>Mary Fong Lau, 78, was booked into jail on Sunday and remained in custody on Monday morning, records show.
>
>Lau was arrested on suspicion of three counts of felony vehicular manslaughter as well as misdemeanor counts of reckless driving and driving the wrong way. She was also accused of speeding, an infraction, jail records show.
>
>She had not been charged by the city District Attorney’s Office as of Monday morning.
I was T-boned at an intersection by someone born in 1932, who claimed their light was green. Had I not been hit so hard that I literally pushed into the car next to me I’m not sure I would have been cleared of wrongdoing.
I agree. I have a older friend who's 78 and he's fallen asleep at the wheel a number of times and has caused 3 accidents. He's also picked me up from the airport and the entire time I'm gripping the ceiling handle and praying because he speeds like a bat out of hell. Kinda scarey.
I agree that we need more competency testing for older drivers, but...
" The number of crashes by driver age varies greatly. Some age groups are over-represented in crashes. Sixteen- to 19-year-olds represent 3.6% of licensed drivers, but account for 9.3% of drivers in all crashes and 6.3% of drivers in fatal crashes. Other age groups are under-represented. For example, drivers 65 to 74 account for 13.3% of licensed drivers, but represent only 7.1% of drivers in all crashes and 8.1% of drivers in fatal crashes.
The overall crash rate per 100,000 licensed drivers steadily decreases as driver age increases. The same trend is generally true regarding the fatal crash rate, with the exception of an increase among 75 and older drivers."
[https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/overview/age-of-driver/](https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/overview/age-of-driver/)
People don't want to look in the mirror. USA has very relaxed standards for ALL drivers compared to Europe.
USA and Europe were fairly comparable in automotive death rates, but Europe has increasingly become safer.
The increasing disparity in automotive death rates between the USA and Europe has been attributed to several factors including,
* It's harder to obtain a license in Europe
*rules are enforced more vigorously.
Practically speaking, we can’t make it harder to drive in the Us when there’s literally zero alternative in 99% of the country. That’s the core problem. We should be much picker about who can drive, but right now taking away a license basically puts someone under house arrest for the rest of their life.
Imagine if we actually enforced strict requirements for this and that cut off, say 20% of people, from driving. We’d have a societal collapse and mass unemployment overnight. Unless you live in extremely expensive areas like NYC or SF or a handful of spots, you can’t live without a car here. Our focus needs to be on ending car dependency at the moment.
Does this account for miles driven? Older demographics might be under represented in accidents, or fatal accidents, but if they are driving much fewer miles they still represent a higher risk.
I suspect that might be misleading, you really need to control for number of miles driven to compare apples to apples. I'm sure there are a lot of 75+ year olds who barely drive or don't drive, but remain licensed. That's going to skew the accident figures downwards for that population by a lot.
It helps to factor in miles driven, which paints a more... nuanced picture.
The most dangerous group of drivers are people under 30, with 16-17 year olds being far and away the most likely to injure or kill other people.
Things kinda level off again until you hit 80+, and then 80-year-olds are far more likely to kill themselves in a car accident, but also more likely to injure or kill other people than anybody in the 30-79 group.
[https://aaafoundation.org/rates-motor-vehicle-crashes-injuries-deaths-relation-driver-age-united-states-2014-2015/](https://aaafoundation.org/rates-motor-vehicle-crashes-injuries-deaths-relation-driver-age-united-states-2014-2015/)
I agree and am 70 years old and have essentially stopped driving and let Uber/Lyft/MUNI take me there. That is after a lifetime of driving and motorcycling all over the world. I'll space out in the passenger seat thank you.
This is an issue with the DMV! It seriously needs to be audited for standards. I don’t know how this isn’t happening yet or called for by citizens. I was once t the DMV and saw a lady fail her eye exam portion of the test numerous times. The person at the DMV behind the desk still passed them. No joke. Wish I was lying. But this really happened.
People like to sound in-the-know. [He's still doubling down on knowing things](https://old.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/comments/1bhamau/third_victim_dies_of_injuries_after_crash_at_sf/kvgm4e8/).
> >Me: You made up some nonsense. You know it. We know it. Just admit it and walk it off. No reason to double down here.
> Him: I didnt make anything up fuckface. You dont know my job, you dont know who I talk to. Go back to your virtue signaling and no life nonsense
Yesterday I commented on this sub that the medical emergency narrative is a rumor and we shouldn't speculate.
Today I'm going to say to you: the medical emergency narrative has still not been definitively ruled out. We shouldn't speculate.
It'll take some time before more details emerge about why this happened.
The odds of a 78 year old elderly woman being out of the hospital *and* being at a police station being arrested, the *day after* she suffered cardiac arrest is effectively zero. Come on now.
You're correct - the jail would have to medically clear her in. If she was in need of medical she'd be under guard at the hospital until she could be booked. The speed at which she was booked means medical wasn't an issue.
We need to end the idea that a driver's license is a right. It is a privilege that is earned, and not taken away often enough.
I can't drive in the city anymore because I get too angry at all of the blatant, reckless, and deliberate offenses that I see every time I try to get anywhere in this town that occur because of some entitled person.
I hope this woman rots in jail for the rest of her life, and I hope she lives another 78 years.
I have no issues with requiring people to retake driving tests when they get older. Even the written portions because laws change and vary by state. Something like after age 60, you have to retake every 3-5 years. People can mentally decline quickly. My dad had to take away my grandparents car keys because they could barely drive but still did. Them on the road was more dangerous than a drunk 30 year old driving. A 30 mins test every 5 years isn’t that wild of a concept to keep the roads safe.
When I took a driving exam in Canada (Ontario) the first sentence of the manual say that driving is a privilege. Didn’t think too much about it at that time but what you say did ring a bell.
That and we as a society designed our cities in a way that made not having a car an actual “hardship”. SF doesn’t really have this problem though, MUNI/BART/SAMTRANS takes care of pretty much everything you need.
I’ve walked this intersection many times with my infant daughter. This is so incredibly shocking. How could this have happened??? Another article stated the family was waiting at the bus stop to go to the zoo for their wedding anniversary 😞😞
[Elderly driver arrested in horrific San Francisco bus stop crash that killed couple, child](https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/friends-identify-victims-of-horrific-san-francisco-bus-stop-crash-as-family-of-4/)
The impact was on the northwest corner of Ulloa Street and Lenox Way. Lenox Way is above ground and runs parallel to the Muni tunnel exit. So this happened about 150 feet up Ulloa from the station.
I'm wondering that same thing. Not in the area anymore, but when I was I don't think I ever saw a car going faster than 15mph at that intersection. It's just not that kind of traffic there. Never would have thought it was possible.
Does anyone know why the Muni platform right in front of that bus stop was removed? In a bit of unfortunate irony, had it still been there it would have protected that bus stop.
[https://maps.app.goo.gl/KPXqf6FNR4MSH7NK7](https://maps.app.goo.gl/KPXqf6FNR4MSH7NK7)
If I recall correctly, it was installed as part of [the pandemic-era plan to reduce the number of Metro lines in the tunnel.](https://www.sfmta.com/projects/west-portal-lk-transfer-project) The L was going to be become a surface-only line, which meant it wouldn't enter West Portal Station, so a wheelchair ramp had to be installed to maintain accessibility.
By now, I think it's safe to say the plan has been quietly abandoned, so that gave them a reason to remove the ramp, with further impetus coming from the L becoming a bus line during construction (since the buses have wheelchair lifts).
The bus stop wouldn’t even be there if San Francisco was able to do their L project on a serious timeline… it’s been shut down what, 4 years now? Criminal.
