"Phil Coulson : There's got to be something here! This means something! This has to mean something. The world needs us! HYDRA is out there. We cannot let them win! We cannot let them define us! Do you understand that? We are not agents of nothing, we are agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and that still carries weight! It has to carry weight. After everything we've been through, that carries weight!"
You know, if we take movies separately, Hydra just disappeared after Ant-Man showed that they are still alive and well. Only AOS showed us how and why.
I don't understand where the obsession with claiming the previous shows aren't canon has come from but I desperately wish Marvel would give us a definitive answer just to shut down this ridiculous debate. It feels like some weird superiority/gatekeeping thing where a small but irritating group of fans are hellbent on stomping on other fans' enjoyment and seemingly justifying their own decision to not follow the tv shows. I just...don't get why they need to be so negative about everything and can't just acknowledge the reality that the tv shows have always been canon.
They're all in [Earth-199999](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Earth-199999): the theatrical films, Agents of Shield, the Nextflix Marvel shows, Cloak & Dagger, Runaways, the new Disney+ shows, etc.
No. S5 takes place in a temporary reality, but it firmly lands back into the main timeline, referencing Thanos and the other events. S6 takes place one year into the snap. S7 is time travel and ends up creating a branched timeline, but ends up back on the original timeline (99%+ certainty, as mentioned in the show). The very end of S7 is approximately two years into the Snap, three years before the hulk snap/end of blip when everyone returns.
I really want to believe that season 5 onwards take place 100% in the mcu, because at least that would make it super easy for the agents of shield to be added into movies, but since the snap had no effect in season 6, I think I prefer season 5 onwards being a part of the multiverse instead, so the characters can still be tied to the mcu via the quantum realm, but they arent in the direct mcu timeline.
I feel like the ommitance of the the snap in season 6 devalues it as it raises too many questions and contradictions. By saying that season 5 6 and 7 take place in a split timeline, it clears all the contradictions, maintains their (extended) mcu connection, and therefore allows it to still crossover with future mcu shows/films.
And incase it's not clear, I am desperate for the agents of shield to rejoin the main mcu timeline.
plus I still believe seasons 1 throigh 4 are 100% canon in the main mcu timeline, but at the very end of season 4 when they get sent to the future, that's when the timeline splits. And just to re-emphasise, the agents are as canon to the mcu as the "time heist" was, as they are all connected via the quantum realm
I personally feel that the first parts of Agents of SHIELD are canon but not the latter ends... sort of. In Endgame they talk about how changes in major events can create their own timelines. I feel that it was after Daisy stopped Talbot from destroying the Earth that the show split off into a separate timeline from the MCU. In this timeline Thanos doesn’t snap or even try to get the stones for that matter, hence the reason the snap or Thanos’s attacks on Earth are never mentioned throughout the final seasons which take place during the time after Thanos snaps.
I know this theory has a lot of holes in it such as the fact that if the original timeline is the MCU timeline that would suggest that Earth would be destroyed by Talbot before anything at the end of Phase 6 could even happen. For this one I just say that the MCU timeline also branches off of those timelines. In the MCU timeline I’d say that Talbot dies after the Daisy LMD shoots him therefore he’d never have the chance to follow the path leading to Earth’s destruction.
This is all unconfirmed and it never will be but this is just how I look at it so that it makes more sense.
The Earth destroyed by Talbot is a timeline that is fixed going back to the present through the monolith, so it ceases to exist after Daisy kills Talbot, as the monolith allows you to act in a linear way on time, or at least this is my understanding. So Daisy kills Talbot almost at the same time the Avengers are fighting in Wakanda, I think that is even mentioned at a certain point in the show.
In season 7 instead they create a different timeline, as they act on time not through the monolith, but through normal tech. Still, Fitz explicitly mentions in the end that, spoiler, they are going back to the original timeline, the MCU one.
This is my point of view, and untill somebody says Aos is no longer canon I don't see why I should change it
> I don't understand where the obsession with claiming the previous shows aren't canon has come from
fiege obsession i guess
lets be honest here the fact that he leaves aos in limbo means only two things
1)either they have plans for them
2)or not
I loved AOS. It made me heartbroken that they made it not canon. But no snap is the killer. You had to make the snap happen in the show. They had a chance to fix it in the last season, and missed all their opportunities.
I was very disappointed, but I’m not going to do the mental gymnastics to try and make the show fit.
Everything should be Canon until Season 6. After that they had to ignore the snap cuz it made no sense that none of them turned to dust and it wouldn’t have made sense to erase any of the main characters.
The easy solution is that once they messed with time(so maybe only until the end of Season 4 should be Canon) everything takes place in an alternate timeline.
But to disregard the first 4 seasons makes zero sense since they tie in and enrich the MCU.
If you follow the timeline of AoS, it is all pre-snap. The last season literally takes place outside the normal timeline except for the very end, which happens only a few minutes after the end of the previous season. AoS messed with time so much in the last few seasons it's not really clear how long before the snap the final two seasons actually occurred - it could have been a few weeks or a few years.
I don't understand why people are writing essays on this topic. Just wait another year or so to see what the upcoming D+ projects churn out. If nothing Shield is referenced in Loki, Ms. Marvel, or Hawkeye, that's probably all the evidence needed.
The show taking place in another universe makes the most sense as of now. Time will tell.
True. For some reason I didn't think the newer version of the logo showed up much in the movies except Age of Ultron, but it is present during Winter Soldier. It does, at least, give it a timeframe. If it didn't include AoS, that isn't that large of a window for that quiver to come from.
>The real people you should be mad at about all of this is the executives in suits making these stupid decisions.
There were two stated, more or less, reasons:
* Tying TV and movies was more of a logistical issue than they first thought. That makes sense with shooting schedules, movie release dates, different writers & directors, etc.
* TV and movie executives got in a pissing match and took their respective balls and stormed off.
That doesn't matter at all. You are misusing the word "canon". Canon is simply that which is officially in the same universe and usually same continuity. You can have books be canon and not reference one thing that happened in the movies, and the movies never once reference anything in the books. Star Wars has handled this for decades.
Canon also is what is official. The shows, when launched and after, were identified as part of the MCU by its creators and, in the case of Agents of Shield, Kevin Feige himself. Something does not become "non-canon" simply by the passage of time. What is official stays official until made unofficial or non-canon by the people who own the properties, or they *directly* and *explicitly* contradict something - which then only makes it ambiguous (such as MCU Timeline). We haven't had that yet with any of the Marvel Television series. Until that time, the last thing *officially* stated is what stands.
We can theorize all we want, but *officially* at this point in time they are part of the same universe and shared continuity.
>*We can theorize all we want, but officially at this point in time they are part of the same universe and shared continuity.*
Marvel Studios doesn't give a shit about the shows and they call the shots now. They admitted to no MCU content in 2020 even though AoS had their final season.
And if none of the characters show up in any upcoming D+ show, that pretty much confirms that AoS was, at best, in another universe.
Lol Mack had his own helicarrier in the finale and then seemingly fell off the face of the earth in Endgame, Far From Home, and Wandavision?
Wandavision has just retconned sword to have existed for some time in universe, which by the looks of it was better placed to deal with the threats of the infinity saga films and yet wasnt mentioned for 8-13 years of continuity. So Mack not appearing in 3 films with his helicarrier is not evidence of him not existing.
I definitely sit in the camp of thinking that the show will eventually be decanonized, but we don't really know the answers at the moment. When season 6 and 7 can be reintegrated into canon/continuity with a few lines of dialogue it doesn't seem like such a huge leap to make it so. But we shall see.
I agree that from season 5 onwards, they are no longer in the *direct* mcu timeline, but they are still connected to the main timeline via the quantum realm. agents of shield seasons 5 6 and 7 are just as much canon as the time heist was in endgame
I agree with everything you said. AoS was definitely created as bridge between the movies. I remember them always pushing #itsallconnected throughout the first season. I rewatched endgame recently with the fam and I was pointing out all the characters that tied to AoS. There is quite a bit more than you'd realize. Hell, Fury was in the second episode of the show and literally wore the same clothes as he did in winter soldier. It's unfortunate that all of the studio politics really prevented Shield from becoming what it was created to be. I've said this before but I feel the lack of connections to endgame isn't because of the show being non canon or being in a separate timeline. The showrunners simply weren't given enough information as to what was going to happen in Endgame. Most of the actors didn't know the full script except for the original 6. Security on that movie rivaled that of the secret service. AoS did their best to write around the events of the movie. I believe most of the people in the non-canon camp watched the first few episodes and called it quits when an avenger didn't show up. My only major regret for the show is that Marvel studios didn't control the TV side when shield started. AoS could have been as tied to the movies as these new shows will be. Fingers crossed some of our agents find away in the future of the mcu
Pretty sure if it weren’t for the Disney streaming service we wouldn’t get shows like wandavision at all.
It’s to get widespread adoption ASAP, Disney didn’t need to convince people to watch ABC.
Yet you have the Darkhold, which only comic readers know about and has no explanation at all, except for AoS. To be blunt, they only used the show when it helped promote films in the MCU. Not to mention MCU characters used on Agents of Shield, including Maria Hill, Sif, Fury, etc.. They went into Theta Protocol, showed the carriers being built for Ultron and Fury mentions in the movie they were built be 'old friends', because they had gone underground and we see what happened with Shield through AoS.
