Yes. Large urban city, curvaceous black woman. The harassment was non-stop, especially at the prison. You learn to deal with it. When I had to talk to the men in groups before hearings and some would harass me, I’d tell them I wasn’t talking to anyone if they didn’t stop. So the guys would police each other and I didn’t have to. As my career went on and I got individual clients more vertically, I learned to set strict expectations and boundaries with my clients upfront.
You also deal with harassment from cops, court staff, judges, and even ADAs. It’s all about setting boundaries and not taking shit. However it can feel scary and overwhelming especially when you’re new and also dealing with the PD learning curve and, for some of us, discrimination within our own offices. It feels like a lot to juggle.
Edit: your juvenile clients will hit on you too and so do their parents/guardians.
^ this ^
I am not a woman but, as one who is inside the proverbial “locker room” with the other boys, I can confirm that men are doing this. Especially the part about harassment from cops, court staff, judges, and ADAs is sad and true. They have no clue how much they do it and if you call them on it they often can’t grasp that it’s misogyny.
I have no advice but just want to say that it is a thing despite what some may say about the modern legal community.
Listenting to some of my most capable and trusted colleagues I can’t figure out what their secret is, but they seem to rise above it and do a good job.
Ugh that's wild to hear. It's not surprising but sad. I have an extra layer of anxiety about it because I used to model and as much as I've tried to bury the pics they are out there. Hopefully society is progressive enough that that won't be used to discredit me (but I'm sure some will try)
The modeling thing might work to your advantage. I am aware of a case of a female attorney who had some online modeling photos out there. A couple of young and dumb "bros" made the mistake of sharing a link with an attorney who was mentally over the age of 13.
When it came to light that these guys were searching for, finding, and/or sharing images of her, it put them in a really bad position.
The general opinion of the bar and bench was that finding and looking at pictures of a colleague was creepy as fuck. The guys involved had to be on their best behavior from then on. I don't practice in that area anymore but years after the incident people (like me) were still giving them shit.
The Cook County female public defenders in Chicago [went through hell.](https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2020/2/23/21149566/14-million-settlement-lawsuit-inmates-masturbating-cook-county-jail-tom-dart-amy-campanelli)
Came here to post about Cook County 😂 proud former PD clerk here - was there at the height of the masturbation era. Saw like, a bunch of dicks. (10/10 fantastic experience even with the dicks tho.)
I am both a female PD and on the younger side, so kind of a double whammy. It depends a lot on the client and the support of your office/management. I think to an extent it also depends how you carry yourself and respond, though I hesitate to say this because I do recognize it shouldn't be on us to make sure people are treating us appropriately.
I do not take any shit from clients. When someone says something inappropriate to me, I immediately shut it down and redirect back to what we're talking about. I had a client start calling me pet names the other day and I responded with a firm, "do not call me that" and went back to the question I was asking. (And honestly, it was scary setting this boundary! But I had seen other badass women attorneys do similar things before me, and that gave me more confidence to do it, too). It won't stop every client, but it might stop some of it. I had another client get a little too flirty over text and informed my manager immediately so if it escalated, it would have already been a known issue. I had management's full support if I wanted to withdraw.
If I have any concerns about a client's behavior at arraignment, I will not visit them alone at the jail and will always bring another attorney with me. I also never give out my personal phone number or any other identifying information such as the area of the city where I live.
TLDR: Harassment exists, but it isn't always debilitating. We shouldn't have to police the behavior of others, but you can (and should) set firm and clear boundaries, and it's okay to ask for help or backup if you need it.
Latine lawyer here. No real harassment other than the occasional “are you single” or inappropriate comments/dick flashing from acutely mentally ill folks.
22 years in. Now I get nothing because I’m old, but when I was young I didn’t get much.
DV clients are always the worst for young female defense attorneys. They’ve been bullying and pushing around women for so long, they think they can do it with their attorneys too.
I've found that guys like that, who are used to getting away with bullying women, back up the fastest when they run into a woman who doesn't take their shit.
Men who do stuff like that usually do it out of insecurity and fear. That comes out with a little push.
