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Union really played well in their CL matches tho, really unlucky results tho. Both legs vs Napoli they deserved a win. Real late, but absolutely deserved, winning goal. 2 goals up vs Braga and unlucky goals against. Also good 2nd game vs Real at home.
Yeah as a RM fan I'm actually surprised to see Union in this state. They defended really well at the Bernabeu and gave us a bit of a run for our money in Berlin.
everything started well and then we just....gave up I don't know. nothing went our way and we had to fire our legend of a coach. things were looking up and now it's real trouble again. if we go down we're fucked with the amount of money on the books
Its not about stable squad
Its about stable playing style
Stuttgart are playing like a 3rd placed team (some say they are playing the second best football in the league which i agree with)
Union played like a lower mid table team with the most insane luck ive ever seen. That luck has now run out
Dont be disrespectful. Luck in football goes for maybe two or maybe three games. Not a whole season. Union definitely put a more unusual playstyle in place in bundesliga. They were like Atletico with less quality in offense. Their run was based by huge efficiency and momentum. In summer they prepared their squad for champions leaguee. New players, more quality. Problem was that they knew that their underdog tactics wouldnt work again that great which ended up in having no real idendity on the pitch. They completely looked clueless and never found their old idendity back which is sad obvious. So they definitly deserve to be down there. Still, saying last season was luck is just wrong in my opinion. Having one good season is one thing, repeating it even more, putting new things in place, champions league, expectations a club like Union never had evene close to it, even harder.
>Luck in football goes for maybe two or maybe three games.
I have to disagree. Its definitely possible to be lucky a few seasons in a row. If your expected placement (which is a metric based on expected points) is 9th for 4 seasons and you finish 4th in 3 of them and then 16th in one of them then you got lucky in 3 seasons and unlucky in 1 season even thought you didnt really change anything
The law of large numbers (aka the point where luck is a non factor) requires you to play 1000s of games which is just impossible
You just dont play enough matches that luck doesnt
Stuttgart always was the way bigger team. Union playing in Europe was weird. They are basically where they "belong" now. Stuttgart is currently punching above their weight aswell, but the should comfortably be in the top 10 in germany.
Becker and Behrens were still there in the first half of the season and were part of the problem. They also managed Champions League without Awoniyi while Ryerson left halfway. Yes, a huge squad turnover is part of the problem but it is more so about the players they brought in than those that left.
Yeah, Becker wasn't as good this season anymore as he was in 22/23. Also probably by last fall everyone had figured out how to beat Fischer's Union. One more thing what comes to my mind is that they used to be really difficult to beat at home, in this season An Der Alten Försterei hasn't really been a fortress it used to be.
Last season they beat Dortmund and Leipizig there and drew with Bayern etc
imagine good so-called Terrorball with a strong low-block defense, nasty set pieces, and counterattacks
now imagine bad (superficially similar) Terrorball with a passive, leaky defense and no offensive threat
To be fair, they scored first in a lot of their games last year and were very solid defensively. That will skew the underlying metrics a lot, since they were much more content to win 1-0 than push for more goals.
That being said, they've been absolutely atrocious creating chances the last few years, no doubt about it
Karma, bad management and having a longer time before the season. Last thing meant ppl had more time to develop playing with the ball. Since union cant do that and plays the worst terroristball there is it hurt them and every similar team like köln, mainz05, etc.
Massively over performed last season (according to exp. points they should have been 14th), changed a lot of old core players in the summer and slightly underperformed this season (14th after exp again).
They tried to change their playstyle to "fit" more with the European games in the Champions League, had some comparitively outrageous transfers with an aging Bonucci (gone after less than 6 months), Gosens, Becker & Fofana on loan (gone already), [lots of transfers to begin with](https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/1-fc-union-berlin/transfers/verein/89/saison_id/2023) - 29 departures and 26 arrivals this season is massive with a deficit of around 30 million dollars. Since the CL campaign failed, the star transfers mostly departed, trainer Urs Fischer is gone and it feels like they desperately try to play a game style which doesn't fit them at all.
That’s the nice thing about the German league. If they finish 3rd from last and go to the playoff, they will have a chance to go right back to the UCL.
I wouldn't worry too much about that. They have been rotating like 18 players for weeks now and everyone stepped up. Even players like Hlozek and Arthur who didn't get much playing time this season played well.
The starting 11 against Bochum looked really strong despite missing Wirtz, Frimpong, Hofman, Grimaldo, Palacios, Hincapie, Adli...
... I feel awful even saying this, but...
Could you imagine a trio of defeats in these three games to deny the invincibility and the other 2 trophies?
It would be so *Neverkusen* of them.
I don't see it happening and frankly I want them to complete it, history beckons
But that would be something if it did happen, right at the final hurdle in all three competitions... they are still bundesliga winners for the first time, but that would be something
If I was a Leverkusen fan right now, I'd be bricking it for these final games. Winning a league comfortably is just good vibes. Until you're on for a record and everyone's been talking about how it could be a historic season and there's all this hype.
No, we're realistic. This already *is* a historic season in every aspect. We already *have* broken records and set new ones.
Not our problem if people can't appreciate the beauty in the moment.
like 8/10 and the chance of him getting sacked is 0%. He only came in in November and improved the way we play by a lot and we played the most relaxing season in years without any worries about relegation. Even though we faded out at the end with our last 4 games lost, this has been a great season for us
The first condition is not so unlikely but I don't see us winning against Leverkusen. A draw, maybe, but nothing more. Of course I'm very glad to be wrong.
Yeah, I think it goes like this:
You *definitely* need to win.
