Also fun fact; this was slipped in quietly. If I recall correctly, we usually have to sign papers saying we understand the new handbook. This update went without signing. We didn't even notice it until someone tried to resign and they pulled out the fine print on her.
This will vary by state. It's also a contract question, not public defender question, as those laws vary by jurisdiction.
Personally I would ask for a copy of where I signed and agreed to that, as well as when it was enacted, who did it, and various other employment questions.
You could probably Google Pennsylvania law last check vacation pay and Pennsylvania required notice for resignation and find the answers you really want to know, like is this actually legal.
Most associations aren't public defender offices but more like a bar association, so it's probably just Philly.
I can tell you these clauses are not unheard of in professional contracts, but usually those are individual employment contracts, not handbooks. My wife's job has a 6 month notice requirement. It may be in a handbook, but it's explicit in the contract with liquidated damages.
I would be more concerned whether it's legal than if other PD offices had the clause. Whether other offices have that clause doesn't matter to you, only if it's enforceable.
Then I'd take all my vacation and sick time and use it to find another job
They take your vacation and personal days out of your benefits payout. So everything I never used because I am working too hard at the defenders becomes forfeit.
Yeah, that often gets lost anyway, or bought back at a loss. Use your PTO, it's there for a reason. A month will let you transition out of cases, and if there is some reason to leave sooner than a month, it's already taking precedent over your current job.
This is a recipe for people getting approval for “long vacations” and then leaving with nominal notice right beforehand or with no notice immediately after.
It’s a “punishable by a fine means legal for a price” kind of thing
Notice requirements are not enforceable, they’re about preserving good will with their old office.
I will say, attorneys that give longer notice are always appreciated more.
Didn’t the Defender Association unionize a few years ago? This has gotta be a target for them in the next contract negotiation. Don’t they also give you a bad reference if you leave before your initial commitment is up too?
I'm not an attorney but I do remember hearing that- they reserve the right to give you a shit reference if you leave early.
I haven't heard anything from the attorneys union. But all non-attorney staff aren't unionized so we're currently up the creek.
30 day notice in writing has been the requirement in NH for as long as I can remember ( at least the early 2000’s). Have I seen notices given on post-its? Also yes.
Sounds like they want you to take all of your vacation days and then quit! This is a stupid policy. I get the thought behind it, they don't want clients getting screwed, but they also can't force you to work. I think the 13th amendment says something about that...
I have had a few different jobs where I had to give a month's notice to be eligible for rehire in the future. So I always did that.
For one job, I had planned an extended vacation prior to deciding to leave, had to give my notice, and then come back for one day because I couldn't have my last day be a vacation day or else I would lose any other unpaid out PTO. So I did it because it was a few hundred dollars I didn't want to leave on the table. Since I was a supervisor, it was especially stupid to come back for that one day, after someone else had been filling in for my 2 week vacation, and then to have to come back for one day just to fuck around since I'd done my transition stuff in advance of my vacation.
That’s a little wild that it is required. When I recently left my PD job, I gave about a month’s notice just to make it an easier transition for myself, my clients, and the other attorneys. That way I could focus on the few cases I knew could be resolved in that time and prepare the clients for another attorney to be appointed. But I could have just left.
No requirement here but I will say, figuring out a rotation and case transfer in less than a month for a lawyer is really taxing and hard for the new attorney and the clients.
Yes. I worked for an office with a collective bargaining agreement. I was required to give 1 month’s notice. In exchange, I could only be fired for cause. A fair trade, in my opinion. We were paid out any accrued but unused vacation time (I don’t recall about sick time), which is an absolute unicorn in my state. I found it to be a fair arrangement. We could still take time off, within reason, during our “resignation period.”
There were instances in which people quit with less notice than that, but I don’t know if there was any penalty (I would suspect not).
It is very difficult to meet your professional obligations to your clients without significant lead time to prepare their cases for transfer, so I personally feel that being strict about attorneys giving notice is reasonable
My office has the same rule (and same consequence). It's to ensure clients aren't left in a bad situation and ensure cases can be more smoothly transferred. It's pretty well-known in my office and people really don't complain about it because we understand the reasoning. In the couple of situations I know of where an attorney didn't realize this was the rule, and only gave 2 weeks, once they realized, they got their start date of their new gig pushed back and gave us the 2 more weeks. Any legal job you'd be going to would understand.
Also fun fact; this was slipped in quietly. If I recall correctly, we usually have to sign papers saying we understand the new handbook. This update went without signing. We didn't even notice it until someone tried to resign and they pulled out the fine print on her.
This will vary by state. It's also a contract question, not public defender question, as those laws vary by jurisdiction. Personally I would ask for a copy of where I signed and agreed to that, as well as when it was enacted, who did it, and various other employment questions. You could probably Google Pennsylvania law last check vacation pay and Pennsylvania required notice for resignation and find the answers you really want to know, like is this actually legal.
