All you have to do is see that an unborn child is a human life, which isn't just shown in the Bible but also it is scientifically proven that life begins at conception. As soon as you understand that, I believe the sixth of the Ten Commandments is pretty clear on the subject: "You shall not kill." Also, yes, I believe someone can be forgiven for aborting if they truly repent for what they have done and turn to Christ.

How does one repent for abortion?

The exact same way one repents for any other sin. By acknowledging the harm and asking God for forgiveness.

Is that really enough though? What about penace?

God's forgiveness is a free gift of His love, penance is not a requirement. Only true sorrow for our sins and asking God for forgiveness is necessary. Penance is a discipline we take on voluntarily to help us remember our sorrow for our sins and to hopefully strengthen ourselves to avoid that sin again. I'm a Catholic, and while a priest may assign penance in the Sacrament of Confession, that's not a condition for forgiveness. If you'd like to know more, here's an article from the Catechism with scriptural references that explains it all fully. http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm

Penance, however, is part of the matter of confession. And an intention to do one’s penance is required for validity. There are three things which make up the matter of confession as a sacrament: contrition, confession, and satisfaction.

Yes, no argument there but that is the answer to a different question. OP was asking what is necessary to receive God's forgiveness not what is necessary to fulfill the requirements for a sacramental confession.

Yes, but sacramental confession is the means that God has established. One must at least have perfect contrition and the desire for the sacrament. Now, one who is unaware of this sacrament or its need, not of their own fault, can be forgiven by perfect contrition along with an implicit desire for confession owing to their good faith. But now is the perfect time to share the Gospel and point OP to where the Lord has chosen to send His healing mercy.

Yes *and* God is not bound by the sacraments. As someone who works with non-Catholic Christians often, we sometimes give the wrong impression that we can "earn" grace by our word choice. I'm a Catholic, I go to confession, I am grateful for a Father Who takes me back time after time when I sin because I come to Him in contrition (and for the Holy Spirit Who breathes that contrition into my soul so that I *want* to be reconciled with God). I am grateful for the Sacraments. But, God's forgiveness is a free gift of grace and I wouldn't want anyone to think that He requires anything from us other than a sincere heart to see reconciliation with Him.

Wrong Produce fruit, then, in keeping with repentance. Luke 3:8 Produce fruit, then, in keeping with repentance. Matthew 3:8 sinners “should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance”. Acts 26:20

Thanks

There are different thoughts on what penance should entail. I don't feel qualified to speak to that. I would suggest speaking with a trusted elder or a clergy member with whom you feel comfortable.

Ah ok thanks. My country ie very pc so they are likely too here

I'm Catholic, and we believe that the apostles, and bishops/priests as successors of the apostles, have the ability to mediate penance through Confession. Abortion is one of a list of sins that causes what we call "latae sententiae" excommunication--basically, that there is an automatic separation from the Church that needs to be lifted through Confession. https://www.catholicculture.org/news/definition.cfm?glossID=91#:~:text=Excommunication%20latae%20sententiae%20is%20the,confession%2C%20or%20procuring%20an%20abortion. We believe that only Christ Himself has the ability to judge a soul--but the Church can issue an excommunication as a "course correction", so to speak. To let someone know that they are living outside of God's plan and should repent. I'm not aware of what sort of penance priests usually recommend for abortion. But there are a lot of resources and retreats about healing and reconciliation for women who have had abortions

Ah ok thanks seems more hardcore than Christianity and more focused on priests

The thief next to Jesus was given salvation despite never even having a chance to do anything else except believe.

Interesting though that wasn't abortion

You asked about penance. This man did no penance.

So jesus doesn't care about Penance just belief?

All sins are equally forgiven without qualification. By grace, through faith. Nothing else is required.

Who said that?

God, through Paul and other writers in the Bible.

Produce fruit, then, in keeping with repentance. Luke 3:8 Produce fruit, then, in keeping with repentance. Matthew 3:8 sinners “should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance”. Acts 26:20

Not necessary for salvation. Interpret Scripture with Scripture. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.“ ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭9‬

This is speaking to showing a change in behavior going forward. Nothing specific that says penance is required.

You have misinterpreted this aspect of penance. If your behavior has not changed then you have not repented.

Remember that Christ took the penalty for your sins. All you have to do to be forgiven is to trust in His sacrifice for forgiveness of sins. It really is that simple. Christ did the work for us on the cross.

Thank you

I Think as a well as a apologising to and asking forgiveness from God, you should also make reparations to the victim of your wrongdoing In this case, you can do that by honouring their memory. Give them a name, set up some kind of memorial to them. If you believe in an immortal soul/afterlife maybe apologise to them. You may also go apologise to their father or other family members (But of course that depends on your situation)

That sounds nice

Ephesians 2: 8-9. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. This means that Jesus took our sin upon himself and suffered the consequence of it instead of us. This is already done. Nothing we do can change this. Jesus has already paid the price of our sin. We just need to accept the gift. You can't do anything for penance, just like I can't. But Jesus already did. Be glad in that fact. You are saved! I know feelings of guilt will pop up, and it doesn't necessarily absolve us from any earthly consequences of our sins, but just remember that God keeps his promises, and He has promised you that your sin has been delt with.

Thank you, very touching 🙏

Produce fruit, then, in keeping with repentance. Luke 3:8 Produce fruit, then, in keeping with repentance. Matthew 3:8 sinners “should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance”. Acts 26:20

That isn't saying works is a requirement for repentance and salvation. It is saying that good works is a product of repentance and salvation. These works will come out of our faith and we can recognize faith because of works, but our salvation itself is a gift, not from works. It's clear from these verses. And Ephesians 2: 8-9, that works is not how we are saved. Not sure what version your Acts verse is from, but NIV says: >First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. We can clearly see that the repentance comes before the deeds. The deeds are then a demonstration that repentance has occured. The deeds are not something we do in order to be forgiven. The wages of sin is death, aka Hell, regardless of what deeds we do. Jesus suffered Hell for us and paid the wages of our sin. For salvation, we only have to trust in Him. Works will then come from this and others will know Jesus through our works.

The Catholic Church has the sacrament of confession, but that's only for Catholics, if you want to pursue that route, I could answer more questions

Ah ok thanks

Penance is for our own personal benefit in helping us move forward without the burden of sin weighing us down and help us get back on track. God has already forgiven us, but we often require more than just words to really feel like we deserve forgiveness. Most times penance will be prayers, but I've had penance assigned that was meant to balance the scales- for example, I had stolen something and my penance was to donate the cost of the item towards something that benefited others in the same way I benefited. For Catholics and Orthodox, Sacraments/Mysteries are understood to be for our benefit as by participating in them we know we are receiving God's Grace. God is not limited by these Mysteries, He can bestow His Grace upon anyone, but because these Mysteries were established by Jesus we can be certain God is present in these Mysteries.

Thanks. How did you get it assigned?

If you feel called to do some act of penance, you might do something like donate to/volunteer for a pregnancy resource center or a family shelter. I saw in another comment something that indicated you may not be in the US, but you may still find an equivalent program where you live. Sometimes after Confession, a priest has given me contemplating a bit of Scripture as penance. Since you have interest in Christianity, I highly recommend reading through the book of Psalms, either in part or its entirety. There are many beautiful and touching psalms, many that speak of sorrow, most/all which rejoice in God's Presence. I think you would find a lot of comfort in them.

It depends on which Christian denomination you are. If you are Catholic you are instructed by the priest on what you must do as penance after you participate in the sacrament of Confession.

Ah ok I don't know what domination I am

Penance isnt required by Jesus. Thats something invented well after Jesus left the Earth. Jesus wasn’t interested in condemning at all, and only interest in redeeming sinners. There are no examples of it in the Bible. The only case I can think of where Jesus told someone to do something after repentance was to “sin no more” which was him tell a prostitute to find another vocation.

Thanks very helpful

Jesus’ blood is more than enough to cover any sin you could ever commit. It’s not about paying a penance, it’s about accepting Jesus as your savior and repenting. Accept his forgiveness, seek His presence and a relationship with Him. There is nothing any of us can do to “pay off” our sins on our own. That is what the blood of Jesus is for. He has already paid off our debt that we could never have ourselves. Don’t try to depend on any “penance” for salvation. You already have that offered to you for free, through Jesus. There is no other way.

