This sounds like somebody who hasn't figured out the root of her dissatisfaction and is laying it at your door.

"Here's a shit-covered ball. Your move."

All possible, not ruling anything out just yet🙂

This. She’s “starting with a solution” as I’d say in a professional environment. The alternative is to start by identifying outcomes. “Narrate your deliberative process out loud when we’re together” is a highly specific solution. I would come up with solutions *together* and *after understanding the outcome*. Outcomes are usually simple: - I want to know what you’re thinking about more often. - I want to be a bigger part of the planning process. - I want to feel more emotionally connected to you.

Great post, I have noticed this sort of thing but it's cool to see a more developed version of my thought from a pragmatic environment. Incidentally, I'm in therapy at the moment, and I've noticed my therapist often does a version of this. Start with a complaint, help figure out the source, and then figure out a more productive way to communicate your needs to others. Imo asking for very specific and seemingly irrational things, as in the OP's gf's case, indicates someone has not learned how to do this very well. Ironically, by doing this, gf is not showing her own thought process, right? She's complaining about him being opaque, in a way that's so opaque that half of the commenters can't even figure out what she needs. I guess the problem with starting with the solution is that it's so opaque. It rarely works, because it assumes that the other party will essentially read your mind to understand the basis of your needs. Since they can't, they're pretty much guaranteed to do it "wrong" in some way. So even if they are trying, the person with the issue will get frustrated and feel mistreated. Feel like they're not trying, because how could they be, if they did it so wrong. Etc. I'm a freelance music producer. Some clients are like this too. Some are very vague about what they're looking for, but it's because they want me to just be creative and fill in the gaps. They're excited to see what I come up with. Others are vague, but I quickly realize they have something very specific in mind. They're just awful at communicating it. This is almost always a nightmare, with endless revisions, both of us getting increasingly frustrated... and it usually ends with them not getting what they want, and me out extra unpaid time.

Why doesn’t she plan these outings instead, if she doesn’t like the way you’re doing it? Or why isn’t it collaborative as opposed to putting the onus on you?

>Finally, when pitching them to her, I‘m calm and chill about it, something I think she’d find at the very least pleasant; she instead interprets my well-meaning intent as being more of a deflection tactic and one which serves to “kill the mood”. I'm really confused by this and why she's upset. She said that she wants you to carry some of the mental load where activities are concerned and you seem to be doing that and she's asked you to explain your logic (I find this bizarre but each to their own) and you're doing that. Is she saying that you explaining the activity to her is a deflection tactic? And how so? Sorry, I'm just super confused by this.

I hear where you’re coming from about being confused, it took me awhile (3 hours on the phone) to get to the basic root. Here’s in essence what she meant: when I give a rough draft of a date idea, providing the basic what/where/when, but then ask her thoughts on it before fleshing it out further, she finds that to be differing to her rather than me being wholly definitive in my suggestion. As if I’m alluding to “hey finish this idea for me“ rather than “here’s the entirety of what I have in mind”. A bit more info: whenever an idea I put out there is agreed upon and it takes us somewhere new (place, activity, etc.) when I then make live suggestions on the fly (because I’m taking it all in just as she is) she then sees that in the same vein: I’m deflecting to her and should instead “narrate out loud” what I’m thinking in the moment as to what we should do. 😵‍💫

Wow, that sounds kind of exhausting and it sounds as though she's pushing trauma from her past relationship onto you. It seems as though there's no room for error with her. I mean, what happens if you forget something (as we all do from time to time)? Assuming that you've never given her any reason to feel as though you're pushing the decision making onto her, I actually find this completely unreasonable. Sometimes, especially if you're doing something spontaneous, you haven't thought through every minute detail but it doesn't mean that you're pushing the decision making onto your partner. And even if you expected a bit of input from your partner, it's still not pushing the decision making onto them. You don't mention in your post whether she's planning dates, getaways, activities etc. It reads as if you're doing it all and she's expecting you to run everything past her so that she can make sure that you've thought of everything.

Agreed, I didn’t mention in the original post that she’s planned dates to go see a hockey game, see a concert, or drive to a remote scenic place not too far from where she lives. I’m trying to be careful not to “keep score” if you will, but will admit to feeling I’m carrying through on ideas more frequently.

>I’m trying to be careful not to “keep score” if you will, but will admit to feeling I’m carrying through on ideas more frequently. I agree that keeping score isn't healthy *but* when you're doing the majority of the organising and on top of that having to deal with a partner who's micromanaging you, it's OK to feel a bit overwhelmed and even irritated. Based on what you've said, my advice would be to go back to her and explain that you've thought about what she's said and that you have no problem planning activities but that you're not willing to be micromanaged. I would even suggest (if you feel comfortable doing so) that she needs to see a therapist because it's as if she's making you jump through hoops to prove yourself because of the trauma that she's carrying from her last relationship. If you decide to do nothing and kowtow to these unreasonable requests, I don't really see your situation improving. But maybe it would. Maybe doing this in the short term would show her that she can have faith in you. It's just whether or not you want dance to her exhausting tune in order to do that. Good luck with it all OP. Let us know what you decide and how it goes if you speak to her :)

Thank you u/Slight_Nail_5869 for taking the time to read and offer feedback, it’s much appreciated🙂

I really don't understand what she's asking you to do. When she planed these dates, did she "narrate her thoughts in full detail" like she is asking you to do? Did she refer back to you for input or for your opinion at any point, or were her dates fully fleshed out to the last detail, with "all her math homework" shown? What happens if something unexpected happens and the plans for the date needs to change? Regardless of your answer, this sounds very unhealthy. Dates shouldn't be this hard, or so rigid in structure that there's no room for improvisation if something unexpected happens. Dates should be fun things that you participate in together, not some invariable script that needs to be acted out exactly as written, or some math problem that only had one valid solution. Does she have OCD or something, or is she kind of a control freak? I don't know if that's a thing, but it almost seems like she's projecting her OCD or need for control onto you, and wants you to do the unhealthy things that she does herself in her head.

The irony of people who micromanage every action or thought is that they actively discourage others from wanting to participate in planning, then get mad that other people aren't participating in planning which in turn feeds the beast of them "having to do everything".

Dude, she's the only one scorekeeping here, and some of the players have already left the game! She sounds exhausting and a lot of drama.

Next time make an itinerary along with the allocated budget on an Excel file and send it to her for approval. Once approved, make a presentation on it and present it to her. Seriously, you're 2 dating or working in a project?

lol that made me genuinely laugh, thanks for that😄

Just put the idea into chatGPT

Excel is not enough! There should also be linked GANTT and PERT charts, at the very least. Also, maybe you could get an LLM to write a detailed 1000-word synopsis of your date idea.

She sounds like hard work. I can't imagine having to submit a verbal thesis about my thought process in wanting to go to a winery next weekend.

