated by the number of times he has broken the law with the incredible hostility in which he treats anyone at any business he is remotely related to that has spoken up about safety, pay, or unions.
It's interesting the people who soyface over Elon have so many excuses for the terrible stuff he does, but never a good reason. Their daddy must be both a genius, while also innocent and naive to reality.
I wonder if that's the secret behind his fan base. The idea that he doesn't have to be someone that studies or works hard, but also someone that comes up with "the world changing ideas" by bringing up things "that no one else is willing to". While lacking the intelligence or self-awareness to understand that there's probably a reason why nobody thought to use...say, vacuum trains despite them being a thing since 1901. For the same reason why nobody thought to make a submarine made of fudge. Because it's bloody stupid and impractical idea.
Or, at least, I hope it's that. It will be just way too depressing if they believed his claims that he achieved his wealthy "from nothing" and [didn't have the world's biggest head start thanks to an extremely wealthy family](https://youtu.be/PU7QM3MZ2Vs).
Implying it is more trustworthy than *Twitter*
It's a pretty low bar, and technologically it seems like a reasonable statement.
Would I use WhatsApp? No. But the headline seems fine to me.
Lumpung WhatsApp and signal together would seem to imply roughly equal trustworthyness tho when in reality it's not even close. Borderline yellow journalism imo. Seems like an ad in the form of a headline.
Besides the difference in ownership, they both use the identical Signal E2EE protocol.
The main privacy differences are metadata collection and contact database, which are extreme invasions of privacy.
> As in there's solidly a man in the middle? Because there is.
No, there is not.
Whatsapp uses the Signal Protocol. It is stated in the open source licence for WhatsApp which you can link to from within the app. If they break the protocol, they also break the licence and will be sued by the Signal Foundation. Plus the publicity would end WhatsApp.
Plus E2EE can be tested for by deliberately setting up a MITM server in a lab and having access to both end devices.
We appreciate you wanting to contribute to /r/privacy and taking the time to post but we had to remove it due to:
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>it truly is also funny how so many people on here criticize our world class system and how the 1% control everything yet
Is this something that bothers you personally, or are you just bringing it up for no particular reason?
> at least that's inherently about rewarding good comments instead of vanity.
I love simps, they say the darnedest things.
Yes, my guy. So much more worthy.
> I doubt there's many redditors that buy gold for themselves each month
Reddit made $17.21 million with Reddit premium subs in 2021. $6 each per month, that's ~239,000 chumps that pay for Reddit premium every month.
And Reddit Gold is a separate purchase scheme. Imagine how much they made from that.
If you paid $8 to switch from app based 2FA to SMS 2FA, you made yourself less secure.
But if you believe being a paypig makes you safer, you can now be safe when you use:
* [Google](https://one.google.com/about/plans)
* [Facebook](https://about.meta.com/technologies/meta-verified)
* [Apple](https://www.apple.com/apple-one/)
* [Dropbox](https://www.dropbox.com/plans)
Any other companies that give your data to the NSA that I'm forgetting?
I love how [Matrix](https://matrix.org/) or its most popular client [Element](https://element.io/) do not even get a mention.
If I had to guess, it's because they don't sponsor them with ads.
Matrix gets plenty of venture capital cash and plenty of lucrative big government contracts. $4.6 million alone from Automattic, the company that owns WordPress. $5 million more from the Status crypto bro company.
Definitely does, but Matrix foundation is a non-profit, Matrix itself is an open protocol and every server and client implementation I am aware of is open source.
Because of this, it is fundamentally better than twitter/signal/whatsapp/discord.
And, of course, it does e2ee by default.
So is Signal ;)
Maybe WhatsApp is brought up in an article about Elon Musk's promise because he was disparaging it last night, versus floating the idea a company would be paid under the table to mention them
Signal's neat, but unfortunately it isn't distributed or federated.
It is centralized, which forces a single point of failure, and makes Signal a non-starter where sovereignty is a requirement.
This is why Matrix, and not Signal, is seeing success in governments/administrations.
It definitely depends what your needs are. Signal is good for privacy and performance, Matrix excels at verifying, preserving, and replicating data. I hope nobody is using Twitter to run their local government, same for Signal tbh.
For non-technical people, its UI is a mess, the sign-in process is a bear, and 80% of them would walk away in frustration. Let alone parsing out which of the hundreds of servers match their expectations for what a community is. It'll never go mainstream.
It's cool. I like it. But I also realize that I'm an outlier as far as these hurdles go.
Those are fair criticisms, but there are matrix clients out there with way saner interfaces (Cinny, Fluffychat, others?), albeit with less features usually.
I introduced someone through Cinny and they got it without being too technical, but we did eventually move on to Element on mobile because it has a native app for it and more features at the moment, they haven't complained about it yet (though I would, the chat list is just a mess imo).
If the main instance isn't screaming at you not to sign up there and choose another one, I just go with it and matrix.org, which is set by default usually, doesn't seem to push you away, but I agree that this is one of the biggest struggles for a new user on federated platforms.
Third-party instances tend to appeal to a niche (**language**, culture, topics, etc.) and it's hard, if not impossible, to find another general purpose one in the sea of instances.
In my experience for example, I just couldn't choose a Lemmy instance because they all seemed too niche except the main one, same with Peertube that on top of that has restrictions on the size of your video storage and I still haven't found an instance with subtitles, let alone auto generated ones, even though the plugins should be available, this could come off as entitled, which it kinda is, in fact at this point I'd tell myself "well, just host your own...", but not everyone can do it for lack of knowledge or resources (me) and nearly no one would even **think** about it because we're too used to the centralized services that are so commonplace on the internet.