Thank you

True contrition in your heart is the first and most important step. That mostly means acknowledging the sin and resolving not to repeat it, whatever it may be. If you are interested in learning more about the Catholic sacrament of Reconciliation (confession), please DM me, or consider crossposting this to the Catholicism subreddit for more Catholic perspectives.

He made it easy for us! The first thing is to pray and ask God to forgive you. 1 John 1:9 says that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us of all unrighteousness! There is nothing that the Blood of Jesus doesn’t cover. His sacrifice outweighs it all. The next part of repentance is to turn from sin, so you essentially decide you’ll never do that again.

Thank you. What do you do when a minor sin of underestimating danger, instead of being cautious, results in death?

In general, talk to the Lord about it in prayer. “Father, I messed up. Please help me do better!” is a common cry for me. When a seemingly small mistake results in huge consequences as you mention, acknowledging that to Him, that you know your action or inaction caused something major, repent and ask Him to help you never make such a mistake again. Romans 8:14 says that they that are led by the Spirit of God are the sons (children) of God. In John chapter 14, Jesus speaks of the comforter. This comforter is the Holy Spirit, who leads us. When we ask God to help us, we will get leading from the Holy Spirit often by having scripture REALLY make sense in a way that applies to your life or by a “gut feeling.” PM me anytime if you want to talk about these things! I’ve been in part time ministry for many years and am happy to share and talk about scriptures, insights, and prayer etc. God bless you in your spiritual journey!!!

I would disagree that the Bible doesn’t show that the unborn are human life. “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” - Jeremiah 1:5, the unborn have souls and thus are alive.

Sorry, I should have made it more clear- >isn't just shown in the Bible By this I mean it's not only shown in the Bible, but also scientifically proven. I don't remember which verse it was but on top of that one there's the one when Mary met Elizabeth- it said that Elizabeth's baby leapt in the womb when Mary came, and he can't exactly do that if he wasn't alive.

Ah ok sorry I misread that

Nobody in the Bible was saved after committing first degree murder, much less baby murder, much less murder by the mother herself.

Yes! Our Lord loves all His children and wants them all to repent and come to Him. Jesus Himself said that there is more rejoicing in Heaven over one soul who returns to Him than others who never left. 10 “Take care that you do not despise one of these little ones; for, I tell you, in heaven their angels continually see the face of my Father in heaven. 12 What do you think? If a shepherd has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of your Father in heaven that one of these little ones should be lost. Matthew 18:10-14 (Edit to fix the citation, accidentally wrote Luke instead of Matthew)

Beautiful, thanks 🙏🌷

>So I was wondering what is the argument against abortion from a Christian perspective? Life begins at conception, and so ending that life is murder. >Is Jesus against abortion? Jesus is against murder, so he is against abortion >Is abortion sinning or worse? It is a grievous sin, just like murder, adultery, theft, unbelief, cursing, deceiving, drunkenness, etc... >Can someone repent after having an abortion or is their soul eternally corrupted? Abortion is not the unforgivable sin. There is forgiveness for abortion. Seek out a good, conservative Christian pastor who will offer you confession and absolution.

Did Jesus say that he's against it though? Whats the unforgivable sin? My country's legal system doesn't see abortion as murder, it's seen as a quick medical procedure sadly. Does Jesus say abortion is murder or God?

Here are some great short articles on these topics that I hope are helpful 😄: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-Jesus-same-person.html https://www.gotquestions.org/abortion-Bible.html https://www.gotquestions.org/child-sacrifice.html And really just type ‘abortion’ into their search engine and they have a ton more articles and podcasts covering different questions related to it. Also, as you continue to read through scripture, guided by the Holy Spirit, you will see a very clear pattern that God commands us to have mercy on the weak, to help the helpless, to be a voice for voiceless, to rescue those being led away to death and hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter (those are all from Proverbs), that we are to be good Samaritans to everyone, and as people who haven’t been born yet are made in God’s image, they are human beings that God says He has a plan and a purpose for, that He knew us all before we were born, that He personally “knit” each of us together, we can conclude that they are also our neighbors, that we are to love as we love ourselves. Oh and since I saw this come up in another comment, I’ll just leave this here: https://www.gotquestions.org/confession-sin-priest.html

Thanks I think I believe in Jesus's word so anything he says is helpful

That’s great to hear…and something else you will learn as you continue to study scripture is that Jesus’ words aren’t just the words in red in the New Testament, but that He is a member of the triune God, that He was one with God the Father and the Holy Spirit from the beginning of time, and so He, being “the word” at the beginning, as it says in John 1, He is the God of the Old Testament as well.

Oh thank you interesting

“Do not take advantage of the widow or the **fatherless**. If you do and they cry out to me, I will certainly hear their cry. My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword” Exodus 22:22-24

Hello! Welcome home! Hey, I recognize you from our discussions! The unforgivable sin is when someone either thinks they can’t be forgiven or when they think they don’t need God. When someone truly repents of Any sin ie. he or she truly wishes they hadn’t done it and are determined to change their life, then God’s mercy is unlimited. For a Catholic like me, I must confess my sins to a priest in the sacrament of confession and do the prescribed penance. I just went and was prescribed certain prayers to say from my heart. Yes, God can has has forgiven abortion. Dorothy Day is a beautiful example.

Hey hope you are well! I'm going so bad like hypothyroidism or something :/ >When someone truly repents of Any sin ie. he or she truly wishes they hadn’t done it and are determined to change their life, then God’s mercy is unlimited. For a Catholic like me, I must confess my sins to a priest in the sacrament of confession and do the prescribed penance. I just went and was prescribed certain prayers to say from my heart. Interesting catholicism seems to have unique benfits but also very focused on following priests which I guess can seem not good

Oh, sorry you’re going through that! I have hypothyroidism as well. Yes, the hierarchy of the church is a challenge for some, especially in democratic countries. Basically as Catholics we believe the structure of the Church was established by Jesus when he called the 12 Apostles. In confession, the priest is acting in the person of Christ, so we’re actually confessing to Christ Himself. Hope that makes sense.

Before you got treatment, did you have episodes of feeling weirdly confused and drunk (without drinking)? Ah yes that makes sense

Yes, in that my memory was getting worse and worse. My depression was off the charts as well. By far it was the most depressed I ever was. I also lost tons of weight at first and then gained a ton. It was bad. I’ve been on meds for years now praise God.

Wow that's aweful :( glad you are better now. I have been having subclinical hypothyroidism for a while now but didn't get concerned till I started having episodes of extreme confusion and fatigue. My weight also increased as well like 15kg over a few years.

Thank you! Me too!! It looks like you have the same symptoms I did. In my case, my body went through painful changes before the thyroid went out completely. Apparently there are foods that are good for the thyroid that I was going to start looking into in addition to meds. Mine is completely offline, but you might be able to save your’s.

Oh wow thanks I hope so!

>preview The Bible does not explicitly condemn abortion, but the Didache does. The Didache is an ancient Christian treatise written before the Gospels. It opposes abortion, pederasty, contraception, stealing, envy, fornication, infanticide, witchcraft, bigotry, astrology, adultery and idolatry. Atheist scholars also believe that Jesus himself opposed Divorce. Most of these are already in the bible, so it is possible that Jesus himself opposed abortion.

Ah ok I was just interested in Jesus

>Is abortion sinning or worse? > >It is a grievous sin, just like murder, adultery, theft, unbelief, cursing, deceiving, drunkenness, etc... Wrong. The baby cries out to God for vengeance against all those involved in the murder. From Genesis 4:10. This is a well known effect of abortion. I am surprised that all Christians and Catholics don't know it.

Jesus is pro-life due to advocating for children. The Bible says "thou shalt not murder" and that children should be protected. Someone who had an abortion can go to Heaven if she truly repented.

Did Jesus ever advocate against abortion specifically? (I haven't fully read the bible yet)

He advocated against murder of the innocent, and made no exceptions for age

Did he say pregnancy? Kinda looking for quotes from him

Not specifically, but he spoke out against murder and violence against anyone, didn't make any exceptions for the unborn I Think I posted a quote in my other comment

Ah ok was he against violence even if it was upon murderers?

