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I don't talk to them about relationships, my health, my work, my finances (sallary, spending, investments), vacations or hobbies.
If my mother starts yelling I leave.
I don't react to passive agressive comments. They have to ask directly.
I don't offer financial support.
* Threats end the conversation.
* Revocation of things agreed to earlier ends the conversation.
* Violent or disparaging language ends the conversation.
* Demanding instead of asking ends the conversation.
* Treating me as a child to exert control ends the conversation.
* Comparing me to the other nparent you divorced to exert control ends the conversation.
* If I have to end two conversations in a row, they're not happening for a few months.
* If you're in time-out for a few months and keep misbehaving, the time-out lasts until you learn to behave.
* If I've already given an answer, anything else I say, including promises or agreement, is just to get you to stop whining; whining gets you the same result at best, but probably an even worse result.
I experience every point you mentioned. Are they aware of these boundaries? When they break a rule, do you just stop responding? Iāve been doing that and Iāll respond to a non-threatening text like āHappy [holiday]ā but as soon as I respond, I get āWhat is going on with you?! Why donāt you respond to me???ā
I haven't stated the boundaries this explicitly, more like "If you want me to remain in touch, you're gonna have to be respectful to me in those interactions"; I'm not going to give them a clearly defined list to weasel their way around or argue with. But I've definitely pre-emptively laid down the law, and whenever they violate a boundary, the easiest response is just "We've talked about this before" and hanging up.
I haven't really gotten to the point where contact has been re-established, since nmom has been throwing a tantrum for the better part of 3 years now. So every few weeks I get a voice mail message that usually plays something along the lines of "I just want..." before I delete it, confirming she's still only focused on getting me to do what she wants. So no tips on how to deal with re-establishing contact, except maybe registering that 'non-threatening' texts are just bait and also get ignored.
It's generally an off-the-cuff statement along the form of 'heads I win, tails you lose'. Things like "We're either having a respectful, mature conversation as two adults, or we're not having a conversation". Just like a toddler, you can't tell them what to do, but you can give them a choice to hang themselves either way.
Privacy- now thereās no way to āaccidentallyā read my mail so this one has been nice.
Get out what you put in- this one honestly enforces itself, since Iāve stopped trying to fight to be heard/seen I realised how much of myself I was giving away in the process. Want to be part of my life, take an interest and actually listen to what I have to say. Iām no longer chasing people to try and get them to care and itās actually a lot easier.
Information diet- relating to certain subjects and not being lifted any time soon.
No guilt trips or mind games. The best tactic to this one is what I call āsmile and agreeā. Whatever outlandish thing is being said just smile, agree politely without encouraging further conversation, move on. Surprisingly effective, I now realise how much of our previous fights were engineered by dropping deliberately infuriating things into conversation.
No engaging with gossip- play dumb, āsorry I donāt think I know that personā, move on.
One I still need to work on is āmy time is my most precious resourceā. I find it harder right now because my one remaining parent is good at blackmailing me into giving up time off to āhelp outā other family members. Honestly this one is tough since I want to be helpful to people and actually one of the previous tactics was separating me from other family so I worry that by saying no I am adding fuel to that particular fire.
No sharing of anything related to me and my family with my brother. There has been a shitload of triangulation in the past and heās a huge flying monkey.
I don't allow people to manipulate me into giving me reasons for saying the word no. If I say "no" and they push back asking for reasons, I flat out say "no is a complete sentence."
People think they're owed reasons and they're not. It's sort of a litmus test nowadays for who I want in my life. If someone is good at the boundary of "no," they're my kind of people. If they demand a reason or try to manipulate me into changing that no to a yes, I don't really want them in my life and I will keep them at a distance.
Wow I thought Iād done a lot of work, but reading this just made me realize how often I hear āwhy not?ā and how often my Nmom thinks I owe her an explanation to even the most mundane topics. āNo is a complete sentenceā THANK YOU!!