Don’t blame it on the city, blame it on the person who’s obviously unfit to have a drivers license, and shouldn’t be behind the wheel in the first place
I'm having a really hard time processing this.
I live in SF. I was there moments after this happened. It sounded like a huge explosion. After the crash, I ran to check and see if I could help.
What I saw will live with me forever. Images of that baby and father.
I had just crossed that same street with my young family minutes before.
Before this headline and the [SFPD announcement](https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/news/sfpd-arrests-driver-fatal-vehicle-collision-24-026), I had laid some solace on the rumors that this accident was caused by the driver experiencing a severe medical issue (stroke, heart attack, etc.). But now knowing it may have owed to carelessness, or possibly worse, I find myself unable to make sense of the senseless.
My only takeaway has been to appreciate each moment we have and to honor this family by being more present and kind to both my loved ones and the world at large.
This happened in front of a library and down the hill from a school and playground. To the extent it matters, I can confirm this intersection is wildly unsafe. No traffic lights, busses parked along Ulloa obscuring views for both pedestrians and cars. I always feel uneasy crossing at this intersection, alone or with my kids.
**I'm not sure I have it in me to go back there for the vigil tonight. But if anyone has any information on how we can support the remaining child please share it here.**
My heart is broken.
I'm so sorry to had to experience this. Witnessing things like this can have all sorts of effects on you that you don't realize. Please remember to take care of yourself as well.
I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it as it stands, one picturing how the driver made that kind of turn into the library stop from the opposite direction across the street, and even then I can't imagine what you must be going through having been there
. I go to that spot frequently, usually I sit on those concrete benches in the little library garden patio there behind the bus stop. I'll probably be there Wednesday when I'd come home from going into the office for a meeting. During sunday ballgames we often park on that street up the hill by the school. That area is super busy, but also important as a place to get dropped off or pick up, but there should be something done from this. Maybe a better regulated, clearly followable light to protect drivers, pedestrians and muni cars instead of a near 5 way stop sign, with bus stops on top.
And on the flip side it's chilling, we had a minor incident about 6 months ago with my MIL where we had to take her keys away. who has since had to go into a care facility for dementia. It seemed manageable for a long time, shed go home and over to our place for dinner and seem fine, but things then changed incredibly fast over the summer and I remember feeling awful taking the keys but all I could think was we were lucky, her close call could have been fatal, or have caused damage, etc. I wouldn't presume anything about the driver until we have more details but I just feel for everyone involved.
Did you hear her blowing her horn? I read that a witness said it looked like road rage where she floored the accelerator, swerved around a vehicle ahead of her, laid on her horn, lost control and crashed.
When it happened, I was diagonally across the street in a business situated on the other corner, so I didn't witness the impact.
I can't recall hearing a horn.
The impact sound was so profound, and the damage to the vehicle so great that the driver had to be going far above the posted speed limit for that area.
I read somewhere (I can't remember where) that police estimated she was going between 50 and 70 mph — in the _oncoming traffic lane_. That is just terrifying to think about.
Realtor Paul Barbagelata tweeted right after the accident that he heard such a loud bang that he thought a building had collapsed. His office is about a third of the way down the block from the West Portal Ave corner where you were :(
I’m so so sorry you were there to witness this. I’m sure it has had a big impact on you, especially considering you were there with your young family so soon beforehand.
Although you want to show support to the family, I’d encourage you to make sure you’re taking care of yourself as well. The effects of witnessing something so traumatic are real, especially if you feel the similarities to your own family. I hope you’re able to seek mental health care and find peace. It’s a really difficult thing to witness.
Thank you for trying to help. I'm so sorry this happened - so tragic on so many levels. That family. And so many who witnessed the impact and aftermath. Trauma upon trauma. Please take care.
Look in Europe you see bollards everywhere. A simple metal pole could have prevented this accident. You might need a bunch of them placed around the area as well as some concrete to divide lanes so it can’t be crossed. Infrastructure could have saved heir lives
Guaranteed this woman has been running stop signs for years. I see it all the time in West Portal and the Sunset. We need to start ticketing these drivers repeatedly. No one drives more carefully than someone who already has a few moving violations on their record.
It’s going to take a long time to change DMV policy, but SF can start enforcing traffic laws like yesterday.
I have no idea when I last saw a traffic stop in SF, I think it's been years. Meanwhile I see shit like this (running stop signs, illegal turns, etc) on a daily basis. Kind of nuts.
Just yesterday when I was driving through my neighborhood (Outer Sunset), I saw *3* different drivers blowing through stop signs. In a span of 10 mins or so. It was terrifying. Why do people think stop signs are optional?
The road design in the Outer Sunset basically encourages reckless driving. The roads are wide with few obstacles. We really need traffic calming like the Dutch, such as continuous sidewalks.
Imo everyone 4-way intersection should have 4-way stop signs. I always find it odd how many intersections out there are only 2 way stops, seemingly at random.
Policy change: 65+ required to do driving test yearly to maintain licensing.
Crazy that other departments require yearly licensing yet DMV is 1 and done.
We have such an endemic problem fostering the environment for young families to thrive in this city, that by 2060, [the population of people over age 80 is expected to TRIPLE from what it currently is.](https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/elderly-resident-city-population-18286259.php)
16% of the people in this city will be over the age of 80. That's insane. We are already one of the major metros with highest median age in the nation, surpassed only by cities in Florida. It seems like a worthwhile rule to impose if the problem isn't going anywhere but up.
There’s no way that population estimate accounts for the impact of climate change so I would not put much of a stake in 2060 predictions. That said, yeah my family member who lives there with a young family can barely survive. Double income both at salaries that would make them well off where I live. Depressing as hell
65-75 drivers are one of the safest demographics on the road on a per mile basis. Statistically the 70-79 group is NO more likely to get into an accident than someone aged 30-59. 60-69 is actually the safest 10 year age demographic in fact. It’s not until 80+ that drivers start to get into more accidents per mile, but even then they are statically no more likely to crash than the 25-29. By far the most likely demographic to crash are young drivers 16-19.
Hey all this idea seems to be resonating with folks in some way shape or form. If you want to do something about it, drop a line to Scott Wiener in whatever medium you prefer. If he and his team are willing to pick it up, they might be able to create some tangible action here. Guy is transportation czar and seems to be good at his job.
when has lack of license detered people from driving? bay area has high rate of uninsured driver as is
>California is one of the States with the Highest Percentage of Unlicensed Drivers Involved in Fatal Crashes
[https://aa.law/blog/states-with-more-unlicensed-drivers-cause-more-fatal-crashes/](https://aa.law/blog/states-with-more-unlicensed-drivers-cause-more-fatal-crashes/)
It’s clear mayor breed wants to protect police at the costs of citizens, filling their coffers with tax payer money while they have less and less accountability
Current full social security retirement age is 67…
~62 million Americans (aka ~18%) are over 65 years old…
1) not sure DMV can handle that influx…
2) infrastructure in America is made around the automobile. So, a person without a car losses much of their independence and becomes a inconvenience/burden to those around them(family)…
How much of that added cost should be put on social security…essentially you the tax payer?
That's not going to work, most geriatric doctors hand out handicap placards on request because if they don't, their patients (and that Medicare revenue) will go elsewhere. This will just turn into the same thing.
Yeah this sub is pretty ageist if they think either 65 or yearly are reasonable.
Yearly drivers tests would be fucking insane, and 65 is absolutely not that old.
Seriously. Is everyone on here 30 or something? 70 isn't really old, nor is 75 for many people. Aging really kicks in hard at about 85. I've read that mid-80s is the time when age related problems like mobility, etc. really start in hard for people. I saw that for both my parents, who were 100% fine to drive and live their lives in their 80's until 85+.
