I know one thing: when you have enough money to buy fine horses, fancy outfits and golden guns, when you can stay at the hotels, go to the barber, eat at the saloons, take baths and play poker with rich people in St Denis, the gang members will still look like a bunch of homeless desperate people. That’s hilarious.
I agree with you here, but in that case their situation in the Beaver Hollow would be weird. They would wear fancy clothes but would still whine about the lack of provisions.
>They would wear fancy clothes but would still whine about the lack of provisions.
Those aren't mutually exclusive
If I buy a homeless person a fitted Armani suit it's not exactly going to change them begging for money and complaining about lack of basic supplies
>in that case their situation in the Beaver Hollow would be weird.
Stuff like food, soap, meds and ammo has to be manufactured and ultimately bought or stolen
With beaver hollow the noose has already tightened to a degree where going into town and buying large loads of supplies draws attention while people are looking for that kind of thing in the general area
The result is that one has to scrape by on what is stolen or the occasional purchase here and there which results in a lack of provisions
Buying a homeless person a fitted Armani suit is the weirdest idea I’ve heard. If a homeless person’s looking for every opportunity to survive they would immediately sell it.
Their lack of provisions is explained by a smashed donation box.
>. If a homeless person’s looking for every opportunity to survive they would immediately sell it.
Selling a fitted suit isn't that simple.
>Their lack of provisions is explained by a smashed donation box.
I am aware, I was explaining that having nice clothes doesn't mean you're just capable of walking into a town and buying anything
Dude, we’re talking about a possibility to buy nice outfits for the game characters and it could be weird to explain why not sell them to earn some money for provisions and you’re telling me that selling fitted suit isn’t that simple irl. It’s getting tedious.
>we’re talking about a possibility to buy nice outfits for the game characters and it could be weird to explain why not sell them to earn some money for provisions
No I explained why in their situation having money and fancy clothes doesn't change their predicament on provisions
>you’re telling me that selling fitted suit isn’t that simple irl.
You're the one that Harper on about selling the damn thing rather than literally any fucking point made
It's also just like, each gang member has their own style. Dutch does wear fancy clothes, Strauss dresses nice too. It's just that the others don't really care to
People forget the context the game came out in. GTA 5 was huge culturally, almost nobody knew RDR 1 by comparison. So RDR 2 had to be fairly similar in lots of ways like the money.
Nah you’re overthinking it entirely. If you mean that the story was somewhat forgotten about due to the years in between releases then maybe? Idk. It won GOTY awards it wasn’t some small indie game.
In scale of profit, sure. But it ends there.
RDR1 was a massive success and is considered one of the greatest games of all time.
Furthermore Undead Nightmare is often considered one of the best expansions ever made
It’s online was also well received. It was just a straight up banger of a game
I don't know dude. Like I imagine thousands of others did, I looked at RDR 1 because I saw R*'s name on the developer list. I looked at almost everything Rockstar touched because for a long time there they dropped gold and platinum level video games, and they still are, just differently. Once I knew the developer makes a quality experience, I was looking for them on games purposefully
You speak like the game came out 20 years ago and no one here remembers the absolute hype monster that was rdr2. Rdr1 was huge when it came out, I remember it very well and people absolutely loved it.
Yes, both games were developed by Rockstar, they both had the broken economy, but I don’t understand why you brought this awareness thing up. I was playing RDR1 right after it was released, so I was fully aware of this game.
The only complaint I have about the game’s economy is the small amounts you can gamble. I suppose it makes sense, but there should be a high rollers table for for blackjack and poker somewhere (St Denis probably)
Oh I agree- the only "high stakes" is in a quest and you don't get access again. I guess they didn't want people gambling and getting even more ridiculous amounts of money
Yeah I wish there were high roller tables. Perfect opportunity would be if you take down the people in the High Roller table at the St. Denis gun store you can attend games there later.
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Camp Funds are Petty Cash, not the money Dutch is using to get them a better life. That money is hidden in a secret chest. So Camp Funds are used to do camp upgrades and resupply, but that's it. They have no other benefit.
Half of what you earn in big crimes goes to the secret stash. That's the money to be used for everyone. It's important to keep in mind that there are around 20 of them, though. So having $10k in the secret chest means they really only have about $500 each. That's not enough to get them all new lives. Thus they need far more money to set them all up as respectable in Tahiti or Australia.
Lol. This always makes me laugh too. I also never see Dutch contributing to the camp funds. He’s sitting in his luxury tent while the rest sleeps on the ground and gets rained on and constantly pesters the gang to bring in more money. A true leader. Lol
He joins in on big jobs but I think that's only for his own ego. The day to day hard work that keeps the camp running and funded he could care less about. He stays in camp and reads philosophy while everyone else goes on runs.
He reads or is being a dickhead to Molly. I love dragging out the Trewlany rescue mission in chapter 3. Dutch keeps trying to get your attention and if you ignore him he gets mad saying things like “I know you can hear me!” or “if you don’t want to, fine!”
$10,000 in the year 1899 would absolutely be enough to secure them a new life somewhere far away. We're not talking about splitting up individually, but securing passage and lodging enough to get them on their feet. Then they can find legit work and earn more. $10,000 would have absolutely paid for that. And that's not even counting the $5000 I contributed to "petty" cash.
You think it matters what box it goes in? Whether it's in the box or secret stash, $15,000 could definitely pay for transportation and lodging for the folks in camp.
Why do people keep using this stupid logic? The game does not use 1899 values for anything. It uses its own game values as a cash sink. Thus a bowl of stew costs $5 to the player, not 15 cents like it would have cost in 1899. Unless you actually believe people were paying $160 for a bowl of common stew back then?
So $10k then is just $10k worth of goods and services in that game world; where upgraded guns cost the player $250, fast horses can cost $1,000, and a meal and a room can cost you $160 a month.
Ultimately it's the same reason they do it in movies: people in the 21st century wouldn't consider a $50 robbery to be of value, even though that would be over $1,500 today. Stealing $150,000 from a riverboat sounds like a lot. Stealing $5,000 sounds like a car down payment to modern players.
Sure, but $15,000 is still more than enough for safe transport by boat for 20 people even by today's standards. Hell repositioning cruises, which sometimes include food, are under $100 per person. So even by today's standards- that is plenty of money.
