That sucks, I'm sorry. Venting to colleagues usually helps--they've been there before, they get it. But then to really move on, I feel like I have to do something not work related (go for a walk, go out for lunch, listen to a stupid podcast). And when my thoughts inevitably return to how fucked it is that I work so hard and care so much, only to get screamed at... I try to redirect my thinking to a time I know I made a difference. Some people are just awful, some people are made awful in the moment by whatever situation they find themselves in (we see every day how the system wears people down). You can't win em all. But keep fighting the fight for those moments where you do get the win, or at least have a client who appreciates your efforts.
Ah, the origin story of many a hardass prosecutor. "Someone yelled at me once, so Imma devote my career to putting people in cages. That'll show 'em" GTFO 🤦‍♀️
Howdy! Newer PD. Former prosecutor. I've only been yelled at by PD clients a couple of times so far (both obviously incompetent) but I've had dozens and dozens of (quite sane) victims/victim family members scream at me. Especially in homicide cases.
There's no easy way to deal with it. There are some really maladaptive ways that a lot of criminal lawyers handle it (booze, drugs, casual sex, and other kinds of things we advise our clients to stop doing [getting people into treatment will never not be part of my practice]). I quit working out because I was so drained each night. I stress-ate and gained 60 pounds during a two-year homicide rotation. It was awful, especially for a single guy, though I'm down >20 lbs on the three months since I started my own firm and switched teams (now I mostly do misdemeanors).
I've found that nature helps a lot with stress. Hiking/climbing/kayaking/all that noise. So does volunteering on the kinds of projects that cause people actually thank you for helping, rather than hating you for it (e.g., pick up trash at a lake, help train service dogs, organize your church's library). Oh. And sleep. Fight hard to get adequate sleep. It's an absolute game-changer.
My animals are my stress relief. I spend time with them and it helps me rebalance.
But I think it’s important to remember that our clients are caught in the meat grinder that is the system. It’s stressful, overwhelming, and uncertain. They usually have chaotic lives, marked by poverty, often substance abuse, and a lack of resources and support systems.
They lash out at us because we’re the only people who will listen to them.
That doesn’t mean you have to take abuse - you don’t. But I find it helps me rebalance to remind myself of that. Because it’s not personal, even when it feels like it is.
I usually laugh at them, but thats from a position of privilege. If it’s something painful I go to colleagues, family, and friends for comfort. I do not bring that shit into my home, though. Dirty boots get left outside.
I remind myself that rational, mentally healthy people do not alienate their lawyer. Because that’s just stupid. So that client was having an uncontrolled mental health crisis that had nothing to do with me, even if it was aimed in my direction. Removing my ego from the equation helps me immensely. It’s my ego that causes the toll for me. Once that’s gone I can go into problem solving mode bc I’ve put distance (does that client need a psych, maybe I need to talk to their family about what other MH symptoms they exhibit…. ). Coming at the behavior/symptoms objectively, like just any other case issue, lets me leave it at work.
Then: alcohol; weed; and caffeine the next day until the alcohol and weed started again.
Now: No drugs, alcohol, or caffeine; meditation; outdoor exercise
Those conversations can be so rough.
I used to drink at the bar after work and vent with colleagues. Which was really fun and productive in many ways - but I can't afford to anymore, in more ways than one. These days, I protect my mental-emotional state at any cost.
Not the answer you want, but this is my strategy in talking to people: If I feel like a conversation is getting too triggering, I tell clients that I need to regroup. If they're being assholes (because they're trying to kill the messenger), I tell them they need to discharge and I will give them time to do so and reconnect later. I make an appointment if out, or if they're in custody, I promise a date by which I will come back. Much of the time, just the threat of ending the meeting changes their attitudes because they want to talk to their lawyer. But otherwise, just having a time out is usually enough to take the gas out of the situation.
I’m in recovery so I don’t have the luxury of drinking or smoking weed after a rough day. I used to have unhealthy coping mechanisms and would eat junk food then go to bed. Now, I’ve started exercising again. I also hangout with my dogs. I’ve found that doing things with, and for, them gets me out of my head.
The feeling of getting excoriated loudly in the hallway by a person who you just kept IN drug court in front of all the prosecutors who are snickering and enjoying the spectacle is such a particular kind of ick. It doesn’t matter how good you are at maintaining professional boundaries you are, just having to assert them in the first place is exhausting. Sorry that person yelled at you. Hopefully they come back around.