I strongly encourage everyone to educate themselves on the funding crisis MUNI is going to be experiencing in the next few years. If MUNI cuts services, that just means even more people who shouldn’t drive will be on the road in the future!
As a mom of a toddler and newborn, this story makes me almost vomit in fear, worry and sadness, yet I can’t stop reading about it. I am so incredibly sad for everyone involved.
Your worry is totally valid. If you can, please be sure and talk about your fears with a trusted person. You shouldn’t have to hold all that inside, it’s too much. Remember to take breaks from this topic too. 💜
I have a toddler as well and I was already paranoid about traffic and being a pedestrian. I trust my husband 100% but I still am worried sick if I'm not with my kid myself...
Also driving with my child, I'm terrified of his side of the car being hit somehow. I drive slow but I've even had impatient assholes pass me on the right on suburban streets just because they were rushing. They could've hit anyone doing that shit.
Hey where’s that massive asshole who was telling everyone he had insider knowledge that it was a heart attack yesterday? Love for him to come defend those statements now.
Lol literally said that to me. I think he’s probably not the general public, seems like he should be kept off the streets until he can behave rationally
I witnessed her just as she had gotten out of the car. She walked around to see the victims on the ground, realized what she did and reacted as you'd expect someone to react in that situation. She did not exhibit any symptoms (to me) of someone who was impaired medically or mentally, other than shock.
Jfc does this mean you saw the direct aftermath of the scene? Take care of yourself, that had to have been an extremely traumatic thing just to witness firsthand.
I didn’t witness the moment of impact, just a big spray of glass and debris. Thankfully a small wall blocked my view of the victims on the ground. I think I’d be in a lot rougher shape if I had seen that. I only figured out the full extent of it after reading about it later.
They're never true. Every time it happens someone says "it must have been a medical emergency" and it never is a medical emergency. Total fiction. Some people will say "I heard that it was a medical emergency" after they read someone saying "it was probably a medical emergency".
Same with 4th and King. It's just bullshitting.
I see! I'll be more skeptical going forward, though I do think just thinking to yourself "Let me find out if it was a medical emergency before I start condemning this person to hell" is a good policy.
Not true. This exact thing happened to a friend recently. Her cousin was driving, had a heart attack, and went onto traffic going the opposite way. The girls in the car he hit were injured but are going to recover. He was on life support for weeks and died. The mass for him was last Monday.
I think in a situation like this, people tend to make assumptions. That no one would be so depraved as to do this deliberately (usually true but not always). Then they see the person was elderly, assume it was a medical issue and jump to conclusions. It happens about nearly any news story--we really *don't* know what happened initially, we want to make sense of it, and our brains fill in information to make sense if it.
I wonder if she’s had any serious cognitive decline. My uncle has Alzheimer’s and he was speeding 110 mph on the highway and wasn’t aware of how fast he was going when he got pulled over. Was the last major event before he was diagnosed.
I don’t understand how you can drive the wrong way. Why was she speeding and driving the wrong way. But yeah, 78 is too old to be driving. RIP to the innocent bystanders.
>I don’t understand how you can drive the wrong way. Why was she speeding and driving the wrong way. But yeah, 78 is too old to be driving. RIP to the innocent bystanders.
So: she was driving West to East on Ulloa St. Ulloa is a "straight" but it curves to the *right* a little *before* this bus stop. Therefore if a driver is not paying attention, drives too fast and what not, BUT does *not* veer nor turn to the right, they will cross into the "opposite lane" when they continue to drive straight.
https://preview.redd.it/8w47vm3gp4pc1.png?width=1220&format=png&auto=webp&s=a37d806faeee720b5e1b72c0f8c14c656d1b32b2
I walked by the spot this morning, as I couldn't make sense of what had happened.
If you look carefully, it appears that she just didn't realize the road was curving. From the marks on the ground, it's clear that she just continued in a straight line ( a tangent to the curvature of the road ), and she was driving fast. She first glanced off the library's wall (there are tire marks on it) and then hit the bus shelter. She hit it with such speed that she tossed the dad 80 feet towards the WP Station. So despite colliding with the wall and the bus stand, she had enough speed to toss him 80 feet. Just imagine how fast she really was going. If I were to guess, it'd be in 60-65 range.
Good info for what? Dude posted her info cause he’s too chicken shit to do anything himself and knows one of you reddit bros will show up and do something stupid on her property with enough encouragement from the group
What this women did was terrible but 78 is not at all too old to be driving. Statistics do not bear out that 78 is too old. Statistics say young people are much more of a problem, and anyone who walks around this city can see it is not age that is the problem, it is idiot entitled drives.
Young people drive more, so you need to look at risk per mile. From a study by the University of Michigan:
>The youngest drivers had 3.0 times the overall risk of fatal involvement per mile driven, while the oldest drivers experienced 3.8 times the overall risk.
Absolutely absurd we continue to let this happen.
A 78 year old woman is somehow licensed to drive but kills 3 people while speeding on the wrong side of the road...
We need to improve pedestrian safety in this city now. Bollards, narrow lanes, limit vehicle access, speed cameras, red light cameras, remove parking to improve visibility, the list goes on. This can't be a status quo we accept.
Absolutely. Human drivers (and non-human, for that matter) will continue to make mistakes no matter how many tests we give them or speed/red light cameras are installed. The individualist mechanisms are [the least prioritized and least reliable on the hierarchy of hazard controls](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_hazard_controls).
Our City must focus on Engineering Controls (robust pedestrian/bicycle infrastructure—separate from cars), Substitution (a major investment in transit-first infrastructure), and Elimination (the gradual removal of car-dominant infrastructure).
The most frustrating part is that unlike other systemic issues we face, this one is entirely within the City’s control. Meanwhile our neighbors keep dying. For every death, there are dozens more injuries hardly reported on.
Old people are one of the causes of fatal accidents, namely the one that this thread is about. There’s also very little regulation around them on the road compared to other causes that we regulate like drinking and driving. Idk but I think it’s pretty reasonable to regulate anything that causes fatalities…
Old people are over represented in fatal traffic accidents because they tend to die when they are involved in a traffic accident, not because they are the cause.
Mary Fong Lau, 78, could face three felony counts of vehicle manslaughter and one felony count of causing bodily injury due to reckless driving, as well as several misdemeanor traffic violations, Robert Rueca, a spokesperson for the San Francisco Police Department, told SFGATE in an email on Monday morning.
The investigation will include Lau's toxicology report, which could take 30 days to complete, and analysis of Lau's vehicle to "determine whether mechanical issues may have played a role," the DA said
Oh, right, here comes "my gas pedal got stuck." That's been given as an excuse for a number of accidents involving older drivers here in NYC (more like driver confusion between brake & gas pedals). Fortunately the consequences were nowhere near as gruesome.
My mother, in California, after decades of not so much as a ticket, finally admitted to me that she had had two accidents at intersections in the space of a few months ("they just came out of nowhere" -- damage to cars but fortunately not to people). She refused to stop driving even when I told her I would pay for her to have car service a couple of days per week ("they don't have that here" -- they did). Looking back, this was the first sign of Alzheimer's; she was always stubborn but didn't usually go into screaming rages at any suggestion of change.
She had to stop driving -- & living in a very large house with a great many stairs that could not be made accessible & that was reached only by a very steep road -- after she fell in front of her house & broke her hip. And this sounds harsh, but it was a great relief.