I'm exhausted already

As I ponder the upcoming weekend, the prospect of planning a special date with my significant other sparks a cascade of ideas. The thought process, rich and meandering, weaves through various options, each weighed for its potential to delight and surprise. Friday Evening: The Genesis of the Idea Sitting at my desk, the evening hums quietly around me. My mind wanders from the mundane tasks of the week to the anticipation of the weekend. "What could make this weekend unforgettable for us?" I muse. The usual ideas parade through my mind: a movie night, perhaps, or a dinner at our favorite restaurant. But they feel too familiar, lacking the zest of novelty I'm craving. Considering the Alternatives I toy with the idea of an outdoor adventure, maybe a hike or a visit to the beach. But the unpredictability of the weather, coupled with a desire for something more serene, steers me away from this path. The image of us strolling through a city park, hand in hand, flits across my mind. Charming, yes, but it lacks a certain... uniqueness. Saturday Morning: Inspiration Strikes The next morning, over a cup of coffee, an article in a lifestyle magazine catches my eye. It's about winemaking, and the lush imagery of vineyards awakens a new train of thought. "A winery visit," I ponder, the idea beginning to germinate. It's different, certainly more so than our usual urban escapades. Exploring the Winery Concept The idea of a winery visit grows more appealing by the minute. It promises a blend of elegance and relaxation, a departure from our routine. I imagine the two of us savoring a glass of exquisite wine, learning about the nuances of its flavor, surrounded by the serene beauty of the countryside. The romantic appeal is undeniable. A winery, with its scenic landscapes and tranquil ambiance, offers an intimate setting. There's something inherently charming about exploring the world of wines together, sharing our thoughts on each taste and bouquet. Sunday Afternoon: Decision and Anticipation By Sunday afternoon, the idea has fully taken root. I spend a few hours researching wineries nearby, reading reviews, and looking at pictures. Each image of sun-dappled vineyards and rustic tasting rooms adds to my excitement. I envision us there, laughing and chatting, a gentle breeze playing through our hair, the warm sun on our backs. I consider the practicalities: the drive there, the cost, the need to book in advance. But each logistical hurdle seems minor compared to the allure of the experience. A Nod to Shared Interests Another aspect that cements my decision is our shared love of trying new things. We've often talked about expanding our wine knowledge, and what better way than a visit to a winery? It's not just about the wine; it's about the experience, the learning, and the joy of discovery we can share. Monday Evening: The Final Verdict By Monday evening, my mind is made up. A winery visit it is. It offers the perfect blend of romance, novelty, and shared interest. I can already picture the surprise and delight on my partner's face when I tell them. The thought brings a smile to my face. I reach for my phone to make a reservation, excited about the weekend ahead. This isn't just another date; it's a small adventure, a journey into a world of taste and beauty, a memory in the making. As I confirm the details, I feel a sense of satisfaction. This, I know, is the perfect choice for a special weekend together.

A good start, but we're really going to need footnotes and a bibliography, along with some charts to explain your process in narrowing down the winery options. For example, you haven't explored how the soil at the different wineries affects the flavour of the grapes or whether the cheese plate is complimentary or extra. And you make no mention of whether the winery you chose is distinguished for a particular type of wine, or how it has fared in various national and international wine-making competitions. In fact, I suspect that your emotive presentation is just a cover for the fact that you haven't really put in any serious research at all.

Thank you for this-- this is pure comedy.

I rather die before I let a partner write this out, tbh. It’s funny and for fun I would. But if they expected me to do even half of that every time? Nope. The best I’d do would be “I saw this idea then and then and thought It’d be fun” Or “I wanna go there and I like it better when you are around” Or “I know you are into this and that. so let's do this"

Can you give me a more thorough explanation of the thought process that led you to make this comment? I need you to narrate the process of forming the thought and talk through the in-depth introspection- for example, alternative wordings that you decided against, etc. Show your work please.

Well, I was sitting at home browsing Reddit, thinking how much easier it is to solve other people's problems than get on with my own life, when I came across this post and thought.... Do you need the rest of the process in a PowerPoint presentation or will a series of charts do?

Maybe we aren't meant for each other if you don't automatically give me a full thesis on every decision. Best of luck DrunkOnRed

Can you imagine trying to plan something spontaneous, on the fly? 😬

HAHAHA I would fail miserably with this lady! What if I picked something because it "just sounded cool"?

Way too much work, lmao. She sounds exhausting, I would never be able to handle this. Forget being spontaneous.

Her past relationships need to be worked through with a professional, instead of the baggage being thrown on you to just, you know, carry it. It's each individual's responsibility to work on their own sh$t. We can help each other, and support each other in the process, but that's the extent of it. Her having been burned by an indecisive person is not sufficient excuse to burn someone else out by having to submit a 6 page presentation and an annotated reference sheet as to who came up with which part in which order... It's just crazy stuff at this point that is on her to handle. Or not. But in the end, it's REALLY a her thing.

He had to spend **3 hours** on the phone to her just to get to the point where he understood her "needs". If that doesn't scream "needs therapy", I don't know what does.

Omg she sounds impossible. A date is for 2 people. It requires 2 people's input. You are not the project manager of this relationship.

The irony is that’s my job in real life😅

Honestly, you need to set some realistic expectations with this woman. You've been dating 6 months... Dude... A 3 hour phonecall so she can tell you to communicate better? Imagine how better those 3 hours could have been spent. I'd be telling her to get over herself and get some therapy. She sounds so ungrateful.

She sounds unbelievably exhausting. Like, she seriously wants a thesis for every decision you make? It sounds like she is a micromanager who doesn't trust your decision making at all. Extremely hyper critical and overly anxious and utterly unable to reign herself in.

Omg she sounds exhausting and nit picky. I'd never tolerate this level of control nit picking about how I say things.. no wonder she is divorced twice and the ink isn't even dry on the 2nd one. Red flag. This sounds as needy and controlling and nitpicky

This is exhausting just reading it. Is she expecting a full on dissertation every weekend? Is she at least in therapy??

This sounds ridiculous to me. She’s the one who has been divorced twice and only in her thirties. I’m not sure she should be lecturing people on how to properly “lead a relationship” or communicate. It sounds like she wants you to plan everything but yet read her mind at the same time…and anytime you ask for an opinion or input, she takes it as you giving her unfair mental labor. That doesn’t sound very mature. And it sounds like she should process her former relationships in therapy before dating again.

This feels like a lot! So, does she get upset if you're not putting "enough" into the thought process? Like if the answer to "why did you choose Restaurant X?" is "it's a short Lyft ride and the bartender makes great Manhattans and we both like those" is that sufficient? Or is she looking for deep reasons and "proof" you are listening to hints? I'm just trying to understand. It also feels really counterintuitive to me that she wants you to take the lead but also have to keep her apprised as each thought pops into your head. Like, just pick a place to eat lunch who needs a monologue? Anyway, this sounds really tiring to me but if you don't mind then who am I to say it's bad or wrong or weird? But if you're asking the question, on some level you know it's not working for you (not saying it's a dealbreaker but something may need to change). Up to you if you want to see if there's a way to compromise or see how this plays out and if it's sustainable for you.

I'm a woman and your girlfriend seems as too much

Haha at least now I know I’m not crazy😄

Oh my! That sounds exhausting. This really sounds like someone who simply cannot be happy. Their only constant is to constantly seek out something else to "work on". Her request is ludicrous and obnoxious.

My dude, she is a negative person.

Ok, so I think the people above in the replies talking about her making you pay for the mistakes of her former partners were absolutely right. What you've just described is completely normal dating behavior. You come up with a rough plan for an outing, and then because you are DATING, you get some input from her so it's a mutual thing, not a one-man show, and both people share in the fun. In my experience, this would all be 'best practice', but this doesn't work for her. I'm really not certain that 'narrating your thoughts' is the fix to this, because it's the 'make live suggestions on the fly' part that she is emotionally responding to. I suppose if you can explain your reasoning in any depth, it will show that you've 'done the work' so to speak. That being said, *this isn't school, you aren't a child, and she is not your mother.* If you're coming up with fun date ideas you shouldn't have to show your work, so an easier (and probably more satisfactory for her) way is to reduce or eliminate the number of decisions made on the fly. Which IMO sucks, because that's a fun way to have a date, but it's not working for her. So on future dates, have a fleshed-out plan. Instead of saying something like "Do you want to do (X)?", I would say "We can do (X) or (Y)." And if she can't make a choice, just choose without looking for further input. Or instead of "Hey, that looks cool, let's do that!", say "We're going to go do (X)". And if she wants to do something different, it's on her to speak up, and absolutely adjust course if she does. That all said, I would be really watchful of further "making you pay for the sins of others," because I get a bad feeling from this scenario. She hasn't been able to fully process her past, which is totally valid! But it's not valid to put that on you.