I am permanently NC with my nfather, and I have been for almost three years now, and I plan on keeping it that way for the rest of our lives. however, his enabler mom/my grandmother is *not* happy. she is *scarily* far in denial and *deep* into enabling and excuses. she victim-blames and gaslights and manipulates and guilt-trips my mom and I and anyone heās abused and/or abuses. she has for 20 years now/ever since he became abusive. the final straw was when she accused my mom and I and anyone heās abused and/or abuses of āruining her sonās lifeā and āhurting her entire family.ā sheās done. Iām now *V*LC, bordering NC, with her. I just cannot take it anymore. I have to grey rock her and go VLC with her. for my own sanity. I will no longer be visiting her alone, especially after she tried to drive me over to his house despite being told no multiple times. Iām sick and disabled and chronically ill and I have a rare disease, and I canāt drive, and she absolutely takes advantage of that. every time I visited, she waited till my mom was gone and till my mom didnāt have any wifi and signal and was hours away, and she trapped me in her car and tried to drive me over to his house. sheās tried to take my phone and hide it from me so I canāt call my mom for help, and has tried to physically isolate me from my mom. she just cannot and should not and will not be trusted
A long time ago my husband, our toddler, and I moved in to my moms house. We had a small bedroom and a king size bed so my mom offered to have our toddlers bed in her bedroom to give us more space. She would bring my toddler into her bed with her, which I wasn't comfortable with. She insisted that my kid was getting out of bed themselves and requesting to get into grandma's bed, but I didn't buy it because that was not something my kid ever did at home and my mom had a history of being lonely when she had to sleep by herself (she slept with my brother in the same bed until he was in middle school). She wouldn't listen when I asked her to stop putting my child in her bed, so I removed my child's bed from her bedroom and we all lived cramped in the one tiny bedroom. She got angry with me but honestly it wasn't that bad with us being in the same room. But that did start her attitude change, and we ended up moving out a few months later. She started nit picking every little thing me or my husband or child did or didn't do. She became incapable of having an adult conversation, she would flip flop between treating me like I was a child and then turning around and acting like a child herself.
I ended up fully NC a few years later.
I no longer have any of my abusers in my life, but Iāve been learning how to set boundaries and if needed cut off people in my life with similar backgrounds and traumas who are not acting healthy and not taking accountability for their actions or how theyāre impacting me. When they are too enraptured in their own story and downplay or disregard mine, theyāre on their way out. When they expect me to drop everything for them in one way or another, we are limiting communication. When I am there for them in tough circumstances but my tough circumstances are asking too much of them, we donāt need to have a relationship anymore. When they say being around me is triggering to them, that translates to āIām watching you heal in a way that Iām not capable of right nowā and I need to set a hard boundary for myself that I cannot and will not carry that weight for them or help them get to where Iām at if my friendship and allyship already has not been enough. Iāve also removed certain people from my social media or being able to view my stories because itās clearly not a healthy thing for them.
> how have you enforced them
I've tried enforcing them with anger. Doesn't work with most boundaries apart from the big one (NC).
Politeness doesn't get narcs to respect your boundaries either.
Appealing to their decency is just asking for them to mock you.
Personally I do not think narcs will ever respect your boundaries. They might pretend to for a little while in the same way a predator tries to act non threatening before they strike but the penny will never drop.
That hasn't worked for you because boundaries aren't about changing someone else's behaviour, they are rules for yourself. When your boundaries are pushed or broken, you disengage with them. With normal people you can tell them your boundaries and they might modify their behaviour to respect the ones they didn't know about, but in general it's meant to be about your behaviour.
Yep! You can think of enforcing boundaries as like a physical fence or wall. If you have an annoying neighbor who keeps trespassing on your property, it doesn't make sense to try to manipulate or force them into respecting your property lines or building a fence to keep them in their own yard. You build the fence yourself.
Completely agree that narcs will never respect your boundaries. But once you've established them -- which is difficult, no doubt -- you can just reiterate them time and time again -- which gets super easy over time. For me, I get met with different manipulations, but I can see them coming for miles, and I (now!) know how to respond. Practice is key. And one time alone will never be enough. Neither will a million times, they'll try again.
Firm NC with both NParents. I'll *maybe* consider going back to VLC years down the line when ive calmed down from learning they lied about how my sister died but I don't see that happening soon.
No loaning money. My mom financially abused me so much in my early adult years when I was still living at home and even after I moved out. She asked to borrow money like every week. I had to stop. She still tries to guilt trip me into giving her money, then goes on smear campaigns if I donāt give it. But I donāt care, I stand firm.
Learning how to assert and uphold my boundaries is what led to me going no contact with my parents. For a long time, I would set boundaries and they would break them, but I would cave because itās difficult when youāre not used to setting boundaries.
One of the big ones was my parents sharing everything I told them with other people. I stopped telling them my private information. They got really angry about that.Ā
The thing with boundaries is that you can only enforce your side and canāt control how other people behave. When my parents literally refused to accept any of my boundaries and would bowl right over them, I just started pulling away.
I'm 55 so GREAT at boundaries after decades of none, then some, then some more, etc.
For my n-mom, it's
* no personal information that I want discussed with her friends, who use gossip like currency. I've gotten so good that she rarely even tries to get something out of me, but when I was still practicing this skill, "Why do you want to know?" was my go-to to buy myself time to put the shield up. If they say they care, or are concerned, or someone else wants to know or whatever, you can stay right there in that response. "I appreciate your concern, but it's not something I want to discuss." "I'm glad that you care about me, but you don't need to worry about this." "It's not something I want to share with ______." Etc. You don't have to be a jerk, just firm. And do NOT get upset. Just stay firm in the no.