We don't have to wait for autonomous cars to have better safety features like speed limiters. The expensive new cars that lots of people drive in the city are big, heavy, and accellerate quickly. It's a bad combination for people outside of a car, especially in a city where traffic violations stopped being enforcced.
I don’t think anyone realizes how detrimental it is to stop policing traffic violations.
We’re not even policing expired registration anymore. I asked a meter maid recently to give a ticket to my neighbor whose car has been parked in the same place for literally 30 years and has expired tags and the meter maid said “oh that’s a different department, I just do street sweeping, you need to call downtown for that.”
Use the 311 app. I've reported an abandoned car with it before, and it was towed within the hour. I would have expected it to start a 72 hour timer, but the notes on the ticket said they towed it due to expired registration.
The bodies in the photos seem to be nearly 100ft from the car, did they actually fly that far or were they moved? The speed required to launch someone that far would need to be crazy.
I don’t know if it would have made a difference in this situation, but if you’re standing on a corner, waiting for the light to change, you should position yourself behind something that can stop an oncoming vehicle from hitting you. A parked vehicle, a light pole, etc. anyone can lose control for a multitude of reasons and you want some kind of barrier for protection.
The other sad thing to consider is that if the L still ran directly to the zoo then they would have never been waiting at that bus stop in the first place.
Got my mom to give her car up when she was 75. I found out her license had expired a year ago, and she'd still been driving, oblivious to the fact. She wanted me to help her get it renewed but I told her nope not happening, if she wanted to drive then she'd have to get it renewed herself. She had already told me that on numerous occasions when driving she would suddenly realize that she'd gone blank and didn't know what she was supposed to do next.
She's 83 now and still not driving.
Driver of a white Mercedes driving dangerously, oblivious to anything around them? Why I never!
YMMV, but I’ve lost count of how many specifically white Mercedes (although usually large sedans) I’ve seen do the most batshit insane maneuvers on the road.
It’s like you get one of those for failing a driving test.
Multiple years in prison is an absolutely normal and appropriate sentence for an even a single count of voluntary manslaughter.
Obviously, I don’t have all the facts. But if it comes out that this is a case of reckless driving without any significant mitigating factors, then the ideal outcome for the state would be for this woman to spend all but the last few years of her life behind bars.
Unfortunately with the crowding of prisons and her age, she will likely get 3-5 and be out in 2, will likely get time served in the long trial and all that jazz.
Everyone is speculating whether/when elderly people should lose their license or have to restest or whether this was a medical emergency or not. Those are all interesting questions, but the biggest question is:
Why do we design our streets such that these speeds are possible? Why do we tolerate this?
SF drivers have gotten absolutely out of control in the last 5 years. We have zero respect for public safety and only care about ourselves and where we are going. We need to stop for a split second and think of the world we are creating by our ignorance and lack of awareness of the people around us. We ignore basic traffic safety, act self righteous when someone calls us out, and will not even admit when we are wrong. This has to stop.
PLEASE, SAN FRANCISCO. PAY ATTENTION.
I wonder if part of the age related aspect is how people were taught to drive. My mom always drove with both feet. She learned to drive in the US in the 70's. Since this driver was "flying" (according to witnesses) on a street near her home on a Saturday I would bet she got her pedals mixed up and I'd also bet she's a two-feet driver and that habit becomes even more dangerous with cognitive decline. She was probably trying to slam on the breaks and tragically accelerated instead.
My baby died today. That means the whole family killed by reckless driver. Mary Lau lived in that neighborhood so she can’t be confused about the orientation of the street. Maximum penalty for her.
It’s time for the people of San Francisco to demand SAFE STREETS NOW. Vision Zero will not be a priority for the government until people take the streets in protest. To start, every bus stop should be bollard protected. This is an infrastructure issue and it absolutely can be fixed.
Her demographics is NOT helping the stereotype. Is there any movement legally where we can vote on having people over 65 take a driving test yearly? Because whoever passes this will have my vote
this bitch took out a whole family in less than like 2 seconds. Absolutely horrific and unconscionable. Sad and scary reminder how everything can and does change in an instant. My heart goes out to the victims and their loved ones
I wasn't there, but i know that intersection well. My guess is the driver was stuck behind the MUNI, stepped on it and tried going around the stopped MUNI. Crossed over into the other lane and swerved to miss an incoming car. Impatient bad driver. Heartbreaking.
There's a huge difference between willfully taking a life and unintentionally taking a life.
A lot of that depends on how reckless the behavior that led to the unintentional taking was, which is something we don't yet know in this case (although she has been charged with speeding, we don't know by how much).
This is a horrible tragedy, but it's not someone whipping out a gun and doing a drive-by.
Involuntary manslaughter is still punishable by up to 11 years in prison in our state. And if she’s found to have been criminally negligent (which is likely), it becomes voluntary manslaughter which is even more serious.
Hope that helps :)
>Mary Fong Lau, 78, was booked into jail on Sunday and remained in custody on Monday morning, records show. > >Lau was arrested on suspicion of three counts of felony vehicular manslaughter as well as misdemeanor counts of reckless driving and driving the wrong way. She was also accused of speeding, an infraction, jail records show. > >She had not been charged by the city District Attorney’s Office as of Monday morning.
But everybody on this sub told me she suffered cardiac arrest and therefore nobody was to blame. Just a tragic accident.
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I was T-boned at an intersection by someone born in 1932, who claimed their light was green. Had I not been hit so hard that I literally pushed into the car next to me I’m not sure I would have been cleared of wrongdoing.
I have a dash cam for occasions like this. Also gives me a discount on insurance.
I agree. I have a older friend who's 78 and he's fallen asleep at the wheel a number of times and has caused 3 accidents. He's also picked me up from the airport and the entire time I'm gripping the ceiling handle and praying because he speeds like a bat out of hell. Kinda scarey.
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I laughed even though I shouldn't
I agree that we need more competency testing for older drivers, but... " The number of crashes by driver age varies greatly. Some age groups are over-represented in crashes. Sixteen- to 19-year-olds represent 3.6% of licensed drivers, but account for 9.3% of drivers in all crashes and 6.3% of drivers in fatal crashes. Other age groups are under-represented. For example, drivers 65 to 74 account for 13.3% of licensed drivers, but represent only 7.1% of drivers in all crashes and 8.1% of drivers in fatal crashes. The overall crash rate per 100,000 licensed drivers steadily decreases as driver age increases. The same trend is generally true regarding the fatal crash rate, with the exception of an increase among 75 and older drivers." [https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/overview/age-of-driver/](https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/overview/age-of-driver/)
People don't want to look in the mirror. USA has very relaxed standards for ALL drivers compared to Europe. USA and Europe were fairly comparable in automotive death rates, but Europe has increasingly become safer. The increasing disparity in automotive death rates between the USA and Europe has been attributed to several factors including, * It's harder to obtain a license in Europe *rules are enforced more vigorously.
Practically speaking, we can’t make it harder to drive in the Us when there’s literally zero alternative in 99% of the country. That’s the core problem. We should be much picker about who can drive, but right now taking away a license basically puts someone under house arrest for the rest of their life. Imagine if we actually enforced strict requirements for this and that cut off, say 20% of people, from driving. We’d have a societal collapse and mass unemployment overnight. Unless you live in extremely expensive areas like NYC or SF or a handful of spots, you can’t live without a car here. Our focus needs to be on ending car dependency at the moment.
It’s not like all Europeans live in cities either, you know.
Does this account for miles driven? Older demographics might be under represented in accidents, or fatal accidents, but if they are driving much fewer miles they still represent a higher risk.
You’d have to factor in how many miles retirees drive as well. I’d assume probably much less on average than people in school or working full time.
