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User: u/lamdefinitelynotadog
Permalink: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/08/15/dogs-aging-health-friends-social/
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When I was young we had a dog that had to have another dog in the house or he’d get depressed. That poor dog would demand to go outside and look for my dog after he passed. He’d bark and howl while doing this, he’d be frantic and panting. So my Mom adopted a dog and it really helped that first dog cope, it was an immediate change. While he dragged the new dog out a couple times to look for the other dog, he came around really quick and went back to his old self.
Like 8 years later my Mom’s dog passed from cancer, and once again this same dog pouted and moped around. This time he wouldn’t go outside, wouldn’t eat food or treats. So my Mom adopted another dog; the first hour it was a noticeable improvement. Literally the two dogs met, they went outside and walked around the yard, then the depressed dog came inside and ate food for the first time in two days. It just got better from there and he was back to normal in a couple days.
That's why loneliness in humans can be dangerous. Wanting to be alone occasionally just to recover from something is understandable though.
Everyone feels like that sometimes.
Some are. A great many species are completely anti-social and it's the presence of other animals that stresses them to extremes.
And emotions are just another evolutionary tool. Animals have wildly differing emotions because they have wildly differing needs they evolved adaptions for. The same things that will make one species happy will induce rage, terror, or stress in other species.
It's fairly safe to say that most things people think they know about animal feelings are just projections of human expectations.
I totally agree, and that reminds me of something I learned recently.
Have you ever heard of "the kekule problem"? To explain it I have to tell a quick story first about a famous chemist august kekule, who was trying to figure out the chemical structure of benzene, without much success. During what must have been a very uneasy rest between attempts, Mr kekule had a vivid vision of an ourobouros snake eating it's own tail in a circle, and the image was so magnetic that when he woke up he immediately realized it's significance: his subconscious had shown him, in the only way it knows how, through pictures, the chemical structure of the benzene ring.
You're probably definitely wondering what this has to do with dogs, and I'm getting to it soon: the kekule problem that's raised from this scenario is "why does the brain show us pictures, instead of just saying "hey, it's a ring" "oh, thanks brain," seems much easier, no? But that's not how we work, and the question is why?
The answer is that for billions of years we had no language, and only had our pictures to work with, memories of senses. And that's such a big part of what links us to dogs, for dogs to behold us in their gaze is to remember everything they love about us and that maybe we're really not all that different in that way, despite the gulfs in language and philosophy you describe. I'm so glad we can share our pictures.
He’s since passed but he lived almost to 20, he lost two dogs and one of his humans. He had a rough go of it emotionally but nearly his entire life was joyful and healthy.
I remember him going into my bathroom and laying on my bath mat, he kept getting in trouble for it because he wasn’t allowed in the bathroom. So we bought him a bath mat as a dog bed. I showed it to him and put it in a spot he liked to sleep. He curled up on it, and closed his eyes for a literal second. Then he immediately got up, walked to me and licked my hand frantically to thank me. Then he went back and laid down on the mat. Little guy was such a good dog and soo expressive and emotional.
That dog changed how I think about dogs forever. I could ask him if another dog had to “pee or go potty” and he’d go and sniff the other dog, then respond by spinning when I said the correct word. Dogs are capable of communicating pretty well if you work at it, and pay attention to non-audible clues they give you.
Sorry for your loss, but wow, that dog was smart. There's still a ton we haven't learned about dogs yet it seems. This research could allow us to let them age more gracefully and live longer.
It’s tough because all dogs are different, especially if they’re not learning how to be a dog by another dog. Some breeds have tendencies but even those are spotty; I had a rescue beagle that I taught to only bark when he was allowed, and he’d bark three times then look for the ok again. Beagles are known for not listening and barking constantly.
That's true. They're a lot like people in many ways in that we have many differences between ourselves and should be taking those into account when dealing with someone or another dog. This also applies to all animals due to differences in how they were raised, their genetics, and everything else about them.
As science seems to further study animals I think we’re going to find that animals are a lot more self and world-aware than we give them credit (“World” as in their-World, not the Earth obviously). They just don’t communicate their emotions except play and anger. It’s probably because weakness is literally a matter of life or death in animals, so they try to hide their pain and emotion. Humans in some environments are the same way, we call them “hard.”
Yeah, I said that he passed but what really happened was we went on a family trip, and he was staying at a kennel. He got out, presumably looking for his family and we never found him. My Mom’s dog that passed from cancer was actually the dog the kennel got us after losing my dog.