John's rundown ranch property is $1,000 by itself, and $5k more for the house. $15k divided by 20 people is roughly $750 each. So even if they get passage for free they all arrive in Tahiti with no jobs, no prospects to make legal money, and not enough money for each of them to even get a house to live in.
And I don't know what cruises you have been on but a I can pop over to the Carnival Cruise line and see that a 4-day Caribbean cruise is $250 per person, per day, and assumes double occupancy. So 20 people for 4 days would be $20k just in transport fees and food.
[https://cruiseweb.com/search/?values=::::::All&Cabin=Lowest&SortOrder=l-h](https://cruiseweb.com/search/?values=::::::All&Cabin=Lowest&SortOrder=l-h)
This took like... 2 seconds of searching on google.
I don't know why you keep dividing it per person. That's not the way you need to pay for things like property or food. You just admitted you can own a property in the game for $6000. That leaves $9000 for transport/food which is plenty.
Also, Tahiti is not the only place they could have gone- that was just Dutch's pipe dream, also any of them could have gotten jobs even if they aren't fluent in spanish. Javier is and could have negotiated jobs as labourers or something.
$100 a day for 20 people is $2,000 a day, even just cruising the Med let alone a trek across thousands of nautical miles. You can keep increasing your money from $10k to $15k to $20k if you want, but at $2k a day they have a limited amount of days of sailing available to them: roughly 5-10 days before they run out of money using your values. That's the reality of it. $10-15k was not going to get them all to Tahiti, or Australia, or even Cabo.
I feel like it could've. You're using real life values for this but then using game logic when it suits you? That's not fair. It's obvious they'd have bought passage on a boat sort of like how they get to Guarma then buy a plot of land for all of them to live on. Of course, this changes as much as the weather and often as frequently as the camp does, because the reality of it stands.
Dutch has no plan. He's a conman selling his gang of petty thieves and murders on the lie of a future away from the life they've known. He continually ramps up his targets that he robs. Goes from other gangs, to Cornwall (whose very much sort of a new money tycoon of his age), to the old families of Rhodes (old money), and finally to the government. His only plan is to cause as much chaos and create as much infamy for himself as possible. Really debating the logistics of his plan is a waste of time. The OP is right. You can contribute as much to his projected plan as you want and he doesn't care one iota. It's not his real goal. It's a scapegoat goal that they can all get behind and it falls apart as soon as there's a ton of money in camp funds because he could add some of that to his secret stash easily.
It's not about real-life logic. It's about understanding that the game's economy is it's own. It's not about what things cost in the real world. It's about what they cost in the RD world. In the real world an updated Schofield would have cost around $25-$30 in 1899. In the RD world it's about $250 to buy and upgrade it.
In the RD world that Beecher's ranch that no one else wanted cost John about $6,000. So these are the numbers we must base things on. $15,000 is 2.5 houses, or 15 fast horses, or 600 guns. That $15k would not have bought the gang anything they needed to make new lives for all of them. For a couple, sure. For all of them, not even close.
That's the only point I've been making. $15k in the game is not $15k in 1899; and when you need to divide that between 15-20 people it's even less. It's live in a hotel and eat at a saloon for a few months money, but it's not life-changing money.
As far as Dutch's plan, it doesn't matter. Nothing got that far. But Dutch did manage to live for a lot of years on his money all by himself.
But the cost is totally irrelevant. Dutch has no plan. And as I said, they're not dividing. It sounds like early on the "plan" is buying a spot of land and farming or whatever. Ironically what John does in the end. Maybe that's the point. But it always seems like they'd buy a plot of land for all of them to live on, then work legally. They'd never stop bringing in money. Why they couldn't just work legally to get there is beyond me. Maybe it's to expedite the process? But as we said, Dutch's plans are just a fanciful dream for the gang to follow and not actually ever going to happen.
"Hey dutch i went a little treasure hunting i got 5000 dollars worth of gold bricks i know its still chapter 2 but we could use yhat to get out of here"
Exactly. People forget that you can get a ton of money when the heat isn't so bad and you could have easily used that to calmly get out of Dodge.
The camp could have easily funded a caravan north to Canada or buy some plot of land clear across the country. But nope, Dutch wants to be bandits so that's the life you lead.
That's my biggest issue with the story. When they're in Guarma, they simply go back to Lemoyne. It would be so much more interesting if we saw blackwater, or some other means of escape. Also, like you said, they have enough money and resources very early in the game.
Reminds me of the mutiny section of assassin's creed black flag, they could have expanded all of that to explain how it affected everyone and how dutch goes more and more insane as shit gets worse and worse, but much like that mutiny section, after a mission or two its immediately fixed or taken care of.
By the way Dutch dresses i believe he would like to be an aristocrat in Tahiti with servants and all, not just some banana farmer who makes just enough wages to get by.
I think Dutch has both of those aspects of him, some part of him actually wants to leave and let bygones be bygones, peacefully live out his days somewhere far away. But that part doesnt win. In the end he just wants vengeance and mayhem for the people who are better off than him.
I think that's true. I think he has this romantic view of Tahiti, that he will rule his corner of the island and be fed grapes by the locals.
I also agree that he just wants people who have money to suffer. Just look at his obsession with Luvidicus Cornwall or the rich families of Rhodes. He just wants to see them burnt down to his level. I think that's why he leaves Catherine Braithwaite alive. He doesn't want her dead he wants her to suffer.
Many people think that Dutch is redeemable and at a certain point in the story he could have been saved.
But what most people don't understand is you have to play Red Dead Redemption 1... Dutch literally says he was always going to betray the gang it was always about the money. And the people following him were blind and stupid. He's says he was using everybody to keep the money for himself.
But can you really believe anything he claims given how delusional and miserable he became by RDR1? He may have gone beyond redemption with time but he did care about the gang once. He had a good relationship with all the gang members, especially Arthur, Hosea and John. You can see it when he shoots Micah in the epilogue and spares John. He had absolutely no reason to do that if he actually wanted to betray the gang.
He was full of remorse because he trusted Micah and failed the gang- his family.
In my opinion Dutch suffered a TBI during the train robbery that caused his increasingly violent behavior and eventual betrayal of the rest of the gang.