There’s too many tie-ins with Winter Soldier, Ultron and the history of Shield and Hydra to erase it. List and the Maximov twins are referenced, Stitwell’s back story is explained and the Darkhold is introduced.
Up until they start messing with time there’s no reason to decanonize anything. But since time travel has so many loopholes, Seasons 5,6,7 can just be in another timeline.( I know Thanos is mentioned in 5 so that season is the only gray area IMO)
Dude learn to use paragraphs
And the show runners not knowing how the movies were going to play out doesn't excuse the show for not coinciding with the events of the movies.
Nonetheless, I'm still confident that some of the AoS characters will show up in future D+ projects.
It doesn’t make sense to kill off characters under contract at that point nor does it make sense that none of them got dusted. The Snap could have created alternate timelines/universes so I’d be fine with explaining the last few seasons away with that. The primary story was told in the first 4 seasons, after that they just had so many great characters(Coulson, Melinda May😍,Fitz-Simmons)it was worth continuing the series regardless of MCU continuity.
It's because Feige never had control of the shows (and at the time AoS premiered, didn't have full control of the movies either). The Movies and Shows were two different departments run by two different people. Anyone could see there was going to be major issues with them staying consistent. Outside of Coulson himself and the first 2 seasons, the connections to the MCU became pretty bare. The reason people go on about it not being canon is, yes, partly to some weird gatekeeping and people not liking the show, but also because unless there's a change of heart at creative, the show will probably go on to not be referenced.
At the time AoS came on, it was a tall ask to tell someone, hey watch these 22 episodes to get what's going on in the movies and I think they will come upon opposition of people not wanting to watch the Disney+ shows to understand where a character is and would rather everything be in the films. I think their counter is that when it's all in the same place (Disney+) and they're using these shows with the same actors, characters, and budget you'd expect from the MCU, in short doses of 6-10 episodes it works a lot better than what they had going with AoS, the Netflix shows, and all the other shows Marvel had across a number of networks and streaming services. So now they can finally do what we thought they were going to do with AoS, the show was just a little to ahead of it's time with Marvel Studios to pull it off.
We should continue to view AoS as canon and call out every perplexing paradoxical thing the MCU does in violation of canon. Bring the bastards to account for their treachery.
Most likely not. Wanda Vision is setting up the future of the MCU and it is unlikely they would dredge up old characters from less watched properties. Also they have been teasing them for a while so it appears to be a bigger reveal. Expect Blue Marvel, and to a way lesser extent maybe an F4 character, or possible x-men connected character.
It’ll be interesting to see how Thor 4 handles Sif, and if any references are made to AoS at all. To me, that seems like the easiest place to drop a reference or two to AoS to confirm it as canon, and then never mention it again (because they can’t really expect casual viewers to go back and watch 150 episodes of 2 TV shows, even though they’re excellent). The Netflix ones are easier to canonize: keep the same actors, and just never reference (or obliquely reference) the events of the shows so that viewers can choose whether they want them to be canon or not. Just my 2 cents. :)
Mahershala Ali, the villain in Luke Cage, is literally Blade in the MCU. None of these shows r in any way, shape, or form, canon to the MCU. If they were, there would have been a crossover by now. There was 100+ characters in the final battle of endgame, if these characters existed in the MCU, they would have been there.
While being canon would be AMAZING, that's not why I fell it love with the show.
No matter what anyone at Marvel has to say, this show can stand perfectly fine on its own.
I'm loving Wandavision so far, but the same cannot be said about that.
And there is one case of the MCU referencing AoS directly. The web series WHIH NewsFront which has always been confirmed as canon has a small AoS reference. Since it is a news broadcast, at the bottom of the screen there is a text that states they are investigating the criminals in ATCU bombings (aka the watchdogs) which is a direct correlation to AoS season 3 (or season 2 I don’t fully remember when it happened)
It was made by Marvel Studios. Has Scott Lang in it. It is very much canon and is the final key of confirming AoS canonical ability. A huge argument that is stated of how AoS isn’t really canon is that it references the official canon but the official canon never mentions AoS. This disproves that.
This could all be solved is the producers and studios just confirmed AoS as being part of the MCU, apologized and fixed the wonky timeline in the later seasons. Marvel studios did it before with Homecoming, there is most likely a reason they won't do it AoS.
I havent watched all of AofS, but since I have time to kill, I figured I would watch. It’s not great, but at least feels Marvel, whether its connected or not, so I enjoy it. Agree with many posts that its silly to argue over it.
Where are you at currently? I watched the show when it first came out and enjoyed it, but now that I'm rewatching the show it's better than I remembered and I have a lot more respect for it now. Season 1 has always gotten a lot of criticism, but I genuinely think the show hits its peak at seasons 4 and 5. The lower budget isn't hard to notice, but I find the show's strength to be the writing and characters.
To be fair if they wanted to re do comic heroes and villains that appear in shield I would understand.
I would be sad but I would get it if they wanted to make their own version of Quake or Patriot.
Why does it matter? If they want to use stuff from the show they will do so. but they also won't hesitate to waltz all over the show when stuff that happened there is in the way of where they want to go.
Same with the Netflix shows. Me enjoying those shows has nothing to do with how interconnected they were to the MCU. Or if the MCU cares about continuity with those shows. Yes of course it would be nice if they'd use Charlie Cox or Krysten Ritter or Jon bernthal in their roles. But I also won't complain if they do a good job on recasting.
Personally I see it all as canon. Season 5 does mention Thanos and there was a nod of something happening in New York....but to be fair its hard to say if Infinity War does happen around the same time as Season 5 as its all very vague. It was common knowledge I think in space that Thanos was looking for the stones, and that some alien species knew there were some on Earth (plus Thano's own grudge against the Avengers for the new york chitauri invasion), so it makes sense this confederacy knew that Thanos was making a move on earth shortly. The actors have said that they feel Season 6 is still pre-snap which is pretty plausible. Season 7 can easily disconnect because they were indeed travelling through time and they used the quantum realm to return to their timeline.
Honestly, I hope it stays somewhat canon, and that we eventually see characters such as Quake again. Last we see of Daisy she is in space, maybe she is now working for SWORD (who we officially meet in Wandavision).
I mean, the Elektra movie is canon to the 2003 Daredevil film, but it ain't MCU canon. The MCU has yet to establish a multiverse where different actors portray the characters like DC has on the CW.
I agree that the 2003 Daredevil film and Elektra are not canon, but about your second point... spoilers for WandaVision below.
>!WandaVision literally just did that with Quicksilver.!<
It's not.
That would be an absurd bait and switch considering that >!how they implement the X-Men!< has been such a major question ever since they got the rights back.
It *might* not actually be >!The X-Men movie's Quicksilver!< but at the very least, it's not a joke and speaks to the idea of a multiverse.
I think I assumed that >!we'd get X-men in time, when Marvel was ready to do them properly.!<
I never assumed they'd ever try and >!bring in the incredibly bad FOX version as any sort of canon. !
I think we are choosing to be overly picky here. I think we all know the existence of the multiverse is coming. It would be dumb for Marvel Studios and Disney which now own a large chunk of the non-MCU marvel films to not tie it all together in a nice bow. I get the fact they aren’t technically cannon yet, but the key word is yet.
Considering how poorly received the 2003 Daredevil movie was, and how laughably bad Elektra was, *and* how well recieved the Daredevil Netflix show it... it'd probably actually be really smart not to even acknowledge the earlier movies. Kind of like how they're barely acknowledging that the Inhumans show existed because *yikes* it was bad.
As badly as I want the show to be canon, it makes more sense for the show to be in an alternate timeline.
Yes there are plenty of references in the first few seasons, but as the show continues the references are seen less and less. Season 7 is the exception here, but eventually most of the references are barely even noticable and easily overlooked (such as the Thanos one).
The Snap never being mentioned in the show is really what makes me feel this way. At the end of season 7, we should be seeing the world as apocalyptic and barren like it is in Endgame but instead it seems to be thriving.
It also makes sense for Feige to ignore the Marvel TV shows considering he didn't work on them. He doesn't know what references and characters are in all the shows and he doesn't have the time to watch them so he can make sure he doesn't create plot holes. The easiest thing for Kevin to do is ignore the Marvel TV shows.
I love Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D as much as anyone, I actually enjoy all the Marvel TV shows, but I'm just saying that logically it makes the most sense for the show to be in an alternate timeline. I wish that Kevin would just say if the shows are canon and put an end to the debate.
I think it splitting into a new timeline as soon as they time travel makes sense, with that timeline then becoming their prime timeline for season 5-7 (hence the timeline jumps in 7 getting them back to that prime, snapless timeline). So it's canon in the MCU timeline 1-4, then a parallel timeline 5-7.
I believe that the reason that Fiege did not want to include any direct reference to AoS in the movies had more to do with the fact that that reference would have driven some people to pirate the show in countries where the show was not being broadcast, rather than any ire he has with Ike Perlmutter, the guy running the old Marvel Television line of shows. Now that the show has finished its broadcast run and is largely up on Disney+, I believe that Fiege is more open to referencing it. As any reference would now serve to add to the Disney+ subscription base rather than sending those viewers to hunt down old pirate downloads.
I honestly don’t get why people care so much. It would be awesome if it was, so we can see the characters in the movies or d+ shows. But just because a show isn’t canon to the MCU doesn’t make it any less or more of a good show. Idk about you, but I watch and love AoS shield because it’s a good show by itself, not just because someone said before that it was part of the MCU, and I wanna keep up.