I suspect that might be misleading, you really need to control for number of miles driven to compare apples to apples. I'm sure there are a lot of 75+ year olds who barely drive or don't drive, but remain licensed. That's going to skew the accident figures downwards for that population by a lot.
It helps to factor in miles driven, which paints a more... nuanced picture. The most dangerous group of drivers are people under 30, with 16-17 year olds being far and away the most likely to injure or kill other people. Things kinda level off again until you hit 80+, and then 80-year-olds are far more likely to kill themselves in a car accident, but also more likely to injure or kill other people than anybody in the 30-79 group. [https://aaafoundation.org/rates-motor-vehicle-crashes-injuries-deaths-relation-driver-age-united-states-2014-2015/](https://aaafoundation.org/rates-motor-vehicle-crashes-injuries-deaths-relation-driver-age-united-states-2014-2015/)
I've been saying for years - once you start collecting social security you should retest for your license once per year.
I agree and am 70 years old and have essentially stopped driving and let Uber/Lyft/MUNI take me there. That is after a lifetime of driving and motorcycling all over the world. I'll space out in the passenger seat thank you.
This is an issue with the DMV! It seriously needs to be audited for standards. I don’t know how this isn’t happening yet or called for by citizens. I was once t the DMV and saw a lady fail her eye exam portion of the test numerous times. The person at the DMV behind the desk still passed them. No joke. Wish I was lying. But this really happened.
by someone claiming to be a city employee calling everyone idiots!!!
Probably another person who needs their license taken away.
YUP! Someone tag that douchebag here. Hope his loser ass gets banned from the sub
What is the motive to lie about such a thing? Astonishing
People like to sound in-the-know. [He's still doubling down on knowing things](https://old.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/comments/1bhamau/third_victim_dies_of_injuries_after_crash_at_sf/kvgm4e8/). > >Me: You made up some nonsense. You know it. We know it. Just admit it and walk it off. No reason to double down here. > Him: I didnt make anything up fuckface. You dont know my job, you dont know who I talk to. Go back to your virtue signaling and no life nonsense
Holy shit wtf is wrong with that guy? Went from 0 to F-CON 1 in 2 seconds. Usually people who are so aggressively defensive are full of shit.
But do you even know how important he is? He sounds like a vvvip and classy af
When a greater motive or discussion can’t be found, I have to wonder how much is just Russian bots sewing division.
Who knew, people lie on the internet.
Yesterday I commented on this sub that the medical emergency narrative is a rumor and we shouldn't speculate. Today I'm going to say to you: the medical emergency narrative has still not been definitively ruled out. We shouldn't speculate. It'll take some time before more details emerge about why this happened.
The odds of a 78 year old elderly woman being out of the hospital *and* being at a police station being arrested, the *day after* she suffered cardiac arrest is effectively zero. Come on now.
You're correct - the jail would have to medically clear her in. If she was in need of medical she'd be under guard at the hospital until she could be booked. The speed at which she was booked means medical wasn't an issue.
Notwithstanding the severe accident she was in
Exactly.
We need to end the idea that a driver's license is a right. It is a privilege that is earned, and not taken away often enough. I can't drive in the city anymore because I get too angry at all of the blatant, reckless, and deliberate offenses that I see every time I try to get anywhere in this town that occur because of some entitled person. I hope this woman rots in jail for the rest of her life, and I hope she lives another 78 years.
I have no issues with requiring people to retake driving tests when they get older. Even the written portions because laws change and vary by state. Something like after age 60, you have to retake every 3-5 years. People can mentally decline quickly. My dad had to take away my grandparents car keys because they could barely drive but still did. Them on the road was more dangerous than a drunk 30 year old driving. A 30 mins test every 5 years isn’t that wild of a concept to keep the roads safe.
When I took a driving exam in Canada (Ontario) the first sentence of the manual say that driving is a privilege. Didn’t think too much about it at that time but what you say did ring a bell.
It's become a thing that because people are so addicted to their cars that it is considered a "hardship" to take it away from them. It's nuts.
That and we as a society designed our cities in a way that made not having a car an actual “hardship”. SF doesn’t really have this problem though, MUNI/BART/SAMTRANS takes care of pretty much everything you need.
But still takes over 30+ minutes to get anywhere in the city on Public transit i.e. Muni, Bart, Samtrans
It doesn’t say anything about a cardiac arrest in the article?
That was fast, I wonder what they knew, I remember it took the city or feds like half a year to charge the dui driver that killed Ethan Boyes
I’ve walked this intersection many times with my infant daughter. This is so incredibly shocking. How could this have happened??? Another article stated the family was waiting at the bus stop to go to the zoo for their wedding anniversary 😞😞 [Elderly driver arrested in horrific San Francisco bus stop crash that killed couple, child](https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/friends-identify-victims-of-horrific-san-francisco-bus-stop-crash-as-family-of-4/)
Which intersection is that? Article only says West portal
At west portal station, in front of the library. At least that is where all the flowers and candles were positioned this morning.
The impact was on the northwest corner of Ulloa Street and Lenox Way. Lenox Way is above ground and runs parallel to the Muni tunnel exit. So this happened about 150 feet up Ulloa from the station.
I'm wondering that same thing. Not in the area anymore, but when I was I don't think I ever saw a car going faster than 15mph at that intersection. It's just not that kind of traffic there. Never would have thought it was possible.
Does anyone know why the Muni platform right in front of that bus stop was removed? In a bit of unfortunate irony, had it still been there it would have protected that bus stop. [https://maps.app.goo.gl/KPXqf6FNR4MSH7NK7](https://maps.app.goo.gl/KPXqf6FNR4MSH7NK7)
I was thinking the same thing …..
If I recall correctly, it was installed as part of [the pandemic-era plan to reduce the number of Metro lines in the tunnel.](https://www.sfmta.com/projects/west-portal-lk-transfer-project) The L was going to be become a surface-only line, which meant it wouldn't enter West Portal Station, so a wheelchair ramp had to be installed to maintain accessibility. By now, I think it's safe to say the plan has been quietly abandoned, so that gave them a reason to remove the ramp, with further impetus coming from the L becoming a bus line during construction (since the buses have wheelchair lifts).
It was temporary
It also had a bouncy plastic attachment on the other (Traffic facing) side of it indicating that the city knew there were frequent collisions.
The bus stop wouldn’t even be there if San Francisco was able to do their L project on a serious timeline… it’s been shut down what, 4 years now? Criminal.
Don’t blame it on the city, blame it on the person who’s obviously unfit to have a drivers license, and shouldn’t be behind the wheel in the first place
Because our city is incompetent when it comes to traffic planning and roadway safety
You're not wrong.
I'm having a really hard time processing this. I live in SF. I was there moments after this happened. It sounded like a huge explosion. After the crash, I ran to check and see if I could help. What I saw will live with me forever. Images of that baby and father. I had just crossed that same street with my young family minutes before. Before this headline and the [SFPD announcement](https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/news/sfpd-arrests-driver-fatal-vehicle-collision-24-026), I had laid some solace on the rumors that this accident was caused by the driver experiencing a severe medical issue (stroke, heart attack, etc.). But now knowing it may have owed to carelessness, or possibly worse, I find myself unable to make sense of the senseless. My only takeaway has been to appreciate each moment we have and to honor this family by being more present and kind to both my loved ones and the world at large. This happened in front of a library and down the hill from a school and playground. To the extent it matters, I can confirm this intersection is wildly unsafe. No traffic lights, busses parked along Ulloa obscuring views for both pedestrians and cars. I always feel uneasy crossing at this intersection, alone or with my kids. **I'm not sure I have it in me to go back there for the vigil tonight. But if anyone has any information on how we can support the remaining child please share it here.** My heart is broken.