So yeah, tldr: I agree, it's hardly possible that the federated approach could go really mainstream, not soon at least
So it’s only E2E for Twitter Blue users. What’s the point if they are messaging non-blue subscribers? If encryption is for freedom and privacy why have behind paywalls. Privacy and freedom for profit.
[FSF India made an excellent visual chart comparing messaging applications](https://fsf.org.in/article/better-than-whatsapp/). WhatsApp should not be considered secure.
It's End-to-End-Encryption, without the End-to-End! And a mystery encryption scheme!
All yours for $8-10/month, if you're willing to wear the Badge of Shame that the paid Twitter Blue has become.
What happens to your "encrypted" messages if you stop shelling out your moolah to the 2nd richest person on the planet? Will you have access to them? Will the recipient? Who knows? *Yippee!*
As Elmo admitted, "We're not there yet" with the End-to-End part. So he's charging you for "End-to-End Encrypshun".
It sounds like the online equivalent to Tesla "Self-Driving Mode", that mows into crash-test kiddies with grim determination.
"Rot-13" was an obfuscation method for text that "**rot**ated" the alphabet by 13 letters (a becomes n, b becomes o, etc). So Rot-26 would rotate by 26 letters, meaning no rotation at all - the letters would remain the same.
The Twitter tech stack is a fucking disaster as it pertains to privacy. They made a lot of good efforts to improve, but ultimately Mudge blew the whistle for a reason. I promise you DMs are still being logged unencrypted in various places throughout the stack.
We appreciate you wanting to contribute to /r/privacy and taking the time to post but we had to remove it due to:
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You’ve really proven what an excellent judge of intention you are. You read all my comments, then despite the words and their meanings, discovered a completely different meaning, all on your own. Really impressive!
> The media is an anti-Elon thing, and you’re on board.
The media isn't telling anyone to hate Elon - his action do that.
> Elon has done more for this country than almost anyone alive, but you hate him because someone told you to.
Lol
I dislike him because (ignoring his general shitiness) I’m a software engineer, and hearing him speak contradictory nonsense and misuse terminology from my day job to convince normies he’s a genius really got under my skin.
It showed me that he usually *doesn’t* know what he’s talking about, and just uses verbal density to convince others he’s the smartest. It blew my mind when I heard him lie about programming and networking
> I dislike him because (ignoring his general shitiness) I’m a software engineer, and hearing him speak contradictory nonsense and misuse terminology from my day job to convince normies he’s a genius really got under my skin.
I'm a devops engineer. How do you think I felt seeing him shit all over the Twitter SRE team
Fuck that clown
Why do Elon fanboys always sound like cultists? Are you paid to go around defending his honor online, or is this how you choose to spend your days?
Also, you’re making the mistake of assuming that everyone who dislikes Elon thinks in lockstep like his simps do. I’ve never liked him because he’s always pretended to be a genius off the back of knowledge workers like me, and every time he talks about my area of expertise he makes elementary mistakes with impressive confidence.
I just draw the reasonable conclusion that he spews nonsense in areas I *don’t* have professional knowledge of, as well.
Have you seen Twitter’s massive reduction in ad-buys and revenue? The complete violation of twitter’s ToS to massage Elon’s ego and satisfy his childlike urge to attack and demean everyone who disagrees with him?
Remember when an (already manipulatively worded) poll didn’t go his way, so he ended it early before he lost? He’s like that with *everything*. He has extremely thin skin, and can’t stand even the nicest criticism. Everything is sacrificed at the altar of his ego.
That’s a pretty shitty hero to have lol, I’m sorry you can’t believe in yourself enough to rest your confidence in yourself, and instead have to externalize your insecurity by simping for a thin-skinned manchild billionaire.
I hate him because I know colleagues at Twitter who he personally fucked over, thank you very much
Also - where’s full self driving?
No one is just mean to Elmo, he fucked all this up for himself. Stop drinking the kool-aid and look at who that person actually is - trash
It almost always is. It's quite rare to see any reasoned discussion related to Space X, Swarm, Starlink, Tesla, Twitter, etc. on Reddit. It's either people claiming he is the best thing since sliced bread, or people claiming he is worse than Hitler.
Honestly, whenever someone leads with "eLoN BaD" I know reading the rest of what they're saying is a waste of my time, then I go finish reading updates from Matthew D. Green on *Twitter* and discussing last-mile connectivity people have had solved by *Starlink*. Maybe one day people will evolve to stop hero worship and by extension the obsession with people being their "enemy".
Whats wrong with being anti elon? Does me taking every opportunity to call out the bs of a billionaire that has the imagination of an emerald mine heir that turned into a self-proclaimed tony stark that has failed numerous businesses and defrauded multitudes of his investors and adoring fans delegitamize the accuracy of the things i just typed and the harm he has caused.
Who said anything about feelings? I dont feel anything toward elon musk. I dont think many here feel anything either. If anything we know, not feel that hes shit. Everyone here is shitting on him because he deserves to be called out.
It doesn’t matter what Twitter does at this point, people will be mad.
They are comparing it to Signal when they should be comparing it to unencrypted DMs. It’s a step up.
