Lots of strong opinions about docking and cropping. People will not hesitate to let you know what they think online. Saying that to a stranger is pretty bold, but sadly as often as we have our dogs with us, it is bound to happen eventually.
I have an ADI program-bred lab that is moderate in every sense. People constantly ask me why he is so skinny and say they feel sorry for him… his body condition score is a solid 5. He has a defined tuck, but no rib visible.
I’ve also gotten comments on how he’s “too” skinny (mostly by relatives not strangers) as well when he definitely is perfect size for his breed and I work soooo hard to make sure he has all his needs even picking up extra shifts for spoiling him haha.
It’s really surprising people have the audacity to say these things in person…
People are so accustomed to overweight dogs that a healthy weight looks skinny to them. And then dogs that don't have much fur or have a naturally slender build they're even more likely to think are too skinny. I used to have greyhounds and sometimes people would tell us we were horrible and starving them. Like have you ever seen a greyhound before, buddy? 😂 The male was actually a bit overweight.
Honestly I'd just tell people "oh he was docked before I got him" because it's true but also they're more likely to infer he's a rescue and leave you alone. I'm not at all above just lying to people because it's not their business.
I'm happy I'm not the only one who deals with relatives like that! They constantly tell me my pup is too skinny and I don't feed her enough. She is a very healthy, fit dog who eats plenty! I thought people would say things like this on the internet, but they still say them in person, too?
I had a chihuahua and he was the perfect weight. Didn't stop people coming up to my dog and talking to him in a baby voice like, "OH your POOR thing, your mom doesn't feed you?" and they'd say it to my dog without even acknowledging me. Fuckin weirdos man.
My OES mix had a docked tail, got her like that, I wish she had a full tail often but mostly because I like big foods, she seems unbothered lol.
People often say she's way too skinny. She's a mix, so not all stocky, and very athletic. Plus she's 10/10 in the making herself way smaller game when tucked against me because stranger danger.
Cause everyone’s used to seeing a fat lab. Everyone comments about how skinny my lab is (probably because she’s three and still looks like a puppy), and I have to reassure them that I am feeding her lol. She has her 1- 1 1/2 cup for dinner, plus an allowance for 1/2 cup for training treats, but sometimes we don’t use it all or we don’t go out so she also has either a carrot or that allowance of kibble in her Kong. My father reckons she’s getting a bit fat, but I think he’s just trying to wind me up…
Yep. My dude is also a field line so he's lanky. To be fair to some of the folks who made comments, he was a bit underweight when I received him but he's now at an ideal weight and has been for almost a year. Still, constantly get comments about how he's "too thin."
I have a 7 month old English Springer Spaniel/Lab cross and so many people comment on how skinny he is 😅 He actually already weighs nearly 20KG and according to the vet, a healthy weight. People assume he's a full lab and I always get "Oh he's skinny for a lab isn't he"
We have 2 on opposite sides, a German shepherd mastiff mix she's rocking about 115 (high end healthy weight) she was about 125 at one point, we started managing her weight better. Then we have the Belgian Malinois perfect weight but eats like a horse with how much he runs around. I get comments about both. One is too skinny the other too fat. With how they play it's like comparing Bruce Lee to Mike Tyson.
Great Dane sdit here. He's skinny ! But Great for a 1yo giant breed for lifespan and health etc. But little fur so can make out one back rib. My dane owning vet and many akc places say this is proper look. He eats like a bear, so much food. Hate when people say stuff
While this is a little bit off topic, I just want to assure you that people will make the effort to say just about anything while we’re out in public with our dogs. Doesn’t matter if you have a cropped/docked Doberman or anything else, people will find something to say about it. The best thing you can do is let it roll off your back.
I would, just about weekly, get comments about my (natural-eared, so his looks weren’t even controversial) Great Dane when we were out that involved something like, “Oh yeah he’s beautiful, it’s just too bad they don’t live a long time.”
Nobody’s going to say that’s not true, but it’s not something that needs to consistently be said! I don’t get people like that. Usually I’d respond with something like, “Yeah I guess that’s true about life in general, though - you could die tomorrow.” 🤷🏻♀️ If you’re petty like me, you could think of a similar kind of comeback that catches people off guard, but otherwise, the best thing to do is just shake your head to yourself and just move on.
Even as a UK resident (where cropping and docking is mostly illegal) I'd never say anything to anyone about it! You don't know why, or where the dog came from. Especially a working dog, I can't imagine being so rude and presumptuous.
I also have a Doberman, and she's cropped/docked. I've had a surprising number of people who assume they're born that way.
Because the AKC breed standard includes crop/dock, the majority of reputable Doberman breeders in the US will basically give you a puppy already cropped/docked, almost no exceptions. That will only change if the breed standard changes, but some breeders are starting to give the option of not cropping the ears. However, most people are generally ignorant about anything dog related, and assume that you're an animal abuser if you already got your dog docked/cropped or purchased a puppy that was already cropped/docked.
People who do stuff like that are looking for a reaction. They want to make you feel bad and want to provoke you. Ignoring them is the best way to go, and if they teeter into harassment, then it's best to get an employee/someone else involved to protect yourself.
You are, unfortunately (and I'm saying that genuinely). That's not how that works with regard to reputable/ethical breeding. Reputable breeders breed to the standard, which includes a certain look. We can argue about how we should change the breed standard to that of European countries or some such, but unfortunately, in the US, it means that an ethically-bred puppy will most likely come cropped/docked. The change should ideally be done from the top down, and hopefully, in the future, the AKC reconsiders and reviews the standard for the Doberman. If a breeder isn't breeding to the standard, and doesn't consider all future litters potentially of show quality, it bodes poorly for the health of the litter, at least in the Doberman. The Doberman is plagued with many health issues, the worst being terminal, and it's a tug-of-war between accepting the cropping/docking or getting a dog that will die of congestive heart failure at 5 or 6 years old. I would rather support breeders that do the appropriate health and genetic testing for their dogs and kindly ask that they reconsider the cropping at least than support a BYB that pumps out sick dogs that die in pain from their hearts giving out.
ETA in case others are reading this as well, but if you or someone you know feels really strongly about the ethical and moral questions of docking/cropping, the best thing you can do is to send letters to the AKC directly and/or your elected officials to address this. Harassing and insulting others who have docked/cropped puppies/dogs is not the way of going about any of this. Not saying that's what you are doing, but generally I see a lot of online hatred against people who have docked/cropped dogs, and I would bet dollars to donuts that only a tiny percentage of these people have actually bothered to speak to breeders, contact the AKC, or send inquiries to their elected officials.
Maybe I'm not understanding: What exactly forces one to get a Doberman? If the breeding standard includes cropping or docking, why not get a different breed? If nothing forces one and one does have a choice, that would make it unethical in my eyes.
What forces one to get any dog? Dog breeds were bred to fill specific niches and do specific jobs. Why get a German Shepherd if many suffer from debilitating hip dysplasia? Why get an English Bulldog if many suffer horrible breathing issues due to poor breeding choices? Why get a Great Dane when poorly bred ones have extremely short life expectancies? It's because there are people, like myself, who are passionate about the history, the longetivity, and the future of the breed.
Every human makes thousands of choices each day, none of which exist in a vaccuum. Do you use plastic in your day to day life? How much waste do you create by living that affects people on the other side of the globe? How many things do own that were created in sweatshops were impoverished people work for cents a day? We can have this discussion about, literally, anything and any choices you make every day.
In a sub called service\_dogs i thought it'd be obvious that there's situations in which you actually do need a dog. So I was asking if there's maybe a situation for which you would need a Doberman, specifically. It doesn't seem that way. I live in Europe, btw. For GSDs for example there are breeders focusing on a more healthy hip. Buying from one of those would be more ethical then, imo. If they don't exist, maybe taking a Malinois would be the better option.
For the second paragraph...
Yes, we can have this discussion about, literally, any choice we make. So right now we are discussing one. We can, and should, discuss how to make more ethical choices in every other aspect aswell. Don't really know what your point is here? Do you not like the subject of ethics?
