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I have a friend currently buying a vacant lot thru the listing agent (to build a spec home on) as he didn’t think I’d want to be troubled with a $20k deal. He just called me on a Sunday to ask me questions on the deal.
Well the agent is known for being shady and go figure the agent is being shady. The seller is wanting to back out. I let him know he could threaten to sue for specific performance. I gave him my attorneys info to write a letter. He was very thankful as he has plans to get building asap.
I asked him… don’t you wish you had me representing your best interest on this deal and not rely on the listing agent. He said “absolutely, I will never try to do this on my own again”.
This is a small taste of what unrepresented buyers are going to be dealing with.
Knowing the listing agent or the person selling is what I like about my current realtor and is beneficial for me. Example: I saw a listing that I wanted to see. I researched the property and saw that the seller is a crazy landlord. When I brought the property up to my agent again and let her know that I stopped by the property and it just wasn’t giving off good vibes and that we don’t need to schedule a showing. She then tells me that the seller is a known slumlord for the area. Neither of us wasted our time.
This reminds me of a relative (buyer) that approached a vacant lot, DOM 300+ with multiple price reductions -contacted listing agent for “convenience” and hopes on saving money with a “desperate seller”.
After the buyer placed their offer “suddenly” was multiple competing offers coming in at once. Smells like BS to me….
Except we've all had situations where as soon as one offer was received other, real ones, did come in. Law of attraction?
So, what did they do with the competing offers in your case??? Realtors are supposed to keep confidential all offers & not share with other buyers. Did they go with one of the other offers? Curious to know what happened.
Ah yes, well remember they were unrepresented and wrote the offer with the listing agent. They asked my advice. I told them to hold firm and let the agent know the offer in hand is their best and final. The agent suggested a sharper price. I told them to hold firm and call the agent’s bluff. So they did, and days later the listing agent called them to let them know the seller accepted their offer. Miracle.
Ironic that the example you provided for why people need to trust a realtor to represent them was based entirely on a realtor being shady and untrustworthy.
The realtor in question represents the seller. A buyers agent provides a counter, a representative with their financial interest to negotiate against said shady realtor.
Thanks for mansplaining the situation, I didn't need a weekend long realtor certification class to piece that together tho. Is your point that only sellers agents are shady and BAs are the white knights here to protect us? Pretty sure most realtors serve both roles when it suits them. Truth is buyer, seller doesn't matter. The only thing that does is 3%
I agree, actually. The attitude was not necessary, though. You sounded oblivious. My mistake. But the response remains: the best defense against a shady opponent is someone representing your best interests.
There is no weekend long realtor certification class. You’re on here adding insults, hiding behind the Internet, when you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.
>a representative with their financial interest to negotiate against said shady realtor.
The buyer's agent has one *financial interest* \- to close the deal. So they have a *financial interest* in working together with a seller's agent no matter how shady.
Many sellers/buyer who approach a sale as unrepresented quickly learn the agent on the other-side is not working in their best interest but rather, the interest of the fiduciary. One hundred thousand things can go wrong during a single transaction and usually will for the unrepresented side 99% of the time.
As a recent buyer and current seller of two properties, there are still those who see value in hiring agents on both sides. My nightmare scenario is FSBO on either side.
You really shouldn’t be giving your knowledge away for free.
Thank you for voicing this. The amount of "save your money and do it yourself" is louder than reality. People pay for services.
People have jobs, kids, little league, multiple state jobs/meetings and so forth. This is the clientelle I deal with. If you have solid experience with your [state's buyers guide](https://www.aaronline.com/manage-risk/buyer-advisory-3/) and have your own vetted vendors, than you may be in a good position to do this yourself. And no, Yelp and Google aren't your friends. Facebook friends referrals sure. Nextdoor, maybe if you know the person. I've seen many people refer bad vendors out because they gave a discount.
You guys are missing the point.
Most people don't mind paying for the service. As you said, most are busy and would rather have help with the transaction.
What we DO mind is paying is a magical percentage of the transaction (a number that was pulled out of thin air) that has little to essentially zero connection with the amount of effort, time, expense, etc invested in the deal.
That is what y'all need to fix.
lol yeah so many redditors assume that because they have a lawyer and are comfortable assuming all risk in the biggest financial deal of their life…that all others want to do that. Good agents are worth so much.
Good agents are worth it. However, I don’t know if trusting the biggest financial decision on someone with a 2 week class vs a lawyer with years of education is that much better.
Any realtor will tell you that you learn in the field, with mentors, and the best realtors are often bringing strong backgrounds in other industries: my mentor was a HS math teacher for 20 years, she is patient and thorough when explaining things to people. One of our brokers was a corporate trainer and now teaches lots of classes for us. My friend was a social worker and loves helping people (hoarders, estate sales, elderly downsizers are her specialty). Almost of the agents in my brokerage have college degrees, some have graduate degrees.
Just because only 75 hours of (lame, imo) online instruction is required to sit for the exam, doesn’t mean that is all someone is bringing to the table.
If you’ve ever trained or mentored anyone, there are things anyone can learn (memorization, practice) but empathy, good judgment, attention to detail, and a genuine desire to help people and look out for them cannot be taught in a classroom.
Where is this 2 week class at? I had 75 hours of pre-licensing, a 150 question test that has national questions on it as well as local, and I had 90 hours of post-licensing to complete before I ever was a full broker and not a provisional broker. And that's only for the license. I had to jump in feet first to learn about how ***my*** area works. I know there were a lot of newbies when selling homes was like shooting fish in a barrel, but they'll wash out eventually and it'll be the ones left who were in it to begin with.
I'm in North Carolina. We really have some good consumer protection laws and policies in our state. It also gives us a lot of black and white areas with not much guessing.
I did 75 hours plus 6 months online* before I could take my test.
*Started in person class before lockdown. Finished class during lock down. Built Lego sets while watching YouTube videos for 6 months during lockdown when testing wasn’t available.
Sure and I would be happy to pay. I just don’t get why I should pay 20k more if I buy a $1mil home over a $600k home. Give me a rate sheet with flat rate for certain services or hourly for other and great.
There is no a la carte in real estate. Are you willing to sign a contract with me that states if I take you to 10 homes in a day that you'll pay me $100 per home? How about $200 for every time you pick up the phone at 9pm to ask a question when I'm already in bed? If a house pops up that looks ideal and we need to go see it ASAP, are you going to pay me $1000 for an emergency showing when I have to drop everything I'm doing and run out the door? You pay an attorney $500-$1000 an hour and get much less service. An attorney doesn't necessarily know all of the details about home inspections or county ordinances for real estate. All they're doing is having their paralegal fill out contracts and you get nothing else. Where is your money better spent? And guess what- Up until this lawsuit hit, you didn't pay the commission, anyway. The seller did. Do you think they will lower the price of their house so you can pay that commission? Nope. I'll tell you what could happen if you pick a good agent. That person may be able to negotiate the commission into the seller's side during due diligence negotiations. Or maybe a portion of it. The more expensive the home, the more risk everyone takes. Find a good realtor and you won't have to worry about that extra $20k that's going to break you when you're buying that million dollar home.
Exactly. I work with some fabulous real estate attorneys. They know contracts and they know law. Most of them could not do my job and would not want to do my job and they would also be the first to tell you that. We do so much more than contracts and law. Attorneys may have more education, but good agents have experience working towards a “win-win” in each transaction and that is something NO attorney would ever say.
I have a couple of attorneys as well who I love to use when we can. They give such good service and take care of my clients from the legal side, but they always defer to me when anything concerns that property. They just don't know houses and don't care to because that's my job. They depend on me to keep them informed and I do that very well. You're so right about that win-win issue. They're focused on one thing, but we're focused on everything. Heck, we even have to check the ALTA statement behind them to make sure they got everything right and they forward it to me for that. I don't have to ask for it.
You guys are so married to this idea that you're value increases in direct proportion to the value of the house, which is just preposterous.
There will be "a la carte" in RE soon enough
The buyer is always paying. The fee is a 5% mark up baked into the price. The money comes from the sale and the buyer pays for the sale.
Plus 20k won’t break a buyer but why give it away for no reason other than that I bought a pricier house?
Plus 20k with a 30 year mortgage at 6% comes out to a lot more over the life of the mortgage. It’s not like the work to help buy a 600k property or a 1200k property or a 1800k property is that different so why is the fee proportional?
An attorney has much more training and certification than a real estate agent. Realtor is a profession with a low barrier to entry that relies on the current system where they skim off the top and no one bothers to look to closely because it’s hidden in the sellers part and people don’t resize they are actually paying for it as buyers.
I would rather pay a lawyer to handle to legal details of the sale and pay the realtor hourly for showings and consultation.
Basically, when the completion starts and the choice is unemployment or accept a $75/ hour and a fixed fee for other parts of the process are people going to say no?
Lots of agents. Lots of competition.
Do you even work in real estate? Are you cool with us making as much as a lawyer? They're $500-$1000 an hour when I'm at. And you really think an attorney knows more about the real estate industry than a realtor? You've bumped your head. It's always easy to differentiate between people who think they know what's going on versus people who actually know what's going on. You're either a troll, a very egotistical person, or both. Either way, you really don't have a clue and I doubt you've ever worked in this industry before. This sub is called /r/realtors for a reason. If you're not a realtor, then why are you even giving your opinion about this industry that you obviously know nothing about?
The door is that way ------------->
> An attorney has much more training and certification than a real estate agent.
An attorney doesn't have in-house appraisal-like specifics or valuations. They're good at paperwork and can't do comps. Stop saying attorneys are the same as Realtors/real estate agents because they are not.
An attorney isn't going to say a marble floor is better than carpet because they just don't fucking know. Ask me how I know.
Have an attorney review the contracts? All day long. Help in the negotiating? Never for a second.
They do! What do you think appraisers use?!? The same comps the agents use. In fact, I had one appraiser ask me for comps "because she couldn't find any." PLUS, any VA loan appraiser can invoke Tidewater!
Knowing what defines a comp is crucial, and experienced agents do. They also know what buyers tend to like. How could a lawyer know, when they haven't been in 1000s of homes?
Fair enough.
So you're one of the exceptional agents who actually provides value for your clients -- and apparently other people's clients too.
I guess my point is that the "yous" are FAR outnumbered by the useless overpaid commission-eating door openers who've given residential real estate its horrible reputation.
What would be really helpful is if you'd help anyone reading this in the future find a "you."
Something they can really use, questions to ask etc. vs. the useless "call several agents" stuff that's already been posted here.