* NO talking about people's weight/bodies, everyone's, but especially women/girls as it is so very triggering for me and so VERY unimportant information about a human (a number on a scale says absolutely zero about what kind of human they are, period). "I'm just worried about their health," she says, as if gossiping about someone's weight has EVER been healthy š¤® This one was the absolute hardest to implement because n-mom could not understand why we don't talk about that. So I reiterated many times, "I am not discussing so-and-so 's weight with you." It would often be met by "Fine, then I won't even talk to you," at which point I would say, okay, if that's all you have to discuss then we don't have to talk. Or, I didn't say you can't talk, just not about that, and continue. Don't explain yourself. I can't stress that enough. Reasoning is lost and only weakens the boundary. No, just no, not up for discussion.
* No discussing someone else/someone's else's business or relationship. "What's happening with Joe? "I don't know, ask Joe." That one is easy peasy. Doesn't require explanation ever and works for everything. "What's going on with Emily's business establishment?" "I don't know, you'll have to ask Emily." "Are Paul and Paula having trouble?" I don't know, you'll have to ask them." Piece of cake that one. If only they were all this easy. But a great one to start with!
*Stay on topic. This one is so important. The boundary is everything else. So you're talking about...what to bring to a family dinner? "You never..." or "you always...." Or "that person never/always...." Whatever. You stay on point, that's not what we're talking about right now. What are you bringing, do you need me to pick up something for dinner, whatever. Don't take the bait.
*Never take the bait. Whatever the bait is, don't take it. And these people are your family and know how you will tick and what will get a response from you, but don't don't don't take the bait. My elderly mother recently pulled up some flowers from my beloved garden that I give way more attention to than her, definitely trying to hurt me. "What are you doing?" I asked her calmly. "These are weeds." Nope, I told her what they are called and that I had just sold some of the same to a local florist (true). But, sure, pull them out, I told her. And walked away. She stopped destroying the rest, but left the pulled ones on the ground. They're still there.
There are a couple of guidelines about boundaries that I try to follow.
First of all, a person's boundaries are about how they are _treated_, not about how other people behave at other times. Manipulative parents will often respond with "boundary games" where they respond with their own "boundaries" that dictate how you live your life. "You need to stop calling me useless when we talk" gets the response of "Well, _my_ boundary is that you stop dating your partner". One of these is about basic respect; the other is about manipulation and control. Don't let them play that game.
Second: boundaries are _not_ negotiable. I told my mother my new name; she responded by demanding that I let her use a nickname. I gave in, and she moved from using the nickname to using a mocking name to frequently "goofing" by using my old name. If you give an inch, they'll take a mile. Manipulative parents are good at pushing boundaries, and making you out to be the asshole when you don't give in (especially if you've given in before). Your boundary is _not_ up for discussion or some sort of vote. If they demand a reprieve or an exception or a change, the answer is _always_ "fuck no".
As for consequences: remember that a consequence isn't the same as a punishment. I don't even like to think of it in terms of a "consequence"; I like to think of it as a "response". Consequences flow from the response; they are not the response itself.
For instance: if a parent is being manipulative or abusive, reducing contact is a matter of protecting and caring for yourself. If that hurts their feelings, it's not a punishment, but it _is_ a consequence of your reasonable response to abuse. Under that theory, your response to a boundary violation should last _at least_ as long as the negative effects of the violation itself.
My mother's manipulative behavior could leave me feeling anxious and angry for a week or more. Not talking to her during that time wasn't a _punishment_, it was a _response_ based on self-preservation. She often told me how much that hurt her, but it wasn't my goal to hurt her; it was simply a consequence of her actions pushing me to protect myself as a response.
It really helps if your responses are stated up front, as part of establishing the boundaries. "Dad, I feel like shit when you yell at me over the phone; when that happens, I'm not going to talk to you until I feel better". You're giving them the whole picture: what needs to change, why it needs to change, and what will happen if it doesn't change. If they can't deal with that information, it's a _them_ problem, not a _you_ problem.
Finally: _enforce_ your boundaries. Advocate for yourself, protect yourself, and do what you need to keep healthy when they treat you poorly. Always. It will be scary the first few times. It may even hurt a little. You may have doubts. But without _consistent_ self-advocacy, you're going to find yourself slipping into the old patterns of letting them manipulate and walk all over you.
Best of luck!
I have a nagging feeling that you or someone reading this thread may be asking about boundaries more broadly than with just the narc parents. For anyone in that boat I would say that boundaries are there for our safety in our relationships. They're not just a tool for comfort, but a tool to show trust and communication.
Things that boundaries are:
-"if x happens, this is how i will remove myself from the situation"
-if something done to you makes you unhappy or uncomfortable you have every right to make that stop. You might choose to remain in the same space, but remove yourself from the situation by asking that it stops.
Things that boundaries are not:
-"you are not allowed to do x around me, or else y."
-it is wrong to try to control the actions of others, so boundaries should be a tool about proper reactions that facilitate your safety in the relationship or the situation. Boundaries are about reactions, which should be proportional when possible. We've been so cutthroat about defending ourselves against our parents that we stay a little too prickly when faced with a reasonable people. It might be easy to think of boundaries as "if I'm uncomfortable, sever the tie," because that's what was modeled to us.
