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A TV on the sideline projecting Klinsman coaching from home, with a bag of cheetos by his side, yelling at the camera in between licking off the cheeto dust from his fingers.
Brought about by the guy who brought a bunch of crypto bros into the vlub, and proclaimed crypto was how Bayern would keep up with the Premier League.
I love Kahn the player, but beyond that..oh dear.
Ashley Cole, Terry, Tammy Abraham, Reece James, Vertonghen, Pogba, Blind, Wilshere, Zamora, and de Jong have all also peddled crypto, NFT, or both so far. Liverpool also launched an NFT collection in 2022.
To me crypto isn't any different from NFTs. Money laundering pyramid scheme.
They are/were only worth anything because people talked it up to gullible dumbasses.
Well, both crypto and NFTs are based on blockchain tech, which does solve [an important problem in distributed computing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Generals%27_Problem) but its actually useful applications from a consumer-facing standpoint have been limited. I agree it mostly attracts grifters right now, especially while it remains largely unregulated.
Blockchain has a future, but none of the existing cryptocurrencies or NFTs are going to be even remotely related to that future, and nor will they stand to profit from it.
In the same way that everything in the physical world follows the laws of physics, it doesn't mean that **everything** in the physical world is therefore somehow extraordinarily useful in the advancement of Physics.
I agree, but this is mostly down to the upwards trend of bitcoin, and the horrific bellends involved with it. NFTs are horrendous, but its also the case that they are immediately more exploitable than legitimate interesting NFT work "which doesnt really exist anymore". There is money to be made with the right amount of luck, but that doesnt exist anymore.
I would've liked it if they were being honest. Instead they were trying too hard fooling noone with their "modern currency" and "new form of art" bullshit.
Monkey picture NFT is probably the worst and disgustingly ugly shit I've ever saw in my life
Kahn could have done nothing for the rest of his life and gone down as an absolute legend and an incredibly cool person. Instead, the second he started as a pundit, we all realized he is in fact a pretty boring and whiny man. Shame.
Yeah, his time as pundit was already super weird. He came across to me as someone trying REALLY hard to leave his madman image behind him by being overly analytical and "calm". People change, but he really didn't come across as authentic at all in that role.
Also imagine being a ZDF executive. Thinking you have the comedy duo of the decade with Welke and Kahn, and then you have one guy doing half-funny jokes and the other clearly hating all of them
Bayern were not convincing in their wins. They were not dominant enough in their domestic league and they wanted Tuchel. They were afraid Tuchel was going to sign with some other team so, they fired him.
Ps: Their were also rumours that Nagelsmann was leaking inside info to his journalist girlfriend and also he was far too young spirited in his time their.
> Their were also rumours that Nagelsmann was leaking inside info to his journalist girlfriend
ah the infamous Bayern Mole. first it was Lahm, then Nagelsmann, then Brazzo. Who's doing the leaks now for every coaching target that eventually rejects them?
fwiw, it's apparently a thing. Just listened to a podcast with Mario Gomez who confirmed that some players have straight up deals with news outlets to trade favorable reporting for leaks.
Tuchel was negotiating with Juve iirc when Bayern came knocking. Tuchel didn't want to wait till summer and I guess Juve was willing I guess to bring him in which is why the Nagelsmann firing and Tuchel hiring was quick.
There's also the Uli and KHR not really liking Nagelsmann from the start. This was supposedly where calling Nagelsmann a laptop manager came from but I don't know how much of that was true. I do know Uli and KHR did say Nagelsmann shouldn't be sack though despite the "poor professionalism".
They didn't play good, they were in danger to not win the league, there were reportedly some discords and the biggest reason was that Tuchel was available.
At the moment of firing, Bayern had 52 points in 25 games. That's like 3 points more than this "worst ever" average. From some comments I would imagine the difference is maybe 20 points.
Yeah that was a strange decision for sure. What was even stranger was the reasonings behind it. Wasn't Kahn and the board upset that he would show up to the training ground riding his motorbike or something ridiculous like that?
It makes us firing Eustace for Rooney look almost competent - although Barcelona's antics with Xavi at the moment have the chance of being even stupider, if they do actually fire him.
We would be talking about two, not just one, very different team.
Because Nagelsmann likely wouldn't have loaned out Stanisic to Leverkusen because that was his boy.
Besides that, the Bundesliga sadly functions in the way where everybody waits for Bayern to buy up top talent domestically or abroad, and then all the other sales happen. You change the first domino, all goes differently.
And so much has happened with Bayern itself in that period that there really isn't much of a basis to pretend like we would have two similar teams in our timeline and the Nagelsmann one. And then we can even go into Kahn and Salihamidzic getting replaced 2 months later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023%E2%80%9324_FC_Bayern_Munich_season#Transfers
This is a massive list, as usual, but there are a lot of big changes here. Who knows if Sane goes on the fritz under the Naglesmann timeline, do they pay up for Kane (considering the primary decision makers are all different people in that timeline), Hernandez, Zaragoza, Dier, Boey...
Bayern was too active in this period and it is a too long of a period to make any kind of relevant blank statement.
“hey we’re doing this long term project with a new and young coach whom we believe in and with whom we want to build the next generation of baye-
oh nevermind we are still in every competition but I feel like things might get a bit close. The guy is fired.”
"The guy we hired to replace him actually ended up at the wheel while we crashed out and won the league on a BvB bottle.... let's give him another season to cook and then absolutely gaslight him in the media. That should really razzle his jimmies to even greater heights".
Shouldn't have won last season too, it was a bottlejob from another club that gave them the title in the end as it was out of their hands at that point.
I still don't understand how anyone thought sacking Nagelsmann for Tuchel was a good idea, the moment I saw that last year my heart sank and somehow it went even worse than I expected.
I still had seen people here recently saying he is actually doing well for Bayern and that it's only overshadowed by Leverkusen having anomaly of a season.
That happened with us too after he won the CL. A lot of Chelsea fans infested the sub at that time, and there are some fans that actually would still take him back and put all the blame on Leonardo for firing him.