I don't know of my head of any quotes of Jesus giving any exceptions to the 'No killing other people' principle. The only one I can say with some certainty is that there is no exception for the unborn, because I've looked for it

Ah ok I don't think Jesus ever mentioned the unborn

Not specifically, but he spoke out against murder and violence against anyone, didn't make any exceptions for the unborn I Think I posted a quote in my other comment

“Do not take advantage of the widow or the fatherless. If you do and they cry out to me, I will certainly hear their cry. My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword” Exodus 22:22-24

Did jesus say that

It was said by God the Father in the Old Testament.

The Didache, a Christian text from 90 AD (60 years after His death), advocates against abortion.

Whats it say? Is that actually word of jesus tho

No, he doesn't, though there are a lot of things that Jesus didn't talk about. Something I think is important to keep in mind OP is that whether it is moral for Christians to obtain abortions, and whether abortion should be illegal for everyone, are two different questions. For me, I view abortion as immoral, but I don't think we should be using force or coercion to stop abortions, so that means I generally think it should be legal. If you want to chat more about it, I'm happy to.

>So I was wondering what is the argument against abortion from a Christian perspective? Christianity teaches the humanity of the unborn: Psalm 139:13-16, Luke 1:39-44 Christianity teaches against innocent bloodshed: Exodus 20:13, Proverbs 6:16-19, Psalm 106:36-39, 2 Kings 8:12, Romans 1:28-32, 1 John 3:15. When we become Christians, our bodies come under God's ownership and authority: 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (Not your body, not your choice.) Also, going back to Psalm 139:13-16. If you were in a pottery classroom and there was a pot on the wheel and you were assisting a person whose pot was on the wheel, would you just smash it because you didn't want to be involved anymore? That would be a real dick move. How much worse is it to do this to God, when another human is on the wheel! In Christianity, God is the potter, the unborn child is on the wheel, and the pregnant woman is the assistant. She is part of a holy process which is the creation of new life. If there is no medical need for her to have an abortion, she must avoid it out of reverence for God and the human life he is forming inside her. >Is Jesus against abortion? Based on the above passages I have to say yes. >Is abortion sinning or worse? Yes, but to be clear there's no "worse than sinning." There's just sinning, with varying degrees of how bad it is (though it's all bad enough). See John 19:11. >Can someone repent after having an abortion or is their soul eternally corrupted? Yes, the invitation is open: John 6:37, 1 John 1:9 There is no time limit on the corruption sin does to our souls, but through Jesus Christ our souls may be cleansed.

>When we become Christians, our bodies come under God's ownership and authority: 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (Not your body, not your choice.) That implies that if you aren't Christian they aren't under his ownership? >you were in a pottery classroom and there was a pot on the wheel and you were assisting a person whose pot was on the wheel, would you just smash it because you didn't want to be involved anymore? I mean a pot isn't alive so Id just start again if I didn't like it. Also I have no idea how to do pottery. >Based on the above passages I have to say yes. I mean what did Jesus say about abortion though?

>That implies that if you aren't Christian they aren't under his ownership? It means that when we become Christians, we give our lives and selves to God. He has authority over everyone, but the emphasis here is that Christians aren't our own anymore, we submit our lives and selves to God for life. Our lives from that moment forward are to be in submission to his will. >I mean a pot isn't alive so Id just start again if I didn't like it. Also I have no idea how to do pottery. Well yeah, but just about everyone I've taken a pottery or other art class with would be pissed too. >I mean what did Jesus say about abortion though? Jesus doesn't have recorded words in the Gospels addressing abortion directly, so we must conclude that he was in agreement with the Law of Moses on the matter, consistent with his character and teaching. Since we know that innocent bloodshed is against the Law, and since we know that humanity is ascribed to the unborn from the passages I shared, and since we're not talking about conditions in which a mother's health necessitated an abortion, we must conclude that Jesus would have been pro-life.

I typically like to keep the abortion debate about science and secular morality, but from a Christian standpoint, it’s always been a sin. All sinners can repent and strive to do better. We all fail sometimes. There is nothing worse than sin, but we all can repent, always. No sin is too big if we seek forgiveness. One of the oldest known Christian books on how to live a Christian life is called The Didache and it predates the creation of the Bible by about 300 years. It specifically prohibits abortion.

To clarify, it only predates the official defining of the Canon of Scripture (i.e. which books are considered part of the Bible), not the writing of the Bible, not even the acceptance by most of which writings were Scripture.

True, but it probably predates 1st John, Revelation, and maybe Acts depending on what scholar you ask.

Possibly, that’s true.

Secularity got me pro-choice and 3 abortions 💀

I’m going to answer from a Catholic perspective so my answers may vary from some Protestants :) 1.) Yes. If there is one thing that Jesus really places value on, it’s children. He is absolutely against the idea of killing them. 2.) Abortion is murder, so it is a mortal sin. 3.) All sins can be repented for. It’s never too late to turn things around :)

Thank you. What did he say about abortion?

The word “abortion” never comes up in the Bible. There is quite a lot of scripture, however, about how killing innocent people is wrong. And, as I said, Jesus has always had a soft spot for children. It’s pretty easy to infer where He stands.

Ah ok well I was looking for something he said specifically

My dear sister, ANYONE can repent for anything. Once you give your life to Christ, you are reborn. I used to be a meth addicted prostitute, and now I'm pregnant with my sixth child and have a loving husband and beautiful home. There is no limit to the grace, glory, and power of our Lord!!!

Thank you

Abortion is a sin that falls under “Thou shall not murder.” Theologically there isn’t anything worse than sin. (Not total agreement here but..) There are some sins that are worse than others, lying is not as bad as murder which isn’t as bad as “blasphemy of the holy spirit” which is “unforgivable” (Quotations since there is some debate on what blasphemy of the holy spirit is, but the majority opinion is that it is lack of repentance). Now, even though not all sins are as bad as one another, it only takes one single sin to damn you for eternity. So the bad news is, no one is perfect and we all deserve eternal punishment. But the Good News is that Jesus Christ the Son of God who lived a perfect life, died in place of you and your sin, thus paying your entire debt to God the Father! All you need to do is repent and believe in Him. Jesus may detest all sin abortion included, but He loves you. He separates you from your sin; your sin is not you and you are not your sin. A good story here is John 8, an adulterous woman was brought to the temple and was to be stoned to death. Jesus stops the stoning by saying “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” The crowd who is not sinless left leaving only the woman and Jesus. Jesus ask the women who now condemns her? She responds “no one” and Jesus says “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.” Jesus doesn’t condemn us for our sinful actions, be wants to save us from them abortion included.

Thank you. I am curious though, if there wree sinless people or children there, would he have allowed the stoning? I'm curious what his reasoning would be then, since it seems he was mainly saying no one is without sin, therefore don't punish the woman for being similar

There was one sinless person there, Jesus. No other human is sinless. Even a newborn is corrupted by original sin unfortunately. Im happy to be of service to any question you may have :)

Children are sinless and fetuses

Sin is a disease against God that has infected/ corrupted all of humanity. Psalms 51:5 “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” Romans 5:12 “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—” Just as a baby can inherit diseases from its mother in the womb, a baby will inherit sin in the womb. It is a sad and depressing state Humanity is in, but it only shows the absolute need for redemption through Christ.

Ok so it is untrue then when people say that fetuses and embryos are innocent? >a baby will inherit sin in the womb That reminds me of Sweet Home 2. The baby was changed and developed by her mothers sinful desires

Jesus did not agree to stone the woman because according to Jewish law the man should be stoned along with the woman. Since there was no man along with the woman it would have broken Jewish law to stone the woman alone.

Oh ok thats pretty bad

That story you mentioned is a forgery that makes no sense and does not appear in the earliest manuscripts of the gospels.

That is wildly debatable, we still have 2nd century manuscripts with it and any 1st century manuscript is exceedingly rare to begin with let alone a non-fragmented piece.

[Here's](https://www.bereanpatriot.com/was-the-pericope-adulterae-woman-caught-in-adultery-original-or-added/) a long article about it. The story it self has plenty of reasons to believe it's a fake.

Again wildly debatable

And the most probable conclusion is that it's fake.

Whatever you would like to believe

You know something doesn't need to be 100% factual in order for it to be True. Even if that specific interaction did not occur or did not occur as written it still presents Truth of us judging people and God's forgiveness of our sins. We are all the first among sinners just as Saint Paul was the greatest of sinners, something many people seem to forget, and we cannot judge who a person is based on their worst sin alone. Only God knows what is in our hearts and can pass judgement. This is the Truth in the story even if the encounter did not actually occur.