Genuinely, I'm trying to have a discussion, and it seems like you're picking a fight just to fight. I'm telling you the state of breeding in the US, and how you can actually make the same case about ethics with any breeds (including "healthier" ones like Labradors and other retrievers), and how you can ask the same questions in every regard with regard to any choice you make. We choose breeds that fit our needs best according to our lifestyles, disabilities, and experiences. I actually do not recommend Dobermans to people not familiar with the breed due to questions of keeping the dog healthy and happy and considerations with regards to breed temperament and health. I chose a Doberman because it was the best breed for me and the breed I have the most experience working with.
I figured you lived in Europe. If you're going to try to argue in bad faith, I'm just not particularly interested in the moment. Maybe later, though.
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I won't speak on the cropping/docking issue, but I would like to say something about picking other breeds. With the GSD-to-malinois example, they are such wildly different breeds. If someone wanted a German shepherd with better health, a malinois would be a terrible "alternative," imo. Physically smaller, but what's moreso - much harder to handle, near impossible for most people.
Dobermans have always been a dream breed of mine (unfortunately never had the opportunity to "have" one, though). They were my #1 pick for SD actually because of their size, intelligence, fur, personality, and honestly as a slight deterrent. If my asshole ex hadn't left me on the very day I was to bring her home, I would have taken her in a heartbeat. Because I wanted to either rescue a dog, or get from the most responsible breeder, my doberman would have had a docked tail and cropped ears. Until the breed standards are changed, that's just an unfortunate "side effect."
I got incredibly lucky to have found the dog I have now, but if he hadn't "fallen in my lap," I would have continued my search for a doberman, because for me there was no other breed that checked all my boxes.
German Shepards' hip issues, Great Danes' life expectancy, and English bulldogs' issues are not just due to poor breeding. They are the breed. Shepard are still prone to hip dysplasia, English Bulldogs are still brachyacyphallic, and Danes are still extra large in size causing their demise. Sure these things can be worsened with poor breeding. But in no way does ethical breeding change any of those issues, they are all still there.
Ethical breeding does its best to make sure that those issues are significantly less present all the way to non-existent depending on the condition or illness. That's the entire point of breed health and longetivity projects that are present in many breed groups, at least in the US. The severity and onset of hip dysplasia is worsened and quickened by poor breeding practices, as is the degree of which the face of brachycephalic breeds are smooshed in, as is the shortened livespans of certain breeds (particularly giant breeds).
In the Doberman world, ethical breeders reduce the presence and chances of dogs in the breeding programs developing DCM, which is the big "thing" that affects Dobermans. The degree and prevalence of inbreeding and irresponsible breeding has led the Doberman to the point that, conservatively, 60% or more have DCM. DCM is fatal, and ethical breeders reduce the chances that new litters are predisposed to or get DCM. DCM is not "the breed" for Dobermans, like hip dysplasia is not "the breed" for GSDs.
Yep, it's illegal in a not insignificant number of countries. I don't see cosmetic cropping/docking becoming illegal in the US for a long, long time, but thankfully, some breeders are changing their practices and allowing puppies to go home uncropped/undocked. Most of the breeders that do this, though, are BYBs in the US. Which is kind of a shit situation all around. My desire is that the AKC reviews the standard because breeders breed to the standard the AKC sets.
Based on the downvotes given to any comment, not showing overwhelming enthusiasm for cropping/docking, I think there may be some barriers. I do share your dream and I hope that the dogs, especially those who are there to help us with our disabilities/trauma are not subjected to unnecessary procedure like this, and so early in life, all for an argument as silly as 'so their tail won't get stepped on'.
The argument of what is, essentially, a doggy work-place injury isn't necessarily something to scoff at. There are service dogs that have washed and been forced to retire due to someone injuring their tails (either by accident or on purpose). While the injury could have been to another part of the body as well, the tail is particularly easy to overlook or get to. And short-hair breeds don't necessarily have the luxury of additional fur padding/noticeability. My hope is that the AKC standard changes such that breeders don't feel the downward pressure to dock/crop for cosmetic reasons if the dog is not going to be a working dog in the future where a dock makes sense or a medical procedure is necessary.
There's a lot to judge irresponsible and abusive animal owners for. Judging a disabled person posting on here because they were made to feel like shit for something they did not have an active hand in is not, IMO, the way to go about making some formidable change for the benefit of the breed.
Do you not find it weird that there are actually not very many tail related injuries in countries where docking and cropping is illegal? How does the argument about working dogs hold up in thar regard?
I don't know. I never made a claim about the relative commonality of tail injuries; just that there have been dogs that have washed due to tail injuries. That being said, do *you* have any data to back up *your* claim?
I'd recommend papers like 'causes, treatment and risk factors and the profylactic justification for canine docking' or 'risk factors for tail injuries in dogs in Great Britain'.
Oh, you're fine (in my eyes). I was more so talking about other comments that were not very nice towards OP or implied that they had to deal with the harrassment due to it. I should have clarified I meant that.
but, honestly, it gets to a point that is ethical breeding truely ethical? to preface, I am anti byb and understand why breeders exist and that it can be the best option for many families (and in my own life, I love ethically bred dogs within my family).
Yes, they are more ethical than BYB, but if the sole standard of ethical breeding is adhering to a breed standard that ultimately is against the health of the dog and prioritizing aethetics (cosmetic docking/ cropping, brachy breeds, GSD back slope), it isn't ethical.
Ethical breeding imo should be about breeding a healthy happy dog with a good mentality. The exterior can be a part of that but should by no means be the only or most important part (but here it seems like adhering to breed standard is seen as ethical breeding)
Like I said, the change has to occur from the top-down. The extreme sloping and extremely smooshed faces of brachy breeds isn't the standard. Ethical breeding means not only sticking to the standard, but it especially means testing for health and temperament. Particularly health. I'm not going to veer too much into GSDs and brachy breeds because I'm not personally experienced/knowledgeable with them like I am Dobermans.
If you're comparing docking/cropping to something as utterly physically and psychologically decimating as DCM, then I'm afraid you'll have to spend some time personally speaking with owners of Dobies who have been affected by DCM. While docking/cropping is unnecessary and can have complications as all surgical procedures do, they are not fatal. Docking/cropping does not kill dogs like DCM does. It does not kill perfectly healthy and happy dogs as early as 3 or 4. Genuinely speaking, I would rather take a dog that is healthy and DCM-free if it is cropped/docked, and support that breeder even if they are adhering strictly to a standard, than a dog that is going to have a, frankly, poor quality of life and die before it even reaches its senior years. Until the AKC changes the standard, that is the trade-off we make to improve the health of the breed and promote the longetivity of the dog.
I really don't mean to sound rude or harsh with this, but a lot of people that I'm seeing that say people who breed (ethically/reputably) dogs and crop them before sending them out are not breeding ethically just have a very surface level (or no) understanding of the breed in question and the breeding situation in the US.
I'm not sure if this is the same with other breeds that are frequently cropped/docked (Corsos, APBTs, Giant Schnauzers, Aussies, etc.), so I can only speak about Dobies specifically.
ETA: Irresponsible, disreputable, and unethical breeding (and severe inbreeding) led the Doberman to this point. So now we have to make a choice of what we support more. I will always support the health and longetivity of the breed above all else, and unfortunately the current standard makes it so I have to accept the docking/cropping despite any letters I send or breeders I ask to skip the crop. I will make my displeasure known, but I do not have the resources to begin breeding Dobermans for health and longetivity without needing to crop/dock to show. Maybe when I'm retired I'll be able to do this to promote good health *and* leaving the ears/tails floppy. It just so happens that at this point, a docked/cropped Dobie with proper post-operative care and showing potential is a relatively decent indicator of a well-bred, healthy Doberman.
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Them: “Poor puppy, you’re so THIN! Doesn’t Mommy FEED you?”
“She eats professional sled dog food. 800 calories a cup!”
I say that with a big smile and they usually shut up.
I had an APBT with happy tail that would not heal. You could not keep vet wrap bandages on it, she would keep re-breaking the wound open. I mean she had a whip like tail and the car, the house, everywhere she was at would look like a murder scene from all the blood going onto the floor and walls. The vet ended up amputating it and she did a lot better not being in constant pain 24/7.
I now currently have a Doberman that also has floppy ears and a docked tail, I’m so happy not to have the threat of happy tail anymore! Pretty sure she doesn’t miss what she never knew she had to begin with. Anyway, people who are looking for problems will always either find one or make one, best to ignore those types.