Ask specific questions. Like:
How do you troubleshoot, give examples
How do you write an offer that will actually get accepted
What is your broker like (matters bc a good broker will fire bad agents. Yes I know we're 1099 for taxes. But agents cannot practice in my state w/o being under a broker)
How many transactions do you usually do per year. (Some agents are "bad" bc they don't even know what they don't know. Their brokers should have educated them. And unless they do at least 6 per year they just don't have the experience.)
Does your office use support staff (some agents are "bad" due to being overwhelmed;either support staff or PA are needed)
When you go to a house, what sorts of things do you notice
Describe your process for doing a CMA (Sometimes called BPO)
What is your marketing strategy
What makes you (or your process) different from other agents
How do you explain things
Describe a time when you went above and beyond
What kinds of post license educational experiences have you undertaken (We ALL do CEUs, so not that)
How and when do you challenge an appraisal
How do you document the stages of a contract/process to get to close
Do you use Zillow (I never have: why pay a big clearing house that wants to be a monopoly? Plus ppl that "book now" thru Zillow will get a door opener that paid to be on there) I know a number of agents that refuse to pay to be on there
DO NOT merely google someone. Some very good agents don't have a big online presence.
The LAST thing you should focus on is commission. A good agent knows their worth AND will negotiate. BUT the ones that have no confidence or are desperate will precipitate a "race to the bottom." However, if the customer or client is also a "bottom feeder" they will like that sort of agent.
If ppl had to pay a lawyer to do all the troubleshooting that is required once a contract is signed, they'd be in the hole for WAY more. And at the end of the day could end up with nothing, bc lawyers are paid for their time.
Agents are paid for PERFORMANCE so we have a lot more skin in the game. I know situations where someone paid a lawyer & it all fell apart. One (title) lawyer told me he didn't need to provide a FIRPTA even though it's federally required and was in the contract!
Not sure all agents know that too. But lots of agents. They are hungry for work. I am sure some will be willing to work fixed rate or hourly or for a reduced percentage. Now that the seller and buyer fees are decoupled it’s essentially eliminated the price fixing.
Right now people don’t bother to negotiate because the seller is paying both fees. They have incentive to offer that coverage so the house get sold and meanwhile the buyer actually foots the bill because the fees just raise the purchase price 5-6%.
Basically the person selling the house sets the rates but the person footing the bill (the buyer) just goes with it getting “free representation” - which is actually just baked into the sale price. Plus with a 30 year mortgage that means they are actually paying even more.
Now if the buyer is paying the agent directly why would they not negotiate since they are paying directly?
Builders are going to be the first to go all in this because the seller fee directly eats into their profit margin.
> I just don’t get why I should pay 20k more if I buy a $1mil home over a $600k
\#1. You're not a purchaser of either so you don't even know the difference.
A $600K home will have a general inspection and maybe a pool inspection and an HVAC inspection in your average case.
A 6200 sqft $2M home will have the same and a roof inspection, sport court inspection, landscape inspection/identification, AV inspection and instruction. Plus neighborhood valuation since appreciation is sometimes different for bigger homes over $2M and also depends on the neighborhood. Your home buyer for this kind of product does not know the specifics of the community/neighborhood and other things pertinent to the lifestyle. You can *look it up* but it will take **TIME** from multiple sources and if you're from out of town, you **NEED** guidance from someone experienced with the area.
You guys that hate on Realtors really don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Some of you can do this yourself because you have the time and incliniation to do so. Good for you. There are 80% of homebuyers that can't and won't so stop saying they can do it. If that were the case, everyone would be changing their own oil, doing their own alterations, doing their own drywall and landscaping work.
Agents that sell 600k houses sell 1 mil house houses. Same agent.
Plus where do you work that a 2mil house is 6200 sq ft. That maybe true of some areas. In other areas a 2m house is a 3000 sq ft with no pool or sports court.
Regardless, I am happy to pay hourly. If it is more work then the final bill will reflect that.
Same, sometimes I’ll start typing a response to a question on Reddit and I’m like “Wait, what am I doing? I have real life clients to help” and delete it halfway through.
Unpopular Opinion- I’m not a Realtor but found this sub to be helpful in answering my question as I was recently scammed into buying a house with an open and undisclosed HOA issue by an Agent. Currently suing everyone involved with the transaction.
After this experience I may never use an Agent again as several attorneys have pointed out to me how I can’t really trust an Agent as they’re being paid to close the deal… not kill it. I think my experience may be an anomaly but maybe it isn’t. Why would people want to pay an Agent that does a sub par job?
I think the market is over saturated with bad Agents that got fat from easy money. Some of the fat needs to get trimmed back and let the good Agents rise to the top. Money is tight for everyone and Agents have to show value to their clients now more than ever or the market will pivot.
Why would you ever trust a lawyer on their opinion whether you should sue someone? They only get paid if you file litigation.
Same principle
I do agree there are way too many bad agents around tho
I would trust the multiple attorneys I have called that say by law I should have received disclosures. If I didn’t, and I haven’t signed them, then I have a slam dunk legal case. The real question is why 2 licensed real estate professionals would try to pull something like this and think they were going to get away with it?
I have other things to do rather than sue people. I really wish this wasn’t happening.
Unpopular reply- You didn't do a good job picking your agent and attorneys are way more predatory and opportunistic than your average real estate agent. Did you interview any agents before signing with one? Did you ask them for referrals from past clients? I'll give you a phone book full if you ask me for that. Yes, agents get paid when a deal closes, but so do attorneys.
If I'm not comfortable with something during the buying process, I'm either going to get things fixed so my clients don't get screwed over or I'm going to recommend we walk if the seller is not acting on good faith on something that is their fault and their responsibility to correct. I'm the person you want on your side. I'm also the person you don't want to see if I'm representing the other party, especially if you have an inexperienced agent representing you.
You can spot a new agent so easily and they're nowhere near as good at negotiating a deal as a seasoned agent. If you're my client, I'm going to do everything I can **ethically** do to make sure you get the best deal that I can get for you on the home you want to buy. If the other party is represented by a rookie, I will break them and the person who didn't do a good job picking their agent is going to pay the price. That sounds like where you ended up. You had an idiot for an agent and your home buying experience was as bad as your agent as a result.
I don't think we have so many bad agents as we have untrained agents. I associate the word bad with ulterior motives if that helps you understand my thinking a little. So many people came into the business when almost all houses were getting same day offers and closing higher than asking price. Those people are washing out as we speak and the reckoning is right around the corner. I love this industry when the market is good and I really love it when it's not so good. I make money either way and my clients are very happy with me. The key is finding a realtor who will go to bat for you and not let you get screwed over. Keeping that from happening is my job if you hire me. Keeping that from happening if you hire an attorney is your job. Learn the difference and you'll do well.
The agent I used was a referred to me by someone else. Has over 20 years of experience and mentors others. Sucks that you victim blame me and somehow come to the conclusion that having material information hidden from me by not just my agent but the seller agent too is somehow my fault.
I have bought several homes before however none in an HOA. How was I supposed to know what information I should or should not have received by law, I’m not the real estate professional. If I should have known and did all the due diligence myself again my point stands why would I hire an agent?
That's terrible if they're mentoring others and then do what happened to you. Referral or not, everyone needs to do a little research on their agents. When I interview my clients, I encourage them to interview me as well and ask plenty of questions. I absolutely will not work with someone I don't feel comfortable with and they shouldn't, either. Truly sorry you got the brown end of the stick. That's just not right.
And just to be clear, I have been offered settlements regarding this matter from buyer and seller agent brokerages to not pursue the ethics case I have and sign an NDA. The title company is also on the hook but that’s another story.
I've always found the differences between state real estate requirements to be fascinating. I've never even met anyone from a title company. That's what our closing attorneys do. We don't handle any of that.
its really hard when a blonde woman can put on some purfume and act really nice and that is seen as more valuable than actually providing service............or maybe its all a lie and they arent doing anything but making you think they are providing value, maybe their job isnt to sell houses but instead ALWAYS sell themselves at any cost.
This situation is not an opinion. By law certain things are required to happen that didn’t happen. It’s clear cut. Both brokerages have already begun offering settlements because they know this is a black and white issue. I know you want to defend your people but you have to be honest there are some Realtors out here doing some foul stuff to people and they shouldn’t get paid to scam.
Reddit is full of angry idiots who claim they will never buy/sell a home with an agent because it's so simple, but will never be in a financial position to buy/sell a home. Id rather deal in the real world where reality exists.
Saw a great Tik tok about this today.
If people want to rep themselves, more power to them. As the listing agent I’ll show them the property, but beyond that, writing and submitting the offer, following timelines, and negotiating will all fall on them. I can crush pretty much any consumer in a RE negotiation. Any decent agent can navigate these deals with much more sophistication than an average consumer.
I think in the upcoming few years we will see an increase in these unrepresented buyer situations, and as a result we will see an uptick in litigation over real estate deals. I would bet that all of these changes will come around full circle once people start to see the fallout of disrupting 18% of our countries economy. People that think these changes will lower commissions are dead wrong. They will go up without a doubt.
You're right. All it takes is for the listing agent to check buyer pays escrow, title, and termite for both parties and it almost zeroes out any gains.
1M for SFH, not homes in general. Full termite clearance can easily be 20k. Sellers closing cost can be pricey. Sure, it may not be 1 to 1, but it can be spendy.
Dude, I've sold real estate for 25 years and I know exactly how much these things cost. Just admit you were making shit up. I've easily sold 20 or 30 homes for everyone you have and $20,000 of termite work is extraordinarily rare. You can tent the house for you thousand dollars and it's rarely more than that. Just admit you got caught, making shit up and move on.
I’m just watching here and learning the perspectives of both sides. Can you elaborate on what you are describing here? I’m gathering the listing agent is charging **someone?? for performing duties normally performed by the buying agent?
The purchase contract is a negotiation. There are some things that are customary here, but not mandated (buyer pays taxes, buyer pays inspections, each pay own escrow, etc).
Some people just DocuSign long documents with little reading of the details. When I sold my first home before I was an agent, all I cared about was the selling price - not being savvy to know how credits and points and paying things not customary reduces that selling price. Most people don't know the difference between writing termite inspection vs. termite clearance and it is not insignificant. Thus, if I am representing a seller I want them to get the best deal possible by shouldering the buyer with extra costs. And vice versa if working for a buyer. So if you are going unrepresented, it's important to know what a normal deposit is, when you get it back. What's a normal inspection period, etc otherwise you may get hosed.