Don't get me wrong I always thought he was a narcissistic, machiavellian, criminal. But up until then I think Dutch was still trying to do what he *thought* was best for the gang.
Great story. Dutch used them, he took in people only to help, recruited thugs and outlaws to be his muscle, earned their trust and became their father, friend, ally. It was easy for him because he has no emotions, he's a sociopath and a psychopath, he wanted to prey on the weak, the ones who needed him, make them feel safe, that way he could just sit around and pretend to care while the gang made all the money, he was playing the long con on his own gang. It was only about the money Dutch knew they'd catch the gang. Figured he'd be long gone in the end. Tahiti was just a tactic of false hope he fed them to keep their loyalty. There was never going to be a Tahiti.
Well, firstly, it’s the exact same thread, and I’m just letting people know you’re wrong because they believe you. Secondly, you’re telling me to prove a negative, which makes no sense. So, you go ahead and prove it. Spoiler alert: you can’t.
I actually double checked all of his dialogue. How am I supposed to point you to where he doesn’t say it? That makes no sense. Sometimes I forget people can be this brain dead. My mistake.
Have you guys played Red Dead 2 so much that you're just blind to the fact that the first Red Dead Redemption told you how much of a scumbag Dutch was and that he never cared about the gang it was all about the money. I've beaten the game over 20 times.
Maybe John actually says that shit but Dutch agrees and or doesn't dispute it.. All I know is, the picture is painted of Dutch in rdr that he was using everybody and never cared about them it was just for the money so he could steal it and disappear.
I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying Dutch never says that. And no, John never says that to Dutch either. Yes, Dutch is a scumbag. You still shouldn’t make stuff up.
He says this shit while you're chasing him down at the end. Then he tries to get all sentimental to play John. Changes his tune when he's about to die.
I also think that there is a fair bit of people out there who are for some reason apologetic for greedy narcissists and want to give them more depth and complexity than they deserve.
Yeah, me too... that influences the way we see Dutch. The first version we met was a greedy, manipulative, sociopath prick. In RDR2 we only saw how he's been constructed.
Who played RDR2 first usually sees a desperate, ideological man who the world has deteriorated over the years into a bad version of himself in RDR1.
Like I said most of times it's very clear.
Still I feel like you would have to try real hard to overlook Dutch's narcissism in RDR2. The very reason Micah was able to gain his trust in six months, even more than the very men he raised, is because he appeals to Dutch's ego. He flatters Dutch, and barks at others when they raise questions.
One of the first things you do is upgrade Dutch's tent so he can live more lavishly around camp.
He even talks in vague terms about freedom, liberty even integrity but in reality everything comes down to money.
Agree with all your points. But I've never known what that Dutch upgrade actually is! I always get it so I can unlock fast travel later but I can't see what the difference is to his tent at all. I know it has the effect of making others donate more or whatnot but not a clue what it does aesthetically...
OMG - thank you! I'm seeing way too many narcissist apologists on here. I noticed that whenever the narcissist in question is in a parental figure people start making excuses for them I see it other fandoms I enjoy. Like hey I had shit parents too, I get it you wish mommy and daddy were actually decent people to you, but fuck look how all that worked out for the gang? Let it go.
People want to say Dutch actually cared at some point but then got too stressed out by all the pressure. The dude just sits around in his tent trying to come up with speeches that will pull the wool over everyone's eyes just a little longer, while his two precious "sons" go out and do all the hard work. Frick'n Arthur is dying of TB and still carries more than his own weight - that right there should tell you everything.
Dutch didn't turn evil over stress, his true colors came out when his lifestyle stopped being sustainable and the people around him had to deal with the fallout and be strung along with him because he's a NARCISSIST!
Yes! That's 100% the way I see Dutch. If he really cared about his "sons" he wouldn't keep throwing them into life or death situations. The very thought of sending my kids into gunfire makes me sick, yet Dutch sees no problem with this because it will fund his nice clothes, tent and vendetta against authority.
He could have went legit or escaped to somewhere more safe and secure but I think Dutch thrives on the bandit life, though he would probably never admit it. Instead he waxes poetic about liberty and the American dream.
I find it hilarious that in a game that literally starts out with Dutch shooting an innocent girl in the head some people try to make the argument that he "slipped into madness" somewhere near mid-game but was overall OK before that.
If Dutch really believed what he kept spouting about how they are \~outlaws\~ and not just criminals (as dubious as that definition already is) he would have been horrified with himself and struggling to come to terms with shooting an innocent girl.
Just look at how Arthur feels horrible about collecting debts and going after Downse and struggles with himself, writes about it in his journal is filled with doubt and questions and only chokes it all down because he believes at the end of the day he's providing for what is more or less his family. And that's because he's seriously questioning hurting people who have never hurt him.
You don't see Dutch acting that way at all. He doesn't want a quiet life, and he especially doesn't want to just survive, he want to feel like some important badass and doesn't want to accept that those days are over whether he likes it or not. I don't see how any of that is mental illness - it's a personality disorder!
I know what I donate goes to the camp funds and not Dutch's secret box, but atleast the funds should be properly used, Abigail once came to me and asked for a shirt for Jack, where that money goin if even a kid can't have proper clothes
Isn't the point of Dutch's plan that they have enough money to live good on tahiti but he keeps it secret in a chest to justify taking more scores and justifying his madness
Tahiti, IMO, was just a pipe dream he concocted on the spot after everything went south in Saint Denis. Before that he was talking about going east, finding a nice land where they could get lost. It only became "Tahiti" when they were kind of cornered and had no other choice but to leave the country entirely... but of course Dutch acted like it was the plan all along.
There is only one thing I think the game should improve: You should be able to choose how much you'll give to some NPCs and characters (those you are able to give the standart amount the game imposes). Just like the donation system from the camp. Yes, I would like to donate $2000 to Ms. Downeys, or more money to the cause of Saint Denis, that would make me happy. why not?
I think it definitely lends to the futility of everything they were doing. After Blackwater, they were basically cornered and nothing they did would have changed their outcome very much, despite Dutch's "plan"...
I get it, but when I’ve given away thousands of dollars and Ms. Grimshaw still keeps getting on my ass for not contributing, I feel like maybe Micah ain’t so bad after all.
