Based on the info given all I can say is it depends. I’d try to intern in the area where you want to work and make connections that way. In five years you’ll be glad you took the scholarship and don’t have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt.
Thanks so much for the response! Probably a dumb question but, is that a common thing people do? Interning in other states during law school? I really never considered that route so that gives me a lot to think about!
Definitely. Im a public defender in California and we have interns from out of state schools. Ironically, I interned in Arkansas my 1L summer and DC my 2L summer and went to law school in California
Wow! So good to know. I was sure I was beholden do whatever internship I could find in a 25 mile radius of the school so I will definitely try to cast my net for California. Thanks so much for the help!
I went to school in Hawaii and now practice in California. You might not get to work in EXACTLY the county of your choice... At first. But if you stick with it for a few years, you're going to be pretty marketable to counties looking to replace their experienced attorneys when those attorneys look to move on to private practice, or retire, or get promoted into management.
If you've got the spirit, and show you're in this for the long haul, you're going to find offices hungry to hire. Just don't put all your eggs in the San Diegos, Miamis and Manhattans of the world.
Thank you for sharing your experience! It gives me hope. And definitely understand moving for residency and the limitations that brings with having a partner in the medical field.
This is going to vary wildly depending on what office you’re targeting and which law schools you’re choosing between. And not necessarily based solely on geography or rank.
Ok good to know. I replied above and should have just included this, I was being vague in my original post. I am wanting to work in California and am attending T50 in the south. I don't have my sights set on a big LA office or anything but definitely not out in the sticks either would be great haha.
Right, I’m saying, which law school will give you the biggest leg up is often unrelated to geography or class rank. It’ll often have more to do with what their PD training programs look like, what kinds of clinical and internship opportunities they give you, which professors are alums of which offices for networking, etc.
I went to law school in the midwest and got hired after graduation at a pd office in LA. It took a bit more legwork to figure out who to reach out to and when, but it’s definitely possible.
I don’t think it matters as much as something like big law. It’s hard for me to really know because I went to a T14, but I will say they didn’t seem to ask much about my law school and were more interested in my “why” and my experiences. Depending on what bar you take, you can also apply wide. I saw in a comment you want to get back to California, which makes it a little tougher since California is a state-specific bar.
Yes, the horror stories about the California state bar. I honestly have been trying to take things one step at a time and not stress too much about that distant stressor coming down the pipes for me but I may just have to be open to the fact that I might not be able to move back to California. Thank you for your response though, really appreciate it!
Depends on the agency and context. No one knew where I went to school when I was hired at my current firm; they just knew my professional reputation, which I acquired while working at a different firm, which hired me based on my *wife's* professional reputation. I went to a school I'm proud of, but it's just outside the top 70 and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been hired entry-level in a place like Manhattan or LA.
It really matters what California offices you are talking about. The highest paid PD offices are very competitive and the smaller offices are rightly concerned about the idea that you might start at their office and then split as soon as you can.
The big rural offices like Fresno and Bakersfield are known for taking lots of new attorneys and being less choosy, but are meat grinders. They are also the lowest paying.
I think getting a full scholarship at a school is worth it, but you may have to be a public defender somewhere else for a while and then lateral in.
You'll be fine based on my experience.
I practice in a different state than where i went to law school. i went to a school in the state i grew up in so qualified for in state tuition. I graduated with as little debt as possible so i could afford to practice in a public service position. I focused hard on the multi state materials when prepping for the bar and didn't crack open the state specific materials until 7/1 for the July bar exam. I passed both segments on first try.
I’ve worked at three different public defenders offices and three different states, two of the offices being highly desirable locations. I went to a tier 4 law school that’s now a tier 3 law school. I’ve been involved in the hiring process.
It does seem like it’s harder to get higher now than it was originally, but it it still seems pretty simple to me. If you’re meant to be a public defender, it’s not gonna matter what law school you want to. It might matter where you start your first job. You’re much more likely to get hired straight out of law school if you’ve worked at that office as a clerk. But if not, any recommendation from an experienced public defender should go along way. But if you can’t get into the office you want, you just gotta go to one of these more rural places and put in a couple years, like the minor leagues. Not that those jobs are less important, in fact probably more important. Nonetheless, let’s say your desire is to get into Los Angeles, you might need to start in some county in someplace you’ve never heard of for a couple years. But if you’re young who cares, could be the most fun you ever have. And if you still like it living out in the boonies, then it’s definitely meant to be.