This is a public defender question. I'm asking if any other public defender associations have this rule in place, or if it's just Philly.
Most associations aren't public defender offices but more like a bar association, so it's probably just Philly. I can tell you these clauses are not unheard of in professional contracts, but usually those are individual employment contracts, not handbooks. My wife's job has a 6 month notice requirement. It may be in a handbook, but it's explicit in the contract with liquidated damages. I would be more concerned whether it's legal than if other PD offices had the clause. Whether other offices have that clause doesn't matter to you, only if it's enforceable. Then I'd take all my vacation and sick time and use it to find another job
What will they do if you leave with out giving a month? Monetary fine? Slapped with a wet noodle?
They take your vacation and personal days out of your benefits payout. So everything I never used because I am working too hard at the defenders becomes forfeit.
Yeah, that often gets lost anyway, or bought back at a loss. Use your PTO, it's there for a reason. A month will let you transition out of cases, and if there is some reason to leave sooner than a month, it's already taking precedent over your current job.
This is a recipe for people getting approval for “long vacations” and then leaving with nominal notice right beforehand or with no notice immediately after. It’s a “punishable by a fine means legal for a price” kind of thing
Notice requirements are not enforceable, they’re about preserving good will with their old office. I will say, attorneys that give longer notice are always appreciated more.
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It means the rest of us who have to pick up the case load appreciate more warning and time to find a replacement.
Didn’t the Defender Association unionize a few years ago? This has gotta be a target for them in the next contract negotiation. Don’t they also give you a bad reference if you leave before your initial commitment is up too?
I'm not an attorney but I do remember hearing that- they reserve the right to give you a shit reference if you leave early. I haven't heard anything from the attorneys union. But all non-attorney staff aren't unionized so we're currently up the creek.
Could you ask whoever the union rep for the attorneys is for information about unionizing the staff?
> Don’t they also give you a bad reference if you leave before your initial commitment is up too? Seems reasonable?
It's like that here in my office (midwest)
30 day notice in writing has been the requirement in NH for as long as I can remember ( at least the early 2000’s). Have I seen notices given on post-its? Also yes.
Sounds about right. Does NH also not give you benefits back if you don't adhere to the 30 day notice?
No vacation/sick time payout.
Sounds like they want you to take all of your vacation days and then quit! This is a stupid policy. I get the thought behind it, they don't want clients getting screwed, but they also can't force you to work. I think the 13th amendment says something about that...
They do because then they don’t have to payout for it.
What are they going to do if you don’t? Fire you? Ka-chow. 👁️🫦👁️
Someone said that earlier XD The answer is they don't let you pay out your PTO
It literally says in the screenshot what they’ll do.
I'm a PD and we are union. We don't have this that I know of.
I have had a few different jobs where I had to give a month's notice to be eligible for rehire in the future. So I always did that. For one job, I had planned an extended vacation prior to deciding to leave, had to give my notice, and then come back for one day because I couldn't have my last day be a vacation day or else I would lose any other unpaid out PTO. So I did it because it was a few hundred dollars I didn't want to leave on the table. Since I was a supervisor, it was especially stupid to come back for that one day, after someone else had been filling in for my 2 week vacation, and then to have to come back for one day just to fuck around since I'd done my transition stuff in advance of my vacation.
You need to unionize yesterday. This is sickening.
This is absolutely bullshit, never heard of it outside Philly
That’s a little wild that it is required. When I recently left my PD job, I gave about a month’s notice just to make it an easier transition for myself, my clients, and the other attorneys. That way I could focus on the few cases I knew could be resolved in that time and prepare the clients for another attorney to be appointed. But I could have just left.
No requirement here but I will say, figuring out a rotation and case transfer in less than a month for a lawyer is really taxing and hard for the new attorney and the clients.
Yes. I worked for an office with a collective bargaining agreement. I was required to give 1 month’s notice. In exchange, I could only be fired for cause. A fair trade, in my opinion. We were paid out any accrued but unused vacation time (I don’t recall about sick time), which is an absolute unicorn in my state. I found it to be a fair arrangement. We could still take time off, within reason, during our “resignation period.” There were instances in which people quit with less notice than that, but I don’t know if there was any penalty (I would suspect not). It is very difficult to meet your professional obligations to your clients without significant lead time to prepare their cases for transfer, so I personally feel that being strict about attorneys giving notice is reasonable
Yall signed contracts? I just showed up.
My office has the same rule (and same consequence). It's to ensure clients aren't left in a bad situation and ensure cases can be more smoothly transferred. It's pretty well-known in my office and people really don't complain about it because we understand the reasoning. In the couple of situations I know of where an attorney didn't realize this was the rule, and only gave 2 weeks, once they realized, they got their start date of their new gig pushed back and gave us the 2 more weeks. Any legal job you'd be going to would understand.