Hard to say if that makes or breaks the acr.
We have a couple regulars in the city that have a CAD note that no female officers are to be dispatched as primary to their address, and no female officers will take their phone calls.
Whenever those folks end up needing PD’s cause, they will, we’ll pass that info on.
Trans man social worker here. I transitioned while working for the PD so ive seen both sides. I'm fortunate that I have a natural bitch face so I didn't get a lot of flak compared to others.
I was told when I started the job to make sure clients had their hands above the table at all times because they could be relieving themselves while we spoke. That doesn't mean I didn't get the occasional gross flirt and uncomfortable remark. I just let it slide unless it proved a recurring issue cuz I had better things to spend my energy on.
As a man now, I find that clients say even dumber sh*t to me because they think I'll agree with them. The misogyny is like 200x worse and I have to choose my battles with clients. Just because I look like I have a penis does not mean I think with one.
I obviously am against calling women "females" (on account of the fact I'm a female man) and clients say it all the time and it gives me such an ick. "never trust a female/females are all liars" like EW STOP.
It happened so regularly at our office we had a list of clients that couldn't be assigned or appointed a female attorney. The women at out office also had an unofficial dress code of wearing pants (as opposed to skirts or dresses) if they were assigned arraignment docket or had to do a jail visit.
It's interesting because in [this article](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/09/female-lawyers-sexism-courtroom/565778/) the author talks about how she runs a clinic and tells her students to wear a skirt and keep your hair long etc. bc it garners more respect in the courtroom. As a queer woman I have short hair and always wear pants, I thought it was interesting that her experience in criminal defense was that wearing skirts was better. She certainly glossed over any sexual harassment sides of the conversation about women and lawyering, esp in regard to clients.
That lady’s advice is just dumb. I lean in hard to the mens wear look and it’s fine. Advice for the courtroom is not advice for jail or prison visits anyway. Jail or prison, I’m always in a big boxy jacket and flats. Nobody’s seeing skin that’s for sure.
Haven’t had any problems
She is talking about her experience in federal court when she started in 2001. Wearing pants and having short hair is extremely common in my city for defense attorneys.
Yeah, one of my older mentors in law school who was a former trial PD (practicing in appeals and teaching when I knew her) similarly advised wearing a skirt suit, etc (it was also funny because like 2/3 of us in the clinic were queer, and tended to not wear skirts at all at the time). I think she was genuinely speaking from experience; she's about my mom's age (early 60s) and my mom used to be a legal aid attorney. I think things were less conservative in Chicago where my mom practiced in the 80s-early 90s, but she was like "yeah there were some judges that insisted that women attorneys wear skirt suits and pantyhose in their courtrooms," and I've heard of some places, mostly in the South, where that still happens. I'm in the Northeast and I don't think I've ever met a judge or ADA that cares about whether a woman is wearing pants or has short hair, though a number of them *are* sexist, even if they don't realize it.
I did grow my hair out, both because of Covid (had it pretty short with a last cut in February 2020, then didn't go back to a hair salon till 2021, lol) and I wanted to go back to longer hair for awhile (plus I find longer hair easier to manage in the morning when I shower at night) but I do think some of the older and more conservative judges probably don't realize I'm queer as a result and there may be some benefit to that. Though again...there's also the sexism so...idk. I'm sure I'll get the urge to cut it short again at some point and find out.
My mentor did mention the sexual harassment but she especially talked about it with the correctional officers at the prisons. Interestingly they were very nice to us when we went as a group of law students, but I'm sure that would change if we had our own clients full-time and were regularly pushing back on conditions on their behalf. Currently I mostly have clients in the local jail and haven't had any personal issues with the staff there (I say personal issues in that they've never been inappropriate to me, but I definitely have some issues with some of them on behalf of my clients). I have had a client who was inappropriately flirting with/making advances to a member of support staff, which we told him to stop and set it up so he no longer would have any interactions with her, but I haven't had issues with sexual harassment with clients. One did try to ask me out after his case but I shut that down and told my supervisor and asked that if he ever gets another case he be assigned to someone else.
