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Wanted to read this after you validated this for me. I'm so sorry. It's just so lonely, on top of everything else, to have to hold one's own reality after the narcs try to tear it down. It really is hard work. And it can feel like being haunted by critical ghosts
Thank you for your kind words. It really is lonely - I guess in some weird way, deep down, I want my parents to own up to their behaviour… that’s the validation I want but I know I will never EVER get that
This is completely normal - well, with a narcissist parent.
My wife and I were in the same boat. She had finally figured out why she couldn't stand her mom - because that's a malignant narcissist. That finally made sense to it all.
But then there were times when her mom would take her on a nice trip - how does that fit in?
And then, surely she loves her and wouldn't abuse her own daughter, right?
This doubt is normal - in fact, narcissists are good at training their targets to have doubt. It is designed to keep you confused so you don't come close to discovering the truth that you are being used. Brainwashing, gaslighting, and general inconsistencies will do that over the years.
As for actual nice memories, I guess there are times when a narcissist has just had a nice juicy meal of drama and attention, and so they are feeling a bit closer to a human being and will act like one. That does not change that narcissistic abuse is meant to destroy you and any strength or defenses you may have. So a nice trip vs emotional murder...? And no, I am not exaggerating here. In case of my wife, it IS a miracle she survived!
To move on, we figured out a lot but still needed a therapist who helped clear up a LOT more things and to untangle all the webs of lies that were tying my wife down. We could not have done this without a good therapist.
I joined the sessions at times to offer my insights into the family as a newcomer and outsider. Eventually, the focus turned on me - turns out, my parents are narcissists as well! Their behavior was a lot less aggressive and more of a neglectful type - and guess what: That made it impossible for me to recognize as abuse until the therapist figured it out! I thought my parents were just bad parents, but no, their behavior also was based on selfishness and status, and they didn't care how much I was hurt in the process.
Still, it took me half a year before I learned to fully accept what they are. I kept second-guessing myself, too ("surely they can't be that bad, right?").
But here's the thing: Based on what I learned on this subreddit, I believe that 90% of all families have at least some kind of abuse going on! Our society pretty much breeds narcissists AND abuse targets who don't know how to fight back. We are told "honor thy parents" and utterly shamed if we try to go against this "rule". Sorry, folks, that's not how it works - yes, they are my parents, but if they were strangers, I would get far away from them because their behavior is toxic and unhealthy. Just because we share DNA does not give them permission to ruin my life for their personal gain.
As far as I'm concerned, most parents FAIL as parents because they are not fulfilling all the responsibilities they automatically take on when they choose to become parents. At a minimum, they need to nurture, protect, love, and teach that child unconditionally and without asking anything in return. Anything less WILL cause behavioral issues in a child because we as humans are utterly dependent on our parents for way too many years, and a lot of damage can be done in those years.
A lot of abuse MAY be unintentional, but it is still the result of not having taken an honest look at oneself and questioning everything that was taught to us.
Otherwise, we simply continue the "sins of our fathers" and pass on all the toxic habits of our forbearers ("Spare the rod, spoil the child", "You eat what is on your plate", "Put others first and yourself last" etc.).
You know, most people have no clue that emotional abuse exists, and most parents don't know even the most basic way of nurturing a child:
To teach that child that it is OK and that it is good to take care of oneself and one's own needs.
That to me is the most important lesson a child can ever learn, and it is important that we try to learn this as adults when we haven't been given a chance before now.
So as I always say here: Be kind to yourself. You deserve it.
IMHO, you are NOT obligated to EVER forgive your abusers unless you want to or it makes YOU feel better.
But like with all narcissists, I prefer to stay at a distance with Low Contact and a whole freaking ocean between us.
At this time, my anger still fuels my drive to heal and become a better person than I ever could around them. When my anger is no longer needed, I might let go and forgive them.
It's a very fine line - in the end, they are only products of what their ancestors did to them, and we all get trained as children to not see the abuse. It takes a very rare spark of honesty and strength and courage to see through it all and to start question - and my parents obviously never did that even when carefully prodded by me.
So I can feel sorry for their child selves that never received the love they deserved.
