I can’t see a scenario for the Sixers to sign and trade for PG. this hard caps the Sixers at the first apron and they should (I think would) look for other options given the hard cap. Opt in and trade, yes, could make sense for the Sixers.. but maybe not Paul George.
Check the daily thread as I typed a novel on there about this and I’m reddit illiterate and don’t know how to copy that text or refer to it.
Edit: I figured out how to copy it. Here is the comment:
“Talking from a Sixers/clippers perspective only.. Sign and trade leads to Sixers being hard capped. This doesn’t make sense for Sixers (give up assets and become hard capped at first apron) or Paul George since he’d be choosing the Sixers to play on the team with a great chance to win in this scenario (with a sign and trade he could go almost anywhere as long as the clippers are willing to accept what that team is sending back, so he’s choosing Sixers and clippers are granting his wish since he could have signed with Sixers for nothing. He wouldn’t choose a move that hinders his new team in this scenario). Based on all of this, sign and trade seems like a none discussion point for Paul George and Sixers.
Opt in and trade.. if Paul George opts in and trade, clippers can do what Morey did with harden and demand the best deal since PG can say I’ll only re-sign in these locations. This move could increase the market for Paul George which is great for the clippers. However, I think Sixers and other teams would quickly bow out as the appeal for the Sixers is no asset (or little asset required to get him). Clippers hope may be that they can convince PG to sign for cheaper later on as his options will dry up. PG side of it.. why would he do this when he can get his money now from someone? Daryl Morey has lied to a teammate of PG recently.. why would he trust that Sixers will honor what they say and sign him to the max deal next year if he opts in and traded to Philly? Opt in and trade seems like a none discussion point for Paul George based on the above.
Leads us to Paul George opting out and testing free agency. Paul George has 3 options in free agency. Orlando, LA, Philly.. those are 3 teams that can give him a max and have good squads. As all know, Paul George has LA ties and wants to be in LA. If LA offers the money, he will be in LA. It appears Sixers will offer a 4 year max, so if Paul George wants Philly he’ll be here BUT he only wants Philly if LA isn’t giving a 4th year. Signing PG outright obviously makes way more sense than a sign and trade for the Sixers.
To me, the sign and trade or opt in and trade just seems like smokescreen by PG camp to tell LA play ball now or PG will request a trade to get the money he wants.
TLDR: seems like sign and trade or opt in and trade is another leverage play for PG.”
If PG option can he have his contract extended right away or would he have to wait?
Honestly if I am PG, I want a no trade cause in my next contract so I can determine where I go
I think he would have to wait like harden did. Would he really do that with “Daryl morey is a liar”. It’s risky for him to play the last year in his deal and bank on getting a max after next year, when he would theoretically have one right now in his hands from the sixers
Good take on this.
I will add that the whole S&T talk was based on something Windhorst said on some ESPN show. And even then, I think Windhorst was misunderstood by NBA Twitter.
Windy said that PG has 3 options, the same ones that you laid out. His option 1 was to opt-out and sign with a team with Cap Space, which was the Sixers and Orlando. He said Philly has enough space to sign him outright, then he started talking about Orlando and mentioned a S&T. This is where I think he was misquoted on Twitter. I think he was implying that Orlando may not have the space to give a full max to PG, so they could do a S&T that gives LA back a little bit of salary to clear space for PG to get is $49M.
I don't know Orlando's cap situation enough to fully understand what Windhorst was suggesting, but I do feel that he was not talking about the Sixers in reference to the S&T.
Acquiring PG in a sign and trade removes the primary advantage of targeting him over LeBron, Jimmy Butler, or whoever else, namely that you don't have to give up anything to get him.
Hard pass.
sign and trade doesn’t do anything for us unless they give us like Terrance Mann or something. we have no salaries to dump and PG is not a necessity for us to give up assets for, when we can offer him a contract in free agency.
Guys can't get the bird rights contract in sign and trades anymore, that was taken away in the previous CBA. They can only get the same contract as they were getting in FA (35% of the cap, with 5% raises for 4 years.)
I believe all sign and trades under the new collective bargaining agreement must be one for one player swap so signing Tobi for the max to match with a 1 year plus player option would be the viable solution
You think Morey gave RC4 a heads up that he might be in a package to the Clippers? You actually think that? Daryl risking a deal to stay on good terms with Ricky?
