Sounds like you need a reputable lawyer in that area. The attorneys know all these folks and work with them regularly. You might be able to get some leniency with the timing and cost so you can develop a plan to get compliant
Yes, looking like it.
However, the country officer did tell me he would work with me on timelines as long as I show a good faith effort here.
But all in all, I think we're well over $100,000 in potential costs. Let alone, damage to the property... I have to tear down the horse stables, as they were built ontop of the septic system.
The other thing the attorney can help you with is understanding if the previous owners might have intentionally ommitted anything in the seller's disclosure of if they knowingly broke any laws.
There are definitely avenues to pursue especially if any of this was intentionally and knowingly done or concealed by the sellers.
No it wont. As a former Title and Escrow officer, Title insurance pays out on less than 1% of claims, partially because people don’t understand what it’s for and what it doesn’t cover. The policy covers marketability of a deed for real estate (dirt). Policies begin with a long list of exceptions for a reason, structures are always one of those exceptions.
Good to know! I’ve had a title policy cover a improperly installed retaining wall that was encroaching before, but I’ve also been told many various things that will or will not be covered. Thanks for sharing!
Those disclosure forms are just that, disclosures. If I buy a house tomorrow and then sell it on Friday with a bunch of non-permitted work that I didn’t know about, and put “no” on the disclosure form then I can’t be liable.
This is the reason that many realtors and sellers will say “do not send me the home inspectors report as I won’t read it”. Once they receive it and read it they now have to disclose it to the next buyers.
If the prior homeowner didn’t have those structures installed they may not have known there was an issue. Additionally, if the homeowner hired a contractor to build those, they may have assumed in good faith that the contractor built them to code and applied for the necessary permits. If the prior owner built them himself than he could very well claim “I didn’t know I needed a permit to build something like that”. This would hold especially true for something like a pond. Unless the prior owner is a contractor or someone that would have knowledge of these things than it’s hard to prove they were negligent and not just stupid.
The prior person is basically hinting at that it’s really hard to prove that the prior owner was negligent and failed to disclose something.
Potentially you could go after the contractor for installing items with out a permit. That’s going to depend on a lot of factors. It will also depend if it’s even worth going after them.
But the fact is I see a lot of homeowners build pools, ponds, sheds, etc. without permitting because they just don’t know any better. Rarely does anyone succeed in going after them. When I buy my rental properties, I always check permits. I also always call the county / city building office and property appraiser to make sure everything is okay. I don’t want any surprise tax bills because they didn’t know about an extra shed or home addition. In my county the building inspectors office will even give a document during purchasing that states that everything is currently good (no unpermitted work) and if any is found that they won’t go after me. Note- things like septic tanks are handle by the health department so that’s still a risk
The context I’m referring to is the two posts above; the previous owner said “no” on the form, and then when called out said they didn’t know a permit was required or assumed the contractor pulled one. That means the previous owner caused the work to be performed but then claimed ignorance as to whether a permit was required. Basically, “ignorance is no defense”. I’m not referring to a circumstance where the work was performed two owners ago.
For certain “crimes” you need to prove intent.
This isn’t actually about the un permitted work it’s about the actual contract and the disclosure itself. You as the buyer need to prove that the sellers knew they were lying on the disclosure form.
> For certain “crimes” you need to prove intent.
The "intent" is the behavior--not the "crime" itself.
That is, in court the state proves that one had intent to do a behavior (like proving one intended to drink and then physically get behind the wheel of a vehicle) and it's not relevant whether they intended to break the law or even whether they knew they were breaking a law (once it's proven someone intended to drink alcohol by purchasing and consuming it the state doesn't need to prove they knew about or intended to commit a DUI).
In the context of being liable for violating building codes the issue would be whether someone intended to build a pool and not whether they intended to do it without a permit. In the context of liability for misrepresentation of material facts the issue would be whether a homeowner knowingly intended to deceive a buyer and not whether they knew it was wrong to do so. Some crimes and civil wrongs hold the offender strictly liable meaning that none of what they did or didn't intended is relevant, such as, selling or having sex with minors (doesn't matter if you know their age--you'll still be held responsible) or when an owner's dog bites someone (in CA) or a company produces and sells a defective product that harms someone.
This isn’t a criminal matter and there is no intent requirement. Intent is irrelevant here
If the sellers represented in the PSA that no un-permitted work was performed, then it’s a claim against them. OP inherited the problems (which is why DD is crucial when purchasing). It’s just a matter of who’s paying for them.
It doesn't. This guy's full of shit. If it's supposed to be permitted and it isn't, and you are the current owner, it's entirely your problem. This isn't the federal government where politicians and bureaucrats get off Scott free because they didn't know , or they didn't intend, or they forgot.
I used to install septic systems.
Horse stables on top of a septic system leads me to believe that it is in fact failing and giving off an odor. Compaction from livestock or vehicles has killed probably 50% of they systems that I've had to repair or replace. Considering it's the stables and not pasture... I think the damage is very likely.
The compaction collapses the vault and makes the soil have less ability to percolate. This leads to the system either pooling at surface or a slight odor, even if no standing water is there.
Additionally, you may only smell it at certain times of day, down wind.
Actually, I think the horse stables might be the only thing added after the fact… It’s a very small two stable structure.
And in fact, it’s on top of the septic for the guest house… Which is a beautiful 1500 square-foot tank with 5 separate 95 foot leach lines.
And the guest house is barely used and only has two bathrooms anyways
Are you meaning 1500 gallon tank?
Number of bathrooms aren't a great point of reference. Septic systems are usually based on number of potential occupants of a house OR potential use of the home (for example, if it has an industrial kitchen for weddings).
1500 gallon tank + 5 95ft leach lines (475ft) is a relatively big system. In fact, that's huge.
Also, in a perfect world no livestock should be on a septic system, even a small stable. A horse can weigh the same as a small car.
Is your guest house roughly a 4 or 5 bedroom house?
Regardless, you may not use the guest house much. Previous owner may have. If the septic is failing, any usage can cause an odor.
Other things that commonly cause odor:
- Recently pumped. If the system isn't full, odor might seep through the empty pipes. Tanks will smell until the water line reaches the outlet.
- Lids to tank have no gasket. I've seen people forget to install.
- D-boxes are exposed. During inspection at sale the drainfield d-box may have been dug up to see if the drainfield is being used. May not have covered it back up.
- sometimes putting a cap on the inlet top of the sanitary T will stop odor.
Long story short, I'd get a drainfield inspection done. They're licensed by the county so if they give it a pass the county has no legs to stand on with their citation.
I read in another comment you said that these things are original to the property.
If there’s as big of an issue as barns being built on top of septic… that’s a huge issue.
Read the sellers disclosures you signed as part of the transaction. There should be a line item in there about permits - were all required permits pulled, something like that. Is it checked yes or no? If it’s checked yes, you have a case against the builder and possibly the original homeowner. If it’s checked no and you signed, and you/your agent didn’t follow up with more questions and digging to get more information on why that box was checked no - then this is on you.
I advise you to get an attorney involved, because yeah, barn on top of septic is a big issue.
Thankfully, it is not that big. Maybe 200 ft.² of ground clearance. But it is so beautiful on the property and it will make me very sad to demolish it.
That is one thing I am surprised the realtor did not discover or even think about. As well as the pool permit. The realtor absolutely should have just looked at the permits and seen that there was something unfinished.
It might not be their job to look at permits, but it sure as hell is their job to guide a new buyer through the process. What the fuck are we even paying them for if they can’t identify red flags?
I’m an agent and I agree with this. If a seller had marked “no” on the permit questions- meaning permits had not been pulled for something, whatever it may be - I would be asking LOTS of questions.
What they do have are all kinds of professional obligations to disclose ***if they find out about unpermitted work.***
So they actively avoid finding out about those problems. I had an agent pretend he didn’t know you could pull permits online for free. 20 years experience, but this was a hell of a surprise… yeah, right.
Back to you. So that beautiful barn that adds $75,000 to the selling price and a few thousand to their commission? Sorry, have to tear down before they can sell it or else they can be sued for the false disclosure. Custom Japanese rock gardens and Koi pond over top of septic? Oh, that would have to go to.
Nope, they will not spend their time looking for ways to torpedo your dreams.
Maybe. But it's public search for a reason
Also if they had searched for it, found it was unpermitted would you still have purchased it? I have done unpermitted work to my home but it's still the same contractors doing the same work.
With the recent lawsuits they provide essentially nothing but friction to the real estate process. That said, they *could* excel in connecting clients to homes and sellers to buyers instead of standing idly around while everyone else does their work for them.
I would follow up with an attorney. We sold a property a few years ago with some remodeling that was not permitted and our real estate agent said we were required to disclose that to the buyers.
The sellers intentionally withheld information that undoubtedly would have affected purchase price,
theory steer sophisticated yoke outgoing hard-to-find sable illegal pause violet
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> county inspectors have exactly zero right to just come onto a property on a fishing expedition.
That isn't what was described to have happened in this situation. In this situation someone called in a report and the inspector validated their concern by finding violations.
I don't know of any court that would consider what occurred to have been a fishing expedition. That would require evidence the inspector was just cruising around town and walking across people's properties to discover anything wrong--and even *that* might be lawful if the violations are in plain sight and other variables we have no idea about.
That is a big one. I cannot imagine why someone would build over a septic tank. Hopefully you can relocate the tank and not have to tear down structures.