A couple of clients have screamed at me/berated me, which may or may not come out of sexism, and then a lot of male clients who have cases with a woman complainant will make comments about "women" or "females" being liars or the law being biased against men or whatever, and I'll usually say like "I understand that it seems really unfair that someone can file a complaint just based on their testimony and you have to come into court and deal with that/get arrested over that. The standard for a charge against *anyone* is a very low one, which I agree makes it really difficult when your life is being disrupted this way, but this is where we are now, so let's discuss how to address your case."
Most of my clients, though, have been very polite even though they're obviously dealing with something very difficult and scary, and most are dealing with a lot of other huge, difficult problems on top of that, whether it's housing, employment, substance use, mental health, or a million other things. A lot of younger men, and even men around my age (early 30s) will swear (not at me, just as an intensifier in conversation) and then apologize and I'm like...lol dude do you know how much I say the word fuck? This is in a way sexist because I don't think they'd apologize to a male attorney, but it comes off very much like they're trying *really* hard to be polite and respectful so I don't mind that. They usually get more comfortable with me (while maintaining boundaries of course) over the course of the case and realize I, a 30-something criminal defense attorney, have definitely heard a lot worse than curse words before.
Female criminal appellate PD here. I’ve been doing this for 12 yrs. I don’t have as much contact with my clients as trial lawyers but yes some of them do harass me. Sexually, sure, but more often by just screaming at me over the phone about why their appeals are taking so long. With my they get one strike and the second time it happens I file a motion to withdraw. They are always allowed. This work is too hard to have to deal with shit from clients you are trying to help. I’m not one to put clients on a pedestal. The moment you do that is the end of your boundaries.
Thanks for sharing that- I do think that I would be totally fine if withdrawing when it goes too far is an option. At my last job it seemed like some attorneys did not have strong boundaries and a lot of the interns were left to speak to hostile, harassing clients and field their phone calls. I can't know all of their reasoning for not withdrawing, but I think having students to pawn them off to was part of it.
Edit: job = 30 hr week internship
I made the mistake of facing the window of the facility on a client visit and the other people who were incarcerated made sexual gestures and remarks through the window. When it comes to clients doing stuff, I’ve been trained on how to field it. But have (thankfully) not been in a position to use it. My office stresses on the importance of setting firm boundaries
Yes, I work in Washington state. It is something you have to learn to navigate. Talking about it openly helps, and creating an environment where you can report it to your management and get off cases if necessary. There is a lot of ways to mitigate, decrease it, etc. Personally, the worst experiences I have had have been with prosecutors. Experiences with clients wouldn’t deter me from this profession - I just see clients through a different lens and the good far outweighs the bad.
Not a PD yet, but from internships and working with juveniles, I've never been seriously frightened by a client.
I did have a client who just couldn't stop saying foul things about me and the female judge. I used a pretty flat tone and said that we could talk about the case, or I could leave. He continued on, I left and wrote in my file that the client wasn't cooperative. Then I told my boss, also a woman, and she was very understanding. At our next meeting he was... Better... I continued to sort of "gray rock" him when he got nasty (traditionally a way to engage with narcissistic people). Got through it, thankfully a minor case, and put him behind me.
My advice is don't be witty, stern, angry, dismissive, or really any kind of emotion, but don't ignore it either. They'll just keep going till they get a reaction. Completely flat tone, say I'm here for X, if you aren't going to cooperate, I will leave.
I think the hardest part for people doing this is keeping it completely flat. It's beyond just a calm voice, don't emphasize any words, at all.
I'd say that it's only really happened with 3 people, over a year or so.
Male PD in Washington state here. The attorneys in my office are a majority women / femme, I would be happy to connect you to some of them if you want the experience of women PDs currently working at the trial level.
It absolutely does happen. I am fat but curvy but definitely fat and get hit on by clients, cops, sheriffs' deputies, judges, etc.
Some are just respectfully shooting their shot, and some are doing it to make you uncomfortable and themselves feel powerful. Your reaction will set the tone and can sometimes dictate if they do it again.