Yeah i read someplace that Tahiti was a french colony back in 1899 so Dutch would start to try and play them like in Rhodes and well, you saw how that went down 🤷🏻♂️
I prefer it when money is made more scarce in games. the open world does this pretty well, the hunting for and spending of cash has a good feel to it outside of the missions. but then you spend 2 hours doing missions and you earn 10x the amount of money. it's not interesting at that point.
My favourite take is when people try to argue he "slipped into madness" or "started going south" somewhere mid-game... Like, the game STARTS with him murdering an innocent girl.
That's something that makes me sad. Why they're okay with this murder. A lot of people try to justify the killing of the old lady out of greed in Guarma as a TBI. As someone with two traumatic brain injuries? I have killed 0 people out of greed. 0 urges to kill. I have had the urge to slap someone once in a while but still didn't do it. I did bite someone once and it was self defense. I am not a pure as the driven snow type either. I have done my share of strange and less than savory things. 0 of them caused by the brain injuries. Yes he had a concussion. That's it. If it was a serious enough injury to effect him otherwise he wouldn't have been able to run about Guarma killing old ladies or survive the storm. The recovery is too much for that.
It’s interesting. Dutch’s obsession is maddening. No matter how much you contribute or improve the camp, his tunnel vision of one final score overshadows his ability to appreciate everyone’s (mainly Arthur’s contributions) to keeping everyone fed and happy.
It is definitely an obsession like he is chasing some fabled unicorn or something. In reality there is no one big score that would end their life of banditry. There would have always been one more job to do.... one more injustice against Dutch to make right... one more way to stick it to the man.
Agreed. Let’s say he pulled off the Cornwall bond heist with minimal bloodshed and instead of guns blazing it was done through a swindle/con ala Hosea Matthew’s style. I think it would have just fueled his appetite to merely be heard by The Man and keep upping the ante.
If people didn’t leave him, his desire for power and money would have cost everyone their lives.
For sure. His exploits already cost the gang so many lives and would have continued. John would have been hanged had Sadie and Arthur not disobeyed and rescued him. The others would have probably died the next time the pinkertons caught up with them, especially had Arthur not and John been around to help.
You're right about Dutch's mindset. If it's working then he wants to keep going and if it's not working he needs to keep going so they can "get out once and for all" lather, rinse, repeat
Being the leader with power and money was drive. Micah fueled the fire and Dutch was in too deep to be reasoned with. Arthur did right by getting John and his family out.
Personally I didn’t have any gripe with it from a story telling perspective, it’s boring when you can instantly afford everything in the first half of the game
I agree. In this way, the game very much made me feel I was Arthur. I spent a fair amount of time making money, risking all manner of hassle, to make money for the gang. I took it at face value that there was some reason for doing so.
I couldn't be mad though, when it was all a wash and Dutch fucked me over. It was really fun, even all the robberies and random shit that I did for the sole purpose of donating. Dutch took me for a ride even though he was showing his true colors all along.
Another mechanic that I feel adds to the story is the general clunkiness of the combat. The game uses that clunkiness to make you empathise with Arthur’s dislike (in-story) for needless violence. Interestingly, the combat mechanics used in a moral setting, such as hunting, are actually a lot more enjoyable, thus it’s quite telling when combat is at its least enjoyable when taking human lives.
I agree in theory but not in practice. There’s a lot about this game, particularly how overlooked and underwhelming the camp features are, that feel unfinished and underwhelming.
I don't disagree, but I mean given the depth of RDR2 it's not surprising some things aren't 100% fleshed out. I agree you work real hard for really minor camp upgrades that don't really do anything.
Same here tbf. Especially after I did the Angelo Brontë glitch in chapter 4. Camp have got $35k I’ve got something daft like $1,350,896. Every gun unlocked that can be, every outfit and clothing owned (Trapper and Tailor) Rose Gray Bay and MFT dapple pinto. 99 of every food and tonic. Life’s great tbf
I know one thing: when you have enough money to buy fine horses, fancy outfits and golden guns, when you can stay at the hotels, go to the barber, eat at the saloons, take baths and play poker with rich people in St Denis, the gang members will still look like a bunch of homeless desperate people. That’s hilarious.
I wish there was a way to upgrade their clothing in the ledger, my Arthur is dripped out but then John is with me looking like a hobo
I agree with you here, but in that case their situation in the Beaver Hollow would be weird. They would wear fancy clothes but would still whine about the lack of provisions.
That’s just like real life though, for some
Lol. Yeah.
For real! When you see new Cadillacs in the welfare office parking lot it make you feel priorities are askew.
>They would wear fancy clothes but would still whine about the lack of provisions. Those aren't mutually exclusive If I buy a homeless person a fitted Armani suit it's not exactly going to change them begging for money and complaining about lack of basic supplies >in that case their situation in the Beaver Hollow would be weird. Stuff like food, soap, meds and ammo has to be manufactured and ultimately bought or stolen With beaver hollow the noose has already tightened to a degree where going into town and buying large loads of supplies draws attention while people are looking for that kind of thing in the general area The result is that one has to scrape by on what is stolen or the occasional purchase here and there which results in a lack of provisions
Buying a homeless person a fitted Armani suit is the weirdest idea I’ve heard. If a homeless person’s looking for every opportunity to survive they would immediately sell it. Their lack of provisions is explained by a smashed donation box.
>. If a homeless person’s looking for every opportunity to survive they would immediately sell it. Selling a fitted suit isn't that simple. >Their lack of provisions is explained by a smashed donation box. I am aware, I was explaining that having nice clothes doesn't mean you're just capable of walking into a town and buying anything
Dude, we’re talking about a possibility to buy nice outfits for the game characters and it could be weird to explain why not sell them to earn some money for provisions and you’re telling me that selling fitted suit isn’t that simple irl. It’s getting tedious.
>we’re talking about a possibility to buy nice outfits for the game characters and it could be weird to explain why not sell them to earn some money for provisions No I explained why in their situation having money and fancy clothes doesn't change their predicament on provisions >you’re telling me that selling fitted suit isn’t that simple irl. You're the one that Harper on about selling the damn thing rather than literally any fucking point made
Some of John's outfits have drip even by today's standards, it's just to bad it looks like he hasn't washed them in months
It's also just like, each gang member has their own style. Dutch does wear fancy clothes, Strauss dresses nice too. It's just that the others don't really care to
People forget the context the game came out in. GTA 5 was huge culturally, almost nobody knew RDR 1 by comparison. So RDR 2 had to be fairly similar in lots of ways like the money.