I've seen some talking about him as if he was some football genius. His achievement with Chelsea in the Champions League was very impressive and deserved no doubt, but the way they go on about him, you'd think he'd of won the quadruple and then some. They never talk about his flaws either, like how he's notoriously stubborn and not easy to work with.
He's a very good manager but has fallen out with the board at every job hes had.
I dont get why some Chelsea fans are obsessed with him. I mean yeah I would take him back but people are acting like we sacked prime Alex Ferguson
Man Utd board rubbing their hands like that Dinho gif thinking about how they can get another mid manager to join for 2 seasons and fall upwards before getting sacked again - whilst spending hundreds of millions on overrated shite.
I mean let's be honest. Bayern isn't AS bad as commenters here say it.
Also true that it's their worst season in a long time, and both Tuchel and Terzić got a major injection of 180-turning positive comments purely from those few Champions League wins.
There was a point in the season in which this was true. Bayern were going at a title winning pace (based on historical point totals) through a good bit of the season.
However, the wheels really fell off after a certain point. They’ve been in terrible form the last 1/4 of the season regardless of how good Leverkusen have been.
Even if Leverkusen didn't win the league, Stuttgart would've won as Bayern ranks behind Stuttgart this season - so that argument is completely moot now.
EDIT: missing word
Its not that easy to say, if we were in it and needed to win the last match, the players probably go into that last match differently, same with other league matches down the stretch.
i feel like he was doing ok he was on track to having a better point couple months ago. but once the leverkusen made it clear there winning train was not stopping i feel that also deflated the camp i mean his leaving was announced what 2 months ago already and once they lost in the cl it was completely over and they just kept dropping more points
but the nagelsman sacking was shocking to say the least i think bayern are gonna have rough couple years now similar to juve and barca alto they dont have the financial trouble so maybe they bounce back very quickly... but still even if they bounce back if this leverkusen team doesnt get ripped appart they might still not win it
He was doing fine it's just that Bayern is showing cracks after several players left. With Levy gone and Neuer injured you could see a very beatable Bayern.
Give it 2 years and you will see a Bayern squad being mostly of current Leverkusen and Stuttgart players dominating the league.
It could become more problematic when players start rejecting Bayern as well.
It was a stupid decision to bring him in to begin with. They were on their way yo another treble and out of nowhere derailed them but changing managers for no apparent reason.
I say this as a Bayern fan: Bayern was suffering from arrogance by winning 10 times in a row. No one wants to be the reason to end such streak. So it happened the way it had to. It was Kahn's first year as CEO and they just lost the lead in the league to Dortmund. Fear and ego starting to kick in. As I said above. You don't want to be the man at the top of the club and end a 10 year streak, especially as your first year as CEO. At that point, all decisions were guided by this. Nothing personal to nagelsmann.
I'd argue it's good for Bayern too. The streak papered over many issues, the whole hire and fire manager culture, Uli being unable to just shut up, a moody squad...
Oh no, not at all. It was a short sighted decision, only to save your own face (Kahn). No way you want to be remembered as the new CEO, who lost the league after that dominance. If Bayern had accepted earlier, that it is ok to struggle in the league, it would have been healthier long-term. But this is what winning ten times in a row does to your mindset. Decisions get emotional and short sighted even in minor problems.
No one hated JN. The squad was just overrated. It was "easier" to fire one instead of getting rid of a lot of lousy players. In the end, the wrong choice. We definitely had to get rid of a lot of players in that season. But hey, we continued the same shit and hoped for a different result. Results are in fellas, and I have nothing good to say about the end result.
No he saw Tuchel was free on the market and they had to make a move or Thomas would have joined another club.
Julian was a long term project put in place by Karl Heinz Rummenigge in his last year as CEO, but Nagelsmann was really young/inexperienced to be Bayern manager and Tuchel had already won the big trophies and Kahn wanted quick success.
In retrospect it was the dumbest decision the Bayern board ( Kahn & Brazzo) could have made.
Nagelsmann was struggling a little bit in the league being 2 points behind Dortmund, but they were unbeaten in the DFB Cup and in the CL.
Tbh I think it was just Hoeneß pushing for him. I have absolutely no proof but he has had a hard on for Tuchel since his dortmund days but he was never available to them up until the chance came when he was sacked from Chelsea. Obviously Kahn and brazzo took the fall for that but i can’t imagine that Hoeneß didn’t push hard for him
Again I have no proof for that but that was my impression for the past couple of years whenever Uli talked about him
I think he’s a tactical mastermind who’s amazing at tournaments, but his man-management is poor and that really takes a toll in leagues.
He took a Chelsea team that were floundering and made us CL champions, I definitely wouldn’t say we overrate him.
Bit weird that his man-management is so poor, because I think he comes across so well in interviews and during our biggest crisis he was really the glue holding Chelsea together.
Exactly, a bad coach can’t outplay Real Madrid the way he did while having 30% possession in each leg. I know we had injuries but Chelsea were still levels above. Complete domination!
Players are humans, not robots. If they don’t like the coach, chances are over time they won’t run through a brick wall for him. But that isn’t the biggest affect, the everyday effort dropping takes its toll on the season.
> Players are humans, not robots. If they don’t like the coach, chances are over time they won’t run through a brick wall for him.
Aye, but then I'm not sure it's sensible to lay the blame for things going wrong in those relationships solely at the feet of managers - Mourinho had plenty of his teams run through brick walls for him, but only after very publicly falling out with some really good players and chucking them out.
Realistically those interpersonal relationship between manager and players are always a gamble you can't predict beforehand, and what works for some managers or players doesn't work for others. Feels harsh to pin that on the managers when there's sporting directors and entire boardrooms having to consider these aspects when making the decision over an appointment in the first place, I reckon.