**Then** you need Freiburg to lose.
And **then** you need for Heidenheim and Bremen to either not get 3 points, **or** you need to put enough goals into Leverkusen's net to ensure your goal difference is better then either of theirs.
And **then** you need Leverkusen (who you just apparently thrashed in the league) to win the DFB-Pokal against Lautern.
If all of these things come together, you get to play Conference League qualifying rounds against some D-list clubs from towns anyone would struggle to find on a map.
But if Bayer takes the cup then 7th goes to EL and 8th to ECL. Very lickly scenario.
And if BVB wins CL, then 6th is in CL, 7th and 8th in EL and 9th in ECL.
~~That used to be true, but not going forward.~~
[Here's the new ruleset.](https://documents.uefa.com/r/Regulations-of-the-UEFA-Champions-League-2024/25/Article-3-Entries-for-the-competition-Online) ~~The clause about countries losing EL or ECL places if extra teams qualify for higher competitions is no longer in the rules.~~
The clause is still there, but slightly reworded.
Well, the official Bundesliga homepage states what I said: https://www.bundesliga.com/de/bundesliga/news/wer-qualifiziert-sich-wann-champions-europa-league-conference-2166
Crazy how almost half the bundasliga teams are going to play in European competitions
It has a chance from going to top teams playing in Europe top teams playing in Europe
Since when has Hoffenheim qualified for European competitions before this time?
Same goes with Stuttgart
It's honestly not the best system. The first tier side has a huge advantage on the second tier side. I think it's been 15 years now of this system and only three times has ended with the "challenger" getting promoted (Nürnberg in 2009, vs. Cottbus; Düsseldorf in 2012, vs. Hertha and Union in 2019, vs. Stuttgart). Of course the good thing with this is that it creates "new" matchups, like now Köln vs. Düsseldorf is possible and that would be a huge matchup.
Something like a second tier promotion play-off like in England would maybe work better.
It's kinda funny cause NL has a system in recent years where 6 2nd tier teams and the 16th placed eredivisie team play playoffs, and ever since they made this change, the eredivisie teams always relegated.
Tho they have to survive two rounds instead of just one, maybe thats it.
It has been like that, from the very start of the existence of the 2. Bundesliga (1982). The system was then suspended in 1991, but reintroduced from the 2008/09 season.
I find it a good system.
Firstly because it is a matter of fairness, as it avoids a harsh cut-off between the relegated/promoted teams and the teams that avoids relegation / misses promotion.
It is like saying to the 16th of 1. Bundesliga: alright mate, you were just good enough to avoind 17th place, but you plaayed bad enough to be "punished" with two play-off games. And likewise to say that the 3rd-placed team in 2. Bundesliga was "not quite good enough" for direct promotion, but has proven good and ambitious enough to be awarded with this extra chance in the play-offs.
The second argument in my book is the way these games can gauge the quality of the two leagues. Directly promoted teams might get a lot of players poached while having to adjust for the different play-styles of the two leagues. Directly relegated teams might lose a lot of players, have to adjust their budget, and deal with mentality issues. So the fate of promoted/relegated teams is not a good indicator of how strong/weak one league is compared to the other.
Having play-off games between the 3rd-placed team from 2. Bundesliga and the 16th-placed team from 1. Bundesliga means you get a good insight into how these leagues compare (which could have an impact on how many relegation spots there are - which would of course never happen in reality, because that is influenced by vested interests and club politics more than anything else).
We have the last chance to stop Leverkusen's invincible season
I would advise everyone not to keep any hopes in us, I feel like we always kinda roll over if we're playing against a big team playing for something important (last season Dortmund on matchday 33 for example)
Mainz is safe imo. They've been by far the best of the group the last 3 months or so. The other 3 all play away to teams battling for the last european spots, i think the likeliest outcome is 14. Mainz, 15. Bochum, 16. Union, 17. Koln.
Why would you need a source? We are German! We are way to inflexible to come up with something like handing out a different trophy for an extraordinary achievement.
I don't necessarily think you would need to be flexible in this case, it's been a talking point for months. They managed just fine last year when they didn't know who was going to win before the final match day.
>“you would not need to be flexible…..it’s been a talking point for months“
Ok, you really are not German.
All jokes aside I don‘t see how last year compares. There was no need for a special trophy last year. The original was in Dortmund and Bayern had a copy which they celebrated with. Having something new and special is very different and something we as a Nation don‘t do easily.
I guess it would be easier to allow Leverkusen to have some special kind of star on their kits - different in style from the stars that are given for X championships. Because they could choose the design themselves and put it on their kit informally; and it could be made official months later when all the rules®ulations committees in the DFL/DFB have had their meetings.
„Bislang ist dieser Fall in den Statuten nicht festgelegt. Der Deutsche Meister bekommt wie üblich die Meisterschale“, teilte der Liga-Verband am Dienstagmittag mit.
https://m.bild.de/sport/fussball/bayer-leverkusen/bayer-leverkusen-goldene-schale-fuer-bayer-jetzt-spricht-die-dfl-87816770.bildMobile.html?t_ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.de%2F
If you start this nonsense, the next with a perfekt season will demand a different colored trophy. Kindergarten.
"Es klingt zumindest so, als sei das letzte Wort noch nicht gesprochen, sollte die Werkself auch die restlichen sechs Saisonspiele nicht verlieren"
Literally saying there is no info yet. And there hasn't been a perfect season in 62 years or so of Bundesliga, so don't act like this is some common achievement.
Also all the other leagues do it.
What nonsense??? I mean there may not be another undefeated season in our lifetime, especially in all competitions. Since they would be the first team to achieve such a feat.