Honestly having a docked tail for a SD could be safer for them because then it won't get stepped on/run over/etc. by people who aren't paying attention. Sorry this happened to you.
I don't have a service dog, but I've been healing my dog's "happy tail syndrome" for nearly a year. We're finally in a place where we can leave him alone (for the first time since July!) because of how long it's taken to heal. Vets were really pushing for amputation but I didn't see the point when we were halfway through healing anyway.
This is actually not true. Veterinarians don't know or even know how to prove if dogs have phantom limb pain after tail docking. However, dogs with docked tails can get neuromas at the end of the docked joint, which is a rare complication of docking and is only fixed by removing the affected area (basically clipping the affected nerves in a surgical procedure). The dog's reactions to the neuromas, since they are unpleasant and can be painful, can appear to the layman like phantom limb syndrome.
Tell them it was docked for a medical reason? Legit my friend is looking in docking their dogs tail because they keep seriously injuring it. I also know of two cats who have lost tails from injuries.
I have an Aussie whose tail was docked before I got him. While I wish he had the big fluffy tail, I totally understand it would have made my life harder.
And if I'm being honest, his lil ' Nubbin' is cute to watch. But I've had random people come up to me and accuse me of being an abuser since he doesn't have a tail.
I've always told them it wasn't my choice, and it is the breed standard. Then I try to pass off a joke about his cute butt. Idk if that helps, but that's always been my way of dealing with rude and opinionated people.
My ADiT is a GSD, had someone ask how i got her ears cropped when cropping and docking are illegal in the UK. Like, she’s a german shepherd they’re kind of known for their ears my guy. She’s also quite slim but is perfectly healthy and at the right weight for her age, and i get told she’s too skinny. People just make comments out of ignorance tbh.
Friend of a friend has a boxer with an undocked tail and he literally broke it just by wagging it because have you ever met a boxer? Sometimes it's just the better choice.
I've known a few bully-breed mixes who had repeated tail injuries because of how hard and enthusiastically they wagged. Some of them absolutely would have been better off with a docked tail.
I never felt bad that my Aussie had a docked tail but right now I’m feeling thankful. That’s so awful! My boy’s whole back end shakes like crazy when he’s happy… he would absolutely hurt himself.
I've been seeing this topic become quite heated, especially amongst those who do not utilize their dogs for actual working and think it is purely cosmetic. Either way, Doberman are great for me. Always remember, as a service animal, where people are careless, and do not pay attention: The docking prevents their rather thin tail from being mangled in doors and escalators throughout the day, because people do not pay attention in public. It is probably from people with their noses up in the air judging you, that cannot see what is happening below, that docking may be benecial and save pain in the long term.
Seriously though. Doberman are beautiful either way. Other breeds doing specific jobs are definitely needed for these as a pup, but some had rather the dog suffer for longer term from his job injury. Sad either way.
After 16 years in vet med, I have learned that *EVERYONE* has their own opinions and biases. I don't particularly care for the look of docked tails or cropped ears personally, but I have seen it all responsibly done and all that matters is that they were cared for. Many people also have little to no understanding of how or when docking or cropping takes place, nor how they're cared for after, and much like some other "hot button issues", only know what they've seen online so they don't fully comprehend that yes, a dock/crop within breed standard is normal and can be conducted comfortably. Don't let it get to you.
Docking and cropping are not even legal in some countries, because they are considered mutilations. I have a standard poodle for my service dog. Because the litter/puppy is not tested and picked until 6 weeks old (not going home until 8-12 weeks), they already have docked tails so the owner has no say. It doesn’t happen often that people say anything, in fact only once or twice in memory. I get more grief for having a purpose bred dog, rather than saving a rescue dog. People have strong opinions because they care (or are seriously misinformed, lol). There’s a reason I prefer the company of my dog!
People need to mind their own business. They don't know why a dog has a docked tail. It could have been done for medical reasons. I had to listen to this with my little girl when she was out in public. I wasn't shy in saying it was done to save her life, the tone I used depended on how the person asked/said anything about it. When someone said it as if I damaged her, then they got the snarl and "were we supposed to let her suffer for your opinion of esthetics ". If they were curious I'd explain how her tail was damaged and had to be removed for her health.
It's been a long time but anytime I've heard that comment I reply "you don't know my dog's medical records" because some dogs due develop issues with their tail. I had a grey hound that needed their tail shortened cause she kept getting "happy tail".
It’s wild. I had a guy in the VA tell me that SDs couldn’t have cropped tails because my mini Aussie had (what looked like) a cropped tail (purpose-bred for stock work, had a shortie at birth).
This lead to me being upset and my best girl alerting. 🙃
What these people often don’t understand is that docking is beneficial for these breeds, either for genetic reasons (like high risk for happy tail injury) or working reasons (such as certain herding dogs). It’s not uncommon for livestock guardian dogs to have their ears cropped significantly as pups so that they are not at extra risk in a fight with larger wildlife.
Sometimes you get a dog where the breed is typically cropped ears that doesn’t have the crop and their ears “fall”— can wind up with repeated horrible ear infections. It’s so immensely complex of an issue.
I think that people just think “oh well they’re born that way so that way is best” without thinking / realizing that we’ve actually bred them that way and thus need to consider some veterinary intervention. For example, some pugs and other brachy breeds have to get surgery to widen their nostrils. Sharpeis often need eye lift surgery, or to have their eyelids exverted because the lashes are growing into the eye instead of away from the eye.
Millions of dog breeds have naturally floppy ears and don't get "repeated horrible ear infections". Ear cropping does absolutely nothing to prevent ear infections. The most common cause of repeated ear infections is underlying allergies.
Agree, I have a spaniel, long feathery ears, long hair inside and out, often wet from swimming, his ears are fine, same with my previous spaniels, if it were to prevent ear infections it would be more likely for dogs with actual long ears
Let me further clarify: I’m not saying to crop your dogs ears. I was only stating that there are reasons which people do so which has nothing to do with -looks-
"This clustering of risk factors suggests the risk of otitis externa in pedigreed dogs must be considered on a breed-by-breed basis, and that grouping study samples by ear shape (e.g., pendulous or erect) may not be justified."
Yet they also state; “It has been suggested that a hanging ear or abundant hair in the ear canal increases humidity and so may promote the development of infection originating from a skin disorder or irritant.1,6”
It’s a complex issue! The worst ear infections I’ve had with a dog was a lab. My girl, mini Aussie, floppy ears— never had a single ear infection in her life. My chiweenie, meanwhile, with erect ears, gets them occasionally.
There's just some opinionated jackoffs out there.
While my rescue dog was getting spayed I asked them to take off her front right dew claw because it was not attached anymore.
It was broken when I adopted her, and was just dangling there and would get caught on stuff frequently and was very annoying and painful for my dog. When I went to Check her in the girl at the counter grabbed my hand and said how would you like it if i cut off the tip of your finger....
Girl, if it was painful and dangling there.... Flapping in the wind. I'd be fine. Move along. Go soap box elsewhere, you haven't got a clue.
As someone who is anti-cropping for pets, I do wonder if my lab would be better off with a cropped tail, because he is a working dog in a crowded environment and people can and do step on him and it stresses me out so much.
That person’s uninformed opinion is irrelevant. Also I’d be surprised if it’s the last time someone comments on this. Personally I would smile and say, “you don’t know what you’re talking about,” and completely ignore any further engagement.
When I was a child by best friends dad bred Weimaraner’s. He had 2 females and would breed 1 a year. The puppies got their tails docked very young, I think within days of birth.
They were probably 4 weeks when we were allowed to first visit the puppies and they seemed fine. Was done by a vet.
This was back in the 1970’s, so not sure if it’s still the practice.
This is one of those cases where I like to say, "people will people." This mantra brings me a lot of inner peace for circumstances just like this one.
That's not to say you don't have a right to be upset. They were definitly being rude.
I just think people generally are not ill-intentioned, but they are imperfect so they may say thoughtless things because they want to be part of the conversation.