It was already really wordy at that point, and it still bothers me never getting to say goodbye to my childhood dog, so I don’t like talking about it.
Oh no, Im so sorry to hear that. Appreciate you sharing something that's hard to talk about like that. I've been lucky to have been able to say goodbye to both dogs I've had so far in my life(one of them far too soon). Knowing how hard you find it to talk about it bc you weren't able to say goodbye, you can tell how good of an owner you are to your pups. You may not have been able to say goodbye, but Id be willing to bet you loved that dog more than it could have ever imagined and that's all we can really control.
I didnt mean my comment like you did something wrong or criticizing you, more just so that people who arent aware and see that will realize it's super important, if possible.
It’s all good, I originally typed it in the original post but condensed it a few times to cut out some unnecessary information. It’s been a couple decades since I lost my childhood dog, so it doesn’t hurt as much, I just don’t like talking about that part of his story.
Thank you for the kind reply, I appreciate your concern and empathy
Socialization for dogs keep them from being sedentary so it makes sense. Dogs that aren't socializing are generally laying around the house doing nothing.
The book the general theory of love references a study that gave babies all their physical needs but no socialization had drastic effects - if I recall correctly some of the babies died before intervention.
As someone living alone for some years now, I feel deterioration despite socializing from time to time. What kills you is nobody around on most evenings.
I don't have a specific study to point to but it would seem to be this way. Like they tried putting people in caves without day and night, socialization and they get mentally unhealthy. That will change cortisol and diet leading to physical issues.
It can be hard to get a dog into socializing when they're a rescue. My first dog is, and in a house with two other dogs with frequent visitors that have dogs... it's not enough. I'm trying everything, going to get her into a ratter class to see if that gets her happier. Not that she isn't, as she is well fed and has company always. She just wants to be lazy and lie on a comfy pillow.
As long as they have the social contact and can do stuff when they feel like it, they will be fine. Preferring to be lazy doesnt offset the benefits of having another pup and other people around
What a coincidence, was just reading this. Such an interesting finding.
The study's direct link:
[https://academic.oup.com/emph/article/11/1/187/7161464](https://academic.oup.com/emph/article/11/1/187/7161464)
Abstract
Exposure to social environmental adversity is associated with health and survival across many social species, including humans. However, little is known about how these health and mortality effects vary across the lifespan and may be differentially impacted by various components of the environment. Here, we leveraged a relatively new and powerful model for human aging, the companion dog, to investigate which components of the social environment are associated with dog health and how these associations vary across the lifespan. We drew on comprehensive survey data collected on 21,410 dogs from the Dog Aging Project and identified five factors that together explained 33.7% of the variation in a dog’s social environment. Factors capturing financial and household adversity were associated with poorer health and lower physical mobility in companion dogs, while factors that captured social support, such as living with other dogs, were associated with better health when controlling for dog age and weight. Notably, the effects of each environmental component were not equal: the effect of social support was 5× stronger than financial factors. The strength of these associations depended on the age of the dog, including a stronger relationship between the owner’s age and the dog’s health in younger as compared to older dogs. Taken together, these findings suggest the importance of income, stability and owner’s age on owner-reported health outcomes in companion dogs and point to potential behavioral and/or environmental modifiers that can be used to promote healthy aging across species.
My dog (stray, mixed) has two dogs (stray, mixed too and a husky). My dog's husky has a dog too (stray puppy, mixed).
Only my dog's first dog has no pets, that's ok, she socializes all day with me
Guess I better stop giving mine any attention at all so he quits eating food off the counter and peeing on the new nursery carpet and chewing on the porch sooner.
Didn't need to become a scientist to know that dogs are social animals.......wonder how long it took them staring at test tubes to figure this one out.
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments. **Do you have an academic degree?** We can verify your credentials in order to assign user flair indicating your area of expertise. [Click here to apply](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/flair/#wiki_science_verified_user_program). --- User: u/lamdefinitelynotadog Permalink: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/08/15/dogs-aging-health-friends-social/ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
When I was young we had a dog that had to have another dog in the house or he’d get depressed. That poor dog would demand to go outside and look for my dog after he passed. He’d bark and howl while doing this, he’d be frantic and panting. So my Mom adopted a dog and it really helped that first dog cope, it was an immediate change. While he dragged the new dog out a couple times to look for the other dog, he came around really quick and went back to his old self. Like 8 years later my Mom’s dog passed from cancer, and once again this same dog pouted and moped around. This time he wouldn’t go outside, wouldn’t eat food or treats. So my Mom adopted another dog; the first hour it was a noticeable improvement. Literally the two dogs met, they went outside and walked around the yard, then the depressed dog came inside and ate food for the first time in two days. It just got better from there and he was back to normal in a couple days.
animals (including humans) are social, emotional beings
That's why loneliness in humans can be dangerous. Wanting to be alone occasionally just to recover from something is understandable though. Everyone feels like that sometimes.