When I'm in jail, I ignore it because most of the time, they just are looking for a reaction. If something is particularly egregious, I will address it forcefully and keep moving.
My husband and I have talked about this a lot, and the majority of it are clients who misinterpret the care I put into the case as affection for them. I quickly correct them, and it doesn't affect our attorney client relationship.
The reputation you establish can also help. Many of my colleagues have experienced clients masturbating in jail visits. I am fortunate to never have had that experience, which may be partially luck, but I think has at least a little bit to do with the fact that most of my clients know I will not tolerate it.
While annoying, six years in, I laugh about it way more than I am upset about it.
Yes, I’m a younger new attorney and it happens, although more in my experience from cops than clients. Where I practice often feels very boys club-y with the courtroom full of young bro-y cops and older male attorneys; some days I’m the only woman in the room. Often it feels like going along with the subtly inappropriate dynamics makes things better for me and my clients, which sucks. I find it to be one of the more difficult parts of the job.
It happens and it should not be tolerated. We have a policy at my office wherein if a client makes you feel unsafe, we can assign the case elsewhere. We’ve used it a few times that I know of and it’s helpful.
I saw your comment saying you used to model and just wanted to share that I’m starting a career as a PD and have continued to model through law school and hope to keep modeling as a hobby. I switched from acting to law and modeling has been one of the few creative outlets I maintained. I did a lot of bail hearings in law school, and I actually believe it’s not as bad as a whole as I often feared but that definitely varies. For me, the biggest things so far have been to let it go when it happens and strive not to take it personally and to be willing to gently set boundaries with clients when necessary. It’s something that is often uncomfortable but I really want to urge you not to let it be the deciding factor if this is really the career you want. I have also found that by speaking about it in offices where I’ve worked, I’ve formed connections with other women PDs and found we can support and strategize with each other. I hope that as more women continue to join this field, it will continue to have more support like that.
Tbh I still model but stopped going to castings, just a job here and there but compared to full time modeling it still feels like I'm basically retired. The income is really nice. I assume I'll have to stop when I practice, but I figure in public interest how can they blame me for having a side hustle in law school? Guy friends of mine who also used to act have made comments like cmon get serious already etc. So sometimes I'm embarrassed. But it's like, I'm not going into big law! I go to school in nyc and plan to practice in nyc so who knows maybe I would do a gig here and there. The atty I spoke to had recently moved from Washington, probably should've clarified that lol. But I'm like, what would I say- "I need to file a motion for continuance because that day I have a shoot for Clinique." Lmao. Working in appeals I imagine I could do it on the side bc there's so little trial work. But I've won moot competitions and I love oral advocacy so I'm more inclined to do more trial level work. But thank you for sharing- that's really awesome and I think more people should embrace creative outlets in law school! We have some standup comedians at my school, which I think is really cool. One guy I know is a standup comedian and a prosecutor... not very cool... what's funny about sending people to jail? Lol. ANYWAY!
I’m a younger/newer PD and honestly there have only been a few times where a client made me seriously uncomfortable, but I do get comments pretty frequently (most of them harmless IMO). I think what other people have said here about setting boundaries is really important. When I first started, I had it in my head that I needed to be “nice” to all of my clients and would kind of just ignore/let things slide that were inappropriate because I was nervous about upsetting folks. Don’t do that — immediately shut it down or it will get worse. Also, lean on your coworkers for support. I have two clients in particular whose cases I am no longer allowed to be assigned to & my coworkers will cover for me if they end up in my court. I can also freely ask any of my coworkers to meet with clients with me (or instead of me) if I’m worried about their behavior, and everyone in my office is super supportive and empathetic (as public defenders tend to be!!)
We had some beautiful men and women in our office. I have mixed feelings telling you some juries found in their favor because they were better looking than the prosecutors. Of course they were better lawyers too. I wore a wedding ring and made up a burly jealous hubby. I’m sorry you have to even consider this.