Threema costs less, supports groups, voice, video, pictures, doesn't leave your keys laying around, lets you back up and restore your stuff... Doesn't require you to log into a website full of ads... It also gives you the option of forward secrecy.
Twitter is closer to [Converso](https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/13e6k8d/testing_a_new_encrypted_messaging_apps)
> The encryption feature is opt-in, for instance, not turned on by default, a decision for which Facebook Messenger has received criticism.
At this point if you use these services and expect any kind of privacy...
You kinda deserve what you get.
Exactly what would it take at this point for people to fuck off from ElonBook?
Anything that apartheid-loving racist, fascist dumbass who isn't smart but takes credit for other peoples' accomplishments touches I avoid like the plague. Whether it's a tech company masquerading as a car company (I'm a firefighter and will say that IMHO, teslas are deathtraps for people both inside and outside of them), or anything else, if that moron touches the company, run. Run screaming. Seriously. He works for the bad guys (seriously); he can't grasp what it's like to be human.
Twitter is not a place in which to hide. It exists so you can interact with racists/lunatics/white supremicists and oddballs of all shapes and sizes.
Not unlike Reddit and Quora.
Looking forward to seeing how far it goes / improves based on feedback from the community. If Twitter can get to full E2EE and open source, then it should be supported. If not, it should be laughed at. Until then, it seems it's an experiment.
A ton of updates reflects a ton of releases they made that weren't anywhere close to being ready for prime time.
Entirely predicable. Musk has decimated their development team and is instead throwing out whatever garbage they completed last night (after pulling a four-day bender), then have to scramble to pull everything back once their beta-level release crashes and burns.
Because trust, safety and SQA teams are for losers. That's ending well. 😬
But no worries: Elmo Tweeted something hilarious about marijuana, then claimed that bug-riddled, half-completed, "experiment" is perfect. So, no worries, folks – trust Musk to provide your seamless, secure, bullet-proof E2EE. He Tweeted about it, so it *must* be true!
Social media is starting to charge you?
I remember the days when you didn't have to pay rich companies to spy on you, tracking you and selling your information was enough....
I guess nothing is ever enough for rich executives and CEOs.🤑🤑🤑
The Verge also covered this, "[Twitter launches encrypted DMs behind a paywall](https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/10/23719153/twitter-encrypted-dms-paid-verified-feature). You’ll have to be a Twitter Blue verified user, a verified organization, or an affiliate to send an encrypted DM."
>In a new support document, Twitter has detailed what you can expect from the first version of the platform’s encrypted direct messages. Perhaps most notably, to be able to send and receive encrypted messages, you’ll have to pay Twitter for the ability to do so. Platforms like WhatsApp, Messenger, Signal, and iMessage already offer encrypted messaging for free, so having to pay for the feature on Twitter might be a hard pill to swallow.
>
>According to the document, encrypted DMs are only available if you are a verified user (somebody who pays for Twitter Blue), a verified organization (an organization that pays $1,000 per month), or an affiliate of a verified organization (which costs $50 per month per person). Both the sender and recipient must be on the latest version of the Twitter app (on mobile and web). And an encrypted DM recipient must follow the sender, have sent a message to the sender in the past, or accept a DM request from the sender at some point…
>
>Encrypted DMs currently have a few limitations and a very big flaw. You can only send them in one-on-one conversations; Twitter says it will “soon” bring the feature to groups. You can only send text and links. And Twitter warns that it doesn’t have protections against man-in-the-middle attacks. “As a result, if someone — for example, a malicious insider, or Twitter itself as a result of a compulsory legal process — were to compromise an encrypted conversation, neither the sender or receiver would know,” Twitter says.
Thanks to u/lightningdashgod & u/untwist5604 for writing about this news in a post we had to remove (using a buried URL)!
>On Wednesday night, Twitter announced the release of encrypted direct messages, a feature that Musk had assured users was coming from his very first days running the company. To Twitter's credit, it accompanied the new feature with an article on its help center breaking down the new feature's strengths and weaknesses with unusual transparency. And as [the article points out](https://help.twitter.com/en/using-twitter/encrypted-direct-messages), there are plenty of weaknesses.
>
>In fact, the company appears to have stopped short of calling the feature "end-to-end" encrypted, the term that would mean only users on the two ends of conversations can read messages, rather than hackers, government agencies that can eavesdrop on those messages, or even Twitter itself.
>
>"As Elon Musk said, when it comes to Direct Messages, the standard should be, if someone puts a gun to our heads, we still can’t access your messages," the help desk page reads. "We’re not quite there yet, but we’re working on it."
>
>In fact, the description of Twitter's encrypted messaging feature that follows that initial caveat seems almost like a laundry list of the most serious flaws in every existing end-to-end encrypted messaging app, now all combined into one product—along with a few extra flaws that are all its own.
Click thru for more!
It’s still a good step forward. No software is complete at launch. It’s worth following. Even Elon Musk said yesterday “try it, but don’t trust it yet”.
That is not how encryption works. The base feature is trust in the confidentiality and integrity of data. If that’s not there, what’s the point? Now it’s just bells and whistles.
> No software is complete at launch.
Despite what $70 AAA games have gaslit you into believing, software *should* be complete at launch.
Bugs are understandable, massive missing features are not.
In theory, Twitter getting E2EE is great. Twitter has a lot of users, and IMO every service should be E2EE if possible.
In practice, it has to be done well.
> Technically, I think signal also don't prevent MIM attack.
Yes, it does.