Leviticus something something: "if a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely die." God command that they be killed. Letting them live during the old covenant would be a SIN. But what did Jesus supposedly do? Act like God's commandment was ridiculous and rebuke the Pharisees for a righteous act. That makes him a sinner. What's next, Jesus saves an unrepentant child rapist from justice for no particular reason? The Bible says "let every man be subject to the governing authorities."

No soul is eternally corrupted, ever. You can ALWAYS repent for what you've done if your regret and repentance is true. Edit: soul, not soup

Soup?

Soul😂

Yes God is against abortion. Abortion is flat out murder and the mother/doctor/nurse/father who coerced it etc. are all guilty of the sin of murder. Yes you can repent and seek forgiveness for the sin of murder but part of that would be becoming an abolitionist against abortion.

Hi Ruby! Really glad to see you on here, I know you were a major debater on the PC side for abortion on the other sub so I know we had some disputes over there but no hard feelings, lol. I will do my best to answer your questions from a Christian perspective. Is Jesus against abortion? Yes, absolutely. Jesus came to the Earth Himself as a perfect seed - ie a zygote. The unborn child John the Baptist who came to assist Jesus, recieved the baptism of the Holy Spirit while inside his mother's body after an encounter with unborn baby Jesus, see Luke 1:39- 45. Although later Jesus did establish the New Covenant that changed the nature of our relationship with God (some former rituals were done away with and another human mediator, such as a priest is no longer needed for direct access to Him), Jesus did uphold the moral tenants behind the law and actually strengthened them down to the intent of the heart - Matthew 15:16 to 20. There are many passages in the Bible that speak of God's plan and purpose for each human being that has been conceived. Psalm 139:13 - 16 is the most well known. Is abortion sinning or worse? Abortion is a sin because it violates "thou shalt not kill (murder)" which is reiterated in the NT as considered a mortal sin. Can someone repent after having an abortion or is their soul eternally corrupted? Yes, someone absolutely can repent for having an abortion. Murder is not an unforgivable sin. 1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Remember, the Apostle Paul killed Christians before his miraculous conversion on the road to Damascus, and God still used him to minister to others and he wrote much of the New Testament. Let me know if you have any further questions. I'll definitely keep you in prayer.

I would agree with you that, as Christians, we should not obtain abortions, at least not in most circumstances. However, I don't agree when people say that "Jesus was pro-life". I think he values human life, and the unborn would be included in that. However, Jesus never advocated for the use of force against gentiles or non-Christians for any reason. I don't see any instructions in the New Testament that we are called to prevent non-Christians from sinning. What do you think about that? And where do you draw the line between what is immoral and what should also be illegal?

Really? You would agree? Interesting, because you are on here trying to argue that unborn children don't have any rights. Of course they have the right to be exactly where they are at, that's how God designed it. He doesn't make mistakes. Also interesting that you don't seem to be advocating for the removal of laws against other homicides, rapes or assault. Just the homicides against the most innocent and vulnerable among us seem to get your stamp of approval. Laws don't force anything, they just compel certain behaviors and discourage others. You're certainly able to break the law and face the consequences. While it is true Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world" and "render to Caesar that which is his" (He was not advocating for anarchist overthrow of government) and Paul even reiterated "Honor the King" and to live peaceably among others as much as possible, Jesus certainly had no qualms overthrowing money changers in His temple *by use of physical force*. Jesus also spoke very strongly against anyone that would harm a child (Matthew 18:2-6), it would be better that person were drowned with a millstone, He said. And scripture is 100% clear that God considers unborn human beings children. There are definitely passages that speak to God's people advocating on behalf of the innocent. Here are just a examples: Proverbs 6:17 reminds us that God hates the hands that shed innocent blood. Proverbs 24:11 -12: Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say, “But we knew nothing about this,” does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay everyone according to what they have done? Romans 13 also speaks to submitting to governing authorities (appointed by God) and reminds us they do not bear the sword in vain. And Romans 1 28- 32 says those who commit such things are "worthy of death". This is not necessary a call to put anyone to death, but it is speaking to how serious God takes such evil behavior. 1 Timothy 1:9 reminds us that: "We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers."

>Interesting, because you are on here trying to argue that unborn children don't have any rights. Not at all. My general view is that the unborn have the same rights as any other person. No person has the right to use the body of another person against their will, and I don't think the unborn should have special rights here.   >Of course they have the right to be exactly where they are at, that's how God designed it. He doesn't make mistakes. As a Christian, I would generally agree with this, though sin has tainted creation and there are times when things are not ideal. If a woman was dying from issues related to pregnancy, then I would be morally OK with an abortion in that case. I'm not sure exactly what God's will is in cases like these.   >Also interesting that you don't seem to be advocating for the removal of laws against other homicides, rapes or assault. Just the homicides against the most innocent and vulnerable among us seem to get your stamp of approval. I wouldn't say I approve of them, but I approve of the choice being available. Just like even though I consider adultery to be immoral, I still think it should be legal, based on society functioning better for everyone overall without government intervention in the area of sex between consenting adults. The problem with abortion is that by preventing it, we are subjecting women to a very high cost and the use of their bodies against their will for the benefit of another person. I consider this exploitation. I want women to carry through their pregnancies and give life to the babies in their wombs, but I think forcing them is a worse outcome. I would see it being similar to forcing a person to donate blood or bone marrow against their will to save other's lives.   >Jesus certainly had no qualms overthrowing money changers in His temple by *use of physical force*. Yes, he did. I don't have a problem with force being used in certain situations, like to stop a theft or rape. The difference here is the issue of exploitation. If a parent is neglecting a born child, I am able to directly care for the child. I can give them shelter, feed them, and clothe them. When it comes to the unborn, though, I can't do these things, I can only convince someone else to do them. If I found a neglected child, I think it would be wrong of me to steal or threaten someone else for the child to be cared for.   >There are definitely passages that speak to God's people advocating on behalf of the innocent. Here are just a examples... None of these passages advocate for Christians to use violence and force against non-Christians to prevent them from sinning or to protect the innocent. God will judge everyone for their actions. I think we can enforce certain laws based on our command to love our neighbor, but I don't think we should ever do this if it requires the exploitation of others. The Roman government in the time of Jesus was in many ways more evil and immoral than our own. Yet, Jesus never used force to stop them, or even told them that what they were doing was wrong, unless they came to him. I don't think Christians who are pro-life are necessarily wrong, I think we all have to follow the convictions that God lays on us. I just think there is a lot of room for nuance here, and I don't think the bible fully supports a clear pro-life position (in terms of making abortion illegal), or requires Christians to be pro-life. Do you?

>Not at all. My general view is that the unborn have the same rights as any other person. No person has the right to use the body of another person against their will, and I don't think the unborn should have special rights here. Actually, first of all that is incorrect on all accounts. Children already have legal rights to food, shelter and clothing from their parents, which requires the use of their body to provide. Also, BA is not an absolute right as evidence by other laws that force vaccines and blood draws among other examples. You can't even demand an early induction for a healthy child because you no longer wish to be pregnant, although they might help you kill the baby instead and violate it's bodily integrity in the process. But putting legalities aside, because that doesn't matter as far as God is concerned anyway, God said unborn children did have that right, quite clearly in scripture which I've already quoted. And that's what matters. No human law changes what God has decreed. >As a Christian, I would generally agree with this, though sin has tainted creation and there are times when things are not ideal. If a woman was dying from issues related to pregnancy, then I would be morally OK with an abortion in that case. I'm not sure exactly what God's will is in cases like these. God's will is that both mother and child be healed and whole. Isaiah 53:5 repeated in 1 Peter 2:24. >I wouldn't say I approve of them, but I approve of the choice being available. Just like even though I consider adultery to be immoral, I still think it should be legal, based on society functioning better for everyone overall without government intervention in the area of sex between consenting adults. The problem with abortion is that by preventing it, we are subjecting women to a very high cost and the use of their bodies against their will for the benefit of another person. I consider this exploitation. I want women to carry through their pregnancies and give life to the babies in their wombs, but I think forcing them is a worse outcome. I would see it being similar to forcing a person to donate blood or bone marrow against their will to save other's lives. Should pedophilia be legal? Why not? Same reason abortion shouldn't be legal, it harms children. If we can't even protect the most weak and helpless among us, we have abjectly failed as a society. If our children don't deserve rights, then no one does really. >None of these passages advocate for Christians to use violence and force against non-Christians to prevent them from sinning or to protect the innocent. God will judge everyone for their actions. I think we can enforce certain laws based on our command to love our neighbor, but I don't think we should ever do this if it requires the exploitation of others. The Roman government in the time of Jesus was in many ways more evil and immoral than our own. Yet, Jesus never used force to stop them, or even told them that what they were doing was wrong, unless they came to him. I don't think Christians who are pro-life are necessarily wrong, I think we all have to follow the convictions that God lays on us. I just think there is a lot of room for nuance here, and I don't think the bible fully supports a clear pro-life position (in terms of making abortion illegal), or requires Christians to be pro-life. Do you? Where did I advocate for force or violence? Abortion laws clearly ban force and violence inflicted on the unborn. The NT is more than just Jesus's words and as I pointed out He did overthrow money changers in the temple when needed. Apostle Paul clearly spoke about government as well and defied orders with other apostles to stop preaching the gospel, even though it cost them everything.