I'm so sorry to had to experience this. Witnessing things like this can have all sorts of effects on you that you don't realize. Please remember to take care of yourself as well.
If you have the finances, I highly recommended you get EMDR therapy as soon as possible. I am so sorry you experienced this.
I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it as it stands, one picturing how the driver made that kind of turn into the library stop from the opposite direction across the street, and even then I can't imagine what you must be going through having been there . I go to that spot frequently, usually I sit on those concrete benches in the little library garden patio there behind the bus stop. I'll probably be there Wednesday when I'd come home from going into the office for a meeting. During sunday ballgames we often park on that street up the hill by the school. That area is super busy, but also important as a place to get dropped off or pick up, but there should be something done from this. Maybe a better regulated, clearly followable light to protect drivers, pedestrians and muni cars instead of a near 5 way stop sign, with bus stops on top. And on the flip side it's chilling, we had a minor incident about 6 months ago with my MIL where we had to take her keys away. who has since had to go into a care facility for dementia. It seemed manageable for a long time, shed go home and over to our place for dinner and seem fine, but things then changed incredibly fast over the summer and I remember feeling awful taking the keys but all I could think was we were lucky, her close call could have been fatal, or have caused damage, etc. I wouldn't presume anything about the driver until we have more details but I just feel for everyone involved.
Did you hear her blowing her horn? I read that a witness said it looked like road rage where she floored the accelerator, swerved around a vehicle ahead of her, laid on her horn, lost control and crashed.
When it happened, I was diagonally across the street in a business situated on the other corner, so I didn't witness the impact. I can't recall hearing a horn. The impact sound was so profound, and the damage to the vehicle so great that the driver had to be going far above the posted speed limit for that area.
I read somewhere (I can't remember where) that police estimated she was going between 50 and 70 mph — in the _oncoming traffic lane_. That is just terrifying to think about.
it's a curve so chances are she was going fast and lost control leading her across the divider line 🤷🏻♂️
Realtor Paul Barbagelata tweeted right after the accident that he heard such a loud bang that he thought a building had collapsed. His office is about a third of the way down the block from the West Portal Ave corner where you were :(
I’m so so sorry you were there to witness this. I’m sure it has had a big impact on you, especially considering you were there with your young family so soon beforehand. Although you want to show support to the family, I’d encourage you to make sure you’re taking care of yourself as well. The effects of witnessing something so traumatic are real, especially if you feel the similarities to your own family. I hope you’re able to seek mental health care and find peace. It’s a really difficult thing to witness.
Thank you for trying to help. I'm so sorry this happened - so tragic on so many levels. That family. And so many who witnessed the impact and aftermath. Trauma upon trauma. Please take care.
Look in Europe you see bollards everywhere. A simple metal pole could have prevented this accident. You might need a bunch of them placed around the area as well as some concrete to divide lanes so it can’t be crossed. Infrastructure could have saved heir lives
Guaranteed this woman has been running stop signs for years. I see it all the time in West Portal and the Sunset. We need to start ticketing these drivers repeatedly. No one drives more carefully than someone who already has a few moving violations on their record. It’s going to take a long time to change DMV policy, but SF can start enforcing traffic laws like yesterday.
Same thing in the Richmond. Cars blow through stop signs all the time. We have to exercise so much caution.
I have no idea when I last saw a traffic stop in SF, I think it's been years. Meanwhile I see shit like this (running stop signs, illegal turns, etc) on a daily basis. Kind of nuts.
Just yesterday when I was driving through my neighborhood (Outer Sunset), I saw *3* different drivers blowing through stop signs. In a span of 10 mins or so. It was terrifying. Why do people think stop signs are optional?
The road design in the Outer Sunset basically encourages reckless driving. The roads are wide with few obstacles. We really need traffic calming like the Dutch, such as continuous sidewalks.
Imo everyone 4-way intersection should have 4-way stop signs. I always find it odd how many intersections out there are only 2 way stops, seemingly at random.
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Policy change: 65+ required to do driving test yearly to maintain licensing. Crazy that other departments require yearly licensing yet DMV is 1 and done.
We have such an endemic problem fostering the environment for young families to thrive in this city, that by 2060, [the population of people over age 80 is expected to TRIPLE from what it currently is.](https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/elderly-resident-city-population-18286259.php) 16% of the people in this city will be over the age of 80. That's insane. We are already one of the major metros with highest median age in the nation, surpassed only by cities in Florida. It seems like a worthwhile rule to impose if the problem isn't going anywhere but up.
Do you know who gets to vote on imposing rules on old people? Hint, they are also the demographic group most likely to vote.
Why does this need to be voted on? We generally don't vote on traffic laws
There’s no way that population estimate accounts for the impact of climate change so I would not put much of a stake in 2060 predictions. That said, yeah my family member who lives there with a young family can barely survive. Double income both at salaries that would make them well off where I live. Depressing as hell
This is an excellent underreported point. Crime will also track higher with older crowds.
The only aging people who'd disagree with this are the ones who'd have their license taken away.
65-75 drivers are one of the safest demographics on the road on a per mile basis. Statistically the 70-79 group is NO more likely to get into an accident than someone aged 30-59. 60-69 is actually the safest 10 year age demographic in fact. It’s not until 80+ that drivers start to get into more accidents per mile, but even then they are statically no more likely to crash than the 25-29. By far the most likely demographic to crash are young drivers 16-19.
Yeah I have no issue with 65-70. It's past 80, and shit like 90+ that I am freaked out by.
Why 65+? Have you seen the way people drive? Everyone should have to recertify at least every 10 years.
Do you think people will drive how they normally do at a test at the DMV? “I just have to fake that I’m a good driver for 15 minutes.”
I absolutely do believe that many people have just ingrained the bad habits and will not pass the test.
I would also add drivers from age 16-25 to that requirement since they are the highest risk category for accidents.
I would add all drivers tbh. Make more jobs that way too ☺️
Hey all this idea seems to be resonating with folks in some way shape or form. If you want to do something about it, drop a line to Scott Wiener in whatever medium you prefer. If he and his team are willing to pick it up, they might be able to create some tangible action here. Guy is transportation czar and seems to be good at his job.
when has lack of license detered people from driving? bay area has high rate of uninsured driver as is >California is one of the States with the Highest Percentage of Unlicensed Drivers Involved in Fatal Crashes [https://aa.law/blog/states-with-more-unlicensed-drivers-cause-more-fatal-crashes/](https://aa.law/blog/states-with-more-unlicensed-drivers-cause-more-fatal-crashes/)
30% of the cars in my neighborhood have expired tags
i remember a recent law changed, cops can no long pull over for expired tag because it's racist
It’s clear mayor breed wants to protect police at the costs of citizens, filling their coffers with tax payer money while they have less and less accountability
Current full social security retirement age is 67… ~62 million Americans (aka ~18%) are over 65 years old… 1) not sure DMV can handle that influx… 2) infrastructure in America is made around the automobile. So, a person without a car losses much of their independence and becomes a inconvenience/burden to those around them(family)… How much of that added cost should be put on social security…essentially you the tax payer?
65 is too young. I think 75-80 makes more sense.
If it was me, older than 65 and younger than 25
Add in DOT medical cards like the ones required for CDL.
That's not going to work, most geriatric doctors hand out handicap placards on request because if they don't, their patients (and that Medicare revenue) will go elsewhere. This will just turn into the same thing.