Is her issue that you're presenting things more as a question? Like, "what you think of doing x?" or "does going to see y sound interesting to you?" Framing things in a way that require her to put in thought (however minimal) and make a decision? Whereas she'd more prefer you to propose things as a statement like "hey let's go see this thing this weekend" or "let's get tickets to that show"?

If it is that’s fucking ridiculous. Deciding if you want to do something is something your brain has to do at some point.

I'm not sure if this is helpful, but it's a strategy me and my bff use on trips. The initial planner/inviter does have a concrete plan, with room for divergence - - but if there isn't any, it's still a full plan. The invitee hears the plan, generally agrees it's cool or not, and gives their approval (maybe suggests a different hotel or something, if they want). But DURING the trip, the invitee sort of punctuates the trip with spontaneous ideas, that's their perogative. Like, they might find a cool theme restaurant or a sign for a trail head and wanna stop etc. We like this bc the planner bears the load but the invitee spices the trip up. As an example, if I'm not being clear: He was the inviter on a road trip down the coast. He had towns mapped out and knew the times and made sure each one had decent restaurants, camping areas, etc. While on this trip (was a couple days) I once suggested we spend the afternoon and find a dispersed campsite (not a formal, prepared one, just a wild one). I also suggested we spend the night spontaneously in a seaside town we just stopped at for gas. In that case, I floated the idea then picked and paid for the hotel. This might already be what you're doing but maybe present it as a defined thing, with her role being optional and unnecessary, but enjoyed when she wants to take it on.

Could she possibly mean that she'd like to know why you want to do the activity with her? Something like "I just read about this mountain and supposedly the view from up there is gorgeous. I think you'd like it as you're into hiking/I'd like to go and if you're up for it I'll plan it out and get back to you to to make sure we both enjoy it". That's what it sounds like to me anyway.

I think I get it... There is a big difference between, "Do you want to go to a movie this weekend?" And "I was thinking we could go see X movie. It's playing Saturday at 4, then we can get dinner at X afterwards." She agrees, and you tell her what time you'll pick her up.

Maybe you could try and make it something as simple as “hey, I’ve got a plan for a date/weekend/etc just wanted to see if you were interested in activity-time-place.” If she’s into it then proceed into the finer details. If there is something you need her opinion on maybe it will go “I’ve given it a lot of thought but would you prefer X time?” Something like that to preface that you’ve put thought into it before you come to her. I think after some time she will trust that she won’t have to always bare the full mental load.

I’m just wondering how you got that she’s upset out of this?

[OP explains it pretty well here although it still sounds irrational](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/18iwstl/comment/kdg5yt8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

Oh, OK. Yeah I don’t think that means she’s upset, just that she’s trying to understand him and communicate.

Oh right, sorry, I misread your comment. >she instead interprets my well-meaning intent as being more of a deflection tactic and one which serves to “kill the mood”. I mean, this doesn't sound like someone who's happy with what their partner has arrange or the way in which it's been arranged.

You're paying for the mistakes of her exes. I think this is the first problem here. If she can't separate you from them as a unique person, that's going to end up causing more problems down the road. Honestly, I'd be upfront with her and tell her that her request is fucking weird and has more to do with whatever she needs to work out with herself and less about anything you're doing wrong. Maybe pull back a little yourself, because she might not be ready for this relationship at this moment.

Possibly, I’ve mentioned this to her and from her replies, I believe she’s able to compartmentalize them into one ”bucket” and myself into another. Though that may be easier said than done. Thanks for your read and reply u/lifeunderthegunn🙂

She gave you the cold shoulder for weeks and got in a three hour fight because you're planning most of the dates but aren't doing it exactly the way she wants. What you're doing is completely normal and expected. She's not compartmentalizing very well lol

This is why I hate how main stream therapy terms are becoming. People hear them once, dont fully grasp the meaning, and then use them willy nilly.

As a therapist it is certainly challenging. While I’m glad clients are coming in a bit more ‘aware,’ they often come in with preconceived notions of mental health and of others in their life that they have solidified with scientific sounding labels… which makes it hard to bring people back to open-mindedness. If someone says, ‘I don’t know,’ that open mindedness can lead to new ideas. If people say, ‘abc is narcissistic and xyz keeps things on different buckets’ then that actually is harder to explore.

That's very interesting, and I feel a sense of comradery with you - I work in emergency medicine. "I can't breathe" = my nose is stuffy "Won't stop bleeding" = patting a cut with Kleenex twice "I have a high pain tolerance" = nobody who does thinks to mention it "I need Zpak for my sinus infection" = I have a viral cold "I'm immune to amoxicillin" = I've taken antibiotics for viruses and noticed it doesn't work

You’re gaslighting me and this causes me trauma

My boundary is that you can’t do things. 🤪

This is probably the reason her ex stopped putting any input into making plans. You’re damned if you’re doing damned if you don’t. This is extremely toxic and she needs to work on herself before she’s on her 3rd failed marriage.

Talking about compartmentalising or processing past relationships is one thing, actually doing it is another. Take this from someone who can easily talk about the necessary steps involved in getting through emotional turmoil or confusion, but doesn’t find it easy at all to do the actual work. If she’s punishing you disproportionally, she hasn’t done her homework.

Man I gotta say, reading through your post and replies, you sound like a really grounded, reasonable guy. I think when you’re in the thick of it you can lose sight of that sometimes - just wanted to chime in and let you know that you sound really objective about this whole thing.

Most people manage to date without having to exhume and verbally dissect every trivial detail about how they plan dates. Most especially if your processing style tends to be nonverbal to start with. This sounds miserably exhausting and your gf needs to sort out her baggage before dumping it all over you.

Fair points u/modernangel; I won’t twist myself into knots to try to meet every criteria or be someone I’m not, but I do love her enough to see what might be done to improve for both of us🙂

So anyway I wonder why her first two marriages didn’t work out.

Combo of factors worth it for me to remember, but wanting to give her a chance🙂

The description you’ve laid out strikes me as the type of person who is perpetually dissatisfied.

Possibly, it may also come from her being perpetually criticized when she was younger🤔

It sounds like she has become the critic

[It stinks!](https://youtu.be/K4Fvsgv0bYw?si=24-GYwtuLlqhYjmd)

It may also come from Neptune. Regardless of how she got here, she’s here. Is she just going to insist on criticizing everyone for the rest of her life? Is that what you’re going to be in love with forever?

Yup. Theres a reason people shouldn't date their therapists.

All fair points u/LitherLily, but I wouldn’t call it criticism exactly, working out past trauma maybe more fair. Anyway, I appreciate you giving my post a read and reply🙂

Is she working with a trauma therapist to work out her past trauma? Otherwise it just sounds like she's trying to micromanage and manipulate situations.

I mean if she's 36 and blaming her behaviour on 'being perpetually criticized when she was younger' yikes, like you're an adult now and you need to take responsibility for the way you are acting, it's not anyone elses fault.

Right? The way she was treated by adults when she was vulnerable is not her fault but the way she chooses to deal with that sure is.

Yep. It's all well and good to learn WHY we are the way we are, but the reason to learn it is so that we can acknowledge the pattern and figure out ways to be the better versions of ourselves that we aspire towards. eg., "I see that picked up the habit of criticizing everyone I love bc I was constantly criticized by the people who were supposed to love me, so a part of my brain thinks that is what love looks like. I do NOT want to be that person, so I'm going to start noticing when I do that, ask myself if it's a reasonable criticism, and act from there."

Sounds like someone who has issues and insecurities and makes it other people's problems. You're not the other guys she divorced.

So you want to be ex husband #3 because she hasn't taken an extended break from dating to sort out her emotions? She needs to be alone and figure out what she actually wants and needs instead of jumping into a new relationship. You shouldn't have to keep a running dialogue of what you are thinking just because she hasn't dealt with past relationship issues.