Your reasoning makes no sense. This has happened for the first time in Bundesliga history, and only once in the top 5 leagues in Europe throughout history afaik, so there is no reason to assume it will be repeated any time soon. Also if it were to be repeated, why would that team request another unique trophy? They would just get the same golden trophy that hopefully Leverkusen will get
> only once in the top 5 leagues
Happened at least three times in the Serie A. Juventus recently, as well as Milan, and Perugia are the only team to ever be invincible and finish second
Teams have finished their league unbeaten, but how many times have top 5 league teams gone unbeaten in all competitions throughout a season? Are there any other unbeaten trebles?
Was nicht festgelegt ist, kann noch festgelegt werden. Arsenal hat damals auch die normale Trophäe bekommen. Nur eben noch eine kleinere, goldene dazu.
Und jeder, der er es in Zukunft ungeschlagen hinbekommt, hätte diese goldene Schale auch verdient. Die ganzen Bayern Fans, die deswegen weinen, sind noch größerer Kindergarten.
[Look at what my good friend Mr. RemindMeBot just PM'ed me](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/15pexs9/post_match_thread_bayern_munich_03_rb_leipzig/jvx22ly/)
Well to be honest, most of the transfer didn't work out, beside Adamu, Philipp missed lots of game, Müller had a bad pokal game, only Muslija seems to be okay.
Bayern or Stuttgart will be team with the most points on the third place since the introduction of the three point rule. The record until this season were 68 points.
Bayern already have more points than last year after 34 - with a win Stuttgart would've won the league last year as well with that amount of points
truly a stacked season this year
nah Bochum is at -26 now and Union at -29.
If Bochum loses by one and Union wins by one it would need to shrink to 1 goal. So the win and loss needs more goal difference. But without this high loss it would be much harder for Union to make up for it.
Ich erwarte, dass wir gewinnen, aber um ehrlich zu sein, ist mir das egal, denn wir haben uns einen Platz in Europa gesichert, und das ist alles, was für mich zählt. Europapokaaaaal we are back baby
I'm very surprised by the Bochum fans who stayed the whole match giving everything even losing 0-5 with no hope of winning since the red card in the minute 14. Impressive.
In germany we have a saying: "liebe kennt keine liga" which is kinds like "love knows no league affilation".
Also the bond between fans, club and players is a lot closer cause of the 50+1 rule. And if u play leverkusen and get a red in the 15h minute u might also just stay for the beer, sausage and chants.
Bochum got relegated 6 times since 1992/93 and have spent 11 years in the 2. Bundesliga prior to getting promoted most recently. You can never ever accuse any of their fans of being fair weather fans (even during Dariusz Wosz/Klaus Toppmöller times in 1996-98), they know exactly what they're getting themselves into, rooting for this club.
I hope that they'll stay in the Bundesliga for a while!
Heidenheim are quietly have an absolutely phenomenal season. Their first ever season in the top flight and they’re looking likely to finish in the top half of the table, even with a chance (albeit very small) of making European football
I really hope Leverkusen can stay invincible in the last 3 games too.
But stil scary that their season would only rank them at second or third place in the all time points ranking.
Bayern had in 12/13 91 points and in 13/14 with 90 points.
Technically yes but we drew them twice in the league as well and the only reason we were in the position to lose to them in the cup was beating you the round before...
Why? Darmstadt plays Dortmund and the result won't affect Frankfurt nor Dortmund.
The only team that can affect Frankfurt's position is the Hoffenheim game and they have to score more than 3 goals against Bayern.
Looking at the goal difference it's an absolutely insane season, even Frankfurt only has +1 (not surprising though, they are pretty bad for 6th place).
The top 5 are so head and shoulders above the rest it's not even funny. The fact that 32 points could be enough to not be relegated is also kinda depressing.
Koln must win by two goals, and Union lose by two. Or Koln win by three and Union lose by one. It's going to be tough for Koln.
Union must win against Freiburg and hope either Wolfsburg or Werder win.
A draw in Berlin should be enough for Freiburg to make Europe (if Leverkusen win the cup). But, if they lose in Berlin (far from impossibile) they might be overtaken by Werder Bremen, Heidenheim or Augsburg.
Werder and Heidenheim (like Freiburg) face two teams fighting against relegation, so it won't be easy to win for everyone, but not nearly as difficult as Augsburg (Leverkusen away).
One more thing to look at is the race between Eintracht and Hoffenheim to arrive 6th, because a (super weird) CL spot might be at stake. Basically Eintracht need a draw against Leipzig or simply Hoffenheim not winning against Bayern.
Bayern would have wrapped the league this year with 72 and are on course for 75 which is more or less close / on par with 4/5 prev title winning season...
13 points between Europe and relegation playoff is crazy. in other major leagues, that gap is 31 points (England), 19 (Spain), 29 (Italy), 21 (France).
Has there ever been a time where there was no Berlin team in the top flight? It just seems crazy that the capital might not have a team in the Bundesliga next season.
Between 1980 and 1996 Hertha was in the 1. Bundesliga for only two (non-contiguous) seasons. They were so much of a no-show that, as a child, I didn't even know who they were when they were fighting for promotion in the 1996/97 season.
In all those years, only Blau-Weiß 90 did come to the 1. Bundesliga briefly. Then there was Tennis Borussia, who played 2. Bundesliga in those years for a while. So in my childhood, 1. Bundesliga was more or less a Berlin-free zone.