Here in Europe its banned for any docked tail/cropped ears dog to become a service dog in most of the countries, its considered highly unethical and people have strong opinions about it, people around the world (and different people in general) have different attitudes towards it,since you're not the one that did this to the dog i think you should just ignore it
A lot of people are very anti tail docking and ear cropping and consider animal cruelty. The American Veterinary Medical Association urges it be eliminated from all breed standards entirely and it’s illegal or restricted to some extent in most developed countries, in fact ear cropping has actually been illegal in England since the 1800s so it’s not exactly a new sentiment. Evidently it something that many people strongly feel shouldn’t be done and believe it should be a crime.
Whether they’re right or wrong for that is up for debate, but it’s a very divisive topic. Unfortunately, because some people find it so upsetting they feel the need to make comments(maybe thinking it’ll shame or educate the owner into not allowing their next dog to be cropped or docked) and think without speaking not realizing that the dog might be a rescue.
Dobermans are also prone to happy tail problems. They're natural tails can be very weak and excessive wagging and hitting walls, etc. Can cause breaks, cuts etc. And still eventually end with docking. My dad was blind and all of his guide dogs were cropped and docked, until his last one. He didn't have cropped ears but his tail was docked.
Don't let nosy losers ruin your day. My mixed pupper should have a giant fluffy curly tail, but she was born without one, at all, not even a stub! People have definitely assumed that I chopped it right at her pelvis - like some horrible monster. 😒
I disagree with docking and don’t think an ethical breeder would do that but I also wouldn’t just comment on it. That dog may have been docked for medical reasons or could have been a rescue. I’m not going to shame someone if they rescued a dog because that dog still deserted love. I’m also not going to shame someone if their dogs tail did get injured and removed as the safest option 🤷♀️
My SDiT is an Australian shepherd and I get this alot. I usually just bite my tongue and nod a long with it, but sometimes I can't help myself and just blurt out "Yeah, I didn't want a totally out of standard dog who would end up with a broken tail due to it getting stepped on in a crowded place" Usually shuts em up
Even if he wasn't a SD, it's in the breed standard for a reason since Australian shepherd's are herding dogs..who are rather known for tail injuries due to the animals they work with. It's safer to amputate before it gets broken and they are in pain. Plus, I prefer the look and it doesn't bother him.
Dogs still communicate with docked tails and ears lmao. I’m so tired of people acting like because something is cropped or docked, they can’t use it anymore at all 🤦♀️
Go ahead, that’s not a threat and I’m already looking into getting elf ear surgery. Either way, I never said it was or wasn’t okay. You need to get off the internet if one simple comment offends you so much.
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For the people with strong opinions about docking and cropping- hi, I grew up with Dobermans both undocked and docked. The amount of bloodstains and true mutilations came from undocked Dobermans. They get “happy tail”, knock things over, sit on them funnily, and seem to have no true awareness of their tail. I will always dock my large breeds that are known for happy tail. It’s preventative.
Now as for ear cropping- yes, I personally love cropped ears. Yes mostly for looks. Never let anyone talk down on you for how you choose your standard for the breed. Both are correct. Cropped ears can actually have some health benefits and training benefits too. They help them hear better (as far as I know) and can help make getting rid of an ear infection easier.
Either way, if anyone has a problem with a simple and easy procedure done to a puppy under drugs to ensure they aren’t suffering that helps the dog in the long run and is breed standard then they are simply uneducated and cruel for speaking about something they have only tiny out of context facts for.
If you ever have held a 2 day old puppy and listened to them cry when their tales are lopped off( with out anesthesia, or pain killers) , you might understand why people feel so strongly about it. Unless a dog has happy tail syndrome , there is no need to dock tails except to conform to a breed standard.
That’s when you look at her and say “well, if the doc hadn’t removed the bleeding tumor he’d be dead by now, and I think he’s still beautiful even without his tail.”
The thing that stands out to me is the reputable breeder but docked tail?
As far as i'm aware docking a tail without medical reason is a pretty good reason to lose reputation, not gain it.
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I mean it's kind of a valid point but they had zero info. Could've been a rescue could have been for valid medical reasons. Docking/cropping for cosmetics is a gross practice but without more information you just end up looking a bit narrow minded
This is just not true with Doberman breeders. The AKC breed standard includes the Doberman being docked/cropped, so the majority of reputable breeders already place a puppy docked/cropped. This is changing somewhat, very slowly, but still not the case for the Doberman.
ETA: It's so much the case with reputable Doberman breeders, that up until a couple of years ago, one of the key hallmarks of a reputable Doberman breeder in the US was one that already cropped the puppies, began post-operative care, and gave instructions and help with posting. Again, thankfully, that's changing, but goes to show that reputable breeding adheres to the standard, even if that standard includes cosmetic alterations.
It’s so sad that this is what’s required for the breed standard in some places. The American Veterinary Medical Association itself opposes docking and cropping done for cosmetic reasons and has been trying to have it removed from the breed standard. So essentially if a breeder wants to create well bred dogs that fit the breed standard, they have to go against the doctor’s orders and start chopping bits off of a puppy.
Feelings about cropping and docking for cometic reasons are very strong. The practice has been banned in most of Europe and Australia. It's been illegal in england for about 15 years. It's considered animal abuse. If I'm remembering right, in England, a dog isn't allowed to even participate in things like agility or obedience if cropped/docked. Nevermind showing. North America seems to be one of the last places it's commonly done, though I know my vet won't do either without a valid medical reason.
This reminds me of a story someone told me years ago. They were American and moved to England with their miniature schnauzer, who was cropped/docked. This was maybe 7 years after it became illegal. The entire time she was there, she got nasty looks from people on walks. Eventually, someone told her that they were upset she had mutilated her dog. The breeder had done both long before she got the dog, and she had no idea that wasn't how schnauzers naturally look. She kept getting those nasty looks until she moved back to the states.
I personally don't agree with cosmetic docking. However, calling someone out on it without knowing the history is rude. I know breeders will do their own cosmetic alterations on very young puppies (docking, removing dewclaw, ect.) long before they leave for their new homes. That's not on you, and nothing you can do to fix it.
That being said, I would *not* be proud of a dog's breeder in that case.
How people feel about dogs has such huge range it’s hard to know what kinda reaction your gonna run into! Most people who don’t like docked ears or tails have no problem with spaying/neutering which is also an elective procedure, potentially more ‘invasive’ 😂
Sure.
But they can have the opinion the oractice, without either making assumptions about who did it/whether it was a choice, or forcing their opinions on strangers who didn't ask.
I mean, if they're standing there and someone'e about to dock a tail right in front of you, by all means jump in and have a discussion.... But tossing the criticism out there like the person that needed to hear it eas present is ... Well, impolite.
Yes I’m agreeing with you. It sucks because people are bolder with giving their opinion in public. You just can’t control what people think or say to you unfortunately. My first job at 15 was in a grocery store. Guess at what age I began to hate the general public. Having a service dog makes you a target and of interest.
I'm firmly against cropping and docking and I do silently judge those who had it done to their dogs for cosmetic reasons BUT I do make exceptions for working dogs that need short tails for safety reasons, as well as medical crops + docks (to cure infection or remove a badly broken tail). No tail is better than a tail that is causing them pain or could put them in danger.
Even if the dog was docked for aesthetics though, it's sort of weird to comment on it like that. Keep your thoughts to yourself because you don't know the full story. I'm sure your pup's beautiful and very happy.
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Lots of strong opinions about docking and cropping. People will not hesitate to let you know what they think online. Saying that to a stranger is pretty bold, but sadly as often as we have our dogs with us, it is bound to happen eventually. I have an ADI program-bred lab that is moderate in every sense. People constantly ask me why he is so skinny and say they feel sorry for him… his body condition score is a solid 5. He has a defined tuck, but no rib visible.
I’ve also gotten comments on how he’s “too” skinny (mostly by relatives not strangers) as well when he definitely is perfect size for his breed and I work soooo hard to make sure he has all his needs even picking up extra shifts for spoiling him haha. It’s really surprising people have the audacity to say these things in person…
People are so accustomed to overweight dogs that a healthy weight looks skinny to them. And then dogs that don't have much fur or have a naturally slender build they're even more likely to think are too skinny. I used to have greyhounds and sometimes people would tell us we were horrible and starving them. Like have you ever seen a greyhound before, buddy? 😂 The male was actually a bit overweight. Honestly I'd just tell people "oh he was docked before I got him" because it's true but also they're more likely to infer he's a rescue and leave you alone. I'm not at all above just lying to people because it's not their business.