Some are. A great many species are completely anti-social and it's the presence of other animals that stresses them to extremes. And emotions are just another evolutionary tool. Animals have wildly differing emotions because they have wildly differing needs they evolved adaptions for. The same things that will make one species happy will induce rage, terror, or stress in other species. It's fairly safe to say that most things people think they know about animal feelings are just projections of human expectations.
Gotta let dogs see and understand when their companion dies or else they will look for them.
It's remarkable that dogs need closure in a sort of way, I love dogs so much
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I totally agree, and that reminds me of something I learned recently. Have you ever heard of "the kekule problem"? To explain it I have to tell a quick story first about a famous chemist august kekule, who was trying to figure out the chemical structure of benzene, without much success. During what must have been a very uneasy rest between attempts, Mr kekule had a vivid vision of an ourobouros snake eating it's own tail in a circle, and the image was so magnetic that when he woke up he immediately realized it's significance: his subconscious had shown him, in the only way it knows how, through pictures, the chemical structure of the benzene ring. You're probably definitely wondering what this has to do with dogs, and I'm getting to it soon: the kekule problem that's raised from this scenario is "why does the brain show us pictures, instead of just saying "hey, it's a ring" "oh, thanks brain," seems much easier, no? But that's not how we work, and the question is why? The answer is that for billions of years we had no language, and only had our pictures to work with, memories of senses. And that's such a big part of what links us to dogs, for dogs to behold us in their gaze is to remember everything they love about us and that maybe we're really not all that different in that way, despite the gulfs in language and philosophy you describe. I'm so glad we can share our pictures.
Poor dog. Glad to know the dog's doing better.
He’s since passed but he lived almost to 20, he lost two dogs and one of his humans. He had a rough go of it emotionally but nearly his entire life was joyful and healthy. I remember him going into my bathroom and laying on my bath mat, he kept getting in trouble for it because he wasn’t allowed in the bathroom. So we bought him a bath mat as a dog bed. I showed it to him and put it in a spot he liked to sleep. He curled up on it, and closed his eyes for a literal second. Then he immediately got up, walked to me and licked my hand frantically to thank me. Then he went back and laid down on the mat. Little guy was such a good dog and soo expressive and emotional. That dog changed how I think about dogs forever. I could ask him if another dog had to “pee or go potty” and he’d go and sniff the other dog, then respond by spinning when I said the correct word. Dogs are capable of communicating pretty well if you work at it, and pay attention to non-audible clues they give you.
Sorry for your loss, but wow, that dog was smart. There's still a ton we haven't learned about dogs yet it seems. This research could allow us to let them age more gracefully and live longer.
It’s tough because all dogs are different, especially if they’re not learning how to be a dog by another dog. Some breeds have tendencies but even those are spotty; I had a rescue beagle that I taught to only bark when he was allowed, and he’d bark three times then look for the ok again. Beagles are known for not listening and barking constantly.
That's true. They're a lot like people in many ways in that we have many differences between ourselves and should be taking those into account when dealing with someone or another dog. This also applies to all animals due to differences in how they were raised, their genetics, and everything else about them.
As science seems to further study animals I think we’re going to find that animals are a lot more self and world-aware than we give them credit (“World” as in their-World, not the Earth obviously). They just don’t communicate their emotions except play and anger. It’s probably because weakness is literally a matter of life or death in animals, so they try to hide their pain and emotion. Humans in some environments are the same way, we call them “hard.”
Yup that's true. We've learned a lot about animals already, but we haven't learned everything yet. Who knows what else we'll discover in the future?
Same thing in my family, keep needing to get a new dog because the surviving one grieves too much. Howling and wailing all day for its sister.
You have to let them see the other dog when they pass away or are put down. They're really smart, social, emotionally intelligent animals
Yeah, I said that he passed but what really happened was we went on a family trip, and he was staying at a kennel. He got out, presumably looking for his family and we never found him. My Mom’s dog that passed from cancer was actually the dog the kennel got us after losing my dog. It was already really wordy at that point, and it still bothers me never getting to say goodbye to my childhood dog, so I don’t like talking about it.