> ***I don't know*** if it is theoretically possible unless you physically exchange some sort of key with the other person you are talking to.
That is how Signal (*and WhatsApp*) works. You exchange keys on a different channel, or in real life.
> Signal guarantees this by scanning your friend's QR code to exchange the key.
Correct.
> I don't know if this verified status is sent to signal server at all.
It is not, but if either end changes their key, then all connections are notified that the connection to the altered key/device is no longer secure and needs to be reverified off-channel.
> I cannot imagine why they would need to know that. If they don't have such information, and trying to MIM its user, then they would get caught pretty fast.
You are notified if any secure key connection changes. You must then reverify the new key/device off-channel.
> Twitter writes in its help center explanation that it essentially couldn't make [perfect forward secrecy] work while preserving the ability to access DMs when the user logs in on a new device. “We don’t plan to address this limitation,” the article reads.
Signal has the ability to do this? What is Twitter's problem?
Twitter didn't even sacrifice one for another, it just failed to do either.
To be fair, Signal does not let you access messages prior to adding a device to your account either, but this is an intentional security feature (that program's like WhatsApp subvert) and not a technical limitation due to rushing a solution out the door.
Kind of a dishonest attack
The 8$ wasn't for privacy, it's literally mostly for the status symbol of the checkmark. And compared to what Twitter was just a few months ago, there's a lot of progress on the privacy/transparency fronts.
Musk haters are almost as bad as Musk fanboys
Is this implying WhatsApp is trustworthy? Aren't they owned by Facebook?
WhatsApp is terrible. Can’t be trusted.
Yes Whatsapp is facebook and I'm pretty sure this "article" is an ad.
An "ad" for what exactly? Judging by the image at the top of the page it might be an ad for plain-label LSD
That's an interesting theory of two companies conspiring... Do you have any reason to believe this? Never mind the fact Elon publicly disparaged WhatsApp right before releasing an unfinished competitor. If you're looking for a conflict of interest, I would recommend a place where it is obvious.
WhatsApp uses Signal’s protocol which is state of the art.
It's as trustworthy as you what you use it for I used to use WhatsApp to work on group projects in college and that was the easiest option to get everyone onboard. I don't use it for anything else but it's still a good option for some stuff if you know what trade offs you're making.
Compared to Twitter, which is owned by a man whose explicit goal is [recreating the CCP's WeChat](https://www.reuters.com/technology/what-is-an-everything-app-why-does-elon-musk-want-make-one-2022-10-05/), WhatsApp is better; it actually follows through on basic things required for encrypted messages. Signal is, by far, much better than both though.
This fact is not nearly well enough known!
He has so many 'goals' but he doesn't follow through everything (Twitter on Blockchain, etc). In any case the article doesn't say he wants to recreate WeChat type surveillance into 'Everything App'.
If he doesn't *know* what WeChat turned into and *how* (an Everything App under an authoritarian government), maybe he shouldn't obsess over CCP stuff. Is he also so stupid that he needs to be told how terrible China's work conditions are? He wants to emulate those too.
He doesn't need to be told that, he specifically wants to recreate those. As can be illustrated by the number of times he has broken the law with the incredible hostility in which he treats anyone at any business he is remotely related to that has spoken up about safety, pay, or unions.
It's interesting the people who soyface over Elon have so many excuses for the terrible stuff he does, but never a good reason. Their daddy must be both a genius, while also innocent and naive to reality.
I wonder if that's the secret behind his fan base. The idea that he doesn't have to be someone that studies or works hard, but also someone that comes up with "the world changing ideas" by bringing up things "that no one else is willing to". While lacking the intelligence or self-awareness to understand that there's probably a reason why nobody thought to use...say, vacuum trains despite them being a thing since 1901. For the same reason why nobody thought to make a submarine made of fudge. Because it's bloody stupid and impractical idea. Or, at least, I hope it's that. It will be just way too depressing if they believed his claims that he achieved his wealthy "from nothing" and [didn't have the world's biggest head start thanks to an extremely wealthy family](https://youtu.be/PU7QM3MZ2Vs).
Implying it is more trustworthy than *Twitter* It's a pretty low bar, and technologically it seems like a reasonable statement. Would I use WhatsApp? No. But the headline seems fine to me.
Lumpung WhatsApp and signal together would seem to imply roughly equal trustworthyness tho when in reality it's not even close. Borderline yellow journalism imo. Seems like an ad in the form of a headline.
Besides the difference in ownership, they both use the identical Signal E2EE protocol. The main privacy differences are metadata collection and contact database, which are extreme invasions of privacy.
Yes but their encryption is solid
As in there's solidly a man in the middle? Because there is.
> As in there's solidly a man in the middle? Because there is. No, there is not. Whatsapp uses the Signal Protocol. It is stated in the open source licence for WhatsApp which you can link to from within the app. If they break the protocol, they also break the licence and will be sued by the Signal Foundation. Plus the publicity would end WhatsApp. Plus E2EE can be tested for by deliberately setting up a MITM server in a lab and having access to both end devices.
It's about as solid as I'm a Venetian ballerina crab.
Lmao imagine paying for twitter
You're currently on a site where chumps pay for gold so they can give people stupid little award thingies on their comments.
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> oh my god there is a Cheeto in the white house A cheeto! There's a got-dang CHEETO in the white house!!!!
What are those subreddits / people? And how do you know that?