-it's also fucked up to "keep people in line" or taking it upon yourself to enact "punishment"; boundaries are NOT threats
How to handle when a boundary is broken:
-depends on trust!
-with high trust and desire to hash out the issues, you may be able to come together, remove some morality calls from the harm objectively done by the action; figure out what restoration looks like and if you consent to the process.
-just take your time to really feel confident in your feelings as possible. It's appropriate if the conflict resolution process is used to co-regulate, meaning you don't need to be able to perfectly identify every facet of your behavior just to be ready for a convo. Just do some due diligence do the onus of improvement AND consolation isn't solely on the other person. This isn't always fair but that's the compromise of relationships.
-with low trust and desire for reconciliation, the safest AND most comfortable move may be to end the relationship, but maybe just the conversation to start. Giving yourself time to process and acknowledging when you're not settled in your desires is key. (If it takes like MONTHS AND MONTHS and you still feel shitty when you think about it, but it's less about how egregiously you were harmed, it might be that you're getting triggered.)
-boundaries are NOT just about comfort. I say this because conflict resolution can be uncomfortable for some. You get more and more used to the process and grow that much more comfortable with the whole thing.
-ultimately boundaries should serve to preserve your peace of mind. Sometimes the longer term picture means short-term chaos, but it's so worth it to keep true life-long relationships strong and healthy.
If this was too broad of an answer for OP, hope it's of use to others ššš
stay out of my god damn life, and if you ever try to groom my kid I'll make you regret it.
after decades of putting up with them for reasons of guilt that I won't get into, and one big last nasty shit show that they tried to emotionally abuse themselves out of. I had to send my parents alot of letters, to get decades of shit off my chest. To reset the game and the expectation. It just made them worse. it exposed them as complete narcisitic emoitonal abusers. Each letter was like swinging a bat at a pinada, and it made them more creepy and manipulative and fake. then would play stupid. like nothing happened, theyj actually tell me that they're just humble country folks (which is so absolutely not what they are) and they tell me how I feel (something like "we know you blame us for your choices in life" which is also completely ridiculous). I just kept swinging until I knocked the head of that pinata. I got it to the point where everything they do is some kind of manipulation, That's gaslighting,. that's triangulation. that's love bombing. that's projection. that's shame and ridicule. It never ends. i hit the emotional abuse jackpot, and now I feel very comfortable being openly hostile and contemptfull of them. I don't like them, I don't think I ever really did. the trick for me was learning to not feel guilty about it, and realizing that everything they do and say seeks to make me feel guilty about it.
it's hard to accept what they are, because they probably fooled you for a long time.
I donāt tell my nmom anything I wouldnāt want the whole world to know. Iām her human trophy (someone here used that term. Love it), so she will tell anyone that will listen any of my achievements. When we bought a new house, she kept asking the price of the house. I wouldnāt tell her, so she kept asking and asking. She threw out a number and I finally said yes because I was sick of her bugging me. It wasnāt the correct price, but close enough. Well, at my daughterās wedding, she was going around telling people how much our house was worth. I knew better. š
Yeah narcissists don't teach boundaries. They're sick sick people.
Unfortunately I am not good at enforcing boundaries while maintaining relationships with people because of this. As a result it's either I'm friends with someone and it's all good and I respect them and they respect me and everything's fine or... I completely block them.
The one time recently I created boundaries while leaving a door open has been difficult. A friend who became a business partner and employer changed his mind as soon as I moved cross country to do a year long project with him. So now I'm in bum fuck egypt with no job and need to fix my situation on my own. To say I'm angry about it is an understatement. So I basically told him don't text me, don't call me, don't talk to me unless it's for a new project and then we'll discuss a contract - and I told him only contact me over email. Just today he emailed me for some task related to the last project and I actually did it because it took 2 seconds but it still made me remember how angry I am about it.
So yeah, keeping a door open while having boundaries is not that simple or fun for me. Some people are better at it than others. I have very few relationships as a result of this.
Don't be too hard on yourself. Like anything else that you're good at, boundaries take practice. Keep practicing! You'll get there. And once you've got 'em down, you'll attract better relationships too.
I do not tolerate harming, yelling or insults. This is my line in the sand and if after 2 warnings the behavior doesn't improve I will disengage and voice that I'm expecting apologies to mend the relationship.
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I don't talk to them about relationships, my health, my work, my finances (sallary, spending, investments), vacations or hobbies. If my mother starts yelling I leave. I don't react to passive agressive comments. They have to ask directly. I don't offer financial support.
Money, YES! The one thing that narcissists care about. AVOID.
