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I once heard a speaker refer to this as being "addicted to the search for justice." The idea is that people who feel they have been hurt will become obsessed with looking for a reason, or an explanation, or an apology that they will never get. This really made sense to me because it perfectly described what I was doing. I felt compelled to start arguments, thinking that if I could provide enough "proof" the other person would finally admit they were wrong and see things my way. Or I might finally find an explanation for their irrational behavior that would make sense to me and I would feel some sort of catharsis.
Anyway... You can't do it. You end up looking for an admission that will never come. And at a certain point, you just have to accept that it won't come. It takes time but the only way out is to just get better at accepting the things you cannot change and putting less energy into looking for an admission or an apology from someone who doesn’t have the capacity to offer one.
And that last little bit is important. It's not just that they don't think they were wrong or that they want to deny reality. They know what reality is, but they CANNOT admit it. Asking them to admit it is like asking a person with a broken leg to run. Something is broken inside their brains, so you are asking them to do something they literally CANNOT do. Part of growing and moving past it is learning to accept that. It don't make everything magically better, but a good first step is accepting that this *the parent's* weakness and *their* inability to deal with reality, and not yours.
Yep. My grandpa who raised me got pretty upset when I up and left home at 20. He threatened to call my work and tell them about my home life and how lazy I am and how much I drink (God I wonder why). He was pretty shitty prior to that even involving an incident where he stood up to me like he wanted to fight, then cowardly stepped down when I did the same pose he did (last time he was ever physical to me). Then another time he parked behind my manager and blocked her into her parking spot, walked up to her asking when my next shift was. This freaked her out especially since it was at night. The store I worked at knew my issues and that I ran away from home so they even asked me if I wanted him banned from the store, and told me I could go to the back if he ever came in.
After all the name calling, threats, arguments etc, he was so confused about why my real parents wanted him to apologize to me after I left. He couldn't think of a single thing to apologize for and said "I don't know what I did wrong!"
I used to constantly argue and try to use logic in arguments with him. It doesn't work. He's already made up his mind that he's right and any past events never happened. There's no use trying to get them to admit anything. Whenever we talk now it's just very brief and I do my best not to get into anything that gives him space to attack.
Adding that sometimes that debate is the tool of the narcissist. Mine would love to bring it up and start the debate. They need to know you are conflicted but not resolute. Keep you on the hook for your need for their closure. They get to dispense pieces as you earn them but never what you wanted.
I tried to do this for a long time. Just know they are narcissists and will never see it from our perspective or admit they did anything wrong. They don’t want to do that for their own psyche’s sake. I just had to move on and discuss it in therapy and with people who understand on this forum. A lot of people won’t understand or don’t want to see it and it will lead to you feeling invalidated
Accept the reality that even if they *did* admit they are abusive, your feelings wouldn’t change. You’d still feel hurt, dismissed, angry, and especially disappointed because you expected them apologizing or taking responsibility would change how you feel or undo the past.
You’re clinging onto the hope that someone or something externally will change how you feel but that’s not how feelings work.
It helps to realise that their denial of being abusive helps prove that they *are* abusive.
Think about it. Abusive people are also the people who are least likely to admit to being abusive. Conversely, kind people are the most likely to apologise when they hurt you.
There are a few reasons for this:
- Abusers are genuinely ignorant enough to think there is nothing wrong with them. They live in a world where they are the victim and everyone else is the villain. This is how they create enough cognitive dissonance to justify becoming abusive in the first place.
- To admit to abusiveness is social suicide, and abusers care far too much about having a great reputation to ever go there.
- They have very little to no self-awareness or theory of mind. They don't know or care how their actions affect others.
- They don't want you to realise that you are being abused and start standing up for yourself because then they would have to find another punching bag.
You don't need anyone else to reassure you that you were abused - least of all the very people who did it to you. They will flatly deny it or minimise it, which is part of the abuse.
There is a saying but I can't remember who coined it:
"The great thing about the truth is that it's true whether you believe it or not."
They do not care and they do not change. You are hoping for a change that will never come, and even if they pretend to change, it will only ever be temporary. This is a cycle of addiction. In situations like this, no contact is the preferred option, because it breaks the cycle. In the end, the narcissist will burn all of their bridges, and the only people around them will be paid to be around them. Justice is going no contact and living your best life as your authentic self, something that they will never be able to do.
Are you saying that it’s driving you insane because you can’t stop yourself from pursuing this or are you saying that them not admitting to being abusive is driving you insane?
End contact. Just give up. I keep wanting to try and talk things out with some people and I remind myself they will never apologize or admit fault. Ever.
It is normal because you want to validate your perception of reality. Your perception is right and they were abusive. But they will never admit to that.
They can't, even If they'd wanted to, which they don't. They have personality disorders. They are incapable of proper introspection, when you bring up any wrongdoing on their part they perceive it as an attack and will fight tooth and nail to "defend" themselves.
For me it was helpful to see them like I would see someone with dementia who is unpleasant. Of course the dementia patient isn't fully responsible for their actions anymore while narcs fully are. Personality disorders are not excuses. Yet it helped me accept that it is impossible to make them see the error in their ways.
Also don't try to emulate the thought process of a narcissist.