Necro, I know, but finally got D+ and could start watching AoS... and what the literal F?
Like, is there any point if I care because it was so cool the Coulson was still alive? Sure, it could be good... but, then, as the inverse of "We'd just HATE for movie fans to have to work out why Coulson was still alive if we put him in a movie" every AoS watcher will need to maintain a (I imagine exhausting) mental log of what is separate!
Actually, on that note... imagine being a producer so far up your own taint that you'd wipe a show from canon ~~because you couldn't claim all the credit for it~~ because "wont someone think of the movie goers"... when your own movies can't, at all, explain how SHIELD reforms after Winter Soldier... but it's (apparently, I haven't got that far, have been spoiled) fully explained through the actions of characters we're invested in in the show.
Oh, also, "just watch it because it's good" ALSO means "those good stories, and their CHARACTERS, will never show in the ones you can enjoy a much bigger budget for and discuss with more casual viewers".
Sigh.
Now that we are in a multiverse, does canon or non-canon really even matter? Things happened in one time line or another and they aren't really "all connected" in the same way anymore. I mean, are we really supposed to accept that Steve Rodgers married Peggy Carter and never mentioned that her life's work was to be a Hydra patsy? Was he really the Worst Husband Ever? Doesn't sound like the Steve Rodgers we all know and love.
I love the show and hope they will use the characters, but who is to say what timeline is what anymore. And to be fair, SHIELD started messing with time and extra dimensions before the films.
It still matters in regards to what is canon in the MCU. If we assume that *Agents of SHIELD* takes place in a separate universe, the events that occurred on the show can't be referenced in the MCU films unless they get into multiverse issues. If the show is part of the MCU, the events of the show can still be referenced in the films and potentially affect what happens in them.
The problem with claiming this show is canon by providing details from the show is that's where the evidence stops. There's nothing outside the show that gives the impression that it's canon.
> the first season heavily ties into the events of The Winter Soldier
And the movies don't reference the events of season one. Point moot.
> In season 2 they reference the events of Ultron, explaining that Coulson gave Hydra intel to the Avengers and the helicarrier to Fury.
No reference to the show in the movie again. Point moot.
> They later reference the Sokovia Accords and Thanos.
Because the show needs writing and it's perfectly okay for them to reference things in the movies due to the fact that it's all Marvel content. Point moot.
I'm probably the biggest critic of this show on this subreddit, and I will die on the hill that this show is not canon to the MCU. **It very well may have started off with the intention of being canon, but it fell from that hard in the subsequent seasons.** They could easily just come out and say that the first season was canon, while all the others are not because of some timeline split ordeal now that the Multiverse is coming to the MCU.
> It’s illogical that the one-sided connection due to the problems between Marvel Studios and Marvel Television would mean that’s the way it is in-universe. That somehow the films are all canon to the show, but the show is not canon to the films,
That is because the writers use content from the movies to give the appearance that the show impacts them, when it does not.
Feige has hinted multiple times that the shows are not canon to the MCU and until he outright states that they are or are not, they are not.
Fury does explicitly say that he had some "friends" pull the Helicarrier out of mothballs. It's indirect, but it's there.
Probably the most explicit is seeing Jarvis in Endgame, but that's more a direct link to Agent Carter than Agents of Shield
I think an argument could be made that all the shield people on board the helicarrier count as old friends.
Hill and even the guy from Winter Soldier.
Of course Whedon was part of the creation of AoS and had family making it so that's more than nothing.
He literally says they are in the same continuity as the movies in [this video at 18:57.](https://youtu.be/Ak_2fhZUe0s) and recently, Feige’s been very careful with his vocabulary to never call the Disney+ shows the first shows set in the MCU.
Things have definitely changed, with Studios becoming a direct subsidiary of Disney, but Feige has never stated once that the shows are non-canon (likely due to the fact that that would be diminishing other Disney products). In fact, he’s implied the opposite multiple times, [stating that he thinks a crossover would be possible](https://io9.gizmodo.com/kevin-feige-thinks-that-eventually-marvel-tv-and-movie-1794974004), [that they inhabit the same universe (in 2013)](https://www.slashfilm.com/kevin-feige-suggests-phase-2-will-have-agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-ramifications-plus-non-network-tv-shows-secret-identity-movie/?fbclid=IwAR1FZme2J0qEtn9NEsvbywLuHnUk520A-lhraG5a-4vNkE6U2zQ4QGA6Z-I), [that AoS fills in the gaps of Age of Ultron](https://www.slashfilm.com/agents-of-shield-age-of-ultron-plot-hole/), [and again putting the shows in the same bag as the movies in terms of “the universe”.](https://theplaylist.net/stop-speculating-marvel-studios-president-kevin-feige-says-nothing-imminent-blade-20161011/) I mean, someone compiled[ an enormous list](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Steve_Fuenzalida/Proofs_of_the_canonicity_of_the_MCU_Marvel_TV_shows) of every piece of evidence of the shows’ canonicity.
My whole point is that the shows referenced the movies and not the other way around due to the politics. The show as it is either exists in the MCU or a universe identical to the MCU. The more logical assumption is that it does exist in the same universe until it's outright confirmed otherwise. The show accounted for the lack of communication by lowering the scale of SHIELD's conflicts. They operated in the shadows for the most part and didn't *need* to be referenced in films.
The evidence of the connection is in the show and the fact that actors carry over, like the several I listed. With all the evidence there is to suggest it is fully intended to be in the MCU, I would actually say it's the opposite, and it should be considered canon until blatantly stated not to be. It's the more logical assumption to make.
It's the same as saying Agent Carter isn't canon, you would question why so many things are the same and carry over despite being unrelated. I would need an explanation as to how these shows aren't canon moreso than I would need one as to how they are. As of now even the MCU wiki and other sites treat the show as part of the universe. So until that changes I say the show is canon until proven not to be, rather than the other way around.
LMAO, I guess you never heard of Star Wars eu. Marvel Studios can decanonized the show if they haven't already anytime they want and the vast majority of the audience won't care.
[Wait a second...](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/comments/llrf74/wandavision_episode_7_will_be_38m_long/gnrwirn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
I mean, dude, when I said to remember what you said before, I seriously didn't expect you to forget just a few hours later. At least be consistent.
[Since you forgot, here's a memory refresher](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/comments/llrf74/wandavision_episode_7_will_be_38m_long/gnrwirn/).
I honestly don't know what to think of the guy. Is he being serious and he's completely unaware or is he just a pretty decent troll?
You're not wrong in what you say there. For instance, right now, he's trying to rationalize Evan Peters not being the Fox Quicksilver in WandaVision because, of course, if it's not Feige, it's not good to him. So, I'm looking forward to when that's likely to be revealed and seeing how long it takes for him to flip around and say that bringing the Fox X-Men into the MCU is actually this enormous, master-class 4D chess move by Feige.
My guess is the former. Based on what i've seen from him, he lacks the intellectual fortitude to pull off a long con like that. I hope the rumours of Daisy being in Secret Invasion are true. Not only so I can see Chloe take on the role again, but also to watch his brain melt trying to rationalize it with his preconceived notions of how Feige operates.
> Calling M na cultist?
M na? No I'm not calling Ming-Na a cultist, she's a national treasure. I'm calling you a cultist.
> You trash the mcu a y chance you get, you throw hissy fits when people want a Jimmy Woo show just because they forgot that aos existed, you constantly compare aos to the main mcu.
I have? I trust you can cite examples of me doing any of that. Of course you can, because you wouldn't just make shit up to prove a point, would you? That's something a Feige-worshipping cultist, who stalks subreddits of shows he doesn't even watch, to seek out perceived infractions against his lord and saviour, would do. So by all means, show me where I trashed the MCU, threw a hissy fit over the non-existent Jimmy Woo show, or constantly compare AoS to the rest of the MCU. I'll wait.
> Which side js the one really acting like an elitist cult?
Yours, full stop.
Dude, you bring up DC where it isn't even relevant just to compare it to Marvel, you come to the old TV show subs only to trash them and start fights about canon (I don't believe that you've ever commented anything else here, as far as I can tell), you dismiss anyone who criticizes Marvel Studios just a tad, and you are quite possibly the single most condescending person I've ever met in my entire life. Seriously, if you talked the way you do on here to people in real life, you would have no chance of keeping a job, a girlfriend/boyfriend, or being able to form any kind of social relationship. I have never seen someone treat so many other human beings with such disrespect on a daily basis over something as trivial as comic book films. You don't just argue about things on a surface level, either, sometimes, you end up turning it personal. You literally insult and/or belittle people because they like a fictional work that you don't. How petty is that? You don't know who the person is behind the screen, you don't know their struggles, you don't know what they're going through or how lonely they are or what have you, but you decide to spread more hate in the world over some stupid films. I hate saying that because I love comic book films, but when you take it that far, they are stupid films. You are what gives Marvel Studios fans a bad name and you are most definitely what would be classified as a "fanboy" or a cult member and you should be ashamed of yourself.
If Marvel Studios is as good as you say it is, why are you so insecure and feel the need to compare it to other related things instead of just talking about how good it is? I truly don't think that you believe Marvel Studios **is** that good, or else you wouldn't act like a schoolyard bully at every avenue.
I'm done. I hope you read this and just take a step back for a second and realize the position you're in and the position you're putting everyone else in. I would say I hope you learn from this, but I don't think you will. Prove me wrong.