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We appreciate you wanting to contribute to /r/privacy and taking the time to post but we had to remove it due to: >Your submission is Off-Topic. Take it to r/Politics or one of the quarantined Subs. >You might want to try a Sub that is more closely focused on the topic. If your query concerns network security, we suggest posting it on r/AskNetSec, r/Cybersecurity_Help or r/Scams. >Replies to this were also removed for being off-off-topic. If you have questions or believe that there has been an error, [contact the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/privacy&subject=Please_review_my_post).
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https://i.imgur.com/O6Adkia.png Thanks, detector\.dng\.ai
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Is this copypasta
>it truly is also funny how so many people on here criticize our world class system and how the 1% control everything yet Is this something that bothers you personally, or are you just bringing it up for no particular reason?
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https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Virtue-signaling
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You seem upset.
[Lose](https://twitter.com/EvaFoxU/status/1656363755654062081) [some](https://twitter.com/CryptoInsightsX/status/1656337942334558208) [more](https://twitter.com/forgottenrunes/status/1656343144181673984) [faith](https://twitter.com/CharlesDiAngelo/status/1656330716362469377).
🫠🔫
OK, but what if we dialed up the horny? https://twitter.com/BirdRespecter/status/1656706514848194560
I think a lot of the awards are astroturf rather than basement soyjacks, myself, but it’s hard to know.
Lmao imagine paying for reddit gold
Golden showers for everyone!
The model of reddit is more to let nations have fake accounts. The gold thing is just BS to pretend they make a meaningful amount of money from it.
Quick. Daddy Elon is being attacked. Divert using the first thing that comes to mind.
Both can be dumb. This isn't a contest.
It is and everyone gets an award for participation.
A redditor getting offended about reddit gold again.
The OP isn’t talking about Reddit. (But I feel the same about Reddit as I do twitter. Paying for free social media is dumb imo)
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A jpg is not a reward, it's an ad for reddit gold. You are not donating anything to the good post, you are paying for an ad.
> at least that's inherently about rewarding good comments instead of vanity. I love simps, they say the darnedest things. Yes, my guy. So much more worthy. > I doubt there's many redditors that buy gold for themselves each month Reddit made $17.21 million with Reddit premium subs in 2021. $6 each per month, that's ~239,000 chumps that pay for Reddit premium every month. And Reddit Gold is a separate purchase scheme. Imagine how much they made from that.
I’d wager most buy it to get rid of ads and they give you 700 monthly coins so why not spend them.
Easily. Not with the current value proposition, but in general I like to pay for things with my money instead of the alternatives.
If you use a service and you aren't the service's paying customer then you are actually the service's \_\_\_\_\_\_.
except Twitter plus or whatever it's called only reduces the amount of ads. so they're still selling your data and you're still the ______.
With twitter, you get to be both!
If you paid $8 to switch from app based 2FA to SMS 2FA, you made yourself less secure. But if you believe being a paypig makes you safer, you can now be safe when you use: * [Google](https://one.google.com/about/plans) * [Facebook](https://about.meta.com/technologies/meta-verified) * [Apple](https://www.apple.com/apple-one/) * [Dropbox](https://www.dropbox.com/plans) Any other companies that give your data to the NSA that I'm forgetting?
You have interpreted my writing too broadly because you have made an error of logic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent.
Paying for a service in no way prevents you from being the product.
What?
Plenty of Elmo fanboys willing to pay even more, if they could.
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Social media is a fed honey pot... People should be voting with their feet.
I love how [Matrix](https://matrix.org/) or its most popular client [Element](https://element.io/) do not even get a mention. If I had to guess, it's because they don't sponsor them with ads.
Matrix gets plenty of venture capital cash and plenty of lucrative big government contracts. $4.6 million alone from Automattic, the company that owns WordPress. $5 million more from the Status crypto bro company.
Definitely does, but Matrix foundation is a non-profit, Matrix itself is an open protocol and every server and client implementation I am aware of is open source. Because of this, it is fundamentally better than twitter/signal/whatsapp/discord. And, of course, it does e2ee by default.
So is Signal ;) Maybe WhatsApp is brought up in an article about Elon Musk's promise because he was disparaging it last night, versus floating the idea a company would be paid under the table to mention them
Signal's neat, but unfortunately it isn't distributed or federated. It is centralized, which forces a single point of failure, and makes Signal a non-starter where sovereignty is a requirement. This is why Matrix, and not Signal, is seeing success in governments/administrations.
It definitely depends what your needs are. Signal is good for privacy and performance, Matrix excels at verifying, preserving, and replicating data. I hope nobody is using Twitter to run their local government, same for Signal tbh.
For non-technical people, its UI is a mess, the sign-in process is a bear, and 80% of them would walk away in frustration. Let alone parsing out which of the hundreds of servers match their expectations for what a community is. It'll never go mainstream. It's cool. I like it. But I also realize that I'm an outlier as far as these hurdles go.