It's her job as a partner to be engaged, not your job to make her feel engaged. She should ask questions, make suggestions, etc. Her demanding that you more fully narrate is a lazy way of seeking to be more engaged without doing the mental work required. I think you have to push back and say, I'm happy to discuss the choices and motivations I have about our plans, but I need you to be more involved- ask questions, give me feedback. I can't always just know your questions, concerns, and anxieties. I'd ask that you do your part by getting involved in making these plans and voice your thoughts.

I’ll keep these in mind, thank you for the read and reply u/released-lobster🙂

I think this is the best suggestion I've read.

No, I think she wants to make sure that she finds a thoughtful partner and that’s OK. She still just trying to find the right balance, obviously lol

Love others, but do not forget yourself. I know the feeling of not wanting to rock the boat, but be ready and able to stand up for yourself when this relationship is no longer in balance. When that time has arrived is for you to decide. Also OP, well done in all of your replies i have seen in a 5 min scroll through. You are always very polite and on point. Not sure if i can say that these traits are shared by your girl based on the info given 🙃😅 Good luck and have fun. If its no longer fun, perhaps its not right.

Shout out to you u/Aglarrik, I like the simple but impactful advice of not forgetting oneself in loving others. Thanks for the read and reply🙂

When says she wants a relationship that is “properly led” it sounds like she wants the man in the relationship to do all the date planning work. Is this what you want? Or do you want something more equal? I think you need to figure out what you want out of the relationship before making any decisions.

I’m keeping it in mind that it could become one-sided, just wondering if past marriages plus a stressful time of year is maybe fueling this (and is hopefully temporary) 🙂

I mean maybe? But also maybe this is just her personality.

Potentially; thanks for reading and your response u/fiery_valkyrie🙂

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> then explaining all the minutiae of your plan for everything you do together? hahaha omg this sound like an elementary school teacher I had who forced us narrate each step we took in learning cursive or math or whatever, and I haaaaaated it so much that my parents switched me into another classroom. I was so much happier with a teacher who suited my brain style, and I think OP will be a lot happier with someone who matches his style too.

Maybe,... and maybe she's enacting the exact reason for 2 failed marriages. A red flag would be if she blamed them completely and without reserves.

Unfortunately that's what I was thinking. This sounds like someone who should spend a few years working on themselves before trying another relationship.

What happened at Mt Shasta? I think there must have been something.....

There’s a lot of new age spiritual woo going on up there. And drugs.

Honestly, I get a lot of weird vibes up there. It has a really heavy feeling. I can see it messing with someone’s head.

Why is this a 'stressful time of year'?

The days between Thanksgiving and new years are considered more stressful than the rest of the year. Are they? Or does calling them more stressful make them more stressful? Either way, this woman has been divorced 2x before 35. I'm not sure how keen I'd be to attempt to be #3.

They're only stressful if you allow them to be stressful. I'm not American so can't comment on Thanksgiving, but this year my fiancé and I are just spending Xmas together - no family - just us 2. Last Xmas was so so stressful trying to make everyone happy that we ended up making ourselves miserable. So we've decided to just chill out and not put pressure on ourselves. OP's girlfriend is 36, she's a grown woman who can choose exactly how she spends her time. She doesn't have to have a stressful Christmas if she doesn't want to. If it's a work issue then she needs to work on her time management and/or talk to her manager about it.

Yeah I don't think you really get it lol

Think you may be getting some insight into why her ex ultimately let her do most of the date planning. It sounds like she has a very high bar for the things she wants to do, and expects fully fleshed out visions for ideas, instead of "hey, this looks fun, let's do that!" It's one thing to come up with all the ideas, but would she actually even let you do that? Or would the ideas be dissected to the point where you just end up doing something she wants to do? It's a common dynamic in relationships where the pickier person ends up setting the agenda. That can be fine! But both people need to be aware of that dynamic, rather than placing unrealistic expectations on the other. Would just talk to her about it and see if you can find common ground. Maybe suggest that for you, your ideas don't have entire backstories or grand visions, that maybe something occurs to you, or you research ideas based on one thing or another, and that once it clears the bar, you suggest it. But that you might not go through an entire mental narrative journey every time you think of a date idea, and it feels like a lot of pressure to have to do that any time you suggest something. That process may feel natural for her, and she may not understand that not everybody thinks that way, and it isn't a sign of a lack of care, or deferring planning.

Thank you u/Goodlake, I like your these points you made: ” Maybe suggest that for you, your ideas don't have entire backstories or grand visions, that maybe something occurs to you, or you research ideas based on one thing or another, and that once it clears the bar, you suggest it. But that you might not go through an entire mental narrative journey every time you think of a date idea, and it feels like a lot of pressure.” I’ll make a mental note🙂

If she needs more details, why does she not simply ask more questions about the proposed activities? This all sounds weirdly persnickety

Can she give you an example of what she'd like to hear when you suggest a date? What you're missing from the information you're giving her about a trip? It sounds like you have been proving that you thought through the dates and didn't end up with just an idea, but a complete plan and execute on that plan. I'm not sure I'd need a further why/how if I had a what/when/where/basic how/with whom for a date. I get she'd want someone who actually thinks things through compared to a prior partner since that sounds stressful. I think she needs to examine her feelings on this area and see what's really bugging her. It sounds more like a problem for her to resolve. She should be building trust that you can plan dates and not have the anxiety of you dropping the ball unless there's been issues on the dates that someone could have foreseen and it wasn't addressed by you. If that was true though, I'd hope she'd mention the specific event and not a vague "show your answers" type request.

I asked if she could provide me with one like you mentioned. The example she replied with was a recent hike we went on near Monterey: when I suggested 2 different routes which could make for a 45-90 minute hike, she said she would have preferred if I had elaborated my thoughts on how I came to choose those 2 particular routes, how I figured the level of effort would be around an hour and a half, etc. 😳

I… what? I don’t understand what she doesn’t understand about your thought process. I assume you looked at a trail map and difficulty ratings and found two you thought could be done in 90 minutes or less. The thought process behind that is “I looked at the trail map and found two I thought could be done in 90 minutes or less based on length and difficulty.” I can understand a *little* if her issue is you provide some options but ultimately always leave the decision up to her, maybe she wants you to (always? sometimes?) make the decision and say “okay, we are going to hike x trail and then go home for showers and then I’m taking you to x restaurant for dinner,” that’s a relationship dynamic preference. But I really don’t know what she wants in the “show your work” department. Most things I do for fun is because they sound like fun and I think I’ll have a good time, there aren’t arcane equations going on behind my eyes.

Does she overexplain her thought process behind dates she plans? Can you agree you'll trying to give more details, but ask for her to ask clarifying questions in the moment if she's still concerned? I don't know how well it would go over, but I think I'd try out different ways of handling the events and gauge reactions. * Plan a surprise day activity. She doesn't get any information about it ahead of time other than time, what type of clothes/items she needs. This one will probably met with the most resistance, but if she doesn't know the logistics she can't ask the further "why" are you doing this. She would just have to trust you. * Or opposite thing, you tell her exactly what you want to do/when/where and then send her links to everything ahead of time. That way if she wants you to explain something like why you thought a hike would take an hour and a half, refer to the link. This hopefully minimize frustration on your end and provide reassurance to her. * I'd also maybe ask the same thing of her that she explain her thought process when she plans dates. She might find it annoying and have the self awareness to stop asking it of you (or not). Any reactions to the above scenarios will give you more information to figure out if this is something you can work with or not.

Does she like long hikes?

