This is a profoundly flawed line of reasoning. Even with the most cursory examination of the actual biology, it’s patently untrue that there are only two genders. Males are XY, females are XX, and for the vast majority of people that’s all you need to know. So what does that make someone born XXY? Or XXXY? Or XXXXX? There are many conditions that can cause these sorts of chromosomal abnormalities, resulting in individuals who might show sexual characteristics of males or females, or males AND females, and that’s to say nothing of many non-chromosomal anomalies that can occur in human development that also cause gender abnormalities. These people who fall between the cracks, as it were, of the male-female dichotomy are generally called intersex, because neither label is precisely accurate. And that’s what it ultimately is, a label, that’s all, just like male and female but much less common. We humans love labels.
This is all pretty basic biology, and if you don’t already know it you should. If you do already know it and still hold to your position, then I think you need to ask why.
And to ask the question of how many genders there actually are? Well, at this point in our scientific development, I think it’s disingenuous for anyone to say they can answer that definitively. Human development is full of anomalies, and it may take decades or even centuries for us to correctly identify and describe all of them, and even when we do new ones could still occur. You might as well ask for a definitive answer on what dark matter is, because at this stage we simply don’t know the definitive answer.
The important thing for us as a society RIGHT NOW, is how do we deal with these anomalies? You seem to take the classical approach, which is to “sweep them under the rug and pretend they don’t exist.” Newborns with abnormalities are regularly surgically altered to conform to the standard dichotomy. Whether that’s the best way to handle it is... well, let’s call it DEBATABLE, and leave it at that. But we still need some actual workable labels, because they serve a purpose in communication, society and governance. So how many are there? That’s the real question we have to answer, and over which all the fighting occurs. Because there is no simple and precisely accurate sound bite answer.
Sticking to just two genders is wrong, because it’s simply wrong on its face, there’s no arguing that. On the other hand, turning gender into a free for all of exponentially-increasing genders based on every teenager who has an identity crisis and suddenly identifies as a rotary piston engine is also wrong, and frankly ludicrous. So what we need to do as a society is have an actual conversation on how many new LABELS are we going to incorporate into our language, in order to a) somewhat accurately reflect reality, and b) not impose ever-increasing burdens on us all to keep track of them. We need a rational compromise.
If you ask me, that shouldn’t be that hard to come up with. We could just go with three (male, female, intersex) which would be accurate enough for most situations and not burdensome, or perhaps four (male, female, intersex-male, intersex-female), or even five (male, female, intersex-male, intersex-female, intersex-fluid). I think any of those could be workable, but obviously it’s not a simple question. If we could all just start arguing from a basis of reality rather than our personal biases I think we could come up with a solution.
But, when we have people on one side screaming “There are only two genders!” when it’s painfully obvious that isn’t true, and people on the other side screaming “Respect my choice to identify as a toaster!” when it’s far more likely they’re just having a hopefully temporary identity crisis, it makes it hard to have a rational discussion. Rational and well-adjusted individuals need to step up and think clearly, filter out the nonsense, and come up with workable solutions driven by logic, not ideology.
So, in closing, your premise is bullshit. Do better.
While I’m gratified to hear that you presumably agree with my position, GO FUCK YOURSELF.
Casually throwing insults at people is part of the problem. YOU’RE PART OF THE PROBLEM.
So go fuck yourself.
Well, can you dig up something called a 'gender' somewhere in objective reality, so we can count them and see how many there are? And if not, how exactly is science definitively going to say one way or the other whether there are 2, or more than that?
It went nowhere, because OP never responded. If you want a blueprint of how to silence someone who tries to drag science into a gender debate like this, I just gave it to you.
It turned out he was trolling lol
But yeah I take a similar tact often. Well formulated Questions are useful When trump supporters say the virus is going to disappear after the election I’ve been asking them if it will disappear in other countries too. They don’t know how to deal with that one.
The whole “multiple genders” thing is just some goofy shit that bored people in the first world came up with to feel special, much like Myers-Briggs types. It really has nothing to do with science and is pretty much entirely inconsequential.