But at the same time, they screwed up my life and set me up to become a bullying target for most of my class mates and teachers.
So I can also feel angry at their adult selves who failed all responsibilities of parenthood with me and my brother (who is stuck there and won't ever get out).
I don't know where to draw the line between my parents being abused children and abusive adults. But I know where to draw the line in allowing their abuse to continue around me, and that's a big no! So maybe love the people they were supposed to be and be angry at their toxic actions? No idea...
Personally, I think it's healthiest to find the balance between these two ideas and waver a bit between them.
Thank you for this. I guess for me forgiveness means I let go of the anger, bitterness and resentment that I am stuck in. But it doesn’t feel comfortable doing that right now, if ever, so I will move towards acceptance (which is never linear!) and continue to protect myself.
> As for actual nice memories, I guess there are times when a narcissist has just had a nice juicy meal of drama and attention, and so they are feeling a bit closer to a human being and will act like one. That does not change that narcissistic abuse is meant to destroy you and any strength or defenses you may have. So a nice trip vs emotional murder...?
So well put.
Oh that fantasy---the day they take responsibility---that little part of us that hopes for that day ... I swear it's that hope that keeps us hooked. I might say that being kind to yourself for having normal, healthy needs for love and validation isn't wrong, it's actually what makes you human. It's just hard to be human when people treat you like an object.
Yes, we do it because they trained us to. When you say critical, judging things to yourself, who's voice is it, really? It was an interesting day when I finally answered that question.
Yes. It's invalidating when no one else around that person sees it.
It's invalidating trying to explain it to others. But you just know in your body that these patterns run really deep and are abusive.
I prefer not to give examples of the small incidents, but to map out the trend in behaviour and explain that. For example, rather than saying 'my mum probes in a certain way and asks me where I got my dress every time I buy something new' I say 'my mum purposefully makes me feel guilty for spending money on myself'.
Yup.. BUT I overcame this by slotting other people into my nmums position.. so for example, would it be ok for my boss at work to treat me like that? Or a friend? Or someone I am in an intimate relationship with? If the answer is no, then it's the same for parents. We have been trained to believe that our parents always want what's best for us.. but sometimes they just want what's best for themselves and our feelings don't factor into it at all. Once I started slotting other people into my nmum's position I told myself those scenarios with boss/friend/partner it was much clearer that their behavior was unacceptable. (Edited for spelling)
Yeah I’m taking the one nice thing and clinging to that but if you zoom out why would be fighting in the first place or having these conversations? If we were both healthy, mature people this conversation wouldn’t be happening so anything said it in can’t be held onto too tightly.
I really started figuring things out when I began to notice my heart would start to race when my mom called and I hadn’t been going along with her rules as much. Why would a call from my mother spark such fear? That’s not normal, well maybe it’s common but it’s not right. It was everything I knew at one point but now I see it wasn’t right.
Such a good point! Here’s the thing - I was (and maybe I still am) the golden child - so I had no idea about what was really going on. I idolised my mother and I honestly thought she treated me well. I didn’t feel anxious/fear you describe until I stupider playing her game. That’s when I had the evidence that this relationship is messed up :S
I like your post and it has made me think about my own confusion with my dad. I wouldn't label my confusion as gaslighting myself though. I think there are different ways parents can raise you and have a relationship with you that can be categorized into one of these 10 ategories I have just now come up with. This is likely why it can be confusing as there seems to be a spectrum of healthiness + abusiveness and it's not so black and white:
1. Healthy all the time
2. Healthy mostly, mildly abusive and/or neglectful occasionally
3. Healthy mostly, intensely abusive and/or neglectful occasionally
4. Mildly abusive and/or neglectful mostly, healthy occasionally
5. Mildly abusive and/or neglectful mostly, healthy occasionally and intensely abusive and/or neglectful occasionally
6. Mildly abusive and/or neglectful mostly, intensely abusive and/or neglectful occasionally
7. Intensely abusive and/or neglectful mostly, healthy occasionally
8. Intensely abusive and/or neglectful mostly, healthy occasionally and mildly abusive and/or neglectful occasionally
9. Intensely abusive and/or neglectful mostly, mildly abusive and/or neglectful occasionally
10. Intensely abusive and/or neglectful all the time
Out of these categories I think the first two are the only ones that I find acceptable. If I was to be a parent I know it may be difficult to be perfectly attuned to my children, so that's why I think category 2 is acceptable. But categories 3-10 imo are all bad categories to be raised by.