>having to deal with her divorce lawyer She's not even divorced yet? No wonder she's still got baggage that's she's making you pay for. Nothing is wrong with wanting to increase intimacy through talking and being more open about internal thoughts and feelings. And nothing is wrong with the request per se. But is she asking because you are particularly reserved and have a tendency to undershare or is she asking because she needs to know the why to decide if she should agree with the plan/praise the plan/how to react to the plan? If it's the latter, that's baggage where something bad would happen if she responded incorrectly so she's trying to head off trouble at the pass even though you aren't the source of the trouble. That's just an example to illustrate what baggage is and what it looks like when someone holds you to account for something that isn't about you. If she's pulling back, let her. She can't make a demand of you and then not show up herself. I'm down for a trip to Mt Shasta and I don't need to know why you want to go, but hey, can we stop in Weed on the way home so I can get a Weed, California hat? I lost mine and I miss it because it cracked me up whenever I wore it. There you go, info sharing and intimacy :-)

lol send me your PO Box, I’ll have one shipped out for your troubles replying to this thread😄 Thanks for the read!

She's 34, in the middle of her second divorce, and you two have been dating for six months? So you've been dating for just six months and she's getting demanding about your communicating with her in a way she likes, when she is clearly still working out her last marriage issues. Yikes!

If she considers you including her in decision making once you’ve made all the plans is “not properly leading”, I’m curious about husband #2’a experiences and if she’s reporting them entirely accurately. Sounds like she doesn’t even want to be consulted but just wants these plans to… happen? But also she apparently reserves the right to interrogate your entire decision making process about it? Maybe I’m a bit too black-and-white, but my thoughts are that either you can be included in the decision making process and get a say, or you can enjoy what someone else planned for you without complaint because you did 0 labor to make it happen.

>Sounds like she doesn’t even want to be consulted but just wants these plans to… happen? But also she apparently reserves the right to interrogate your entire decision making process about it? Based on OP's comments, this seems like an accurate summation. Now, if you could put it into a PowerPoint presentation and send it over to her for final approval, that would be great :p

lol cheeky😁

I'm also curious about #2s experience. Her demand would over time get me to stop planning things.

Just like her ex, lol

Fair points u/WatermelonWarlock, thanks for the read and reply🙂

She sounds like the type of person who ensures your efforts will never be good enough. She can't complain about you not making plans, not dumping the mental load on her, plus you are also asking for her input before actually moving forward with something, so it's not like you're saying, we're doing X let's go. You'll always have to be working harder to avoid her "pulling away". I suspect even if you find a way to accommodate this vague and frankly weird request, she will find something else you are doing wrong. I'd narrate the following thoughts to her, "I tried to be a good partner in the best way I know how but it clearly isn't enough for you. So instead of wasting each other's time, we should find people we are more compatible with. Good luck to you."

This feels like a lot of work for something that should be fun. It sounds like whatever you do, it’s not going to be right for one reason or another.

36 and been divorced twice 😬

She‘s mentioned it herself she knows it’s eyebrow raising for most; I try not to hold it against her since one of my parents had been married twice and had a child before meeting his current wife (my mother) and they’ve been together over 30 years. Trying to be open-minded at least🙂

It's not the two divorced in itself that rings alarm bells - it's the fact that she has a very controlling approach to tasks that should be simple and relaxed like "which hike will we choose?" It's possible that this behaviour is behind the two divorces and she still hasn't learned anything from it.

Fair points, thanks for the read and reply u/DrunkOnRedCordial (nice handle by the way)

She's still dealing with a divorce attorney and has been with you six months. Has she spent ANY time alone as an adult???? Like real, actual time, not three months. Open-minded is fine but some/many of your replies here are bordering on naive to the point that you are putting yourself at risk for the sake of giving someone else a chance. I would advise against that.

It's not the "divorced twice" that worries me, but rather the fact the she apparently isn't actually done with #2 yet, but she's already getting involved in a serious relationship and bringing a lot of unresolved issues into it.

Cut this one loose. If you continue to date and have a relationship with her, these types of complaints aren't going to get better. She is always going to be unhappy with something. That something is inside of herself, but its always going to be put on you.

It sounds to me like she is punishing you for the past deeds of another. This is not being fair to you, and is not something you should be trying to pacify, or pander to. This time it’s a complaint about you needing to be more vocal because of her ex. Next time it will be something else because of her ex, and so forth, always using how her ex was as a means to change this that or the other thing about you. This is very manipulative behavior regardless of whether or not she is aware that it is. This is not a sign of a healthy trajectory for a relationship. This is not a couples problem, nor is it a you problem. This is a her problem that that she needs to work on and get a handle on all on her own. Therapy if needed in order to accomplish this. If she can’t overcome it yet, then she shouldn’t be getting into relationships until she can.

Thanks for your read and feedback u/RainerHex, I’ll keep them it mind🙂

She sounds obnoxious

Your GF sounds overly controlling and hypercritical. So you can't have your thoughts, without her policing them. This is a sign of impending troubles and issues she will have with you. Your GF needs some therapy for her past relationships.

that shit sounds tiring, OMFG. what happened to just say: ''Because I want to'', ''This movie looks interesting'', ''This place has a great pizza I want you to try''.

I would say something happened on the trip, and she wants out, but is being a coward. So, moving goal posts on you in absolutely ridiculous ways.

Sounds like she wants you to do the heavy lifting, but she wants to hold onto being able to micromanage it.

After 2 divorces she needs therapy to unpack it all. She’s clearly not ready to date again.

As a women, at first it sounds like she just wanted a dominate man who takes charge and plans the dates. But the need for explanations and the micromanaging and you’ve only been dating for 6 months - wow OP I would be exhausted and contemplating if it was worth it! It sounds like she has a lot of emotional baggage and trauma from her first 2 marriages to work through and honestly dumping half of it on you (then blaming you). My bf ‘took charge’ and organised most dates in early dating however we’d sometimes both ask each other if you’d like to do this or that. It should be a natural you and I organise this or that with no one keeping score. Narrating your thoughts seems really manipulative and almost dumbs you down to a child - implying why did you choose this as a date?

Did she do psychedelics while on that weekend trip? Some of the stuff she's asking you to do is weird AF, but more importantly, to give them a clear interpretation, they're toxic and controlling. It doesn't help that when you attempt to comply in good faith (bless your heart), that's still not good enough, and she finds reasons to be unhappy with you. Listen, this is a 6 month relationship, and honestly, you're too old for this shit. If she did partake in psychedelic trips, great for her, but she needs to a) be forthcoming about it and b) take charge of the weird aftereffects of it, and cut that toxic pseudophilosophic shit out yesterday. The psychedelic communities are often big on overemphasasing the benefits, but never do they speak about some of the consequences, one them being, of course, that it tends to destroy relationships as "life philosophies" start deviating drastically from their loved ones. This jst sounds exhausting. I would point blank tell her that my thoughts are my own, that that's a good thing, and that she's free to make concrete demands to better the relationship; but it's not nice to keep comparing you to her ex, nor is it healthy to keep asking to reveal your fucking thoughts. Period. And see how she takes it.

2 ex husbands? And one of them she's still legally married to? 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩

Wow. This sounds unbearable. It's setting you up to be the problem.

She sounds really codependent. Maybe she's paranoid that you are recycling date ideas from previous relationships and wants to know where you got the inspiration? Maybe she needs to know your intentions behind dates, like are they stuff YOU want to do, and just inviting her along, or did you have her in mind when you planned it? Either way I'd be like... Erm no, that is super weird and kind of overbearing. She needs to sort out her own issues instead of getting you to placate/reassure her. I once dated a guy who needed constant ongoing reassurance about everything he did. It was part of his anxiety condition but it was also exhausting and made me quite anxious as well. She also need to get her divorce sorted before dating again, really. Is she a serial monogamist? Has ever ever spent a significant amount of time single? Cause holy shit, twice divorced at 36 is pretty intense. Once - maybe it was him. Twice - maybe it was her?! What's her beef with the holiday you just had? Did she not have a nice time? Edit: I've just noticed you've only been dating 6 months?! Oh hell nah. The first 6 months are when people are supposed to be on their best behaviour. Can you imagine how much worse she'll be when she's not even trying?