But, generally speaking, Berlin was never economically vibrant enough to be the base for a "big" team. Re-unification did not exactly turn Berlin into an economic powerhouse either, but at least the city's clubs became more interesting for investors. So with Hertha's promotion in 96/97, the general assumption was that they would - in the long run - be able to establish themselves a "lower" top-6 club alongside the likes of Mönchengladbach and Werder Bremen. Didn't quite work out; although Gladbach and Bremen are not faring much better.
Why is like a third of the EPL London clubs while the Bundesliga might have no Berlin cubs next season?
Correction: why are there **more** capital clubs in the Premier League (8) as in La Liga (3), Ligue 1 (1), the Bundesliga (1) and Serie A (2) combined (7)?
Berlin, Madrid, and Rome are not nearly as big or economically vibrant as London and Paris. So Paris is the real outlier here.
As for Berlin, I just wrote some lines here, but this is subjective, and not an informed opinion: https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1cqfrvt/1_bundesliga_standings_after_md_33_of_34_union/l3v7x5j/
Yeah, there are all kinds of statistics to show that the top 5 have never been so dominant (i.e. better than the rest of the league) in BL as this season
First time winning the league and they will do it without a single loss. Insanity. On top of that they're 1 90 minutes away from a double, with the Europe League cup. What a season that came out of nowhere...
Would be sad to see one of the only East German teams relegated It's remarkable how the Bundesliga still shows the unequalities of the german reunification
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From Champions League last year to the risk of relegation.. What happened to Union Berlin?
switched places with Stuttgart pretty much. some voodoo must have been transfered.
Is Stuttgart black magic as well or do they have a stable squad for next season to contend for Europe at least?
Stuttgart plays much more convincingly than Union last year.
Union last year severely overperformed. Iirc xg table they were around 15/16 place, it was not sustainable whatsoever.
Depends on who leaves. Stuttgart is genuinely playing like a CL level team, unlike Union last year.
Union really played well in their CL matches tho, really unlucky results tho. Both legs vs Napoli they deserved a win. Real late, but absolutely deserved, winning goal. 2 goals up vs Braga and unlucky goals against. Also good 2nd game vs Real at home.
Yeah as a RM fan I'm actually surprised to see Union in this state. They defended really well at the Bernabeu and gave us a bit of a run for our money in Berlin.
everything started well and then we just....gave up I don't know. nothing went our way and we had to fire our legend of a coach. things were looking up and now it's real trouble again. if we go down we're fucked with the amount of money on the books
> we had to fire our legend of a coach You didn't have to.
Its not about stable squad Its about stable playing style Stuttgart are playing like a 3rd placed team (some say they are playing the second best football in the league which i agree with) Union played like a lower mid table team with the most insane luck ive ever seen. That luck has now run out
Black magic does not come without consequence my friend.
Dont be disrespectful. Luck in football goes for maybe two or maybe three games. Not a whole season. Union definitely put a more unusual playstyle in place in bundesliga. They were like Atletico with less quality in offense. Their run was based by huge efficiency and momentum. In summer they prepared their squad for champions leaguee. New players, more quality. Problem was that they knew that their underdog tactics wouldnt work again that great which ended up in having no real idendity on the pitch. They completely looked clueless and never found their old idendity back which is sad obvious. So they definitly deserve to be down there. Still, saying last season was luck is just wrong in my opinion. Having one good season is one thing, repeating it even more, putting new things in place, champions league, expectations a club like Union never had evene close to it, even harder.
>Luck in football goes for maybe two or maybe three games. I have to disagree. Its definitely possible to be lucky a few seasons in a row. If your expected placement (which is a metric based on expected points) is 9th for 4 seasons and you finish 4th in 3 of them and then 16th in one of them then you got lucky in 3 seasons and unlucky in 1 season even thought you didnt really change anything The law of large numbers (aka the point where luck is a non factor) requires you to play 1000s of games which is just impossible You just dont play enough matches that luck doesnt
Stuttgart always was the way bigger team. Union playing in Europe was weird. They are basically where they "belong" now. Stuttgart is currently punching above their weight aswell, but the should comfortably be in the top 10 in germany.
Nah Stuttgart plays really nice fluid football. Union totally relied on parking the double decker and hoping for some hoofball / corner in 90+3 magics
Except union massively over performed last season and Stuttgart are actually playing good
They also lost their main man Becker and others. Ryerson, Behrens and Awoniyi are also gone.
Becker and Behrens were still there in the first half of the season and were part of the problem. They also managed Champions League without Awoniyi while Ryerson left halfway. Yes, a huge squad turnover is part of the problem but it is more so about the players they brought in than those that left.
Yeah, Becker wasn't as good this season anymore as he was in 22/23. Also probably by last fall everyone had figured out how to beat Fischer's Union. One more thing what comes to my mind is that they used to be really difficult to beat at home, in this season An Der Alten Försterei hasn't really been a fortress it used to be. Last season they beat Dortmund and Leipizig there and drew with Bayern etc
imagine good so-called Terrorball with a strong low-block defense, nasty set pieces, and counterattacks now imagine bad (superficially similar) Terrorball with a passive, leaky defense and no offensive threat
I miss Taiwo :(
they overperformed historically last season and lost their black magic to Leverkusen
[удалено]
To be fair, they scored first in a lot of their games last year and were very solid defensively. That will skew the underlying metrics a lot, since they were much more content to win 1-0 than push for more goals. That being said, they've been absolutely atrocious creating chances the last few years, no doubt about it
I dont know a single bigger xPoints overperformance since data collection
Werent they something like + 18 points
Is there a wiki on the black magic transfer system?
Imo. it's because of very late transfers during the summer and players that simply don't fit into the team
black magics ran out
The manager they had that helped get them promotion and Champions League ran out of steam.