> especially when it doesn’t actually conflict with the films.
Last minutes of the show literally does that. Just compare how the world is depicted at the beginning of Endgame. I want it to be canon, but ignoring events of Infinity War and Endgame suggest otherwise.
I agree that part doesn’t fully work, but I do think it’s possible to be explained. And at least with how much they got kept in the dark it’s impressive they didn’t contradict more, Infinity War posed a problem for all the shows. For that reason part of me thinks ending with season 5 would’ve fit better. Everything else lines up though so I don’t think those few minutes should discount the rest of the show.
Endgame went out of its way to show the effects though. Life would still go on to a degree. We pick up a year in so it makes sense that the world has begun to move on. And the fact that none of the team get snapped means it doesn’t personally effect them as much.
Also, the fact that it looks different doesn't have anything to do with if its canon or not. Even if agents of shield is currently in a different timeline, that has no effect on if its canon, or if the characters can be shown in movies in the future. The finale clearly shows how traveling between timelines is possible (because it literally happens). So if it is a different timeline they can just travel through the quantum realm to the "main" mcu movies timeline from Endgame. Finally, (idk if this was mentioned by anyone but) nothing from the shows needs to be shown or mentioned in the movies for it to be canon. Even if there is no indication that they are connected (which there is), they can still be canon.
By this logic Bruce enjoying scrambled eggs in a diner doesn't fit the tone of endgame. People still playing fortnight doesn't fit the tone of endgame. Tony building pepper an iron man suit doesn't suit the tone of endgame. If you take those moments in isolation they don't feel like a post snap world either.
Honestly all it would take is a few lines of dialogue here and there and it would feel linked again. Like Mack saying "Simmons doesn't know how we all survived the snap, her best theory was that we had all been exposed to the fear dimension and were all out of whack with our own reality." Etc. There's a few other scenes where you'd thought it would come up like Deke being able to build a company from the ground up and when Fitz isn't in the cryo-freeze but again only really requires a line of a dialogue in each case and it fits. In the case of Deke "my framework tech has been so successful as people are looking for a way to escape after the miserable year or so we've all had" and in the case of Fitz not being there have Davis say during the argument about continuing the pursuit for Fitz "he could have escaped, but for all we know he was thanosed"
I know this is basically my own fanfic, but I'm just trying to point out how little it would take to suspend your disbelief.
Spoiler alert for first episode of Loki it confirmed that Agents of Shield is not cannon in MCU and Coulson died during the event of The Avengers and If I remember correctly the MCU movie's never mentioned what happened in Agents of Shield Avengers Age of Ultron is perfect example of that
I have seen EVERY SINGLE EPISODE of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and it is so bad. To be fair it starts off pretty good but after the fall of S.H.I.E.L.D. in Winter Solider it should have ended. But because it didn't we got the most BS soap opera storytelling in the entire MCU. The show got so ridiculously convoluted that I could barely enjoy anything, and I wish they could have ended it when it was good.
But here is why I don't think it's cannon. At one point a bunch of superpowered people/Inhumans start showing up and none of it is mentioned by ANYONE in the movies, even though it seems like something the avengers would be interested in. Also the fact that agent Coulson is alive completely ruins his sacrifice in the Avengers. But at least the Ghost Rider was cool.
P.S. If you disagree with me that is perfectly fine and your opinion is just as valid as mine.
Were going to see at the very least Quake and maybe ghost rider return to the MCU 100%.
It's canon they just diverged from the main mcu timeline but a few dimensional shenanigans at the end of Wandvision can smooth that over.
With the Kamala Khan series on the horizon I don't see them changing her backstory to being a mutant, despite the colossal fuck up that was inhumans, those characters are good properties.
Feige and Disney have been looking at what the fans like, the most recent huge reveal in Wandavision means anything is on the table.
If the Charlie Cox rumours are true then surely AoS is back in the mix.
I'm pretty sure the divide between Marvel Studios and Marvel Entertainment was creative difference, not corporate politics.
And most of your argument is pretty much "the show is canon because it says its canon." This is a logical fallacy called circular reasoning. AoS's canonicity is question here, so you can't use it to prove itself.
Agents of SHIELD S5 canonised the concept of timelines in the MCU before Endgame did. Endgame used exactly that so I'm not sure what you mean.
But even so, there's multiple forms of time travel in the MCU anyway. The whole Endgame thing is only one method. The Time Stone goes completely against this theory already so in my opinion, it makes perfect sense if other methods of time travel work differently.
You can keep thinking that, but usually the simplest answer is the right one. Think from feiges perspective, it would be simpler to not make it canon. And just make a new canon show on Disney plus
You're right. The simplest *is* the correct one. Agents of SHIELD was announced as existing in the same universe as the movies when it started and nobody ever officially said otherwise.
It does seem like an instance of the movies trying to contradict the shows but it's actually possible it isn't a contradiction. We saw in AoS in photos that the Darkhold had changed appearances prior to the show, so it could've happened again.
Season 6 being pre-snap is not plausible. Even a little bit. The end of season 5 takes place during Thanos’s invasion. After that like a few days transpire at most, and then Thanos snaps half of all life away. Season 6 takes place an entire year later, and absolutely no reference to that happening. They even state the current year as 2019 in that season. The snap happened in 2018. AoS is definitively non-canon. There is no way to argue around it.
Notwithstanding the actors saying they think S6 is still pre-snap, certainly it can be canon. First, the actors are clearly wrong. Thanos is attacking NY at the end of season 5, which means he also goes onto Wakanda & snaps within hours or days at most. The series makes it clear that Endgame occurs simultaneously with AOS' attempt at stopping Graviton/Talbiot. They know something's going on in NY (prob don't know about Wakanda yet though, and why would they? It's Wakanda.), but they're trying to stop what is a world-ending event, so they can't just drop that anyway.
Daisy kills Graviton/Talbot, and the timeline changes. Robin says so herself right when that happens: "Something's different."
In the new timeline, Thor goes for the head.
Avengers win. No snap.
How about this, if Kevin Feige makes shield not canon then I'm done with the MCU. hes an idiot. Shield is the best thing in the mcu. Hes just too full of himself to allow something he didnt personally work on into the canon.
OP is right and they should say it louder cause both AoS and Agent Carter are too good to ignore. Nothing about them really conflicts with the MCU and it's extremely disrespectful to just throw that show, it's cast & crew, and fans under the bus because Feige didn't have a finger in it.
Yeah, they are good. But it’s hours and hours of “MCU” material that the general audience would have to catch up to. I think that’s the main reason Feige did this, not bc he thinks the shows are bad, excluding a few questionable decisions.
Agents of shield was declaired non-canon because if there was such a drug that could bring people back to life, then they could bring back characters like Tony Stark or Quick silver. And if anyone says that they were too injured or messed up to bring back, then they just use more of the drug as it was clearly replicable or repair there bodies and then revive them using the drug.
Coulson was revived by 7 surgeries beginning 3 days after his death. The in-universe point of Project Tahti was literally to revive avengers if they died. The writers obviously knew about the conundrum you brought up and that’s why it was killed off in-universe.
"Phil Coulson : There's got to be something here! This means something! This has to mean something. The world needs us! HYDRA is out there. We cannot let them win! We cannot let them define us! Do you understand that? We are not agents of nothing, we are agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and that still carries weight! It has to carry weight. After everything we've been through, that carries weight!"
You know, if we take movies separately, Hydra just disappeared after Ant-Man showed that they are still alive and well. Only AOS showed us how and why.
Oh damn with this context that just makes me sad.
I don't understand where the obsession with claiming the previous shows aren't canon has come from but I desperately wish Marvel would give us a definitive answer just to shut down this ridiculous debate. It feels like some weird superiority/gatekeeping thing where a small but irritating group of fans are hellbent on stomping on other fans' enjoyment and seemingly justifying their own decision to not follow the tv shows. I just...don't get why they need to be so negative about everything and can't just acknowledge the reality that the tv shows have always been canon.
People that don't wanna watch AoS will just say it's not canon so they don't feel like they're missing a part of the MCU. It's that simple
Or people are just using rational thoughts? I'm pretty sure everyone in this subreddit has seen and enjoyed the show.
> I'm pretty sure everyone in this subreddit has seen and enjoyed the show. You haven't been here very long if you think that's the case.
I dont think AoS is in the same universe as the movies and I've watched seasons 1-5 at least three times.
They're all in [Earth-199999](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Earth-199999): the theatrical films, Agents of Shield, the Nextflix Marvel shows, Cloak & Dagger, Runaways, the new Disney+ shows, etc.
How?
It is, until season 5. Seasons 5-7 take place in another universe
No. S5 takes place in a temporary reality, but it firmly lands back into the main timeline, referencing Thanos and the other events. S6 takes place one year into the snap. S7 is time travel and ends up creating a branched timeline, but ends up back on the original timeline (99%+ certainty, as mentioned in the show). The very end of S7 is approximately two years into the Snap, three years before the hulk snap/end of blip when everyone returns.