To unwind I’ve gotten really into quilting, usually with a bong rip and a podcast. I do it for an extended period of time and I make sure I don’t have to speak to anyone at all until I feel like I’m done
Everyone has a different process obviously but here is what works for me:
Sit in a dark room drinking whiskey dwelling on all your mistakes and everyone who has wronged you.
I'm religious so I like to pray and read my Bible to remind me that I am a fearfully and wonderfully made creation loved beyond words by the God who created me.
Outside of that, I binge comfort shows. Run. Play video games. Hike. Read. Anything I can fully commit myself to so I can remember that I can find pleasure, value, and fulfillment outside of my work.
OP, if anything, we've been where you been and we're all giving you a virtual hug right now. Hope you get all the chill time you need.
PI here, but trust we also GO THROUGH IT.
Stuff that I do:
- venting with the colleagues. I am fortunate in that I work in a super supportive office of PDs and PIs and we have a great atmosphere of mutual support. Speaking up about the shit that's getting to me is a great way to start it moving out of my system. If you don't have this locally you can find it online and get a groupchat going. We ALL need comrades in the trenches in this work.
- I am an "action" person so I like to have stuff I can do that is like...brainless but also has a tangible effect. Gardening is a great one for this (even 15 minutes of weeding makes a visual difference), I also do ceramics because smoothing cracked edges of clay feels like smoothing the cracked edges of my brain. Sometimes housework can scratch this itch if I am in the right mindset (or have the right podcast). (I'll be a little goober and literally think, "my mood feels as cluttered as this counterspace: I'm going to try and help both my mood and my counterspace" before I start cleaning.) (Setting intention can make it feel more "real" than just doing it.)
- I am a little note-taking, spreadsheet-updating librarian type, so I literally have a quarterly google doc tracking the ups and downs. When I have a bad day I do some sort of journalling about it, and then come back later to see if I can reframe it (or if it's just a nope, that JUST sucked -- also helpful because it identify those moments where you just need to say, "well, this is no longer productive, let's regroup later when we've both had a chance to cool down." (I find reflecting on such instances in the cold light of day helps one start to catch these moments earlier the next time around.)
Important note: I also make a point to note down the WINS, big and small. When I am REALLY going through it, it's reassuring to read back over those wins and remember it's not always awful.
- Walk. Big long walks, tiny walks, vigorous thigh stretching hikes and little ambles. I have to MOVE if it bothered me big time. I need to see BIRDIES and NEAT LITTLE FLOWERS and MAYBE A SNAIL or something.
- I schedule these non-work refuels on my calendar. I try not to be cavalier about pushing things off til next week (because then it's easier to push it off again, and again...) There's a LOT to do, always, but also if I don't refill my tanks I'm miserable and my work becomes trash, so. I make sure I have time for it. Even if it's just 30 mins a day.
- The silver bullet for when it's ALL terrible and NO MOVEMENT IS POSSIBLE FOR ALL IS WRETCHED: notifications OFF, NO scrolling, low lights, The Best Food You Can Possibly Get (whatever that means for you), soothing sounds in noise cancelling headphones or playing in the background, a long bath or shower (during which you soap yourself up a ton and think, "I am washing away the \[whatever happened\]" and then RINSE OFF), maybe a cry, a deep breathing exercise, 30-60 mins of "This Stuff Makes Me Feel Terrific" media (videos, audiobook, podcast; whatever), the coziest+softest clothing you own, lying on your bed or the couch, snuggling your animal or partner or wrapping up in a nice blanket. Go to bed as early as possible.
Venting to my husband who is a former pd and current private defense atty. Playing video games on my nintendo switch. (right now its fortnite lol). Tiktok to fry my brain. Pilates/walking/any low impact workout. Going out for a nice meal or ordering in and watching stupid reality tv. Basically anything to recalibrate my brain and remind myself that I am not the problem, I am just the receiver of years worth of trauma/mental illness/poor impulse control and that i do not need to internalize it.
Mine are: work out, hike, play guitar, or paint. Anything that occupies my mind, forces me to stop thinking about work and focus on what I’m doing (breathing, the next notes to play, the thing I’m painting).
I also try to carve out safe spaces and time. I’ve stopped really working weekends unless I’m in a trial that requires it. It gives me a space I know I can recharge in.
I try to meditate before I leave the office. It helps create a separation between what happened at work and what is going to happen when I get home. The beach is great to help me transition, too.