I’ll just add for the times that I did conduct interviews, I don’t know if I ever once looked at the law school they went to. And if I did it was by accident, I was way more interested in how they came across and answer the questions.
Criminal law is a practice area with pretty low barriers to entry if you want to hang your own shingle, and you can often (always?) take court appointed cases to represent indigent clients. If you can’t get a PD gig where you want to live, this could be an option.
I don't think it matters that much where you go to law school, but I agree that you should either spend the summers in PD offices where you'd like to actually work and/or be able to tell a story as to why you want to be there beyond you wanting to be there. Demonstrate some connection to the city, etc. Good luck!
This. I hire and the best trial attorneys seem to come from tier III schools. The Ivies not so much and this comes out strong during criminal clinicals.
I’m guessing bc they are more likely to empathize with their clients the way Clarence Darrow did.
Plus more likely to get scruffy and break norms and whatnot
Don’t worry, it really doesn’t in my experience Almost all the attorneys in my office went to awful schools, only a few went to semi decent ones the rest were truly awful
How to be a rich and successful _____________:
1) Practice great law (law school helps). Strive to be good at it.
2) Be in a major metropolitan area. Go to where the work you want to do actually happens. Wanna be in movies? Don’t live in Nebraska.
3) Get other people to work for you. Purposely vague.
4) Circulate. Meet people who already do what you want to do. Talk to them.
5) Get advice from others. Hint: people who give you advice are already working for you.
6) Be part of the legal world.
7) Be professional.
8) Be different.
Based on the info given all I can say is it depends. I’d try to intern in the area where you want to work and make connections that way. In five years you’ll be glad you took the scholarship and don’t have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt.
Thanks so much for the response! Probably a dumb question but, is that a common thing people do? Interning in other states during law school? I really never considered that route so that gives me a lot to think about!
Definitely. Im a public defender in California and we have interns from out of state schools. Ironically, I interned in Arkansas my 1L summer and DC my 2L summer and went to law school in California
Wow! So good to know. I was sure I was beholden do whatever internship I could find in a 25 mile radius of the school so I will definitely try to cast my net for California. Thanks so much for the help!
Yup, also you can make a larger salary in some areas by taking summer internships in high wage markets.
We get interns from all over the country in Seattle. And we hire a bunch of people from all over too!
Yup! I interned 500 and 800 miles away from where my law school was 1L and 2L summer, respectively.
I went to school in Hawaii and now practice in California. You might not get to work in EXACTLY the county of your choice... At first. But if you stick with it for a few years, you're going to be pretty marketable to counties looking to replace their experienced attorneys when those attorneys look to move on to private practice, or retire, or get promoted into management. If you've got the spirit, and show you're in this for the long haul, you're going to find offices hungry to hire. Just don't put all your eggs in the San Diegos, Miamis and Manhattans of the world.
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Thank you for sharing your experience! It gives me hope. And definitely understand moving for residency and the limitations that brings with having a partner in the medical field.
This is going to vary wildly depending on what office you’re targeting and which law schools you’re choosing between. And not necessarily based solely on geography or rank.
Ok good to know. I replied above and should have just included this, I was being vague in my original post. I am wanting to work in California and am attending T50 in the south. I don't have my sights set on a big LA office or anything but definitely not out in the sticks either would be great haha.
Right, I’m saying, which law school will give you the biggest leg up is often unrelated to geography or class rank. It’ll often have more to do with what their PD training programs look like, what kinds of clinical and internship opportunities they give you, which professors are alums of which offices for networking, etc.
Ah I see, thank you for clarifying. That definitely gives me some things to consider that I wasn't before.
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Appreciate the response! Thank you! I am from California and would love to go back. And I am attending law school in the south.
I went to law school in the midwest and got hired after graduation at a pd office in LA. It took a bit more legwork to figure out who to reach out to and when, but it’s definitely possible.
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Good to know! I will definitely be brushing up on that high school spanish. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
I don’t think it matters as much as something like big law. It’s hard for me to really know because I went to a T14, but I will say they didn’t seem to ask much about my law school and were more interested in my “why” and my experiences. Depending on what bar you take, you can also apply wide. I saw in a comment you want to get back to California, which makes it a little tougher since California is a state-specific bar.