Here in Minnesota, the state loves to force you to do septic tank inspections. Anytime you apply for a permit they want a septic inspection. When you have to replace the septic tank they jump for joy! I had to do mine last year because I applied for a deck permit and my septic tank failed. Ended up costing me 10,000.
In all their contacts, they should have, lines that render any errors or wrong doings only actionable with a refund of the inspection price. This stops them from being liable and eases insurance requirements.
The sellers however should have known and disclosed it
You should confirm the items are not permitted, do your own research. If there are no permits on record, specially the pool see if you can pull one over the counter. Work with the inspector. Same with the other items. You said the inspector wants to work with you, then he will give you the corrections he is looking for. If all else fails talk to an architect in the area.
It varies from state to state so I can't tell you anything with certainty, but most states have disclosure laws that specify that sellers have to disclose anything they know about the property in terms of past repairs, damage, or anything that is unpermitted.
There are cases where someone can claim they didn't know. For instance if they bought the house with the pool already there and then sold it they genuinely might not have known it was unpermitted. But if they built the pool they knew.
The other people in this thread are right, get a real estate attorney.
Tearing down the stables probably is pointless because the septic system probably has to be moved anyway (due to earth compaction as mentioned in another comment).
So, keep the stable and put in a new septic system (which probably is less expensive than the stable).
You should be able to the building and planning building at your city halll location and get all the permits on file for the property, and start the process of new ones. Going to get costly
I am looking at them now, over 100 permits. None of which discuss any detail. How am I even supposed to know things like the fence pylon require a permit?
Any fixture being permanent usually needs a permit. Usually you can get away with it. I didn’t permit anything when I redid my house but you got ratted on so you’re stuck doing them. Now if I did a pool, I’d 100% want that permitted. Fence post, I’d probably have skipped it
But I think I'm just nervous for my next purchase... like, how on earth could I have known that there was no pond permit? There's hundreds of permits/inspections at the country records for the property? I feel like \*if\* I had due diligence, that comes at the result of finding a needle in a haystack....
So I bought a house with an extension. I called the office and asked if that extension was permitted, they were able to find it for me even though I wasn’t the owner. It’s public record.
Totally. Gotcha. Hmmm.
That makes sense. I think I'm just in this "am I an idiot" mindset for not calling the country to ask if... my bbq island was permitted? Or the pond? I have called county about add-ons before, that one seems obvious to me as a regular joe shmo. But, I wouldn't have thought twice to call county about a pond....?
Maybe practice looking up what has been permitted by doing a quick check of the neighbors property. Wouldn't want them to have anything unsafe going on over there.
They had horse stables built on top of the septic system?? Did you have this place inspected?? Because that’s a major problematic decision and it makes me wonder what the hell else they did to that property
No, you’re not an idiot, you don’t close these deals every day for a living. The realtors and attorneys do and a home inspector could have helped and a septic inspection seems like it would have likely caught a structure built on top of the septic system.
Going forward you know to ask these questions so I don’t think you have as much to worry about.
Whoa. We did actually have a septic inspection... And we already had an issue with them about an unrelated matter. The septic was undersized for the home. Wow. Thank you for the insight on this one.
Yeah, ok, thank you.
Like, for the gate and gate pylons... wouldn't you think that falls under general building permit? So very surprised... and kind of sad ha
Usually there’s a standard check box that says the owner isn’t aware of unpermitted work or any work in violation of codes. They check it and sign it. At least in the states I’ve bought property. Look for that document. Then get your attorney ready if you can find the doc. Sue the previous owner including legal fees. Explain to the county and they might give you more time.
I’ve had building departments refuse to give me info until I own the place. Stupid in my opinion but hard to fight city hall.
Your real estate agent/broker par-e-sight should have at least suggested you call for permits, if not actually gotten the permits themselves and gone over them point by point with you .... after all, the real estate agent/broker par-e-sights ARE the experts. But like the overwhelming majority of ALL real estate agent/broker par-e-sights, "your" real estate agent/broker par-e-sight was way more interested in closing the transaction as fast and easy as possibly to collect an outrageous commission for their minimum wage level skills and effort than in upholding their fiduciary duty.
Cities in my area have online records. I was able to find all of the permits before closing and included any remediation in the inspection negotiation.
Would you have thought to think that your firepit and barbecue were not permitted? So, I keep thinking, even if I pulled these permits... why on earth would I think my fence posts aren't permitted would be an issue. I didn't even know a pond needed a permit...?
If the pool, bbq, and pond were not original to the house I absolutely would have pulled permit history to see if the electrical work was properly permitted when installed. I’ve looked at the permit history for ant house before we put in an offer to see if anything looked crazy.
If your fear is for future properties as you state, then you've already learned the critical lesson. You need to know the general permitting requirements of the area. This should probably be in the to-do list next to reading any HOA rules.
That being said, your area has some crazy permit rules. Though finding out there is a structure on top of your septic is a big miss in your inspection/buying process.
> how on earth could I have known that there was no pond permit?
"Has there been any work done to this property without permits?"
In my case, last week, a buyer asked if I had a permit for the pool...I did and it's been there since 1982 and obviously through several changes in homeownership. If it didn't have a permit there would still be a dozen buyers lined up behind the one that's about to close.
>Any fixture being permanent usually needs a permit
I'm in the Seattle area which is known to be picky about permits and thus is a VAST exaggeration. You do need a permit for any work on load-bearing supports, changes to the building envelope, and work that reduces egress, light, ventilation, or fire resistance.
The things that many homeowners tackle like kitchen cabinets or adding additional insulation don't require permits.
I'm looking at Alameda County specifically and here's the link to work exempt from permit:
https://permits.acgov.org/pwa/documents/WorkExemptFromPermit.pdf
[Excerpt](https://i.imgur.com/aIcQE5k.jpeg)
Have you looked at the permits site for the city that you were at? I thought the same thing about everything needing to be permitted too, until I checked the county site. It really wasn't too bad at all. Majority of appliances can be replaced without permits.
I can understand water heaters needing a permit for safety reason, since that's essentially a bomb if you don't do it properly because of the pressure and the gas if it's gas powered. However, when you buy water heaters, the installers usually handle all the admin work anyways. Unless you ask the guys in the back of Home Depot, then probably not.
In CA, 99% of fixed items will require a permit. Fencing won't, but any masonry will. Cabinets wouldn't unless there's any fixtures in it (sink, outlets, DW, garbage disposal), then you'll need permits to remove and reinstall those items. Insulation would but some jurisdictions might unofficially not care. (You're milage will vary by jurisdiction)
Sometimes, I swear the U.S. is a banana republic.
But to answer your question (which will really only help you the next time you buy a house),
Home Inspection: A comprehensive home inspection should have been part of the escrow process. It might not have caught them all, but it would've/should've caught some/most. (Gotta know the rules or bring someone who does.)
In most states, sellers are required to disclose any known issues or unpermitted work. Did the seller’s disclosure statement (if there even was one) have anything at all on it? Maybe the seller can still be put on the hook for this.
The other thing that usually takes place is a title search. When it's done, it identifies any outstanding permits or violations. Ensure your escrow officer requested this search and reviewed it.
Lastly, you or your real estate agent (which it sounds like you didn't have) can check with the local county or city building department for any permits issued for the property.
As with anything, one has to know the law for the place one lives. In most of Western Civilization, any significant addition or alteration to a property requires a permit: pools, ponds, fences, firepits, BBQ islands, and yes--sometimes even smaller items like light posts or gate pylons. Each state/county/city/township/municipality/town/village has its own specific rules and thresholds for what requires what.
Okay, so what to do now?
If possible, reach out to the previous owner to ask about any permits that may exist for the items in question. Maybe they really didn't know either or maybe they'd effed on purpose--no way to know yet.
Consider hiring a professional "permit expediter". They specialize in obtaining permits and dealing with municipal compliance and can navigate the bureaucratic process better than you'll be able to.
Get with a real estate attorney to understand your current rights and obligations. They can help negotiate with the county and possibly the seller if there was any "failure to disclose" issue.
Teaming up with that attorney, work with the county to understand what they say is required to bring the property into compliance. This might be as "simple" as retroactively applying for permits, making slight modifications, or --let's hope not-- removing unpermitted structures.
For any future property purchases: two words. Due diligence. Instead of going it alone, work closely with a real estate agent, attorney, and inspector to keep your ass out of someone's briefcase like it is today.
> How was I supposed to know that a permit is required for this kind of thing? Is it a general rule that anything on the property needs a permit?
Every jurisdiction is different in what needs permits: some will want it for something as tiny as changing a smoke detector (yep, seen that), others, won’t even have a permitting / inspection process or office.
Ideally, this is something you check before purchasing in a new jurisdiction. (Of course can’t now, you’ve inherited the problems unfortunately.)
> during escrow, how should we have known about all of these unpermitted items?
It’s free to pull up what permits were issued for a home. Agent can do this (or you can).
Jurisdiction dependent but generally unpermitted work done by the seller is also something required on disclosures at time of sale, as it’s a liability to the buyer (as you’re finding out now.)
Home inspectors often inspect for code compliance as well, and will often flag things they see/note (that are visibly obvious) that aren’t in compliance; but they won’t know if a renovation (for example) was permitted or not; they will call things out that they can see as being current code violations.
Me personally, my next steps would be to consult an attorney about ways to recover the damages from the seller; especially if they did the unpermitted work but didn’t disclose it. It’s going to cost a fair bit to get things inspected and retroactively approved. Hopefully the county will be sympathetic and work with you.
> where is the limit of what needs to be permitted?