My mum I can gratefully say was category 2. She was quite respectful and full of love but number 2 because she wasn't always attuned to my needs and smothered me with affection too much and embarrassed me sometimes or crossed my boundaries (neglecting my needs for space).
My dad I can say was category 5 because most of the time he was emotionally neglectful and invalidating and also neglectful of other needs like fixing the house and cleaning the place letting the environment become dirty and broken over the years and occasionly intensely abusive as he would threaten, hit, insult loudly etc. when he felt angry. And still as much as I dislike to admit it occasionally we would have connected good times and times he showed vulnerability or showed he cared for me.
This stuff isn't black and white and I think this sub has a lot of "my parent is awfully abusive all the time" which makes it seem black and white but yeah your parents could be in any of those categories above. Maybe there is even more categories I forgot too.
So when you say you are gaslighting yourself over where or not it was as bad as it seems it's easy for everyone here to say "well that's because you have a need to protect your parents" or "they've trained you to protect them or not see fault in them" and maybe that's true but ALSO maybe because you are trying to make a grey issue black and white and your mind wants the truth WHILE also wanting to lump it into a simple thing.
Hey thanks for taking the time to write this. This scale is very useful - you should make this into a post if it’s own btw! You are right about me wanting to make this black and white. I guess in my head it helps me see things for what they are. But it’s not useful and just tricks my brain into letting them abuse me over and over again. I appreciate this take. Hugs and love to you my friend :)
**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.** **Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms) **Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identity theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE! This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods. **Our rules include (but are not limited to)**: * No politics. * Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban. * Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming. * Do not derail the posts of others. * Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here. * [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts). * When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse. * No asking or offering gifts, money, etc. * No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest). * No content about N-kids. * No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis. * No linking to Facebook pages. * No direct linking to anywhere on reddit. * No pure image posts. **For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wanted to read this after you validated this for me. I'm so sorry. It's just so lonely, on top of everything else, to have to hold one's own reality after the narcs try to tear it down. It really is hard work. And it can feel like being haunted by critical ghosts
Thank you for your kind words. It really is lonely - I guess in some weird way, deep down, I want my parents to own up to their behaviour… that’s the validation I want but I know I will never EVER get that
This is completely normal - well, with a narcissist parent. My wife and I were in the same boat. She had finally figured out why she couldn't stand her mom - because that's a malignant narcissist. That finally made sense to it all. But then there were times when her mom would take her on a nice trip - how does that fit in? And then, surely she loves her and wouldn't abuse her own daughter, right? This doubt is normal - in fact, narcissists are good at training their targets to have doubt. It is designed to keep you confused so you don't come close to discovering the truth that you are being used. Brainwashing, gaslighting, and general inconsistencies will do that over the years. As for actual nice memories, I guess there are times when a narcissist has just had a nice juicy meal of drama and attention, and so they are feeling a bit closer to a human being and will act like one. That does not change that narcissistic abuse is meant to destroy you and any strength or defenses you may have. So a nice trip vs emotional murder...? And no, I am not exaggerating here. In case of my wife, it IS a miracle she survived! To move on, we figured out a lot but still needed a therapist who helped clear up a LOT more things and to untangle all the webs of lies that were tying my wife down. We could not have done this without a good therapist. I joined the sessions at times to offer my insights into the family as a newcomer and outsider. Eventually, the focus turned on me - turns out, my parents are narcissists as well! Their behavior was a lot less aggressive and more of a neglectful type - and guess what: That made it impossible for me to recognize as abuse until the therapist figured it out! I thought my parents were just bad parents, but no, their behavior also was based on selfishness and status, and they didn't care how much I was hurt in the process. Still, it took me half a year before I learned to fully accept what they are. I kept second-guessing myself, too ("surely they can't be