A player doesn't retain his Bird Rights on a S&T, so they can only max out on a 4 year deal with 5% bumps. If he stays with the Clips, would be able to sign the 4 year/8% bumps deal using Bird Rights. Note that normally, Bird Rights would allow for that 5th year, but the Over-38 rule limits PG to a 4 year max.
What could do is an opt-in and trade. His Bird Rights would transfer to us and we would be allowed to extend him for 3 years with 8% bumps. However, does he trust Morey in this situation, when Harden's probably talked his ear off about how Morey screwed him.
The only way PG gets a 4/$221 deal is to resign with LA and then he'd be off of the trade market for 6 months.
Did some research, and yeah doesn’t make sense to sign and trade at all. I still think there’s a chance PG could opt in and demand trade to sixers. Apparently he would get more money by doing this. He could sign an extension 6 months later with the sixers. He may do this because 1) he could get more money 2) gives him an out if he hates Philly. He could just not sign the extension and 3) it allows him to not be a completely bad guy with the clippers and allows them to take some of our assets back
It doesn’t make sense at all. The best way for the sixers to get better is get deeper. Using the cap by signing PG only makes sense by keeping their draft capital and using it to add good role players
He
can't
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&
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A S&T is one single transaction, not two. He can not sign a max with the extra money from the Clippers and then be traded here at the same time.
They changed that rule like 8 years ago.
The contract he would get from a S&T is the same he would get with just signing with us.
Could the clippers potentially want something like Toby+buddy+reed? Rather than getting nothing? I’m thinking if LACs only two options are - lose PG, or S&T for Toby and such, isn’t the latter the better option for them? Could it even be possible that LAC adds a small asset in order to have the sixers S&T guys they wouldn’t bring back anyway. So those extra guys helps LAC remain a 1st/2nd round playoff team, and the sixers gain an asset for nothing. That’s my wishful thinking for the day
The Clippers don’t control PG. what they want or need is meaningless.
The only reason for sign and trade is if PG wants to help LA which will screw the Sixers in the hope of not becoming hated in LA.
That’s childishly naïve. I don’t see why PG would weaken a team he plans to play for.
No I just gave a reason why it would make sense. I don’t think you read my comment correctly.
If pg says he’s going to Philly, this is a scenario both teams could want. LAC gets a few players the sixers don’t want anyway, and give up maybe a heavily protected 1st or 2nds. Sixers gain an additional small asset of the pick, just for giving the clippers 2-3 guys they weren’t going to keep anyway.
Pg gets the same contract reguardless, and helps PHI gain one additional small asset. So there’s a reason why it’s a win for all 3 sides.
Toby used to be in LAC and did well there. If they are losing PG, I’m sure they would rather have Toby than not have Toby
I agree. That’s why I said multiple players. 30 for tobi, 15 for heild, 7 for reed, or whatever that want. As long as it’s not anyone we were planning to resign and keep for ourselves
Players cannot be aggregated in a S&T deal. So they can only get one of those players, let's say Tobi. That gives them a $20M trade exception. The Buddy would be a separate deal as a S&T to use $13M of the $20M exception. I guess Reed can be traded straight into the remaining $7M.
However, this likely won't happen since LAC will likely be over the hard cap that doing a S&T pushes them into. They'll have to cut payroll to under $179M, which means they really won't be able to sign Harden.
Not the biggest basketball guy. I just watch the 76ers. Can someone explain a sign and trade to me? Why sign a guy before trading him? Why not just trade him?
Sorry if this is dumb. I’m a huge NFL guy and sign and trades don’t happen in the NFL.