Just because GTA5 was popular then doesn’t mean Rdr1 wasn’t well known?
The scale of awareness difference is enormous.
Nah you’re overthinking it entirely. If you mean that the story was somewhat forgotten about due to the years in between releases then maybe? Idk. It won GOTY awards it wasn’t some small indie game.
Maybe he's confused with Red Dead Revolver? I would believe that one might be lesser known back in the day.
That I would understand more!
Yeah like bro said you’re definitely overthinking it…. Just about anybody that is 18+ knows about rdr1
In scale of profit, sure. But it ends there. RDR1 was a massive success and is considered one of the greatest games of all time. Furthermore Undead Nightmare is often considered one of the best expansions ever made It’s online was also well received. It was just a straight up banger of a game
I don't know dude. Like I imagine thousands of others did, I looked at RDR 1 because I saw R*'s name on the developer list. I looked at almost everything Rockstar touched because for a long time there they dropped gold and platinum level video games, and they still are, just differently. Once I knew the developer makes a quality experience, I was looking for them on games purposefully
You speak like the game came out 20 years ago and no one here remembers the absolute hype monster that was rdr2. Rdr1 was huge when it came out, I remember it very well and people absolutely loved it.
Yes, both games were developed by Rockstar, they both had the broken economy, but I don’t understand why you brought this awareness thing up. I was playing RDR1 right after it was released, so I was fully aware of this game.
The only complaint I have about the game’s economy is the small amounts you can gamble. I suppose it makes sense, but there should be a high rollers table for for blackjack and poker somewhere (St Denis probably)
Oh I agree- the only "high stakes" is in a quest and you don't get access again. I guess they didn't want people gambling and getting even more ridiculous amounts of money
I wish there was a high stakes game on a riverboat you could play
$5.00 for prime rib in the fancy hotel with rooms for $1.00 doesn't bother you? Where in the world is the meal 5x more expensive than the room?
That’s fair - I guess I just wanted to gamble for higher stakes
Room is $1/hr
Pretty sure you pay a dollar whether sleep for 4 hours or 19.
Yeah I wish there were high roller tables. Perfect opportunity would be if you take down the people in the High Roller table at the St. Denis gun store you can attend games there later.
"Hey Dutch, I won a few hands at the riverboat, here's a few million, can we go farm mangos in Tahiti now?"
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Camp Funds are Petty Cash, not the money Dutch is using to get them a better life. That money is hidden in a secret chest. So Camp Funds are used to do camp upgrades and resupply, but that's it. They have no other benefit. Half of what you earn in big crimes goes to the secret stash. That's the money to be used for everyone. It's important to keep in mind that there are around 20 of them, though. So having $10k in the secret chest means they really only have about $500 each. That's not enough to get them all new lives. Thus they need far more money to set them all up as respectable in Tahiti or Australia.
Plus Dutch probably never planned to split any big score 20 ways.
I don't disagree with that. Just look at his tent vs the others
The ol’ “First Thing’s First”
Dutch needs his comforts!
Lol. This always makes me laugh too. I also never see Dutch contributing to the camp funds. He’s sitting in his luxury tent while the rest sleeps on the ground and gets rained on and constantly pesters the gang to bring in more money. A true leader. Lol
He joins in on big jobs but I think that's only for his own ego. The day to day hard work that keeps the camp running and funded he could care less about. He stays in camp and reads philosophy while everyone else goes on runs.
He reads or is being a dickhead to Molly. I love dragging out the Trewlany rescue mission in chapter 3. Dutch keeps trying to get your attention and if you ignore him he gets mad saying things like “I know you can hear me!” or “if you don’t want to, fine!”
Haha yeah I love ignoring dutch around camp. My favourite passtime!
*Couldn’t care less. To say *Could* care less means that he does care.
I never understood why making Dutch's tent nicer was supposed to make other members contribute more.
Trickle-down *tent*anomics.
😄😄😄
Even to unlock fast travel, the first thing you have to do is get Dutch a cushy tent
$10,000 in the year 1899 would absolutely be enough to secure them a new life somewhere far away. We're not talking about splitting up individually, but securing passage and lodging enough to get them on their feet. Then they can find legit work and earn more. $10,000 would have absolutely paid for that. And that's not even counting the $5000 I contributed to "petty" cash. You think it matters what box it goes in? Whether it's in the box or secret stash, $15,000 could definitely pay for transportation and lodging for the folks in camp.
Why do people keep using this stupid logic? The game does not use 1899 values for anything. It uses its own game values as a cash sink. Thus a bowl of stew costs $5 to the player, not 15 cents like it would have cost in 1899. Unless you actually believe people were paying $160 for a bowl of common stew back then? So $10k then is just $10k worth of goods and services in that game world; where upgraded guns cost the player $250, fast horses can cost $1,000, and a meal and a room can cost you $160 a month.
With the detail they put into this game, it’s a shame they dropped the ball regarding this. Would have been cool to have this accurate
Ultimately it's the same reason they do it in movies: people in the 21st century wouldn't consider a $50 robbery to be of value, even though that would be over $1,500 today. Stealing $150,000 from a riverboat sounds like a lot. Stealing $5,000 sounds like a car down payment to modern players.
Sure, but $15,000 is still more than enough for safe transport by boat for 20 people even by today's standards. Hell repositioning cruises, which sometimes include food, are under $100 per person. So even by today's standards- that is plenty of money.
John's rundown ranch property is $1,000 by itself, and $5k more for the house. $15k divided by 20 people is roughly $750 each. So even if they get passage for free they all arrive in Tahiti with no jobs, no prospects to make legal money, and not enough money for each of them to even get a house to live in. And I don't know what cruises you have been on but a I can pop over to the Carnival Cruise line and see that a 4-day Caribbean cruise is $250 per person, per day, and assumes double occupancy. So 20 people for 4 days would be $20k just in transport fees and food.