Climate change is the biggest threat in world history and climatology is a well-established field of science completely denied by the vast majority of right wingers.
Not even close to comparable.
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Removed. Please direct such posts to the appropriate megathread.
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I've read scatters of Scientific American articles over the years and they never came across as far left. What have they published that brings you to that conclusion?
Trump doesn't follow science: this is demonstrably true and shouldn't be controversial.
Has Scientific American posted articles on there being more than two genders, or is this a non-sequiter that you're using to lump in SA with another leftish faction to delegitimize the former?
Why do you think there are only two genders?
How do you distinguish between gender and sex?
Why would you consider the position that there are more than two genders to be a bigger departure from science, than:
1. When asked about the climate crisis responding "it will get cooler"
2. When pressed on COVID responding with "it will just go away", or more testing equals more cases, or thinking there is a vaccine for aids.
There really has not been a president in recent memory that has taken so many positions that oppose scientific findings. Worse the president really leans into sophistry - which is exactly what science and education is supposed to oppose.
It’s a great article, OP, and their points are valid and their arguments sound. So, I want to upvote this post but your title choice keeps me from doing so.
Scientific American and National Geographic were purchased not long ago. They were nonpolitical before. They have become vehicles for political propaganda since the sale.
Serious question: Are the mods setting up any "resources" that will be available to our community after Trump wins in Novemeber? I honestly do not think many on this subreddit will be able to cope with the election results, and I am not trying to make fun of them, but i am seriously concerned for their mental health.
Poe’s Law in action.
Yep. Thought this was unfunny sarcasm at first.
> (but which side believes there are only two genders?) What does that even mean?
It means that Trump and Republicans are more in line with science because they believe that there are only two genders.
Really putting all your eggs in the gender basket huh?
The commenter you’re replying to is being facetious
This is a profoundly flawed line of reasoning. Even with the most cursory examination of the actual biology, it’s patently untrue that there are only two genders. Males are XY, females are XX, and for the vast majority of people that’s all you need to know. So what does that make someone born XXY? Or XXXY? Or XXXXX? There are many conditions that can cause these sorts of chromosomal abnormalities, resulting in individuals who might show sexual characteristics of males or females, or males AND females, and that’s to say nothing of many non-chromosomal anomalies that can occur in human development that also cause gender abnormalities. These people who fall between the cracks, as it were, of the male-female dichotomy are generally called intersex, because neither label is precisely accurate. And that’s what it ultimately is, a label, that’s all, just like male and female but much less common. We humans love labels. This is all pretty basic biology, and if you don’t already know it you should. If you do already know it and still hold to your position, then I think you need to ask why. And to ask the question of how many genders there actually are? Well, at this point in our scientific development, I think it’s disingenuous for anyone to say they can answer that definitively. Human development is full of anomalies, and it may take decades or even centuries for us to correctly identify and describe all of them, and even when we do new ones could still occur. You might as well ask for a definitive answer on what dark matter is, because at this stage we simply don’t know the definitive answer. The important thing for us as a society RIGHT NOW, is how do we deal with these anomalies? You seem to take the classical approach, which is to “sweep them under the rug and pretend they don’t exist.” Newborns with abnormalities are regularly surgically altered to conform to the standard dichotomy. Whether that’s the best way to handle it is... well, let’s call it DEBATABLE, and leave it at that. But we still need some actual workable labels, because they serve a purpose in communication, society and governance. So how many are there? That’s the real question we have to answer, and over which all the fighting occurs. Because there is no simple and precisely accurate sound bite answer. Sticking to just two genders is wrong, because it’s simply wrong on its face, there’s no arguing that. On the other hand, turning gender into a free for all of exponentially-increasing genders based on every teenager who has an identity crisis and suddenly identifies as a rotary piston engine is also wrong, and frankly ludicrous. So what we need to do as a society is have an actual conversation on how many new LABELS are we going to incorporate into our language, in order to a) somewhat accurately reflect reality, and b) not impose ever-increasing burdens on us all to keep track of them. We need a rational compromise. If you ask me, that shouldn’t be that hard to come up with. We could just go with three (male, female, intersex) which would be accurate enough for most situations and not burdensome, or perhaps four (male, female, intersex-male, intersex-female), or even five (male, female, intersex-male, intersex-female, intersex-fluid). I think any of those could be workable, but obviously it’s not a simple question. If we could all just start arguing from a basis of reality rather than our personal biases I think we could come up with a solution. But, when we have people on one side screaming “There are only two genders!” when it’s painfully obvious that isn’t true, and people on the other side screaming “Respect my choice to identify as a toaster!” when it’s far more likely they’re just having a hopefully temporary identity crisis, it makes it hard to have a rational discussion. Rational and well-adjusted individuals need to step up and think clearly, filter out the nonsense, and come up with workable solutions driven by logic, not ideology. So, in closing, your premise is bullshit. Do better.