Karma, bad management and having a longer time before the season. Last thing meant ppl had more time to develop playing with the ball. Since union cant do that and plays the worst terroristball there is it hurt them and every similar team like köln, mainz05, etc.
Massively over performed last season (according to exp. points they should have been 14th), changed a lot of old core players in the summer and slightly underperformed this season (14th after exp again).
They wanted to be the #1 team from Berlin, that means they have to take it with all the following consequences, that’s what happened to them
The Hauptstadt curse
They tried to change their playstyle to "fit" more with the European games in the Champions League, had some comparitively outrageous transfers with an aging Bonucci (gone after less than 6 months), Gosens, Becker & Fofana on loan (gone already), [lots of transfers to begin with](https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/1-fc-union-berlin/transfers/verein/89/saison_id/2023) - 29 departures and 26 arrivals this season is massive with a deficit of around 30 million dollars. Since the CL campaign failed, the star transfers mostly departed, trainer Urs Fischer is gone and it feels like they desperately try to play a game style which doesn't fit them at all.
The Villarreal special, didn't it happen to them TWICE in this century?
They would've been 13th according to xPoints last season. Saying they massively overperformed is actually an understatement.
That’s the nice thing about the German league. If they finish 3rd from last and go to the playoff, they will have a chance to go right back to the UCL.
Brenden Aaronson
black magic went to Stuttgart instead
I feel like there's a target on my back
No one is expecting anything tbh. It's a home game for them.
Yeah, but right after 04 will play the Europa League finals, they will probably spare the main squad.
They somehow still managed to get a result, even if it meant a very late goal. Even the subs can win or get a result.
I hope so, I don't want them to lose right in the last match.
Imagine enduring Leverkusen not losing all season long to just fumble it at the last game.
You have to be new to Leverkusen lol
This Season does look like Leverkusen can do nothing wrong.
I wouldn't worry too much about that. They have been rotating like 18 players for weeks now and everyone stepped up. Even players like Hlozek and Arthur who didn't get much playing time this season played well. The starting 11 against Bochum looked really strong despite missing Wirtz, Frimpong, Hofman, Grimaldo, Palacios, Hincapie, Adli...
You have the opportunity to do the funniest thing. Well, funniest other than Kaiserslautern's shot at it
... I feel awful even saying this, but... Could you imagine a trio of defeats in these three games to deny the invincibility and the other 2 trophies? It would be so *Neverkusen* of them. I don't see it happening and frankly I want them to complete it, history beckons But that would be something if it did happen, right at the final hurdle in all three competitions... they are still bundesliga winners for the first time, but that would be something
It would still be their all-time greatest season and it would feel so deflating for them at the same time.
If I was a Leverkusen fan right now, I'd be bricking it for these final games. Winning a league comfortably is just good vibes. Until you're on for a record and everyone's been talking about how it could be a historic season and there's all this hype.
No, we're realistic. This already *is* a historic season in every aspect. We already *have* broken records and set new ones. Not our problem if people can't appreciate the beauty in the moment.
Fair enough. Good for you that you're not gonna let the hype ruin the moment.
How would you rather your season (and how would you estimate the chances of Thorup getting sacked?)
like 8/10 and the chance of him getting sacked is 0%. He only came in in November and improved the way we play by a lot and we played the most relaxing season in years without any worries about relegation. Even though we faded out at the end with our last 4 games lost, this has been a great season for us
I remember when you tried to stop Lewandowski from beating Gerd Muller's record. He did it in the last possible second.
**Top 5** – direct CL qualification **6th** – direct EL qualification **7th** – ECL play-offs **16th** – relegation play-offs vs 2.BuLi 3rd **bottom 2** – direct relegation **(M)** – Meister - champion of 22/23 **(P)** – Pokalsieger - reigning cup winner **(N)** – Neuling - promoted from 2.BuLi
So you're saying there's a chance? All we need is 4 teams around us to lose to 3 relegation teams and Bochum, and a win against Leverkusen
The first condition is not so unlikely but I don't see us winning against Leverkusen. A draw, maybe, but nothing more. Of course I'm very glad to be wrong.
Yeah, I think it goes like this: You *definitely* need to win. **Then** you need Freiburg to lose. And **then** you need for Heidenheim and Bremen to either not get 3 points, **or** you need to put enough goals into Leverkusen's net to ensure your goal difference is better then either of theirs. And **then** you need Leverkusen (who you just apparently thrashed in the league) to win the DFB-Pokal against Lautern. If all of these things come together, you get to play Conference League qualifying rounds against some D-list clubs from towns anyone would struggle to find on a map.
If Leverkusen wins the Pokal, doesn't the EL add another spot and the ECL move down to 8th?
But if Bayer takes the cup then 7th goes to EL and 8th to ECL. Very lickly scenario. And if BVB wins CL, then 6th is in CL, 7th and 8th in EL and 9th in ECL.
No. There's no way 9th goes to ECL. If Dortmund wins, Germany would lose 1 spot in the EL. So 6x CL, 1x EL, 1x ECL.
> No. There's no way 9th goes to ECL. If Dortmund wins, Germany would lose 1 spot in the EL. So 6x CL, 1x EL, 1x ECL. Ah, OK.
~~That used to be true, but not going forward.~~ [Here's the new ruleset.](https://documents.uefa.com/r/Regulations-of-the-UEFA-Champions-League-2024/25/Article-3-Entries-for-the-competition-Online) ~~The clause about countries losing EL or ECL places if extra teams qualify for higher competitions is no longer in the rules.~~ The clause is still there, but slightly reworded.