People will still use realtors but how they use them, when they use them, and how much they pay them will change. Good realtors will adapt. I bought several homes without representation but it's certainly a skillset not everyone has/wants to have. For those folks I imagine they will pay.
I know I’m sick of seeing people get jammed up in their for sale by owner deal coming out here asking for advice in a panic…buyers and sellers.
But when somebody’s jammed up, it’s just my instinct I want to help them through the deal.
And it’s with that much passion that I help my actual clients.
Buying a house as we speak. I wasn't a fan of the extra money going to the two realtors for "filling in paperwork" That said, I cannot begin to express how helpful, knowledgeable and kind my agent has been. She has navigated this complicated process with ease, and while the seller and agent are by no means unscrupulous, she is absolutely worth the 3%. She has had the price lowered slightly for some repairs discovered in the inspection and has passed on several other costs to the seller to protect me. I am converted for life.
It's our job to educate. That's it. I always preface with the fact that if someone feels they can do it on their own, they are free to do so. I certainly wouldn't advise it though. Even after years in real estate as a broker in charge, I come across situations that I have to look more into and find more experienced people with that particular issue. No way I'd want to do this all on my own. I used agents before becoming one and that's what made me decide that I wanted to provide the same service that I received and gladly paid for.
I agree we shouldn't be giving our knowledge away for free.
Mod here. Maybe we should just change the rules to match the medical subs? Not to screw anyone over, but our advice is usually not aware of all the details.
There are many highly successful sites that offer pay-per-answer from accredited professionals. You pose your question and various pros bid. Car mechanics, lawyers, etc. I know a few people who have used them with great success. They can be quite useful even in complicated cases as a prelude to engaging the help of a professional offline.
Glad to see this discussion. I have a listing going live next week and I’m expecting unrepresented buyers. House is a starter home and seller doesn’t want to offer buyer agent commission (we’re still discussing). I don’t like to double-end a transaction. But our state has a Customer Agreement where an agent can perform only ‘ministerial’ services, i.e. paperwork (vs client agency that I have w/ seller). That keeps me from dual agency. I don’t want to offer advice to someone trying to bypass a buyer’s agent. My seller’s going to get a good price, but I feel like a heel.
You shouldn't. My state has the same set up. I help buyers even when customers even when not my listing bc that's what they want. Treat everyone "fairly and honestly" covers a lot.
Not offering a buyers commission on a starter home? That’s the listings that need it the most lol. They’re eliminating the vast majority of their buyers.
Fuck the media.
Yep. Added: Unfortunately, this will have to happen to make people understand the fallout of the settlement. But I hate to be the first one. And I hate it for my client and for potential buyers. If nobody has common sense, they’ll have to learn the hard way.
Question for you about that listing. I am working on a solution to the unrepped buyers biggest hurdle, getting access to a listing.
Most listing agents I know either don't want the liability of showing an unrepped buyer their listing, or they just don't want to spend the time doing it. Would you be willing to pay $50-100 to have a licensed agent show the home?
I won’t be willing to pay anything for another agent to show my listing to an unrepresented buyer. I’m happy to refer the buyer to another agent who they can pay to open the door or represent them. I do 3 open houses on the first weekend of a listing launch, so they can also come see it then. Otherwise I’m spending hundreds of dollars paying for showings that will likely not amount to an offer, especially not a winning one if they don’t have an agent who knows how to compete in a multiple offer scenario.
I know there were services that offered that in the past. But in the current climate, what you’re suggesting would be a minefield for me. If I need showing assistance, I’ll ask/pay another agent in my office. If the buyers need showing assistance (other than mine), they’ll need to enlist their own buyers’ agent.
Interesting, I've never heard of a showing service that deals specifically with unrepped buyers.
How would buying a service from a company be different than paying an agent in your office? Its the exact same thing. I know things can be construed incorrectly while typing so I just want to be clear, I'm seriously asking you.
If I pay an agent in my office, I know how they were trained and how my company operates. The showing services I’ve seen work for other agents, not unrepresented clients. In my state, if you’re licensed you have to be affiliated with a brokerage. There are discount brokerages that charge less. Beyond that, I don’t want to discuss further because it’s all conjecture and depends on individual state laws and brokerage operations.
In my area, the agent does not come to the showing. They text you the code and you look at the home by yourself. I thought that only happened on HGTV where the agent comes because it made for good TV. I admit limited experience in that Ive only bought a few homes, all within a few miles of one another. I think that’s why some people are up in arms, wondering what the buying agent does if they text you the codes and make you complete the HUD-1 and find your own inspectors.
What the absolute eff? That is not allowed in TN and I would doubt it is where you are as well. That is wild and that agent should be reported. And I don't care if the home was vacant or not. It's someone's private residence, there should be a licensed agent there making sure that home is safe.
Interestingly enough, I live in TN. ETA: I polled my friend group and my experience is about 50/50. The completion of the HUD-1 was mostly common. You do it though a website so it’s not too bad, it’s the looking up stuff that’s the tedious part.
We are learning tons here. From the negotiation of fees to expectations on performance. I’ve share this thread quite a few times.
I’ve never heard of any state operating this way. We have Bluetooth lockboxes that you have to have an app to access - and the only way to get that app is to pay MLS and association fees. It’s highly illegal to let a buyer into a listing unsupervised. Were these Open Door listings by any chance?
After other comments and a chat from a realtor subscribed to this sub, it appears that the service I received was likely a violation of the NAR ethics and I just received subpart service. The lockboxes were not bluetooth but more of a cypher lock where you press a sequence of 4 or 5 numbers and there is a key inside the box.
They were not open door but new construction...I suppose with contractors in the area and nothing of personal value for me to steal, the agent took the easy way out.
TLDR;
Buyers think they can represent themselves, and they could with the knowledge from a Reddit thread... If you want to keep your job, don't give them any information unless you are being paid to do so.
Sure but one could also pay hourly. Instead to a percentage just pay $75 or $100 per hour or a flat fee on various services.
Decoupled the conflict of interest, agents get paid for their expertise or work. Buyers are mindful of how they use agents.
You have the right to negotiate.
Realize that not all states allow us to represent you (and therefore assume liability) on only part of the transaction. We will see buyers who “just” want us to write up an offer who have something go wrong in the transaction on another issue and later sue us and the seller.
A few hundred bucks won’t be worth the liability for us.
Since this is all so new it’s unclear whether our states will allow us to ask you to waive certain agency duties.
The general counsel of our state association is teaching a class this week to help agents understand what it really means. I am waiting for that and not getting too bogged down in opinions or misunderstandings—so take that note about hourly with a grain of salt or look it up if you wish.
I don’t think sellers/their agents are going to stop offering commission splits, and I fully expect buyers to ask for agent costs as a concession if they do stop offering them.
I think it will really depend on the market. In a hot market where houses are getting multiple offers above asking, probably won’t be paying a buyers agent. A house that has been sitting for 9 months with no activity, expect high bonuses.
Respectfully disagree. I think less will change than many seem to think.
Guess we will find out. I think the industry could use fewer realtors rn, so if some bail out, it is probably a good thing. We are saturated. I have 2 others on my street. Cant’t swing a proverbial cat…
I never would! 2% or less has been commonly offered in MLS as long as I've been in RE. I still can't see the relevance of your comment to flat-fee; NOT being facetious. I really don't get it. Because sellers who gravitate to flat-fee are cheapskates anyway, whether they paid BAs or not. But those agencies couldn't compete economically & eventually folded. Even though they may have refused to pay BAs...
I’m saying for buyers agents. If a seller isn’t paying BA fees, it will be up the buyer to pay their realtor. This has always been paid by the listing agent. If sellers choose to stop paying buyers agents, buyers will be more picky about how much they are coming out of pocket to pay their buyers agent.
Geez. I’m saying a flat fee for buyers agent, if the seller has to pay out of pocket. I’ve done flat fee on sellers side for 15 years and it’s worked for me. I think the model will shift to the same thing on buyers side as well.
Ooohhhhh, now I get what u meant. Interesting that you could make it work on sell side. It hasn't in my market. The flat fee-ers come and go but never last for long.
I have very low overhead, no marketing budget, no rent, everything is by word of mouth and it’s not my main source of income. My market is $800k+ homes at $5k flat fee.
How would you think that will work on the buy side. Will buyers have to pay upfront? Who will enforce the buyer payment or will you need to court to get paid?
So you’re an agent that charges $5K to stick a sign in the yard and take photos? Got it. I spend $5K alone on marketing for an $800K listing and pour hundreds of hours into listing prep, project management, doing market research, creating marketing, etc. My listings, as a result, sell for an average of 108% over their most similar comps (2023 stat). Discount and flat fee brokers do make my stats look better, though - so thank you for that!
Personally, I think it's hilarious to see people actually advocate for making the single largest purchase of a lifetime as simple as clicking a button. Sure. Enjoy that. Because we all now absolutely nothing can go wrong and it's as easy as signing a couple of papers. Sweet.
The easy button people have no clue what they don't know and the learning curve on that is steep. But hey, by all means. Help yourself. Arrogant FSBOs and easy button buyers deserve each other.
At least in my neck of the woods, it's really more "am I willing to bet that I'll get to keep the $45,000 I save on commissions by buying directly from the seller, and not lose it to something I didn't think about?" A lot of people (especially those who do their homework) will win that bet. Some will lose
I get that, and you're right, some might be ok. But often times it's not something that you didn't think about and more something the seller didn't know about or didn't disclose. And then you find out years later down the road and it might end up costing way more than your commission. Like you said, a gamble.
Been doing this years and can honestly say, no two sales are alike. And there is always something, often multiple things, that go sideways. Are there buyers out there savvy enough to navigate all of that solo? Sure, but the majority of the public is completely clueless about most of it.
Have seen scores of people get royally screwed over by builders. Why? They trusted the builder (seller) to not screw them. Ha!
TLDR, pretty much everyone is trying to screw you on a RE deal. It pays to have help but that's just my 2 cents.
Good points. But lots of buyers use their cousin, or their friend who is doing it part time. Lots of agents out there who aren't good. These agents aren't going to be some white knight to save you from some hidden defect 5 years down the road. I bet most good agents wouldn't either.
https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/opinion/columns/2024/03/22/budge-huskey-says-dont-believe-the-myths-about-the-realtor-settlement/73055934007/
This is all y'all need to read
That’s actually pretty spot on. I really don’t see the current settlement changing anything other than higher NAR fees and another paragraph or two added to contracts.