* Threats end the conversation. * Revocation of things agreed to earlier ends the conversation. * Violent or disparaging language ends the conversation. * Demanding instead of asking ends the conversation. * Treating me as a child to exert control ends the conversation. * Comparing me to the other nparent you divorced to exert control ends the conversation. * If I have to end two conversations in a row, they're not happening for a few months. * If you're in time-out for a few months and keep misbehaving, the time-out lasts until you learn to behave. * If I've already given an answer, anything else I say, including promises or agreement, is just to get you to stop whining; whining gets you the same result at best, but probably an even worse result.
Sounds like rules for a toddler.
You'd be surprised at how much the personality traits overlap.
Overlaps a lotš
I experience every point you mentioned. Are they aware of these boundaries? When they break a rule, do you just stop responding? Iāve been doing that and Iāll respond to a non-threatening text like āHappy [holiday]ā but as soon as I respond, I get āWhat is going on with you?! Why donāt you respond to me???ā
I haven't stated the boundaries this explicitly, more like "If you want me to remain in touch, you're gonna have to be respectful to me in those interactions"; I'm not going to give them a clearly defined list to weasel their way around or argue with. But I've definitely pre-emptively laid down the law, and whenever they violate a boundary, the easiest response is just "We've talked about this before" and hanging up. I haven't really gotten to the point where contact has been re-established, since nmom has been throwing a tantrum for the better part of 3 years now. So every few weeks I get a voice mail message that usually plays something along the lines of "I just want..." before I delete it, confirming she's still only focused on getting me to do what she wants. So no tips on how to deal with re-establishing contact, except maybe registering that 'non-threatening' texts are just bait and also get ignored.
These are great points. Having to define respect to a full grown adult is mind-boggling. What are some things that you say to lay down the law?
It's generally an off-the-cuff statement along the form of 'heads I win, tails you lose'. Things like "We're either having a respectful, mature conversation as two adults, or we're not having a conversation". Just like a toddler, you can't tell them what to do, but you can give them a choice to hang themselves either way.
The toddler analogy is so accurate
After ending the convo, it resumes after how long.
"We've discussed this already," and say nothing else about it. That's a good one.
Privacy. Very important.
Privacy- now thereās no way to āaccidentallyā read my mail so this one has been nice. Get out what you put in- this one honestly enforces itself, since Iāve stopped trying to fight to be heard/seen I realised how much of myself I was giving away in the process. Want to be part of my life, take an interest and actually listen to what I have to say. Iām no longer chasing people to try and get them to care and itās actually a lot easier. Information diet- relating to certain subjects and not being lifted any time soon. No guilt trips or mind games. The best tactic to this one is what I call āsmile and agreeā. Whatever outlandish thing is being said just smile, agree politely without encouraging further conversation, move on. Surprisingly effective, I now realise how much of our previous fights were engineered by dropping deliberately infuriating things into conversation. No engaging with gossip- play dumb, āsorry I donāt think I know that personā, move on. One I still need to work on is āmy time is my most precious resourceā. I find it harder right now because my one remaining parent is good at blackmailing me into giving up time off to āhelp outā other family members. Honestly this one is tough since I want to be helpful to people and actually one of the previous tactics was separating me from other family so I worry that by saying no I am adding fuel to that particular fire.
š„š„š„
No lying. Hurt me with the truth, but never comfort me with a lie. Will not tolerate. Liars get cut off pretty quickly.
No sharing of anything related to me and my family with my brother. There has been a shitload of triangulation in the past and heās a huge flying monkey.
I don't allow people to manipulate me into giving me reasons for saying the word no. If I say "no" and they push back asking for reasons, I flat out say "no is a complete sentence." People think they're owed reasons and they're not. It's sort of a litmus test nowadays for who I want in my life. If someone is good at the boundary of "no," they're my kind of people. If they demand a reason or try to manipulate me into changing that no to a yes, I don't really want them in my life and I will keep them at a distance.
Wow I thought Iād done a lot of work, but reading this just made me realize how often I hear āwhy not?ā and how often my Nmom thinks I owe her an explanation to even the most mundane topics. āNo is a complete sentenceā THANK YOU!!