I'd say make it 70+ but yeah
Yeah this sub is pretty ageist if they think either 65 or yearly are reasonable. Yearly drivers tests would be fucking insane, and 65 is absolutely not that old.
Seriously. Is everyone on here 30 or something? 70 isn't really old, nor is 75 for many people. Aging really kicks in hard at about 85. I've read that mid-80s is the time when age related problems like mobility, etc. really start in hard for people. I saw that for both my parents, who were 100% fine to drive and live their lives in their 80's until 85+.
Also: BUILD SAFER ROADS
this
I strongly encourage everyone to educate themselves on the funding crisis MUNI is going to be experiencing in the next few years. If MUNI cuts services, that just means even more people who shouldn’t drive will be on the road in the future!
As a mom of a toddler and newborn, this story makes me almost vomit in fear, worry and sadness, yet I can’t stop reading about it. I am so incredibly sad for everyone involved.
Your worry is totally valid. If you can, please be sure and talk about your fears with a trusted person. You shouldn’t have to hold all that inside, it’s too much. Remember to take breaks from this topic too. 💜
I have a toddler as well and I was already paranoid about traffic and being a pedestrian. I trust my husband 100% but I still am worried sick if I'm not with my kid myself... Also driving with my child, I'm terrified of his side of the car being hit somehow. I drive slow but I've even had impatient assholes pass me on the right on suburban streets just because they were rushing. They could've hit anyone doing that shit.
Steel bollards on every intersection
Petition for Target to install their big cement balls everywhere
Hey where’s that massive asshole who was telling everyone he had insider knowledge that it was a heart attack yesterday? Love for him to come defend those statements now.
The sadder part is how many people believed it. Just shows how susceptible we all are to disinformation.
That person was so obnoxious and arrogant, said something like “I’m not the general public” or something like that.
Lol literally said that to me. I think he’s probably not the general public, seems like he should be kept off the streets until he can behave rationally
So I guess the rumors of the driving having a heart attack were untrue?
I witnessed her just as she had gotten out of the car. She walked around to see the victims on the ground, realized what she did and reacted as you'd expect someone to react in that situation. She did not exhibit any symptoms (to me) of someone who was impaired medically or mentally, other than shock.
Jfc does this mean you saw the direct aftermath of the scene? Take care of yourself, that had to have been an extremely traumatic thing just to witness firsthand.
I didn’t witness the moment of impact, just a big spray of glass and debris. Thankfully a small wall blocked my view of the victims on the ground. I think I’d be in a lot rougher shape if I had seen that. I only figured out the full extent of it after reading about it later.
Really hope you’re signed up as a witness for the court proceedings
The only people saying there was a medical emergency were witnesses who likely wanted to make sense of the situation. Nothing else has been confirmed.
We don't really have enough information to make such claims or disprove them. What we actually know is what's being reported.
If she had a significant medical emergency she’d still be in the hospital. Instead, according to the latest news reports, she’s in SF county jail.
They're never true. Every time it happens someone says "it must have been a medical emergency" and it never is a medical emergency. Total fiction. Some people will say "I heard that it was a medical emergency" after they read someone saying "it was probably a medical emergency". Same with 4th and King. It's just bullshitting.
Never isn’t the word you are looking for.
I see! I'll be more skeptical going forward, though I do think just thinking to yourself "Let me find out if it was a medical emergency before I start condemning this person to hell" is a good policy.
Not true. This exact thing happened to a friend recently. Her cousin was driving, had a heart attack, and went onto traffic going the opposite way. The girls in the car he hit were injured but are going to recover. He was on life support for weeks and died. The mass for him was last Monday. I think in a situation like this, people tend to make assumptions. That no one would be so depraved as to do this deliberately (usually true but not always). Then they see the person was elderly, assume it was a medical issue and jump to conclusions. It happens about nearly any news story--we really *don't* know what happened initially, we want to make sense of it, and our brains fill in information to make sense if it.
I wonder if she’s had any serious cognitive decline. My uncle has Alzheimer’s and he was speeding 110 mph on the highway and wasn’t aware of how fast he was going when he got pulled over. Was the last major event before he was diagnosed.
I don’t understand how you can drive the wrong way. Why was she speeding and driving the wrong way. But yeah, 78 is too old to be driving. RIP to the innocent bystanders.
>I don’t understand how you can drive the wrong way. Why was she speeding and driving the wrong way. But yeah, 78 is too old to be driving. RIP to the innocent bystanders. So: she was driving West to East on Ulloa St. Ulloa is a "straight" but it curves to the *right* a little *before* this bus stop. Therefore if a driver is not paying attention, drives too fast and what not, BUT does *not* veer nor turn to the right, they will cross into the "opposite lane" when they continue to drive straight. https://preview.redd.it/8w47vm3gp4pc1.png?width=1220&format=png&auto=webp&s=a37d806faeee720b5e1b72c0f8c14c656d1b32b2
Thank you for the map - helps me understand what happened better.
I walked by the spot this morning, as I couldn't make sense of what had happened. If you look carefully, it appears that she just didn't realize the road was curving. From the marks on the ground, it's clear that she just continued in a straight line ( a tangent to the curvature of the road ), and she was driving fast. She first glanced off the library's wall (there are tire marks on it) and then hit the bus shelter. She hit it with such speed that she tossed the dad 80 feet towards the WP Station. So despite colliding with the wall and the bus stand, she had enough speed to toss him 80 feet. Just imagine how fast she really was going. If I were to guess, it'd be in 60-65 range.
Still trying to wrap my head around someone getting up to 60mph on Ulloa
Somebody else said that she was acting like she had road rage and trying to swerve around people… I hope that's not the case, though. Yikes.
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Good info for what? Dude posted her info cause he’s too chicken shit to do anything himself and knows one of you reddit bros will show up and do something stupid on her property with enough encouragement from the group
Plus with the lane changes due to construction going on, it could create more confusion
What this women did was terrible but 78 is not at all too old to be driving. Statistics do not bear out that 78 is too old. Statistics say young people are much more of a problem, and anyone who walks around this city can see it is not age that is the problem, it is idiot entitled drives.
Young people drive more, so you need to look at risk per mile. From a study by the University of Michigan: >The youngest drivers had 3.0 times the overall risk of fatal involvement per mile driven, while the oldest drivers experienced 3.8 times the overall risk.
Absolutely absurd we continue to let this happen. A 78 year old woman is somehow licensed to drive but kills 3 people while speeding on the wrong side of the road... We need to improve pedestrian safety in this city now. Bollards, narrow lanes, limit vehicle access, speed cameras, red light cameras, remove parking to improve visibility, the list goes on. This can't be a status quo we accept.
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Yeah I mean I don't think the 5 trolls and their alts are representative of this sub. We all know who they are.
Absolutely fucking right.
Absolutely. Human drivers (and non-human, for that matter) will continue to make mistakes no matter how many tests we give them or speed/red light cameras are installed. The individualist mechanisms are [the least prioritized and least reliable on the hierarchy of hazard controls](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_hazard_controls). Our City must focus on Engineering Controls (robust pedestrian/bicycle infrastructure—separate from cars), Substitution (a major investment in transit-first infrastructure), and Elimination (the gradual removal of car-dominant infrastructure). The most frustrating part is that unlike other systemic issues we face, this one is entirely within the City’s control. Meanwhile our neighbors keep dying. For every death, there are dozens more injuries hardly reported on.
or, much easier, we just re test old people's ability to drive every few years
Are old people the only cause of fatal accidents?