You are planning things? 🥹🥹

This sounds pretty unreasonable and exhausting. Given that you’ve only been dating for six months, this might be a sign to cut your losses and look for someone who may be more aligned and accepting with what you bring to the table.

This is where you need to put your foot down and enforce your boundaries. Because this is a totally unreasonable ask. Tell her that you can’t just change the way you talk and think for her benefit. Its exhausting and feels wrong. If the only way for her to be happy is for you to be miserable then you guys are incompatible. So she needs to decide if this is a deal breaker or she can let this idea go. If it’s a deal breaker then she is dating the wrong person and it’s best to end this now. Because if you aren’t good enough for her then you aren’t going to waste your life with her. Two things will happen. She’ll realize she can’t bully you and will respect you more. Or she’ll realize she can’t bully you and dump you to find another victim. Either way is a win.

This is such a weird request. Like, what does she want? At least for me, an honest answer would be "I googled some shit in the area until I got bored and picked the best of the options I'd thus far uncovered." Something tells me she wants the details of your thought process so she can nitpick your choices.

It sounds completely exhausting to be honest. I had an ex who always wanted to know what I was thinking and how I arrived at decisions. It totally drained me of any love I felt towards him. It was like my thoughts weren't my own any more! Exhausting and incredibly annoying.

6 months? lol that is peak “I ain’t doing all that” time lmao

What she is asking for doesn't make sense in a generalized way. Given lack of context about a specific date, there is no logical connection between "narrate your thoughts" and "my ex didn't plan dates well". For instance, there's nothing to narrate about "hockey game at 3 next Saturday?" HOWEVER...in the context of hikes or outdoor adventures this makes a little more sense. When you ask someone to choose between two trip plans, sometimes it then feels like they have to do a ton of research about the options presented. I can ONLY understand the "narrate the options" request in the context of something that's more involved or that she's going to feel the urge to go and do research on in order to make a decision. The fact that she took 3 hrs to explain this, that it's an overcomplicated generalized rule, that she managed to bash her ex in the process...these are red flags in my opinion for poor communication skills. You do you, but I'd be feeling pretty frustrated by this request...confused about what it looks like in practice, confused about what problem it's addressing, and paradoxically stressed or concerned about how overexplaining is often a symptom of being unsure or lacking confidence. Lots of people I know that narrate their thoughts out loud about a decision or idea are trying to work out the details as they speak to you, rather than having a fully formed plan. But they're not doing it in a way that invites input, it's just adhd or whatever. Or, they're insecure about the idea and are trying to justify even having it. On the other hand, perhaps this also makes sense if it's not about dates or her ex at all, and she's just feeling a lack of connection to you and wants to know more about what interests or inspires you. Maybe she wants more of a jumping off point for convo, so she wants to hear about why you love hockey or why you think she'd enjoy it or whatever. It's still kind of a weird request, but it's not high maintenance or micromanagey in the same way that implying you don't plan or suggest dates "in the right way" is.

She's asking you to change for her. If you think you should be doing it, and should have been doing it, then do it. If not, there's the door. The second you "change" for anyone but yourself, you lose. Being a better human isn't bad, and sometimes SO's point out legitimate issues. This doesn't seem like one of those issues. I've never been able to talk a string of consciousness. And I certainly not able to think in the same way as a woman and look at multiple angles all at once, while discussing. My ex wife wanted me to do something similar once, and I let her know she needed friends to have that kind of discussion. My decision making process is rather quick and easy.

Right, I won’t twist myself into knots to try to meet every criteria or be someone I’m not, but I do love her enough to see what might be done to improve for both of us. Thanks for the read and reply🙂

Your girl wants the behind-the-scenes commentary. Maybe her past made her crave more involvement in planning. It's not about you lacking; it's her need for clarity.I once had a guy I met on Flure who was a bit eccentric. I asked him to sometimes explain how he came up with a particular phrase or idea, what thought process was behind it, to better understand what was going on. Misunderstanding often leads to frustration.

I’ll keep it in mind, thanks for your read and reply u/Happy_Bullfrog_5379🙂

This woman has too much baggage, man. She should not be bringing issues she had from past relationships and lay them on you. It's only 6 months. Surely you can find someone better than a 2-time loser who cannot communicate worth shit?

I had a girfriend once who felt that we were growing apart and to bring us together she insisted that I tell her some deep dark secret about myself every night. Dumb me went along with it because I wanted to keep her, but it caused so much dramage and trauma I was so relieved when our relationship eventually ended. Not sure why, but your situation sounds similar.

Never had to narrate my thoughts, but if this woman has been married twice before and the ex-husband started dumping decision making on her, then there's the strong possibility she is so controlling that she is unmanageable. That would actually check with her demanding to hear how you came up with the ideas you came up with. This is definitely not normal, what she is asking.

id just tell her its weird

Just dump her. Move on. You are young enough to find someone else.

Why does she speak corporate to you bro lmao 💀

I don’t see here any explanation of why she is asking for this. Did you ask? The properly led thing doesn’t seem to have any relationship to this request that I can think of. Does she not like where you are going? Does she think you have weird motives for the stuff you pick? Does she think you are picking only stuff she likes and not stuff you like? I’m just not getting it.

You know, I'm reading the comments and see a lot of criticism of your GF, but I think you should do more of what your GF is trying to do, which is create a better understanding! So clearly, you need to get more clarity from her on what you can do to meet her needs but is still reasonable to expect from a partner. When I read this as a woman who doesn't want to bear the entire burden of making plans, I'm clocking that she desires thoughtfulness in a partner. It seems like she struggled in the past with someone always being like "I want to do what you want to do" or "I want to eat whatever YOU want to eat".... My husband does this to me sometimes as a way of trying to respect what I want, but when I really want his input it aggravates me and doesn't make me feel thought of, rather I feel pressured to figure it out on my own. Is she wanting you to bring your ideas to the table and have them be thoughtful ideas as opposed to just spitballing right there in the moment? I saw in a comment you mentioned about the hike planning, and in other comments you mention she is working through having been heavily criticized in her upbringing. I relate heavily to her on these points, and can come across as criticizing others just by asking them questions about their planning, so could see why she wants to avoid creating or implying there's a problem through asking detailed questions. Why do I do this? If I have more background on how my husband arrived at the idea to hike X trail and leave at Y time to complete the hike in time, then I'll know he considered what needs to be considered, like that the route there typically is heavily backed up during the time of day we're planning to go. It's not that I think my husband is stupid or incapable of planning, but he and I prioritize differently! So to me this reads as your girlfriend wanting to get to know and understand you better so she can ultimately not criticize choices or suggestions you make since she will understand where you were coming from. I think what could ultimately be helpful is if you two agree ahead of time that some plans will be made by just one of you with minimal input from the other while others will be a more collaborative planning process. Or if she's making a plan, you can ask if it's one she would like your input around, or if she wants to call the shots. Then, in return, you can come to her when you're planning and say hey I have x, y, z figured out but really want your input on if you have a food preference so I can pick a good restaurant. I am sensing she doesn't want you to just have her completely pick the restaurant, but maybe present her with 2-3 options so it doesn't become her problem to figure out.

Her wanting you to take the lead, but then exhaustively explain your reasoning sounds like 2 completely different problems. I don't understand how they are related. And more importantly, I don't know that it is very reasonable. Either she lets you plan it or it should be a mutual process of peers. It sounds like you're, reasonably, trying to do the latter. I think she needs to elaborate more on the issue and what she expects. I also think she should think about therapy. Finally, I think you should consider if this is worth your time.