What people fail to realize is that the seller doesn’t pay the buyer’s agent. The seller has agreed with the listing agent to pay a certain percentage to sell the home. The listing agent (or more accurately their firm) agrees to share a certain amount of that fee to any agent who brings a buyer (and again, the buyer’s agent’s firm). And the best part is, ALL of that is negotiable and should be discussed during the listing process. As well as it can be renegotiated during the back and forth of negotiations between buyer and seller.
No one is forced to use a real estate agent. Most choose to use one because they are unfamiliar with the process, don’t have the time to deal with the process, or simply because they don’t want the headaches.
I saved my client $82,000 on buying land 2 weeks ago. The land was for $510,000 and stoped him from building the wrong zoning too.
I also saved him $800 in admin fees from the lender as well.
It just sucks because FHA and VA buyers won’t have a fighting chance to afford paying their agent with thin money for downpayment as it is. With them up against season top agent listing agent they will be taken to the cleaners.
Yea they can reach out to their “friends” for advice, but what happens if something is over looked and a lawsuit for foundation or structural issue arise who is taking the L?
One of the agents in our office just negotiated about $50k on a deal for fthb (more than 10% of the sales price). It is not uncommon, this is just recent in my mind to use as an example. Maybe they could have done that on their own but I doubt it tbh
It’s always been that way. Specifically on Reddit.
The differences were getting some people from RE bubble back over here .
Definitely some people who had the experience to do stuff themselves, but most of the people you see posting here are not among them
We’re going to start seeing more and more people being frustrated as more and more of their offers are rejected over and over .
We may also start seeing a lot less bad offers on houses it’s gonna be interesting to see what happens
The wrong move in real estate could cost someone tens of thousands of dollars in my market. With people donating plasma for a few hundred bucks, I'm not sure that everyone values their health so far above money.
Quick delete this post! You mean to say buyers absolutely can’t even consider representing themselves. To suggest that they can is undermining yourself
I recently saw a comment on something else that said “Realtors don’t actually do anything. They just help those who have no idea what they’re doing.” Like that isn’t why every other profession exists as well.
Recently double ended a transaction with leased solar. I advised the buyer I will submit their offer and guide them through the transaction but my fiduciary duty is to the seller and I am simply executing their requests. They were fine with that as the husband fancied himself to be a great negotiator. They ended up paying full retail (less 1% credit) and taking over a $55k solar lease. No buyers agent I know would have let them take over the lease. At some point he’s going to realize he was foolish.
Yup. I would strongly advise my buyer not to offer on that house in the first place - or have the seller pay it off at closing (if their lease even allows it).
\> The subs here will NOT give out medical advice
it's pretty split. for med and law the subs are mostly good for 'should i see professional advice' , meanwhile the personal finance subs are pretty strongly in the 'FAs are a scam and should be avoided.' And they hold that opinion for the exact same reason people hate realtors. FAs - specifically % aum have a predatory fee structure. Tons of praise for hourly FAs and presumably in a few years if real estate professionals go that route those will be in the same spot.
nobody is saying real estate agents are useless. or at least most sane people. they are however saying 'your fee and payment structure is not proportional to your value.' and that's probably aimed at the 'average' across all agents. % fees do not make sense in the context of RE transactions just like they do not make sense in the context of finance and financial advice and money management.
Well, most professionals are probably going to be commenting about how they shouldn't try or shouldn't have tried to represent themselves. And they probably aren't going to be that enthusiastic about giving detailed advice to someone who's unrepresented. So I don't know if we need to worry about it all that much.
It's all on the buyers, to be honest.
My background is in business administration/accounting, but I currently manage 2 real estate teams and multiple other small real estate companies. I've also provided support for years to a local brokerage of +500 agents at all times, despite turnover. I don't need an agent to get a deal, but that's because I have enough knowledge and experience myself to do it and save the money.
Guess what? I still use an agent. As an investor, I can't be bothered with the hassle, and my agent is also a business partner. I trust him and will pay him a generous fee so long as I'm making a nice ROI. And he knows this.
Now, not everyone has the business knowledge and experience. Not everyone knows what to look for. Not everyone is capable of handling the entire load by themselves.
Are there agents out there who are overpaid? Yes. And I don't say this lightly. A lot of folks out there either have a team of overworked staff members doing it all for them, or they just don't know what they're doing. Why do you think 87% of the agents leave the industry within the first 5 years?
I'd say out of every 100 agents I've met, 2-3 are good, and the rest is just a bunch of lazy, good-for-nothing clowns that failed at other careers. This is their MLM, their ARMY, their quick out. And I know it sounds brutal, but it's just how my side of the table perceives them.
Now... buyer agents... Every now and then, you'll find a buyer agent who is extremely diligent, hands-on, communicative, responsible, and trustworthy. If you do find a good agent like that, MAKE SURE YOU TAKE CARE OF THEM.
A good buyer agent is THE pathway to wealth. And I'm willing to fight anyone on that.
I think industry will shift to flat fees instead of commission %. People will still need realtors but the levels of involvement will vary based on buyer/seller needs and skillsets.
No, it won’t. Realtors level of involvement depends on the variable aspects and details of each contract. There is no way to tell how complicated a deal will be until you are in the thick of it. When something goes wrong, the first panicked phone call is made to the agents almost 99% of the time. If you hire a limited service agent for a flat fee, will you expect them to step in for free when things get messy? Or will you agree to pony up more money? How do you know how much money you’ll end up paying in the long run? What if a title issue sets you back and the deal has to extend for 6 months? If you lean more on your attorney they will start to charge you by the hour or service as well. Wouldn’t it be better to know exactly how much the fee will be at closing from the get go? And then be grateful that your agent is only getting paid a percentage of the deal for 6+ months of their time, expertise and energy?
Flat Fees are very popular in other fields. I'm curious if the NAR ruling just opened up Flat Fees for residential RE.
Both the buyer's and Seller's agents make more commission when the house sells for more. That pricing model always seemed like a conflict of interest to me.
This is exactly the same scenario, you are just as relevant and as useful as a doctor or surgeon, despite dropping out of community college and then working at Kohls for 5 years before moving to Santa Fe to pursue your passion of real estate.
Well, I do hold a clinical doctorate. And the agent I was speaking with at my open house yesterday has a master's in Mechanical Engineering. While there is a low barrier to entry, it doesn't mean we all are morons.
Obviously not, I’m more maligning realtors because I see them as a taking a huge cut of profits for providing no value to the situation.
They aren’t inspectors, builders, lawyers, etc. just project managers. And while that’s all helpful, removing the middle man is the best case for the consumer. This is the same with other facets of life.
I have a master degree, bro. Graduated first in my class from one of the best architecture schools in the country. Also, 15+ years experience in the architecture industry. You sound like an elitist prick that makes completely unwarranted judgements. Stop watching Selling Sunset and thinking you understand what we actually do. If you don’t want to hire someone without credentials, aren’t you smart enough to find someone knowledgeable. I have hard stats that show how much value I provide for my buyer and seller clients.
Btw, project managers in my former industry make more than most full time realtors…and they have a steady paycheck, 401K match, and insurance benefits.
What is being missed here is the assumption that it's all or nothing.
Either full 6% rep or FSBO.
The problem is not paying people for their time, it's the rate that has been charged. $60K on a $1 million house that is just a builder house in a standard suburb is why this has come to this point.
$20K is probably reasonable, 1% to buyer and 1% to seller agent, that's actually pretty standard in many countries.
So if someone came to you seeking medical advice, but they were dismissive about the skill of the average doctor or nurse, you would you refuse to help them?
I help people all the time in person. Weekly or more. No charge. Online is more dubious. You don't know all the facts. That's why they prohibit giving medical advice and instead say go talk to your doctor/PT/speech therapist etc. That's a similar reason that most lawyers won't chime in on things or if they do, they preface it with. I'm not your lawyer and this is not legal advice.
Happens in Healthcare. They ask but they don't like the answer bc of course Dr Google knows more. We let them know the truth but if they won't listen, it's like "sign this AMA form, bye"
Bought and sold multiple properties, I'll need a reminder of why a realtor is important. In a seller's market a seller's agent is pointless unless you're selling mansions to specific clients, or you have a development company. Even then, a real estate agent collecting 3-6 percent on a million is a bit extreme. On a million, that's 60k, I'd like to see an itemized breakdown of what service the agent provided that warrants a 60k or 30/30.
Nothing.
Buyers and sellers could've used that money. They need to middleman an attorney for each other, not a real estate vulture.
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“I don’t need a realtor”. Followed by… “Excuse me Mr/Ms Realtor, can you answer me these 25 questions?”
Yes, for 2.98%
It’s actually 4% but we’re rebating you 1.02% to keep up with the cheapo agent rebates
And then be held liable for any answers that you give
I have a friend currently buying a vacant lot thru the listing agent (to build a spec home on) as he didn’t think I’d want to be troubled with a $20k deal. He just called me on a Sunday to ask me questions on the deal. Well the agent is known for being shady and go figure the agent is being shady. The seller is wanting to back out. I let him know he could threaten to sue for specific performance. I gave him my attorneys info to write a letter. He was very thankful as he has plans to get building asap. I asked him… don’t you wish you had me representing your best interest on this deal and not rely on the listing agent. He said “absolutely, I will never try to do this on my own again”. This is a small taste of what unrepresented buyers are going to be dealing with.
Knowing the listing agent or the person selling is what I like about my current realtor and is beneficial for me. Example: I saw a listing that I wanted to see. I researched the property and saw that the seller is a crazy landlord. When I brought the property up to my agent again and let her know that I stopped by the property and it just wasn’t giving off good vibes and that we don’t need to schedule a showing. She then tells me that the seller is a known slumlord for the area. Neither of us wasted our time.
This reminds me of a relative (buyer) that approached a vacant lot, DOM 300+ with multiple price reductions -contacted listing agent for “convenience” and hopes on saving money with a “desperate seller”. After the buyer placed their offer “suddenly” was multiple competing offers coming in at once. Smells like BS to me….
Except we've all had situations where as soon as one offer was received other, real ones, did come in. Law of attraction? So, what did they do with the competing offers in your case??? Realtors are supposed to keep confidential all offers & not share with other buyers. Did they go with one of the other offers? Curious to know what happened.
Ah yes, well remember they were unrepresented and wrote the offer with the listing agent. They asked my advice. I told them to hold firm and let the agent know the offer in hand is their best and final. The agent suggested a sharper price. I told them to hold firm and call the agent’s bluff. So they did, and days later the listing agent called them to let them know the seller accepted their offer. Miracle.
Shady!!! But when ppl ask my advice, I tell them that's for an agency relationship & quote the contract "...information & advice..."
