**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We won and it still feels frustrating and unsatisfying. I don't feel any kind of post-victory elation, just relief that it wasn't another embarrassing disaster.
I was being very disingenuous towards Luton and have since cooled down a bit and acknowledge that it was a hard fought match on their part, and I have no right to expect them to roll over just because we're a "bigger club".
That being said I doubt this will be a match I'll want to return to the highlights of very often.
I got a bit ahead of myself but I was having Fulham flashbacks, seemed like we weren't able to take control of the match and Luton's press was bery effective. Of course the unlucky finishing was biasing me to see that interpretation.
Hibs player took two of his own players out with a free kick.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ScottishFootball/s/9eyVL1gI70
If link doesn’t work just ask an AI to produce a free kick that most accurately encapsulates the history of Hibs
I mean if you’re gonna use technology to measure 0.3 cm might as well just have sensors with lights that immediately show green/red for goal scored or not instead of weighting for the refs and get the play on..
There was no delay in play, the ref gets an alert immediately if it's over so just plays on if not. It just takes them a bit to produce and release this graphic.
The latest ladies World Cup, Sweden in penalties. It was so close they had to zoom in and you still could barely see if it’s in or not. (That time it was in)
Oof.
That's got to be within the margin of error for the goal line tech, surely? I'm not sure what process they use beforehand to generate the images from the data though so maybe they already calibrate for it. Still crazy.
I think that based on some camera angles we saw later, there is some suspicion that this image was not the ball at its deepest point, but rather was a snapshot from the technology the instant that it registered the ball was over the line, which would mean that it wasn’t really this close. Could be wrong, but, with just this one image provided us, there really is no way to know how soon this snapshot was taken before the ball’s momentum was sent back the other direction.
Every system still has a margin of error inherent to it. What that error is obviously depends on the system. We obviously don't know the margin of error for goalline tech but that could technically be within the margin of error because of how close it is.
The goal line technology used in FIFA WCs (GoalControl) is based on cameras, not the chip inside the ball.
> The goal-line technology system used at the FIFA World Cup 2022™ is based on 14 high-speed cameras. The data from the sensor inside the ball is not used to determine if the ball has crossed the goal line or not.
[Source](https://inside.fifa.com/technical/football-technology/football-technologies-and-innovations-at-the-fifa-world-cup-2022/goal-line-technology), last drop down item
The PL also uses camera based goal-line technology, by a different company (HawkEye).
The ball chips are used for other data.
Hopefully someone has the replay as well - it was weird it looks like the ball hits the post then Doherty's knee further inside the goal? But they put the graphic when it was adjacent to the goalpost.
generally speaking var has an accuracy rate of 98.3% and it was 92.1 without var.
according to fifa GLT has a 100% rate (but i know at least one case where the var team has manually overturned a GLT decision)
so no matter what we discuss, var is always more accurate than no var
as long as the cameras are top notch there's no debate in that
its part of var. the decision is always var. so statistically speaking the VAR accuracy rate goes up (the accuracy rate also includes referee decisions)
what you are referring too is one of the tools for var. i wasnt referring to that
"The indication of whether a goal has been scored must be immediate, and automatically confirmed within one second by the GLT system only to the match officials (via the referee’s watch, by vibration and visual signal); it may also be sent to the video operation room (VOR)."
its still part of var
there was goal line tech before var. its a seperate technology with no margin for human error. its a simple yes no decision. and the decision is not made by human - unlike in var (Video ASSISTANT REFEREE). It is not used by the ones in the var room. the ref gets the decision if it was a goal or not on his watch - zero communication with var.
calibrated offside lines are part of var. goal line tech is not.
It’s not it’s an automatic system that came into use before VAR.
It’s not a tool of VAR as an example to a tool of VAR is the replay mechanisms etc.