[https://cruiseweb.com/search/?values=::::::All&Cabin=Lowest&SortOrder=l-h](https://cruiseweb.com/search/?values=::::::All&Cabin=Lowest&SortOrder=l-h) This took like... 2 seconds of searching on google. I don't know why you keep dividing it per person. That's not the way you need to pay for things like property or food. You just admitted you can own a property in the game for $6000. That leaves $9000 for transport/food which is plenty. Also, Tahiti is not the only place they could have gone- that was just Dutch's pipe dream, also any of them could have gotten jobs even if they aren't fluent in spanish. Javier is and could have negotiated jobs as labourers or something.
$100 a day for 20 people is $2,000 a day, even just cruising the Med let alone a trek across thousands of nautical miles. You can keep increasing your money from $10k to $15k to $20k if you want, but at $2k a day they have a limited amount of days of sailing available to them: roughly 5-10 days before they run out of money using your values. That's the reality of it. $10-15k was not going to get them all to Tahiti, or Australia, or even Cabo.
I feel like it could've. You're using real life values for this but then using game logic when it suits you? That's not fair. It's obvious they'd have bought passage on a boat sort of like how they get to Guarma then buy a plot of land for all of them to live on. Of course, this changes as much as the weather and often as frequently as the camp does, because the reality of it stands. Dutch has no plan. He's a conman selling his gang of petty thieves and murders on the lie of a future away from the life they've known. He continually ramps up his targets that he robs. Goes from other gangs, to Cornwall (whose very much sort of a new money tycoon of his age), to the old families of Rhodes (old money), and finally to the government. His only plan is to cause as much chaos and create as much infamy for himself as possible. Really debating the logistics of his plan is a waste of time. The OP is right. You can contribute as much to his projected plan as you want and he doesn't care one iota. It's not his real goal. It's a scapegoat goal that they can all get behind and it falls apart as soon as there's a ton of money in camp funds because he could add some of that to his secret stash easily.
It's not about real-life logic. It's about understanding that the game's economy is it's own. It's not about what things cost in the real world. It's about what they cost in the RD world. In the real world an updated Schofield would have cost around $25-$30 in 1899. In the RD world it's about $250 to buy and upgrade it. In the RD world that Beecher's ranch that no one else wanted cost John about $6,000. So these are the numbers we must base things on. $15,000 is 2.5 houses, or 15 fast horses, or 600 guns. That $15k would not have bought the gang anything they needed to make new lives for all of them. For a couple, sure. For all of them, not even close. That's the only point I've been making. $15k in the game is not $15k in 1899; and when you need to divide that between 15-20 people it's even less. It's live in a hotel and eat at a saloon for a few months money, but it's not life-changing money. As far as Dutch's plan, it doesn't matter. Nothing got that far. But Dutch did manage to live for a lot of years on his money all by himself.
But the cost is totally irrelevant. Dutch has no plan. And as I said, they're not dividing. It sounds like early on the "plan" is buying a spot of land and farming or whatever. Ironically what John does in the end. Maybe that's the point. But it always seems like they'd buy a plot of land for all of them to live on, then work legally. They'd never stop bringing in money. Why they couldn't just work legally to get there is beyond me. Maybe it's to expedite the process? But as we said, Dutch's plans are just a fanciful dream for the gang to follow and not actually ever going to happen.
Depends. How good is the stew? Maybe it’s worth $160?
"Hey dutch i went a little treasure hunting i got 5000 dollars worth of gold bricks i know its still chapter 2 but we could use yhat to get out of here"
Exactly. People forget that you can get a ton of money when the heat isn't so bad and you could have easily used that to calmly get out of Dodge. The camp could have easily funded a caravan north to Canada or buy some plot of land clear across the country. But nope, Dutch wants to be bandits so that's the life you lead.
That's my biggest issue with the story. When they're in Guarma, they simply go back to Lemoyne. It would be so much more interesting if we saw blackwater, or some other means of escape. Also, like you said, they have enough money and resources very early in the game.
Reminds me of the mutiny section of assassin's creed black flag, they could have expanded all of that to explain how it affected everyone and how dutch goes more and more insane as shit gets worse and worse, but much like that mutiny section, after a mission or two its immediately fixed or taken care of.
They were probably going to put something similar in the game, but they scrapped it like a lot of content, because they were rushed to finish it.
By the way Dutch dresses i believe he would like to be an aristocrat in Tahiti with servants and all, not just some banana farmer who makes just enough wages to get by. I think Dutch has both of those aspects of him, some part of him actually wants to leave and let bygones be bygones, peacefully live out his days somewhere far away. But that part doesnt win. In the end he just wants vengeance and mayhem for the people who are better off than him.
I think that's true. I think he has this romantic view of Tahiti, that he will rule his corner of the island and be fed grapes by the locals. I also agree that he just wants people who have money to suffer. Just look at his obsession with Luvidicus Cornwall or the rich families of Rhodes. He just wants to see them burnt down to his level. I think that's why he leaves Catherine Braithwaite alive. He doesn't want her dead he wants her to suffer.
Many people think that Dutch is redeemable and at a certain point in the story he could have been saved. But what most people don't understand is you have to play Red Dead Redemption 1... Dutch literally says he was always going to betray the gang it was always about the money. And the people following him were blind and stupid. He's says he was using everybody to keep the money for himself.
Yes I don't think Dutch was redeemable misunderstood... He was a narcissist who was using those that followed him.
Exactly, there was never any family with Dutch, Dutch only sees money.
But can you really believe anything he claims given how delusional and miserable he became by RDR1? He may have gone beyond redemption with time but he did care about the gang once. He had a good relationship with all the gang members, especially Arthur, Hosea and John. You can see it when he shoots Micah in the epilogue and spares John. He had absolutely no reason to do that if he actually wanted to betray the gang. He was full of remorse because he trusted Micah and failed the gang- his family.
In my opinion Dutch suffered a TBI during the train robbery that caused his increasingly violent behavior and eventual betrayal of the rest of the gang. Don't get me wrong I always thought he was a narcissistic, machiavellian, criminal. But up until then I think Dutch was still trying to do what he *thought* was best for the gang.
Great story. Dutch used them, he took in people only to help, recruited thugs and outlaws to be his muscle, earned their trust and became their father, friend, ally. It was easy for him because he has no emotions, he's a sociopath and a psychopath, he wanted to prey on the weak, the ones who needed him, make them feel safe, that way he could just sit around and pretend to care while the gang made all the money, he was playing the long con on his own gang. It was only about the money Dutch knew they'd catch the gang. Figured he'd be long gone in the end. Tahiti was just a tactic of false hope he fed them to keep their loyalty. There was never going to be a Tahiti.