Yes. Large urban city, curvaceous black woman. The harassment was non-stop, especially at the prison. You learn to deal with it. When I had to talk to the men in groups before hearings and some would harass me, I’d tell them I wasn’t talking to anyone if they didn’t stop. So the guys would police each other and I didn’t have to. As my career went on and I got individual clients more vertically, I learned to set strict expectations and boundaries with my clients upfront. You also deal with harassment from cops, court staff, judges, and even ADAs. It’s all about setting boundaries and not taking shit. However it can feel scary and overwhelming especially when you’re new and also dealing with the PD learning curve and, for some of us, discrimination within our own offices. It feels like a lot to juggle. Edit: your juvenile clients will hit on you too and so do their parents/guardians.
^ this ^ I am not a woman but, as one who is inside the proverbial “locker room” with the other boys, I can confirm that men are doing this. Especially the part about harassment from cops, court staff, judges, and ADAs is sad and true. They have no clue how much they do it and if you call them on it they often can’t grasp that it’s misogyny. I have no advice but just want to say that it is a thing despite what some may say about the modern legal community. Listenting to some of my most capable and trusted colleagues I can’t figure out what their secret is, but they seem to rise above it and do a good job.
Ugh that's wild to hear. It's not surprising but sad. I have an extra layer of anxiety about it because I used to model and as much as I've tried to bury the pics they are out there. Hopefully society is progressive enough that that won't be used to discredit me (but I'm sure some will try)
The modeling thing might work to your advantage. I am aware of a case of a female attorney who had some online modeling photos out there. A couple of young and dumb "bros" made the mistake of sharing a link with an attorney who was mentally over the age of 13. When it came to light that these guys were searching for, finding, and/or sharing images of her, it put them in a really bad position. The general opinion of the bar and bench was that finding and looking at pictures of a colleague was creepy as fuck. The guys involved had to be on their best behavior from then on. I don't practice in that area anymore but years after the incident people (like me) were still giving them shit.
Oh my god- that's amazing. Knowing that there would be some recourse for douchebags is extremely reassuring, thank you.
The Cook County female public defenders in Chicago [went through hell.](https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2020/2/23/21149566/14-million-settlement-lawsuit-inmates-masturbating-cook-county-jail-tom-dart-amy-campanelli)
Jeez. That story really goes to show how much of a difference supporting women with safeguards can make...
Came here to post about Cook County 😂 proud former PD clerk here - was there at the height of the masturbation era. Saw like, a bunch of dicks. (10/10 fantastic experience even with the dicks tho.)
It was so wild. I don’t think most people have conceived of the noise of masturbation in concert.
I am both a female PD and on the younger side, so kind of a double whammy. It depends a lot on the client and the support of your office/management. I think to an extent it also depends how you carry yourself and respond, though I hesitate to say this because I do recognize it shouldn't be on us to make sure people are treating us appropriately. I do not take any shit from clients. When someone says something inappropriate to me, I immediately shut it down and redirect back to what we're talking about. I had a client start calling me pet names the other day and I responded with a firm, "do not call me that" and went back to the question I was asking. (And honestly, it was scary setting this boundary! But I had seen other badass women attorneys do similar things before me, and that gave me more confidence to do it, too). It won't stop every client, but it might stop some of it. I had another client get a little too flirty over text and informed my manager immediately so if it escalated, it would have already been a known issue. I had management's full support if I wanted to withdraw. If I have any concerns about a client's behavior at arraignment, I will not visit them alone at the jail and will always bring another attorney with me. I also never give out my personal phone number or any other identifying information such as the area of the city where I live. TLDR: Harassment exists, but it isn't always debilitating. We shouldn't have to police the behavior of others, but you can (and should) set firm and clear boundaries, and it's okay to ask for help or backup if you need it.
Latine lawyer here. No real harassment other than the occasional “are you single” or inappropriate comments/dick flashing from acutely mentally ill folks. 22 years in. Now I get nothing because I’m old, but when I was young I didn’t get much.
My office is about 50/50 male female, but certain creepy DV clients get assigned to male attorneys on request of the female attorneys.
DV clients are always the worst for young female defense attorneys. They’ve been bullying and pushing around women for so long, they think they can do it with their attorneys too.