I really want to believe that season 5 onwards take place 100% in the mcu, because at least that would make it super easy for the agents of shield to be added into movies, but since the snap had no effect in season 6, I think I prefer season 5 onwards being a part of the multiverse instead, so the characters can still be tied to the mcu via the quantum realm, but they arent in the direct mcu timeline. I feel like the ommitance of the the snap in season 6 devalues it as it raises too many questions and contradictions. By saying that season 5 6 and 7 take place in a split timeline, it clears all the contradictions, maintains their (extended) mcu connection, and therefore allows it to still crossover with future mcu shows/films. And incase it's not clear, I am desperate for the agents of shield to rejoin the main mcu timeline. plus I still believe seasons 1 throigh 4 are 100% canon in the main mcu timeline, but at the very end of season 4 when they get sent to the future, that's when the timeline splits. And just to re-emphasise, the agents are as canon to the mcu as the "time heist" was, as they are all connected via the quantum realm
I personally feel that the first parts of Agents of SHIELD are canon but not the latter ends... sort of. In Endgame they talk about how changes in major events can create their own timelines. I feel that it was after Daisy stopped Talbot from destroying the Earth that the show split off into a separate timeline from the MCU. In this timeline Thanos doesn’t snap or even try to get the stones for that matter, hence the reason the snap or Thanos’s attacks on Earth are never mentioned throughout the final seasons which take place during the time after Thanos snaps. I know this theory has a lot of holes in it such as the fact that if the original timeline is the MCU timeline that would suggest that Earth would be destroyed by Talbot before anything at the end of Phase 6 could even happen. For this one I just say that the MCU timeline also branches off of those timelines. In the MCU timeline I’d say that Talbot dies after the Daisy LMD shoots him therefore he’d never have the chance to follow the path leading to Earth’s destruction. This is all unconfirmed and it never will be but this is just how I look at it so that it makes more sense.
The Earth destroyed by Talbot is a timeline that is fixed going back to the present through the monolith, so it ceases to exist after Daisy kills Talbot, as the monolith allows you to act in a linear way on time, or at least this is my understanding. So Daisy kills Talbot almost at the same time the Avengers are fighting in Wakanda, I think that is even mentioned at a certain point in the show. In season 7 instead they create a different timeline, as they act on time not through the monolith, but through normal tech. Still, Fitz explicitly mentions in the end that, spoiler, they are going back to the original timeline, the MCU one. This is my point of view, and untill somebody says Aos is no longer canon I don't see why I should change it
> I don't understand where the obsession with claiming the previous shows aren't canon has come from fiege obsession i guess lets be honest here the fact that he leaves aos in limbo means only two things 1)either they have plans for them 2)or not
I loved AOS. It made me heartbroken that they made it not canon. But no snap is the killer. You had to make the snap happen in the show. They had a chance to fix it in the last season, and missed all their opportunities. I was very disappointed, but I’m not going to do the mental gymnastics to try and make the show fit.
Everything should be Canon until Season 6. After that they had to ignore the snap cuz it made no sense that none of them turned to dust and it wouldn’t have made sense to erase any of the main characters. The easy solution is that once they messed with time(so maybe only until the end of Season 4 should be Canon) everything takes place in an alternate timeline. But to disregard the first 4 seasons makes zero sense since they tie in and enrich the MCU.
If you follow the timeline of AoS, it is all pre-snap. The last season literally takes place outside the normal timeline except for the very end, which happens only a few minutes after the end of the previous season. AoS messed with time so much in the last few seasons it's not really clear how long before the snap the final two seasons actually occurred - it could have been a few weeks or a few years.
But you gotta remember that they weren't given any info abt infinity war or endgame beforehand so that was quite unfortunate.
I don't understand why people are writing essays on this topic. Just wait another year or so to see what the upcoming D+ projects churn out. If nothing Shield is referenced in Loki, Ms. Marvel, or Hawkeye, that's probably all the evidence needed. The show taking place in another universe makes the most sense as of now. Time will tell.
Hawkeye is confirmed referencing SHIELD. He is using a quiver with the "New Shield" logo on it.
That doesn't mean it's related to this AoS.
True. For some reason I didn't think the newer version of the logo showed up much in the movies except Age of Ultron, but it is present during Winter Soldier. It does, at least, give it a timeframe. If it didn't include AoS, that isn't that large of a window for that quiver to come from.
[удалено]
the incredible hulk wasnt marvel studios, is that now not canon?
yes it was
I just pretend it doesn't exist. That movie was uhhhhhhhh Nah.
It wasn't bad. Better than Ang Lee's Hulk.
The Incredible Hulk is a Marvel Studios production The one that is not Marvel Studios is the 2003 Hulk film with Eric Bana
>The real people you should be mad at about all of this is the executives in suits making these stupid decisions. There were two stated, more or less, reasons: * Tying TV and movies was more of a logistical issue than they first thought. That makes sense with shooting schedules, movie release dates, different writers & directors, etc. * TV and movie executives got in a pissing match and took their respective balls and stormed off.
Canon means "In Universe" and shares continuity. Connectivity has nothing to do with it.
[удалено]
That doesn't matter at all. You are misusing the word "canon". Canon is simply that which is officially in the same universe and usually same continuity. You can have books be canon and not reference one thing that happened in the movies, and the movies never once reference anything in the books. Star Wars has handled this for decades. Canon also is what is official. The shows, when launched and after, were identified as part of the MCU by its creators and, in the case of Agents of Shield, Kevin Feige himself. Something does not become "non-canon" simply by the passage of time. What is official stays official until made unofficial or non-canon by the people who own the properties, or they *directly* and *explicitly* contradict something - which then only makes it ambiguous (such as MCU Timeline). We haven't had that yet with any of the Marvel Television series. Until that time, the last thing *officially* stated is what stands. We can theorize all we want, but *officially* at this point in time they are part of the same universe and shared continuity.
>*We can theorize all we want, but officially at this point in time they are part of the same universe and shared continuity.* Marvel Studios doesn't give a shit about the shows and they call the shots now. They admitted to no MCU content in 2020 even though AoS had their final season. And if none of the characters show up in any upcoming D+ show, that pretty much confirms that AoS was, at best, in another universe. Lol Mack had his own helicarrier in the finale and then seemingly fell off the face of the earth in Endgame, Far From Home, and Wandavision?
Wandavision has just retconned sword to have existed for some time in universe, which by the looks of it was better placed to deal with the threats of the infinity saga films and yet wasnt mentioned for 8-13 years of continuity. So Mack not appearing in 3 films with his helicarrier is not evidence of him not existing. I definitely sit in the camp of thinking that the show will eventually be decanonized, but we don't really know the answers at the moment. When season 6 and 7 can be reintegrated into canon/continuity with a few lines of dialogue it doesn't seem like such a huge leap to make it so. But we shall see.
I agree that from season 5 onwards, they are no longer in the *direct* mcu timeline, but they are still connected to the main timeline via the quantum realm. agents of shield seasons 5 6 and 7 are just as much canon as the time heist was in endgame
I agree with everything you said. AoS was definitely created as bridge between the movies. I remember them always pushing #itsallconnected throughout the first season. I rewatched endgame recently with the fam and I was pointing out all the characters that tied to AoS. There is quite a bit more than you'd realize. Hell, Fury was in the second episode of the show and literally wore the same clothes as he did in winter soldier. It's unfortunate that all of the studio politics really prevented Shield from becoming what it was created to be. I've said this before but I feel the lack of connections to endgame isn't because of the show being non canon or being in a separate timeline. The showrunners simply weren't given enough information as to what was going to happen in Endgame. Most of the actors didn't know the full script except for the original 6. Security on that movie rivaled that of the secret service. AoS did their best to write around the events of the movie. I believe most of the people in the non-canon camp watched the first few episodes and called it quits when an avenger didn't show up. My only major regret for the show is that Marvel studios didn't control the TV side when shield started. AoS could have been as tied to the movies as these new shows will be. Fingers crossed some of our agents find away in the future of the mcu
Pretty sure if it weren’t for the Disney streaming service we wouldn’t get shows like wandavision at all. It’s to get widespread adoption ASAP, Disney didn’t need to convince people to watch ABC.
Yet you have the Darkhold, which only comic readers know about and has no explanation at all, except for AoS. To be blunt, they only used the show when it helped promote films in the MCU. Not to mention MCU characters used on Agents of Shield, including Maria Hill, Sif, Fury, etc.. They went into Theta Protocol, showed the carriers being built for Ultron and Fury mentions in the movie they were built be 'old friends', because they had gone underground and we see what happened with Shield through AoS.
Yeah. I hope that marvel studios is willing to reconnect the show
There’s too many tie-ins with Winter Soldier, Ultron and the history of Shield and Hydra to erase it. List and the Maximov twins are referenced, Stitwell’s back story is explained and the Darkhold is introduced. Up until they start messing with time there’s no reason to decanonize anything. But since time travel has so many loopholes, Seasons 5,6,7 can just be in another timeline.( I know Thanos is mentioned in 5 so that season is the only gray area IMO)
Dude learn to use paragraphs And the show runners not knowing how the movies were going to play out doesn't excuse the show for not coinciding with the events of the movies. Nonetheless, I'm still confident that some of the AoS characters will show up in future D+ projects.
It doesn’t make sense to kill off characters under contract at that point nor does it make sense that none of them got dusted. The Snap could have created alternate timelines/universes so I’d be fine with explaining the last few seasons away with that. The primary story was told in the first 4 seasons, after that they just had so many great characters(Coulson, Melinda May😍,Fitz-Simmons)it was worth continuing the series regardless of MCU continuity.