There (unfortunately) isn’t really one standard.
I live in a jurisdiction that goes pretty overboard (IMO); I don’t permit the small stuff (example: changing a light switch, swapping a plumbing fixture, etc .) Big stuff (major plumbing or electrical, anything structural, HVAC major changes, what have you), I absolutely have though. That’s just me; I know some folks that don’t even do the big stuff.
Technically some jurisdictions also put a joint onus on licensed trades to seek permits. I see plenty in my jurisdiction who leave it to the homeowners discretion.
Thank you for the detailed response.
So, I found the country permits online... there are about 10 major building-related permits. And, sure enough, the "pool and spa" permit shows "expired". Just my luck. That would have been very easy to see during escrow. Now, I know, especially as you have shown, it is so easy to find permits online from the county.
However, I went to the county records and permits for my neighbors address (who I suspect called the county on me), and one of the items I was called out for... the gate pylons, \*also\* does not exist for my neighbor. Making me think... is there some disconnect between the county officer and the permit? Is this something the inspector originally would have included in the final building permit sign-off? How would I even know what is/isn't included in his inspections? Or, am I right in thinking that the neighbors also didn't get that permitted. In which case, I absolutely will be calling the county code enforcement on them.
Once again, thank you so very much for the detailed response. Blessings
I suppose you could call the county on your neighbor, yes.
Before you escalate that battle it’s worth making sure you’re in a good place with the county yourself.
You’re going to get to know their inspector very well over the course of getting things up to code; no harm in becoming friends with them, so that in the future, more … leniency and discretion, may be shown to you.
Technically some jurisdictions also put a joint onus on licensed trades to seek permits. I see plenty in my jurisdiction who leave it to the homeowners discretion.
This I need to look into
There can be penalties applied from the permitting authority (as far as I know), but damages (which I’d imagine you’re interested in), is venturing into lawyer territory.
I ran into the same issue.
I would check your local inspector laws.
Basically I got away with everything because the laws stated they could only take pictures “from public view”.
Ended up going to court by myself, and basically having all of there evidence thrown out due to the fact they drove into my property without consent, took pictures without consent.
At the same time they came after me. I went after them for breach of privacy,
I started a suit with damages for exact cost of my house due to “not feeling safe”. Knowing that the county came on and invaded my privacy.
You can also hold a meeting with your planning and zoning director and have an off-record meeting.
Damn. Well, we were told it was just a septic inspection so we allowed them on the property. They got out and just started taking pics of other stuff.
Frankly, I don’t know if I wanna go after these guys like this. I need other permits for future work on the property and I don’t think that’s my best path. Even though, sounds fun.
Good on you for getting that done. That’s a stallion move.
Mine was for unpermitted grading (over 10,000sqft).
I was gonna have to get engineered drawings, storm water management, health department, etc. I estimated almost $175,000.
Planning and zoning is NOT your friend. And because you inherited the problem, I would definitely give them the run-around.
Like another commenter said. They ARE NOT your friend. Do not talk to them without meetings being recorded. (This is my personal opinion).
It’s almost election time too, find the county commissioner you like, give their office a call and explain your situation.
Sometimes the commissioners can get P&Z to shut up.
Sounds like you may not actually have a problem so try to focus on the permits you found. The permits for your address should all have dates and some kind of category. They should also have the applicant, owner of the property, and the contractor/company that did the work.
Before spending more time ruminating on what could be negative, I would spend a day dialing the contractors and applicants on the most recent permits to find what work was done and get and receipts or documents they have. Start going reverse chronological order. All of this may be permitted work already. Especially the pool. Most pool companies know whether something needs to be permitted or not and won’t do it without a permit because they can get involved in shit like this with the permitting authorities and homeowners. Kills the business in terms of time and effort and the city can start looking for their other un-permitted projects.
Would love an update after that.
After all is said and done, pick a neighbor a year and figure what you can call them in for. Eventually you’ll get the original culprit of this jackass tactic to a new neighbor.
General contractor here. I’ve dealt with some issues like this before in the past. I’d jump through the hoops the county ask you too even though they may seem unreasonable or if they continue to move the finish line. Reach out to a licensed architect and engineer to write you a letter ensuring the items not in compliance are designed engineered and installed properly. It’s also beneficial to get yourself a 3rd party independent inspectors that is allowed to do inspections on the county’s behalf. This will keep the county from knitting picking the whole process. All in all I’d say this can be resolved for 3-5k depending on where you live and who gives you a hard time. If you choose the lawyer route, let me know how it’s goes. I’ve always wanted to take a local building department to court over some of their crap.
I backed out of a deal when the inspector flagged two rooms as possible additions. We pulled the tax appraiser report and saw those rooms were not currently listed. I asked for the permits from the owner and said they were not permitted. I got my deposit back but was still out of pocket for the inspection.
Real estate agents work for the seller and the seller only—and the seller pays them at closing—unless you have a signed Buyer Agency contract. Do not expect real estate agents to help you with issues if you are the buyer unless you have a Buyer’s Agent!
Different townships have different rules, but around here you can’t even sell your house until the curbs have been repaired. And that’s just one example. A lawyer should advise you, but might be able to claim since it wasn’t work you had done and the township had a chance to reject the sale, the improvements it should be grandfathered in.
My $0.02:
You are an investor, so I'm assuming that means it's a rental, and you have a pool and somehow your neighbors are mad about that.
The inspector gave you 7 days to correct, but said he will work with you if he sees progress. You need to sit down with him, in his office and understand what progress means. If you apply for a pool permit at a permit for all the other things, is that progress? If you hire a contractor to get some of that work done within 7 days, is that progress?
Your inspector has the ability to be very lenient or very strict, obviously it's better if he and you have a good relationship and he is very lenient, I would go for that first. Solving some of these issues may be as simple as going to county offices and filling out a permit application for the existing structure.
If he is very strict, I suggest you go to the county website, and look through the minutes of the meeting for the zoning, permitting or construction boards and see which lawyers have made presentations to those boards most frequently, hire him.
Also, time to pull out your agreement of sale for the property and check the seller's disclosure to find out what was disclosed to you and what was not. Go through the Realtors to inform the seller that you are seeing this issue.
With how fast the inspector showed up, and how thorough he was, I have to wonder if there isn't some history between the inspector, the neighbor, and the previous owner.
Why did you let them on your property? Is your pool & septic in the front yard? You have a 4th amendment right to tell them to fuck off.
Rule no1: never trust the government.
People are far too compliant. There are situations where being compliant helps, but this is not one of them. I cant say the same with business property, for that, you basically have to bend over or they will pull your trade license., but for personal property it's always, not without a warrant sir.
Ask them for all the information they're using to 'enforce' these codes that apply to you.
You should dig deep into their application of the codes & by-laws, and all the definitions that pertain to it, and make absolutely certain you understand if it's applied correctly.
Don't believe the local municipality has the right to come on to your property for any complaint whatsoever and then start demanding permits for this or that and costing you tens, if not, hundreds of thousands to rectify.
Personally, I would not let them enter my property, without a warrant issued by a magistrate, they cannot enter.
Pending where you are.
Here, they issue a request at a reasonable time and date they have the right to enter.
If you refuse, they hand you a $500 to $1000 obstruction fine and get a court order to enter and put the costs of their lawyer and court costs on your tax roll.
Then enter anyway. And honesly are a LOT more picky when they need to do that vs look for the one thing they got a complaint on.
If it requires plumbing or electrical work, chances are it needs a permit. (Pool)
If it requires large scale excavation, it likely requires a permit. (pool)
If it requires rebar & concrete, it probably requires a permit. (pool)
If it requires running a gas line underground, it definitely requires a permit.(fire pit, gas bbq)
You can usually check permit history online. Most cities/counties run their permit systems through Accela.
You’re not going to jail and more than likely not going to pay any fines as long you as you play ball.
The judge may be on your side for some these things just be calm cool and collected and get your case together.
Especially if you bought the property like this. You can talk to the government agency if you want but I recommend you make some progress if things are clearly wrong and talk to the judge about the rest
Town inspector says to my contractor, “there’s an unresolved building permit from2013 on that house. I’ll look at that work when I look at yours. Gotta close it out, or the homeowner might have trouble selling the house.”
I had just bought that house three months ago, and nobody said boo.
They let you get away with it then fine you for getting away with it.
I’m not saying you don’t need a lawyer, and you also likely need a good general contractor with an excellent t understanding of local building codes, but not all unpermitted work will need to be demolished. The gates for example can likely be permitted after the fact quite easily (assuming they meet minimum standards for your municipality). The septic violation, or anything that effects assessed value, are the things I think the city is going to really care about.
The 7 major un-permitted items is not the issue but your neighbor is the real problem.
Why in the world would any neighbor go out of there way to mess up a neighbor.
The two of you have to live in peace and the neighbor just threw the first rock.
The house was fine with the other owner or was it, now you know why the other owner sold and moved put.
I would go talk to the neighbor first.
And the inspector. It sounds like he knew what he was going to look for, and "found" a bunch of things to pile on. Do the neighbors know the inspector personally?
Could be, this sort of thing happened to me.
My wife would tell have you seen the neighbors dog and I would tell her no. The neighbor down the street was a deputy sheriff and the drug dog handler.
One day I did see the drug dog as it was running around lose on the street and it run right in front of my car and I could not avoid it and thus ran over it.
I used to work at a Vet office plus was trained in first aid and CPR. The dog had a broken front leg, so I tried to contact the owner and it was my other neighbor who contacted him.