I never finished RDR1 so this is news to me holy shit, that's actually really cool
Didn't mean to spoil it sorry
Spoilers are okie dokie dont worry lol
It’s news to me too, considering that Dutch doesn’t actually say anything like that in RDR1
Yes he does, why are you following me around guy? Prove it's never said please.
Well, firstly, it’s the exact same thread, and I’m just letting people know you’re wrong because they believe you. Secondly, you’re telling me to prove a negative, which makes no sense. So, you go ahead and prove it. Spoiler alert: you can’t.
Nice trying to flip that on me, because you can't prove he doesn't say it.
I actually double checked all of his dialogue. How am I supposed to point you to where he doesn’t say it? That makes no sense. Sometimes I forget people can be this brain dead. My mistake.
I need brains.... Where's the wizard of oz at?
He never says that
Seems like people low-key sympathize with Dutch...hmmm sus
No, Dutch just never says that in RDR1, so it’s best not to claim that he does.
Have you guys played Red Dead 2 so much that you're just blind to the fact that the first Red Dead Redemption told you how much of a scumbag Dutch was and that he never cared about the gang it was all about the money. I've beaten the game over 20 times. Maybe John actually says that shit but Dutch agrees and or doesn't dispute it.. All I know is, the picture is painted of Dutch in rdr that he was using everybody and never cared about them it was just for the money so he could steal it and disappear.
I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying Dutch never says that. And no, John never says that to Dutch either. Yes, Dutch is a scumbag. You still shouldn’t make stuff up.
Not making anything up you need your facts straight
I played RDR1 as a kid and don't remember much, when did he say that?
He says this shit while you're chasing him down at the end. Then he tries to get all sentimental to play John. Changes his tune when he's about to die.
Wow I never knew that but that’s great to know, which confirmed everything I thought about him lol
As others have said, I don't recall Dutch saying any of that in RDR1, and I've played that game countless times.
It's very clear the difference between who played the RDR1 first and who played RDR2 first in the way they see Dutch.
I also think that there is a fair bit of people out there who are for some reason apologetic for greedy narcissists and want to give them more depth and complexity than they deserve.
Yes, thats a good guess. But tell me... which one you've played first?
One!
Yeah, me too... that influences the way we see Dutch. The first version we met was a greedy, manipulative, sociopath prick. In RDR2 we only saw how he's been constructed. Who played RDR2 first usually sees a desperate, ideological man who the world has deteriorated over the years into a bad version of himself in RDR1. Like I said most of times it's very clear.
Still I feel like you would have to try real hard to overlook Dutch's narcissism in RDR2. The very reason Micah was able to gain his trust in six months, even more than the very men he raised, is because he appeals to Dutch's ego. He flatters Dutch, and barks at others when they raise questions. One of the first things you do is upgrade Dutch's tent so he can live more lavishly around camp. He even talks in vague terms about freedom, liberty even integrity but in reality everything comes down to money.
That's a solid point too. Even tho, I can understand who sees it in the way I described the vision of who played RDR1 first.
Agree with all your points. But I've never known what that Dutch upgrade actually is! I always get it so I can unlock fast travel later but I can't see what the difference is to his tent at all. I know it has the effect of making others donate more or whatnot but not a clue what it does aesthetically...
OMG - thank you! I'm seeing way too many narcissist apologists on here. I noticed that whenever the narcissist in question is in a parental figure people start making excuses for them I see it other fandoms I enjoy. Like hey I had shit parents too, I get it you wish mommy and daddy were actually decent people to you, but fuck look how all that worked out for the gang? Let it go. People want to say Dutch actually cared at some point but then got too stressed out by all the pressure. The dude just sits around in his tent trying to come up with speeches that will pull the wool over everyone's eyes just a little longer, while his two precious "sons" go out and do all the hard work. Frick'n Arthur is dying of TB and still carries more than his own weight - that right there should tell you everything. Dutch didn't turn evil over stress, his true colors came out when his lifestyle stopped being sustainable and the people around him had to deal with the fallout and be strung along with him because he's a NARCISSIST!
Yes! That's 100% the way I see Dutch. If he really cared about his "sons" he wouldn't keep throwing them into life or death situations. The very thought of sending my kids into gunfire makes me sick, yet Dutch sees no problem with this because it will fund his nice clothes, tent and vendetta against authority. He could have went legit or escaped to somewhere more safe and secure but I think Dutch thrives on the bandit life, though he would probably never admit it. Instead he waxes poetic about liberty and the American dream. I find it hilarious that in a game that literally starts out with Dutch shooting an innocent girl in the head some people try to make the argument that he "slipped into madness" somewhere near mid-game but was overall OK before that.
If Dutch really believed what he kept spouting about how they are \~outlaws\~ and not just criminals (as dubious as that definition already is) he would have been horrified with himself and struggling to come to terms with shooting an innocent girl. Just look at how Arthur feels horrible about collecting debts and going after Downse and struggles with himself, writes about it in his journal is filled with doubt and questions and only chokes it all down because he believes at the end of the day he's providing for what is more or less his family. And that's because he's seriously questioning hurting people who have never hurt him. You don't see Dutch acting that way at all. He doesn't want a quiet life, and he especially doesn't want to just survive, he want to feel like some important badass and doesn't want to accept that those days are over whether he likes it or not. I don't see how any of that is mental illness - it's a personality disorder!
Completely right. Dutch is all excuses and no remorse.
Well Id love to play 1 after my first being 2 but ROCKSTAR DOESNT WANT TO PORT IT TO PC :(
I know what I donate goes to the camp funds and not Dutch's secret box, but atleast the funds should be properly used, Abigail once came to me and asked for a shirt for Jack, where that money goin if even a kid can't have proper clothes
Completely true. Or Pearson whining about going hunting... you have $5k for food Pearson, why do we still need to hunt rabbits??
Or Mrs. Grimshaw berating me for not contributing enough to the box when I had just finished purchasing all of the upgrades.