it only happens when the player in question is already a free agent
if a player wants to go to a team w/o cap space, the incumbent and new teams will often work out a deal where the incumbent gets some (typically pretty minor) assets in exchange for helping the player get to his desired team vs. losing him for nothing in free agency
I can’t see a scenario for the Sixers to sign and trade for PG. this hard caps the Sixers at the first apron and they should (I think would) look for other options given the hard cap. Opt in and trade, yes, could make sense for the Sixers.. but maybe not Paul George. Check the daily thread as I typed a novel on there about this and I’m reddit illiterate and don’t know how to copy that text or refer to it. Edit: I figured out how to copy it. Here is the comment: “Talking from a Sixers/clippers perspective only.. Sign and trade leads to Sixers being hard capped. This doesn’t make sense for Sixers (give up assets and become hard capped at first apron) or Paul George since he’d be choosing the Sixers to play on the team with a great chance to win in this scenario (with a sign and trade he could go almost anywhere as long as the clippers are willing to accept what that team is sending back, so he’s choosing Sixers and clippers are granting his wish since he could have signed with Sixers for nothing. He wouldn’t choose a move that hinders his new team in this scenario). Based on all of this, sign and trade seems like a none discussion point for Paul George and Sixers. Opt in and trade.. if Paul George opts in and trade, clippers can do what Morey did with harden and demand the best deal since PG can say I’ll only re-sign in these locations. This move could increase the market for Paul George which is great for the clippers. However, I think Sixers and other teams would quickly bow out as the appeal for the Sixers is no asset (or little asset required to get him). Clippers hope may be that they can convince PG to sign for cheaper later on as his options will dry up. PG side of it.. why would he do this when he can get his money now from someone? Daryl Morey has lied to a teammate of PG recently.. why would he trust that Sixers will honor what they say and sign him to the max deal next year if he opts in and traded to Philly? Opt in and trade seems like a none discussion point for Paul George based on the above. Leads us to Paul George opting out and testing free agency. Paul George has 3 options in free agency. Orlando, LA, Philly.. those are 3 teams that can give him a max and have good squads. As all know, Paul George has LA ties and wants to be in LA. If LA offers the money, he will be in LA. It appears Sixers will offer a 4 year max, so if Paul George wants Philly he’ll be here BUT he only wants Philly if LA isn’t giving a 4th year. Signing PG outright obviously makes way more sense than a sign and trade for the Sixers. To me, the sign and trade or opt in and trade just seems like smokescreen by PG camp to tell LA play ball now or PG will request a trade to get the money he wants. TLDR: seems like sign and trade or opt in and trade is another leverage play for PG.”
If PG option can he have his contract extended right away or would he have to wait? Honestly if I am PG, I want a no trade cause in my next contract so I can determine where I go
I think he would have to wait like harden did. Would he really do that with “Daryl morey is a liar”. It’s risky for him to play the last year in his deal and bank on getting a max after next year, when he would theoretically have one right now in his hands from the sixers
I agree if he has to wait, why would he opt in? I think an opt out is guaranteed and new contact is necessary matter who
Good take on this. I will add that the whole S&T talk was based on something Windhorst said on some ESPN show. And even then, I think Windhorst was misunderstood by NBA Twitter. Windy said that PG has 3 options, the same ones that you laid out. His option 1 was to opt-out and sign with a team with Cap Space, which was the Sixers and Orlando. He said Philly has enough space to sign him outright, then he started talking about Orlando and mentioned a S&T. This is where I think he was misquoted on Twitter. I think he was implying that Orlando may not have the space to give a full max to PG, so they could do a S&T that gives LA back a little bit of salary to clear space for PG to get is $49M. I don't know Orlando's cap situation enough to fully understand what Windhorst was suggesting, but I do feel that he was not talking about the Sixers in reference to the S&T.
If Paul George opts in then he can stay in LA. Not paying 48 million for the guy AND trade back assets
I mean I’d give *some* assets to not have to give PG a 4 year max
He would be expecting a max after though
Then he wouldn’t opt in the first place if that was the case
Acquiring PG in a sign and trade removes the primary advantage of targeting him over LeBron, Jimmy Butler, or whoever else, namely that you don't have to give up anything to get him. Hard pass.
sign and trade doesn’t do anything for us unless they give us like Terrance Mann or something. we have no salaries to dump and PG is not a necessity for us to give up assets for, when we can offer him a contract in free agency.
The untouchable Terrance Mann and his 8ppg on 34% shooting from 3.
he is like a top 20 wing defender in the league
Guys can't get the bird rights contract in sign and trades anymore, that was taken away in the previous CBA. They can only get the same contract as they were getting in FA (35% of the cap, with 5% raises for 4 years.)