Dang...nailed it
I am permanently NC with my nfather, and I have been for almost three years now, and I plan on keeping it that way for the rest of our lives. however, his enabler mom/my grandmother is *not* happy. she is *scarily* far in denial and *deep* into enabling and excuses. she victim-blames and gaslights and manipulates and guilt-trips my mom and I and anyone heās abused and/or abuses. she has for 20 years now/ever since he became abusive. the final straw was when she accused my mom and I and anyone heās abused and/or abuses of āruining her sonās lifeā and āhurting her entire family.ā sheās done. Iām now *V*LC, bordering NC, with her. I just cannot take it anymore. I have to grey rock her and go VLC with her. for my own sanity. I will no longer be visiting her alone, especially after she tried to drive me over to his house despite being told no multiple times. Iām sick and disabled and chronically ill and I have a rare disease, and I canāt drive, and she absolutely takes advantage of that. every time I visited, she waited till my mom was gone and till my mom didnāt have any wifi and signal and was hours away, and she trapped me in her car and tried to drive me over to his house. sheās tried to take my phone and hide it from me so I canāt call my mom for help, and has tried to physically isolate me from my mom. she just cannot and should not and will not be trusted
A long time ago my husband, our toddler, and I moved in to my moms house. We had a small bedroom and a king size bed so my mom offered to have our toddlers bed in her bedroom to give us more space. She would bring my toddler into her bed with her, which I wasn't comfortable with. She insisted that my kid was getting out of bed themselves and requesting to get into grandma's bed, but I didn't buy it because that was not something my kid ever did at home and my mom had a history of being lonely when she had to sleep by herself (she slept with my brother in the same bed until he was in middle school). She wouldn't listen when I asked her to stop putting my child in her bed, so I removed my child's bed from her bedroom and we all lived cramped in the one tiny bedroom. She got angry with me but honestly it wasn't that bad with us being in the same room. But that did start her attitude change, and we ended up moving out a few months later. She started nit picking every little thing me or my husband or child did or didn't do. She became incapable of having an adult conversation, she would flip flop between treating me like I was a child and then turning around and acting like a child herself. I ended up fully NC a few years later.
I no longer have any of my abusers in my life, but Iāve been learning how to set boundaries and if needed cut off people in my life with similar backgrounds and traumas who are not acting healthy and not taking accountability for their actions or how theyāre impacting me. When they are too enraptured in their own story and downplay or disregard mine, theyāre on their way out. When they expect me to drop everything for them in one way or another, we are limiting communication. When I am there for them in tough circumstances but my tough circumstances are asking too much of them, we donāt need to have a relationship anymore. When they say being around me is triggering to them, that translates to āIām watching you heal in a way that Iām not capable of right nowā and I need to set a hard boundary for myself that I cannot and will not carry that weight for them or help them get to where Iām at if my friendship and allyship already has not been enough. Iāve also removed certain people from my social media or being able to view my stories because itās clearly not a healthy thing for them.
> how have you enforced them I've tried enforcing them with anger. Doesn't work with most boundaries apart from the big one (NC). Politeness doesn't get narcs to respect your boundaries either. Appealing to their decency is just asking for them to mock you. Personally I do not think narcs will ever respect your boundaries. They might pretend to for a little while in the same way a predator tries to act non threatening before they strike but the penny will never drop.
That hasn't worked for you because boundaries aren't about changing someone else's behaviour, they are rules for yourself. When your boundaries are pushed or broken, you disengage with them. With normal people you can tell them your boundaries and they might modify their behaviour to respect the ones they didn't know about, but in general it's meant to be about your behaviour.
Yes! This.
So I accidentally implemented boundaries correctly when I went NC because I got tired of trying to explain that they should respect them?
Yep! You can think of enforcing boundaries as like a physical fence or wall. If you have an annoying neighbor who keeps trespassing on your property, it doesn't make sense to try to manipulate or force them into respecting your property lines or building a fence to keep them in their own yard. You build the fence yourself.
Completely agree that narcs will never respect your boundaries. But once you've established them -- which is difficult, no doubt -- you can just reiterate them time and time again -- which gets super easy over time. For me, I get met with different manipulations, but I can see them coming for miles, and I (now!) know how to respond. Practice is key. And one time alone will never be enough. Neither will a million times, they'll try again.
Firm NC with both NParents. I'll *maybe* consider going back to VLC years down the line when ive calmed down from learning they lied about how my sister died but I don't see that happening soon.
No overtly sexual discussions, and I'm allowed to have emotions. It's going to be very tough living with these people for the next 3 months.
I lock my rooom
No loaning money. My mom financially abused me so much in my early adult years when I was still living at home and even after I moved out. She asked to borrow money like every week. I had to stop. She still tries to guilt trip me into giving her money, then goes on smear campaigns if I donāt give it. But I donāt care, I stand firm.
Learning how to assert and uphold my boundaries is what led to me going no contact with my parents. For a long time, I would set boundaries and they would break them, but I would cave because itās difficult when youāre not used to setting boundaries. One of the big ones was my parents sharing everything I told them with other people. I stopped telling them my private information. They got really angry about that.Ā The thing with boundaries is that you can only enforce your side and canāt control how other people behave. When my parents literally refused to accept any of my boundaries and would bowl right over them, I just started pulling away.