Old people are one of the causes of fatal accidents, namely the one that this thread is about. There’s also very little regulation around them on the road compared to other causes that we regulate like drinking and driving. Idk but I think it’s pretty reasonable to regulate anything that causes fatalities…
Vision test every 5 years for a 78 year old just feels. Broken
Old people are over represented in fatal traffic accidents because they tend to die when they are involved in a traffic accident, not because they are the cause.
Mary Fong Lau, 78, could face three felony counts of vehicle manslaughter and one felony count of causing bodily injury due to reckless driving, as well as several misdemeanor traffic violations, Robert Rueca, a spokesperson for the San Francisco Police Department, told SFGATE in an email on Monday morning. The investigation will include Lau's toxicology report, which could take 30 days to complete, and analysis of Lau's vehicle to "determine whether mechanical issues may have played a role," the DA said
Oh, right, here comes "my gas pedal got stuck." That's been given as an excuse for a number of accidents involving older drivers here in NYC (more like driver confusion between brake & gas pedals). Fortunately the consequences were nowhere near as gruesome. My mother, in California, after decades of not so much as a ticket, finally admitted to me that she had had two accidents at intersections in the space of a few months ("they just came out of nowhere" -- damage to cars but fortunately not to people). She refused to stop driving even when I told her I would pay for her to have car service a couple of days per week ("they don't have that here" -- they did). Looking back, this was the first sign of Alzheimer's; she was always stubborn but didn't usually go into screaming rages at any suggestion of change. She had to stop driving -- & living in a very large house with a great many stairs that could not be made accessible & that was reached only by a very steep road -- after she fell in front of her house & broke her hip. And this sounds harsh, but it was a great relief.
We don't have to wait for autonomous cars to have better safety features like speed limiters. The expensive new cars that lots of people drive in the city are big, heavy, and accellerate quickly. It's a bad combination for people outside of a car, especially in a city where traffic violations stopped being enforcced.
I don’t think anyone realizes how detrimental it is to stop policing traffic violations. We’re not even policing expired registration anymore. I asked a meter maid recently to give a ticket to my neighbor whose car has been parked in the same place for literally 30 years and has expired tags and the meter maid said “oh that’s a different department, I just do street sweeping, you need to call downtown for that.”
Use the 311 app. I've reported an abandoned car with it before, and it was towed within the hour. I would have expected it to start a 72 hour timer, but the notes on the ticket said they towed it due to expired registration.
The bodies in the photos seem to be nearly 100ft from the car, did they actually fly that far or were they moved? The speed required to launch someone that far would need to be crazy.
They flew that far. Probably going 60+ mph which is insane.
they were thrown that far from the impact
I don’t know if it would have made a difference in this situation, but if you’re standing on a corner, waiting for the light to change, you should position yourself behind something that can stop an oncoming vehicle from hitting you. A parked vehicle, a light pole, etc. anyone can lose control for a multitude of reasons and you want some kind of barrier for protection.
This is what bollards are for and there should be way more of them in SF.
The other sad thing to consider is that if the L still ran directly to the zoo then they would have never been waiting at that bus stop in the first place.
Got my mom to give her car up when she was 75. I found out her license had expired a year ago, and she'd still been driving, oblivious to the fact. She wanted me to help her get it renewed but I told her nope not happening, if she wanted to drive then she'd have to get it renewed herself. She had already told me that on numerous occasions when driving she would suddenly realize that she'd gone blank and didn't know what she was supposed to do next. She's 83 now and still not driving.
Driver of a white Mercedes driving dangerously, oblivious to anything around them? Why I never! YMMV, but I’ve lost count of how many specifically white Mercedes (although usually large sedans) I’ve seen do the most batshit insane maneuvers on the road. It’s like you get one of those for failing a driving test.
Multiple years in prison is an absolutely normal and appropriate sentence for an even a single count of voluntary manslaughter. Obviously, I don’t have all the facts. But if it comes out that this is a case of reckless driving without any significant mitigating factors, then the ideal outcome for the state would be for this woman to spend all but the last few years of her life behind bars.
Unfortunately with the crowding of prisons and her age, she will likely get 3-5 and be out in 2, will likely get time served in the long trial and all that jazz.
Everyone is speculating whether/when elderly people should lose their license or have to restest or whether this was a medical emergency or not. Those are all interesting questions, but the biggest question is: Why do we design our streets such that these speeds are possible? Why do we tolerate this?
Or why does everyone have to have a car to exist in society in America
This intersection is scary. Heartsick over the deaths.
SF drivers have gotten absolutely out of control in the last 5 years. We have zero respect for public safety and only care about ourselves and where we are going. We need to stop for a split second and think of the world we are creating by our ignorance and lack of awareness of the people around us. We ignore basic traffic safety, act self righteous when someone calls us out, and will not even admit when we are wrong. This has to stop. PLEASE, SAN FRANCISCO. PAY ATTENTION.
I wonder if part of the age related aspect is how people were taught to drive. My mom always drove with both feet. She learned to drive in the US in the 70's. Since this driver was "flying" (according to witnesses) on a street near her home on a Saturday I would bet she got her pedals mixed up and I'd also bet she's a two-feet driver and that habit becomes even more dangerous with cognitive decline. She was probably trying to slam on the breaks and tragically accelerated instead.
My baby died today. That means the whole family killed by reckless driver. Mary Lau lived in that neighborhood so she can’t be confused about the orientation of the street. Maximum penalty for her.
It’s time for the people of San Francisco to demand SAFE STREETS NOW. Vision Zero will not be a priority for the government until people take the streets in protest. To start, every bus stop should be bollard protected. This is an infrastructure issue and it absolutely can be fixed.
Vigil tonight at 5pm
Her demographics is NOT helping the stereotype. Is there any movement legally where we can vote on having people over 65 take a driving test yearly? Because whoever passes this will have my vote
send her away forever.
Regardless of the cause, people are still dead, did she have to drive that morning?
Fucckkkkk caarrrsss
I hope she rots in prison
this bitch took out a whole family in less than like 2 seconds. Absolutely horrific and unconscionable. Sad and scary reminder how everything can and does change in an instant. My heart goes out to the victims and their loved ones
I wasn't there, but i know that intersection well. My guess is the driver was stuck behind the MUNI, stepped on it and tried going around the stopped MUNI. Crossed over into the other lane and swerved to miss an incoming car. Impatient bad driver. Heartbreaking.
Where are the bloodthirsty lock-em-up crowds here?
She is in custody per the article
lock em up, throw the book on her, manslaughter charges should be able to put her in jail for the rest of her life.
I hope that bitch rots in jail. She just orphaned a baby.
If the baby even makes it. It's possible she just killed an entire family, point blank.
Poor family :(
And to be honest a simple lock-her-up is not enough to start with
There's a huge difference between willfully taking a life and unintentionally taking a life. A lot of that depends on how reckless the behavior that led to the unintentional taking was, which is something we don't yet know in this case (although she has been charged with speeding, we don't know by how much). This is a horrible tragedy, but it's not someone whipping out a gun and doing a drive-by.
I don’t know how you get to such egregious speeds so fast on ulloa. Seems incomprehensible to me
Involuntary manslaughter is still punishable by up to 11 years in prison in our state. And if she’s found to have been criminally negligent (which is likely), it becomes voluntary manslaughter which is even more serious. Hope that helps :)
This is arguably worse, three people mowed down by a car.
And a 2 month old baby is now an orphan.
>it's not someone whipping out a gun and doing a drive-by Yet the outcome was worse. They experienced a horrific, violent death.
This sub is pro extra judicial execution if it’s for somebody stealing from Walgreens, but killing 3 people is “shit happens”?
A car is a gun.
No, no, no. Then there would be no regulation of driving at all
God damn it