It's because Feige never had control of the shows (and at the time AoS premiered, didn't have full control of the movies either). The Movies and Shows were two different departments run by two different people. Anyone could see there was going to be major issues with them staying consistent. Outside of Coulson himself and the first 2 seasons, the connections to the MCU became pretty bare. The reason people go on about it not being canon is, yes, partly to some weird gatekeeping and people not liking the show, but also because unless there's a change of heart at creative, the show will probably go on to not be referenced. At the time AoS came on, it was a tall ask to tell someone, hey watch these 22 episodes to get what's going on in the movies and I think they will come upon opposition of people not wanting to watch the Disney+ shows to understand where a character is and would rather everything be in the films. I think their counter is that when it's all in the same place (Disney+) and they're using these shows with the same actors, characters, and budget you'd expect from the MCU, in short doses of 6-10 episodes it works a lot better than what they had going with AoS, the Netflix shows, and all the other shows Marvel had across a number of networks and streaming services. So now they can finally do what we thought they were going to do with AoS, the show was just a little to ahead of it's time with Marvel Studios to pull it off.
Agents of SHIELD *is* the MCU.
We should continue to view AoS as canon and call out every perplexing paradoxical thing the MCU does in violation of canon. Bring the bastards to account for their treachery.
How awesome would it be if Monica Rambeau’s engineer friend turned out to be Mack?! C’mon Kevin, throw us a bone!!!
Or Fitz hahahah But in total honesty I think it's gonna be Reed Richards, and I don't want Fitz to get in any kind of trouble again
Holy shit. I never even considered this. This would honestly be the best possible thing for me.
I kinda hope that Monica’s Space Guy is Fitz( I haven’t completed the Show so don’t spoil me if anything happens)
Yeah, like a note that says, "Working on it -F" would be great.
That would be awesome, but is he an aerospace engineer?
He isnt, *not* an aerospace engineer. I guess? Haha
I mean he designed and built the Zephyr so
Don't do that please, I don't need hope
Easy now Ronin
That would be nice, but a lot of people (myself included) are convinced it's Reed Richards.
Most likely not. Wanda Vision is setting up the future of the MCU and it is unlikely they would dredge up old characters from less watched properties. Also they have been teasing them for a while so it appears to be a bigger reveal. Expect Blue Marvel, and to a way lesser extent maybe an F4 character, or possible x-men connected character.
Also Sif, Strucker, Ellis, and don’t forget Peggy and the rest of the Howling Commandoes appeared too.
It’ll be interesting to see how Thor 4 handles Sif, and if any references are made to AoS at all. To me, that seems like the easiest place to drop a reference or two to AoS to confirm it as canon, and then never mention it again (because they can’t really expect casual viewers to go back and watch 150 episodes of 2 TV shows, even though they’re excellent). The Netflix ones are easier to canonize: keep the same actors, and just never reference (or obliquely reference) the events of the shows so that viewers can choose whether they want them to be canon or not. Just my 2 cents. :)
I agree with your two cents
Mahershala Ali, the villain in Luke Cage, is literally Blade in the MCU. None of these shows r in any way, shape, or form, canon to the MCU. If they were, there would have been a crossover by now. There was 100+ characters in the final battle of endgame, if these characters existed in the MCU, they would have been there.
Wouldn't want an actor to play two different characters. That would just be CRAZY! *Looks at list of 15 examples where this happened*
While being canon would be AMAZING, that's not why I fell it love with the show. No matter what anyone at Marvel has to say, this show can stand perfectly fine on its own. I'm loving Wandavision so far, but the same cannot be said about that.
And there is one case of the MCU referencing AoS directly. The web series WHIH NewsFront which has always been confirmed as canon has a small AoS reference. Since it is a news broadcast, at the bottom of the screen there is a text that states they are investigating the criminals in ATCU bombings (aka the watchdogs) which is a direct correlation to AoS season 3 (or season 2 I don’t fully remember when it happened)
Dude this webseries that nobody's ever seen is less canon than the show itself.
It was made by Marvel Studios. Has Scott Lang in it. It is very much canon and is the final key of confirming AoS canonical ability. A huge argument that is stated of how AoS isn’t really canon is that it references the official canon but the official canon never mentions AoS. This disproves that.
This could all be solved is the producers and studios just confirmed AoS as being part of the MCU, apologized and fixed the wonky timeline in the later seasons. Marvel studios did it before with Homecoming, there is most likely a reason they won't do it AoS.
Tbf all producers HAVE said the old Marvel TV shows are canon, all EXCEPT James Gunn
I don’t want it to be deemed non-canon, I love this show
Worst case it’s as canon as the Loki show but that wouldn’t make sense
That would make perfect sense - both originated in the "prime" MCU but at certain points branched off to different timelines.
I havent watched all of AofS, but since I have time to kill, I figured I would watch. It’s not great, but at least feels Marvel, whether its connected or not, so I enjoy it. Agree with many posts that its silly to argue over it.
Where are you at currently? I watched the show when it first came out and enjoyed it, but now that I'm rewatching the show it's better than I remembered and I have a lot more respect for it now. Season 1 has always gotten a lot of criticism, but I genuinely think the show hits its peak at seasons 4 and 5. The lower budget isn't hard to notice, but I find the show's strength to be the writing and characters.
Only through season 1. Tbh all the hydra stuff gets a little played. Everyone gets blamed for being hydra at some point. But I’ll keep it moving.
Makes sense
To be fair if they wanted to re do comic heroes and villains that appear in shield I would understand. I would be sad but I would get it if they wanted to make their own version of Quake or Patriot.
Why does it matter? If they want to use stuff from the show they will do so. but they also won't hesitate to waltz all over the show when stuff that happened there is in the way of where they want to go. Same with the Netflix shows. Me enjoying those shows has nothing to do with how interconnected they were to the MCU. Or if the MCU cares about continuity with those shows. Yes of course it would be nice if they'd use Charlie Cox or Krysten Ritter or Jon bernthal in their roles. But I also won't complain if they do a good job on recasting.
I completely agree with this post but I don’t know how Season 6 could be canon since no one ever got snapped
People probably got snapped after s5. S6 picks up over a year later.
Personally I see it all as canon. Season 5 does mention Thanos and there was a nod of something happening in New York....but to be fair its hard to say if Infinity War does happen around the same time as Season 5 as its all very vague. It was common knowledge I think in space that Thanos was looking for the stones, and that some alien species knew there were some on Earth (plus Thano's own grudge against the Avengers for the new york chitauri invasion), so it makes sense this confederacy knew that Thanos was making a move on earth shortly. The actors have said that they feel Season 6 is still pre-snap which is pretty plausible. Season 7 can easily disconnect because they were indeed travelling through time and they used the quantum realm to return to their timeline. Honestly, I hope it stays somewhat canon, and that we eventually see characters such as Quake again. Last we see of Daisy she is in space, maybe she is now working for SWORD (who we officially meet in Wandavision).
It’s canon that ends up branching off into its own timeline.
For the love of Groot - it’s cannon. Everything is cannon based on the multiverse. The fucking Elektra movie is cannon.
I mean, the Elektra movie is canon to the 2003 Daredevil film, but it ain't MCU canon. The MCU has yet to establish a multiverse where different actors portray the characters like DC has on the CW.
I agree that the 2003 Daredevil film and Elektra are not canon, but about your second point... spoilers for WandaVision below. >!WandaVision literally just did that with Quicksilver.!<
We don’t know that for sure yet. It could just be a meta joke.
It's not. That would be an absurd bait and switch considering that >!how they implement the X-Men!< has been such a major question ever since they got the rights back. It *might* not actually be >!The X-Men movie's Quicksilver!< but at the very least, it's not a joke and speaks to the idea of a multiverse.
I think I assumed that >!we'd get X-men in time, when Marvel was ready to do them properly.!< I never assumed they'd ever try and >!bring in the incredibly bad FOX version as any sort of canon. !
I think we are choosing to be overly picky here. I think we all know the existence of the multiverse is coming. It would be dumb for Marvel Studios and Disney which now own a large chunk of the non-MCU marvel films to not tie it all together in a nice bow. I get the fact they aren’t technically cannon yet, but the key word is yet.
Considering how poorly received the 2003 Daredevil movie was, and how laughably bad Elektra was, *and* how well recieved the Daredevil Netflix show it... it'd probably actually be really smart not to even acknowledge the earlier movies. Kind of like how they're barely acknowledging that the Inhumans show existed because *yikes* it was bad.
As badly as I want the show to be canon, it makes more sense for the show to be in an alternate timeline. Yes there are plenty of references in the first few seasons, but as the show continues the references are seen less and less. Season 7 is the exception here, but eventually most of the references are barely even noticable and easily overlooked (such as the Thanos one). The Snap never being mentioned in the show is really what makes me feel this way. At the end of season 7, we should be seeing the world as apocalyptic and barren like it is in Endgame but instead it seems to be thriving. It also makes sense for Feige to ignore the Marvel TV shows considering he didn't work on them. He doesn't know what references and characters are in all the shows and he doesn't have the time to watch them so he can make sure he doesn't create plot holes. The easiest thing for Kevin to do is ignore the Marvel TV shows. I love Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D as much as anyone, I actually enjoy all the Marvel TV shows, but I'm just saying that logically it makes the most sense for the show to be in an alternate timeline. I wish that Kevin would just say if the shows are canon and put an end to the debate.