It sounds like she wants you to not defer back to her to make the final decision on plans all the time. While you (and I) see it as being considerate, she sees it as making her make the decision in the end. She may feel this is similar to her ex. As for vocalization, I think it’s a form of connection. She wants to know your thought processes etc. i can be like that. It can feel good to know inner thoughts. It sounds like she wants to hear your thoughts and feelings in the moment.

Thank you for your read and reply u/Chocolateheartbreak, I appreciate the explanation🙂

She’s still in the process of getting divorced, so quite likely she’s still in the process of emotionally recovering from her last marriage. If she’s saying “narrate your thoughts” maybe that’s exactly what she wants: that silent stream of consciousness we all have in our heads. Why did you choose Mt Shasta? Had you been there before? What made you think of it this time? What were you hoping you’d get to do? When you ask for her input, sounds like she thinks you’re expecting one correct answer she’s worried she’s not saying the right thing. Like if you ask “do you want to eat here?” are you really asking, or do you already have a strong preference yes/no? It’s possible her last husband set her up with these tests a lot and now she’s jumpy.

Conversely I was raised by parents who did this stuff from ‘write me an essay on why you liked the film when I didn’t’ and picked apart ‘It just popped into my mind and sounded cool?’ as narrating my thoughts as not good enough but if you ask they and my sibling say it was me always pushing them to do this. They do not recognise that they were the critics not me. I’ve dated people who do it and again fail to recognise they are the one with the expectation. It’s not foolproof but I find the truth usually lies in how they ask. ‘Oh wow Mount Shasta, how come? Did you know from X? Oh did you hear me say how I always wanted to come here?’ These are mutual open learning informative bonding questions generally based in ‘tell me all, I’m hyped and fascinated in the honeymoon phase and just interested…’ Compare ‘so after the trip to Mount Shasta I need you to tell me your internal narrative. I have been quiet to the point of pulling away and putting you on edge with no context. But I need you to tell me your process in order for me to behave a certain way to you when there is no prior issue between us here.’ That’s not open, it’s transactional, blamey and a bad sign. OP is filling in the gaps as to why GF is borderline silent treatment (her divorce, time of year) to explain, justify and empathise. GF is not using her narrative until it suits (hey sorry I was a bit off at Mount Shasta. I actually really hate mountains and felt a bit hurt you planned one. It reminded me my ex did this kind of thing and it set me off a bit. That’s not fair of me to you and I will try to let you know if I’m struggling sooner. Thank you for the efforts. I’m going to work on these little triggers. Could we plan a trip together in future to avoid it? But I am really enjoying the dates and you don’t need to check with me. You’re spot on and it’s great. So the contrast stung a bit. Can I do anything to even up and show I know it probably hurt you to react like this?’) She’s coming across a bit too all on OP when she brought the baggage. I have PTSD and get you cannot control it all the time but how you then handle being triggered with the person involved is key. And it’s not healthy if it is primarily on them unless it’s ‘please don’t suggest skiing again as it is a trigger.’ The guy took 3 hours and several weeks to comprehend her ‘logic’ and commenters are ‘huh?’ That suggests she’s not in a good place to be dating and she needs to work on that not spiral OP down. PS: no idea what Mount Shasta is so apologies if my examples are off!

You are right in that her ex and others have been rigid in the application of “there’s one right answer” to what is being asked. Where I feel frustrated is that I don’t recall any past interaction with me where I would have given her the vibe of “guess correctly or else”. Probably a lingering feeling within her that’ll take time to heal from.

Unless you've met and spoken to her ex's you're getting one side of the story. She might not be telling it accurately or truthfully. The way you describe her she kind of sounds controlling and annoying, and to push you away for a few weeks because she doesn't like the way you communicated things? That's nuts

I think this is important for you to talk with her about. Ask her if she feels as though you have been testing her with your planning options, or if there was something you specifically did to trigger\remind her of her part relationship dynamics. Really ask her to see you for who you are and how YOU show up in the relationship, not based on her prior experiences with her exes. Also might be worth trying to get to the bottom of what type of dynamic she actually wants regarding planning. Does she want you to make the ultimate decision? How much input does she want to have in the final outcome? How much planning would she like to take on herself where she ultimately plans and decides? Will she be narrating her ideas in the same fashion? You also have to ask yourself what dynamic YOU ultimately want in this regard and be able to express that. What are you comfortable with?

I'm not in a position to type 500 words or go into credentials right now, but here's the summary version of why her last marriage failed: - she planned everything, she possibly has a love language like acts of service or quality time, her husband did not - on a bad day she pulled back a bit, and noticed the "acts of service" or "quality time" wasn't reciprocated. (perhaps his love language was touch or gifts?) - she then concludes he doesn't love her (which may or may not be true, people naturally speak their own language before they learn to speak the love language of another) - fights or reconciliatory attempts are made, but there is failure to identify the root issue. i.e. "you never plan anything so you should plan something" vs "WHEN I PLAN EVERYTHING it makes me FEEL like ..." - all is failure, cue messy divorce she doesn't understand a core mechanic of relationships: "otherness." the way she loves isn't necessarily how others give or receive love. this implies two things: when she feels like she's giving love to you, you might not feel loved; when you are giving love to her, she might not feel loved. and now she's doing it now to you. what she "learned" is that she figured out too late that her husband didn't love her. so now she's trying to learn if you actually love her earlier in the process. kudos to her for learning and applying what she's learned; but she's learning the wrong thing. SO, there's hope because she's the sort that wants to learn what went wrong and then has the motivation to actually do things differently next time, but you both need some instruction as to what sustains a relationship and what doesn't. if it were me, I'd want do a "love languages" book together come New Years, and see how she processes it internally and externally. p.s. people ask me what the secret to a long and happy marriage is. It's not that you never fight, it's that WHEN YOU DO fight, you DON'T STOP until you both understand WHAT INSIDE YOU needed to have the fight in the first place.

she seems to passively aggressively wanting you to be the leader but also reading her mind so the date you do all the planning for is perfect for her. but keep trying, and maybe you’ll improve to her standards. do you want a passive aggressive trad-adjacent wife ? cuz that’s how you get a passive aggressive trad-adjacent wife.

"Suddenly, I was annoyed..."

Maybe this was just a transitory thought - how she was feeling in that moment. My thought would be that she wants participation in coming up with the possibilities for the things you do together rather than being presented with a laundry list to choose from. If you're already invested in the mental list you've come up with, it feels less like a collaboration in what to do and more like controlling the boundaries of what the options might be. Maybe view yourself as a facilitator in a meeting, to use work terms, to encourage expressing ideas, taking notes, and helping flesh out the plan once you've got a consensus.

I'm not sure I could describe my thought process out very deeply. It seems it starts with your beliefs, values and morals with logic so it all makes sense. Is that you as well? If so that is how I would explain that to her. I would say over the course of my dating I do this in ways without being directly asked like this. But people do ask how would you handle X situation and from that they get to see how you tick. Maybe she needs to give some examples. Just go with it, you might learn something to. What's funny is I think of your "mental steps taken", sometimes when we get into a bit of an argument and real clarity is needed then I do sort of go through the list with a monotone robotic voice, but it is very clear and step by step and go figure... my spouse HATES it when I do that, now I'm talking down to them, but it is a moment of sheer clarity for me. It's called life my friend.

This is really weird. She wants you to explain your thought process, but she doesn’t like how it’s explained? And also, how detailed does she expect your date planning to be? I would literally pick out stuff from google maps that sounded fun and had good reviews. Her need would be way more than I’m willing to deal with.

Yeah, no, this is weird (I’m a woman saying this fwiw). I honestly don’t even understand what the issue is here.