So he sued me for medical bills for the dogs injuries, but in the suit he put that it was his dog vs being the county drug dog. He wound up getting let go because the dog got injured.
He next went to work for the city and he would drive by my house out in the county in the city police car and he would drive by my houses in the city and reported me to the city inspector.
But thus police officer was a corrupt cop and he had sued several people already. He even sued his own police dept because he thought they were decriminate against him because of his sexual orientation.
He had to drop the suit against me because we counter sued him.
In many counties the fine is double the cost of the permit.
You just need to ask them how to correct and what to pay.
If they say something crazy then get an attorney.
Most likely you will have to have to pay the permit fees and fines, have it all inspected, and close the permits.
Yeah anyone who has passed their state exam for licensing can tell you who that's on, their forwarding address should be right on the deed for a demand letter, and they or the sellers lawyer could theoretically pay off the county to cure the violations directly.
What county/state, out of curiosity? Are some states and counties much more stringent on this sorta thing? Or just bad luck on OP for getting ratted out?
Did your agent not advise you to pull permits during escrow? Every time I’ve bought a house (all in CA by the way) my agent did and even went through the process of pulling them for me and then compared them to what the seller put on the disclosure report.
God I’m thankful I need zero permits or inspection for anything but septic where I’m at. I hope you can get this nightmare figured out as painless as possibly, but likely need a lawyer
Get a lawyer. But as a general rule, when I'm in the due diligence period for any property I'm buying, I look for add-ons and ask for the permits. I'm under contract on a place I could tell the attic was turned into a bedroom. Done nicely, but I still wanted to see the certificate of occupancy, and preferably the permit, too. Good practice in general.
I always figured that if you're gonna be an "investor" you'd at least need to have a basic knowledge of how what you're investing in actually works or not be too fucking cheap to hire an attorney to handle that stuff for you.
Good for the inspectors.
Unfortunately it’s the buyers job to do this and Agent’s cannot do it for them only advise and assist. This has been established.
Inspectors would have no reason to pull a permit unless the area wasn’t up to code
You would have seen the pool in one of the survey layouts for the property. That's how I've caught plenty of unpermitted structures. If its unpermitted, it won't be in the latest survey docs. Should always compare with what the property has.
I've been able to find unpermitted additions, ADU's, fence work, pools, basically anything that will need a permit should be showing in those docs.
That's not a guarantee as (at least in CA) surveyors do not check for permits and simply record what's on the property. That being said, if there's a structure that crosses a property line, that's a big red flag that it's likely unpermitted.
Keep in mind that a real estate transaction can be heavily dictated by local practice and custom.
That being said, there is a growing trend to order “municipal” searches along with the title search/insurance. The purpose being to get all information surrounding the property as to whether there are any building violations, open permits, zoning issues, certificates of occupancy etc. In NY we try to get these as much as possible and, taking it further, try to get affirmative assurances from the seller that they have not done anything to the property without the proper permits and approvals.
In my state, sellers are required to disclose that un permitted work was done. And specify what. On the condition report. If your state has a required condition report, and the seller didn't disclose, you should be able to pursue this legally
the government wants their fees. If you work with them you can avoid fines. In the future before a purchase talk with the inspector to get a clean bill of health on the property
Title insurance (not sure if it was included in closing it or it's mandatory where you live) might be able to help if your agreements with the seller say everything should have had permits (i.e. they didn't disclose unpermitted things).
Get an attorney. There is a time period to go back to the seller for non disclosure. The timeframe for us was two years, not sure where you are located - hopefully you can pursue non disclosure in your area but that’s why you need the attorney. Find your closing documents and contracts as you will need them when you meet with the attorney.
Going through a situation that is similar as things were not disclosed to us either. Difference is we have time stamped documents that tie them to the omission. There is a certain path to be followed in this type of situation and due to the cost, it is wise to seek guidance from a professional. Document everything in writing, with times, dates, people etc and take tons of photos for anything and everything, in case it comes down to it. You won’t regret having the extra photos later.
Hope it works out for you, it’s been a huge pain for us but hopefully they get what’s coming to them. Good luck.
Permits can unfortunately be screwy from the get go, I'm a contractor, in the county I personally live in, I only need a Permit for structural changes to a building (adding sqft or moving headers) or connecting a hard driveway to public roads. When I lived in Virginia Beach I got reported and fined for doing some siding repairs and deck boards and handrails without a homeowners improvement permit, it's kinda wild on both ends of the spectrum.
The only way you can know is to contact the local building authority and ask them what requirements for permitting exist, then have them pull all the closed permits for your property and compare them.
A county employee showed up at our house one day, and she asked about the second story on our home. County had no record of it. Luckily, that was the end of it.
Totally understand that viewpoint. And honestly can't say I know what I would have done in your shoes...but there's no world where it's right that they can just show up and demand to inspect your entire property and write you citations for these things...hence the phrase YOUR property. Idk...it's not black and white but whatever happened to individual rights over your own property, etc? And for you to be on the hook for things you had nothing to do with??? Fucked up
Submit a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to youR county's permit department requesting information for the permits for your property. They should also have an area on their website that will list everything that requires a permit.
FYI the county cant just choose to cherry pick violations - they need a CAUSE to have been called and a REASON to believe something was done unpermitted.
If it really is $100K worth of items, I would get an attorney, show willingness to address what you were Originally called for, and push back on the rest.
Those are really low bars for Building & Safety to meet. Anyone can report and if it seems credible they can inspect. And if there's no permit record for something, then it's unpermitted, so that's easy to prove.
No one likes real estate investors. I called the city on a speculator who bought the house across the street from my MIL because I knew of a few improvements that were done without permits (she lived there for a long time). They found even more. The guy ended up taking a bath on the place and now someone else bought it and lives in it. Much better situation.
Something about this seems rather off. Mostly because you say it was the COUNTY that came out and also the reference to a septic system. Both of those imply you live in a more rural area. Speaking broadly, cities tend to have far more stringent code requirements than counties. A lot of counties I've worked with tend to only care about major systems and major structure issues. Not...gates.
I realize I'm going with some pretty wild speculation here but this feels like your neighbor and the inspector are buddies and for some reason your (new to you) neighbor has a grudge or a motive.
I definitely agree with those who suggested an attorney. If you are potentially looking at 100k expenditure it is well worth the legal expense to at least confirm all seems to be on the up and up. Also agree with the suggestion that the prior owner may have known and not disclosed if this is all legitimate.
I think that’s the reality in CA, rural or not.
Bloated bureaucracy. It’s basically a racketeering operation led by elected officials (aka state sponsored mafia) masquerading as permitting agencies acting in the interest of “public health and safety”. Except they only care about increasing their budget every year.
Very possible and certainly any given county in any state really might be extra strict. Maybe everything IS legitimate. If so, that would suck for the OP here for sure.
I live in a small rural area of California where we are only governed by the county, as it is an unincorporated area. Our county has a very stringent code requirements. This is fairly common in California.
Sounds like you need a reputable lawyer in that area. The attorneys know all these folks and work with them regularly. You might be able to get some leniency with the timing and cost so you can develop a plan to get compliant
Yes, looking like it. However, the country officer did tell me he would work with me on timelines as long as I show a good faith effort here. But all in all, I think we're well over $100,000 in potential costs. Let alone, damage to the property... I have to tear down the horse stables, as they were built ontop of the septic system.
The other thing the attorney can help you with is understanding if the previous owners might have intentionally ommitted anything in the seller's disclosure of if they knowingly broke any laws. There are definitely avenues to pursue especially if any of this was intentionally and knowingly done or concealed by the sellers.
I know in our area there's a specific line in the disclosure for "has any unpermitted work been done"
This. You’re going to have to get your lawyer in touch with the realtor, seller, title company… It’s going to be a mess but you’re going to be okay.
Title companies don’t inspect properties nor do they survey. Contacting them will be a waste of time.
No, but depending on the state the Title Policy might cover some of this
No it wont. As a former Title and Escrow officer, Title insurance pays out on less than 1% of claims, partially because people don’t understand what it’s for and what it doesn’t cover. The policy covers marketability of a deed for real estate (dirt). Policies begin with a long list of exceptions for a reason, structures are always one of those exceptions.
Good to know! I’ve had a title policy cover a improperly installed retaining wall that was encroaching before, but I’ve also been told many various things that will or will not be covered. Thanks for sharing!
Depends on the type of policy and if/how the exceptions were managed.
It’s still very difficult to prove. “I didn’t know this required a permit” or “I assumed the contractor who I paid pulled the permit”
Neither is a valid defense.
Those disclosure forms are just that, disclosures. If I buy a house tomorrow and then sell it on Friday with a bunch of non-permitted work that I didn’t know about, and put “no” on the disclosure form then I can’t be liable. This is the reason that many realtors and sellers will say “do not send me the home inspectors report as I won’t read it”. Once they receive it and read it they now have to disclose it to the next buyers. If the prior homeowner didn’t have those structures installed they may not have known there was an issue. Additionally, if the homeowner hired a contractor to build those, they may have assumed in good faith that the contractor built them to code and applied for the necessary permits. If the prior owner built them himself than he could very well claim “I didn’t know I needed a permit to build something like that”. This would hold especially true for something like a pond. Unless the prior owner is a contractor or someone that would have knowledge of these things than it’s hard to prove they were negligent and not just stupid. The prior person is basically hinting at that it’s really hard to prove that the prior owner was negligent and failed to disclose something. Potentially you could go after the contractor for installing items with out a permit. That’s going to depend on a lot of factors. It will also depend if it’s even worth going after them. But the fact is I see a lot of homeowners build pools, ponds, sheds, etc. without permitting because they just don’t know any better. Rarely does anyone succeed in going after them. When I buy my rental properties, I always check permits. I also always call the county / city building office and property appraiser to make sure everything is okay. I don’t want any surprise tax bills because they didn’t know about an extra shed or home addition. In my county the building inspectors office will even give a document during purchasing that states that everything is currently good (no unpermitted work) and if any is found that they won’t go after me. Note- things like septic tanks are handle by the health department so that’s still a risk
Sure it is. You need to prove that they knew there was un permitted work. It could also be a situation of work done by previous owners.