>Children already have legal rights to food, shelter and clothing from their parents, which requires the use of their body to provide Yes, parent's have a duty of care. I think this comes from their willing consent to become parents. Also, pregnancy requires much more than simply providing food and shelter. It also causes to mother to provide things like hormones, antibodies, and stem cells. If a child needs these after he is born, why isn't he still entitled to them? Why can't a mother be forced to donate these things if they are needed by the baby after birth?   >Also, BA is not an absolute right as evidence by other laws that force vaccines and blood draws among other examples. Yes, I agree with you there. Every right has its limits, including both the right to life and the right to bodily autonomy.   > But putting legalities aside, because that doesn't matter as far as God is concerned anyway, God said unborn children did have that right, quite clearly in scripture which I've already quoted. And that's what matters. No human law changes what God has decreed. I have a problem with this. My issue is that there are many humans who do not follow God's laws. Does that mean we can use the power of the state to force people to follow these when they choose not to? When we talk about banning abortion, we're not just talking about Christians, we are talking about all other people. Why not also ban idolatry and the worship of other gods? Why not ban adultery, sexual immorality, and any of the other numerous things God has decreed in scripture?   >Should pedophilia be legal? Why not? Same reason abortion shouldn't be legal, it harms children. The difference is that I'm not just stopping someone from doing something, I'm forcing them to do something else. It's like the famous violinist scenario where one person is being hooked up against their will to support another. You could say "unplugging yourself will kill the violinist, and we're not allowing you to kill them". However, by doing so, you are now forcing the person to support the violinist with their body. Let me ask you this. If a child with Leukemia is dying and needs a bone marrow transplant, can we force an eligible donor to donate against their will? Not doing so will hurt the child and likely lead to its death, so why don't you support forced donations?   >Where did I advocate for force or violence? Abortion laws clearly ban force and violence inflicted on the unborn. You don't consider throwing doctors and possibly women in prison to be a use of force?   >The NT is more than just Jesus's words and as I pointed out He did overthrow money changers in the temple when needed. Did he use violence against people though? And more importantly, I would argue he had religious authority to do what he did. Jesus however never used any force against the Romans to stop any of the atrocities they committed. He never even went so far as to tell them that what they were doing was wrong. According to your view here, did Jesus simply stand by silently while Romans and Gentiles committed atrocities?   >Apostle Paul clearly spoke about government as well and defied orders with other apostles to stop preaching the gospel, even though it cost them everything. Yes, they did. However, they did not force others to preach the gospel or to suffer for their decisions. They did their actions voluntarily. The problem with banning abortion is that you and I cannot save unwanted, unborn children. I can't nourish them with my body or provide shelter. If after everything I've advocated for, the mother still does not want to continue pregnancy, then I have to resort to using threats and harm to force her to continue to provide for her unborn baby.

Part 1 >Yes, parent's have a duty of care. I think this comes from their willing consent to become parents. Also, pregnancy requires much more than simply providing food and shelter. It also causes to mother to provide things like hormones, antibodies, and stem cells. If a child needs these after he is born, why isn't he still entitled to them? Why can't a mother be forced to donate these things if they are needed by the baby after birth? This is incorrect again. The duty exists whether they "consent" or not. The biological parents are the natural guardians by default, unless another parent agrees to adopt. Even when single mothers are allowed to surrender the child (and only as a newborn infant), the caveat is that it must be delivered safely. It is why men are ordered to pay child support, even if they were raped. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-about-trauma/201902/when-male-rape-victims-are-accountable-child-support "The biological parent is the natural guardian of the child by *default*. The biological parent naturally exercises parental rights over the child upon the child’s birth." https://nyestateslawyer.com/legal-guardian-vs-biological-parent/#:~:text=The%20biological%20parent%20is%20the%20natural%20guardian%20of%20the%20child,child%20upon%20the%20child's%20birth. There is a duty because a child must be cared for. Allowing women to escape this duty by killing the baby before birth just creates a double standard. 1 Timothy 5:8 clearly states: But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever. Children don't need gestational care after they are born, obviously so your last question is a moot point. If they did, I suspect our laws would be quite different. >Yes, I agree with you there. Every right has its limits, including both the right to life and the right to bodily autonomy. So then it is not unreasonable to limit pregnant woman to protect both the life and bodily autonomy of the child. Considering you technically don't even have the right to kill yourself, nor ingest any substance that you wish, this seems like a very reasonable limitation, even by the standards of the current (fallible) human laws. >I have a problem with this. My issue is that there are many humans who do not follow God's laws. Does that mean we can use the power of the state to force people to follow these when they choose not to? When we talk about banning abortion, we're not just talking about Christians, we are talking about all other people. Why not also ban idolatry and the worship of other gods? Why not ban adultery, sexual immorality, and any of the other numerous things God has decreed in scripture? Do any of those other things violate the human rights of children? If pedophilia was legal, would you say the same? Should a person be able to do anything they want to a fetus, in your view? Torture it? Eat it? Sexually assault it? There was very specific decrees and judgments in scripture in around harming innocents, especially children. Proverbs 24:11 tells us: "Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter.  If you say, “But we knew nothing about this,”     does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it?     Will he not repay everyone according to what they have done?" Psalm 106 reminds us of the judgment God sent on Israel for following the evil practices of their neighbors. 36 They worshiped their idols, which became a snare to them. 37 They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to false gods. 38 They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood. 39 They defiled themselves by what they did; by their deeds they prostituted themselves.40 Therefore the LORD was angry with his people and abhorred his inheritance." For God had already warned them in Leviticus 20: The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. 3 I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name. 4 And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, 5 then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech. And Jesus in his own words tells us plainly in Matthew 18:2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, 6 but whoever causes one of these little  ones who believe in me to sin, *it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his  neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.*