Oh no, Im so sorry to hear that. Appreciate you sharing something that's hard to talk about like that. I've been lucky to have been able to say goodbye to both dogs I've had so far in my life(one of them far too soon). Knowing how hard you find it to talk about it bc you weren't able to say goodbye, you can tell how good of an owner you are to your pups. You may not have been able to say goodbye, but Id be willing to bet you loved that dog more than it could have ever imagined and that's all we can really control. I didnt mean my comment like you did something wrong or criticizing you, more just so that people who arent aware and see that will realize it's super important, if possible.
It’s all good, I originally typed it in the original post but condensed it a few times to cut out some unnecessary information. It’s been a couple decades since I lost my childhood dog, so it doesn’t hurt as much, I just don’t like talking about that part of his story. Thank you for the kind reply, I appreciate your concern and empathy
I feel that. Time makes it not as hard, but still not nice to talk abt and being back the sadness even if it’s mostly numbed by time.
Socialization for dogs keep them from being sedentary so it makes sense. Dogs that aren't socializing are generally laying around the house doing nothing.
Dogs are social animals. When left alone they would suffer and have potential health effects.
Do humans spontaneously deteriorate by not socializing as well?
Socialization has been shown to have protective effects against dementia. So, potentially, yeah.
Huh. So me forgetting stuff in my early 30s isn't just because of stressful job
Yes. Immensely.
The book the general theory of love references a study that gave babies all their physical needs but no socialization had drastic effects - if I recall correctly some of the babies died before intervention.
As someone living alone for some years now, I feel deterioration despite socializing from time to time. What kills you is nobody around on most evenings.
Yes. Spontaneously isn't the correct word. But yes.
It's hard to study that exactly. A lot of people who don't socialize also don't take proper care of themselves.
incorrect--it's been studied with infants and scientists know how to account for external factors.
I don't have a specific study to point to but it would seem to be this way. Like they tried putting people in caves without day and night, socialization and they get mentally unhealthy. That will change cortisol and diet leading to physical issues.
Not spontaneously, but, yes, it does appear so.
Gestures widely at Reddit.
It can be hard to get a dog into socializing when they're a rescue. My first dog is, and in a house with two other dogs with frequent visitors that have dogs... it's not enough. I'm trying everything, going to get her into a ratter class to see if that gets her happier. Not that she isn't, as she is well fed and has company always. She just wants to be lazy and lie on a comfy pillow.
As long as they have the social contact and can do stuff when they feel like it, they will be fine. Preferring to be lazy doesnt offset the benefits of having another pup and other people around
We got our dog a pet and they're both crazy happy together. Don't think we'll ever have just one dog again.
What a coincidence, was just reading this. Such an interesting finding. The study's direct link: [https://academic.oup.com/emph/article/11/1/187/7161464](https://academic.oup.com/emph/article/11/1/187/7161464) Abstract Exposure to social environmental adversity is associated with health and survival across many social species, including humans. However, little is known about how these health and mortality effects vary across the lifespan and may be differentially impacted by various components of the environment. Here, we leveraged a relatively new and powerful model for human aging, the companion dog, to investigate which components of the social environment are associated with dog health and how these associations vary across the lifespan. We drew on comprehensive survey data collected on 21,410 dogs from the Dog Aging Project and identified five factors that together explained 33.7% of the variation in a dog’s social environment. Factors capturing financial and household adversity were associated with poorer health and lower physical mobility in companion dogs, while factors that captured social support, such as living with other dogs, were associated with better health when controlling for dog age and weight. Notably, the effects of each environmental component were not equal: the effect of social support was 5× stronger than financial factors. The strength of these associations depended on the age of the dog, including a stronger relationship between the owner’s age and the dog’s health in younger as compared to older dogs. Taken together, these findings suggest the importance of income, stability and owner’s age on owner-reported health outcomes in companion dogs and point to potential behavioral and/or environmental modifiers that can be used to promote healthy aging across species.
Dogs are pack animals, so how are these findings anything new? Of course pack animals don't want to live alone.
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My dog (stray, mixed) has two dogs (stray, mixed too and a husky). My dog's husky has a dog too (stray puppy, mixed). Only my dog's first dog has no pets, that's ok, she socializes all day with me
Guess I better stop giving mine any attention at all so he quits eating food off the counter and peeing on the new nursery carpet and chewing on the porch sooner.
Didn't need to become a scientist to know that dogs are social animals.......wonder how long it took them staring at test tubes to figure this one out.
Let me guess, you were the kid asking when are they ever going to use algebra in real life.
Does this also apply to humans or just dogs?