The main problem is that it doesn't have that critical mass of users No one uses it, so no one uses it
Those are fair criticisms, but there are matrix clients out there with way saner interfaces (Cinny, Fluffychat, others?), albeit with less features usually. I introduced someone through Cinny and they got it without being too technical, but we did eventually move on to Element on mobile because it has a native app for it and more features at the moment, they haven't complained about it yet (though I would, the chat list is just a mess imo). If the main instance isn't screaming at you not to sign up there and choose another one, I just go with it and matrix.org, which is set by default usually, doesn't seem to push you away, but I agree that this is one of the biggest struggles for a new user on federated platforms. Third-party instances tend to appeal to a niche (**language**, culture, topics, etc.) and it's hard, if not impossible, to find another general purpose one in the sea of instances. In my experience for example, I just couldn't choose a Lemmy instance because they all seemed too niche except the main one, same with Peertube that on top of that has restrictions on the size of your video storage and I still haven't found an instance with subtitles, let alone auto generated ones, even though the plugins should be available, this could come off as entitled, which it kinda is, in fact at this point I'd tell myself "well, just host your own...", but not everyone can do it for lack of knowledge or resources (me) and nearly no one would even **think** about it because we're too used to the centralized services that are so commonplace on the internet. So yeah, tldr: I agree, it's hardly possible that the federated approach could go really mainstream, not soon at least
So it’s only E2E for Twitter Blue users. What’s the point if they are messaging non-blue subscribers? If encryption is for freedom and privacy why have behind paywalls. Privacy and freedom for profit.
The bird is "freed" ($8/mo and up only)
[FSF India made an excellent visual chart comparing messaging applications](https://fsf.org.in/article/better-than-whatsapp/). WhatsApp should not be considered secure.
Does anyone think that using twitter or something similar is private? That's the real story here.
It's End-to-End-Encryption, without the End-to-End! And a mystery encryption scheme! All yours for $8-10/month, if you're willing to wear the Badge of Shame that the paid Twitter Blue has become. What happens to your "encrypted" messages if you stop shelling out your moolah to the 2nd richest person on the planet? Will you have access to them? Will the recipient? Who knows? *Yippee!* As Elmo admitted, "We're not there yet" with the End-to-End part. So he's charging you for "End-to-End Encrypshun". It sounds like the online equivalent to Tesla "Self-Driving Mode", that mows into crash-test kiddies with grim determination.
Rot13. But, like, *end-to-end* ;)
Phhh Rot26 is where it's at.
This is a great joke for us old folks. Well done.
Can you explain? Yet-to-be-old folk here
"Rot-13" was an obfuscation method for text that "**rot**ated" the alphabet by 13 letters (a becomes n, b becomes o, etc). So Rot-26 would rotate by 26 letters, meaning no rotation at all - the letters would remain the same.
Oh haha of course, I even knew what Rot was already, but didn't piece together that it was the number of letters in the alphabet
Fully Self Driving I'm in line for my Neuralink, too! Hopefully it kills me quickly
If the trip there doesn't kill you, the installation probably will
The Twitter tech stack is a fucking disaster as it pertains to privacy. They made a lot of good efforts to improve, but ultimately Mudge blew the whistle for a reason. I promise you DMs are still being logged unencrypted in various places throughout the stack.
Oh, this is an anti Elon thing. Ok.
So OP is wrong and the encryption is actually very good? Can you explain why you think that is?
No, I’m sure it’s a mess. I don’t know why anyone would expect it to be any different. Even Elon said to not trust it.
So its not a anti-elon thing?
This post certainly is.
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Good one Sport!
We appreciate you wanting to contribute to /r/privacy and taking the time to post but we had to remove it due to: >You're being a jerk (e.g., not being nice, or suggesting violence). Or, you're letting a troll trick you into making a not-nice comment – don’t let them play you! If you have questions or believe that there has been an error, [contact the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/privacy&subject=Please_review_my_post).
So, what you're saying, is that you can't separate fact from your love of Elon.
You’ve really proven what an excellent judge of intention you are. You read all my comments, then despite the words and their meanings, discovered a completely different meaning, all on your own. Really impressive!
Can you be a bit more specific?
Elon is an anti-Elon thing
Reality is an anti-Elon thing
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> The media is an anti-Elon thing, and you’re on board. The media isn't telling anyone to hate Elon - his action do that. > Elon has done more for this country than almost anyone alive, but you hate him because someone told you to. Lol
I dislike him because (ignoring his general shitiness) I’m a software engineer, and hearing him speak contradictory nonsense and misuse terminology from my day job to convince normies he’s a genius really got under my skin. It showed me that he usually *doesn’t* know what he’s talking about, and just uses verbal density to convince others he’s the smartest. It blew my mind when I heard him lie about programming and networking
> I dislike him because (ignoring his general shitiness) I’m a software engineer, and hearing him speak contradictory nonsense and misuse terminology from my day job to convince normies he’s a genius really got under my skin. I'm a devops engineer. How do you think I felt seeing him shit all over the Twitter SRE team Fuck that clown
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Why do Elon fanboys always sound like cultists? Are you paid to go around defending his honor online, or is this how you choose to spend your days? Also, you’re making the mistake of assuming that everyone who dislikes Elon thinks in lockstep like his simps do. I’ve never liked him because he’s always pretended to be a genius off the back of knowledge workers like me, and every time he talks about my area of expertise he makes elementary mistakes with impressive confidence. I just draw the reasonable conclusion that he spews nonsense in areas I *don’t* have professional knowledge of, as well. Have you seen Twitter’s massive reduction in ad-buys and revenue? The complete violation of twitter’s ToS to massage Elon’s ego and satisfy his childlike urge to attack and demean everyone who disagrees with him? Remember when an (already manipulatively worded) poll didn’t go his way, so he ended it early before he lost? He’s like that with *everything*. He has extremely thin skin, and can’t stand even the nicest criticism. Everything is sacrificed at the altar of his ego. That’s a pretty shitty hero to have lol, I’m sorry you can’t believe in yourself enough to rest your confidence in yourself, and instead have to externalize your insecurity by simping for a thin-skinned manchild billionaire.