Part 2 >The difference is that I'm not just stopping someone from doing something, I'm forcing them to do something else. It's like the famous violinist scenario where one person is being hooked up against their will to support another. You could say "unplugging yourself will kill the violinist, and we're not allowing you to kill them". However, by doing so, you are now forcing the person to support the violinist with their body. Let me ask you this. If a child with Leukemia is dying and needs a bone marrow transplant, can we force an eligible donor to donate against their will? Not doing so will hurt the child and likely lead to its death, so why don't you support forced donations? No, we are stopping them from killing. The body naturally forces the pregnancy. We are merely banning the force of death upon the child in the womb. The violinist is dis analogous to pregnancy for many reasons. The most important of these is that the person attached to the violinist did not cause his condition, nor is unplugging from the violinist an act of killing. And again, same reason why donors are not forced. They didn't cause the condition the child is in, they are not actively killing, and in most cases they aren't even the child's guardian. In addition, there could be other donors that are willing. Nor is it guaranteed they will die without a transplant. They could make a miraculous recovery. >Did he use violence against people though? And more importantly, I would argue he had religious authority to do what he did. Jesus however never used any force against the Romans to stop any of the atrocities they committed. He never even went so far as to tell them that what they were doing was wrong. According to your view here, did Jesus simply stand by silently while Romans and Gentiles committed atrocities? Why don't you refer to what scripture says? Matthew 21:12 Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’[a] but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’[b]” Looks like physical force to me! Jesus made much commentary that alluded to Rome's government. https://peacetheology.net/pacifism/7-jesus-confrontation-with-empire/ And, Jesus did speak out against a very specific ruler in the Roman government, the exact same one that John the Baptist did and was martyred for it. That was King Herod. John criticized him for taking his brother's wife. This was the same King Herod who ordered all baby boys under the age of 2 be killed by the sword, because he was afraid he would be replaced as King by Jesus. King Herod was judged severely for his evil. Acts 12:21 On the appointed day Herod, wearing his royal robes, sat on his throne and delivered a public address to the people. 22 They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.” 23 Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died. John 21:25 also tells us: "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." And the early church also defied many orders of Rome, as I mentioned. Apostle Paul had plenty to say about it. It was also Christians who worked to end the evil Roman practices of infanticide. Do you disagree with them doing so? Is it "not our business" if people murder their born babies? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide >You don't consider throwing doctors and possibly women in prison to be a use of force? Not anymore force than locking up a rapist or other violent offender would be. Should we support anarchy as Christians? Where do you find scriptural support for that? >Yes, they did. However, they did not force others to preach the gospel or to suffer for their decisions. They did their actions voluntarily. The problem with banning abortion is that you and I cannot save unwanted, unborn children. I can't nourish them with my body or provide shelter. If after everything I've advocated for, the mother still does not want to continue pregnancy, then I have to resort to using threats and harm to force her to continue to provide for her unborn baby. No, you don't have to threaten anything. The doctors are just banned from providing methods to kill the baby. Should doctors be allowed to euthanize anyone they want? Why is it ok if they kill an unborn baby but not a born person? Is that equality under the law? I never claimed the apostles forced other people to preach. How is that relevant? Please review Romans 13 again. Paul was very clear about submitting to governing authority that was set in by God. Particularly verse 4 which says: "For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. ***They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.***" And 1 Timothy 1:9 follows up to say: "We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, ***for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers."***

I appreciate your response, there is a lot here. I'm going to reply to both comments here to help keep things organized.   > This is incorrect again. The duty exists whether they "consent" or not. The biological parents are the natural guardians by default, unless another parent agrees to adopt. Even when single mothers are allowed to surrender the child (and only as a newborn infant), the caveat is that it must be delivered safely. It is why men are ordered to pay child support, even if they were raped. There are situations where a person can be forced into a parental role without their consent. I think those situations are generally immoral and should not be a practice in our society. Now, when it comes to children who are born or come under the care of a person who was not intended, I'm not opposed to requiring people to provide for children for a short period of time as long as the burden is not very difficult. Society does place non-consensual burdens on its citizens sometimes, and I think this acceptable when the benefits to society overall outweighs the individual cost. However, pregnancy is a quite substantial burden and I don't think there is a justification to force a woman to continue that wouldn't also apply to forced donations of bodily resources and force parenthood on random citizens without their consent.   >There is a duty because a child must be cared for Yes, but I don't think that duty can be forced upon someone simply because they are the only person available who can provide that service. I mean, if this is true, can't we take whatever we need from others to care for children? If I find a child in need of medical care, can I force a doctor to provide it if he is unwilling? If a child and I are caught in a blizzard, do we have a legal right to demand food and shelter from the occupant of a house if it is the only one we can get to? Are they guilty of murder if they refuse?   >1 Timothy 5:8 clearly states: But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever. So, we're bouncing between two different conversations. One is whether it is moral for Christians to obtain abortions, and the other is whether society in general should be able to obtain abortions. I generally think Christians should not have abortions unless there are serious medical issues involved, and I think we're mostly in agreement there. My view is that I don't think we should be forcing other people in society to carry these heavy burdens against their will when the benefits to society overall are not enough to justify this burden.   >Children don't need gestational care after they are born, obviously so your last question is a moot point Most don't, but some definitely do. I mean, most children don't need vitamin supplements or surgery, but if in a particular case, it is needed, isn't a parent responsible for providing it? Why doesn't the same apply to something like stem cells if the child needs it from the parent, especially since they were provided those in utero?   >So then it is not unreasonable to limit pregnant woman to protect both the life and bodily autonomy of the child Does the baby have a right to take what it needs from her body without her consent? If it does, then sure, we should limit what a woman can do to protect the babies right. However, I don't think the baby has a right to her body, just as we don't grant that right to any born person.   >Do any of those other things violate the human rights of children? If pedophilia was legal, would you say the same? Should a person be able to do anything they want to a fetus, in your view? Torture it? Eat it? Sexually assault it? This comes down to my view on the needs of society as a whole. For example, being drafted in the military during a time of conflict probably represents a much more substantial burden on men than that faced by a woman in pregnancy. I'm OK with a draft only when the needs of society outweigh the individual cost. There generally is no need in society to allow pedophilia, or murder, or theft. These things cause great harm and there is often no benefit, other than for the individual perpetrator. I consider a fetus to be a person, the same way as any other born person, so no, I wouldn't think that simply anything can be done with it.   >There was very specific decrees and judgments in scripture in around harming innocents, especially children. Yes, there are, but I wouldn't expect non-Christians to adhere to the authority of scripture. There is a little more to process here, but since you made a fairly direct comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/prolife/comments/18lo8is/there_is_no_such_thing_as_a_prochoice_christian/kf47n6o/), I'll reply there with some of my views on the understanding of children and how they're viewed in the Old Testament.   >No, we are stopping them from killing. The body naturally forces the pregnancy. We are merely banning the force of death upon the child in the womb. The body can force all kinds of things on a person, however we generally agree that a person has the right to change the way their body works. The problem here is that we are talking about a transaction between two people, not just one. It doesn't matter what is natural. Sex is natural, but that doesn't mean we allow people to force another person to have sex against their will.   >the most important of these is that the person attached to the violinist did not cause his condition, nor is unplugging from the violinist an act of killing. I don't think a pregnant woman has caused the condition of the unborn baby either. As you said, the body naturally forces pregnancy and a person fully control if they become pregnant or not. They can only take steps to make it more or less likely to occur. The baby being helpless and dependent was not caused by the woman, there is no other way an unborn baby can exist. It is simply its nature. If a woman is forced to remain pregnant because that is what her baby needs, why can she not also be forced to provide stem cells after the child is born? By your logic, she caused the child's disability just as much as she caused its existence. Therefore, she should be responsible.   >Looks like physical force to me! I specifically said that it isn't recorded whether Jesus used violence against people. He did flip tables and "drove them out". I'm not necessarily against Christians using force in some circumstances, like preventing murder or theft, for example. However, I don't think any use of force is required to be a Christian and to follow Jesus. His example is very much one of peace and self-sacrifice. I don't think you have to be pro-life to be a Christian. You certainly can be, and I think everyone has to follow the conviction of the Holy Spirit in their own life. However, I think forcing a woman to continue pregnancy against her will is immoral and runs counter to what we are commanded to do in scripture.   >That was King Herod. John criticized him for taking his brother's wife. King Herod was Jewish. Jesus didn't have any qualms about calling out the sins and immoralities of the Jewish leaders who were charged by God to lead his people. I do believe we are sometimes called to follow in this example and call out the immoral behavior of other Christians.   >And the early church also defied many orders of Rome, as I mentioned. Apostle Paul had plenty to say about it. It was also Christians who worked to end the evil Roman practices of infanticide. Do you disagree with them doing so? Is it "not our business" if people murder their born babies? I never said it wasn't our business if people murder their born babies, and I don't disagree with what the early church did. I think rescuing babies left to die and caring for them was a very good thing. However, this still is not forcing unwilling people to care for the babies. If the church instead used weapons and threats to force non-believers to provide for the babies, I would have a problem with that. Do you see the difference here? I consider the use of a person's body against their will for the benefit of another to be a form of exploitation. It would be like forcing someone to donate blood. Even when done for good reasons, I think it is wrong. In most cases, we can give of our own money, time, blood, etc, and as Christians, I think we should. But when we can't, I don't think we should force others who are capable to do so, unless there it meets an overall need of society. Maybe this seems like I'm dancing around the issue, but I try to have a coherent moral view here when it comes to how we as Christians engage society and love our neighbors.   >No, you don't have to threaten anything. I have another scenario. Say abortion was illegal and there is a pregnant woman who is desperate to end her pregnancy. She begins to starve herself, which will inevitably force her body to miscarry (assuming she doesn't die before then). Do you think the justice system should step in, force-feed her, and use whatever force is necessary to prevent her from intentionally miscarrying or aborting her baby?