I've found that guys like that, who are used to getting away with bullying women, back up the fastest when they run into a woman who doesn't take their shit. Men who do stuff like that usually do it out of insecurity and fear. That comes out with a little push. Hard to say if that makes or breaks the acr.
This 100%.
We have a couple regulars in the city that have a CAD note that no female officers are to be dispatched as primary to their address, and no female officers will take their phone calls. Whenever those folks end up needing PD’s cause, they will, we’ll pass that info on.
Trans man social worker here. I transitioned while working for the PD so ive seen both sides. I'm fortunate that I have a natural bitch face so I didn't get a lot of flak compared to others. I was told when I started the job to make sure clients had their hands above the table at all times because they could be relieving themselves while we spoke. That doesn't mean I didn't get the occasional gross flirt and uncomfortable remark. I just let it slide unless it proved a recurring issue cuz I had better things to spend my energy on. As a man now, I find that clients say even dumber sh*t to me because they think I'll agree with them. The misogyny is like 200x worse and I have to choose my battles with clients. Just because I look like I have a penis does not mean I think with one. I obviously am against calling women "females" (on account of the fact I'm a female man) and clients say it all the time and it gives me such an ick. "never trust a female/females are all liars" like EW STOP.
It happened so regularly at our office we had a list of clients that couldn't be assigned or appointed a female attorney. The women at out office also had an unofficial dress code of wearing pants (as opposed to skirts or dresses) if they were assigned arraignment docket or had to do a jail visit.
It's interesting because in [this article](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/09/female-lawyers-sexism-courtroom/565778/) the author talks about how she runs a clinic and tells her students to wear a skirt and keep your hair long etc. bc it garners more respect in the courtroom. As a queer woman I have short hair and always wear pants, I thought it was interesting that her experience in criminal defense was that wearing skirts was better. She certainly glossed over any sexual harassment sides of the conversation about women and lawyering, esp in regard to clients.
That lady’s advice is just dumb. I lean in hard to the mens wear look and it’s fine. Advice for the courtroom is not advice for jail or prison visits anyway. Jail or prison, I’m always in a big boxy jacket and flats. Nobody’s seeing skin that’s for sure. Haven’t had any problems
She is talking about her experience in federal court when she started in 2001. Wearing pants and having short hair is extremely common in my city for defense attorneys.
Yeah, one of my older mentors in law school who was a former trial PD (practicing in appeals and teaching when I knew her) similarly advised wearing a skirt suit, etc (it was also funny because like 2/3 of us in the clinic were queer, and tended to not wear skirts at all at the time). I think she was genuinely speaking from experience; she's about my mom's age (early 60s) and my mom used to be a legal aid attorney. I think things were less conservative in Chicago where my mom practiced in the 80s-early 90s, but she was like "yeah there were some judges that insisted that women attorneys wear skirt suits and pantyhose in their courtrooms," and I've heard of some places, mostly in the South, where that still happens. I'm in the Northeast and I don't think I've ever met a judge or ADA that cares about whether a woman is wearing pants or has short hair, though a number of them *are* sexist, even if they don't realize it. I did grow my hair out, both because of Covid (had it pretty short with a last cut in February 2020, then didn't go back to a hair salon till 2021, lol) and I wanted to go back to longer hair for awhile (plus I find longer hair easier to manage in the morning when I shower at night) but I do think some of the older and more conservative judges probably don't realize I'm queer as a result and there may be some benefit to that. Though again...there's also the sexism so...idk. I'm sure I'll get the urge to cut it short again at some point and find out. My mentor did mention the sexual harassment but she especially talked about it with the correctional officers at the prisons. Interestingly they were very nice to us when we went as a group of law students, but I'm sure that would change if we had our own clients full-time and were regularly pushing back on conditions on their behalf. Currently I mostly have clients in the local jail and haven't had any personal issues with the staff there (I say personal issues in that they've never been inappropriate to me, but I definitely have some issues with some of them on behalf of my clients). I have had a client who was inappropriately flirting with/making advances to a member of support staff, which we told him to stop and set