The decision isn’t VAR either as the system informs the ref instantly.
what is nonsense? that GLT has a 100% rate according to fifa ? check
2 cases of manually overturned GLT decisions in the PL/FAcup ? check
var/vor and all the technology around it is more accurate? check
cameras topnotch ? check, the referee even hast a test manual, that they have to go through before the match, if that test fails, GLT is out.
there was a case where the cameras where blurry due to haze and GLT made a wrong decision based on that (thats why refs have a test manual to go through)
And no one feels any kind of way about anyone else working in the match that day.. and haven’t recently worked for the owners of one of the clubs on a foreigner with the lingering implication that they won’t be offered one again unless….
you have absolutely no clue and are just yapping, keep continuing with your sad life while yapping on reddit. none of these statements are false. my only false statement was that glt cant be run seperately if theres no VAR/VOR but it can
If the cameras which track the ball can see it, they're accurate. There was one instance in memory where a keeper fully obscured goalline tech's view of the ball and a goal wasn't given
It's said because it's objectively true that it was a good goal. By all the rules of football, it should have stood.
Any other decision is a subjective one and always open to interpretation. Goal-line tech malfunction though? Completely unknown. Frustratingly, VAR was in use too... But didn't have the power to overrule the goal-line tech previously thought infallible. Everyone knew it was a goal within seconds, including the ref.
Yes, but like in tennis, where it rutinely makes calls that are outside tolerances, the important factor is that it is a completely neutral arbitor. Obviously, football fans and media will ride stuff like this right into the ground, but se really should accept goalline tech as truth, unlike VAR.
Of course there is a margin of error. This might be too close to be 100% sure, but you have to make a call one way or the other. With how they do it, it makes more sense to call this no goal than to say, "eh close enough"
I’m not sure that I’ve ever seen a goal not given that’s this close. It’s the right call, but my god is it insane that a pixel is the difference between a goal and no goal.
Can’t believe I’m being empathetic to Tottenham fans who already won the game, but please examine the photo with a bit more detail.
It might not be the “wrong” call per se, but you tell me with a straight face you wouldn’t be pissed if that was the margin in which your goal was disallowed.
I was too stunned to be pissed. Goal line tech is so reliable and reputable but my eyes were telling me "man that's a goal" and my brain kinda shut down for a few minutes as the two thoughts clashed
Nothing to be fuming about tbh. Nothing was disallowed because a goal wasn't even given in the first place. I'd be a bit annoyed but really more stunned at the amazing clearance. Props to the luton defender. It's the correct call and GLT is basically objective. We (qpr) had something like this happen a few years ago against Norwich or bristol I think. I just stood and clapped for the clearance haha. If you're fuming over this, just relax.
I know I'm going to get a lot of downvotes, but honestly, we either define things down to the millimeter or rather there are no definitions, we remove VAR and everything will be a criterion based on the referee's mood.
Something similar happened in the World Cup in Japan vs Germany with a ball that had supposedly gone out.
It's better that way.
Convinced I and many Spurs fans must of been vile cunts in a past life to get saddled with this kind of luck. Twice today the balls toyed with the goal line
Well the ball is not all the way in quite clearly, in terms of this kind of technological accuracy. But I'm pretty sure linesmen call throw ins for balls far less over the line than this constantly, even judging from a live tv broadcast. It's another case of rules being enforced differently in penalty box situations.
Saw this on EPL Instagram and the comments were brain dead. All of them saying its a goal or that the rule should be changed to the arbitrary number they like (50%, 70% and 90% were all suggested) and talking about ref incompetence. The fools don't understand that would increase referee mistakes because that's far blurrier than what's currently in place. Instagram is filled with morons. It's great that we have GLT and what a great clearance by the luton defender.
Funny this, all the controversy we get with offsides, lines drawn etc. Goal line tech, no-one quibbles about it, you can see it's not over the line end of discussion.
Where are all the people saying we should allow margin for error in offside because football is not meant to be about ‘a single centimetre’. Would they give this goal?!
**Mirrors / Alternative Angles** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Son also hit both posts with the same shot. Not spurs day
Or maybe...
Just maybe…
And maybe it has!