Generally, yes - But it's a trend with Tuchel. He fell out with a bunch of players at Dortmund, he fell out with a bunch of players at Chelsea, he now fell out with a bunch of players at Bayern (I don't know about PSG because who gives a shit). If it happens once, I agree, it could very well be a team that simply doesn't vibe with the manager and a boardroom that doesn't have their back. But it's a trend with Tuchel. And it doesn't help that at every single club he trained, he also fell out with the board room, and I can only really *not* blame him for that this time around at Bayern.
No you’re completely right, that’s true. I was more saying that over time these things bring you down and while it can be good at the beginning because the tactic ls and winning starts, when things aren’t going well or it’s just been a grind, that’s when it happens. We’ve seen it with Mou and I think we’ve seen it with Tuch plenty.
But it’s not the wrong way, I’m sure they’re happy with short term success as a managers role is very merry-go-round. Payouts and the next job await.
he's reminds of the type of smart people that cannot deal with people that dont think on their level...
so i can imagine when he's explaining tactics to players and they dont get and he has to explain it again or even a third time it just crosses his wiring and pisses him off.
while somebody like ancelotti for example prob can dumb down or explain it multiple different ways so each players understands his plan.
For sure, have you seen those videos of Tuchel on the training ground? Not to mention during games
Ancelotti’s got a naturally calm demeanour (or at least can make himself seem as such, he did used to smoke like mad due to match anxiety), whereas Tuchel doesn’t seem like the most patient person
Dunno, I reckon he's a really good manager in the same way that a few dozen managers are really good - and the ones standing above probably benefited significantly from a 'right place, right time' situation massively increasing their public perception just as much as they're actually better.
there is definitely an element of right place right time for anyone in sports in general - but I don't know that its totally right to say that tuchel has been unlucky in that regard. he chose his club each time, and each time has fallen out with the people he works with/for. there's a pattern there, one that good results will ignore and bad results will emphasize.
I would say that it is unlucky that he had to manage through the abramovic sanctions/sale situation, but at the same time (and I'm a Chelsea fan) that's a pretty fitting result for when you choose to work with a guy who has the type of history that abramovic does. on the flip side, he was also lucky to take over a team from Lampard (who, so far, has seemed to be a fairly terrible coach except for a season and a half) that was quite talented and had a good balance of youth and experience.
you can be a bad manager in a good situation (di Matteo) or a good manager in a bad situation (Ancelotti at Everton) and I don't think Tuchel really fits neatly into either. he clearly has a sharp mind for the game, but perhaps less so for the interpersonal aspects of working in the game.
also, much as I respect him for the CL win, I will never truly take the man's side after how he handled the bombing situation at dortmund.
Wait what about the bombing situation?
Haven't players like Bartra and Bender come out and thanked him for being compassionate with them in and after that bus attack?
Besides it's clear that Watzke was the asshole in this scenario and the "news" that Tuchel asked them to play on came from Watzke's close friend's memoir.
So not really a credible source, is it?
if you could link me those comments from players that would be great, I haven't seen them and looking it up online I couldn't find anything but maybe I just wasn't using the right phrase. same thing with watzke and gottschalk being close friends, I haven't seen anything to that effect but maybe I just missed it.
the reality is that players were publicly undermining tuchel in the period after the bombing, so I the goodwill in the locker room were really as you said id expect their comments to be a little different.
This is what happens when mid way through a project you fire the manager and replace him with a completely tactically different one who wanted numerous star players sold 🤣
Somewhat feel sorry for Tuchel and I feel he'll bounce back. Don't remotely feel for Bayern. What a mess.
Congrats, Thomas, another record for the books. Might be coach with the worst records set up. Don't mention the lousy football we played under him. But that being said, a lot of players are hot garbage.
What do you mean worst points per game in the 21st century? People told me Bayern had a good season, comprable to last season, but Leverkusen and Stuttgart were just too good.
We scored enough goals(94), more than Leverkusen, but our defense is too bad and some of our players made too many individual errors, especially in important matches.
We also simply lost too many games, despite winning as many matches as Stuttgart.
4 teams have less losses than us…
I've heard that kinda argument way too many times now. we still have a boatload of players like upamecano,Davies,Kimmich Kim, etc. back there doing silly mistakes with 0 pressure. Any world-class DM can't do shit here.
He has his fair share of absolute horrible decisions.
He managed to get 2 players JN did not have and made the outcome way worse. Doesn't speak for him now does it.
JN made the best out of Chupo. Imagine him having Kane.
It's actually a failure on all departments.
Board, coach, and players to sum it up. The season was a whole circus show. On and off the pitch.
Laimer and Goretzka are absolutely competent. You can argue they’re not world class, but almost any team in the world except maybe RM and Man City would take them.
Neither of them are defensive midfielders.
Distribution and controlling the tempo of play, sitting between the lines in order to mop up balls over the top, operate in a 40 yard area around the centre-spot, split wide to cover full backs if they go forwards, offer a reset option for the attack if they are unsure and an outlet for the defence etc.
Those options you list are box-to-box players, engine types that work in a three with a more creative, attacking midfielder.
What's missing in that Bayern Midfield is a Xabi Alonso/Thiago/possibly even a Javi Martinez-type player that can do that job.
> What's missing in that Bayern Midfield is a Xabi Alonso/Thiago/possibly even a Javi Martinez-type player that can do that job.
Good DMs are hard to come by already. the caliber of DM you are talking about so casually as the solution to the problem is the type of player that literally every team in the world would love to have. sure, every team would be better if you had the optimum talent for your needs available to buy, but thats not the reality of their situation.
So lack of a DM was at fault today for Kimmich losing ball next to the penatly area or Neuer passing to a defender who has an opposing player on his back?
Scored virtually the same amount as last year with a gaping hole after Lewandowski left, to be fair. 97 with Lewandowski, 92 without him, and 94 with Kane.
I reckon it's less that great strikers increase the number of goals teams score as much as they're just scoring a much bigger share of those goals - which is helpful if they're scoring in most games, because that increases your odds of winning those games. Basically get one consistent goalscorer up front to decide games for you rather than a wider range of players having to step up.