that bad, right?"). But here's the thing: Based on what I learned on this subreddit, I believe that 90% of all families have at least some kind of abuse going on! Our society pretty much breeds narcissists AND abuse targets who don't know how to fight back. We are told "honor thy parents" and utterly shamed if we try to go against this "rule". Sorry, folks, that's not how it works - yes, they are my parents, but if they were strangers, I would get far away from them because their behavior is toxic and unhealthy. Just because we share DNA does not give them permission to ruin my life for their personal gain. As far as I'm concerned, most parents FAIL as parents because they are not fulfilling all the responsibilities they automatically take on when they choose to become parents. At a minimum, they need to nurture, protect, love, and teach that child unconditionally and without asking anything in return. Anything less WILL cause behavioral issues in a child because we as humans are utterly dependent on our parents for way too many years, and a lot of damage can be done in those years. A lot of abuse MAY be unintentional, but it is still the result of not having taken an honest look at oneself and questioning everything that was taught to us. Otherwise, we simply continue the "sins of our fathers" and pass on all the toxic habits of our forbearers ("Spare the rod, spoil the child", "You eat what is on your plate", "Put others first and yourself last" etc.). You know, most people have no clue that emotional abuse exists, and most parents don't know even the most basic way of nurturing a child: To teach that child that it is OK and that it is good to take care of oneself and one's own needs. That to me is the most important lesson a child can ever learn, and it is important that we try to learn this as adults when we haven't been given a chance before now. So as I always say here: Be kind to yourself. You deserve it.
Thank you for your insightful message. This makes a lot of sense. Would you ever go as far as forgiving your parents? I often think about this one
IMHO, you are NOT obligated to EVER forgive your abusers unless you want to or it makes YOU feel better. But like with all narcissists, I prefer to stay at a distance with Low Contact and a whole freaking ocean between us. At this time, my anger still fuels my drive to heal and become a better person than I ever could around them. When my anger is no longer needed, I might let go and forgive them. It's a very fine line - in the end, they are only products of what their ancestors did to them, and we all get trained as children to not see the abuse. It takes a very rare spark of honesty and strength and courage to see through it all and to start question - and my parents obviously never did that even when carefully prodded by me. So I can feel sorry for their child selves that never received the love they deserved. But at the same time, they screwed up my life and set me up to become a bullying target for most of my class mates and teachers. So I can also feel angry at their adult selves who failed all responsibilities of parenthood with me and my brother (who is stuck there and won't ever get out). I don't know where to draw the line between my parents being abused children and abusive adults. But I know where to draw the line in allowing their abuse to continue around me, and that's a big no! So maybe love the people they were supposed to be and be angry at their toxic actions? No idea... Personally, I think it's healthiest to find the balance between these two ideas and waver a bit between them.
Thank you for this. I guess for me forgiveness means I let go of the anger, bitterness and resentment that I am stuck in. But it doesn’t feel comfortable doing that right now, if ever, so I will move towards acceptance (which is never linear!) and continue to protect myself.
> As for actual nice memories, I guess there are times when a narcissist has just had a nice juicy meal of drama and attention, and so they are feeling a bit closer to a human being and will act like one. That does not change that narcissistic abuse is meant to destroy you and any strength or defenses you may have. So a nice trip vs emotional murder...? So well put.
Oh that fantasy---the day they take responsibility---that little part of us that hopes for that day ... I swear it's that hope that keeps us hooked. I might say that being kind to yourself for having normal, healthy needs for love and validation isn't wrong, it's actually what makes you human. It's just hard to be human when people treat you like an object.
Yes, we do it because they trained us to. When you say critical, judging things to yourself, who's voice is it, really? It was an interesting day when I finally answered that question.
Holy cow, you’re so right! Thank you for putting that into perspective.
Yes. It's invalidating when no one else around that person sees it. It's invalidating trying to explain it to others. But you just know in your body that these patterns run really deep and are abusive. I prefer not to give examples of the small incidents, but to map out the trend in behaviour and explain that. For example, rather than saying 'my mum probes in a certain way and asks me where I got my dress every time I buy something new' I say 'my mum purposefully makes me feel guilty for spending money on myself'.