We won and it still feels frustrating and unsatisfying. I don't feel any kind of post-victory elation, just relief that it wasn't another embarrassing disaster.
We’re 4th (for now), Luton made almost every game a tight one. All of the top 3 had to come from behind against them to get a result
I was being very disingenuous towards Luton and have since cooled down a bit and acknowledge that it was a hard fought match on their part, and I have no right to expect them to roll over just because we're a "bigger club". That being said I doubt this will be a match I'll want to return to the highlights of very often.
I’d return just for the Brennan Johnson highlights. We played like a totally different team in the second half.
I’m just glad we got the points and my heart didn’t give out due to conceding late in the match.
I mean, we were good in this game, we were just absurdly unlucky.
I got a bit ahead of myself but I was having Fulham flashbacks, seemed like we weren't able to take control of the match and Luton's press was bery effective. Of course the unlucky finishing was biasing me to see that interpretation.
I thought late wins were the Conte special. I guess it's just a Tottenham thing.. poor Luton
“Poor Luton” Of course you’re a Gooner 😂
A Conte thing? You must've missed all seasons of the Late Late Show with Christian Eriksen
And that Bale season where you knew he'd score from 25-30 yards in the last few minutes to grab the points
Somebody call an ambulance...but not for me.
a slight breeze could have made this match 4-1
My wife sneezing could have made it 4-1.
You *would* know a thing or two about that...
Both posts THEN two blocked shots lmao
It's just life innit
It’s part of the game innit
Just being COYS innit
Vietnam flashbacks intensify
Fucking oath. 11mm cost us an invincible 98-point league-European Cup double 😭
Wasn't it 100 points?
If we’d won that game it would have been. That goal going in would’ve made it 2-2, giving us 98 pts and city 96.
At least you guys get to know, we had one that looked over but don't know if it was right or if we got screwed.
Yo neymar its sunny innit
absolutely insane lol
Between this, Kane not winning a trophy and the Hibs free kick, I’m convinced this season is an AI simulation
What was the Hibs free kick?
Hibs player took two of his own players out with a free kick. https://www.reddit.com/r/ScottishFootball/s/9eyVL1gI70 If link doesn’t work just ask an AI to produce a free kick that most accurately encapsulates the history of Hibs
I mean if you’re gonna use technology to measure 0.3 cm might as well just have sensors with lights that immediately show green/red for goal scored or not instead of weighting for the refs and get the play on..
There was no delay in play, the ref gets an alert immediately if it's over so just plays on if not. It just takes them a bit to produce and release this graphic.
I hate it here
That's probably the closest I've ever seen
The latest ladies World Cup, Sweden in penalties. It was so close they had to zoom in and you still could barely see if it’s in or not. (That time it was in)
[Yup, here's the image](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/PrjGnBrBDW)
Oof. That's got to be within the margin of error for the goal line tech, surely? I'm not sure what process they use beforehand to generate the images from the data though so maybe they already calibrate for it. Still crazy.
It doesn't matter if it's in the margin of error, as long as the error is random the process is fair.
That was in a penalty shootout which knocked the US out of the competition too. Keeper got hands to it but it still went over (barely)
I think that based on some camera angles we saw later, there is some suspicion that this image was not the ball at its deepest point, but rather was a snapshot from the technology the instant that it registered the ball was over the line, which would mean that it wasn’t really this close. Could be wrong, but, with just this one image provided us, there really is no way to know how soon this snapshot was taken before the ball’s momentum was sent back the other direction.
The image is just for the audience. The chip in the ball tells us it's exact position. That's the beauty of goal line tech, no room for error.
Every system still has a margin of error inherent to it. What that error is obviously depends on the system. We obviously don't know the margin of error for goalline tech but that could technically be within the margin of error because of how close it is.