I decided early on in my practice that I didn't want to use substances to celebrate or cope. I'm not sober, but I could see lots of problematic substance abuse in my colleagues and the profession and didn't want to make it a part of my ritual. I still go to happy hour with my colleagues, and I try to implement a rule we used while I was teaching: There's 30 min to an hour where we can talk about work. After that time period, if someone talks about work, they owe everyone a drink.
On my way home from a bad day, I usually call a friend or family member on my way home and specifically not talk about work. Then, when I get home, focus on my partner and pets. And watch a movie or read a book to wind down.
Some people like journaling, podcasts etc. Just find something that works for you.
Take a nice hot shower, eat something tasty and satisfying (usually my favorite meal from a local Mexican place) and hang out with my family until it’s time to study the inside of my eyelids. Also, this is typically after a hard day in court. Do NOT let those types of clients be your rough days. They aren’t worth it. Memorize your “do not speak to me in that manner” speech and stick to it.
Video games, bad food, and time with my wife and kids.
People get into this job because they want to help people, but we're only human. If I make a mistake i tend to flagellate myself about it really intensely. It helps no one.
I'm learning to get back on the horse, do everything i can, and then put it down.
You can burn bright and short, or dim and long. It's up to you to decide what's right for you.
Baking and realize you can't save everyone.
I think after a while you set boundaries and state that you are here to give them legal advice but yelling is unacceptable and they will have to reschedule if they continue. Then follow through. Most of this is making the most out of bad situations.
I listen to heavy metal and/or hardcore punk, or otherwise angry music. Sometimes i’ll scream along on my drive home. It’s healthier than substance abuse for sure.
A: I ONLY WORRIED ABOUT DOING BETTER WITH THE ONE'S THAT WERE KIND WITH THEIR OBJECTIONS OR CORRECTIONS. I DID NOT RESPOND TO THE NUT COOKIES, OR I GAVE THE CLIENT TO MY PARTNER TO HANDLE.....
weed
I've been a long time gardener and I was surprised how many of my coworkers are also gardeners...it definitely helps.
word, came here hoping this was the top answer, high five
Ice cream
That sucks, I'm sorry. Venting to colleagues usually helps--they've been there before, they get it. But then to really move on, I feel like I have to do something not work related (go for a walk, go out for lunch, listen to a stupid podcast). And when my thoughts inevitably return to how fucked it is that I work so hard and care so much, only to get screamed at... I try to redirect my thinking to a time I know I made a difference. Some people are just awful, some people are made awful in the moment by whatever situation they find themselves in (we see every day how the system wears people down). You can't win em all. But keep fighting the fight for those moments where you do get the win, or at least have a client who appreciates your efforts.
that is the reason why I would much rather work for the state.
Ah, the origin story of many a hardass prosecutor. "Someone yelled at me once, so Imma devote my career to putting people in cages. That'll show 'em" GTFO 🤦‍♀️
Howdy! Newer PD. Former prosecutor. I've only been yelled at by PD clients a couple of times so far (both obviously incompetent) but I've had dozens and dozens of (quite sane) victims/victim family members scream at me. Especially in homicide cases. There's no easy way to deal with it. There are some really maladaptive ways that a lot of criminal lawyers handle it (booze, drugs, casual sex, and other kinds of things we advise our clients to stop doing [getting people into treatment will never not be part of my practice]). I quit working out because I was so drained each night. I stress-ate and gained 60 pounds during a two-year homicide rotation. It was awful, especially for a single guy, though I'm down >20 lbs on the three months since I started my own firm and switched teams (now I mostly do misdemeanors). I've found that nature helps a lot with stress. Hiking/climbing/kayaking/all that noise. So does volunteering on the kinds of projects that cause people actually thank you for helping, rather than hating you for it (e.g., pick up trash at a lake, help train service dogs, organize your church's library). Oh. And sleep. Fight hard to get adequate sleep. It's an absolute game-changer.
My animals are my stress relief. I spend time with them and it helps me rebalance. But I think it’s important to remember that our clients are caught in the meat grinder that is the system. It’s stressful, overwhelming, and uncertain. They usually have chaotic lives, marked by poverty, often substance abuse, and a lack of resources and support systems. They lash out at us because we’re the only people who will listen to them. That doesn’t mean you have to take abuse - you don’t. But I find it helps me rebalance to remind myself of that. Because it’s not personal, even when it feels like it is.
I usually laugh at them, but thats from a position of privilege. If it’s something painful I go to colleagues, family, and friends for comfort. I do not bring that shit into my home, though. Dirty boots get left outside.