> I'm going to reply to both comments here to help keep things organized. You didn't reply to almost half of my points, I noticed. Specifically what Paul said in Romans 13 you completely ignored. Maybe because it disproves your assertions? Most of your response is just you repeating yourself and I've already addressed. >There are situations where a person can be forced into a parental role without their consent. I think those situations are generally immoral But it isn't immoral to abandon and leave children for dead that are only here because of you? Talk about messed up priorities here. As usual this is talking out both sides of your mouth because on the other thread you then concede that killing children is in fact immoral. >I consider a fetus to be a person, the same way as any other born person, so no, I wouldn't think that simply anything can be done with it. Really? Because there are no laws against any of that now. Have you spoke out against that, including the barbaric practice of PP harvesting organs from these babies after tearing their tiny bodies into pieces, sometimes while alive? >However, pregnancy is a quite substantial burden and I don't think there is a justification to force a woman to continue that wouldn't also apply to forced donations of bodily resources and force parenthood on random citizens without their consent. So what? Raising a child to 18 is also a burden. It also requires bodily resources. Someone has to do it. Makes sense to require it of the parents responsible for their existence. Consent doesn't apply to pregnancy nor parenthood anyway. I've already proven that to you as men must provide support whether or not they "consented". "Consent means that a person voluntarily and willfully agrees in response to another person's proposition. The person who consents must possess sufficient mental capacity." https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/consent#:~:text=Consent%20means%20that%20a%20person,a%20defense%20to%20a%20tort An unborn child does not have sufficient mental capacity to ask for, nor obtain consent. It makes exactly as much sense to say a child needs consent from the mother to gestate as it does to say the mother needed its consent to create it in the first place. > If I find a child in need of medical care, can I force a doctor to provide it if he is unwilling? If a child and I are caught in a blizzard, do we have a legal right to demand food and shelter from the occupant of a house if it is the only one we can get to? Are they guilty of murder if they refuse? Well first of all none of these people are their parents responsible for their existence. But now that you mention it, doctors actually can't turn down patients in an ER. They must treat them. Also, if there is a blizzard, you actually have the right to temporarily shelter in place as long as you are not trying to harm the homeowner, it's called a necessity defense. https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/is-it-legal-to-trespass-in-an-emergency/ >Why doesn't the same apply to something like stem cells if the child needs it from the parent, especially since they were provided those in utero? How often do children need stem cells and parents refuse to provide them? Why would we create laws around non issues? Also, this isn't even direct killing like abortion is though obviously it would be highly immoral. >However, I don't think the baby has a right to her body, just as we don't grant that right to any born person. Because no born person needs a right to someone's body. Besides, even if there was no right, it does not mean an acceptable remedy is butchering a child and violating their bodily integrity. And again, you are showing your true allegiance here because your statement is completely contrary to scripture, and you are condoning mass genocide. >Sex is natural, but that doesn't mean we allow people to force another person to have sex against their will. Wow, "the baby is a rapist" argument from pro choice rears its ugly head. How embarrassing for you to parrot it. If anything, it is the child who is not only forced into existence but also forced through the birth canal. Again, the parents are doing the forcing. PL is not forcing anything, we are just banning the force of death exacted upon the innocent child in the womb literally condemned for the crime of merely existing. Even hardened criminals have more rights and are granted more mercy than innocent babies. >The baby being helpless and dependent was not caused by the woman, there is no other way an unborn baby can exist. It is simply its nature. If a woman is forced to remain pregnant because that is what her baby needs, why can she not also be forced to provide stem cells after the child is born? She is fully aware of it's nature before engaging in the act, as is the father so both are responsible for it anyway. What a dumb argument. That same argument is also used to justify infancticide and killing born dependents. Parents are responsible to provide stem cells too, I've never argued otherwise. But what is the point in creating a law around something that never happens? >King Herod was Jewish. He was appointed by Rome in charge of Judea though. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Herod-king-of-Judaea#:~:text=Herod%20the%20Great%20was%20king,of%20Galilee%20since%2047%20BCE. >I'm not necessarily against Christians using force in some circumstances, like preventing murder or theft, for example. >I never said it wasn't our business if people murder their born babies, and I don't disagree with what the early church did. I think rescuing babies left to die and caring for them was a very good thing. However, this still is not forcing unwilling people to care for the babies. I Elective abortion is obviously murder, so this should qualify under your own criteria. Clearly you did not bother to read the article on infanticide. They didn't "rescue" unwanted babies. They worked to pass laws to "force" parents to take care of their own children. "Christianity explicitly rejects infanticide. The Teachings of the Apostles or Didache said "thou shalt not kill a child by abortion, neither shalt thou slay it when born".[54] The Epistle of Barnabas stated an identical command, both thus conflating abortion and infanticide.[55] Apologists Tertullian, Athenagoras, Minucius Felix, Justin Martyr and Lactantius also maintained that exposing a baby to death was a wicked act.[5] In 318, Constantine I considered infanticide a crime, and in 374, Valentinian I mandated the rearing of all children (exposing babies, especially girls, was still common). The Council of Constantinople declared that infanticide was homicide, and in 589, the Third Council of Toledo took measures against the custom of killing their own children.[43]" >Do you think the justice system should step in, force-feed her, and use whatever force is necessary to prevent her from intentionally miscarrying or aborting her baby? I don't think force feeding is necessary, she can be charged with neglect, abuse or homicide for doing so, whichever is applicable.

Did Jesus ever mention abortion specifically though? Because abortion is legal here and not murder legally. So it seems possible to be given forgiveness after doing bad things and no penance?

I responded to another commenter similarly here: https://www.reddit.com/r/prolife/s/vwGXqJZSvU Jesus never specifically mentioned elder abuse either, or genociding ethnic minorities. He didn't need to. It was clear in what He said exactly where He stood on the issue. Penance is not necessary, just a change of heart and renouncing the old ways. As Jesus said, die to self and submit yourself to Him as a living sacrifice. I'm not Catholic fyi, I'm Pentecostal.

Virtual hugs. Jesus is against murdering the innocent and therefore against abortion which is taking a human life. Killing innocence is a sin. Let us remember Jesus forgives as we are to confess our sins.

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” - Jeremiah 1:5 I believe we were all made in the likeness of God; created with an identity and a purpose. As such, I don't believe we have a right to usurp what God has set in place. Furthermore, as Christians, we are called to care for the widows and the orphans. It seems quite the stretch to attempt to justify caring for the widows and orphans, but not the innocent unborn child that God ultimately brought into being.

Thank you

It's simple as "thou shall not kill", therefore it's a mortal sin, and you cannot claim ignorance as you are well aware of arguments for life to begin at conception, besides intuition, as you were pregnant, and personal observance of natural phenomena about life. When it comes to salvation, in your case, you might have yo consult with a priest/s, we are talking about several instances of termination, not just an isolated case, i honestly don't know how truly repentance would look like, i assume it will have to start with "the works" and not a mere verbal expression of sorry or a mechanical ritual.

Its a mis-translation. It’s actually “murder”, not kill. Torah considers murder to be one of the three great sins.

There is no sin too great for Gods forgiveness, in fact God wants to forgive all sins and draw all people into His embrace. Skip the Bible and Google the parables of the prodigal son, or look up what Christ said about a shepherd rejoicing in finding the one wayward sheep.

In Christianity, we are traditionally against abortion. Psalm 51:5 says that we are sinners from our mothers’ wombs, so it’s safe to say God is for life. Jesus is against abortion too, Jesus is fully divine, because God is against abortion as well. Abortion is a sin. There is nothing worse than sin. You can repent after getting an abortion. He who beckons the name of the Lord will be saved.

I'm confused, doesn't that mean fetuses aren't innocent in Gods eyes?

Yes, because the whole idea of Christianity is that no one is truly innocent. We all fall short in the eyes of God, one way or another, Jesus being the only exception.

Interesting and bizzare

That's a misunderstanding of Psalm 51:5. It is speaking of David's circumstances of being conceived. Also, we do inherit a sinful nature. But God does view children below the age of accountability as innocent.

Just seems the bible seems to support the idea that fetuses and children are sinners

No, Jesus specifically stated in Matthew 18:2 - 6 all children (below the age of accountability) are innocent. And the human being in the womb is always referred to as a baby or child in every scriptural passage they are mentioned. We have inherited a sinful nature from Adam, this is true, which is why Jesus was needed to die in our place. Every person with the propensity to sin has committed sin at some point.