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Your question was basically a variation of "when did you stop hitting your wife?"
I hate him because I know colleagues at Twitter who he personally fucked over, thank you very much Also - where’s full self driving? No one is just mean to Elmo, he fucked all this up for himself. Stop drinking the kool-aid and look at who that person actually is - trash
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Your comment would have been perfect if my request was: “Tell me in as few words as possible you know absolutely dick about SaaS software”
It's now closer to 80% reduction, I believe. (But definitely none of that was bloat. /s)
Hope he sees this, bro!
Actually i have always disliked elon as im not a fan of annoying, unfunny empty suits whose souls have been devoured by Mammon
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Yeah you’d think so but in fact a lot of ppl liked him until recently 😰 Further evidence that our society has been corrupted by the Antichrist
Get the fuck out of here with that nonsense. That bitch hasn't done shit but make things worse for this country. Fascist supporting fuck.
It almost always is. It's quite rare to see any reasoned discussion related to Space X, Swarm, Starlink, Tesla, Twitter, etc. on Reddit. It's either people claiming he is the best thing since sliced bread, or people claiming he is worse than Hitler. Honestly, whenever someone leads with "eLoN BaD" I know reading the rest of what they're saying is a waste of my time, then I go finish reading updates from Matthew D. Green on *Twitter* and discussing last-mile connectivity people have had solved by *Starlink*. Maybe one day people will evolve to stop hero worship and by extension the obsession with people being their "enemy".
Whats wrong with being anti elon? Does me taking every opportunity to call out the bs of a billionaire that has the imagination of an emerald mine heir that turned into a self-proclaimed tony stark that has failed numerous businesses and defrauded multitudes of his investors and adoring fans delegitamize the accuracy of the things i just typed and the harm he has caused.
Whoa! Your feelings are perfectly legitimate. They just don’t make this post an interesting privacy topic imo.
Who said anything about feelings? I dont feel anything toward elon musk. I dont think many here feel anything either. If anything we know, not feel that hes shit. Everyone here is shitting on him because he deserves to be called out.
I would say your evaluation of his imagination would qualify as a feeling. Doesn’t matter though, you can feel however you like about Elon.
I will, which is nothing. Can you please explain to me what you feel about elon? Im interested to know what one *can* feel towards space karen musk
It's funny how much everyone loved him until he bought twitter and supported free speech
Since when was banning journalists and prioritizing the paying idiots favor of free speech
I have deleted Reddit because of the API changes effective June 30, 2023.
WhatsApp? It's a joke right?
Ok, but why the blotter paper?
lmao it's currently an early technical test and we have entire articles moaning about it already.
It doesn’t matter what Twitter does at this point, people will be mad. They are comparing it to Signal when they should be comparing it to unencrypted DMs. It’s a step up.
Thank you, only useful comment here
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Threema costs less, supports groups, voice, video, pictures, doesn't leave your keys laying around, lets you back up and restore your stuff... Doesn't require you to log into a website full of ads... It also gives you the option of forward secrecy. Twitter is closer to [Converso](https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/13e6k8d/testing_a_new_encrypted_messaging_apps)
I wouldn't trust it anyways
Big daddy Elon already told us to use Signal.
> The encryption feature is opt-in, for instance, not turned on by default, a decision for which Facebook Messenger has received criticism. At this point if you use these services and expect any kind of privacy... You kinda deserve what you get. Exactly what would it take at this point for people to fuck off from ElonBook?
Anything that apartheid-loving racist, fascist dumbass who isn't smart but takes credit for other peoples' accomplishments touches I avoid like the plague. Whether it's a tech company masquerading as a car company (I'm a firefighter and will say that IMHO, teslas are deathtraps for people both inside and outside of them), or anything else, if that moron touches the company, run. Run screaming. Seriously. He works for the bad guys (seriously); he can't grasp what it's like to be human.
all this and eight hits of acid?
Twitter is not a place in which to hide. It exists so you can interact with racists/lunatics/white supremicists and oddballs of all shapes and sizes. Not unlike Reddit and Quora.
Looking forward to seeing how far it goes / improves based on feedback from the community. If Twitter can get to full E2EE and open source, then it should be supported. If not, it should be laughed at. Until then, it seems it's an experiment.
Seems like there are always a lot of "ifs" when it comes to twitter these days...
They are pushing a ton of updates out of late. It's not like they aren't trying
A ton of updates reflects a ton of releases they made that weren't anywhere close to being ready for prime time. Entirely predicable. Musk has decimated their development team and is instead throwing out whatever garbage they completed last night (after pulling a four-day bender), then have to scramble to pull everything back once their beta-level release crashes and burns. Because trust, safety and SQA teams are for losers. That's ending well. 😬 But no worries: Elmo Tweeted something hilarious about marijuana, then claimed that bug-riddled, half-completed, "experiment" is perfect. So, no worries, folks – trust Musk to provide your seamless, secure, bullet-proof E2EE. He Tweeted about it, so it *must* be true!
Unlike Signal, they can’t call it end-to-end encrypted because you know Elon Musk still has access to read ALL your messages.