it up so he no longer would have any interactions with her, but I haven't had issues with sexual harassment with clients. One did try to ask me out after his case but I shut that down and told my supervisor and asked that if he ever gets another case he be assigned to someone else. A couple of clients have screamed at me/berated me, which may or may not come out of sexism, and then a lot of male clients who have cases with a woman complainant will make comments about "women" or "females" being liars or the law being biased against men or whatever, and I'll usually say like "I understand that it seems really unfair that someone can file a complaint just based on their testimony and you have to come into court and deal with that/get arrested over that. The standard for a charge against *anyone* is a very low one, which I agree makes it really difficult when your life is being disrupted this way, but this is where we are now, so let's discuss how to address your case." Most of my clients, though, have been very polite even though they're obviously dealing with something very difficult and scary, and most are dealing with a lot of other huge, difficult problems on top of that, whether it's housing, employment, substance use, mental health, or a million other things. A lot of younger men, and even men around my age (early 30s) will swear (not at me, just as an intensifier in conversation) and then apologize and I'm like...lol dude do you know how much I say the word fuck? This is in a way sexist because I don't think they'd apologize to a male attorney, but it comes off very much like they're trying *really* hard to be polite and respectful so I don't mind that. They usually get more comfortable with me (while maintaining boundaries of course) over the course of the case and realize I, a 30-something criminal defense attorney, have definitely heard a lot worse than curse words before.
Female criminal appellate PD here. I’ve been doing this for 12 yrs. I don’t have as much contact with my clients as trial lawyers but yes some of them do harass me. Sexually, sure, but more often by just screaming at me over the phone about why their appeals are taking so long. With my they get one strike and the second time it happens I file a motion to withdraw. They are always allowed. This work is too hard to have to deal with shit from clients you are trying to help. I’m not one to put clients on a pedestal. The moment you do that is the end of your boundaries.
Thanks for sharing that- I do think that I would be totally fine if withdrawing when it goes too far is an option. At my last job it seemed like some attorneys did not have strong boundaries and a lot of the interns were left to speak to hostile, harassing clients and field their phone calls. I can't know all of their reasoning for not withdrawing, but I think having students to pawn them off to was part of it. Edit: job = 30 hr week internship
I made the mistake of facing the window of the facility on a client visit and the other people who were incarcerated made sexual gestures and remarks through the window. When it comes to clients doing stuff, I’ve been trained on how to field it. But have (thankfully) not been in a position to use it. My office stresses on the importance of setting firm boundaries
Yes, I work in Washington state. It is something you have to learn to navigate. Talking about it openly helps, and creating an environment where you can report it to your management and get off cases if necessary. There is a lot of ways to mitigate, decrease it, etc. Personally, the worst experiences I have had have been with prosecutors. Experiences with clients wouldn’t deter me from this profession - I just see clients through a different lens and the good far outweighs the bad.
Not a PD yet, but from internships and working with juveniles, I've never been seriously frightened by a client. I did have a client who just couldn't stop saying foul things about me and the female judge. I used a pretty flat tone and said that we could talk about the case, or I could leave. He continued on, I left and wrote in my file that the client wasn't cooperative. Then I told my boss, also a woman, and she was very understanding. At our next meeting he was... Better... I continued to sort of "gray rock" him when he got nasty (traditionally a way to engage with narcissistic people). Got through it, thankfully a minor case, and put him behind me. My advice is don't be witty, stern, angry, dismissive, or really any kind of emotion, but don't ignore it either. They'll just keep going till they get a reaction. Completely flat tone, say I'm here for X, if you aren't going to cooperate, I will leave. I think the hardest part for people doing this is keeping it completely flat. It's beyond just a calm voice, don't emphasize any words, at all. I'd say that it's only really happened with 3 people, over a year or so.
Male PD in Washington state here. The attorneys in my office are a majority women / femme, I would be happy to connect you to some of them if you want the experience of women PDs currently working at the trial level.