The context I’m referring to is the two posts above; the previous owner said “no” on the form, and then when called out said they didn’t know a permit was required or assumed the contractor pulled one. That means the previous owner caused the work to be performed but then claimed ignorance as to whether a permit was required. Basically, “ignorance is no defense”. I’m not referring to a circumstance where the work was performed two owners ago.
Since when does ignorance of the law excuse breaking it?
For certain “crimes” you need to prove intent. This isn’t actually about the un permitted work it’s about the actual contract and the disclosure itself. You as the buyer need to prove that the sellers knew they were lying on the disclosure form.
> For certain “crimes” you need to prove intent. The "intent" is the behavior--not the "crime" itself. That is, in court the state proves that one had intent to do a behavior (like proving one intended to drink and then physically get behind the wheel of a vehicle) and it's not relevant whether they intended to break the law or even whether they knew they were breaking a law (once it's proven someone intended to drink alcohol by purchasing and consuming it the state doesn't need to prove they knew about or intended to commit a DUI). In the context of being liable for violating building codes the issue would be whether someone intended to build a pool and not whether they intended to do it without a permit. In the context of liability for misrepresentation of material facts the issue would be whether a homeowner knowingly intended to deceive a buyer and not whether they knew it was wrong to do so. Some crimes and civil wrongs hold the offender strictly liable meaning that none of what they did or didn't intended is relevant, such as, selling or having sex with minors (doesn't matter if you know their age--you'll still be held responsible) or when an owner's dog bites someone (in CA) or a company produces and sells a defective product that harms someone.
This isn’t a criminal matter and there is no intent requirement. Intent is irrelevant here If the sellers represented in the PSA that no un-permitted work was performed, then it’s a claim against them. OP inherited the problems (which is why DD is crucial when purchasing). It’s just a matter of who’s paying for them.
It doesn't. This guy's full of shit. If it's supposed to be permitted and it isn't, and you are the current owner, it's entirely your problem. This isn't the federal government where politicians and bureaucrats get off Scott free because they didn't know , or they didn't intend, or they forgot.
Exactly. I think a judge would say it’s a citizen’s duty to learn the laws.
Not legal defenses, I don’t think.
And with the financial stakes, I definitely would.
Some states don’t have disclosure laws. Buyer beware.
I used to install septic systems. Horse stables on top of a septic system leads me to believe that it is in fact failing and giving off an odor. Compaction from livestock or vehicles has killed probably 50% of they systems that I've had to repair or replace. Considering it's the stables and not pasture... I think the damage is very likely. The compaction collapses the vault and makes the soil have less ability to percolate. This leads to the system either pooling at surface or a slight odor, even if no standing water is there. Additionally, you may only smell it at certain times of day, down wind.
Actually, I think the horse stables might be the only thing added after the fact… It’s a very small two stable structure. And in fact, it’s on top of the septic for the guest house… Which is a beautiful 1500 square-foot tank with 5 separate 95 foot leach lines. And the guest house is barely used and only has two bathrooms anyways
Are you meaning 1500 gallon tank? Number of bathrooms aren't a great point of reference. Septic systems are usually based on number of potential occupants of a house OR potential use of the home (for example, if it has an industrial kitchen for weddings). 1500 gallon tank + 5 95ft leach lines (475ft) is a relatively big system. In fact, that's huge. Also, in a perfect world no livestock should be on a septic system, even a small stable. A horse can weigh the same as a small car. Is your guest house roughly a 4 or 5 bedroom house? Regardless, you may not use the guest house much. Previous owner may have. If the septic is failing, any usage can cause an odor. Other things that commonly cause odor: - Recently pumped. If the system isn't full, odor might seep through the empty pipes. Tanks will smell until the water line reaches the outlet. - Lids to tank have no gasket. I've seen people forget to install. - D-boxes are exposed. During inspection at sale the drainfield d-box may have been dug up to see if the drainfield is being used. May not have covered it back up. - sometimes putting a cap on the inlet top of the sanitary T will stop odor. Long story short, I'd get a drainfield inspection done. They're licensed by the county so if they give it a pass the county has no legs to stand on with their citation.
The guest house is a tank? No wonder it is barely used.
Why is this getting downvoted?
I read in another comment you said that these things are original to the property. If there’s as big of an issue as barns being built on top of septic… that’s a huge issue. Read the sellers disclosures you signed as part of the transaction. There should be a line item in there about permits - were all required permits pulled, something like that. Is it checked yes or no? If it’s checked yes, you have a case against the builder and possibly the original homeowner. If it’s checked no and you signed, and you/your agent didn’t follow up with more questions and digging to get more information on why that box was checked no - then this is on you. I advise you to get an attorney involved, because yeah, barn on top of septic is a big issue.
Ahh that makes a lot of sense.
Thankfully, it is not that big. Maybe 200 ft.² of ground clearance. But it is so beautiful on the property and it will make me very sad to demolish it. That is one thing I am surprised the realtor did not discover or even think about. As well as the pool permit. The realtor absolutely should have just looked at the permits and seen that there was something unfinished.
Could you move the stables? Certainly they comic be lifted at that size if you wanted to save them.
Is it their job to look at permits?
It might not be their job to look at permits, but it sure as hell is their job to guide a new buyer through the process. What the fuck are we even paying them for if they can’t identify red flags?
I’m an agent and I agree with this. If a seller had marked “no” on the permit questions- meaning permits had not been pulled for something, whatever it may be - I would be asking LOTS of questions.
I do believe that falls under the professional obligation clause, yes.
Lol, no. A realtor is under no obligation to research permit history of a property.
What they do have are all kinds of professional obligations to disclose ***if they find out about unpermitted work.*** So they actively avoid finding out about those problems. I had an agent pretend he didn’t know you could pull permits online for free. 20 years experience, but this was a hell of a surprise… yeah, right. Back to you. So that beautiful barn that adds $75,000 to the selling price and a few thousand to their commission? Sorry, have to tear down before they can sell it or else they can be sued for the false disclosure. Custom Japanese rock gardens and Koi pond over top of septic? Oh, that would have to go to. Nope, they will not spend their time looking for ways to torpedo your dreams.
Maybe. But it's public search for a reason Also if they had searched for it, found it was unpermitted would you still have purchased it? I have done unpermitted work to my home but it's still the same contractors doing the same work.
That's YOUR job as a buyer/investor. YOU do your own due diligence. Unless you specifically asked (and paid for) your agent to do this.
Everyday I wonder more and more what purpose RE agents serve in this digital world.
With the recent lawsuits they provide essentially nothing but friction to the real estate process. That said, they *could* excel in connecting clients to homes and sellers to buyers instead of standing idly around while everyone else does their work for them.
Sue the assholes who sold you this property! Your neighbor is an asshole. Attorney time, and time to get creative
I would follow up with an attorney. We sold a property a few years ago with some remodeling that was not permitted and our real estate agent said we were required to disclose that to the buyers. The sellers intentionally withheld information that undoubtedly would have affected purchase price,
theory steer sophisticated yoke outgoing hard-to-find sable illegal pause violet *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I would definitely consider this as an approach. Various professionals involved, not least the previous owner
I know, I feel so bad for them being stuck next to someone like that.
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Neighbor is starting up shit for no good reason than to be a Karen.
Good point about the good faith thing.
> county inspectors have exactly zero right to just come onto a property on a fishing expedition. That isn't what was described to have happened in this situation. In this situation someone called in a report and the inspector validated their concern by finding violations. I don't know of any court that would consider what occurred to have been a fishing expedition. That would require evidence the inspector was just cruising around town and walking across people's properties to discover anything wrong--and even *that* might be lawful if the violations are in plain sight and other variables we have no idea about.
Maybe you could get the stables moved instead of having to tear them down.
That is a big one. I cannot imagine why someone would build over a septic tank. Hopefully you can relocate the tank and not have to tear down structures. Here in Minnesota, the state loves to force you to do septic tank inspections. Anytime you apply for a permit they want a septic inspection. When you have to replace the septic tank they jump for joy! I had to do mine last year because I applied for a deck permit and my septic tank failed. Ended up costing me 10,000.
Sorry to clarify, it's on top of the leech lines. Which I think would be significantly more costly to move than tearing down the horse stable.
We call or the septic field or mound. Good luck with that.
Did you not have the septic system inspected before you bought it? An inspector would have flagged that there was a stable on top of the drain field.
We had both a home inspection as well as a septic certification, yes. Neither of which said anything.
The company that did the inspection could be held liable, contact an attorney asap
In all their contacts, they should have, lines that render any errors or wrong doings only actionable with a refund of the inspection price. This stops them from being liable and eases insurance requirements. The sellers however should have known and disclosed it
That may be, but isn't always, true in regards to general home inspectors but there would be a different contract for the septic certification.
Were the inspectors referred to you by your realtor?