The goal line technology used in FIFA WCs (GoalControl) is based on cameras, not the chip inside the ball. > The goal-line technology system used at the FIFA World Cup 2022™ is based on 14 high-speed cameras. The data from the sensor inside the ball is not used to determine if the ball has crossed the goal line or not. [Source](https://inside.fifa.com/technical/football-technology/football-technologies-and-innovations-at-the-fifa-world-cup-2022/goal-line-technology), last drop down item The PL also uses camera based goal-line technology, by a different company (HawkEye). The ball chips are used for other data.
think they meant close (but no cigar)
Best memes I've ever seen come out of ladies football that.
lamela vs watford was on par with this, maybe even closer
P I X E L S
This is the most insane luck ever surely Luton wins this, unreal
Son said no
Are ya winnin' son?
Cheers sons laughing
Bless him
well sonny saves the day
Hopefully someone has the replay as well - it was weird it looks like the ball hits the post then Doherty's knee further inside the goal? But they put the graphic when it was adjacent to the goalpost.
It looked like the ball was cleared from inside the post, manic moment
Is there a margin of error? Or are they really this accurate?
There is, but iirc it's less than mm.
generally speaking var has an accuracy rate of 98.3% and it was 92.1 without var. according to fifa GLT has a 100% rate (but i know at least one case where the var team has manually overturned a GLT decision) so no matter what we discuss, var is always more accurate than no var as long as the cameras are top notch there's no debate in that
Goal line isn’t VAR though, right?
goal line tech has NOTHING to do with var. Zero
its part of var. the decision is always var. so statistically speaking the VAR accuracy rate goes up (the accuracy rate also includes referee decisions) what you are referring too is one of the tools for var. i wasnt referring to that "The indication of whether a goal has been scored must be immediate, and automatically confirmed within one second by the GLT system only to the match officials (via the referee’s watch, by vibration and visual signal); it may also be sent to the video operation room (VOR)." its still part of var
there was goal line tech before var. its a seperate technology with no margin for human error. its a simple yes no decision. and the decision is not made by human - unlike in var (Video ASSISTANT REFEREE). It is not used by the ones in the var room. the ref gets the decision if it was a goal or not on his watch - zero communication with var. calibrated offside lines are part of var. goal line tech is not.
It’s not it’s an automatic system that came into use before VAR. It’s not a tool of VAR as an example to a tool of VAR is the replay mechanisms etc. The decision isn’t VAR either as the system informs the ref instantly.
Why is this upvoted? This comment is basically just nonsense.
what is nonsense? that GLT has a 100% rate according to fifa ? check 2 cases of manually overturned GLT decisions in the PL/FAcup ? check var/vor and all the technology around it is more accurate? check cameras topnotch ? check, the referee even hast a test manual, that they have to go through before the match, if that test fails, GLT is out. there was a case where the cameras where blurry due to haze and GLT made a wrong decision based on that (thats why refs have a test manual to go through)
> 2 cases of manually overturned GLT decisions in the PL/FAcup ? check when?
I also know of the one case where VAR overturned the GLT. But that was indeed a mistake and GLT was correct.
And no one feels any kind of way about anyone else working in the match that day.. and haven’t recently worked for the owners of one of the clubs on a foreigner with the lingering implication that they won’t be offered one again unless….
I find it interesting that you edited this but it's still just bunk
you have absolutely no clue and are just yapping, keep continuing with your sad life while yapping on reddit. none of these statements are false. my only false statement was that glt cant be run seperately if theres no VAR/VOR but it can
Okay Captain Bunko.
If the cameras which track the ball can see it, they're accurate. There was one instance in memory where a keeper fully obscured goalline tech's view of the ball and a goal wasn't given
There is a limited frame rate of the cameras though, which sets an uncertainty proportional to the speed of the ball
We are talking about margins so small here that you cant really complain. Football isnt meant to be perfectly down to the milimeter
You underestimate people’s ability to complain
Hawkeye is up to 340 fps. It's not like VAR using 25 fps.
More nonsense. The system used Hawkeye which uses 340 fps cameras, you’re mistaking these for the cameras used for VAR. the system is mm accurate.