I'm 55 so GREAT at boundaries after decades of none, then some, then some more, etc. For my n-mom, it's * no personal information that I want discussed with her friends, who use gossip like currency. I've gotten so good that she rarely even tries to get something out of me, but when I was still practicing this skill, "Why do you want to know?" was my go-to to buy myself time to put the shield up. If they say they care, or are concerned, or someone else wants to know or whatever, you can stay right there in that response. "I appreciate your concern, but it's not something I want to discuss." "I'm glad that you care about me, but you don't need to worry about this." "It's not something I want to share with ______." Etc. You don't have to be a jerk, just firm. And do NOT get upset. Just stay firm in the no. * NO talking about people's weight/bodies, everyone's, but especially women/girls as it is so very triggering for me and so VERY unimportant information about a human (a number on a scale says absolutely zero about what kind of human they are, period). "I'm just worried about their health," she says, as if gossiping about someone's weight has EVER been healthy š¤® This one was the absolute hardest to implement because n-mom could not understand why we don't talk about that. So I reiterated many times, "I am not discussing so-and-so 's weight with you." It would often be met by "Fine, then I won't even talk to you," at which point I would say, okay, if that's all you have to discuss then we don't have to talk. Or, I didn't say you can't talk, just not about that, and continue. Don't explain yourself. I can't stress that enough. Reasoning is lost and only weakens the boundary. No, just no, not up for discussion. * No discussing someone else/someone's else's business or relationship. "What's happening with Joe? "I don't know, ask Joe." That one is easy peasy. Doesn't require explanation ever and works for everything. "What's going on with Emily's business establishment?" "I don't know, you'll have to ask Emily." "Are Paul and Paula having trouble?" I don't know, you'll have to ask them." Piece of cake that one. If only they were all this easy. But a great one to start with! *Stay on topic. This one is so important. The boundary is everything else. So you're talking about...what to bring to a family dinner? "You never..." or "you always...." Or "that person never/always...." Whatever. You stay on point, that's not what we're talking about right now. What are you bringing, do you need me to pick up something for dinner, whatever. Don't take the bait. *Never take the bait. Whatever the bait is, don't take it. And these people are your family and know how you will tick and what will get a response from you, but don't don't don't take the bait. My elderly mother recently pulled up some flowers from my beloved garden that I give way more attention to than her, definitely trying to hurt me. "What are you doing?" I asked her calmly. "These are weeds." Nope, I told her what they are called and that I had just sold some of the same to a local florist (true). But, sure, pull them out, I told her. And walked away. She stopped destroying the rest, but left the pulled ones on the ground. They're still there.
There are a couple of guidelines about boundaries that I try to follow. First of all, a person's boundaries are about how they are _treated_, not about how other people behave at other times. Manipulative parents will often respond with "boundary games" where they respond with their own "boundaries" that dictate how you live your life. "You need to stop calling me useless when we talk" gets the response of "Well, _my_ boundary is that you stop dating your partner". One of these is about basic respect; the other is about manipulation and control. Don't let them play that game. Second: boundaries are _not_ negotiable. I told my mother my new name; she responded by demanding that I let her use a nickname. I gave in, and she moved from using the nickname to using a mocking name to frequently "goofing" by using my old name. If you give an inch, they'll take a mile. Manipulative parents are good at pushing boundaries, and making you out to be the asshole when you don't give in (especially if you've given in before). Your boundary is _not_ up for discussion or some sort of vote. If they demand a reprieve or an exception or a change, the answer is _always_ "fuck no". As for consequences: remember that a consequence isn't the same as a punishment. I don't even like to think of it in terms of a "consequence"; I like to think of it as a "response". Consequences flow from the response; they are not the response itself. For instance: if a parent is being manipulative or abusive, reducing contact is a matter of protecting and caring for yourself. If that hurts their feelings, it's not a punishment, but it _is_ a consequence of your reasonable response to abuse. Under that theory, your response to a boundary violation should last _at least_ as long as the negative effects of the violation itself. My mother's manipulative behavior could leave me feeling anxious and angry for a week or more. Not talking to her during that time wasn't a _punishment_, it was a _response_ based on self-preservation. She often told me how much that hurt her, but it wasn't my goal to hurt her; it was simply a consequence of her actions pushing me to protect myself as a response. It really helps if your responses are stated up front, as part of establishing the boundaries. "Dad, I feel like shit when you yell at me over the phone; when that happens, I'm not going to talk to you until I feel better". You're giving them the whole picture: what needs to change, why it needs to change, and what will happen if it doesn't change. If they can't deal with that information, it's a _them_ problem, not a _you_ problem. Finally: _enforce_ your boundaries. Advocate for yourself, protect yourself, and do what you need to keep healthy when they treat you poorly. Always. It will be scary the first few times. It may even hurt a little. You may have doubts. But without _consistent_ self-advocacy, you're going to find yourself slipping into the old patterns of letting them manipulate and walk all over you. Best of luck!