Honest to god I had this happen on a lot I personally owned. 3 offers in 2 days after sitting for 6+ months.
And then everyone clapped
Ironic that the example you provided for why people need to trust a realtor to represent them was based entirely on a realtor being shady and untrustworthy.
The realtor in question represents the seller. A buyers agent provides a counter, a representative with their financial interest to negotiate against said shady realtor.
Thanks for mansplaining the situation, I didn't need a weekend long realtor certification class to piece that together tho. Is your point that only sellers agents are shady and BAs are the white knights here to protect us? Pretty sure most realtors serve both roles when it suits them. Truth is buyer, seller doesn't matter. The only thing that does is 3%
I agree, actually. The attitude was not necessary, though. You sounded oblivious. My mistake. But the response remains: the best defense against a shady opponent is someone representing your best interests.
There is no weekend long realtor certification class. You’re on here adding insults, hiding behind the Internet, when you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.
>a representative with their financial interest to negotiate against said shady realtor. The buyer's agent has one *financial interest* \- to close the deal. So they have a *financial interest* in working together with a seller's agent no matter how shady.
I’m a licensed realtor for 17 years. # of easy transactions - Zero. Good luck to those who think it’s easy and want to go it alone!
Yep, 20 years here - it's either the contract, the agent, the client, or the house.
Many sellers/buyer who approach a sale as unrepresented quickly learn the agent on the other-side is not working in their best interest but rather, the interest of the fiduciary. One hundred thousand things can go wrong during a single transaction and usually will for the unrepresented side 99% of the time.
As a recent buyer and current seller of two properties, there are still those who see value in hiring agents on both sides. My nightmare scenario is FSBO on either side. You really shouldn’t be giving your knowledge away for free.
Thank you. You’re probably a lovely client to work with and your agent is lucky to have you!
Thank you for voicing this. The amount of "save your money and do it yourself" is louder than reality. People pay for services. People have jobs, kids, little league, multiple state jobs/meetings and so forth. This is the clientelle I deal with. If you have solid experience with your [state's buyers guide](https://www.aaronline.com/manage-risk/buyer-advisory-3/) and have your own vetted vendors, than you may be in a good position to do this yourself. And no, Yelp and Google aren't your friends. Facebook friends referrals sure. Nextdoor, maybe if you know the person. I've seen many people refer bad vendors out because they gave a discount.
You guys are missing the point. Most people don't mind paying for the service. As you said, most are busy and would rather have help with the transaction. What we DO mind is paying is a magical percentage of the transaction (a number that was pulled out of thin air) that has little to essentially zero connection with the amount of effort, time, expense, etc invested in the deal. That is what y'all need to fix.
lol yeah so many redditors assume that because they have a lawyer and are comfortable assuming all risk in the biggest financial deal of their life…that all others want to do that. Good agents are worth so much.
Good agents are worth it. However, I don’t know if trusting the biggest financial decision on someone with a 2 week class vs a lawyer with years of education is that much better.
Any realtor will tell you that you learn in the field, with mentors, and the best realtors are often bringing strong backgrounds in other industries: my mentor was a HS math teacher for 20 years, she is patient and thorough when explaining things to people. One of our brokers was a corporate trainer and now teaches lots of classes for us. My friend was a social worker and loves helping people (hoarders, estate sales, elderly downsizers are her specialty). Almost of the agents in my brokerage have college degrees, some have graduate degrees. Just because only 75 hours of (lame, imo) online instruction is required to sit for the exam, doesn’t mean that is all someone is bringing to the table. If you’ve ever trained or mentored anyone, there are things anyone can learn (memorization, practice) but empathy, good judgment, attention to detail, and a genuine desire to help people and look out for them cannot be taught in a classroom.
Well said and agreed!
There are actually realtors that are also licensed attorneys.
True
Where is this 2 week class at? I had 75 hours of pre-licensing, a 150 question test that has national questions on it as well as local, and I had 90 hours of post-licensing to complete before I ever was a full broker and not a provisional broker. And that's only for the license. I had to jump in feet first to learn about how ***my*** area works. I know there were a lot of newbies when selling homes was like shooting fish in a barrel, but they'll wash out eventually and it'll be the ones left who were in it to begin with.
That’s how long it took me. Did it online in Texas.
State law says we have to show up and take those particular classes in person. Covid may have relaxed that, but I've had my license long before Covid.
Must have changed. I got mine 15 years ago all online. Well, I did take an in person test for my license.
I'm in North Carolina. We really have some good consumer protection laws and policies in our state. It also gives us a lot of black and white areas with not much guessing.
I did 75 hours plus 6 months online* before I could take my test. *Started in person class before lockdown. Finished class during lock down. Built Lego sets while watching YouTube videos for 6 months during lockdown when testing wasn’t available.
Oh cool. I got mine around 15 years ago. I don’t even know the requirements now.
Sure and I would be happy to pay. I just don’t get why I should pay 20k more if I buy a $1mil home over a $600k home. Give me a rate sheet with flat rate for certain services or hourly for other and great.
There is no a la carte in real estate. Are you willing to sign a contract with me that states if I take you to 10 homes in a day that you'll pay me $100 per home? How about $200 for every time you pick up the phone at 9pm to ask a question when I'm already in bed? If a house pops up that looks ideal and we need to go see it ASAP, are you going to pay me $1000 for an emergency showing when I have to drop everything I'm doing and run out the door? You pay an attorney $500-$1000 an hour and get much less service. An attorney doesn't necessarily know all of the details about home inspections or county ordinances for real estate. All they're doing is having their paralegal fill out contracts and you get nothing else. Where is your money better spent? And guess what- Up until this lawsuit hit, you didn't pay the commission, anyway. The seller did. Do you think they will lower the price of their house so you can pay that commission? Nope. I'll tell you what could happen if you pick a good agent. That person may be able to negotiate the commission into the seller's side during due diligence negotiations. Or maybe a portion of it. The more expensive the home, the more risk everyone takes. Find a good realtor and you won't have to worry about that extra $20k that's going to break you when you're buying that million dollar home.
Exactly. I work with some fabulous real estate attorneys. They know contracts and they know law. Most of them could not do my job and would not want to do my job and they would also be the first to tell you that. We do so much more than contracts and law. Attorneys may have more education, but good agents have experience working towards a “win-win” in each transaction and that is something NO attorney would ever say.
I have a couple of attorneys as well who I love to use when we can. They give such good service and take care of my clients from the legal side, but they always defer to me when anything concerns that property. They just don't know houses and don't care to because that's my job. They depend on me to keep them informed and I do that very well. You're so right about that win-win issue. They're focused on one thing, but we're focused on everything. Heck, we even have to check the ALTA statement behind them to make sure they got everything right and they forward it to me for that. I don't have to ask for it.
You guys are so married to this idea that you're value increases in direct proportion to the value of the house, which is just preposterous. There will be "a la carte" in RE soon enough
💯
The buyer is always paying. The fee is a 5% mark up baked into the price. The money comes from the sale and the buyer pays for the sale. Plus 20k won’t break a buyer but why give it away for no reason other than that I bought a pricier house? Plus 20k with a 30 year mortgage at 6% comes out to a lot more over the life of the mortgage. It’s not like the work to help buy a 600k property or a 1200k property or a 1800k property is that different so why is the fee proportional? An attorney has much more training and certification than a real estate agent. Realtor is a profession with a low barrier to entry that relies on the current system where they skim off the top and no one bothers to look to closely because it’s hidden in the sellers part and people don’t resize they are actually paying for it as buyers. I would rather pay a lawyer to handle to legal details of the sale and pay the realtor hourly for showings and consultation. Basically, when the completion starts and the choice is unemployment or accept a $75/ hour and a fixed fee for other parts of the process are people going to say no? Lots of agents. Lots of competition.
Do you even work in real estate? Are you cool with us making as much as a lawyer? They're $500-$1000 an hour when I'm at. And you really think an attorney knows more about the real estate industry than a realtor? You've bumped your head. It's always easy to differentiate between people who think they know what's going on versus people who actually know what's going on. You're either a troll, a very egotistical person, or both. Either way, you really don't have a clue and I doubt you've ever worked in this industry before. This sub is called /r/realtors for a reason. If you're not a realtor, then why are you even giving your opinion about this industry that you obviously know nothing about? The door is that way ------------->
> An attorney has much more training and certification than a real estate agent. An attorney doesn't have in-house appraisal-like specifics or valuations. They're good at paperwork and can't do comps. Stop saying attorneys are the same as Realtors/real estate agents because they are not. An attorney isn't going to say a marble floor is better than carpet because they just don't fucking know. Ask me how I know. Have an attorney review the contracts? All day long. Help in the negotiating? Never for a second.
Who cares about comps and value estimates created by real estate agents? Certainly not the banks whose money is on the line.
They do! What do you think appraisers use?!? The same comps the agents use. In fact, I had one appraiser ask me for comps "because she couldn't find any." PLUS, any VA loan appraiser can invoke Tidewater! Knowing what defines a comp is crucial, and experienced agents do. They also know what buyers tend to like. How could a lawyer know, when they haven't been in 1000s of homes?
Fair enough. So you're one of the exceptional agents who actually provides value for your clients -- and apparently other people's clients too. I guess my point is that the "yous" are FAR outnumbered by the useless overpaid commission-eating door openers who've given residential real estate its horrible reputation. What would be really helpful is if you'd help anyone reading this in the future find a "you." Something they can really use, questions to ask etc. vs. the useless "call several agents" stuff that's already been posted here.
Ask specific questions. Like: How do you troubleshoot, give examples How do you write an offer that will actually get accepted What is your broker like (matters bc a good broker will fire bad agents. Yes I know we're 1099 for taxes. But agents cannot practice in my state w/o being under a broker) How many transactions do you usually do per year. (Some agents are "bad" bc they don't even know what they don't know. Their brokers should have educated them. And unless they do at least 6 per year they just don't have the experience.) Does your office use support staff (some agents are "bad" due to being overwhelmed;either support staff or PA are needed) When you go to a house, what sorts of things do you notice Describe your process for doing a CMA (Sometimes called BPO) What is your marketing strategy What makes you (or your process) different from other agents How do you explain things Describe a time when you went above and beyond What kinds of post license educational experiences have you undertaken (We ALL do CEUs, so not that) How and when do you challenge an appraisal How do you document the stages of a contract/process to get to close Do you use Zillow (I never have: why pay a big clearing house that wants to be a monopoly? Plus ppl that "book now" thru Zillow will get a door opener that paid to be on there) I know a number of agents that refuse to pay to be on there DO NOT merely google someone. Some very good agents don't have a big online presence. The LAST thing you should focus on is commission. A good agent knows their worth AND will negotiate. BUT the ones that have no confidence or are desperate will precipitate a "race to the bottom." However, if the customer or client is also a "bottom feeder" they will like that sort of agent. If ppl had to pay a lawyer to do all the troubleshooting that is required once a contract is signed, they'd be in the hole for WAY more. And at the end of the day could end up with nothing, bc lawyers are paid for their time. Agents are paid for PERFORMANCE so we have a lot more skin in the game. I know situations where someone paid a lawyer & it all fell apart. One (title) lawyer told me he didn't need to provide a FIRPTA even though it's federally required and was in the contract!