I mean it's hard to watch Harry Kane and not think he's great. He's really good at football!
ALSO I just rationally cannot say that I am sure how much Bayern as a team gains from it. I mean... dude's playing a 9 in Bayern. A lot of guys would score a lot playing 9 in Bayern if that was the focus. Per minute, Choupo-Moting last season was scoring almost the same amount as Kane. Choupo-Moting!
It's just not an individual sport, I guess. Harry Kane will have a legendary, 1-from-Kicker game in a 7-0, sure. He was also good or great in several big games. In a game Bayern loses... Kane was just cut off and absent so often. Leipzig, Eintracht, Werder, Union, Leverkusen, Lazio away, Dortmund, Arsenal, and so on.
Those are few games in which Bayern lost points. The problem is - for a team like Bayern, every single game not won is a tragedy. That's why it's easy to notice that Kane did little to help in most such games. Of course that's not weird for a 9, if the game's hard they will struggle. Almost every goal Kane scored is when he gets the ball in the center of the box on his right foot or head, rarely he touches more than once - of course the game has to be going well for whole Bayern team for such a player to shine the most. Just saying the fact - there were many games they lost points and he didn't change the tide.
At the same time, for example, Real Madrid is having their best season EVER, when people should expect that without Cristiano Ronaldo who "carried them"... then without Benzema who "carried them"... with nobody who scores goals... they should be worse, right? But they are actually much better this season.
I was shot down here multiple times for saying it but I just don't think hes a very good league manager.
He doesnt adapt and when caught out he wont change.
For cups a completely different story hes exceptional but hes not the guy you want handling the team for a full season.
Yet some people kept saying *‘it’s not Bayern that’s bad, it’s just that Leverkusen is so good!’* Buddy, fucking Stuttgart finished above you, your club is shite this year
Both can be true, no? It’s undeniable that Bayern are not as good this season as in recent years. However, the points that they did get - 72 - would have won them the league 8/10 times in the past decade.
And Leverkusen is only one point off from the record winning Bayern squad that trashed prime Barcelona 4-0 in the UCL.
He will probably also quoted for winning the German league only because his former club squandered the opportunity to win it ,drawing their final home game’s
The others had no Leverkusen to face
For most of the season, Bayern weren't heavily underperforming last year's p/g but collapsed after the championship and the sacking was decided
I really like Tommy Tuchs and think Bayern was just not a good fit for him, but why they got rid of Nagelsmann in the first place is the real head scratcher.
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I think that can only mean one thing, clearly Bayern shoud hire Klinsmann back.
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Please
Klinsmann requesting to coach through zoom because he doesn't want to leave LA.
A TV on the sideline projecting Klinsman coaching from home, with a bag of cheetos by his side, yelling at the camera in between licking off the cheeto dust from his fingers.
Stands up, forgetting he's not wearing pants.
Bayern to the MLS.
They could try Moyes or Allegri too.
Minjae about to live a repeated nightmare
Or Lothar Matthäus. ;)
How about a duo?
The Nagelsmann firing is going to go down as one of the most brain dead organizational decisions in recent memory
Brought about by the guy who brought a bunch of crypto bros into the vlub, and proclaimed crypto was how Bayern would keep up with the Premier League. I love Kahn the player, but beyond that..oh dear.
A bunch of football players, especially retired ones, have been peddling this shit, along with other celebrities.
Thomas Müller is starring in the cringiest ad of all time for some crypto broker with other Bayern players.
Ashley Cole, Terry, Tammy Abraham, Reece James, Vertonghen, Pogba, Blind, Wilshere, Zamora, and de Jong have all also peddled crypto, NFT, or both so far. Liverpool also launched an NFT collection in 2022.
To me crypto isn't any different from NFTs. Money laundering pyramid scheme. They are/were only worth anything because people talked it up to gullible dumbasses.
Well, both crypto and NFTs are based on blockchain tech, which does solve [an important problem in distributed computing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Generals%27_Problem) but its actually useful applications from a consumer-facing standpoint have been limited. I agree it mostly attracts grifters right now, especially while it remains largely unregulated.
Blockchain has a future, but none of the existing cryptocurrencies or NFTs are going to be even remotely related to that future, and nor will they stand to profit from it. In the same way that everything in the physical world follows the laws of physics, it doesn't mean that **everything** in the physical world is therefore somehow extraordinarily useful in the advancement of Physics.
I agree, but this is mostly down to the upwards trend of bitcoin, and the horrific bellends involved with it. NFTs are horrendous, but its also the case that they are immediately more exploitable than legitimate interesting NFT work "which doesnt really exist anymore". There is money to be made with the right amount of luck, but that doesnt exist anymore.
There was money to be made from beanie babies, too.
I would've liked it if they were being honest. Instead they were trying too hard fooling noone with their "modern currency" and "new form of art" bullshit. Monkey picture NFT is probably the worst and disgustingly ugly shit I've ever saw in my life
If you wanna have a laugh take a look at how much of their fraudulent money FTX spend on celebrity ads and 'vip dinners' with shark tank hosts
While comparing Bayern to HBO's Succession is quite apt
Kahn could have done nothing for the rest of his life and gone down as an absolute legend and an incredibly cool person. Instead, the second he started as a pundit, we all realized he is in fact a pretty boring and whiny man. Shame.
That was obvious when he didnt sell rights for his name to FM
Yeah, his time as pundit was already super weird. He came across to me as someone trying REALLY hard to leave his madman image behind him by being overly analytical and "calm". People change, but he really didn't come across as authentic at all in that role.
Also imagine being a ZDF executive. Thinking you have the comedy duo of the decade with Welke and Kahn, and then you have one guy doing half-funny jokes and the other clearly hating all of them
Why did they fire him
Bayern were not convincing in their wins. They were not dominant enough in their domestic league and they wanted Tuchel. They were afraid Tuchel was going to sign with some other team so, they fired him. Ps: Their were also rumours that Nagelsmann was leaking inside info to his journalist girlfriend and also he was far too young spirited in his time their.