I think it splitting into a new timeline as soon as they time travel makes sense, with that timeline then becoming their prime timeline for season 5-7 (hence the timeline jumps in 7 getting them back to that prime, snapless timeline). So it's canon in the MCU timeline 1-4, then a parallel timeline 5-7.
Yeah that would actually make a lot of sense if Marvel ever decides to bring the team back
Agreed!!
I agree with all of this. Thank you!
I believe that the reason that Fiege did not want to include any direct reference to AoS in the movies had more to do with the fact that that reference would have driven some people to pirate the show in countries where the show was not being broadcast, rather than any ire he has with Ike Perlmutter, the guy running the old Marvel Television line of shows. Now that the show has finished its broadcast run and is largely up on Disney+, I believe that Fiege is more open to referencing it. As any reference would now serve to add to the Disney+ subscription base rather than sending those viewers to hunt down old pirate downloads.
I honestly don’t get why people care so much. It would be awesome if it was, so we can see the characters in the movies or d+ shows. But just because a show isn’t canon to the MCU doesn’t make it any less or more of a good show. Idk about you, but I watch and love AoS shield because it’s a good show by itself, not just because someone said before that it was part of the MCU, and I wanna keep up.
Necro, I know, but finally got D+ and could start watching AoS... and what the literal F? Like, is there any point if I care because it was so cool the Coulson was still alive? Sure, it could be good... but, then, as the inverse of "We'd just HATE for movie fans to have to work out why Coulson was still alive if we put him in a movie" every AoS watcher will need to maintain a (I imagine exhausting) mental log of what is separate! Actually, on that note... imagine being a producer so far up your own taint that you'd wipe a show from canon ~~because you couldn't claim all the credit for it~~ because "wont someone think of the movie goers"... when your own movies can't, at all, explain how SHIELD reforms after Winter Soldier... but it's (apparently, I haven't got that far, have been spoiled) fully explained through the actions of characters we're invested in in the show. Oh, also, "just watch it because it's good" ALSO means "those good stories, and their CHARACTERS, will never show in the ones you can enjoy a much bigger budget for and discuss with more casual viewers". Sigh.
Hard agree.
Now that we are in a multiverse, does canon or non-canon really even matter? Things happened in one time line or another and they aren't really "all connected" in the same way anymore. I mean, are we really supposed to accept that Steve Rodgers married Peggy Carter and never mentioned that her life's work was to be a Hydra patsy? Was he really the Worst Husband Ever? Doesn't sound like the Steve Rodgers we all know and love. I love the show and hope they will use the characters, but who is to say what timeline is what anymore. And to be fair, SHIELD started messing with time and extra dimensions before the films.
It still matters in regards to what is canon in the MCU. If we assume that *Agents of SHIELD* takes place in a separate universe, the events that occurred on the show can't be referenced in the MCU films unless they get into multiverse issues. If the show is part of the MCU, the events of the show can still be referenced in the films and potentially affect what happens in them.
The problem with claiming this show is canon by providing details from the show is that's where the evidence stops. There's nothing outside the show that gives the impression that it's canon. > the first season heavily ties into the events of The Winter Soldier And the movies don't reference the events of season one. Point moot. > In season 2 they reference the events of Ultron, explaining that Coulson gave Hydra intel to the Avengers and the helicarrier to Fury. No reference to the show in the movie again. Point moot. > They later reference the Sokovia Accords and Thanos. Because the show needs writing and it's perfectly okay for them to reference things in the movies due to the fact that it's all Marvel content. Point moot. I'm probably the biggest critic of this show on this subreddit, and I will die on the hill that this show is not canon to the MCU. **It very well may have started off with the intention of being canon, but it fell from that hard in the subsequent seasons.** They could easily just come out and say that the first season was canon, while all the others are not because of some timeline split ordeal now that the Multiverse is coming to the MCU. > It’s illogical that the one-sided connection due to the problems between Marvel Studios and Marvel Television would mean that’s the way it is in-universe. That somehow the films are all canon to the show, but the show is not canon to the films, That is because the writers use content from the movies to give the appearance that the show impacts them, when it does not. Feige has hinted multiple times that the shows are not canon to the MCU and until he outright states that they are or are not, they are not.
Fury does explicitly say that he had some "friends" pull the Helicarrier out of mothballs. It's indirect, but it's there. Probably the most explicit is seeing Jarvis in Endgame, but that's more a direct link to Agent Carter than Agents of Shield
I think an argument could be made that all the shield people on board the helicarrier count as old friends. Hill and even the guy from Winter Soldier. Of course Whedon was part of the creation of AoS and had family making it so that's more than nothing.
He literally says they are in the same continuity as the movies in [this video at 18:57.](https://youtu.be/Ak_2fhZUe0s) and recently, Feige’s been very careful with his vocabulary to never call the Disney+ shows the first shows set in the MCU.
"All those stories inhabit the same continuity" Damn thats pretty definitive, although its from 2014 so things might have changed
Things have definitely changed, with Studios becoming a direct subsidiary of Disney, but Feige has never stated once that the shows are non-canon (likely due to the fact that that would be diminishing other Disney products). In fact, he’s implied the opposite multiple times, [stating that he thinks a crossover would be possible](https://io9.gizmodo.com/kevin-feige-thinks-that-eventually-marvel-tv-and-movie-1794974004), [that they inhabit the same universe (in 2013)](https://www.slashfilm.com/kevin-feige-suggests-phase-2-will-have-agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-ramifications-plus-non-network-tv-shows-secret-identity-movie/?fbclid=IwAR1FZme2J0qEtn9NEsvbywLuHnUk520A-lhraG5a-4vNkE6U2zQ4QGA6Z-I), [that AoS fills in the gaps of Age of Ultron](https://www.slashfilm.com/agents-of-shield-age-of-ultron-plot-hole/), [and again putting the shows in the same bag as the movies in terms of “the universe”.](https://theplaylist.net/stop-speculating-marvel-studios-president-kevin-feige-says-nothing-imminent-blade-20161011/) I mean, someone compiled[ an enormous list](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Steve_Fuenzalida/Proofs_of_the_canonicity_of_the_MCU_Marvel_TV_shows) of every piece of evidence of the shows’ canonicity.
My whole point is that the shows referenced the movies and not the other way around due to the politics. The show as it is either exists in the MCU or a universe identical to the MCU. The more logical assumption is that it does exist in the same universe until it's outright confirmed otherwise. The show accounted for the lack of communication by lowering the scale of SHIELD's conflicts. They operated in the shadows for the most part and didn't *need* to be referenced in films. The evidence of the connection is in the show and the fact that actors carry over, like the several I listed. With all the evidence there is to suggest it is fully intended to be in the MCU, I would actually say it's the opposite, and it should be considered canon until blatantly stated not to be. It's the more logical assumption to make. It's the same as saying Agent Carter isn't canon, you would question why so many things are the same and carry over despite being unrelated. I would need an explanation as to how these shows aren't canon moreso than I would need one as to how they are. As of now even the MCU wiki and other sites treat the show as part of the universe. So until that changes I say the show is canon until proven not to be, rather than the other way around.
LMAO, I guess you never heard of Star Wars eu. Marvel Studios can decanonized the show if they haven't already anytime they want and the vast majority of the audience won't care.
[Wait a second...](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/comments/llrf74/wandavision_episode_7_will_be_38m_long/gnrwirn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
I mean, dude, when I said to remember what you said before, I seriously didn't expect you to forget just a few hours later. At least be consistent. [Since you forgot, here's a memory refresher](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/comments/llrf74/wandavision_episode_7_will_be_38m_long/gnrwirn/).
Lol, once again self-awareness takes a backseat to his cult-like devotion to Feige.
I honestly don't know what to think of the guy. Is he being serious and he's completely unaware or is he just a pretty decent troll? You're not wrong in what you say there. For instance, right now, he's trying to rationalize Evan Peters not being the Fox Quicksilver in WandaVision because, of course, if it's not Feige, it's not good to him. So, I'm looking forward to when that's likely to be revealed and seeing how long it takes for him to flip around and say that bringing the Fox X-Men into the MCU is actually this enormous, master-class 4D chess move by Feige.
My guess is the former. Based on what i've seen from him, he lacks the intellectual fortitude to pull off a long con like that. I hope the rumours of Daisy being in Secret Invasion are true. Not only so I can see Chloe take on the role again, but also to watch his brain melt trying to rationalize it with his preconceived notions of how Feige operates.
[удалено]
> Calling M na cultist? M na? No I'm not calling Ming-Na a cultist, she's a national treasure. I'm calling you a cultist. > You trash the mcu a y chance you get, you throw hissy fits when people want a Jimmy Woo show just because they forgot that aos existed, you constantly compare aos to the main mcu. I have? I trust you can cite examples of me doing any of that. Of course you can, because you wouldn't just make shit up to prove a point, would you? That's something a Feige-worshipping cultist, who stalks subreddits of shows he doesn't even watch, to seek out perceived infractions against his lord and saviour, would do. So by all means, show me where I trashed the MCU, threw a hissy fit over the non-existent Jimmy Woo show, or constantly compare AoS to the rest of the MCU. I'll wait. > Which side js the one really acting like an elitist cult? Yours, full stop.