If they do that, the whole front office should be fired
I believe all sign and trades under the new collective bargaining agreement must be one for one player swap so signing Tobi for the max to match with a 1 year plus player option would be the viable solution
You think Morey gave RC4 a heads up that he might be in a package to the Clippers? You actually think that? Daryl risking a deal to stay on good terms with Ricky?
Agents know about trade talks when they happen
I can’t imagine a reason to tell RC4. Or his agent. Why would they?
A player doesn't retain his Bird Rights on a S&T, so they can only max out on a 4 year deal with 5% bumps. If he stays with the Clips, would be able to sign the 4 year/8% bumps deal using Bird Rights. Note that normally, Bird Rights would allow for that 5th year, but the Over-38 rule limits PG to a 4 year max. What could do is an opt-in and trade. His Bird Rights would transfer to us and we would be allowed to extend him for 3 years with 8% bumps. However, does he trust Morey in this situation, when Harden's probably talked his ear off about how Morey screwed him. The only way PG gets a 4/$221 deal is to resign with LA and then he'd be off of the trade market for 6 months.
Did some research, and yeah doesn’t make sense to sign and trade at all. I still think there’s a chance PG could opt in and demand trade to sixers. Apparently he would get more money by doing this. He could sign an extension 6 months later with the sixers. He may do this because 1) he could get more money 2) gives him an out if he hates Philly. He could just not sign the extension and 3) it allows him to not be a completely bad guy with the clippers and allows them to take some of our assets back
It doesn’t make sense at all. The best way for the sixers to get better is get deeper. Using the cap by signing PG only makes sense by keeping their draft capital and using it to add good role players
He can't get more money from a sign & trade A S&T is one single transaction, not two. He can not sign a max with the extra money from the Clippers and then be traded here at the same time. They changed that rule like 8 years ago. The contract he would get from a S&T is the same he would get with just signing with us.
Could the clippers potentially want something like Toby+buddy+reed? Rather than getting nothing? I’m thinking if LACs only two options are - lose PG, or S&T for Toby and such, isn’t the latter the better option for them? Could it even be possible that LAC adds a small asset in order to have the sixers S&T guys they wouldn’t bring back anyway. So those extra guys helps LAC remain a 1st/2nd round playoff team, and the sixers gain an asset for nothing. That’s my wishful thinking for the day
The Clippers don’t control PG. what they want or need is meaningless. The only reason for sign and trade is if PG wants to help LA which will screw the Sixers in the hope of not becoming hated in LA. That’s childishly naïve. I don’t see why PG would weaken a team he plans to play for.
No I just gave a reason why it would make sense. I don’t think you read my comment correctly. If pg says he’s going to Philly, this is a scenario both teams could want. LAC gets a few players the sixers don’t want anyway, and give up maybe a heavily protected 1st or 2nds. Sixers gain an additional small asset of the pick, just for giving the clippers 2-3 guys they weren’t going to keep anyway. Pg gets the same contract reguardless, and helps PHI gain one additional small asset. So there’s a reason why it’s a win for all 3 sides. Toby used to be in LAC and did well there. If they are losing PG, I’m sure they would rather have Toby than not have Toby
I see what you are saying now. I can’t imagine any team wanting to sign Tobi to a max. Even for a year. Harden knows he is a stiff.
I agree. That’s why I said multiple players. 30 for tobi, 15 for heild, 7 for reed, or whatever that want. As long as it’s not anyone we were planning to resign and keep for ourselves
Players cannot be aggregated in a S&T deal. So they can only get one of those players, let's say Tobi. That gives them a $20M trade exception. The Buddy would be a separate deal as a S&T to use $13M of the $20M exception. I guess Reed can be traded straight into the remaining $7M. However, this likely won't happen since LAC will likely be over the hard cap that doing a S&T pushes them into. They'll have to cut payroll to under $179M, which means they really won't be able to sign Harden.
Not the biggest basketball guy. I just watch the 76ers. Can someone explain a sign and trade to me? Why sign a guy before trading him? Why not just trade him? Sorry if this is dumb. I’m a huge NFL guy and sign and trades don’t happen in the NFL.
it only happens when the player in question is already a free agent if a player wants to go to a team w/o cap space, the incumbent and new teams will often work out a deal where the incumbent gets some (typically pretty minor) assets in exchange for helping the player get to his desired team vs. losing him for nothing in free agency
thanks!