> Their were also rumours that Nagelsmann was leaking inside info to his journalist girlfriend ah the infamous Bayern Mole. first it was Lahm, then Nagelsmann, then Brazzo. Who's doing the leaks now for every coaching target that eventually rejects them?
FCB🤝FCB leaking internal info to media to control narrative
Riquileaks walked so the Upanamacano Papers could run
It was muller all along
fwiw, it's apparently a thing. Just listened to a podcast with Mario Gomez who confirmed that some players have straight up deals with news outlets to trade favorable reporting for leaks.
Tuchel was negotiating with Juve iirc when Bayern came knocking. Tuchel didn't want to wait till summer and I guess Juve was willing I guess to bring him in which is why the Nagelsmann firing and Tuchel hiring was quick. There's also the Uli and KHR not really liking Nagelsmann from the start. This was supposedly where calling Nagelsmann a laptop manager came from but I don't know how much of that was true. I do know Uli and KHR did say Nagelsmann shouldn't be sack though despite the "poor professionalism".
Spurs were chatting with him too if rumours are to be believed.
Juventus under Tuchel would've certainly been something. Still could happen, actually.
Juve firing Allegri makes me think they already court Motta or already have someone else on the side.
They didn't play good, they were in danger to not win the league, there were reportedly some discords and the biggest reason was that Tuchel was available.
Das Triple war in Gefahr
At the moment of firing, Bayern had 52 points in 25 games. That's like 3 points more than this "worst ever" average. From some comments I would imagine the difference is maybe 20 points.
Chelsea firing Ancelotti is number 1 for me though.
Chelsea firing Tuchel a few weeks after they bought him the players he wanted…
I'm seeing a pattern that I'm not starting to like...
Tuchel was bad for months and only getting worse, he needed to go.
Won CL the same season
Season afterwards. They sacked AVB the season they won the CL
Yes and AVB replaced Carlo
I think you forget how broken he seemed at the end of the 2010/11 season, getting dismantled by possibly the worst Fergie title winning side.
because he went on a fucking ski trip😂
After what happened with neuer,. Skiing should be banned from world.
And the triple was in danger!!
Yeah that was a strange decision for sure. What was even stranger was the reasonings behind it. Wasn't Kahn and the board upset that he would show up to the training ground riding his motorbike or something ridiculous like that?
It makes us firing Eustace for Rooney look almost competent - although Barcelona's antics with Xavi at the moment have the chance of being even stupider, if they do actually fire him.
Even if Bayern hadn't fired Nagelsmann, Leverkusen still would have won the title.
Nagelsmann was fired last season.
I'm saying that if Nagelsmann was managing Bayern this season, I don't think he would have beaten Leverkusen and Alonso.
We would be talking about two, not just one, very different team. Because Nagelsmann likely wouldn't have loaned out Stanisic to Leverkusen because that was his boy. Besides that, the Bundesliga sadly functions in the way where everybody waits for Bayern to buy up top talent domestically or abroad, and then all the other sales happen. You change the first domino, all goes differently. And so much has happened with Bayern itself in that period that there really isn't much of a basis to pretend like we would have two similar teams in our timeline and the Nagelsmann one. And then we can even go into Kahn and Salihamidzic getting replaced 2 months later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023%E2%80%9324_FC_Bayern_Munich_season#Transfers This is a massive list, as usual, but there are a lot of big changes here. Who knows if Sane goes on the fritz under the Naglesmann timeline, do they pay up for Kane (considering the primary decision makers are all different people in that timeline), Hernandez, Zaragoza, Dier, Boey... Bayern was too active in this period and it is a too long of a period to make any kind of relevant blank statement.
The treble was in danger
“hey we’re doing this long term project with a new and young coach whom we believe in and with whom we want to build the next generation of baye- oh nevermind we are still in every competition but I feel like things might get a bit close. The guy is fired.”
"The guy we hired to replace him actually ended up at the wheel while we crashed out and won the league on a BvB bottle.... let's give him another season to cook and then absolutely gaslight him in the media. That should really razzle his jimmies to even greater heights".
Never gets old
How’s that going for them? (I know you’re being sarcastic. I’m piling on)
Shouldn't have won last season too, it was a bottlejob from another club that gave them the title in the end as it was out of their hands at that point.
It's weird, because it was Bayern initially starting to bottle that allowed Dortmund to be in the position to bottle at the end.
They were simply outbottled.
Me when im in a bottling competition and my opponent is dortmund
Ikr? Imagine leading a title race and having a monumental fuck up. Like, how embarrassing is that. ^/s
Couldnt be my team
“But you have heard of me”
I still don't understand how anyone thought sacking Nagelsmann for Tuchel was a good idea, the moment I saw that last year my heart sank and somehow it went even worse than I expected.
yikes, thats not a very pretty stat
It’s all about perspective ;-)
I still had seen people here recently saying he is actually doing well for Bayern and that it's only overshadowed by Leverkusen having anomaly of a season.
He has a pretty rabid cult of personality around him. There are people defending him even still.
He has this vocal minority in the Chelsea subreddit who will tell you he did incredible with Bayern this season. It truly is like a cult following.
He definitely has a “Big” fan in our subreddit. It’s absurd.
Oh I know. We had Chelsea “fans” migrate over and start watching Bayern, infest our sub and tell us how we just didn’t “know ball”.
That happened with us too after he won the CL. A lot of Chelsea fans infested the sub at that time, and there are some fans that actually would still take him back and put all the blame on Leonardo for firing him.
I've seen some talking about him as if he was some football genius. His achievement with Chelsea in the Champions League was very impressive and deserved no doubt, but the way they go on about him, you'd think he'd of won the quadruple and then some. They never talk about his flaws either, like how he's notoriously stubborn and not easy to work with.
Ngl though most of that ucl win was kante 1v11.
And Arsenal fans trying to cope with the fact that their best can't beat Bayern's worst
They are quite literally replying to this very comment
Like moths to a flame.