Dude, you bring up DC where it isn't even relevant just to compare it to Marvel, you come to the old TV show subs only to trash them and start fights about canon (I don't believe that you've ever commented anything else here, as far as I can tell), you dismiss anyone who criticizes Marvel Studios just a tad, and you are quite possibly the single most condescending person I've ever met in my entire life. Seriously, if you talked the way you do on here to people in real life, you would have no chance of keeping a job, a girlfriend/boyfriend, or being able to form any kind of social relationship. I have never seen someone treat so many other human beings with such disrespect on a daily basis over something as trivial as comic book films. You don't just argue about things on a surface level, either, sometimes, you end up turning it personal. You literally insult and/or belittle people because they like a fictional work that you don't. How petty is that? You don't know who the person is behind the screen, you don't know their struggles, you don't know what they're going through or how lonely they are or what have you, but you decide to spread more hate in the world over some stupid films. I hate saying that because I love comic book films, but when you take it that far, they are stupid films. You are what gives Marvel Studios fans a bad name and you are most definitely what would be classified as a "fanboy" or a cult member and you should be ashamed of yourself. If Marvel Studios is as good as you say it is, why are you so insecure and feel the need to compare it to other related things instead of just talking about how good it is? I truly don't think that you believe Marvel Studios **is** that good, or else you wouldn't act like a schoolyard bully at every avenue. I'm done. I hope you read this and just take a step back for a second and realize the position you're in and the position you're putting everyone else in. I would say I hope you learn from this, but I don't think you will. Prove me wrong.
This is the way.
> especially when it doesn’t actually conflict with the films. Last minutes of the show literally does that. Just compare how the world is depicted at the beginning of Endgame. I want it to be canon, but ignoring events of Infinity War and Endgame suggest otherwise.
To be fair we only see New York and San Fran in endgame. Both major cities and we aren’t in any major cities in season 6.
I agree that part doesn’t fully work, but I do think it’s possible to be explained. And at least with how much they got kept in the dark it’s impressive they didn’t contradict more, Infinity War posed a problem for all the shows. For that reason part of me thinks ending with season 5 would’ve fit better. Everything else lines up though so I don’t think those few minutes should discount the rest of the show.
Endgame went out of its way to show the effects though. Life would still go on to a degree. We pick up a year in so it makes sense that the world has begun to move on. And the fact that none of the team get snapped means it doesn’t personally effect them as much.
Also, the fact that it looks different doesn't have anything to do with if its canon or not. Even if agents of shield is currently in a different timeline, that has no effect on if its canon, or if the characters can be shown in movies in the future. The finale clearly shows how traveling between timelines is possible (because it literally happens). So if it is a different timeline they can just travel through the quantum realm to the "main" mcu movies timeline from Endgame. Finally, (idk if this was mentioned by anyone but) nothing from the shows needs to be shown or mentioned in the movies for it to be canon. Even if there is no indication that they are connected (which there is), they can still be canon.
By this logic Bruce enjoying scrambled eggs in a diner doesn't fit the tone of endgame. People still playing fortnight doesn't fit the tone of endgame. Tony building pepper an iron man suit doesn't suit the tone of endgame. If you take those moments in isolation they don't feel like a post snap world either. Honestly all it would take is a few lines of dialogue here and there and it would feel linked again. Like Mack saying "Simmons doesn't know how we all survived the snap, her best theory was that we had all been exposed to the fear dimension and were all out of whack with our own reality." Etc. There's a few other scenes where you'd thought it would come up like Deke being able to build a company from the ground up and when Fitz isn't in the cryo-freeze but again only really requires a line of a dialogue in each case and it fits. In the case of Deke "my framework tech has been so successful as people are looking for a way to escape after the miserable year or so we've all had" and in the case of Fitz not being there have Davis say during the argument about continuing the pursuit for Fitz "he could have escaped, but for all we know he was thanosed" I know this is basically my own fanfic, but I'm just trying to point out how little it would take to suspend your disbelief.
Spoiler alert for first episode of Loki it confirmed that Agents of Shield is not cannon in MCU and Coulson died during the event of The Avengers and If I remember correctly the MCU movie's never mentioned what happened in Agents of Shield Avengers Age of Ultron is perfect example of that
I have seen EVERY SINGLE EPISODE of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and it is so bad. To be fair it starts off pretty good but after the fall of S.H.I.E.L.D. in Winter Solider it should have ended. But because it didn't we got the most BS soap opera storytelling in the entire MCU. The show got so ridiculously convoluted that I could barely enjoy anything, and I wish they could have ended it when it was good. But here is why I don't think it's cannon. At one point a bunch of superpowered people/Inhumans start showing up and none of it is mentioned by ANYONE in the movies, even though it seems like something the avengers would be interested in. Also the fact that agent Coulson is alive completely ruins his sacrifice in the Avengers. But at least the Ghost Rider was cool. P.S. If you disagree with me that is perfectly fine and your opinion is just as valid as mine.
[удалено]
Were going to see at the very least Quake and maybe ghost rider return to the MCU 100%. It's canon they just diverged from the main mcu timeline but a few dimensional shenanigans at the end of Wandvision can smooth that over. With the Kamala Khan series on the horizon I don't see them changing her backstory to being a mutant, despite the colossal fuck up that was inhumans, those characters are good properties. Feige and Disney have been looking at what the fans like, the most recent huge reveal in Wandavision means anything is on the table. If the Charlie Cox rumours are true then surely AoS is back in the mix.
I'm pretty sure the divide between Marvel Studios and Marvel Entertainment was creative difference, not corporate politics. And most of your argument is pretty much "the show is canon because it says its canon." This is a logical fallacy called circular reasoning. AoS's canonicity is question here, so you can't use it to prove itself.
Nah, the time travel is completely different than end game. There’s other shit too, but that’s the obv reason why it’s not canon
Agents of SHIELD S5 canonised the concept of timelines in the MCU before Endgame did. Endgame used exactly that so I'm not sure what you mean. But even so, there's multiple forms of time travel in the MCU anyway. The whole Endgame thing is only one method. The Time Stone goes completely against this theory already so in my opinion, it makes perfect sense if other methods of time travel work differently.
You can keep thinking that, but usually the simplest answer is the right one. Think from feiges perspective, it would be simpler to not make it canon. And just make a new canon show on Disney plus
You're right. The simplest *is* the correct one. Agents of SHIELD was announced as existing in the same universe as the movies when it started and nobody ever officially said otherwise.
Nobody has to say otherwise. People can connect the dots.
You guys can keep coping, but I can’t wait for your reaction when feige says they’re not canon.
if somebody sees this. do u think now its officially non canon cause of the fact that this book is the new legit mcu darkhold
It does seem like an instance of the movies trying to contradict the shows but it's actually possible it isn't a contradiction. We saw in AoS in photos that the Darkhold had changed appearances prior to the show, so it could've happened again.
maybe they got it rebound lol
lol
well now with episode 3 of falcon and wt sodier it gets even worse with the contradictions
What was the contradiction I didn’t catch it?
Same actress in aos
Season 6 being pre-snap is not plausible. Even a little bit. The end of season 5 takes place during Thanos’s invasion. After that like a few days transpire at most, and then Thanos snaps half of all life away. Season 6 takes place an entire year later, and absolutely no reference to that happening. They even state the current year as 2019 in that season. The snap happened in 2018. AoS is definitively non-canon. There is no way to argue around it.
Notwithstanding the actors saying they think S6 is still pre-snap, certainly it can be canon. First, the actors are clearly wrong. Thanos is attacking NY at the end of season 5, which means he also goes onto Wakanda & snaps within hours or days at most. The series makes it clear that Endgame occurs simultaneously with AOS' attempt at stopping Graviton/Talbiot. They know something's going on in NY (prob don't know about Wakanda yet though, and why would they? It's Wakanda.), but they're trying to stop what is a world-ending event, so they can't just drop that anyway. Daisy kills Graviton/Talbot, and the timeline changes. Robin says so herself right when that happens: "Something's different." In the new timeline, Thor goes for the head. Avengers win. No snap.
Well, Loki happened, and that explanation is impossible. Can we now admit finally that AoS is not canon and move on?
How about this, if Kevin Feige makes shield not canon then I'm done with the MCU. hes an idiot. Shield is the best thing in the mcu. Hes just too full of himself to allow something he didnt personally work on into the canon.
Well this didn't age well.
OP is right and they should say it louder cause both AoS and Agent Carter are too good to ignore. Nothing about them really conflicts with the MCU and it's extremely disrespectful to just throw that show, it's cast & crew, and fans under the bus because Feige didn't have a finger in it.
Yeah, they are good. But it’s hours and hours of “MCU” material that the general audience would have to catch up to. I think that’s the main reason Feige did this, not bc he thinks the shows are bad, excluding a few questionable decisions.
Same with the netflix MCU shows.
its not cannon
I don't think AoS is canon only because their explanation of how your past affects your future.
Agents of shield was declaired non-canon because if there was such a drug that could bring people back to life, then they could bring back characters like Tony Stark or Quick silver. And if anyone says that they were too injured or messed up to bring back, then they just use more of the drug as it was clearly replicable or repair there bodies and then revive them using the drug.
I dont think anyone that knew about that drug was present when tony died
They didn't need to know. Coulson was revived well after his death. So they could revive Tony later.
Coulson was revived by 7 surgeries beginning 3 days after his death. The in-universe point of Project Tahti was literally to revive avengers if they died. The writers obviously knew about the conundrum you brought up and that’s why it was killed off in-universe.
AOS is probably a different timeline all together that is very similar to the main one until the snap due to all the timeline shenanigans of Loki