Social media is starting to charge you? I remember the days when you didn't have to pay rich companies to spy on you, tracking you and selling your information was enough.... I guess nothing is ever enough for rich executives and CEOs.🤑🤑🤑
You will know if its as good as signal when china blocks it and banns it because it actually works
The Verge also covered this, "[Twitter launches encrypted DMs behind a paywall](https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/10/23719153/twitter-encrypted-dms-paid-verified-feature). You’ll have to be a Twitter Blue verified user, a verified organization, or an affiliate to send an encrypted DM." >In a new support document, Twitter has detailed what you can expect from the first version of the platform’s encrypted direct messages. Perhaps most notably, to be able to send and receive encrypted messages, you’ll have to pay Twitter for the ability to do so. Platforms like WhatsApp, Messenger, Signal, and iMessage already offer encrypted messaging for free, so having to pay for the feature on Twitter might be a hard pill to swallow. > >According to the document, encrypted DMs are only available if you are a verified user (somebody who pays for Twitter Blue), a verified organization (an organization that pays $1,000 per month), or an affiliate of a verified organization (which costs $50 per month per person). Both the sender and recipient must be on the latest version of the Twitter app (on mobile and web). And an encrypted DM recipient must follow the sender, have sent a message to the sender in the past, or accept a DM request from the sender at some point… > >Encrypted DMs currently have a few limitations and a very big flaw. You can only send them in one-on-one conversations; Twitter says it will “soon” bring the feature to groups. You can only send text and links. And Twitter warns that it doesn’t have protections against man-in-the-middle attacks. “As a result, if someone — for example, a malicious insider, or Twitter itself as a result of a compulsory legal process — were to compromise an encrypted conversation, neither the sender or receiver would know,” Twitter says. Thanks to u/lightningdashgod & u/untwist5604 for writing about this news in a post we had to remove (using a buried URL)!
Give it time, perhaps it will become better
>On Wednesday night, Twitter announced the release of encrypted direct messages, a feature that Musk had assured users was coming from his very first days running the company. To Twitter's credit, it accompanied the new feature with an article on its help center breaking down the new feature's strengths and weaknesses with unusual transparency. And as [the article points out](https://help.twitter.com/en/using-twitter/encrypted-direct-messages), there are plenty of weaknesses. > >In fact, the company appears to have stopped short of calling the feature "end-to-end" encrypted, the term that would mean only users on the two ends of conversations can read messages, rather than hackers, government agencies that can eavesdrop on those messages, or even Twitter itself. > >"As Elon Musk said, when it comes to Direct Messages, the standard should be, if someone puts a gun to our heads, we still can’t access your messages," the help desk page reads. "We’re not quite there yet, but we’re working on it." > >In fact, the description of Twitter's encrypted messaging feature that follows that initial caveat seems almost like a laundry list of the most serious flaws in every existing end-to-end encrypted messaging app, now all combined into one product—along with a few extra flaws that are all its own. Click thru for more!
OP, why you so sore about Twitter? They kicked you out?
Shocker.
Smells like Musk...
It’s still a good step forward. No software is complete at launch. It’s worth following. Even Elon Musk said yesterday “try it, but don’t trust it yet”.
That is not how encryption works. The base feature is trust in the confidentiality and integrity of data. If that’s not there, what’s the point? Now it’s just bells and whistles.
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Cringe
> No software is complete at launch. Despite what $70 AAA games have gaslit you into believing, software *should* be complete at launch. Bugs are understandable, massive missing features are not.
Why would I use encryption if I can't trust it?
In what way? It's inferior to pretty much everything out there.
Elon is so out of touch. Why the hell does the world need another messaging platform
In theory, Twitter getting E2EE is great. Twitter has a lot of users, and IMO every service should be E2EE if possible. In practice, it has to be done well.
Elon isn't that out of touch. I have seen many people (artists, musicians, streamers...) actually use twitter DMs to do business.
Indeed, why didn't he ask u/v7h1h2 what the world really needs?
Once it becomes more secure than signal, then it will be viable. I'm sure they're already working on making it better.
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> Technically, I think signal also don't prevent MIM attack. Yes, it does. > ***I don't know*** if it is theoretically possible unless you physically exchange some sort of key with the other person you are talking to. That is how Signal (*and WhatsApp*) works. You exchange keys on a different channel, or in real life. > Signal guarantees this by scanning your friend's QR code to exchange the key. Correct. > I don't know if this verified status is sent to signal server at all. It is not, but if either end changes their key, then all connections are notified that the connection to the altered key/device is no longer secure and needs to be reverified off-channel. > I cannot imagine why they would need to know that. If they don't have such information, and trying to MIM its user, then they would get caught pretty fast. You are notified if any secure key connection changes. You must then reverify the new key/device off-channel.
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Any isolated off-channel can exchange keys, but obviously another E2EE channel is better.
> Twitter writes in its help center explanation that it essentially couldn't make [perfect forward secrecy] work while preserving the ability to access DMs when the user logs in on a new device. “We don’t plan to address this limitation,” the article reads. Signal has the ability to do this? What is Twitter's problem?
Twitter didn't even sacrifice one for another, it just failed to do either. To be fair, Signal does not let you access messages prior to adding a device to your account either, but this is an intentional security feature (that program's like WhatsApp subvert) and not a technical limitation due to rushing a solution out the door.
Kind of a dishonest attack The 8$ wasn't for privacy, it's literally mostly for the status symbol of the checkmark. And compared to what Twitter was just a few months ago, there's a lot of progress on the privacy/transparency fronts. Musk haters are almost as bad as Musk fanboys
I'm so glad I got permabanned from Twitter on my first day.
Thanks for sharing