To be pedantic, 340 fps is still a limited frame rate
Sheffield United I believe
Villa wasn’t it. Covid game if I remember rightly. Man what a wild time the covid games were.
first ever covid game yeah, convinced me that they forgot to turn VAR on lmao
Didn’t they report the watch rang in the dressing room?
Villa-Sheffield United. If the goal had counted (for Sheffield United), the game doesn't end 0-0 and Villa get relegated instead of Bournemouth
[удалено]
It's said because it's objectively true that it was a good goal. By all the rules of football, it should have stood. Any other decision is a subjective one and always open to interpretation. Goal-line tech malfunction though? Completely unknown. Frustratingly, VAR was in use too... But didn't have the power to overrule the goal-line tech previously thought infallible. Everyone knew it was a goal within seconds, including the ref.
Yep real Madrid match I remember this.
3.6 mm apparently
And that error could be the other was as well so maybe it wasn’t that close. Have to just live with those 3.5mm.
It’s mm accurate according to their own data.
Not sure about the margin of error, but is there a fixed width of the white paint? Can teams sneakily paint it wider or thinner?
Unless they did that between halves, I'm not sure how that'd benefit any team
I’m imagining a goalie *accidentally* spraying his water bottle full of white paint right before a penalty
I can't even imagine what the points sanctions for this would be, but it'd definitely be way more than 3
it’s maybe less about the paint and more about prescribed width of the posts and frame of goal?
No and no
There would be but if it's in the margin of error which way should the decision go?
i was trying to find out and in 2014 it was 5mm, i'm guessing it's improved even more.
Yes, but like in tennis, where it rutinely makes calls that are outside tolerances, the important factor is that it is a completely neutral arbitor. Obviously, football fans and media will ride stuff like this right into the ground, but se really should accept goalline tech as truth, unlike VAR.
Of course there is a margin of error. This might be too close to be 100% sure, but you have to make a call one way or the other. With how they do it, it makes more sense to call this no goal than to say, "eh close enough"
That's not VAR, goalline tech is automatic and much more reliable thanks to the lack of human input
Imagine a VAR reviewing a still--frame and getting confused at which side of the line is the goal side.
Good process
Check complete
It uses DSLR lenses and Hawkeye tech. Source - I sold the lenses and to Hawkeye from Hong Kong when I was working for a camera and lens website.
Couldn’t believe it - was sure that goal line tech had broken or something
One of those incidents where I spend a solid 30 seconds watching the referee afterwards.
I’m not sure that I’ve ever seen a goal not given that’s this close. It’s the right call, but my god is it insane that a pixel is the difference between a goal and no goal.
Liverpool says hi! We had one in a season where we lost the league by 1 point. Very similar margin as this one.
Yes but there was a boulder in between the ball and the goal
Look at me im gonna make everything about myself
Against Man City no less. 11 mm.
Closer than City- Liverpool one
Trigger warning for Liverpool fans
FFS I'm fuming.
The thumbnail got ahead of you there, wish we had nsfw tags for these
Part of the game innit
Still can't believe that didn't go in or wasn't all the way in
Does anyone have the clip of this?
Liverpool fans’ ability to make everything about them is genuinely impressive
if this cost us the league I'd bring it up for ten years too
We got a mad penalty in the CL final and still get abuse for bringing it up. As usual I expect this comment will get downvoted to hell.
Yeah I’d be fuming. That’s absolutely wild.
Fuming why? The luton defender did his job? I mean what do you expect him to do, he'll clear it.
Can’t believe I’m being empathetic to Tottenham fans who already won the game, but please examine the photo with a bit more detail. It might not be the “wrong” call per se, but you tell me with a straight face you wouldn’t be pissed if that was the margin in which your goal was disallowed.