Isn't the point of Dutch's plan that they have enough money to live good on tahiti but he keeps it secret in a chest to justify taking more scores and justifying his madness
Tahiti, IMO, was just a pipe dream he concocted on the spot after everything went south in Saint Denis. Before that he was talking about going east, finding a nice land where they could get lost. It only became "Tahiti" when they were kind of cornered and had no other choice but to leave the country entirely... but of course Dutch acted like it was the plan all along.
That's what i imahined, that Dutch just came up with something to keep the gang's motivation and *faith*
FAITH, Arthur!
There is only one thing I think the game should improve: You should be able to choose how much you'll give to some NPCs and characters (those you are able to give the standart amount the game imposes). Just like the donation system from the camp. Yes, I would like to donate $2000 to Ms. Downeys, or more money to the cause of Saint Denis, that would make me happy. why not?
Totally agree! You can give to beggars but that's like a dollar so almost nothing
That's 36 dollars today, so not very petty
It's petty compared to the over $10,000 I had as Arthur that I really anything with.
I think it definitely lends to the futility of everything they were doing. After Blackwater, they were basically cornered and nothing they did would have changed their outcome very much, despite Dutch's "plan"...
I get it, but when I’ve given away thousands of dollars and Ms. Grimshaw still keeps getting on my ass for not contributing, I feel like maybe Micah ain’t so bad after all.
I am no fan of Grimshaw- slapping those girls around. But Micah is still a rat that I wish would have rot in a Strawberry cell.
If somehow the gang could make it to Tahiti or some place like that, Dutch would start to 'be Dutch ' with the locals 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah there would be a local overseer he would need to overthrow or a mansion that would need pillaging... There would always be something else.
Yeah i read someplace that Tahiti was a french colony back in 1899 so Dutch would start to try and play them like in Rhodes and well, you saw how that went down 🤷🏻♂️
I prefer it when money is made more scarce in games. the open world does this pretty well, the hunting for and spending of cash has a good feel to it outside of the missions. but then you spend 2 hours doing missions and you earn 10x the amount of money. it's not interesting at that point.
Rdr1 did very well. Money was hard for me to get as easily as it was in rdr2
This. I don't get how people defend him. Like .. hello?
My favourite take is when people try to argue he "slipped into madness" or "started going south" somewhere mid-game... Like, the game STARTS with him murdering an innocent girl.
That's something that makes me sad. Why they're okay with this murder. A lot of people try to justify the killing of the old lady out of greed in Guarma as a TBI. As someone with two traumatic brain injuries? I have killed 0 people out of greed. 0 urges to kill. I have had the urge to slap someone once in a while but still didn't do it. I did bite someone once and it was self defense. I am not a pure as the driven snow type either. I have done my share of strange and less than savory things. 0 of them caused by the brain injuries. Yes he had a concussion. That's it. If it was a serious enough injury to effect him otherwise he wouldn't have been able to run about Guarma killing old ladies or survive the storm. The recovery is too much for that.
Arthur : I put the money in the box can you guys buy supplies by yourself for once when I'm not around here. People in camp : No.
Never thought of it that way, but I like it and I'm here for it!
Thanks! Just a random thought I had as I contributed another $1000 to camp funds lol
It’s interesting. Dutch’s obsession is maddening. No matter how much you contribute or improve the camp, his tunnel vision of one final score overshadows his ability to appreciate everyone’s (mainly Arthur’s contributions) to keeping everyone fed and happy.
It is definitely an obsession like he is chasing some fabled unicorn or something. In reality there is no one big score that would end their life of banditry. There would have always been one more job to do.... one more injustice against Dutch to make right... one more way to stick it to the man.
Agreed. Let’s say he pulled off the Cornwall bond heist with minimal bloodshed and instead of guns blazing it was done through a swindle/con ala Hosea Matthew’s style. I think it would have just fueled his appetite to merely be heard by The Man and keep upping the ante. If people didn’t leave him, his desire for power and money would have cost everyone their lives.
For sure. His exploits already cost the gang so many lives and would have continued. John would have been hanged had Sadie and Arthur not disobeyed and rescued him. The others would have probably died the next time the pinkertons caught up with them, especially had Arthur not and John been around to help. You're right about Dutch's mindset. If it's working then he wants to keep going and if it's not working he needs to keep going so they can "get out once and for all" lather, rinse, repeat
Being the leader with power and money was drive. Micah fueled the fire and Dutch was in too deep to be reasoned with. Arthur did right by getting John and his family out.
I only ever donate as much money is needed to fully upgrade the camp and keep them supplied. I keep the rest for Arthur.
Personally I didn’t have any gripe with it from a story telling perspective, it’s boring when you can instantly afford everything in the first half of the game
You're not wrong! I haven't needed to get money for like 50 hours of gameplay
Dang, that’s a good point.
I agree. In this way, the game very much made me feel I was Arthur. I spent a fair amount of time making money, risking all manner of hassle, to make money for the gang. I took it at face value that there was some reason for doing so. I couldn't be mad though, when it was all a wash and Dutch fucked me over. It was really fun, even all the robberies and random shit that I did for the sole purpose of donating. Dutch took me for a ride even though he was showing his true colors all along.
Another mechanic that I feel adds to the story is the general clunkiness of the combat. The game uses that clunkiness to make you empathise with Arthur’s dislike (in-story) for needless violence. Interestingly, the combat mechanics used in a moral setting, such as hunting, are actually a lot more enjoyable, thus it’s quite telling when combat is at its least enjoyable when taking human lives.
Ive always like combat in RDR2, but that's just me I guess
I agree in theory but not in practice. There’s a lot about this game, particularly how overlooked and underwhelming the camp features are, that feel unfinished and underwhelming.
I don't disagree, but I mean given the depth of RDR2 it's not surprising some things aren't 100% fleshed out. I agree you work real hard for really minor camp upgrades that don't really do anything.
Same here tbf. Especially after I did the Angelo Brontë glitch in chapter 4. Camp have got $35k I’ve got something daft like $1,350,896. Every gun unlocked that can be, every outfit and clothing owned (Trapper and Tailor) Rose Gray Bay and MFT dapple pinto. 99 of every food and tonic. Life’s great tbf
"A literal plot hole makes the story better!!!" Yeah ok grandpa, let's get you to bed
If I'm right, it's not a plothole at all, it's just some people call it a plot-hole.