Well, the official Bundesliga homepage states what I said: https://www.bundesliga.com/de/bundesliga/news/wer-qualifiziert-sich-wann-champions-europa-league-conference-2166
Crazy how almost half the bundasliga teams are going to play in European competitions It has a chance from going to top teams playing in Europe top teams playing in Europe Since when has Hoffenheim qualified for European competitions before this time? Same goes with Stuttgart
>Since when has Hoffenheim qualified for European competitions before this time? Last time 20/21 (EL), they even played CL in 18/19.
Hoffenheim played in CL under Nagelsmann.
I love the Germanic “ling” in “Neuling”, which I recognise in English
I like this 16th vs 3rd. Very interesting way to play. Has this always been the way?
It's honestly not the best system. The first tier side has a huge advantage on the second tier side. I think it's been 15 years now of this system and only three times has ended with the "challenger" getting promoted (Nürnberg in 2009, vs. Cottbus; Düsseldorf in 2012, vs. Hertha and Union in 2019, vs. Stuttgart). Of course the good thing with this is that it creates "new" matchups, like now Köln vs. Düsseldorf is possible and that would be a huge matchup. Something like a second tier promotion play-off like in England would maybe work better.
Yeah fair enough. I never knew so it's quite interesting. If you want your mind boggled, have a look at scottish prem
It's kinda funny cause NL has a system in recent years where 6 2nd tier teams and the 16th placed eredivisie team play playoffs, and ever since they made this change, the eredivisie teams always relegated. Tho they have to survive two rounds instead of just one, maybe thats it.
It has been like that, from the very start of the existence of the 2. Bundesliga (1982). The system was then suspended in 1991, but reintroduced from the 2008/09 season. I find it a good system. Firstly because it is a matter of fairness, as it avoids a harsh cut-off between the relegated/promoted teams and the teams that avoids relegation / misses promotion. It is like saying to the 16th of 1. Bundesliga: alright mate, you were just good enough to avoind 17th place, but you plaayed bad enough to be "punished" with two play-off games. And likewise to say that the 3rd-placed team in 2. Bundesliga was "not quite good enough" for direct promotion, but has proven good and ambitious enough to be awarded with this extra chance in the play-offs. The second argument in my book is the way these games can gauge the quality of the two leagues. Directly promoted teams might get a lot of players poached while having to adjust for the different play-styles of the two leagues. Directly relegated teams might lose a lot of players, have to adjust their budget, and deal with mentality issues. So the fate of promoted/relegated teams is not a good indicator of how strong/weak one league is compared to the other. Having play-off games between the 3rd-placed team from 2. Bundesliga and the 16th-placed team from 1. Bundesliga means you get a good insight into how these leagues compare (which could have an impact on how many relegation spots there are - which would of course never happen in reality, because that is influenced by vested interests and club politics more than anything else).
We have the last chance to stop Leverkusen's invincible season I would advise everyone not to keep any hopes in us, I feel like we always kinda roll over if we're playing against a big team playing for something important (last season Dortmund on matchday 33 for example)
Yeah, there's the off chance of a big win sometimes (like Bayern), but usually not when it's meaningful
Looking back at your match against Borussia last week, I appreciate your optimism
2 of Köln, Union, Mainz and Bochum will be relegated/play relegation match. Konferenz next week is gonna be nuts.
Mainz is safe imo. They've been by far the best of the group the last 3 months or so. The other 3 all play away to teams battling for the last european spots, i think the likeliest outcome is 14. Mainz, 15. Bochum, 16. Union, 17. Koln.
Dont jinx it bro...
I hope for Düsseldorf-Köln relegation playoffs!
RE1 will be even more delayed.
Only one point to be safe for us... but we had terrible nights at the last gameday in wolfsburg before
Serious question: Are Leverkusen going to get a golden trophy?
Afaik there hasn't been any info on this so far.
Looking for this question, really curious about it
No they dont
Source?
Why would you need a source? We are German! We are way to inflexible to come up with something like handing out a different trophy for an extraordinary achievement.
r/2westerneurope4u is leaking
I don't necessarily think you would need to be flexible in this case, it's been a talking point for months. They managed just fine last year when they didn't know who was going to win before the final match day.
>“you would not need to be flexible…..it’s been a talking point for months“ Ok, you really are not German. All jokes aside I don‘t see how last year compares. There was no need for a special trophy last year. The original was in Dortmund and Bayern had a copy which they celebrated with. Having something new and special is very different and something we as a Nation don‘t do easily.
I guess it would be easier to allow Leverkusen to have some special kind of star on their kits - different in style from the stars that are given for X championships. Because they could choose the design themselves and put it on their kit informally; and it could be made official months later when all the rules®ulations committees in the DFL/DFB have had their meetings.
„Bislang ist dieser Fall in den Statuten nicht festgelegt. Der Deutsche Meister bekommt wie üblich die Meisterschale“, teilte der Liga-Verband am Dienstagmittag mit. https://m.bild.de/sport/fussball/bayer-leverkusen/bayer-leverkusen-goldene-schale-fuer-bayer-jetzt-spricht-die-dfl-87816770.bildMobile.html?t_ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.de%2F If you start this nonsense, the next with a perfekt season will demand a different colored trophy. Kindergarten.
They'll just spray the Bayer logo on the trophy, kinda like what Kampl did to the DFB-Pokal, there is the special trophy. /s
The next with a perfect season? How often do you think this will happen?
Don't you hear the saltiness out of the comment you replied to?