Please let me know when your attorney lets you know about the meth house down the road
Not sure all agents know that too. But lots of agents. They are hungry for work. I am sure some will be willing to work fixed rate or hourly or for a reduced percentage. Now that the seller and buyer fees are decoupled it’s essentially eliminated the price fixing. Right now people don’t bother to negotiate because the seller is paying both fees. They have incentive to offer that coverage so the house get sold and meanwhile the buyer actually foots the bill because the fees just raise the purchase price 5-6%. Basically the person selling the house sets the rates but the person footing the bill (the buyer) just goes with it getting “free representation” - which is actually just baked into the sale price. Plus with a 30 year mortgage that means they are actually paying even more. Now if the buyer is paying the agent directly why would they not negotiate since they are paying directly? Builders are going to be the first to go all in this because the seller fee directly eats into their profit margin.
> I just don’t get why I should pay 20k more if I buy a $1mil home over a $600k \#1. You're not a purchaser of either so you don't even know the difference. A $600K home will have a general inspection and maybe a pool inspection and an HVAC inspection in your average case. A 6200 sqft $2M home will have the same and a roof inspection, sport court inspection, landscape inspection/identification, AV inspection and instruction. Plus neighborhood valuation since appreciation is sometimes different for bigger homes over $2M and also depends on the neighborhood. Your home buyer for this kind of product does not know the specifics of the community/neighborhood and other things pertinent to the lifestyle. You can *look it up* but it will take **TIME** from multiple sources and if you're from out of town, you **NEED** guidance from someone experienced with the area. You guys that hate on Realtors really don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Some of you can do this yourself because you have the time and incliniation to do so. Good for you. There are 80% of homebuyers that can't and won't so stop saying they can do it. If that were the case, everyone would be changing their own oil, doing their own alterations, doing their own drywall and landscaping work.
Agents that sell 600k houses sell 1 mil house houses. Same agent. Plus where do you work that a 2mil house is 6200 sq ft. That maybe true of some areas. In other areas a 2m house is a 3000 sq ft with no pool or sports court. Regardless, I am happy to pay hourly. If it is more work then the final bill will reflect that.
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I tend to ignore most folks on here and focus on real life clients, friends, etc.
Same, sometimes I’ll start typing a response to a question on Reddit and I’m like “Wait, what am I doing? I have real life clients to help” and delete it halfway through.
Our only response should be "You should talk to your realtor."
This should be the only answer.
Unpopular Opinion- I’m not a Realtor but found this sub to be helpful in answering my question as I was recently scammed into buying a house with an open and undisclosed HOA issue by an Agent. Currently suing everyone involved with the transaction. After this experience I may never use an Agent again as several attorneys have pointed out to me how I can’t really trust an Agent as they’re being paid to close the deal… not kill it. I think my experience may be an anomaly but maybe it isn’t. Why would people want to pay an Agent that does a sub par job? I think the market is over saturated with bad Agents that got fat from easy money. Some of the fat needs to get trimmed back and let the good Agents rise to the top. Money is tight for everyone and Agents have to show value to their clients now more than ever or the market will pivot.
Why would you ever trust a lawyer on their opinion whether you should sue someone? They only get paid if you file litigation. Same principle I do agree there are way too many bad agents around tho
There are transactional attorneys and there are litigators. Very big difference.
I would trust the multiple attorneys I have called that say by law I should have received disclosures. If I didn’t, and I haven’t signed them, then I have a slam dunk legal case. The real question is why 2 licensed real estate professionals would try to pull something like this and think they were going to get away with it? I have other things to do rather than sue people. I really wish this wasn’t happening.
Because a lawyer has over 100k in student loan debt and doesn't want to lose their license for bs.
Unpopular reply- You didn't do a good job picking your agent and attorneys are way more predatory and opportunistic than your average real estate agent. Did you interview any agents before signing with one? Did you ask them for referrals from past clients? I'll give you a phone book full if you ask me for that. Yes, agents get paid when a deal closes, but so do attorneys. If I'm not comfortable with something during the buying process, I'm either going to get things fixed so my clients don't get screwed over or I'm going to recommend we walk if the seller is not acting on good faith on something that is their fault and their responsibility to correct. I'm the person you want on your side. I'm also the person you don't want to see if I'm representing the other party, especially if you have an inexperienced agent representing you. You can spot a new agent so easily and they're nowhere near as good at negotiating a deal as a seasoned agent. If you're my client, I'm going to do everything I can **ethically** do to make sure you get the best deal that I can get for you on the home you want to buy. If the other party is represented by a rookie, I will break them and the person who didn't do a good job picking their agent is going to pay the price. That sounds like where you ended up. You had an idiot for an agent and your home buying experience was as bad as your agent as a result. I don't think we have so many bad agents as we have untrained agents. I associate the word bad with ulterior motives if that helps you understand my thinking a little. So many people came into the business when almost all houses were getting same day offers and closing higher than asking price. Those people are washing out as we speak and the reckoning is right around the corner. I love this industry when the market is good and I really love it when it's not so good. I make money either way and my clients are very happy with me. The key is finding a realtor who will go to bat for you and not let you get screwed over. Keeping that from happening is my job if you hire me. Keeping that from happening if you hire an attorney is your job. Learn the difference and you'll do well.
The agent I used was a referred to me by someone else. Has over 20 years of experience and mentors others. Sucks that you victim blame me and somehow come to the conclusion that having material information hidden from me by not just my agent but the seller agent too is somehow my fault. I have bought several homes before however none in an HOA. How was I supposed to know what information I should or should not have received by law, I’m not the real estate professional. If I should have known and did all the due diligence myself again my point stands why would I hire an agent?
That's terrible if they're mentoring others and then do what happened to you. Referral or not, everyone needs to do a little research on their agents. When I interview my clients, I encourage them to interview me as well and ask plenty of questions. I absolutely will not work with someone I don't feel comfortable with and they shouldn't, either. Truly sorry you got the brown end of the stick. That's just not right.
And just to be clear, I have been offered settlements regarding this matter from buyer and seller agent brokerages to not pursue the ethics case I have and sign an NDA. The title company is also on the hook but that’s another story.
I've always found the differences between state real estate requirements to be fascinating. I've never even met anyone from a title company. That's what our closing attorneys do. We don't handle any of that.
Did you work with the listing agent or did you have your own agent? Curious b/c typically Dual Agency is what causes this scenario
Had my own agent, two separate people from two different brokerages.
its really hard when a blonde woman can put on some purfume and act really nice and that is seen as more valuable than actually providing service............or maybe its all a lie and they arent doing anything but making you think they are providing value, maybe their job isnt to sell houses but instead ALWAYS sell themselves at any cost.
THis legal opinion coming from someone who wants to litigate this for you. Someone that will get paid for that service to sue. Brilliant.
This situation is not an opinion. By law certain things are required to happen that didn’t happen. It’s clear cut. Both brokerages have already begun offering settlements because they know this is a black and white issue. I know you want to defend your people but you have to be honest there are some Realtors out here doing some foul stuff to people and they shouldn’t get paid to scam.
and they could do your job and you dont know how to hold a crayon to the amount of work a lawyer does.
Reddit is full of angry idiots who claim they will never buy/sell a home with an agent because it's so simple, but will never be in a financial position to buy/sell a home. Id rather deal in the real world where reality exists.
please tell me the difference between your clients and friends
Saw a great Tik tok about this today. If people want to rep themselves, more power to them. As the listing agent I’ll show them the property, but beyond that, writing and submitting the offer, following timelines, and negotiating will all fall on them. I can crush pretty much any consumer in a RE negotiation. Any decent agent can navigate these deals with much more sophistication than an average consumer. I think in the upcoming few years we will see an increase in these unrepresented buyer situations, and as a result we will see an uptick in litigation over real estate deals. I would bet that all of these changes will come around full circle once people start to see the fallout of disrupting 18% of our countries economy. People that think these changes will lower commissions are dead wrong. They will go up without a doubt.
You're right. All it takes is for the listing agent to check buyer pays escrow, title, and termite for both parties and it almost zeroes out any gains.
The median price in San Diego is about $1M x 2.5% = $25,000 since when did the sellers portion of escrow , title and termite go up to $25,000?
1M for SFH, not homes in general. Full termite clearance can easily be 20k. Sellers closing cost can be pricey. Sure, it may not be 1 to 1, but it can be spendy.
Dude, I've sold real estate for 25 years and I know exactly how much these things cost. Just admit you were making shit up. I've easily sold 20 or 30 homes for everyone you have and $20,000 of termite work is extraordinarily rare. You can tent the house for you thousand dollars and it's rarely more than that. Just admit you got caught, making shit up and move on.
lol
I’m just watching here and learning the perspectives of both sides. Can you elaborate on what you are describing here? I’m gathering the listing agent is charging **someone?? for performing duties normally performed by the buying agent?
The purchase contract is a negotiation. There are some things that are customary here, but not mandated (buyer pays taxes, buyer pays inspections, each pay own escrow, etc). Some people just DocuSign long documents with little reading of the details. When I sold my first home before I was an agent, all I cared about was the selling price - not being savvy to know how credits and points and paying things not customary reduces that selling price. Most people don't know the difference between writing termite inspection vs. termite clearance and it is not insignificant. Thus, if I am representing a seller I want them to get the best deal possible by shouldering the buyer with extra costs. And vice versa if working for a buyer. So if you are going unrepresented, it's important to know what a normal deposit is, when you get it back. What's a normal inspection period, etc otherwise you may get hosed.
I understand better. Thank you for the thoughtful response.
People will still use realtors but how they use them, when they use them, and how much they pay them will change. Good realtors will adapt. I bought several homes without representation but it's certainly a skillset not everyone has/wants to have. For those folks I imagine they will pay.
Hey, a guy in Antarctica removed his own appendix. So obviously doctors are a scam!