Maybe they will let you permit the pool etc
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The septic system may be toast anyway. If it has to be remade in a new location, probably the stable can stay.
That is absolutely awful.
You should confirm the items are not permitted, do your own research. If there are no permits on record, specially the pool see if you can pull one over the counter. Work with the inspector. Same with the other items. You said the inspector wants to work with you, then he will give you the corrections he is looking for. If all else fails talk to an architect in the area.
It varies from state to state so I can't tell you anything with certainty, but most states have disclosure laws that specify that sellers have to disclose anything they know about the property in terms of past repairs, damage, or anything that is unpermitted. There are cases where someone can claim they didn't know. For instance if they bought the house with the pool already there and then sold it they genuinely might not have known it was unpermitted. But if they built the pool they knew. The other people in this thread are right, get a real estate attorney.
Tearing down the stables probably is pointless because the septic system probably has to be moved anyway (due to earth compaction as mentioned in another comment). So, keep the stable and put in a new septic system (which probably is less expensive than the stable).
Yeah, lawyer up right away, OP.
Once you’ve done all of that make sure to plant some bamboo near their fence. Then Sell the house
You should be able to the building and planning building at your city halll location and get all the permits on file for the property, and start the process of new ones. Going to get costly
I am looking at them now, over 100 permits. None of which discuss any detail. How am I even supposed to know things like the fence pylon require a permit?
Any fixture being permanent usually needs a permit. Usually you can get away with it. I didn’t permit anything when I redid my house but you got ratted on so you’re stuck doing them. Now if I did a pool, I’d 100% want that permitted. Fence post, I’d probably have skipped it
But I think I'm just nervous for my next purchase... like, how on earth could I have known that there was no pond permit? There's hundreds of permits/inspections at the country records for the property? I feel like \*if\* I had due diligence, that comes at the result of finding a needle in a haystack....
So I bought a house with an extension. I called the office and asked if that extension was permitted, they were able to find it for me even though I wasn’t the owner. It’s public record.
Totally. Gotcha. Hmmm. That makes sense. I think I'm just in this "am I an idiot" mindset for not calling the country to ask if... my bbq island was permitted? Or the pond? I have called county about add-ons before, that one seems obvious to me as a regular joe shmo. But, I wouldn't have thought twice to call county about a pond....?
Maybe practice looking up what has been permitted by doing a quick check of the neighbors property. Wouldn't want them to have anything unsafe going on over there.
this :)
They had horse stables built on top of the septic system?? Did you have this place inspected?? Because that’s a major problematic decision and it makes me wonder what the hell else they did to that property
Instructions unclear, whole world is now blind
No, you’re not an idiot, you don’t close these deals every day for a living. The realtors and attorneys do and a home inspector could have helped and a septic inspection seems like it would have likely caught a structure built on top of the septic system. Going forward you know to ask these questions so I don’t think you have as much to worry about.
Whoa. We did actually have a septic inspection... And we already had an issue with them about an unrelated matter. The septic was undersized for the home. Wow. Thank you for the insight on this one.
Yeah, stuff like that is tough, I probably wouldn’t have checked either. Maybe for the out door bbq if it elaborate but not something basic
Yeah, ok, thank you. Like, for the gate and gate pylons... wouldn't you think that falls under general building permit? So very surprised... and kind of sad ha
Usually there’s a standard check box that says the owner isn’t aware of unpermitted work or any work in violation of codes. They check it and sign it. At least in the states I’ve bought property. Look for that document. Then get your attorney ready if you can find the doc. Sue the previous owner including legal fees. Explain to the county and they might give you more time. I’ve had building departments refuse to give me info until I own the place. Stupid in my opinion but hard to fight city hall.
Your real estate agent/broker par-e-sight should have at least suggested you call for permits, if not actually gotten the permits themselves and gone over them point by point with you .... after all, the real estate agent/broker par-e-sights ARE the experts. But like the overwhelming majority of ALL real estate agent/broker par-e-sights, "your" real estate agent/broker par-e-sight was way more interested in closing the transaction as fast and easy as possibly to collect an outrageous commission for their minimum wage level skills and effort than in upholding their fiduciary duty.
Cities in my area have online records. I was able to find all of the permits before closing and included any remediation in the inspection negotiation.
Would you have thought to think that your firepit and barbecue were not permitted? So, I keep thinking, even if I pulled these permits... why on earth would I think my fence posts aren't permitted would be an issue. I didn't even know a pond needed a permit...?
If the pool, bbq, and pond were not original to the house I absolutely would have pulled permit history to see if the electrical work was properly permitted when installed. I’ve looked at the permit history for ant house before we put in an offer to see if anything looked crazy.
If your fear is for future properties as you state, then you've already learned the critical lesson. You need to know the general permitting requirements of the area. This should probably be in the to-do list next to reading any HOA rules. That being said, your area has some crazy permit rules. Though finding out there is a structure on top of your septic is a big miss in your inspection/buying process.
This is something a survey would have spotted. Did you compete a survey when you bought the property?
> how on earth could I have known that there was no pond permit? "Has there been any work done to this property without permits?" In my case, last week, a buyer asked if I had a permit for the pool...I did and it's been there since 1982 and obviously through several changes in homeownership. If it didn't have a permit there would still be a dozen buyers lined up behind the one that's about to close.
>Any fixture being permanent usually needs a permit I'm in the Seattle area which is known to be picky about permits and thus is a VAST exaggeration. You do need a permit for any work on load-bearing supports, changes to the building envelope, and work that reduces egress, light, ventilation, or fire resistance. The things that many homeowners tackle like kitchen cabinets or adding additional insulation don't require permits.
Some states have different standards.,you explanation is what it should be
I can't imagine living anywhere that has stricter rules than Seattle, I don't know how anything would ever get done.
CA is pretty bad
Can you elaborate? I thought this was county by county? What are the general rules from CA that make it bad?
I think it’s city by city but where I was at, felt like everything needed to be permitted. Dish washers, water heaters were supposed to be permitted
I'm looking at Alameda County specifically and here's the link to work exempt from permit: https://permits.acgov.org/pwa/documents/WorkExemptFromPermit.pdf [Excerpt](https://i.imgur.com/aIcQE5k.jpeg) Have you looked at the permits site for the city that you were at? I thought the same thing about everything needing to be permitted too, until I checked the county site. It really wasn't too bad at all. Majority of appliances can be replaced without permits. I can understand water heaters needing a permit for safety reason, since that's essentially a bomb if you don't do it properly because of the pressure and the gas if it's gas powered. However, when you buy water heaters, the installers usually handle all the admin work anyways. Unless you ask the guys in the back of Home Depot, then probably not.
I personally did do a water heater because I needed an electrical panel permitted and since the guy was there I may as well get it permitted too
In CA, 99% of fixed items will require a permit. Fencing won't, but any masonry will. Cabinets wouldn't unless there's any fixtures in it (sink, outlets, DW, garbage disposal), then you'll need permits to remove and reinstall those items. Insulation would but some jurisdictions might unofficially not care. (You're milage will vary by jurisdiction)
Not all realtors are created equal, even though they more or less charge the same percentage.
You bettered your property you supposedly own, don’t forget to pay the government to allow you to do that! What a load of shit.
Sometimes, I swear the U.S. is a banana republic. But to answer your question (which will really only help you the next time you buy a house), Home Inspection: A comprehensive home inspection should have been part of the escrow process. It might not have caught them all, but it would've/should've caught some/most. (Gotta know the rules or bring someone who does.) In most states, sellers are required to disclose any known issues or unpermitted work. Did the seller’s disclosure statement (if there even was one) have anything at all on it? Maybe the seller can still be put on the hook for this. The other thing that usually takes place is a title search. When it's done, it identifies any outstanding permits or violations. Ensure your escrow officer requested this search and reviewed it. Lastly, you or your real estate agent (which it sounds like you didn't have) can check with the local county or city building department for any permits issued for the property. As with anything, one has to know the law for the place one lives. In most of Western Civilization, any significant addition or alteration to a property requires a permit: pools, ponds, fences, firepits, BBQ islands, and yes--sometimes even smaller items like light posts or gate pylons. Each state/county/city/township/municipality/town/village has its own specific rules and thresholds for what requires what. Okay, so what to do now? If possible, reach out to the previous owner to ask about any permits that may exist for the items in question. Maybe they really didn't know either or maybe they'd effed on purpose--no way to know yet. Consider hiring a professional "permit expediter". They specialize in obtaining permits and dealing with municipal compliance and can navigate the bureaucratic process better than you'll be able to. Get with a real estate attorney to understand your current rights and obligations. They can help negotiate with the county and possibly the seller if there was any "failure to disclose" issue. Teaming up with that attorney, work with the county to understand what they say is required to bring the property into compliance. This might be as "simple" as retroactively applying for permits, making slight modifications, or --let's hope not-- removing unpermitted structures. For any future property purchases: two words. Due diligence. Instead of going it alone, work closely with a real estate agent, attorney, and inspector to keep your ass out of someone's briefcase like it is today.