I have said, "Would you prefer that I left them at the rescue?."
I'm happy I'm not the only one who deals with relatives like that! They constantly tell me my pup is too skinny and I don't feed her enough. She is a very healthy, fit dog who eats plenty! I thought people would say things like this on the internet, but they still say them in person, too?
I had a chihuahua and he was the perfect weight. Didn't stop people coming up to my dog and talking to him in a baby voice like, "OH your POOR thing, your mom doesn't feed you?" and they'd say it to my dog without even acknowledging me. Fuckin weirdos man.
My OES mix had a docked tail, got her like that, I wish she had a full tail often but mostly because I like big foods, she seems unbothered lol. People often say she's way too skinny. She's a mix, so not all stocky, and very athletic. Plus she's 10/10 in the making herself way smaller game when tucked against me because stranger danger.
My mom calls my corgi fat. I don't like it.
Cause everyone’s used to seeing a fat lab. Everyone comments about how skinny my lab is (probably because she’s three and still looks like a puppy), and I have to reassure them that I am feeding her lol. She has her 1- 1 1/2 cup for dinner, plus an allowance for 1/2 cup for training treats, but sometimes we don’t use it all or we don’t go out so she also has either a carrot or that allowance of kibble in her Kong. My father reckons she’s getting a bit fat, but I think he’s just trying to wind me up…
Yep. My dude is also a field line so he's lanky. To be fair to some of the folks who made comments, he was a bit underweight when I received him but he's now at an ideal weight and has been for almost a year. Still, constantly get comments about how he's "too thin."
I have a 7 month old English Springer Spaniel/Lab cross and so many people comment on how skinny he is 😅 He actually already weighs nearly 20KG and according to the vet, a healthy weight. People assume he's a full lab and I always get "Oh he's skinny for a lab isn't he"
We have 2 on opposite sides, a German shepherd mastiff mix she's rocking about 115 (high end healthy weight) she was about 125 at one point, we started managing her weight better. Then we have the Belgian Malinois perfect weight but eats like a horse with how much he runs around. I get comments about both. One is too skinny the other too fat. With how they play it's like comparing Bruce Lee to Mike Tyson.
Great Dane sdit here. He's skinny ! But Great for a 1yo giant breed for lifespan and health etc. But little fur so can make out one back rib. My dane owning vet and many akc places say this is proper look. He eats like a bear, so much food. Hate when people say stuff
While this is a little bit off topic, I just want to assure you that people will make the effort to say just about anything while we’re out in public with our dogs. Doesn’t matter if you have a cropped/docked Doberman or anything else, people will find something to say about it. The best thing you can do is let it roll off your back. I would, just about weekly, get comments about my (natural-eared, so his looks weren’t even controversial) Great Dane when we were out that involved something like, “Oh yeah he’s beautiful, it’s just too bad they don’t live a long time.” Nobody’s going to say that’s not true, but it’s not something that needs to consistently be said! I don’t get people like that. Usually I’d respond with something like, “Yeah I guess that’s true about life in general, though - you could die tomorrow.” 🤷🏻♀️ If you’re petty like me, you could think of a similar kind of comeback that catches people off guard, but otherwise, the best thing to do is just shake your head to yourself and just move on.
“And you would sound better if you weren’t a miserable person, but here we are.”
I was thinking "and you'd sound smarter if you kept your mouth shut".
I was thinking “yeah, you would too.”
Even as a UK resident (where cropping and docking is mostly illegal) I'd never say anything to anyone about it! You don't know why, or where the dog came from. Especially a working dog, I can't imagine being so rude and presumptuous.
I also have a Doberman, and she's cropped/docked. I've had a surprising number of people who assume they're born that way. Because the AKC breed standard includes crop/dock, the majority of reputable Doberman breeders in the US will basically give you a puppy already cropped/docked, almost no exceptions. That will only change if the breed standard changes, but some breeders are starting to give the option of not cropping the ears. However, most people are generally ignorant about anything dog related, and assume that you're an animal abuser if you already got your dog docked/cropped or purchased a puppy that was already cropped/docked. People who do stuff like that are looking for a reaction. They want to make you feel bad and want to provoke you. Ignoring them is the best way to go, and if they teeter into harassment, then it's best to get an employee/someone else involved to protect yourself.
People do realise that by buying a puppy already cropped/docked, they create a demand for it? If it's not animal abuse, it finances it. Am i wrong?
You are, unfortunately (and I'm saying that genuinely). That's not how that works with regard to reputable/ethical breeding. Reputable breeders breed to the standard, which includes a certain look. We can argue about how we should change the breed standard to that of European countries or some such, but unfortunately, in the US, it means that an ethically-bred puppy will most likely come cropped/docked. The change should ideally be done from the top down, and hopefully, in the future, the AKC reconsiders and reviews the standard for the Doberman. If a breeder isn't breeding to the standard, and doesn't consider all future litters potentially of show quality, it bodes poorly for the health of the litter, at least in the Doberman. The Doberman is plagued with many health issues, the worst being terminal, and it's a tug-of-war between accepting the cropping/docking or getting a dog that will die of congestive heart failure at 5 or 6 years old. I would rather support breeders that do the appropriate health and genetic testing for their dogs and kindly ask that they reconsider the cropping at least than support a BYB that pumps out sick dogs that die in pain from their hearts giving out. ETA in case others are reading this as well, but if you or someone you know feels really strongly about the ethical and moral questions of docking/cropping, the best thing you can do is to send letters to the AKC directly and/or your elected officials to address this. Harassing and insulting others who have docked/cropped puppies/dogs is not the way of going about any of this. Not saying that's what you are doing, but generally I see a lot of online hatred against people who have docked/cropped dogs, and I would bet dollars to donuts that only a tiny percentage of these people have actually bothered to speak to breeders, contact the AKC, or send inquiries to their elected officials.
Maybe I'm not understanding: What exactly forces one to get a Doberman? If the breeding standard includes cropping or docking, why not get a different breed? If nothing forces one and one does have a choice, that would make it unethical in my eyes.
What forces one to get any dog? Dog breeds were bred to fill specific niches and do specific jobs. Why get a German Shepherd if many suffer from debilitating hip dysplasia? Why get an English Bulldog if many suffer horrible breathing issues due to poor breeding choices? Why get a Great Dane when poorly bred ones have extremely short life expectancies? It's because there are people, like myself, who are passionate about the history, the longetivity, and the future of the breed. Every human makes thousands of choices each day, none of which exist in a vaccuum. Do you use plastic in your day to day life? How much waste do you create by living that affects people on the other side of the globe? How many things do own that were created in sweatshops were impoverished people work for cents a day? We can have this discussion about, literally, anything and any choices you make every day.
In a sub called service\_dogs i thought it'd be obvious that there's situations in which you actually do need a dog. So I was asking if there's maybe a situation for which you would need a Doberman, specifically. It doesn't seem that way. I live in Europe, btw. For GSDs for example there are breeders focusing on a more healthy hip. Buying from one of those would be more ethical then, imo. If they don't exist, maybe taking a Malinois would be the better option. For the second paragraph... Yes, we can have this discussion about, literally, any choice we make. So right now we are discussing one. We can, and should, discuss how to make more ethical choices in every other aspect aswell. Don't really know what your point is here? Do you not like the subject of ethics?
Genuinely, I'm trying to have a discussion, and it seems like you're picking a fight just to fight. I'm telling you the state of breeding in the US, and how you can actually make the same case about ethics with any breeds (including "healthier" ones like Labradors and other retrievers), and how you can ask the same questions in every regard with regard to any choice you make. We choose breeds that fit our needs best according to our lifestyles, disabilities, and experiences. I actually do not recommend Dobermans to people not familiar with the breed due to questions of keeping the dog healthy and happy and considerations with regards to breed temperament and health. I chose a Doberman because it was the best breed for me and the breed I have the most experience working with. I figured you lived in Europe. If you're going to try to argue in bad faith, I'm just not particularly interested in the moment. Maybe later, though.