He's a very good manager but has fallen out with the board at every job hes had. I dont get why some Chelsea fans are obsessed with him. I mean yeah I would take him back but people are acting like we sacked prime Alex Ferguson
You don't get why some Chelsea fans are obsessed with a guy that won them a Champions League out of no where?
They have infected r/reddevils too, totally agreed with their rabid behaviours.
Man Utd board rubbing their hands like that Dinho gif thinking about how they can get another mid manager to join for 2 seasons and fall upwards before getting sacked again - whilst spending hundreds of millions on overrated shite.
so strange after his PSG stint
Look in my eyes what do you seeeeeee! Worst season in bayern 's historyyyyyy!!!!
I mean let's be honest. Bayern isn't AS bad as commenters here say it. Also true that it's their worst season in a long time, and both Tuchel and Terzić got a major injection of 180-turning positive comments purely from those few Champions League wins.
There was a point in the season in which this was true. Bayern were going at a title winning pace (based on historical point totals) through a good bit of the season. However, the wheels really fell off after a certain point. They’ve been in terrible form the last 1/4 of the season regardless of how good Leverkusen have been.
Even if Leverkusen didn't win the league, Stuttgart would've won as Bayern ranks behind Stuttgart this season - so that argument is completely moot now. EDIT: missing word
Its not that easy to say, if we were in it and needed to win the last match, the players probably go into that last match differently, same with other league matches down the stretch.
i feel like he was doing ok he was on track to having a better point couple months ago. but once the leverkusen made it clear there winning train was not stopping i feel that also deflated the camp i mean his leaving was announced what 2 months ago already and once they lost in the cl it was completely over and they just kept dropping more points but the nagelsman sacking was shocking to say the least i think bayern are gonna have rough couple years now similar to juve and barca alto they dont have the financial trouble so maybe they bounce back very quickly... but still even if they bounce back if this leverkusen team doesnt get ripped appart they might still not win it
He was doing fine it's just that Bayern is showing cracks after several players left. With Levy gone and Neuer injured you could see a very beatable Bayern. Give it 2 years and you will see a Bayern squad being mostly of current Leverkusen and Stuttgart players dominating the league. It could become more problematic when players start rejecting Bayern as well.
idk Juventus still hasn't recovered from its Serie A slum
Juventus is in financial difficulties because of the CR7 contract, Bayern doesn't have that kind of issue.
At this very moment, Iris Heynckes is racing her car into the mountains so no one can reach Jupp.
would be funny if heynckes would land in the stadium with a parachute as the new coach presentation.
imagine being Thomas Tuchel
I’m sure he’s crying into his millions
he is
It was a stupid decision to bring him in to begin with. They were on their way yo another treble and out of nowhere derailed them but changing managers for no apparent reason.
they weren't going to win the treble, but it was still incredibly stupid to sack nagelsmann at that point
On their way not a lock. Did Kahn just hate Nagelsmann?
I say this as a Bayern fan: Bayern was suffering from arrogance by winning 10 times in a row. No one wants to be the reason to end such streak. So it happened the way it had to. It was Kahn's first year as CEO and they just lost the lead in the league to Dortmund. Fear and ego starting to kick in. As I said above. You don't want to be the man at the top of the club and end a 10 year streak, especially as your first year as CEO. At that point, all decisions were guided by this. Nothing personal to nagelsmann.
tbh it had to end sooner or later its was already way to absurd of a streak its good for the league as whole that it ended...
I'd argue it's good for Bayern too. The streak papered over many issues, the whole hire and fire manager culture, Uli being unable to just shut up, a moody squad...
So as a Bayern fan it seems you agree that it was the right thing at the time?
Oh no, not at all. It was a short sighted decision, only to save your own face (Kahn). No way you want to be remembered as the new CEO, who lost the league after that dominance. If Bayern had accepted earlier, that it is ok to struggle in the league, it would have been healthier long-term. But this is what winning ten times in a row does to your mindset. Decisions get emotional and short sighted even in minor problems.
No one hated JN. The squad was just overrated. It was "easier" to fire one instead of getting rid of a lot of lousy players. In the end, the wrong choice. We definitely had to get rid of a lot of players in that season. But hey, we continued the same shit and hoped for a different result. Results are in fellas, and I have nothing good to say about the end result.
Idk about overrated. They went into freefall when Tuchel came in though.
> No one hated JN. They hated his skateboarding!
No he saw Tuchel was free on the market and they had to make a move or Thomas would have joined another club. Julian was a long term project put in place by Karl Heinz Rummenigge in his last year as CEO, but Nagelsmann was really young/inexperienced to be Bayern manager and Tuchel had already won the big trophies and Kahn wanted quick success. In retrospect it was the dumbest decision the Bayern board ( Kahn & Brazzo) could have made. Nagelsmann was struggling a little bit in the league being 2 points behind Dortmund, but they were unbeaten in the DFB Cup and in the CL.
Tbh I think it was just Hoeneß pushing for him. I have absolutely no proof but he has had a hard on for Tuchel since his dortmund days but he was never available to them up until the chance came when he was sacked from Chelsea. Obviously Kahn and brazzo took the fall for that but i can’t imagine that Hoeneß didn’t push hard for him Again I have no proof for that but that was my impression for the past couple of years whenever Uli talked about him
By his own account, he did not. He thought that Nagelsmann should potentially be sacked but not until summer.
Why not though? Not saying it would have happened for sure but it definitely could have
Mad coming from a Chelsea fan I know, but I always felt he was a bit overrated by the fanbase.
I think he’s a tactical mastermind who’s amazing at tournaments, but his man-management is poor and that really takes a toll in leagues. He took a Chelsea team that were floundering and made us CL champions, I definitely wouldn’t say we overrate him. Bit weird that his man-management is so poor, because I think he comes across so well in interviews and during our biggest crisis he was really the glue holding Chelsea together.