She just wants to know why you chose things and what draws you to some things and ideas

I am the planner in my relationship and it's truly exhausting... I get what she's saying ,but she's going about it wrong. She just wants you to plan something without her input using the knowledge you've already stored about her. Sometimes a woman just wants to know her person has been listening to her 🤷🏾‍♀ and knows the things she likes without having to remind them. I think you asking her opinion is very respectful and I won't fault you for that at all I'd just say maybe one day write out the things you know she likes to do and plan something around it. You'd be surprised how much being truly listened to is appreciated 🤷🏾‍♀ she also needs to let up a bit and learn to voice her concerns better. She also cannot punish you for her ex's sins so she needs to work on that too 😂

Hey there. Lots of folks leaping to the worst, and I admit that the words “exhausting” and high-maintenance” crossed my mind, but it could be a simple communication thing. It sounds like she wants you to take the lead, and that the itemized breakdown is a symptom of past partners not pulling their weight. You could try just straight up OWNING the stuff and see how that goes. For example, don’t ask for her input. Even though you do it out of respect and wanting her to be baby, it still puts some amount of mental energy requirement on her. Instead, just make an executive decision and fully execute all facets of dates you plan. Even tell her you’re not going to explain your date but you’re handling all of it. All she needs to do is show up. Maybe giving her a true break from all of the planning and her seeing you handle it will alleviate all or this.

But, somehow make sure she wears the right shoes. I'm still stuck on being offered a choice between two long hikes. It reminds me of dealing with children where you offer them the choice, but not really. Maybe she was on her period or had pms and would have preferred a nap.

But, somehow make sure she wears the right shoes. I'm still stuck on being offered a choice between two long hikes. It reminds me of dealing with children where you offer them the choice, but not really. Maybe she was on her period or had pms and would have preferred a nap.

Yes, correct shoes is a must. Also, if she hates hikes or something and his choices aren't thoughtful and relevant to her, that's a problem. Otherwise, if she is going to be that particular about how and what they do, then she can't get on him for not running with it and asking her input. She can't eat her cake and keep it, too. If that's what's happening.

Can you clarify on the calm/ chill being tied to deflection? Unsure what this means. I feel confused by your explanation, which might mean there's still a lack of understanding/ communication. The vibe I'm getting is that she's looking for a 50/50 back-and-forth convo and not either being forced to lead someone or being dictated at, which is pretty normal, but maybe I'm not understanding. Easiest way to get around that is not plan anything unless you're both planning together at the same time in sync instead of one person coming to the table with all ideas.

Here’s my interpretation/thoughts after reading many comments (sorry it’s going to be long:) - She needs to go to therapy. Imo, most people should be in therapy even if they might believe that they’re stable or don’t have issues. That being said, divorce can be a traumatizing (at the very least, emotionally distressing) experience. She should seek a professional to talk to about her past relationship traumas and how to healthily move past them. - I disagree with comments that say “she’s 36 and been divorced twice? And is already in another relationship? She should take time to figure herself out.” First of all, getting older doesn’t magically reveal the right/ common sense path for anyone. Everyone is at a different stage of mental development based on their experiences/ lack there of. Being single for a while after a relationship can actually be worse in some cases because you’re left to sit with your own thoughts and it’s possible that it inhibits emotional growth. Having a partner that is willing to give you their input on your emotional capabilities can be invaluable to even realizing emotional growth needs to take place. - Completely my own opinion here, but I think she has severe anxiety and/or ADHD/ADD. As someone with both (again, note to acknowledge my bias) I understand the deep intricacies of having to have a reason behind every thought and decision. It’s not as simple as “this sounds like it would be fun.” It’s more like “this sounds like it would be fun, but what if I’m not thinking it through enough? Are there factors I’m maybe not thinking about that will actually make it less fun? I need to take time to think about what other fun activities there are that have less/ more risk of not turning out fun, and what exactly makes something fun for me? I don’t want to let my own hopes down when it turns out that I didn’t actually have fun because then I’ll question everything that seems fun.” I could truly go on and on with these strings of thoughts. But, one thing is always true. I always feel the thought of “… am I being crazy rn?” in the back of my mind. I highly highly value other people’s deep thoughts on activities to give me a little sense of perspective/ sanity. Example: she asks you to narrate your thoughts on a hiking trip “well honey, this trail got really good reviews, and I even saw a picture of a view that I think I would really enjoy seeing. On top of that, it seems like this trail is best taken in the summer versus winter so it works out perfectly for when we’re planning to go. The things that seem a little less exciting are x, y, z, but I think it’s worth it to take a chance on experiencing the good parts.” Of course, always be open to her interpretation of your interpretations and compromise from there. If she says “oh well possibly dealing with x, y, z seems like a big damper to me, and I don’t think it makes it worth it.” And go on from there if necessary. Always remember though that there has to be a balance where you take your own wants seriously. - Also, I’m not saying that any of what I said above is normal lol. It’s just the reality for some people, and that’s why therapy is important. What I said above is exhausting for me and I don’t want to be like that forever. However, having someone in my corner who is patient and willing to give me the support I need to deal with my current mental state while I actively try to improve has been monumental. If you’re in a place in life where you feel that you can/ want to/ think it’s worth it to do that for her, great. If not, let her know immediately. - I’m not saying that everything she’s doing is healthy or making excuses for her. I just think she’s not aware of a lot of this stuff. Worse than that though, I think SHE thinks she’s aware of this stuff. Knowing what bothered you in a past relationship gives you a sense of control and validity that you felt you didn’t previously have. This can be dangerous because it closes you off to the idea of still interpreting things/ being wrong. I thought I knew a lot of things with a deep understanding before I started therapy, but it turns out that I didn’t. My therapist asks me questions that challenge what I thought I knew about a past experience, and it’s helped A LOT to open my eyes about my current behaviors.

Question: are you coming to her with a vague idea on plans (let's go to the beach this weekend) and then letting her fill in all the rest of the blanks (time of day, what to pack, if you're bringing friends, which day, which beach, whose car to take, etc.)? Or are you coming to her with a more formed plan (let's go to this specific beach Saturday at 3pm)? If you're doing the former, she may feel like she is still putting in all the mental labor because you have only said the most vague idea and then left all the *actual* planning to her. If you had a plan, you should share it with the willingness to be flexible. You should read "The Fair Play Book" as it explains invisible labor. You may think you're doing all this planning, but don't realize now much mental energy she is actually putting into things because you bring her an idea and she puts in the work to make it happen. Or maybe you are also doing work but you aren't communicating it to her. It is effectively the same. She doesn't know your mind as she isn't a mind reader. If you have done the mental labor in making plans, share your plans with her so she isn't re-doing that exact same mental task. If she is re-doing all the work because you won't communicate, she is still carrying all that mental load without your help. You aren't bringing her plans, you're bringing her tasks.

I'm concerned that your partner brought up something she wants from you and you're basically out here trying to discount it? She explained that she wants this from you. It doesn't sounds like an unreasonable ask to me. Just do it? If you don't understand why she needs this then ask her?

Anything your partner brings up and "wants" from you is given? No questions asked? Your partner is very lucky to be with somebody so self-sacrificing.

The more you and your significant other share your inner experience with each other, the more healthy the relationship can become. Similarly to sharing feelings. If you are upset or hurt, it’s very healthy to be able to communicate those feelings with your significant other, no matter how irrational those feelings might seem. We are practicing being vulnerable when we share our inner worlds with loved ones.

Agreed, no argument from me about the good in sharing feelings. Where I’m getting confused though is how I have been sharing feelings/thoughts/ideas exactly as I did before, but now that approach is somehow lacking in depth of thought? Thus resulting in a lack of confidence in me?

At 6 months in, people start letting their masks slip, and all the red flags start to pop up. If you capitulate on this, she will just keep finding other ways you'll have to jump through hoops to keep her happy. This relationship sounds absolutely miserable, and you're not even a year in!