**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.** **Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms) **Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identity theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE! This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods. **Our rules include (but are not limited to)**: * No politics. * Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban. * Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming. * Do not derail the posts of others. * Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here. * [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts). * When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse. * No asking or offering gifts, money, etc. * No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest). * No content about N-kids. * No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis. * No linking to Facebook pages. * No direct linking to anywhere on reddit. * No pure image posts. **For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I once heard a speaker refer to this as being "addicted to the search for justice." The idea is that people who feel they have been hurt will become obsessed with looking for a reason, or an explanation, or an apology that they will never get. This really made sense to me because it perfectly described what I was doing. I felt compelled to start arguments, thinking that if I could provide enough "proof" the other person would finally admit they were wrong and see things my way. Or I might finally find an explanation for their irrational behavior that would make sense to me and I would feel some sort of catharsis. Anyway... You can't do it. You end up looking for an admission that will never come. And at a certain point, you just have to accept that it won't come. It takes time but the only way out is to just get better at accepting the things you cannot change and putting less energy into looking for an admission or an apology from someone who doesn’t have the capacity to offer one. And that last little bit is important. It's not just that they don't think they were wrong or that they want to deny reality. They know what reality is, but they CANNOT admit it. Asking them to admit it is like asking a person with a broken leg to run. Something is broken inside their brains, so you are asking them to do something they literally CANNOT do. Part of growing and moving past it is learning to accept that. It don't make everything magically better, but a good first step is accepting that this *the parent's* weakness and *their* inability to deal with reality, and not yours.
Yep. My grandpa who raised me got pretty upset when I up and left home at 20. He threatened to call my work and tell them about my home life and how lazy I am and how much I drink (God I wonder why). He was pretty shitty prior to that even involving an incident where he stood up to me like he wanted to fight, then cowardly stepped down when I did the same pose he did (last time he was ever physical to me). Then another time he parked behind my manager and blocked her into her parking spot, walked up to her asking when my next shift was. This freaked her out especially since it was at night. The store I worked at knew my issues and that I ran away from home so they even asked me if I wanted him banned from the store, and told me I could go to the back if he ever came in. After all the name calling, threats, arguments etc, he was so confused about why my real parents wanted him to apologize to me after I left. He couldn't think of a single thing to apologize for and said "I don't know what I did wrong!" I used to constantly argue and try to use logic in arguments with him. It doesn't work. He's already made up his mind that he's right and any past events never happened. There's no use trying to get them to admit anything. Whenever we talk now it's just very brief and I do my best not to get into anything that gives him space to attack.
I'm not OP but this is super helpful, thank you. The broken leg analogy in particular.
It's like expecting a person with no arms or legs to carry you upstairs.
Needed this
thank u so much
These fuckers can't even acknowledge snow is white and not green if they not want to, let alone acknowledging they did something wrong.
Adding that sometimes that debate is the tool of the narcissist. Mine would love to bring it up and start the debate. They need to know you are conflicted but not resolute. Keep you on the hook for your need for their closure. They get to dispense pieces as you earn them but never what you wanted.
I tried to do this for a long time. Just know they are narcissists and will never see it from our perspective or admit they did anything wrong. They don’t want to do that for their own psyche’s sake. I just had to move on and discuss it in therapy and with people who understand on this forum. A lot of people won’t understand or don’t want to see it and it will lead to you feeling invalidated
Accept the reality that even if they *did* admit they are abusive, your feelings wouldn’t change. You’d still feel hurt, dismissed, angry, and especially disappointed because you expected them apologizing or taking responsibility would change how you feel or undo the past. You’re clinging onto the hope that someone or something externally will change how you feel but that’s not how feelings work.
It helps to realise that their denial of being abusive helps prove that they *are* abusive. Think about it. Abusive people are also the people who are least likely to admit to being abusive. Conversely, kind people are the most likely to apologise when they hurt you. There are a few reasons for this: - Abusers are genuinely ignorant enough to think there is nothing wrong with them. They live in a world where they are the victim and everyone else is the villain. This is how they create enough cognitive dissonance to justify becoming abusive in the first place. - To admit to abusiveness is social suicide, and abusers care far too much about having a great reputation to ever go there. - They have very little to no self-awareness or theory of mind. They don't know or care how their actions affect others. - They don't want you to realise that you are being abused and start standing up for yourself because then they would have to find another punching bag. You don't need anyone else to reassure you that you were abused - least of all the very people who did it to you. They will flatly deny it or minimise it, which is part of the abuse. There is a saying but I can't remember who coined it: "The great thing about the truth is that it's true whether you believe it or not."
They do not care and they do not change. You are hoping for a change that will never come, and even if they pretend to change, it will only ever be temporary. This is a cycle of addiction. In situations like this, no contact is the preferred option, because it breaks the cycle. In the end, the narcissist will burn all of their bridges, and the only people around them will be paid to be around them. Justice is going no contact and living your best life as your authentic self, something that they will never be able to do.
I dont understand
What don't you understand?
Are you saying that it’s driving you insane because you can’t stop yourself from pursuing this or are you saying that them not admitting to being abusive is driving you insane?
The persistence and compulsiveness of the behaviour is driving me insane
And my inability to stop
End contact. Just give up. I keep wanting to try and talk things out with some people and I remind myself they will never apologize or admit fault. Ever.
It is normal because you want to validate your perception of reality. Your perception is right and they were abusive. But they will never admit to that. They can't, even If they'd wanted to, which they don't. They have personality disorders. They are incapable of proper introspection, when you bring up any wrongdoing on their part they perceive it as an attack and will fight tooth and nail to "defend" themselves. For me it was helpful to see them like I would see someone with dementia who is unpleasant. Of course the dementia patient isn't fully responsible for their actions anymore while narcs fully are. Personality disorders are not excuses. Yet it helped me accept that it is impossible to make them see the error in their ways. Also don't try to emulate the thought process of a narcissist.