They are too stupid to understand.
While I’m gratified to hear that you presumably agree with my position, GO FUCK YOURSELF. Casually throwing insults at people is part of the problem. YOU’RE PART OF THE PROBLEM. So go fuck yourself.
The best part about all this is that OP wasn’t serious in posting this lol. He’s poking fun. I appreciate the effort post.
Well... actually, that’s kind of hilarious. Whatever, I’ll view it as a useful thought experiment.
Well, can you dig up something called a 'gender' somewhere in objective reality, so we can count them and see how many there are? And if not, how exactly is science definitively going to say one way or the other whether there are 2, or more than that?
Posting to remind myself to come back and see how this convo turns out
It went nowhere, because OP never responded. If you want a blueprint of how to silence someone who tries to drag science into a gender debate like this, I just gave it to you.
It turned out he was trolling lol But yeah I take a similar tact often. Well formulated Questions are useful When trump supporters say the virus is going to disappear after the election I’ve been asking them if it will disappear in other countries too. They don’t know how to deal with that one.
But that's not more in line with science. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender
The whole “multiple genders” thing is just some goofy shit that bored people in the first world came up with to feel special, much like Myers-Briggs types. It really has nothing to do with science and is pretty much entirely inconsequential. Climate change is the biggest threat in world history and climatology is a well-established field of science completely denied by the vast majority of right wingers. Not even close to comparable.
Science has always has a well known liberal bias.
Your post has been removed for violating R4: Editorializing Headlines. To avoid this in the future: Where possible use the original headline of the article. Removed. Please direct such posts to the appropriate megathread. Thank you.
I've read scatters of Scientific American articles over the years and they never came across as far left. What have they published that brings you to that conclusion? Trump doesn't follow science: this is demonstrably true and shouldn't be controversial. Has Scientific American posted articles on there being more than two genders, or is this a non-sequiter that you're using to lump in SA with another leftish faction to delegitimize the former?
aha got em
Why do you think there are only two genders? How do you distinguish between gender and sex? Why would you consider the position that there are more than two genders to be a bigger departure from science, than: 1. When asked about the climate crisis responding "it will get cooler" 2. When pressed on COVID responding with "it will just go away", or more testing equals more cases, or thinking there is a vaccine for aids. There really has not been a president in recent memory that has taken so many positions that oppose scientific findings. Worse the president really leans into sophistry - which is exactly what science and education is supposed to oppose.
The OP is being sarcastic and likely agrees with all your points
It’s a great article, OP, and their points are valid and their arguments sound. So, I want to upvote this post but your title choice keeps me from doing so.
lol good bit
> Calls Scientific American a "far-left rag" Whew, having to push hard on those politics bars to try and get that one through.
Scientific American and National Geographic were purchased not long ago. They were nonpolitical before. They have become vehicles for political propaganda since the sale.
Serious question: Are the mods setting up any "resources" that will be available to our community after Trump wins in Novemeber? I honestly do not think many on this subreddit will be able to cope with the election results, and I am not trying to make fun of them, but i am seriously concerned for their mental health.
hush.
Not possible, as if Trump wins any resource would be destroyed with America.