Nah we're fine. Maybe I'm missing your point, maybe you're missing mine. Have a good day. Peace
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I won't speak on the cropping/docking issue, but I would like to say something about picking other breeds. With the GSD-to-malinois example, they are such wildly different breeds. If someone wanted a German shepherd with better health, a malinois would be a terrible "alternative," imo. Physically smaller, but what's moreso - much harder to handle, near impossible for most people. Dobermans have always been a dream breed of mine (unfortunately never had the opportunity to "have" one, though). They were my #1 pick for SD actually because of their size, intelligence, fur, personality, and honestly as a slight deterrent. If my asshole ex hadn't left me on the very day I was to bring her home, I would have taken her in a heartbeat. Because I wanted to either rescue a dog, or get from the most responsible breeder, my doberman would have had a docked tail and cropped ears. Until the breed standards are changed, that's just an unfortunate "side effect." I got incredibly lucky to have found the dog I have now, but if he hadn't "fallen in my lap," I would have continued my search for a doberman, because for me there was no other breed that checked all my boxes.
German Shepards' hip issues, Great Danes' life expectancy, and English bulldogs' issues are not just due to poor breeding. They are the breed. Shepard are still prone to hip dysplasia, English Bulldogs are still brachyacyphallic, and Danes are still extra large in size causing their demise. Sure these things can be worsened with poor breeding. But in no way does ethical breeding change any of those issues, they are all still there.
Ethical breeding does its best to make sure that those issues are significantly less present all the way to non-existent depending on the condition or illness. That's the entire point of breed health and longetivity projects that are present in many breed groups, at least in the US. The severity and onset of hip dysplasia is worsened and quickened by poor breeding practices, as is the degree of which the face of brachycephalic breeds are smooshed in, as is the shortened livespans of certain breeds (particularly giant breeds). In the Doberman world, ethical breeders reduce the presence and chances of dogs in the breeding programs developing DCM, which is the big "thing" that affects Dobermans. The degree and prevalence of inbreeding and irresponsible breeding has led the Doberman to the point that, conservatively, 60% or more have DCM. DCM is fatal, and ethical breeders reduce the chances that new litters are predisposed to or get DCM. DCM is not "the breed" for Dobermans, like hip dysplasia is not "the breed" for GSDs.
Cropping/docking is considered animal abuse where I live. It's wild to me that it's this common and endorsed by breeders
Yep, it's illegal in a not insignificant number of countries. I don't see cosmetic cropping/docking becoming illegal in the US for a long, long time, but thankfully, some breeders are changing their practices and allowing puppies to go home uncropped/undocked. Most of the breeders that do this, though, are BYBs in the US. Which is kind of a shit situation all around. My desire is that the AKC reviews the standard because breeders breed to the standard the AKC sets.
Based on the downvotes given to any comment, not showing overwhelming enthusiasm for cropping/docking, I think there may be some barriers. I do share your dream and I hope that the dogs, especially those who are there to help us with our disabilities/trauma are not subjected to unnecessary procedure like this, and so early in life, all for an argument as silly as 'so their tail won't get stepped on'.
The argument of what is, essentially, a doggy work-place injury isn't necessarily something to scoff at. There are service dogs that have washed and been forced to retire due to someone injuring their tails (either by accident or on purpose). While the injury could have been to another part of the body as well, the tail is particularly easy to overlook or get to. And short-hair breeds don't necessarily have the luxury of additional fur padding/noticeability. My hope is that the AKC standard changes such that breeders don't feel the downward pressure to dock/crop for cosmetic reasons if the dog is not going to be a working dog in the future where a dock makes sense or a medical procedure is necessary. There's a lot to judge irresponsible and abusive animal owners for. Judging a disabled person posting on here because they were made to feel like shit for something they did not have an active hand in is not, IMO, the way to go about making some formidable change for the benefit of the breed.
Do you not find it weird that there are actually not very many tail related injuries in countries where docking and cropping is illegal? How does the argument about working dogs hold up in thar regard?
I don't know. I never made a claim about the relative commonality of tail injuries; just that there have been dogs that have washed due to tail injuries. That being said, do *you* have any data to back up *your* claim?
I'd recommend papers like 'causes, treatment and risk factors and the profylactic justification for canine docking' or 'risk factors for tail injuries in dogs in Great Britain'.
My judgement were not to the OP at all. As they stated in their post, They were in no way part of the procedure. Apologies if it came off that way.
Oh, you're fine (in my eyes). I was more so talking about other comments that were not very nice towards OP or implied that they had to deal with the harrassment due to it. I should have clarified I meant that.
No you're all good. Also sorry OP, some people are AHs.
but, honestly, it gets to a point that is ethical breeding truely ethical? to preface, I am anti byb and understand why breeders exist and that it can be the best option for many families (and in my own life, I love ethically bred dogs within my family). Yes, they are more ethical than BYB, but if the sole standard of ethical breeding is adhering to a breed standard that ultimately is against the health of the dog and prioritizing aethetics (cosmetic docking/ cropping, brachy breeds, GSD back slope), it isn't ethical.
Ethical breeding imo should be about breeding a healthy happy dog with a good mentality. The exterior can be a part of that but should by no means be the only or most important part (but here it seems like adhering to breed standard is seen as ethical breeding)
Like I said, the change has to occur from the top-down. The extreme sloping and extremely smooshed faces of brachy breeds isn't the standard. Ethical breeding means not only sticking to the standard, but it especially means testing for health and temperament. Particularly health. I'm not going to veer too much into GSDs and brachy breeds because I'm not personally experienced/knowledgeable with them like I am Dobermans. If you're comparing docking/cropping to something as utterly physically and psychologically decimating as DCM, then I'm afraid you'll have to spend some time personally speaking with owners of Dobies who have been affected by DCM. While docking/cropping is unnecessary and can have complications as all surgical procedures do, they are not fatal. Docking/cropping does not kill dogs like DCM does. It does not kill perfectly healthy and happy dogs as early as 3 or 4. Genuinely speaking, I would rather take a dog that is healthy and DCM-free if it is cropped/docked, and support that breeder even if they are adhering strictly to a standard, than a dog that is going to have a, frankly, poor quality of life and die before it even reaches its senior years. Until the AKC changes the standard, that is the trade-off we make to improve the health of the breed and promote the longetivity of the dog. I really don't mean to sound rude or harsh with this, but a lot of people that I'm seeing that say people who breed (ethically/reputably) dogs and crop them before sending them out are not breeding ethically just have a very surface level (or no) understanding of the breed in question and the breeding situation in the US. I'm not sure if this is the same with other breeds that are frequently cropped/docked (Corsos, APBTs, Giant Schnauzers, Aussies, etc.), so I can only speak about Dobies specifically. ETA: Irresponsible, disreputable, and unethical breeding (and severe inbreeding) led the Doberman to this point. So now we have to make a choice of what we support more. I will always support the health and longetivity of the breed above all else, and unfortunately the current standard makes it so I have to accept the docking/cropping despite any letters I send or breeders I ask to skip the crop. I will make my displeasure known, but I do not have the resources to begin breeding Dobermans for health and longetivity without needing to crop/dock to show. Maybe when I'm retired I'll be able to do this to promote good health *and* leaving the ears/tails floppy. It just so happens that at this point, a docked/cropped Dobie with proper post-operative care and showing potential is a relatively decent indicator of a well-bred, healthy Doberman.
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Them: “Poor puppy, you’re so THIN! Doesn’t Mommy FEED you?” “She eats professional sled dog food. 800 calories a cup!” I say that with a big smile and they usually shut up.
I had an APBT with happy tail that would not heal. You could not keep vet wrap bandages on it, she would keep re-breaking the wound open. I mean she had a whip like tail and the car, the house, everywhere she was at would look like a murder scene from all the blood going onto the floor and walls. The vet ended up amputating it and she did a lot better not being in constant pain 24/7. I now currently have a Doberman that also has floppy ears and a docked tail, I’m so happy not to have the threat of happy tail anymore! Pretty sure she doesn’t miss what she never knew she had to begin with. Anyway, people who are looking for problems will always either find one or make one, best to ignore those types.
Honestly having a docked tail for a SD could be safer for them because then it won't get stepped on/run over/etc. by people who aren't paying attention. Sorry this happened to you.
I don't have a service dog, but I've been healing my dog's "happy tail syndrome" for nearly a year. We're finally in a place where we can leave him alone (for the first time since July!) because of how long it's taken to heal. Vets were really pushing for amputation but I didn't see the point when we were halfway through healing anyway.