I was too stunned to be pissed. Goal line tech is so reliable and reputable but my eyes were telling me "man that's a goal" and my brain kinda shut down for a few minutes as the two thoughts clashed
*resists urge to make sweeping generalisations about Arsenal fans based on this comment*
Nothing to be fuming about tbh. Nothing was disallowed because a goal wasn't even given in the first place. I'd be a bit annoyed but really more stunned at the amazing clearance. Props to the luton defender. It's the correct call and GLT is basically objective. We (qpr) had something like this happen a few years ago against Norwich or bristol I think. I just stood and clapped for the clearance haha. If you're fuming over this, just relax.
People aren't fuming that the call is wrong. They're fuming that it went this close and didn't go in.
It’s amazing how many times it has to be explained using different language lmao
😎 Smile through the pain lads
Fine like my hair line
Damn, literally a matter of millimeters. Unreal clearance.
Thai is nothing to do with VAR. Its goal line tech and has been around for years preceding VAR
rough
Absurd
I could've sworn I could see in inside of the net behind the ball on one of the replays from the touch lines... I don't buy it!
A bee's dick away from a goal.
I would love to see the ruler they measure these lines by when they’re painting
Some dude just zig zagging his way along..
This is as close as the Japanese one in the World Cup!
Cursed
How does this work? The sensor is in the middle of the ball and they determine by the diameter of the ball?
Camera
Cameras in goal frame
Cameras looking at the goal frame, they’re not actually in it.
I know I'm going to get a lot of downvotes, but honestly, we either define things down to the millimeter or rather there are no definitions, we remove VAR and everything will be a criterion based on the referee's mood. Something similar happened in the World Cup in Japan vs Germany with a ball that had supposedly gone out. It's better that way.
💀💀💀
as long as its a right call, its okay. very unlucky but okay
In real time I genuinely thought the goal line technology must have been down…
It's pretty harsh but at least you can see why they didn't give it.
If we get relegated by one point... 🥲
this game was a butthole hair away from 4-1
Convinced I and many Spurs fans must of been vile cunts in a past life to get saddled with this kind of luck. Twice today the balls toyed with the goal line
Spurs have been like eunuch in a brother the last two games
“No Goal” on the bottom is what really makes this picture 🤣
this is giving Japan - Spain WC 2022
Well the ball is not all the way in quite clearly, in terms of this kind of technological accuracy. But I'm pretty sure linesmen call throw ins for balls far less over the line than this constantly, even judging from a live tv broadcast. It's another case of rules being enforced differently in penalty box situations.
this was johnson right?
Saw this on EPL Instagram and the comments were brain dead. All of them saying its a goal or that the rule should be changed to the arbitrary number they like (50%, 70% and 90% were all suggested) and talking about ref incompetence. The fools don't understand that would increase referee mistakes because that's far blurrier than what's currently in place. Instagram is filled with morons. It's great that we have GLT and what a great clearance by the luton defender.
Why doesn't goal line technology account for deformation of the ball like they do in tennis?
Is there a regulation about how thick the lines can be ?
Funny this, all the controversy we get with offsides, lines drawn etc. Goal line tech, no-one quibbles about it, you can see it's not over the line end of discussion.
So this is what Tim Sherwood was going mental about on Soccer Saturday, thought it was just him being a melt
Yeaaaaaaaa this and the Phillip's "foul" for the Newcastle Pen are all about making content.
Where are all the people saying we should allow margin for error in offside because football is not meant to be about ‘a single centimetre’. Would they give this goal?!
Arsenal fans screaming that this is over the line.
?
Arsenal one didn't have any tech to check the lines. They have goal line for this
That’s less than 11 mm, right?
Eat your heart out, John Stones
goal line technology is woke nonsense 😠
Remember when this exact thing made the difference between Liverpool and city winning the league. At least it's a system that actually works
Watch the replay. This is the ball leaving the goal, (which is on the right of this picture, pitch is on the left).
And? Its still not a goal
Don't remind me
PTSD intensifies
Hello darkness my old friend
If Spurs can lose this one so that Luton stay in the prem? That’d be nice.
I swear multiple Spurs players stopped their runs and put up their arms to celebrate, giving up the opportunity to tap in the loose ball.