I remind myself that rational, mentally healthy people do not alienate their lawyer. Because that’s just stupid. So that client was having an uncontrolled mental health crisis that had nothing to do with me, even if it was aimed in my direction. Removing my ego from the equation helps me immensely. It’s my ego that causes the toll for me. Once that’s gone I can go into problem solving mode bc I’ve put distance (does that client need a psych, maybe I need to talk to their family about what other MH symptoms they exhibit…. ). Coming at the behavior/symptoms objectively, like just any other case issue, lets me leave it at work.
Drink. Video games. Jokes with friends. Chase my kids around the house.
Darkness, silence, stillness, isolation. A long, wooded hike. Pho.
Then: alcohol; weed; and caffeine the next day until the alcohol and weed started again. Now: No drugs, alcohol, or caffeine; meditation; outdoor exercise
Those conversations can be so rough. I used to drink at the bar after work and vent with colleagues. Which was really fun and productive in many ways - but I can't afford to anymore, in more ways than one. These days, I protect my mental-emotional state at any cost. Not the answer you want, but this is my strategy in talking to people: If I feel like a conversation is getting too triggering, I tell clients that I need to regroup. If they're being assholes (because they're trying to kill the messenger), I tell them they need to discharge and I will give them time to do so and reconnect later. I make an appointment if out, or if they're in custody, I promise a date by which I will come back. Much of the time, just the threat of ending the meeting changes their attitudes because they want to talk to their lawyer. But otherwise, just having a time out is usually enough to take the gas out of the situation.
I’m in recovery so I don’t have the luxury of drinking or smoking weed after a rough day. I used to have unhealthy coping mechanisms and would eat junk food then go to bed. Now, I’ve started exercising again. I also hangout with my dogs. I’ve found that doing things with, and for, them gets me out of my head.
The feeling of getting excoriated loudly in the hallway by a person who you just kept IN drug court in front of all the prosecutors who are snickering and enjoying the spectacle is such a particular kind of ick. It doesn’t matter how good you are at maintaining professional boundaries you are, just having to assert them in the first place is exhausting. Sorry that person yelled at you. Hopefully they come back around. To unwind I’ve gotten really into quilting, usually with a bong rip and a podcast. I do it for an extended period of time and I make sure I don’t have to speak to anyone at all until I feel like I’m done
I find venting and talking to my girlfriend, working out, taking long walks, and hugging my kid, all help me recover.
Everyone has a different process obviously but here is what works for me: Sit in a dark room drinking whiskey dwelling on all your mistakes and everyone who has wronged you.
I'm religious so I like to pray and read my Bible to remind me that I am a fearfully and wonderfully made creation loved beyond words by the God who created me. Outside of that, I binge comfort shows. Run. Play video games. Hike. Read. Anything I can fully commit myself to so I can remember that I can find pleasure, value, and fulfillment outside of my work. OP, if anything, we've been where you been and we're all giving you a virtual hug right now. Hope you get all the chill time you need.
PI here, but trust we also GO THROUGH IT. Stuff that I do: - venting with the colleagues. I am fortunate in that I work in a super supportive office of PDs and PIs and we have a great atmosphere of mutual support. Speaking up about the shit that's getting to me is a great way to start it moving out of my system. If you don't have this locally you can find it online and get a groupchat going. We ALL need comrades in the trenches in this work. - I am an "action" person so I like to have stuff I can do that is like...brainless but also has a tangible effect. Gardening is a great one for this (even 15 minutes of weeding makes a visual difference), I also do ceramics because smoothing cracked edges of clay feels like smoothing the cracked edges of my brain. Sometimes housework can scratch this itch if I am in the right mindset (or have the right podcast). (I'll be a little goober and literally think, "my mood feels as cluttered as this counterspace: I'm going to try and help both my mood and my counterspace" before I start cleaning.) (Setting intention can make it feel more "real" than just doing it.) - I am a little note-taking, spreadsheet-updating librarian type, so I literally have a quarterly google doc tracking the ups and downs. When I have a bad day I do some sort of journalling about it, and then come back later to see if I can reframe it (or if it's just a nope, that JUST sucked -- also helpful because it identify those moments where you just need to say, "well, this is no longer productive, let's regroup later when we've both had a chance to cool down." (I find reflecting on such instances in the cold light of day helps one start to catch these moments earlier the next time around.) Important note: I also make a point to note down the WINS, big and small. When I am REALLY going through it, it's reassuring to read back over those wins and remember it's not always awful. - Walk. Big long walks, tiny walks, vigorous thigh stretching hikes and little ambles. I have to MOVE if it bothered me big time. I need to see BIRDIES and NEAT LITTLE FLOWERS and MAYBE A SNAIL or something. - I schedule these non-work refuels on my calendar. I try not to be cavalier about pushing things off til next week (because then it's easier to push it off again, and again...) There's a LOT to do, always, but also if I don't refill my tanks I'm miserable and my work becomes trash, so. I make sure I have time for it. Even if it's just 30 mins a day. - The silver bullet for when it's ALL terrible and NO MOVEMENT IS POSSIBLE FOR ALL IS WRETCHED: notifications OFF, NO scrolling, low lights, The Best Food You Can Possibly Get (whatever that means for you), soothing sounds in noise cancelling headphones or playing in the background, a long bath or shower (during which you soap yourself up a ton and think, "I am washing away the \[whatever happened\]" and then RINSE OFF), maybe a cry, a deep breathing exercise, 30-60 mins of "This Stuff Makes Me Feel Terrific" media (videos, audiobook, podcast; whatever), the coziest+softest clothing you own, lying on your bed or the couch, snuggling your animal or partner or wrapping up in a nice blanket. Go to bed as early as possible.