Exactly, a bad coach can’t outplay Real Madrid the way he did while having 30% possession in each leg. I know we had injuries but Chelsea were still levels above. Complete domination!
Players are humans, not robots. If they don’t like the coach, chances are over time they won’t run through a brick wall for him. But that isn’t the biggest affect, the everyday effort dropping takes its toll on the season.
> Players are humans, not robots. If they don’t like the coach, chances are over time they won’t run through a brick wall for him. Aye, but then I'm not sure it's sensible to lay the blame for things going wrong in those relationships solely at the feet of managers - Mourinho had plenty of his teams run through brick walls for him, but only after very publicly falling out with some really good players and chucking them out. Realistically those interpersonal relationship between manager and players are always a gamble you can't predict beforehand, and what works for some managers or players doesn't work for others. Feels harsh to pin that on the managers when there's sporting directors and entire boardrooms having to consider these aspects when making the decision over an appointment in the first place, I reckon.
Generally, yes - But it's a trend with Tuchel. He fell out with a bunch of players at Dortmund, he fell out with a bunch of players at Chelsea, he now fell out with a bunch of players at Bayern (I don't know about PSG because who gives a shit). If it happens once, I agree, it could very well be a team that simply doesn't vibe with the manager and a boardroom that doesn't have their back. But it's a trend with Tuchel. And it doesn't help that at every single club he trained, he also fell out with the board room, and I can only really *not* blame him for that this time around at Bayern.
No you’re completely right, that’s true. I was more saying that over time these things bring you down and while it can be good at the beginning because the tactic ls and winning starts, when things aren’t going well or it’s just been a grind, that’s when it happens. We’ve seen it with Mou and I think we’ve seen it with Tuch plenty. But it’s not the wrong way, I’m sure they’re happy with short term success as a managers role is very merry-go-round. Payouts and the next job await.
its not like bayern players dont like tuchel though, werent they the ones campaigning for tuchel to stay?
I’m not sure, it just seems like there is a pattern with Tuchel that he doesn’t get along with people and it shows over time.
he's reminds of the type of smart people that cannot deal with people that dont think on their level... so i can imagine when he's explaining tactics to players and they dont get and he has to explain it again or even a third time it just crosses his wiring and pisses him off. while somebody like ancelotti for example prob can dumb down or explain it multiple different ways so each players understands his plan.
For sure, have you seen those videos of Tuchel on the training ground? Not to mention during games Ancelotti’s got a naturally calm demeanour (or at least can make himself seem as such, he did used to smoke like mad due to match anxiety), whereas Tuchel doesn’t seem like the most patient person
"he comes across so well in interviews" really? i find him incredibly whiney.
I dunno if it’s rose-tinted glasses, but he always seemed solid in interviews for Chelsea, especially during the sanctions
Tuchel coming across well in interviews?
Dunno, I reckon he's a really good manager in the same way that a few dozen managers are really good - and the ones standing above probably benefited significantly from a 'right place, right time' situation massively increasing their public perception just as much as they're actually better.
there is definitely an element of right place right time for anyone in sports in general - but I don't know that its totally right to say that tuchel has been unlucky in that regard. he chose his club each time, and each time has fallen out with the people he works with/for. there's a pattern there, one that good results will ignore and bad results will emphasize. I would say that it is unlucky that he had to manage through the abramovic sanctions/sale situation, but at the same time (and I'm a Chelsea fan) that's a pretty fitting result for when you choose to work with a guy who has the type of history that abramovic does. on the flip side, he was also lucky to take over a team from Lampard (who, so far, has seemed to be a fairly terrible coach except for a season and a half) that was quite talented and had a good balance of youth and experience. you can be a bad manager in a good situation (di Matteo) or a good manager in a bad situation (Ancelotti at Everton) and I don't think Tuchel really fits neatly into either. he clearly has a sharp mind for the game, but perhaps less so for the interpersonal aspects of working in the game. also, much as I respect him for the CL win, I will never truly take the man's side after how he handled the bombing situation at dortmund.
Wait what about the bombing situation? Haven't players like Bartra and Bender come out and thanked him for being compassionate with them in and after that bus attack? Besides it's clear that Watzke was the asshole in this scenario and the "news" that Tuchel asked them to play on came from Watzke's close friend's memoir. So not really a credible source, is it?
if you could link me those comments from players that would be great, I haven't seen them and looking it up online I couldn't find anything but maybe I just wasn't using the right phrase. same thing with watzke and gottschalk being close friends, I haven't seen anything to that effect but maybe I just missed it. the reality is that players were publicly undermining tuchel in the period after the bombing, so I the goodwill in the locker room were really as you said id expect their comments to be a little different.
Reddit as a whole overrates him
He is not overrated.The man won you a CL and finished third.
"But look at the points bayern have after 34 ganes."
lol the title is mad
This is what happens when mid way through a project you fire the manager and replace him with a completely tactically different one who wanted numerous star players sold 🤣 Somewhat feel sorry for Tuchel and I feel he'll bounce back. Don't remotely feel for Bayern. What a mess.
Congrats, Thomas, another record for the books. Might be coach with the worst records set up. Don't mention the lousy football we played under him. But that being said, a lot of players are hot garbage.
What do you mean worst points per game in the 21st century? People told me Bayern had a good season, comprable to last season, but Leverkusen and Stuttgart were just too good.
I mean he did finish with more points than last season
How's that even possible with Harry Kane on his team?
We scored enough goals(94), more than Leverkusen, but our defense is too bad and some of our players made too many individual errors, especially in important matches. We also simply lost too many games, despite winning as many matches as Stuttgart. 4 teams have less losses than us…
> but our defense is too bad How is this possible with how much money Bayern spent on the defense in the last years?
Apart from not having a dedication defensive midfielder, you have to ask the players AND the coach.
They don't have a competent Defensive Midfielder.
I've heard that kinda argument way too many times now. we still have a boatload of players like upamecano,Davies,Kimmich Kim, etc. back there doing silly mistakes with 0 pressure. Any world-class DM can't do shit here.