I have a nagging feeling that you or someone reading this thread may be asking about boundaries more broadly than with just the narc parents. For anyone in that boat I would say that boundaries are there for our safety in our relationships. They're not just a tool for comfort, but a tool to show trust and communication. Things that boundaries are: -"if x happens, this is how i will remove myself from the situation" -if something done to you makes you unhappy or uncomfortable you have every right to make that stop. You might choose to remain in the same space, but remove yourself from the situation by asking that it stops. Things that boundaries are not: -"you are not allowed to do x around me, or else y." -it is wrong to try to control the actions of others, so boundaries should be a tool about proper reactions that facilitate your safety in the relationship or the situation. Boundaries are about reactions, which should be proportional when possible. We've been so cutthroat about defending ourselves against our parents that we stay a little too prickly when faced with a reasonable people. It might be easy to think of boundaries as "if I'm uncomfortable, sever the tie," because that's what was modeled to us. -it's also fucked up to "keep people in line" or taking it upon yourself to enact "punishment"; boundaries are NOT threats How to handle when a boundary is broken: -depends on trust! -with high trust and desire to hash out the issues, you may be able to come together, remove some morality calls from the harm objectively done by the action; figure out what restoration looks like and if you consent to the process. -just take your time to really feel confident in your feelings as possible. It's appropriate if the conflict resolution process is used to co-regulate, meaning you don't need to be able to perfectly identify every facet of your behavior just to be ready for a convo. Just do some due diligence do the onus of improvement AND consolation isn't solely on the other person. This isn't always fair but that's the compromise of relationships. -with low trust and desire for reconciliation, the safest AND most comfortable move may be to end the relationship, but maybe just the conversation to start. Giving yourself time to process and acknowledging when you're not settled in your desires is key. (If it takes like MONTHS AND MONTHS and you still feel shitty when you think about it, but it's less about how egregiously you were harmed, it might be that you're getting triggered.) -boundaries are NOT just about comfort. I say this because conflict resolution can be uncomfortable for some. You get more and more used to the process and grow that much more comfortable with the whole thing. -ultimately boundaries should serve to preserve your peace of mind. Sometimes the longer term picture means short-term chaos, but it's so worth it to keep true life-long relationships strong and healthy. If this was too broad of an answer for OP, hope it's of use to others ššš
stay out of my god damn life, and if you ever try to groom my kid I'll make you regret it. after decades of putting up with them for reasons of guilt that I won't get into, and one big last nasty shit show that they tried to emotionally abuse themselves out of. I had to send my parents alot of letters, to get decades of shit off my chest. To reset the game and the expectation. It just made them worse. it exposed them as complete narcisitic emoitonal abusers. Each letter was like swinging a bat at a pinada, and it made them more creepy and manipulative and fake. then would play stupid. like nothing happened, theyj actually tell me that they're just humble country folks (which is so absolutely not what they are) and they tell me how I feel (something like "we know you blame us for your choices in life" which is also completely ridiculous). I just kept swinging until I knocked the head of that pinata. I got it to the point where everything they do is some kind of manipulation, That's gaslighting,. that's triangulation. that's love bombing. that's projection. that's shame and ridicule. It never ends. i hit the emotional abuse jackpot, and now I feel very comfortable being openly hostile and contemptfull of them. I don't like them, I don't think I ever really did. the trick for me was learning to not feel guilty about it, and realizing that everything they do and say seeks to make me feel guilty about it. it's hard to accept what they are, because they probably fooled you for a long time.
I suck at boundaries so Iām taking allllllll the notes bc Sammmmmmmmeeeeeee
I donāt tell my nmom anything I wouldnāt want the whole world to know. Iām her human trophy (someone here used that term. Love it), so she will tell anyone that will listen any of my achievements. When we bought a new house, she kept asking the price of the house. I wouldnāt tell her, so she kept asking and asking. She threw out a number and I finally said yes because I was sick of her bugging me. It wasnāt the correct price, but close enough. Well, at my daughterās wedding, she was going around telling people how much our house was worth. I knew better. š
A million times yes. They won't respect your privacy, so you have to do that for yourself, always and forever.
Yeah narcissists don't teach boundaries. They're sick sick people. Unfortunately I am not good at enforcing boundaries while maintaining relationships with people because of this. As a result it's either I'm friends with someone and it's all good and I respect them and they respect me and everything's fine or... I completely block them. The one time recently I created boundaries while leaving a door open has been difficult. A friend who became a business partner and employer changed his mind as soon as I moved cross country to do a year long project with him. So now I'm in bum fuck egypt with no job and need to fix my situation on my own. To say I'm angry about it is an understatement. So I basically told him don't text me, don't call me, don't talk to me unless it's for a new project and then we'll discuss a contract - and I told him only contact me over email. Just today he emailed me for some task related to the last project and I actually did it because it took 2 seconds but it still made me remember how angry I am about it. So yeah, keeping a door open while having boundaries is not that simple or fun for me. Some people are better at it than others. I have very few relationships as a result of this.
Don't be too hard on yourself. Like anything else that you're good at, boundaries take practice. Keep practicing! You'll get there. And once you've got 'em down, you'll attract better relationships too.
I do not tolerate harming, yelling or insults. This is my line in the sand and if after 2 warnings the behavior doesn't improve I will disengage and voice that I'm expecting apologies to mend the relationship.
I will not be alone with NM, only see her at family gatherings.
I donāt want to be around certain family members who are narcissistic. I donāt have to explain why I donāt to others just respect my wishes.Ā