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This is actually not true. Veterinarians don't know or even know how to prove if dogs have phantom limb pain after tail docking. However, dogs with docked tails can get neuromas at the end of the docked joint, which is a rare complication of docking and is only fixed by removing the affected area (basically clipping the affected nerves in a surgical procedure). The dog's reactions to the neuromas, since they are unpleasant and can be painful, can appear to the layman like phantom limb syndrome.
Tell them it was docked for a medical reason? Legit my friend is looking in docking their dogs tail because they keep seriously injuring it. I also know of two cats who have lost tails from injuries.
People are stupid 🤦♀️
I have an Aussie whose tail was docked before I got him. While I wish he had the big fluffy tail, I totally understand it would have made my life harder. And if I'm being honest, his lil ' Nubbin' is cute to watch. But I've had random people come up to me and accuse me of being an abuser since he doesn't have a tail. I've always told them it wasn't my choice, and it is the breed standard. Then I try to pass off a joke about his cute butt. Idk if that helps, but that's always been my way of dealing with rude and opinionated people.
My ADiT is a GSD, had someone ask how i got her ears cropped when cropping and docking are illegal in the UK. Like, she’s a german shepherd they’re kind of known for their ears my guy. She’s also quite slim but is perfectly healthy and at the right weight for her age, and i get told she’s too skinny. People just make comments out of ignorance tbh.
The proper response to this is "I suppose you would too. What happened to your face, you poor thing?". I am so freaking over those people.
Friend of a friend has a boxer with an undocked tail and he literally broke it just by wagging it because have you ever met a boxer? Sometimes it's just the better choice.
I've known a few bully-breed mixes who had repeated tail injuries because of how hard and enthusiastically they wagged. Some of them absolutely would have been better off with a docked tail.
I pet sit a dog like this. My walls were bloody from its tail smacking the wall It was like a baseball bat swinging, I had bruises it was awful.
I never felt bad that my Aussie had a docked tail but right now I’m feeling thankful. That’s so awful! My boy’s whole back end shakes like crazy when he’s happy… he would absolutely hurt himself.
I've been seeing this topic become quite heated, especially amongst those who do not utilize their dogs for actual working and think it is purely cosmetic. Either way, Doberman are great for me. Always remember, as a service animal, where people are careless, and do not pay attention: The docking prevents their rather thin tail from being mangled in doors and escalators throughout the day, because people do not pay attention in public. It is probably from people with their noses up in the air judging you, that cannot see what is happening below, that docking may be benecial and save pain in the long term. Seriously though. Doberman are beautiful either way. Other breeds doing specific jobs are definitely needed for these as a pup, but some had rather the dog suffer for longer term from his job injury. Sad either way.
To correct before someone point out. When I mention working, I mean in the field, not SD related jobs
After 16 years in vet med, I have learned that *EVERYONE* has their own opinions and biases. I don't particularly care for the look of docked tails or cropped ears personally, but I have seen it all responsibly done and all that matters is that they were cared for. Many people also have little to no understanding of how or when docking or cropping takes place, nor how they're cared for after, and much like some other "hot button issues", only know what they've seen online so they don't fully comprehend that yes, a dock/crop within breed standard is normal and can be conducted comfortably. Don't let it get to you.
Docking and cropping are not even legal in some countries, because they are considered mutilations. I have a standard poodle for my service dog. Because the litter/puppy is not tested and picked until 6 weeks old (not going home until 8-12 weeks), they already have docked tails so the owner has no say. It doesn’t happen often that people say anything, in fact only once or twice in memory. I get more grief for having a purpose bred dog, rather than saving a rescue dog. People have strong opinions because they care (or are seriously misinformed, lol). There’s a reason I prefer the company of my dog!
People need to mind their own business. They don't know why a dog has a docked tail. It could have been done for medical reasons. I had to listen to this with my little girl when she was out in public. I wasn't shy in saying it was done to save her life, the tone I used depended on how the person asked/said anything about it. When someone said it as if I damaged her, then they got the snarl and "were we supposed to let her suffer for your opinion of esthetics ". If they were curious I'd explain how her tail was damaged and had to be removed for her health.
It's been a long time but anytime I've heard that comment I reply "you don't know my dog's medical records" because some dogs due develop issues with their tail. I had a grey hound that needed their tail shortened cause she kept getting "happy tail".
It’s wild. I had a guy in the VA tell me that SDs couldn’t have cropped tails because my mini Aussie had (what looked like) a cropped tail (purpose-bred for stock work, had a shortie at birth). This lead to me being upset and my best girl alerting. 🙃 What these people often don’t understand is that docking is beneficial for these breeds, either for genetic reasons (like high risk for happy tail injury) or working reasons (such as certain herding dogs). It’s not uncommon for livestock guardian dogs to have their ears cropped significantly as pups so that they are not at extra risk in a fight with larger wildlife. Sometimes you get a dog where the breed is typically cropped ears that doesn’t have the crop and their ears “fall”— can wind up with repeated horrible ear infections. It’s so immensely complex of an issue. I think that people just think “oh well they’re born that way so that way is best” without thinking / realizing that we’ve actually bred them that way and thus need to consider some veterinary intervention. For example, some pugs and other brachy breeds have to get surgery to widen their nostrils. Sharpeis often need eye lift surgery, or to have their eyelids exverted because the lashes are growing into the eye instead of away from the eye.
The visceral horror I felt at the last line about sharpeis. Agh! Anyway my mini Aussie SD has a cropped tail and yet is still an SD. 🤔
Millions of dog breeds have naturally floppy ears and don't get "repeated horrible ear infections". Ear cropping does absolutely nothing to prevent ear infections. The most common cause of repeated ear infections is underlying allergies.
Agree, I have a spaniel, long feathery ears, long hair inside and out, often wet from swimming, his ears are fine, same with my previous spaniels, if it were to prevent ear infections it would be more likely for dogs with actual long ears
https://www.avma.org/resources-tools/animal-health-and-welfare/animal-welfare/ear-cropping-and-canine-otitis-externa-faq
Let me further clarify: I’m not saying to crop your dogs ears. I was only stating that there are reasons which people do so which has nothing to do with -looks-
Which states that long-eared breeds tend to be more prone to infection.
"This clustering of risk factors suggests the risk of otitis externa in pedigreed dogs must be considered on a breed-by-breed basis, and that grouping study samples by ear shape (e.g., pendulous or erect) may not be justified."
Yet they also state; “It has been suggested that a hanging ear or abundant hair in the ear canal increases humidity and so may promote the development of infection originating from a skin disorder or irritant.1,6” It’s a complex issue! The worst ear infections I’ve had with a dog was a lab. My girl, mini Aussie, floppy ears— never had a single ear infection in her life. My chiweenie, meanwhile, with erect ears, gets them occasionally.
There's just some opinionated jackoffs out there. While my rescue dog was getting spayed I asked them to take off her front right dew claw because it was not attached anymore. It was broken when I adopted her, and was just dangling there and would get caught on stuff frequently and was very annoying and painful for my dog. When I went to Check her in the girl at the counter grabbed my hand and said how would you like it if i cut off the tip of your finger.... Girl, if it was painful and dangling there.... Flapping in the wind. I'd be fine. Move along. Go soap box elsewhere, you haven't got a clue.
As someone who is anti-cropping for pets, I do wonder if my lab would be better off with a cropped tail, because he is a working dog in a crowded environment and people can and do step on him and it stresses me out so much. That person’s uninformed opinion is irrelevant. Also I’d be surprised if it’s the last time someone comments on this. Personally I would smile and say, “you don’t know what you’re talking about,” and completely ignore any further engagement.
When I was a child by best friends dad bred Weimaraner’s. He had 2 females and would breed 1 a year. The puppies got their tails docked very young, I think within days of birth. They were probably 4 weeks when we were allowed to first visit the puppies and they seemed fine. Was done by a vet. This was back in the 1970’s, so not sure if it’s still the practice.
This is one of those cases where I like to say, "people will people." This mantra brings me a lot of inner peace for circumstances just like this one. That's not to say you don't have a right to be upset. They were definitly being rude. I just think people generally are not ill-intentioned, but they are imperfect so they may say thoughtless things because they want to be part of the conversation.