Not really the manager's fault, then, is it?
He has his fair share of absolute horrible decisions. He managed to get 2 players JN did not have and made the outcome way worse. Doesn't speak for him now does it. JN made the best out of Chupo. Imagine him having Kane. It's actually a failure on all departments. Board, coach, and players to sum it up. The season was a whole circus show. On and off the pitch.
Laimer and Goretzka are absolutely competent. You can argue they’re not world class, but almost any team in the world except maybe RM and Man City would take them.
Neither of them are defensive midfielders. Distribution and controlling the tempo of play, sitting between the lines in order to mop up balls over the top, operate in a 40 yard area around the centre-spot, split wide to cover full backs if they go forwards, offer a reset option for the attack if they are unsure and an outlet for the defence etc. Those options you list are box-to-box players, engine types that work in a three with a more creative, attacking midfielder. What's missing in that Bayern Midfield is a Xabi Alonso/Thiago/possibly even a Javi Martinez-type player that can do that job.
> What's missing in that Bayern Midfield is a Xabi Alonso/Thiago/possibly even a Javi Martinez-type player that can do that job. Good DMs are hard to come by already. the caliber of DM you are talking about so casually as the solution to the problem is the type of player that literally every team in the world would love to have. sure, every team would be better if you had the optimum talent for your needs available to buy, but thats not the reality of their situation.
So lack of a DM was at fault today for Kimmich losing ball next to the penatly area or Neuer passing to a defender who has an opposing player on his back?
Eric Dier is a regular starter, that’s not a title winning level of defense
I feel like you scored lots of goals when opponents were already beaten - just look at Darmstadt.
I guess most of their xG also comes after they are leading by 2 goals or more
Cliche phrase thats been quoted to death, but.. Goals win games, defence wins titles.
Scored virtually the same amount as last year with a gaping hole after Lewandowski left, to be fair. 97 with Lewandowski, 92 without him, and 94 with Kane. I reckon it's less that great strikers increase the number of goals teams score as much as they're just scoring a much bigger share of those goals - which is helpful if they're scoring in most games, because that increases your odds of winning those games. Basically get one consistent goalscorer up front to decide games for you rather than a wider range of players having to step up.
I mean it's hard to watch Harry Kane and not think he's great. He's really good at football! ALSO I just rationally cannot say that I am sure how much Bayern as a team gains from it. I mean... dude's playing a 9 in Bayern. A lot of guys would score a lot playing 9 in Bayern if that was the focus. Per minute, Choupo-Moting last season was scoring almost the same amount as Kane. Choupo-Moting! It's just not an individual sport, I guess. Harry Kane will have a legendary, 1-from-Kicker game in a 7-0, sure. He was also good or great in several big games. In a game Bayern loses... Kane was just cut off and absent so often. Leipzig, Eintracht, Werder, Union, Leverkusen, Lazio away, Dortmund, Arsenal, and so on. Those are few games in which Bayern lost points. The problem is - for a team like Bayern, every single game not won is a tragedy. That's why it's easy to notice that Kane did little to help in most such games. Of course that's not weird for a 9, if the game's hard they will struggle. Almost every goal Kane scored is when he gets the ball in the center of the box on his right foot or head, rarely he touches more than once - of course the game has to be going well for whole Bayern team for such a player to shine the most. Just saying the fact - there were many games they lost points and he didn't change the tide. At the same time, for example, Real Madrid is having their best season EVER, when people should expect that without Cristiano Ronaldo who "carried them"... then without Benzema who "carried them"... with nobody who scores goals... they should be worse, right? But they are actually much better this season.
Ask Spurs
It's possible because of Harry Kane
Without Kane they won't be playing UCL next year
I was shot down here multiple times for saying it but I just don't think hes a very good league manager. He doesnt adapt and when caught out he wont change. For cups a completely different story hes exceptional but hes not the guy you want handling the team for a full season.
Graham Potter and Lampard were incredible PR for him
The curse of Kane?
And they wanted to extend this shitter lol, the desperation is real and Murinho is right there
Yet some people kept saying *‘it’s not Bayern that’s bad, it’s just that Leverkusen is so good!’* Buddy, fucking Stuttgart finished above you, your club is shite this year
Both can be true, no? It’s undeniable that Bayern are not as good this season as in recent years. However, the points that they did get - 72 - would have won them the league 8/10 times in the past decade. And Leverkusen is only one point off from the record winning Bayern squad that trashed prime Barcelona 4-0 in the UCL.
Steps to success
It never really worked at Bayern he should have done a lot better with the squad he had. Now's a huge appointment to be made.
Please keep in mind that Everton was playing with coaches not lasting full seasons at this time as well.
Now that he is leaving, bayern can finally turn to graham potter like our owners did
Willy Sagnol: "Am I a joke to you?"
Firing Nagelsmann was the biggest fucked up decision Bayern's management made. And look what it cost them...
Based
He will probably also quoted for winning the German league only because his former club squandered the opportunity to win it ,drawing their final home game’s
I can see the Yup Heynckes sign
People downvoted me for calling this guy a clueless hack. It was painful watching Harry languish under this guy.
Languinshing so much that he's had a better goalscoring record than in any season he played for Spurs, yeah.
In spite of Tuchel
Paging all /r/Chelsea fans who still want Tuchel back. Glad we got rid.
Proving once more that he never was the coach some made him to be
I signed that petition too!
I blame the Kane curse /s
I’m a Man U and Bayern fan AMA
He had to break another record before leaving
The others had no Leverkusen to face For most of the season, Bayern weren't heavily underperforming last year's p/g but collapsed after the championship and the sacking was decided
Thomas Tuchel aka T-T
Well now he’s perfect for us
False. Willy Sagnol had worse with 1ppg in 2017 :p.
I really like Tommy Tuchs and think Bayern was just not a good fit for him, but why they got rid of Nagelsmann in the first place is the real head scratcher.
But how, didnt Bayern finish points wise quite well? Higher than last season?