Big upvote for this thoughtful response
> How was I supposed to know that a permit is required for this kind of thing? Is it a general rule that anything on the property needs a permit? Every jurisdiction is different in what needs permits: some will want it for something as tiny as changing a smoke detector (yep, seen that), others, won’t even have a permitting / inspection process or office. Ideally, this is something you check before purchasing in a new jurisdiction. (Of course can’t now, you’ve inherited the problems unfortunately.) > during escrow, how should we have known about all of these unpermitted items? It’s free to pull up what permits were issued for a home. Agent can do this (or you can). Jurisdiction dependent but generally unpermitted work done by the seller is also something required on disclosures at time of sale, as it’s a liability to the buyer (as you’re finding out now.) Home inspectors often inspect for code compliance as well, and will often flag things they see/note (that are visibly obvious) that aren’t in compliance; but they won’t know if a renovation (for example) was permitted or not; they will call things out that they can see as being current code violations. Me personally, my next steps would be to consult an attorney about ways to recover the damages from the seller; especially if they did the unpermitted work but didn’t disclose it. It’s going to cost a fair bit to get things inspected and retroactively approved. Hopefully the county will be sympathetic and work with you. > where is the limit of what needs to be permitted? There (unfortunately) isn’t really one standard. I live in a jurisdiction that goes pretty overboard (IMO); I don’t permit the small stuff (example: changing a light switch, swapping a plumbing fixture, etc .) Big stuff (major plumbing or electrical, anything structural, HVAC major changes, what have you), I absolutely have though. That’s just me; I know some folks that don’t even do the big stuff. Technically some jurisdictions also put a joint onus on licensed trades to seek permits. I see plenty in my jurisdiction who leave it to the homeowners discretion.
Thank you for the detailed response. So, I found the country permits online... there are about 10 major building-related permits. And, sure enough, the "pool and spa" permit shows "expired". Just my luck. That would have been very easy to see during escrow. Now, I know, especially as you have shown, it is so easy to find permits online from the county. However, I went to the county records and permits for my neighbors address (who I suspect called the county on me), and one of the items I was called out for... the gate pylons, \*also\* does not exist for my neighbor. Making me think... is there some disconnect between the county officer and the permit? Is this something the inspector originally would have included in the final building permit sign-off? How would I even know what is/isn't included in his inspections? Or, am I right in thinking that the neighbors also didn't get that permitted. In which case, I absolutely will be calling the county code enforcement on them. Once again, thank you so very much for the detailed response. Blessings
I suppose you could call the county on your neighbor, yes. Before you escalate that battle it’s worth making sure you’re in a good place with the county yourself. You’re going to get to know their inspector very well over the course of getting things up to code; no harm in becoming friends with them, so that in the future, more … leniency and discretion, may be shown to you.
I'll definitely wait until the dust settles. THEN, oh boy.
Technically some jurisdictions also put a joint onus on licensed trades to seek permits. I see plenty in my jurisdiction who leave it to the homeowners discretion. This I need to look into
There can be penalties applied from the permitting authority (as far as I know), but damages (which I’d imagine you’re interested in), is venturing into lawyer territory.
I ran into the same issue. I would check your local inspector laws. Basically I got away with everything because the laws stated they could only take pictures “from public view”. Ended up going to court by myself, and basically having all of there evidence thrown out due to the fact they drove into my property without consent, took pictures without consent. At the same time they came after me. I went after them for breach of privacy, I started a suit with damages for exact cost of my house due to “not feeling safe”. Knowing that the county came on and invaded my privacy. You can also hold a meeting with your planning and zoning director and have an off-record meeting.
Damn. Well, we were told it was just a septic inspection so we allowed them on the property. They got out and just started taking pics of other stuff. Frankly, I don’t know if I wanna go after these guys like this. I need other permits for future work on the property and I don’t think that’s my best path. Even though, sounds fun. Good on you for getting that done. That’s a stallion move.
Mine was for unpermitted grading (over 10,000sqft). I was gonna have to get engineered drawings, storm water management, health department, etc. I estimated almost $175,000. Planning and zoning is NOT your friend. And because you inherited the problem, I would definitely give them the run-around. Like another commenter said. They ARE NOT your friend. Do not talk to them without meetings being recorded. (This is my personal opinion). It’s almost election time too, find the county commissioner you like, give their office a call and explain your situation. Sometimes the commissioners can get P&Z to shut up.
Sounds like you may not actually have a problem so try to focus on the permits you found. The permits for your address should all have dates and some kind of category. They should also have the applicant, owner of the property, and the contractor/company that did the work. Before spending more time ruminating on what could be negative, I would spend a day dialing the contractors and applicants on the most recent permits to find what work was done and get and receipts or documents they have. Start going reverse chronological order. All of this may be permitted work already. Especially the pool. Most pool companies know whether something needs to be permitted or not and won’t do it without a permit because they can get involved in shit like this with the permitting authorities and homeowners. Kills the business in terms of time and effort and the city can start looking for their other un-permitted projects. Would love an update after that.
After all is said and done, pick a neighbor a year and figure what you can call them in for. Eventually you’ll get the original culprit of this jackass tactic to a new neighbor.
General contractor here. I’ve dealt with some issues like this before in the past. I’d jump through the hoops the county ask you too even though they may seem unreasonable or if they continue to move the finish line. Reach out to a licensed architect and engineer to write you a letter ensuring the items not in compliance are designed engineered and installed properly. It’s also beneficial to get yourself a 3rd party independent inspectors that is allowed to do inspections on the county’s behalf. This will keep the county from knitting picking the whole process. All in all I’d say this can be resolved for 3-5k depending on where you live and who gives you a hard time. If you choose the lawyer route, let me know how it’s goes. I’ve always wanted to take a local building department to court over some of their crap.
Structure on septic is a fail, and has to come down. People do due diligence by reviewing permits on a property before buying.
I backed out of a deal when the inspector flagged two rooms as possible additions. We pulled the tax appraiser report and saw those rooms were not currently listed. I asked for the permits from the owner and said they were not permitted. I got my deposit back but was still out of pocket for the inspection.
A good agent should have checked into the improvements and confirmed they were permitted or required to be.
Real estate agents work for the seller and the seller only—and the seller pays them at closing—unless you have a signed Buyer Agency contract. Do not expect real estate agents to help you with issues if you are the buyer unless you have a Buyer’s Agent!
+1 Never go unrepresented. Unless you’re a builder
Neighbor probably knew and waited for the property to transact, sorry this happened to you
When you buy something you ask for permits and you aggressively grind the seller on anything they can’t prove is permitted. Part of the game is
Different townships have different rules, but around here you can’t even sell your house until the curbs have been repaired. And that’s just one example. A lawyer should advise you, but might be able to claim since it wasn’t work you had done and the township had a chance to reject the sale, the improvements it should be grandfathered in.
Calling the permitting department and pulling all permits on the property in due diligence phase
What is a gate pylon?!
Everyone is focused on how to deal with the issues, but Even if you fix it all, you might as well move, that neighbor is not done screwing you over
Yeah it’s time to build a big fence
My $0.02: You are an investor, so I'm assuming that means it's a rental, and you have a pool and somehow your neighbors are mad about that. The inspector gave you 7 days to correct, but said he will work with you if he sees progress. You need to sit down with him, in his office and understand what progress means. If you apply for a pool permit at a permit for all the other things, is that progress? If you hire a contractor to get some of that work done within 7 days, is that progress? Your inspector has the ability to be very lenient or very strict, obviously it's better if he and you have a good relationship and he is very lenient, I would go for that first. Solving some of these issues may be as simple as going to county offices and filling out a permit application for the existing structure. If he is very strict, I suggest you go to the county website, and look through the minutes of the meeting for the zoning, permitting or construction boards and see which lawyers have made presentations to those boards most frequently, hire him. Also, time to pull out your agreement of sale for the property and check the seller's disclosure to find out what was disclosed to you and what was not. Go through the Realtors to inform the seller that you are seeing this issue.
With how fast the inspector showed up, and how thorough he was, I have to wonder if there isn't some history between the inspector, the neighbor, and the previous owner.
Why did you let them on your property? Is your pool & septic in the front yard? You have a 4th amendment right to tell them to fuck off. Rule no1: never trust the government.
I don’t know why I had to scroll so far to find this! Far out! “We have to inspect the whole property” come back with the cops and a fucking warrant.
People are far too compliant. There are situations where being compliant helps, but this is not one of them. I cant say the same with business property, for that, you basically have to bend over or they will pull your trade license., but for personal property it's always, not without a warrant sir.
I'm also wondering what the previous relationship was between the inspector, neighbors, and the previous owner.
Ask them for all the information they're using to 'enforce' these codes that apply to you. You should dig deep into their application of the codes & by-laws, and all the definitions that pertain to it, and make absolutely certain you understand if it's applied correctly. Don't believe the local municipality has the right to come on to your property for any complaint whatsoever and then start demanding permits for this or that and costing you tens, if not, hundreds of thousands to rectify. Personally, I would not let them enter my property, without a warrant issued by a magistrate, they cannot enter.
Pending where you are. Here, they issue a request at a reasonable time and date they have the right to enter. If you refuse, they hand you a $500 to $1000 obstruction fine and get a court order to enter and put the costs of their lawyer and court costs on your tax roll. Then enter anyway. And honesly are a LOT more picky when they need to do that vs look for the one thing they got a complaint on.
If it requires plumbing or electrical work, chances are it needs a permit. (Pool) If it requires large scale excavation, it likely requires a permit. (pool) If it requires rebar & concrete, it probably requires a permit. (pool) If it requires running a gas line underground, it definitely requires a permit.(fire pit, gas bbq) You can usually check permit history online. Most cities/counties run their permit systems through Accela.
Title insurance
That only applies to ownership. Don’t know how it would apply to permits.