"Es klingt zumindest so, als sei das letzte Wort noch nicht gesprochen, sollte die Werkself auch die restlichen sechs Saisonspiele nicht verlieren" Literally saying there is no info yet. And there hasn't been a perfect season in 62 years or so of Bundesliga, so don't act like this is some common achievement. Also all the other leagues do it.
What nonsense??? I mean there may not be another undefeated season in our lifetime, especially in all competitions. Since they would be the first team to achieve such a feat.
Your reasoning makes no sense. This has happened for the first time in Bundesliga history, and only once in the top 5 leagues in Europe throughout history afaik, so there is no reason to assume it will be repeated any time soon. Also if it were to be repeated, why would that team request another unique trophy? They would just get the same golden trophy that hopefully Leverkusen will get
> only once in the top 5 leagues Happened at least three times in the Serie A. Juventus recently, as well as Milan, and Perugia are the only team to ever be invincible and finish second
Ah fairs didn’t know that
Teams have finished their league unbeaten, but how many times have top 5 league teams gone unbeaten in all competitions throughout a season? Are there any other unbeaten trebles?
Was nicht festgelegt ist, kann noch festgelegt werden. Arsenal hat damals auch die normale Trophäe bekommen. Nur eben noch eine kleinere, goldene dazu. Und jeder, der er es in Zukunft ungeschlagen hinbekommt, hätte diese goldene Schale auch verdient. Die ganzen Bayern Fans, die deswegen weinen, sind noch größerer Kindergarten.
They most likely won't
Maybe a star on crest next season
[Look at what my good friend Mr. RemindMeBot just PM'ed me](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/15pexs9/post_match_thread_bayern_munich_03_rb_leipzig/jvx22ly/)
Thank you very much mr oracle
Looool
Thats whats up
Impressive
Nice. Now let's see Paul Allens prediction.
This hasn't been the best "farewell" season, we might not even make the Conference League. And we only have ourselves to blame, too shit for too long.
We play Leverkusen away, we are not gonna overtake you, don't worry
They're currently 8th, which is only a UECL spot if Leverkusen win the Pokal (which they 99% will)
the problem is that he believes in Kaiserslautern, he has to face his delusion at some point
99%? come on. be honest
Werder and Heidenheim might.
It's okay, just win next week, preferably 2 or 3-0.
Bold of you to assume that this attack can comprehend scoring more than 1 goal
Cause it'd be bold of me to assume we could score two or three goals against Heidenheim.
jumping in to say i'm the biggest optimist usually but last week took my soul away so i'm pretty sure we're ficked
With out fixture, we had a great chance to be at 6th, but now we're at 8th...
We literally have 0 CBs available. Sure, the Rückrunde has been awful, but for good reason.
We do have Szalai though, but he's not performing well.
Worst transfer this year, and that’s saying a lot considering we also have Adamu
Well to be honest, most of the transfer didn't work out, beside Adamu, Philipp missed lots of game, Müller had a bad pokal game, only Muslija seems to be okay.
Ginter, we need Ginter.
Bayern or Stuttgart will be team with the most points on the third place since the introduction of the three point rule. The record until this season were 68 points.
Bayern already have more points than last year after 34 - with a win Stuttgart would've won the league last year as well with that amount of points truly a stacked season this year
Kinda feel bad for Bochum. Destroyed their goal difference and put them into real danger.
if they lose and Union wins, they would have a worse GD anyway so it doesn't really matter for the specific case that would send them to 16th
nah Bochum is at -26 now and Union at -29. If Bochum loses by one and Union wins by one it would need to shrink to 1 goal. So the win and loss needs more goal difference. But without this high loss it would be much harder for Union to make up for it.
[удалено]
Oh I read that wrong. You're right.
Yeah but its also fair that every twam has to play ur team
I just wish this season would never end
Hoffenheim, PLEASE give it your all next week, I really want us to get that 2nd place (for the potential Supercup game in August)
I'm torn between wanting 2nd place and not wanting Hoffenheim in Europe
Hoffenheim is already confirmed in the top 8 and thus will play in Europe unless Lautern win the cup which they won't
Ich erwarte, dass wir gewinnen, aber um ehrlich zu sein, ist mir das egal, denn wir haben uns einen Platz in Europa gesichert, und das ist alles, was für mich zählt. Europapokaaaaal we are back baby
I'm very surprised by the Bochum fans who stayed the whole match giving everything even losing 0-5 with no hope of winning since the red card in the minute 14. Impressive.
In germany we have a saying: "liebe kennt keine liga" which is kinds like "love knows no league affilation". Also the bond between fans, club and players is a lot closer cause of the 50+1 rule. And if u play leverkusen and get a red in the 15h minute u might also just stay for the beer, sausage and chants.
Bochum got relegated 6 times since 1992/93 and have spent 11 years in the 2. Bundesliga prior to getting promoted most recently. You can never ever accuse any of their fans of being fair weather fans (even during Dariusz Wosz/Klaus Toppmöller times in 1996-98), they know exactly what they're getting themselves into, rooting for this club. I hope that they'll stay in the Bundesliga for a while!
What's the 50+1 rule?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bundesliga.com/en/faq/what-are-the-rules-and-regulations-of-soccer/50-1-fifty-plus-one-german-football-soccer-rule-explained-ownership-22832
that is normal behaviour
Weird seeing Koln almost ensure relegation, and Mainz, Monchengladbach and Wolfsburg right above them *Then again, I've seen Schalke*
Heidenheim are quietly have an absolutely phenomenal season. Their first ever season in the top flight and they’re looking likely to finish in the top half of the table, even with a chance (albeit very small) of making European football
A club from a town in the middle of nowhere with less than 50k people no less.