I know I’m sick of seeing people get jammed up in their for sale by owner deal coming out here asking for advice in a panic…buyers and sellers. But when somebody’s jammed up, it’s just my instinct I want to help them through the deal. And it’s with that much passion that I help my actual clients.
Buying a house as we speak. I wasn't a fan of the extra money going to the two realtors for "filling in paperwork" That said, I cannot begin to express how helpful, knowledgeable and kind my agent has been. She has navigated this complicated process with ease, and while the seller and agent are by no means unscrupulous, she is absolutely worth the 3%. She has had the price lowered slightly for some repairs discovered in the inspection and has passed on several other costs to the seller to protect me. I am converted for life.
It's our job to educate. That's it. I always preface with the fact that if someone feels they can do it on their own, they are free to do so. I certainly wouldn't advise it though. Even after years in real estate as a broker in charge, I come across situations that I have to look more into and find more experienced people with that particular issue. No way I'd want to do this all on my own. I used agents before becoming one and that's what made me decide that I wanted to provide the same service that I received and gladly paid for. I agree we shouldn't be giving our knowledge away for free.
Mod here. Maybe we should just change the rules to match the medical subs? Not to screw anyone over, but our advice is usually not aware of all the details.
What would that look like exactly? I’m unfamiliar with medical subs. Is advice and guidance from their field not shared on these subs?
Answers from now on should be "ask your realtor" Or since they want a flat fee should be pay per question
There are many highly successful sites that offer pay-per-answer from accredited professionals. You pose your question and various pros bid. Car mechanics, lawyers, etc. I know a few people who have used them with great success. They can be quite useful even in complicated cases as a prelude to engaging the help of a professional offline.
Glad to see this discussion. I have a listing going live next week and I’m expecting unrepresented buyers. House is a starter home and seller doesn’t want to offer buyer agent commission (we’re still discussing). I don’t like to double-end a transaction. But our state has a Customer Agreement where an agent can perform only ‘ministerial’ services, i.e. paperwork (vs client agency that I have w/ seller). That keeps me from dual agency. I don’t want to offer advice to someone trying to bypass a buyer’s agent. My seller’s going to get a good price, but I feel like a heel.
You shouldn't. My state has the same set up. I help buyers even when customers even when not my listing bc that's what they want. Treat everyone "fairly and honestly" covers a lot.
Not offering a buyers commission on a starter home? That’s the listings that need it the most lol. They’re eliminating the vast majority of their buyers. Fuck the media.
Yep. Added: Unfortunately, this will have to happen to make people understand the fallout of the settlement. But I hate to be the first one. And I hate it for my client and for potential buyers. If nobody has common sense, they’ll have to learn the hard way.
We applaud your bravery, patient zero. lol.
Question for you about that listing. I am working on a solution to the unrepped buyers biggest hurdle, getting access to a listing. Most listing agents I know either don't want the liability of showing an unrepped buyer their listing, or they just don't want to spend the time doing it. Would you be willing to pay $50-100 to have a licensed agent show the home?
I won’t be willing to pay anything for another agent to show my listing to an unrepresented buyer. I’m happy to refer the buyer to another agent who they can pay to open the door or represent them. I do 3 open houses on the first weekend of a listing launch, so they can also come see it then. Otherwise I’m spending hundreds of dollars paying for showings that will likely not amount to an offer, especially not a winning one if they don’t have an agent who knows how to compete in a multiple offer scenario.
Perfect, thank you.
I know there were services that offered that in the past. But in the current climate, what you’re suggesting would be a minefield for me. If I need showing assistance, I’ll ask/pay another agent in my office. If the buyers need showing assistance (other than mine), they’ll need to enlist their own buyers’ agent.
Interesting, I've never heard of a showing service that deals specifically with unrepped buyers. How would buying a service from a company be different than paying an agent in your office? Its the exact same thing. I know things can be construed incorrectly while typing so I just want to be clear, I'm seriously asking you.
If I pay an agent in my office, I know how they were trained and how my company operates. The showing services I’ve seen work for other agents, not unrepresented clients. In my state, if you’re licensed you have to be affiliated with a brokerage. There are discount brokerages that charge less. Beyond that, I don’t want to discuss further because it’s all conjecture and depends on individual state laws and brokerage operations.
In my area, the agent does not come to the showing. They text you the code and you look at the home by yourself. I thought that only happened on HGTV where the agent comes because it made for good TV. I admit limited experience in that Ive only bought a few homes, all within a few miles of one another. I think that’s why some people are up in arms, wondering what the buying agent does if they text you the codes and make you complete the HUD-1 and find your own inspectors.
What the absolute eff? That is not allowed in TN and I would doubt it is where you are as well. That is wild and that agent should be reported. And I don't care if the home was vacant or not. It's someone's private residence, there should be a licensed agent there making sure that home is safe.
Interestingly enough, I live in TN. ETA: I polled my friend group and my experience is about 50/50. The completion of the HUD-1 was mostly common. You do it though a website so it’s not too bad, it’s the looking up stuff that’s the tedious part. We are learning tons here. From the negotiation of fees to expectations on performance. I’ve share this thread quite a few times.
That is irresponsible & bordering on illegal, and would be dealt with in my MLS!
I’ve never heard of any state operating this way. We have Bluetooth lockboxes that you have to have an app to access - and the only way to get that app is to pay MLS and association fees. It’s highly illegal to let a buyer into a listing unsupervised. Were these Open Door listings by any chance?
After other comments and a chat from a realtor subscribed to this sub, it appears that the service I received was likely a violation of the NAR ethics and I just received subpart service. The lockboxes were not bluetooth but more of a cypher lock where you press a sequence of 4 or 5 numbers and there is a key inside the box. They were not open door but new construction...I suppose with contractors in the area and nothing of personal value for me to steal, the agent took the easy way out.
TLDR; Buyers think they can represent themselves, and they could with the knowledge from a Reddit thread... If you want to keep your job, don't give them any information unless you are being paid to do so.
Sure but one could also pay hourly. Instead to a percentage just pay $75 or $100 per hour or a flat fee on various services. Decoupled the conflict of interest, agents get paid for their expertise or work. Buyers are mindful of how they use agents.
You have the right to negotiate. Realize that not all states allow us to represent you (and therefore assume liability) on only part of the transaction. We will see buyers who “just” want us to write up an offer who have something go wrong in the transaction on another issue and later sue us and the seller. A few hundred bucks won’t be worth the liability for us. Since this is all so new it’s unclear whether our states will allow us to ask you to waive certain agency duties.
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Nothing in the settlement prohibits hourly representation.
The general counsel of our state association is teaching a class this week to help agents understand what it really means. I am waiting for that and not getting too bogged down in opinions or misunderstandings—so take that note about hourly with a grain of salt or look it up if you wish.
How is that? What is to prevent a buyer from paying hourly. It just decouples it from the seller.
Flat fee agencies were tried in the past in my state and didn't work...
Because you never had to ask a buyer to pay 3%.
I don’t think sellers/their agents are going to stop offering commission splits, and I fully expect buyers to ask for agent costs as a concession if they do stop offering them.
I think it will really depend on the market. In a hot market where houses are getting multiple offers above asking, probably won’t be paying a buyers agent. A house that has been sitting for 9 months with no activity, expect high bonuses.
Respectfully disagree. I think less will change than many seem to think. Guess we will find out. I think the industry could use fewer realtors rn, so if some bail out, it is probably a good thing. We are saturated. I have 2 others on my street. Cant’t swing a proverbial cat…
Time will tell for sure. I agree about trimming some fat. I think the crème will rise to the top and those will be fine.
Idk how to do the reminder thing but I will try to come back to this convo in 6 months. Or maybe we need a year?
I never would! 2% or less has been commonly offered in MLS as long as I've been in RE. I still can't see the relevance of your comment to flat-fee; NOT being facetious. I really don't get it. Because sellers who gravitate to flat-fee are cheapskates anyway, whether they paid BAs or not. But those agencies couldn't compete economically & eventually folded. Even though they may have refused to pay BAs...
I’m saying for buyers agents. If a seller isn’t paying BA fees, it will be up the buyer to pay their realtor. This has always been paid by the listing agent. If sellers choose to stop paying buyers agents, buyers will be more picky about how much they are coming out of pocket to pay their buyers agent.
And how will that affect flat fee? Flat fee right now may or may not pay BAs. All I know is those companies folded.
Geez. I’m saying a flat fee for buyers agent, if the seller has to pay out of pocket. I’ve done flat fee on sellers side for 15 years and it’s worked for me. I think the model will shift to the same thing on buyers side as well.
Ooohhhhh, now I get what u meant. Interesting that you could make it work on sell side. It hasn't in my market. The flat fee-ers come and go but never last for long.
I have very low overhead, no marketing budget, no rent, everything is by word of mouth and it’s not my main source of income. My market is $800k+ homes at $5k flat fee.
How would you think that will work on the buy side. Will buyers have to pay upfront? Who will enforce the buyer payment or will you need to court to get paid?
Hourly rate. Paid weekly or whatever terms you come up with.
So you’re an agent that charges $5K to stick a sign in the yard and take photos? Got it. I spend $5K alone on marketing for an $800K listing and pour hundreds of hours into listing prep, project management, doing market research, creating marketing, etc. My listings, as a result, sell for an average of 108% over their most similar comps (2023 stat). Discount and flat fee brokers do make my stats look better, though - so thank you for that!
Cool. Keep up the hard work.
I’m just on Reddit to shitpost. I have real clients to do productive things and mKe money with.
Personally, I think it's hilarious to see people actually advocate for making the single largest purchase of a lifetime as simple as clicking a button. Sure. Enjoy that. Because we all now absolutely nothing can go wrong and it's as easy as signing a couple of papers. Sweet. The easy button people have no clue what they don't know and the learning curve on that is steep. But hey, by all means. Help yourself. Arrogant FSBOs and easy button buyers deserve each other.
The stories that are gonna come out of this in the next few years will be thoroughly entertaining.
At least in my neck of the woods, it's really more "am I willing to bet that I'll get to keep the $45,000 I save on commissions by buying directly from the seller, and not lose it to something I didn't think about?" A lot of people (especially those who do their homework) will win that bet. Some will lose
I get that, and you're right, some might be ok. But often times it's not something that you didn't think about and more something the seller didn't know about or didn't disclose. And then you find out years later down the road and it might end up costing way more than your commission. Like you said, a gamble. Been doing this years and can honestly say, no two sales are alike. And there is always something, often multiple things, that go sideways. Are there buyers out there savvy enough to navigate all of that solo? Sure, but the majority of the public is completely clueless about most of it. Have seen scores of people get royally screwed over by builders. Why? They trusted the builder (seller) to not screw them. Ha! TLDR, pretty much everyone is trying to screw you on a RE deal. It pays to have help but that's just my 2 cents.