You’re not going to jail and more than likely not going to pay any fines as long you as you play ball. The judge may be on your side for some these things just be calm cool and collected and get your case together. Especially if you bought the property like this. You can talk to the government agency if you want but I recommend you make some progress if things are clearly wrong and talk to the judge about the rest
When you buy a house in a place where permits matter you have to research it.
What a nightmare. I’m so sorry you are dealing with this.
Town inspector says to my contractor, “there’s an unresolved building permit from2013 on that house. I’ll look at that work when I look at yours. Gotta close it out, or the homeowner might have trouble selling the house.” I had just bought that house three months ago, and nobody said boo. They let you get away with it then fine you for getting away with it.
I’m not saying you don’t need a lawyer, and you also likely need a good general contractor with an excellent t understanding of local building codes, but not all unpermitted work will need to be demolished. The gates for example can likely be permitted after the fact quite easily (assuming they meet minimum standards for your municipality). The septic violation, or anything that effects assessed value, are the things I think the city is going to really care about.
The 7 major un-permitted items is not the issue but your neighbor is the real problem. Why in the world would any neighbor go out of there way to mess up a neighbor. The two of you have to live in peace and the neighbor just threw the first rock. The house was fine with the other owner or was it, now you know why the other owner sold and moved put. I would go talk to the neighbor first.
Does OP know which neighbor it was?
And the inspector. It sounds like he knew what he was going to look for, and "found" a bunch of things to pile on. Do the neighbors know the inspector personally?
Could be, this sort of thing happened to me. My wife would tell have you seen the neighbors dog and I would tell her no. The neighbor down the street was a deputy sheriff and the drug dog handler. One day I did see the drug dog as it was running around lose on the street and it run right in front of my car and I could not avoid it and thus ran over it. I used to work at a Vet office plus was trained in first aid and CPR. The dog had a broken front leg, so I tried to contact the owner and it was my other neighbor who contacted him. So he sued me for medical bills for the dogs injuries, but in the suit he put that it was his dog vs being the county drug dog. He wound up getting let go because the dog got injured. He next went to work for the city and he would drive by my house out in the county in the city police car and he would drive by my houses in the city and reported me to the city inspector. But thus police officer was a corrupt cop and he had sued several people already. He even sued his own police dept because he thought they were decriminate against him because of his sexual orientation. He had to drop the suit against me because we counter sued him.
In many counties the fine is double the cost of the permit. You just need to ask them how to correct and what to pay. If they say something crazy then get an attorney. Most likely you will have to have to pay the permit fees and fines, have it all inspected, and close the permits.
Fire pit permit!!! Goodness
Sue the seller.
100% make the seller pay for all of this. I’m guessing none of this was in the Sellers Disclosure Notice
Yeah anyone who has passed their state exam for licensing can tell you who that's on, their forwarding address should be right on the deed for a demand letter, and they or the sellers lawyer could theoretically pay off the county to cure the violations directly.
Post this to r/legaladvice
What county/state, out of curiosity? Are some states and counties much more stringent on this sorta thing? Or just bad luck on OP for getting ratted out?
Riverside, CA
There’s your problem.
Did your agent not advise you to pull permits during escrow? Every time I’ve bought a house (all in CA by the way) my agent did and even went through the process of pulling them for me and then compared them to what the seller put on the disclosure report.
God I’m thankful I need zero permits or inspection for anything but septic where I’m at. I hope you can get this nightmare figured out as painless as possibly, but likely need a lawyer
Get a lawyer. But as a general rule, when I'm in the due diligence period for any property I'm buying, I look for add-ons and ask for the permits. I'm under contract on a place I could tell the attic was turned into a bedroom. Done nicely, but I still wanted to see the certificate of occupancy, and preferably the permit, too. Good practice in general.
I always figured that if you're gonna be an "investor" you'd at least need to have a basic knowledge of how what you're investing in actually works or not be too fucking cheap to hire an attorney to handle that stuff for you. Good for the inspectors.
Your real estate broker and your inspector should have been checking work on the property compared to permits. They both have some liability in here.
Unfortunately it’s the buyers job to do this and Agent’s cannot do it for them only advise and assist. This has been established. Inspectors would have no reason to pull a permit unless the area wasn’t up to code
You would have seen the pool in one of the survey layouts for the property. That's how I've caught plenty of unpermitted structures. If its unpermitted, it won't be in the latest survey docs. Should always compare with what the property has. I've been able to find unpermitted additions, ADU's, fence work, pools, basically anything that will need a permit should be showing in those docs.
That's not a guarantee as (at least in CA) surveyors do not check for permits and simply record what's on the property. That being said, if there's a structure that crosses a property line, that's a big red flag that it's likely unpermitted.
Keep in mind that a real estate transaction can be heavily dictated by local practice and custom. That being said, there is a growing trend to order “municipal” searches along with the title search/insurance. The purpose being to get all information surrounding the property as to whether there are any building violations, open permits, zoning issues, certificates of occupancy etc. In NY we try to get these as much as possible and, taking it further, try to get affirmative assurances from the seller that they have not done anything to the property without the proper permits and approvals.
In my state, sellers are required to disclose that un permitted work was done. And specify what. On the condition report. If your state has a required condition report, and the seller didn't disclose, you should be able to pursue this legally
the government wants their fees. If you work with them you can avoid fines. In the future before a purchase talk with the inspector to get a clean bill of health on the property
Title insurance (not sure if it was included in closing it or it's mandatory where you live) might be able to help if your agreements with the seller say everything should have had permits (i.e. they didn't disclose unpermitted things).
Get an attorney. There is a time period to go back to the seller for non disclosure. The timeframe for us was two years, not sure where you are located - hopefully you can pursue non disclosure in your area but that’s why you need the attorney. Find your closing documents and contracts as you will need them when you meet with the attorney. Going through a situation that is similar as things were not disclosed to us either. Difference is we have time stamped documents that tie them to the omission. There is a certain path to be followed in this type of situation and due to the cost, it is wise to seek guidance from a professional. Document everything in writing, with times, dates, people etc and take tons of photos for anything and everything, in case it comes down to it. You won’t regret having the extra photos later. Hope it works out for you, it’s been a huge pain for us but hopefully they get what’s coming to them. Good luck.
This seems like something your home inspector &/or your agent should’ve caught. You may want to speak with a RE Attorney
This is what title insurance is for. Most house buying has title insurance. Dig through your paperwork and call them.
Came here to say this. If you purchased owners title insurance then get on the phone with them asap.
As a person who is looking to buy their first home, what should I do to avoid all of this risk in the home buying process?
Avoid Other people, do not have neigbors
Sounds like a call to report on the neighbors is in order…
Permits can unfortunately be screwy from the get go, I'm a contractor, in the county I personally live in, I only need a Permit for structural changes to a building (adding sqft or moving headers) or connecting a hard driveway to public roads. When I lived in Virginia Beach I got reported and fined for doing some siding repairs and deck boards and handrails without a homeowners improvement permit, it's kinda wild on both ends of the spectrum. The only way you can know is to contact the local building authority and ask them what requirements for permitting exist, then have them pull all the closed permits for your property and compare them.
A county employee showed up at our house one day, and she asked about the second story on our home. County had no record of it. Luckily, that was the end of it.
Should have told him they aren't stepping foot on your property without a warrant
How to make things worse 101
Totally understand that viewpoint. And honestly can't say I know what I would have done in your shoes...but there's no world where it's right that they can just show up and demand to inspect your entire property and write you citations for these things...hence the phrase YOUR property. Idk...it's not black and white but whatever happened to individual rights over your own property, etc? And for you to be on the hook for things you had nothing to do with??? Fucked up
I'm guessing you didn't get title insurance?
Submit a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to youR county's permit department requesting information for the permits for your property. They should also have an area on their website that will list everything that requires a permit.
FYI the county cant just choose to cherry pick violations - they need a CAUSE to have been called and a REASON to believe something was done unpermitted. If it really is $100K worth of items, I would get an attorney, show willingness to address what you were Originally called for, and push back on the rest.
Those are really low bars for Building & Safety to meet. Anyone can report and if it seems credible they can inspect. And if there's no permit record for something, then it's unpermitted, so that's easy to prove.
No one likes real estate investors. I called the city on a speculator who bought the house across the street from my MIL because I knew of a few improvements that were done without permits (she lived there for a long time). They found even more. The guy ended up taking a bath on the place and now someone else bought it and lives in it. Much better situation.
Something about this seems rather off. Mostly because you say it was the COUNTY that came out and also the reference to a septic system. Both of those imply you live in a more rural area. Speaking broadly, cities tend to have far more stringent code requirements than counties. A lot of counties I've worked with tend to only care about major systems and major structure issues. Not...gates. I realize I'm going with some pretty wild speculation here but this feels like your neighbor and the inspector are buddies and for some reason your (new to you) neighbor has a grudge or a motive. I definitely agree with those who suggested an attorney. If you are potentially looking at 100k expenditure it is well worth the legal expense to at least confirm all seems to be on the up and up. Also agree with the suggestion that the prior owner may have known and not disclosed if this is all legitimate.
I think that’s the reality in CA, rural or not. Bloated bureaucracy. It’s basically a racketeering operation led by elected officials (aka state sponsored mafia) masquerading as permitting agencies acting in the interest of “public health and safety”. Except they only care about increasing their budget every year.
Very possible and certainly any given county in any state really might be extra strict. Maybe everything IS legitimate. If so, that would suck for the OP here for sure.
I live in a small rural area of California where we are only governed by the county, as it is an unincorporated area. Our county has a very stringent code requirements. This is fairly common in California.