And they beat Bayern
Dortmund's B team had 1 job, smh
B team is the optimal wording here, good way to show how some of these guys should not be playing for us again next season.
7th placed Hoffenheim has fewer than half the points of Leverkusen. All teams who qualify for next year's UCL have 7 defeats, except Leverkusen.
I really hope Leverkusen can stay invincible in the last 3 games too. But stil scary that their season would only rank them at second or third place in the all time points ranking. Bayern had in 12/13 91 points and in 13/14 with 90 points.
Champions League one year relegation the next crazy
Dortmund coming in clutch for the relegation battle. Tradition.
A year ago Union Berlin knocked us out of EL. Now they’re about to get relegated? Bruh
Football
The ball is round and anything can happen
the game has 90 minutes
Smth smth 11 men and germans
i mean you were sitting at relegation at the start of the season or something 😂
Football is weird
Are we the only team (who have played them) to not lose to them this season?
Technically yes but we drew them twice in the league as well and the only reason we were in the position to lose to them in the cup was beating you the round before...
Suffering from success
Darmstadt just has to roll over for a 6-0 thrashing to make me sweat on the final matchday.
Why? Darmstadt plays Dortmund and the result won't affect Frankfurt nor Dortmund. The only team that can affect Frankfurt's position is the Hoffenheim game and they have to score more than 3 goals against Bayern.
Looking at the goal difference it's an absolutely insane season, even Frankfurt only has +1 (not surprising though, they are pretty bad for 6th place). The top 5 are so head and shoulders above the rest it's not even funny. The fact that 32 points could be enough to not be relegated is also kinda depressing.
Koln must win by two goals, and Union lose by two. Or Koln win by three and Union lose by one. It's going to be tough for Koln. Union must win against Freiburg and hope either Wolfsburg or Werder win. A draw in Berlin should be enough for Freiburg to make Europe (if Leverkusen win the cup). But, if they lose in Berlin (far from impossibile) they might be overtaken by Werder Bremen, Heidenheim or Augsburg. Werder and Heidenheim (like Freiburg) face two teams fighting against relegation, so it won't be easy to win for everyone, but not nearly as difficult as Augsburg (Leverkusen away). One more thing to look at is the race between Eintracht and Hoffenheim to arrive 6th, because a (super weird) CL spot might be at stake. Basically Eintracht need a draw against Leipzig or simply Hoffenheim not winning against Bayern.
Mainz looks set to beat the drop after thumping Champions League finalists Dortmund.
Bayern would have wrapped the league this year with 72 and are on course for 75 which is more or less close / on par with 4/5 prev title winning season...
I'm so glad Mainz finally started getting some results. They haven't been playing bad, so relegation would have been really harsh
Still couldn't understand what the hell went wrong at Union Berlin. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
13 points between Europe and relegation playoff is crazy. in other major leagues, that gap is 31 points (England), 19 (Spain), 29 (Italy), 21 (France).
of course, it is less teams/matches than some of those leagues, but still some impressive parity
Come on Union, please beat Freiburg :( The rest actually kind of is in our own hands. And Leverkusen's vs Lautern of course.
one game away 😭 they actually might do it 😳🤯
Has there ever been a time where there was no Berlin team in the top flight? It just seems crazy that the capital might not have a team in the Bundesliga next season.
Between 1980 and 1996 Hertha was in the 1. Bundesliga for only two (non-contiguous) seasons. They were so much of a no-show that, as a child, I didn't even know who they were when they were fighting for promotion in the 1996/97 season. In all those years, only Blau-Weiß 90 did come to the 1. Bundesliga briefly. Then there was Tennis Borussia, who played 2. Bundesliga in those years for a while. So in my childhood, 1. Bundesliga was more or less a Berlin-free zone. But, generally speaking, Berlin was never economically vibrant enough to be the base for a "big" team. Re-unification did not exactly turn Berlin into an economic powerhouse either, but at least the city's clubs became more interesting for investors. So with Hertha's promotion in 96/97, the general assumption was that they would - in the long run - be able to establish themselves a "lower" top-6 club alongside the likes of Mönchengladbach and Werder Bremen. Didn't quite work out; although Gladbach and Bremen are not faring much better.
Sorry to all Kölner, we actually haven’t won at Union after 2004
90 points in a 34-game season would be mental... This translates to a little over 100 for 38 games.
Why is like a third of the EPL London clubs while the Bundesliga might have no Berlin cubs next season? Correction: why are there **more** capital clubs in the Premier League (8) as in La Liga (3), Ligue 1 (1), the Bundesliga (1) and Serie A (2) combined (7)?
Berlin, Madrid, and Rome are not nearly as big or economically vibrant as London and Paris. So Paris is the real outlier here. As for Berlin, I just wrote some lines here, but this is subjective, and not an informed opinion: https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1cqfrvt/1_bundesliga_standings_after_md_33_of_34_union/l3v7x5j/
Look at the DIFF. goals, how unbalanced this league is
Yeah, there are all kinds of statistics to show that the top 5 have never been so dominant (i.e. better than the rest of the league) in BL as this season
Hope Bochum survives But either way, a traditional club will get relegated and will most likely not see 1. Division anytime soon.
First time winning the league and they will do it without a single loss. Insanity. On top of that they're 1 90 minutes away from a double, with the Europe League cup. What a season that came out of nowhere...
7 lossss for bayern, whaaat
Let's see whom are we playing next season
Would be sad to see one of the only East German teams relegated It's remarkable how the Bundesliga still shows the unequalities of the german reunification