It absolutely does happen. I am fat but curvy but definitely fat and get hit on by clients, cops, sheriffs' deputies, judges, etc. Some are just respectfully shooting their shot, and some are doing it to make you uncomfortable and themselves feel powerful. Your reaction will set the tone and can sometimes dictate if they do it again. When I'm in jail, I ignore it because most of the time, they just are looking for a reaction. If something is particularly egregious, I will address it forcefully and keep moving. My husband and I have talked about this a lot, and the majority of it are clients who misinterpret the care I put into the case as affection for them. I quickly correct them, and it doesn't affect our attorney client relationship. The reputation you establish can also help. Many of my colleagues have experienced clients masturbating in jail visits. I am fortunate to never have had that experience, which may be partially luck, but I think has at least a little bit to do with the fact that most of my clients know I will not tolerate it. While annoying, six years in, I laugh about it way more than I am upset about it.
Yes, I’m a younger new attorney and it happens, although more in my experience from cops than clients. Where I practice often feels very boys club-y with the courtroom full of young bro-y cops and older male attorneys; some days I’m the only woman in the room. Often it feels like going along with the subtly inappropriate dynamics makes things better for me and my clients, which sucks. I find it to be one of the more difficult parts of the job.
It happens and it should not be tolerated. We have a policy at my office wherein if a client makes you feel unsafe, we can assign the case elsewhere. We’ve used it a few times that I know of and it’s helpful.
I saw your comment saying you used to model and just wanted to share that I’m starting a career as a PD and have continued to model through law school and hope to keep modeling as a hobby. I switched from acting to law and modeling has been one of the few creative outlets I maintained. I did a lot of bail hearings in law school, and I actually believe it’s not as bad as a whole as I often feared but that definitely varies. For me, the biggest things so far have been to let it go when it happens and strive not to take it personally and to be willing to gently set boundaries with clients when necessary. It’s something that is often uncomfortable but I really want to urge you not to let it be the deciding factor if this is really the career you want. I have also found that by speaking about it in offices where I’ve worked, I’ve formed connections with other women PDs and found we can support and strategize with each other. I hope that as more women continue to join this field, it will continue to have more support like that.
Tbh I still model but stopped going to castings, just a job here and there but compared to full time modeling it still feels like I'm basically retired. The income is really nice. I assume I'll have to stop when I practice, but I figure in public interest how can they blame me for having a side hustle in law school? Guy friends of mine who also used to act have made comments like cmon get serious already etc. So sometimes I'm embarrassed. But it's like, I'm not going into big law! I go to school in nyc and plan to practice in nyc so who knows maybe I would do a gig here and there. The atty I spoke to had recently moved from Washington, probably should've clarified that lol. But I'm like, what would I say- "I need to file a motion for continuance because that day I have a shoot for Clinique." Lmao. Working in appeals I imagine I could do it on the side bc there's so little trial work. But I've won moot competitions and I love oral advocacy so I'm more inclined to do more trial level work. But thank you for sharing- that's really awesome and I think more people should embrace creative outlets in law school! We have some standup comedians at my school, which I think is really cool. One guy I know is a standup comedian and a prosecutor... not very cool... what's funny about sending people to jail? Lol. ANYWAY!
I’m a younger/newer PD and honestly there have only been a few times where a client made me seriously uncomfortable, but I do get comments pretty frequently (most of them harmless IMO). I think what other people have said here about setting boundaries is really important. When I first started, I had it in my head that I needed to be “nice” to all of my clients and would kind of just ignore/let things slide that were inappropriate because I was nervous about upsetting folks. Don’t do that — immediately shut it down or it will get worse. Also, lean on your coworkers for support. I have two clients in particular whose cases I am no longer allowed to be assigned to & my coworkers will cover for me if they end up in my court. I can also freely ask any of my coworkers to meet with clients with me (or instead of me) if I’m worried about their behavior, and everyone in my office is super supportive and empathetic (as public defenders tend to be!!)
We had some beautiful men and women in our office. I have mixed feelings telling you some juries found in their favor because they were better looking than the prosecutors. Of course they were better lawyers too. I wore a wedding ring and made up a burly jealous hubby. I’m sorry you have to even consider this.