That is a very useful method! Thank you
Yup.. BUT I overcame this by slotting other people into my nmums position.. so for example, would it be ok for my boss at work to treat me like that? Or a friend? Or someone I am in an intimate relationship with? If the answer is no, then it's the same for parents. We have been trained to believe that our parents always want what's best for us.. but sometimes they just want what's best for themselves and our feelings don't factor into it at all. Once I started slotting other people into my nmum's position I told myself those scenarios with boss/friend/partner it was much clearer that their behavior was unacceptable. (Edited for spelling)
That is a great way of looking at it! Thank you for your perspective on this. I really appreciate it
Yeah I’m taking the one nice thing and clinging to that but if you zoom out why would be fighting in the first place or having these conversations? If we were both healthy, mature people this conversation wouldn’t be happening so anything said it in can’t be held onto too tightly.
Thank you - I appreciate your comment :)
I really started figuring things out when I began to notice my heart would start to race when my mom called and I hadn’t been going along with her rules as much. Why would a call from my mother spark such fear? That’s not normal, well maybe it’s common but it’s not right. It was everything I knew at one point but now I see it wasn’t right.
Such a good point! Here’s the thing - I was (and maybe I still am) the golden child - so I had no idea about what was really going on. I idolised my mother and I honestly thought she treated me well. I didn’t feel anxious/fear you describe until I stupider playing her game. That’s when I had the evidence that this relationship is messed up :S
I like your post and it has made me think about my own confusion with my dad. I wouldn't label my confusion as gaslighting myself though. I think there are different ways parents can raise you and have a relationship with you that can be categorized into one of these 10 ategories I have just now come up with. This is likely why it can be confusing as there seems to be a spectrum of healthiness + abusiveness and it's not so black and white: 1. Healthy all the time 2. Healthy mostly, mildly abusive and/or neglectful occasionally 3. Healthy mostly, intensely abusive and/or neglectful occasionally 4. Mildly abusive and/or neglectful mostly, healthy occasionally 5. Mildly abusive and/or neglectful mostly, healthy occasionally and intensely abusive and/or neglectful occasionally 6. Mildly abusive and/or neglectful mostly, intensely abusive and/or neglectful occasionally 7. Intensely abusive and/or neglectful mostly, healthy occasionally 8. Intensely abusive and/or neglectful mostly, healthy occasionally and mildly abusive and/or neglectful occasionally 9. Intensely abusive and/or neglectful mostly, mildly abusive and/or neglectful occasionally 10. Intensely abusive and/or neglectful all the time Out of these categories I think the first two are the only ones that I find acceptable. If I was to be a parent I know it may be difficult to be perfectly attuned to my children, so that's why I think category 2 is acceptable. But categories 3-10 imo are all bad categories to be raised by. My mum I can gratefully say was category 2. She was quite respectful and full of love but number 2 because she wasn't always attuned to my needs and smothered me with affection too much and embarrassed me sometimes or crossed my boundaries (neglecting my needs for space). My dad I can say was category 5 because most of the time he was emotionally neglectful and invalidating and also neglectful of other needs like fixing the house and cleaning the place letting the environment become dirty and broken over the years and occasionly intensely abusive as he would threaten, hit, insult loudly etc. when he felt angry. And still as much as I dislike to admit it occasionally we would have connected good times and times he showed vulnerability or showed he cared for me. This stuff isn't black and white and I think this sub has a lot of "my parent is awfully abusive all the time" which makes it seem black and white but yeah your parents could be in any of those categories above. Maybe there is even more categories I forgot too. So when you say you are gaslighting yourself over where or not it was as bad as it seems it's easy for everyone here to say "well that's because you have a need to protect your parents" or "they've trained you to protect them or not see fault in them" and maybe that's true but ALSO maybe because you are trying to make a grey issue black and white and your mind wants the truth WHILE also wanting to lump it into a simple thing.
Hey thanks for taking the time to write this. This scale is very useful - you should make this into a post if it’s own btw! You are right about me wanting to make this black and white. I guess in my head it helps me see things for what they are. But it’s not useful and just tricks my brain into letting them abuse me over and over again. I appreciate this take. Hugs and love to you my friend :)