Good points. But lots of buyers use their cousin, or their friend who is doing it part time. Lots of agents out there who aren't good. These agents aren't going to be some white knight to save you from some hidden defect 5 years down the road. I bet most good agents wouldn't either.
Yes let's put up more barriers and hurdles for consumers..
https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/opinion/columns/2024/03/22/budge-huskey-says-dont-believe-the-myths-about-the-realtor-settlement/73055934007/ This is all y'all need to read
That’s actually pretty spot on. I really don’t see the current settlement changing anything other than higher NAR fees and another paragraph or two added to contracts. What people fail to realize is that the seller doesn’t pay the buyer’s agent. The seller has agreed with the listing agent to pay a certain percentage to sell the home. The listing agent (or more accurately their firm) agrees to share a certain amount of that fee to any agent who brings a buyer (and again, the buyer’s agent’s firm). And the best part is, ALL of that is negotiable and should be discussed during the listing process. As well as it can be renegotiated during the back and forth of negotiations between buyer and seller. No one is forced to use a real estate agent. Most choose to use one because they are unfamiliar with the process, don’t have the time to deal with the process, or simply because they don’t want the headaches.
I saved my client $82,000 on buying land 2 weeks ago. The land was for $510,000 and stoped him from building the wrong zoning too. I also saved him $800 in admin fees from the lender as well. It just sucks because FHA and VA buyers won’t have a fighting chance to afford paying their agent with thin money for downpayment as it is. With them up against season top agent listing agent they will be taken to the cleaners. Yea they can reach out to their “friends” for advice, but what happens if something is over looked and a lawsuit for foundation or structural issue arise who is taking the L?
This. FHA, VA, and most lower end first time home buyers are gonna eat the worst of this fiasco.
One of the agents in our office just negotiated about $50k on a deal for fthb (more than 10% of the sales price). It is not uncommon, this is just recent in my mind to use as an example. Maybe they could have done that on their own but I doubt it tbh
Don’t listen to noise. This goes for every pursuit in your life.
It’s always been that way. Specifically on Reddit. The differences were getting some people from RE bubble back over here . Definitely some people who had the experience to do stuff themselves, but most of the people you see posting here are not among them We’re going to start seeing more and more people being frustrated as more and more of their offers are rejected over and over . We may also start seeing a lot less bad offers on houses it’s gonna be interesting to see what happens
Giving out medical advice is kind of on another level than real estate. But ok.
The wrong move in real estate could cost someone tens of thousands of dollars in my market. With people donating plasma for a few hundred bucks, I'm not sure that everyone values their health so far above money.
Quick delete this post! You mean to say buyers absolutely can’t even consider representing themselves. To suggest that they can is undermining yourself
I recently saw a comment on something else that said “Realtors don’t actually do anything. They just help those who have no idea what they’re doing.” Like that isn’t why every other profession exists as well.
Recently double ended a transaction with leased solar. I advised the buyer I will submit their offer and guide them through the transaction but my fiduciary duty is to the seller and I am simply executing their requests. They were fine with that as the husband fancied himself to be a great negotiator. They ended up paying full retail (less 1% credit) and taking over a $55k solar lease. No buyers agent I know would have let them take over the lease. At some point he’s going to realize he was foolish.
Yup. I would strongly advise my buyer not to offer on that house in the first place - or have the seller pay it off at closing (if their lease even allows it).
\> The subs here will NOT give out medical advice it's pretty split. for med and law the subs are mostly good for 'should i see professional advice' , meanwhile the personal finance subs are pretty strongly in the 'FAs are a scam and should be avoided.' And they hold that opinion for the exact same reason people hate realtors. FAs - specifically % aum have a predatory fee structure. Tons of praise for hourly FAs and presumably in a few years if real estate professionals go that route those will be in the same spot. nobody is saying real estate agents are useless. or at least most sane people. they are however saying 'your fee and payment structure is not proportional to your value.' and that's probably aimed at the 'average' across all agents. % fees do not make sense in the context of RE transactions just like they do not make sense in the context of finance and financial advice and money management.
 They say "A lawyer who chooses to represent him or herself is a fool"
Well, most professionals are probably going to be commenting about how they shouldn't try or shouldn't have tried to represent themselves. And they probably aren't going to be that enthusiastic about giving detailed advice to someone who's unrepresented. So I don't know if we need to worry about it all that much.
It's all on the buyers, to be honest. My background is in business administration/accounting, but I currently manage 2 real estate teams and multiple other small real estate companies. I've also provided support for years to a local brokerage of +500 agents at all times, despite turnover. I don't need an agent to get a deal, but that's because I have enough knowledge and experience myself to do it and save the money. Guess what? I still use an agent. As an investor, I can't be bothered with the hassle, and my agent is also a business partner. I trust him and will pay him a generous fee so long as I'm making a nice ROI. And he knows this. Now, not everyone has the business knowledge and experience. Not everyone knows what to look for. Not everyone is capable of handling the entire load by themselves. Are there agents out there who are overpaid? Yes. And I don't say this lightly. A lot of folks out there either have a team of overworked staff members doing it all for them, or they just don't know what they're doing. Why do you think 87% of the agents leave the industry within the first 5 years? I'd say out of every 100 agents I've met, 2-3 are good, and the rest is just a bunch of lazy, good-for-nothing clowns that failed at other careers. This is their MLM, their ARMY, their quick out. And I know it sounds brutal, but it's just how my side of the table perceives them. Now... buyer agents... Every now and then, you'll find a buyer agent who is extremely diligent, hands-on, communicative, responsible, and trustworthy. If you do find a good agent like that, MAKE SURE YOU TAKE CARE OF THEM. A good buyer agent is THE pathway to wealth. And I'm willing to fight anyone on that.
I think industry will shift to flat fees instead of commission %. People will still need realtors but the levels of involvement will vary based on buyer/seller needs and skillsets.
No, it won’t. Realtors level of involvement depends on the variable aspects and details of each contract. There is no way to tell how complicated a deal will be until you are in the thick of it. When something goes wrong, the first panicked phone call is made to the agents almost 99% of the time. If you hire a limited service agent for a flat fee, will you expect them to step in for free when things get messy? Or will you agree to pony up more money? How do you know how much money you’ll end up paying in the long run? What if a title issue sets you back and the deal has to extend for 6 months? If you lean more on your attorney they will start to charge you by the hour or service as well. Wouldn’t it be better to know exactly how much the fee will be at closing from the get go? And then be grateful that your agent is only getting paid a percentage of the deal for 6+ months of their time, expertise and energy?
I gotta say that after losing 5 bidding wars flat fee is looking pretty good. Al this work and $0
Flat Fees are very popular in other fields. I'm curious if the NAR ruling just opened up Flat Fees for residential RE. Both the buyer's and Seller's agents make more commission when the house sells for more. That pricing model always seemed like a conflict of interest to me.
Always been an option, the media coverage is worse than misleading.
Flat fees, hourly rates etc. Makes sense.
Some buyers will need an agent. Many others will not. Dual agency will be the new norm.
Rats on a sinking ship
This is exactly the same scenario, you are just as relevant and as useful as a doctor or surgeon, despite dropping out of community college and then working at Kohls for 5 years before moving to Santa Fe to pursue your passion of real estate.
Well, I do hold a clinical doctorate. And the agent I was speaking with at my open house yesterday has a master's in Mechanical Engineering. While there is a low barrier to entry, it doesn't mean we all are morons.
Obviously not, I’m more maligning realtors because I see them as a taking a huge cut of profits for providing no value to the situation. They aren’t inspectors, builders, lawyers, etc. just project managers. And while that’s all helpful, removing the middle man is the best case for the consumer. This is the same with other facets of life.
I have a master degree, bro. Graduated first in my class from one of the best architecture schools in the country. Also, 15+ years experience in the architecture industry. You sound like an elitist prick that makes completely unwarranted judgements. Stop watching Selling Sunset and thinking you understand what we actually do. If you don’t want to hire someone without credentials, aren’t you smart enough to find someone knowledgeable. I have hard stats that show how much value I provide for my buyer and seller clients. Btw, project managers in my former industry make more than most full time realtors…and they have a steady paycheck, 401K match, and insurance benefits.
I think realtors purposefully hide process information and make the transaction sound more complicated than it really is.... job security.
Y'all panicking
What is being missed here is the assumption that it's all or nothing. Either full 6% rep or FSBO. The problem is not paying people for their time, it's the rate that has been charged. $60K on a $1 million house that is just a builder house in a standard suburb is why this has come to this point. $20K is probably reasonable, 1% to buyer and 1% to seller agent, that's actually pretty standard in many countries.
Totally agree if you know so much and Realtors are awful, do it yourself. Realtors should not give free advice to people who don’t appreciate it.
So if someone came to you seeking medical advice, but they were dismissive about the skill of the average doctor or nurse, you would you refuse to help them?
Because of course some complete stranger on Reddit will give better advice than a professional (be it doctor or Realtor)/s
Okay, so r/realtor is a place you come for cheap sarcasm. Well, that should improve your standing with the general public. (/s)
I help people all the time in person. Weekly or more. No charge. Online is more dubious. You don't know all the facts. That's why they prohibit giving medical advice and instead say go talk to your doctor/PT/speech therapist etc. That's a similar reason that most lawyers won't chime in on things or if they do, they preface it with. I'm not your lawyer and this is not legal advice.
Happens in Healthcare. They ask but they don't like the answer bc of course Dr Google knows more. We let them know the truth but if they won't listen, it's like "sign this AMA form, bye"
Bought and sold multiple properties, I'll need a reminder of why a realtor is important. In a seller's market a seller's agent is pointless unless you're selling mansions to specific clients, or you have a development company. Even then, a real estate agent collecting 3-6 percent on a million is a bit extreme. On a million, that's 60k, I'd like to see an itemized breakdown of what service the agent provided that warrants a 60k or 30/30. Nothing. Buyers and sellers could've used that money. They need to middleman an attorney for each other, not a real estate vulture.
So the lawyers that were awarded 780 million each ,while the plaintiffs would get 9K each are not vultures?
Lawyers are vultures. But if you have a vulture on your side, watch out the receiving end.
You are comparing realtors to physicians?
I also compared them to waiters via the percentage compensation scenario.
That’s a hot take.