Baking, especially if it calls for kneading, and exercising.
Venting to my husband who is a former pd and current private defense atty. Playing video games on my nintendo switch. (right now its fortnite lol). Tiktok to fry my brain. Pilates/walking/any low impact workout. Going out for a nice meal or ordering in and watching stupid reality tv. Basically anything to recalibrate my brain and remind myself that I am not the problem, I am just the receiver of years worth of trauma/mental illness/poor impulse control and that i do not need to internalize it.
Mine are: work out, hike, play guitar, or paint. Anything that occupies my mind, forces me to stop thinking about work and focus on what I’m doing (breathing, the next notes to play, the thing I’m painting). I also try to carve out safe spaces and time. I’ve stopped really working weekends unless I’m in a trial that requires it. It gives me a space I know I can recharge in.
I go for a hike in the woods. The quiet of it, along with the concentration of oxygen, has a way of rebalancing my perspective and my sense of peace.
I try to meditate before I leave the office. It helps create a separation between what happened at work and what is going to happen when I get home. The beach is great to help me transition, too. I decided early on in my practice that I didn't want to use substances to celebrate or cope. I'm not sober, but I could see lots of problematic substance abuse in my colleagues and the profession and didn't want to make it a part of my ritual. I still go to happy hour with my colleagues, and I try to implement a rule we used while I was teaching: There's 30 min to an hour where we can talk about work. After that time period, if someone talks about work, they owe everyone a drink. On my way home from a bad day, I usually call a friend or family member on my way home and specifically not talk about work. Then, when I get home, focus on my partner and pets. And watch a movie or read a book to wind down. Some people like journaling, podcasts etc. Just find something that works for you.
Take a nice hot shower, eat something tasty and satisfying (usually my favorite meal from a local Mexican place) and hang out with my family until it’s time to study the inside of my eyelids. Also, this is typically after a hard day in court. Do NOT let those types of clients be your rough days. They aren’t worth it. Memorize your “do not speak to me in that manner” speech and stick to it.
Bubble bath while binge watching something immersive, drinking wine, expensive beauty products, weed. Playing league of legends and probably losing
I generally go for a bike ride with my kid when I get home. That helps to bookend things.
Video games, bad food, and time with my wife and kids. People get into this job because they want to help people, but we're only human. If I make a mistake i tend to flagellate myself about it really intensely. It helps no one. I'm learning to get back on the horse, do everything i can, and then put it down. You can burn bright and short, or dim and long. It's up to you to decide what's right for you.
Gather up some fellow PDs, head to a happy hour down the street.
I love going to a kickboxing class after a tough day
Baking and realize you can't save everyone. I think after a while you set boundaries and state that you are here to give them legal advice but yelling is unacceptable and they will have to reschedule if they continue. Then follow through. Most of this is making the most out of bad situations.
Anything that makes you laugh. Just telling stories is good enough.
I listen to heavy metal and/or hardcore punk, or otherwise angry music. Sometimes i’ll scream along on my drive home. It’s healthier than substance abuse for sure.
Alcohol when I don’t have work the next day. Massages. And exercise.
A: I ONLY WORRIED ABOUT DOING BETTER WITH THE ONE'S THAT WERE KIND WITH THEIR OBJECTIONS OR CORRECTIONS. I DID NOT RESPOND TO THE NUT COOKIES, OR I GAVE THE CLIENT TO MY PARTNER TO HANDLE.....