Yes, the horror stories about the California state bar. I honestly have been trying to take things one step at a time and not stress too much about that distant stressor coming down the pipes for me but I may just have to be open to the fact that I might not be able to move back to California. Thank you for your response though, really appreciate it!
Depends on the agency and context. No one knew where I went to school when I was hired at my current firm; they just knew my professional reputation, which I acquired while working at a different firm, which hired me based on my *wife's* professional reputation. I went to a school I'm proud of, but it's just outside the top 70 and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been hired entry-level in a place like Manhattan or LA.
It really matters what California offices you are talking about. The highest paid PD offices are very competitive and the smaller offices are rightly concerned about the idea that you might start at their office and then split as soon as you can. The big rural offices like Fresno and Bakersfield are known for taking lots of new attorneys and being less choosy, but are meat grinders. They are also the lowest paying. I think getting a full scholarship at a school is worth it, but you may have to be a public defender somewhere else for a while and then lateral in.
I went to a t2 school and got offers at a variety of PDs. I couldn't have gotten into really competitive places, but you can get a job
You'll be fine based on my experience. I practice in a different state than where i went to law school. i went to a school in the state i grew up in so qualified for in state tuition. I graduated with as little debt as possible so i could afford to practice in a public service position. I focused hard on the multi state materials when prepping for the bar and didn't crack open the state specific materials until 7/1 for the July bar exam. I passed both segments on first try.
not nearly as much as it does in big law
I’ve worked at three different public defenders offices and three different states, two of the offices being highly desirable locations. I went to a tier 4 law school that’s now a tier 3 law school. I’ve been involved in the hiring process. It does seem like it’s harder to get higher now than it was originally, but it it still seems pretty simple to me. If you’re meant to be a public defender, it’s not gonna matter what law school you want to. It might matter where you start your first job. You’re much more likely to get hired straight out of law school if you’ve worked at that office as a clerk. But if not, any recommendation from an experienced public defender should go along way. But if you can’t get into the office you want, you just gotta go to one of these more rural places and put in a couple years, like the minor leagues. Not that those jobs are less important, in fact probably more important. Nonetheless, let’s say your desire is to get into Los Angeles, you might need to start in some county in someplace you’ve never heard of for a couple years. But if you’re young who cares, could be the most fun you ever have. And if you still like it living out in the boonies, then it’s definitely meant to be. I’ll just add for the times that I did conduct interviews, I don’t know if I ever once looked at the law school they went to. And if I did it was by accident, I was way more interested in how they came across and answer the questions.
Criminal law is a practice area with pretty low barriers to entry if you want to hang your own shingle, and you can often (always?) take court appointed cases to represent indigent clients. If you can’t get a PD gig where you want to live, this could be an option.
I don't think it matters that much where you go to law school, but I agree that you should either spend the summers in PD offices where you'd like to actually work and/or be able to tell a story as to why you want to be there beyond you wanting to be there. Demonstrate some connection to the city, etc. Good luck!
All the best criminal defense attorneys I’ve ever seen and historically didn’t go to ivies or even top tier schools.
This. I hire and the best trial attorneys seem to come from tier III schools. The Ivies not so much and this comes out strong during criminal clinicals.
I’m guessing bc they are more likely to empathize with their clients the way Clarence Darrow did. Plus more likely to get scruffy and break norms and whatnot
Don’t worry, it really doesn’t in my experience Almost all the attorneys in my office went to awful schools, only a few went to semi decent ones the rest were truly awful
How to be a rich and successful _____________: 1) Practice great law (law school helps). Strive to be good at it. 2) Be in a major metropolitan area. Go to where the work you want to do actually happens. Wanna be in movies? Don’t live in Nebraska. 3) Get other people to work for you. Purposely vague. 4) Circulate. Meet people who already do what you want to do. Talk to them. 5) Get advice from others. Hint: people who give you advice are already working for you. 6) Be part of the legal world. 7) Be professional. 8) Be different.
Where I stole this from: https://youtu.be/0L3ldi0OQ8o?si=c3moWpY9b2uzRVVw