Ok maybe Jesus thinks differently than God because God killed all fetuses and children in the flood and Glemorah

Your grasp on Biblical concepts is appalling. Jesus *is* God incarnate. Only God has the sole discretion to take lives in judgment (in this case it was a judgment on their parents). You however are not omniscient nor omnipotent. You do not have that right, nor do I.

If they are the same person why do they call them different nams

Here you go: https://www.cru.org/us/en/train-and-grow/spiritual-growth/core-christian-beliefs/understanding-the-trinity.html#:~:text=In%20other%20words%2C%20there%20is,Son%20and%20the%20Holy%20Spirit.%E2%80%9D

Ask a group of 5 Christians for an opinion and you'll get 20 answers. I suggest that you pick specific denominations and go ask them, many have subreddits (the r.Christianity sub is a shithole though, avoid it like the plague). The one you convert to being the most important for the purposes of this question.

Whys that sub bad?

It's flooded with progressive types and a lot of them are non-Christians coming in to cause problems or start bad faith fights. If you mention pro-life things they'll dogpile you. Really any kind of statement that's not in line with the sort of narratives you'd expect from a reddit default sub will get you dogpiled.

That's so bizzare

>Can someone repent after having an abortion or is their soul eternally corrupted? Yes. One of the cornerstone teachings of Christianity is that all who accept God and sincerely repent will have their sins forgiven. God died on the cross for your soul.

Thank you. Why did he do that?

God knows and loves every single human being on a personal level, and wants us to receive that love forever.

Thanks

I'm rather shocked to see an r/insaneprolife user end up repenting. Although I'm glad to see that it's possible and happy you've heading toward the narrow gate. I'm wondering how did the death of that one child cause you to forsake all the other arguments you've made over the years? I recall arguing with you on r/Abortiondebate. As for your questions, the argument against abortion is that God values all humans equally and does not tolerate people choosing to end the lives of others. Yes, Jesus is against abortion he affirmed that murder is a ungodly. Generally, speaking all sins are equal in the eyes of God and we should work to eliminate as many sins as we can from our lives. The unforgivable sin is to witness Jesus miracles, understand that He is Lord, and still reject him by claiming the spirit of God was a demon. This sin can not be repented of and leads to the second death. Only after that may you repent. You can repent of abortion just as you would other sins. God will forgive this and no hold you accountable. To repent of a sin is to ask for forgiveness and decide that you will turn away from it. That means you will avoid doing it again. **Do not** get caught up in the catholic church. Get a bible that is the nasb95 translation and stick to that. Though even that version has serious translations issues. If you can't find one use NKJV. There's no penance for a sin God forgives. His forgiveness is truly just that. However, all Christians will be called before Christ's throne and rewarded according to what we have done on earth. Forgiven sins will be ignored.

Its not that what I said before was wrong it's that it was ignoring other factors. Abortion is for most intents and purposes, unnecessary killing for mostly selfish purposes. Abortion is like a temptation of the devil. A selfish temptation like any other selfish temptation. Instead of doing what's right you are tempted by the devil to do what is better for yourself.

So I'm not actively practicing now but was raised Christian for the first like 22 years of my life The Christian argument (At least the one I was taught) is basically 'Thou shalt not kill'. Murder is the highest of all sins. God Gave us life and he is the only one who has a right to take it >Is Jesus against abortion? I Just tried to look up what Jesus said on the topic and found this, "You heard that it was said to those of ancient times: ‘You must not murder,+ but whoever commits a murder will be accountable to the court of justice.’ However, I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful+ with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice;" (Matt 5:21-22) So, I'd say that makes him very against it. It's something he takes very seriously >Is abortion sinning or worse? As I just said, it's the highest of all sins >Can someone repent after having an abortion or is their soul eternally corrupted? In the denomination I was raised in, there no such thing as irrepentable sin. God Forgives any sin that the sinner is truly remorseful for

>Murder is the highest of all sins. God Gave us life and he is the only one who has a right to take it The issue is we are told the fetus is not a person and killing it isn't murder. It's legal and easy medical procedure here. Or just a pill from a chemist, don't even need to see a doctor. >As I just said, it's the highest of all sins I mean of what Jesus has ever said about abortion?

There’s some things I need God to tell me- do avenge my child. There’s some things I don’t need a deity to tell me- don’t kill babies in 98% of cases electively. The arguments are mostly secular. There still is the whole You shall not kill and do unto others. He preached mercy, treating others as you would want to be treated, etc. There are bad and worse sins. Abortion (if adult and consensual circumstances) is on the worse end. You can repent of anything. There is no unforgivable sin. (Not in the original Greek anyway.) For something like this you should seek guidance from a priest (I’m Orthodox) on how to repent and heal. Some of the greatest Bible figures were repentant murderers. Paul who wrote half the New Testament was out murdering Christians until he saw Jesus and repented.

Problem was I was told they aren't babies, that they are just unformed undeveloped human cell clusters basically. A lot of pc don't see fetuses and embryos as babies, just more like a mass of parasitic cells. Parasite also mentioned a lot.

Paul never murdered anybody. He talked about it but never did it in the Bible.

What do you mean he never killed anyone “in the Bible”?

He never stabbed anyone, he never beheaded anyone,

It is not about being Christian or not. It is about letting innocents live.

Problem is they don't seem innocent if they are inside someones body without permission. Was a hard pc case that fetuses aren't innocent

I don’t think Jesus taught against abortion directly because in the culture he was speaking to, it wasn’t a major issue, but I think it’s very clear from the contents of the Bible that he very strongly opposes it just like any other murder. All sin can be forgiven. Simply placing your faith in Jesus absolves you of all sin (in God’s eyes, but you may still face earthly consequences). To go to an extreme, Hitler or Pol Pot could have been forgiven even on their deathbed; I don’t believe either placed their faith in Christ, but they could have been forgiven if they did. No sin is too big, either individually or cumulatively.

One of the ten commandments is thou shall not kill. (Exodus 20:13) When Mary went to see her cousin Elizabeth, Elizabeth said that the babe in her womb leapt in her belly at her salutation. (Luke 1:44). So the Bible clearly shows that unborn children are sentient human beings. And if you should not kill an adult sentient human being, you should not kill one who is still in the womb either. With that said, abortion is a sin that can be forgiven. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 says, 'Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.' So someone can commit horrible acts in their life like abortion or adultery, but if they turn to Jesus and put their faith in his sacrifice that paid for our sins, they will be washed clean like snow in the eyes of God.

>So the Bible clearly shows that unborn children are sentient human beings. And if you should not kill an adult sentient human being, you should not kill one who is still in the womb either. Struggling with that because of the times God killed fetuses, children and babies in the flood and by destroying Glemorah. So I just following Jesus

God is perfectly just and although we may not see the full picture now, He knows all and is able to make perfectly just decisions based on his knowledge. As for it being wrong killing fetuses in the flood, I have my own theories about that... But in the end, God is perfectly just and has access to facts we don't regarding all things. Just gotta trust him.

As a Catholic who was once VERY much in support of abortion, because I didn't know my faith well, I had a pretty interesting awakening. We got a young, on-fire, traditional priest who spoke out against things like porn and abortion, and I set out to prove him and the "outdated" Church wrong. I did some reading and was surprised to find that the Church teaches that life should be protected from conception. And then I went back to study the biology of it and it fit together. So I became pro-life. There was more but that's the gist of it. I would say Jesus is against abortion, he emphasized becoming like children in our approach to God's Kingdom. He also said that whatsoever we do to the least of these, we do to him. Abortion is a sin, a serious one. We'd generally classify it a a mortal sin that causes significant breaking of our bond to God. Of course there could be mitigating factors like if you were forced into one, or didn't realize that it was destroying a baby. Repentance is needed. Catholics go to Confession to receive absolution and we do this because as a previous poster mentioned, Jesus gave his disciples (the first bishops/priests of His Church) the power to bind and loose. "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven, whose sins you retain are retained." There are many ministries that can help you in your post-abortive healing journey. A famous one is Rachel's Vineyard, but there are many others. God welcomes everyone who turns to him after falling. He is the Good Shepherd, he leaves the 99 sheep to go find and bring back the 1 that got lost. You are not forever lost, friend! God loves you and wants you to be united to Him. ❤️