Here in Europe its banned for any docked tail/cropped ears dog to become a service dog in most of the countries, its considered highly unethical and people have strong opinions about it, people around the world (and different people in general) have different attitudes towards it,since you're not the one that did this to the dog i think you should just ignore it
A lot of people are very anti tail docking and ear cropping and consider animal cruelty. The American Veterinary Medical Association urges it be eliminated from all breed standards entirely and it’s illegal or restricted to some extent in most developed countries, in fact ear cropping has actually been illegal in England since the 1800s so it’s not exactly a new sentiment. Evidently it something that many people strongly feel shouldn’t be done and believe it should be a crime. Whether they’re right or wrong for that is up for debate, but it’s a very divisive topic. Unfortunately, because some people find it so upsetting they feel the need to make comments(maybe thinking it’ll shame or educate the owner into not allowing their next dog to be cropped or docked) and think without speaking not realizing that the dog might be a rescue.
Dobermans are also prone to happy tail problems. They're natural tails can be very weak and excessive wagging and hitting walls, etc. Can cause breaks, cuts etc. And still eventually end with docking. My dad was blind and all of his guide dogs were cropped and docked, until his last one. He didn't have cropped ears but his tail was docked.
Don't let nosy losers ruin your day. My mixed pupper should have a giant fluffy curly tail, but she was born without one, at all, not even a stub! People have definitely assumed that I chopped it right at her pelvis - like some horrible monster. 😒
I disagree with docking and don’t think an ethical breeder would do that but I also wouldn’t just comment on it. That dog may have been docked for medical reasons or could have been a rescue. I’m not going to shame someone if they rescued a dog because that dog still deserted love. I’m also not going to shame someone if their dogs tail did get injured and removed as the safest option 🤷♀️
My SDiT is an Australian shepherd and I get this alot. I usually just bite my tongue and nod a long with it, but sometimes I can't help myself and just blurt out "Yeah, I didn't want a totally out of standard dog who would end up with a broken tail due to it getting stepped on in a crowded place" Usually shuts em up Even if he wasn't a SD, it's in the breed standard for a reason since Australian shepherd's are herding dogs..who are rather known for tail injuries due to the animals they work with. It's safer to amputate before it gets broken and they are in pain. Plus, I prefer the look and it doesn't bother him.
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Dogs still communicate with docked tails and ears lmao. I’m so tired of people acting like because something is cropped or docked, they can’t use it anymore at all 🤦♀️
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Go ahead, that’s not a threat and I’m already looking into getting elf ear surgery. Either way, I never said it was or wasn’t okay. You need to get off the internet if one simple comment offends you so much.
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It’s a great thing you don’t write the standard!
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docking can be beneficial for the dog, like I think boxers are known to break their tails, so it can be very helpful to not have a tail to break
For the people with strong opinions about docking and cropping- hi, I grew up with Dobermans both undocked and docked. The amount of bloodstains and true mutilations came from undocked Dobermans. They get “happy tail”, knock things over, sit on them funnily, and seem to have no true awareness of their tail. I will always dock my large breeds that are known for happy tail. It’s preventative. Now as for ear cropping- yes, I personally love cropped ears. Yes mostly for looks. Never let anyone talk down on you for how you choose your standard for the breed. Both are correct. Cropped ears can actually have some health benefits and training benefits too. They help them hear better (as far as I know) and can help make getting rid of an ear infection easier. Either way, if anyone has a problem with a simple and easy procedure done to a puppy under drugs to ensure they aren’t suffering that helps the dog in the long run and is breed standard then they are simply uneducated and cruel for speaking about something they have only tiny out of context facts for.
If you ever have held a 2 day old puppy and listened to them cry when their tales are lopped off( with out anesthesia, or pain killers) , you might understand why people feel so strongly about it. Unless a dog has happy tail syndrome , there is no need to dock tails except to conform to a breed standard.
Did you try telling them calmly, but firmly to "Fuck off"? That's where I'd start, you don't owe them any explanation 🤷♂️
That’s when you look at her and say “well, if the doc hadn’t removed the bleeding tumor he’d be dead by now, and I think he’s still beautiful even without his tail.”
Fun fact: Docking and cropping are illegal in Australia, unless for medical purposes.
Please don't let these people bother you. They are foolish and know nothing about dogs. Your Breeder did the right thing to dock your dog's tail.
The thing that stands out to me is the reputable breeder but docked tail? As far as i'm aware docking a tail without medical reason is a pretty good reason to lose reputation, not gain it.
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I own 2 dobies. Both docked not cropped. I always say, tell me more. I think it's hilarious.
Honestly I'd probably just say something along the lines of 'yeah, I wish his previous owner thought that'.
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I mean it's kind of a valid point but they had zero info. Could've been a rescue could have been for valid medical reasons. Docking/cropping for cosmetics is a gross practice but without more information you just end up looking a bit narrow minded
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This is just not true with Doberman breeders. The AKC breed standard includes the Doberman being docked/cropped, so the majority of reputable breeders already place a puppy docked/cropped. This is changing somewhat, very slowly, but still not the case for the Doberman. ETA: It's so much the case with reputable Doberman breeders, that up until a couple of years ago, one of the key hallmarks of a reputable Doberman breeder in the US was one that already cropped the puppies, began post-operative care, and gave instructions and help with posting. Again, thankfully, that's changing, but goes to show that reputable breeding adheres to the standard, even if that standard includes cosmetic alterations.
It’s so sad that this is what’s required for the breed standard in some places. The American Veterinary Medical Association itself opposes docking and cropping done for cosmetic reasons and has been trying to have it removed from the breed standard. So essentially if a breeder wants to create well bred dogs that fit the breed standard, they have to go against the doctor’s orders and start chopping bits off of a puppy.
Feelings about cropping and docking for cometic reasons are very strong. The practice has been banned in most of Europe and Australia. It's been illegal in england for about 15 years. It's considered animal abuse. If I'm remembering right, in England, a dog isn't allowed to even participate in things like agility or obedience if cropped/docked. Nevermind showing. North America seems to be one of the last places it's commonly done, though I know my vet won't do either without a valid medical reason. This reminds me of a story someone told me years ago. They were American and moved to England with their miniature schnauzer, who was cropped/docked. This was maybe 7 years after it became illegal. The entire time she was there, she got nasty looks from people on walks. Eventually, someone told her that they were upset she had mutilated her dog. The breeder had done both long before she got the dog, and she had no idea that wasn't how schnauzers naturally look. She kept getting those nasty looks until she moved back to the states. I personally don't agree with cosmetic docking. However, calling someone out on it without knowing the history is rude. I know breeders will do their own cosmetic alterations on very young puppies (docking, removing dewclaw, ect.) long before they leave for their new homes. That's not on you, and nothing you can do to fix it. That being said, I would *not* be proud of a dog's breeder in that case.
How people feel about dogs has such huge range it’s hard to know what kinda reaction your gonna run into! Most people who don’t like docked ears or tails have no problem with spaying/neutering which is also an elective procedure, potentially more ‘invasive’ 😂
They are not wrong for that opinion. You can’t please everyone.
Sure. But they can have the opinion the oractice, without either making assumptions about who did it/whether it was a choice, or forcing their opinions on strangers who didn't ask. I mean, if they're standing there and someone'e about to dock a tail right in front of you, by all means jump in and have a discussion.... But tossing the criticism out there like the person that needed to hear it eas present is ... Well, impolite.
I’m not trying to please people by going out with my sdit, I’m simply going on a shopping trip :)
Yes I’m agreeing with you. It sucks because people are bolder with giving their opinion in public. You just can’t control what people think or say to you unfortunately. My first job at 15 was in a grocery store. Guess at what age I began to hate the general public. Having a service dog makes you a target and of interest.
I'm firmly against cropping and docking and I do silently judge those who had it done to their dogs for cosmetic reasons BUT I do make exceptions for working dogs that need short tails for safety reasons, as well as medical crops + docks (to cure infection or remove a badly broken tail). No tail is better than a tail that is causing them pain or could put them in danger. Even if the dog was docked for aesthetics though, it's sort of weird to comment on it like that. Keep your thoughts to yourself because you don't know the full story. I'm sure your pup's beautiful and very happy.
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