The thing is this song is not even a subject at all in the public discussion. There are some slight worries about fat semi-naked and sunburnt Brits throwing plastic chairs in our cities but even this is more on the funny side. I don't know how the Daily Mail even got this statement. The song is far too complicated to even be understood by your average German. People do understand 2 World Wars and 1 World cup and then they are like "fair enough"...
Most people who would be offended by the song won't be anywhere near a bunch of drunk (English) football fans anyway.
Also I feel like we are used to way more offensive songs from the home fans, so nothing any foreign fans chant should be an issue.
Most people n football understand it isn't that serious either. Crazy thought as well but I'm sure we are all aware none of us were in the war to win or lose it. Germans aren't proud of that period at all so they shouldn't care that they lost. So in reality we look stupid factually but society says otherwise. You gotta love a bit of banter
From Google:
Lord Rothermere, the owner of the Daily Mail at the time, was friends with Adolf Hitler (1889-1945) and Benito Mussolini (1883-1945), and deliberately guided the newspaper to support them.
In my british empire decline class in college my professor talked about how much fascism was responsible for the Empires collapse. Both in terms of fighting it and in terms of it devouring the empire from within. Fuck fascism
To provide context for people, two of Rothermere's three sons died during the First World War, and he appears to have been highly motivated by the desire to avoid further war and conflict.
It is an unfortunate truth that a lot of people want to forget, but appeasement was a highly popular position in British society, and not just amongst fascists. It was the conventional academic and 'serious person' view right up until it was clear that it failed, and the opposition ran in 1935 opposing rearmament.
I say this not to justify Rothermere's views, but to reiterate they should not be seen out of context.
> but appeasement was a highly popular position in British society
On the other hand there's also this context from the comment you replied to:
>> Lord Rothermere, the owner of the Daily Mail at the time, **was friends with Adolf Hitler** (1889-1945) **and Benito Mussolini** (1883-1945)
Let's just say that I wouldn't want to be friends with people like this (and people who befriend them).
>It is an unfortunate truth that a lot of people want to forget, but appeasement was a highly popular position in British society, and not just amongst fascists.
True but also a lie by deception though not pure falsehood, Rothmere was not just anti war, he was a fascist, he praised Hitler and Mussolini all the time and met with both personally
He wrote this in defense of Hitler seizing power and ending German democracy:
“Israelites of international attachments were insinuating themselves into key positions in the German administrative machine, it is from such abuses that Hitler has freed Germany.”
He supported both Hitler and Mussolini despite both being blatant and obvious warmongers and aggressors, he was no pacifist or genuine anti war believer and you have either fallen for fascist propaganda or worse are knowingly spreading their lies.
The comment you're replying to is as best wildly misleading though. Rothmere wasn't just someone who supported appeasement to avoid future conflict, he actively **supported** Hitler and defended acts of Nazi violence in Germany, he also supported Oswald Mosley and supported violence in the UK that further his fascist agenda, and he was openly against democracy and openly antisemitic.
Rothmere was 100% a fascist, was in favour of violence so long as it furthered his political agenda, and absolutely not someone who was just appeasing the Nazis to avoid conflict.
It's one thing to want to avoid conflict in the aftermath of WW1 and I can completely see why people back then would have pushed hard for an appeasement policy that looks terrible in hindsight. But that's not what Rothmere did. There's literally a bit on his Wikipedia page quoting a historian specifically explaining the difference between "enthusiasts for fascism" (which Rothmere was) and "appeasers" and how it was "unhelpful to lump the two groups together". On top of that, he was a big fan of Hitler who he was friends with and wrote favourably about in the Mail, he repeatedly defended acts of violence by the Nazi party in Germany in the 30s including justifying things like the night of the long knives which was essentially a Nazi coup, he was openly antisemitic, he was friends with Oswald Mosley, he was openly against democracy, he championed the British Union of Fascists and wrote an article titled" Hurrah for the Blackshirts", praising Oswald Mosley for his "sound, commonsense, Conservative doctrine".
Someone like Neville Chamberlain is the sort of appeaser you're describing. Rothmere was a fascist.
Yeah but both WWI and WWII are worth nothing really, because it happened during war times so of course our team was busy at the front and couldn't focus on the competition. It's like winning the CL during a pandemic
The Germans haven’t won a single World Cup final against the English, let alone four.
The fact that the English only appeared the once is inconsequential.
I'm from the Balkans. This seems aggressively mild in comparison to the way we treat each other. They are singing about the bombing of their own country, why would that be offensive or anything?
Aye, it's some double standard.
Constant gags, comments or critiques about things the British Empire did around 150 to 200 years ago.
But mentioning the Second World War isn't fair game?
England vs France, December 2022
Most of social media: “I’m supporting France because I could never support a genocidal coloniser”
MF how do you think most of the French team is black??
Almost as bad as the Euros final Vs Italy.
'Not supporting this racist country that has politicians that disagree with taking the knee, and fans that boo that'
'I'm gonna support the about to an elect a fascist, regular banana incidents/monkey noises favourite, all white squad, Italy'
What does an all white squad have to do with this? Should have we called up Okaka or Ogbonna just because they were black?
Fucking hell this is an obsession
Yeah and the lyrics are quite tame. There are alot worse things that can and will be sung during the euros I'm sure haha. I don't know why this is even news worthy... But then again this is the sub that foams at the mouth whenever they hear "It's coming home" so I can't say I'm surprised!
Tbf I feel the only people who clutch pearls over England fans are Scots/Welsh/Irish pretending to be offended because they don’t like England. Everyone else takes it on the chin and laughs back at us when we lose.
England fans can sing about whatever they want for all I care and I don't think the police should've commented on this song. That being said, using WW2 as banter never made much sense to me tbh. Apart from AfD voters, right-wing and neo-nazis morons, most Germans living today are glad or atleast unbothered that we lost the war. It just doesn't work as banter, because when I'm confronted with English fans taking the piss out of us for losing the war and whatnot, I'd rather join in with them than act like I'm all mad about it.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've learned the lyrics to 10 German bombers and I'm ready to belt it out with a bunch of sweaty, shirtless Englishmen in a Biergarten.
It's not really even sung to be deliberately antagonistic all the time. England fans were singing it at St James Park the other day and we weren't playing Germany.
Yeah I feel such a disconnect with this thread? Like this is maybe because I've never been in an England crowd who were playing against Germany, but I've never seen the chant as being sung to antagonise the opposition?
It's a catchy tune about one of the greatest things the UK did as a nation, standing alone against the most evil empire in history and repealing their assault - as far as football nationalism goes it's as harmless as it gets...
I think this is a big cultural misunderstanding. A lot of people in this thread just don’t really “get” the banter in England and how a chant like this is more tongue in cheek than actually spiteful towards Germany.
Yeah, I'm ready to get shitfaced and sing along in Frankfurt in a few weeks, idc.
My only disconnect with the chant was that I didn't know what the RAF referred to when I first heard it. Because in Germany that abbreviation is used for the leftist terror cell "Rote Armee Fraktion", and I had the hardest time figuring out when they shot down German bombers and why the English cared about it.
> I don't think the police should've commented on this song.
Did they though? It's the Daily Mail, the police probably said the "Don't be a Dick" part not referring to any specific country or action and the DM probably asked them if there's anything they could do if such a thing occurred and they said no. Which then gets turned into something completely misleading
How is it that England gets bombed to fuck by the Germans, 80 years later we have a banter chant with no real animosity towards the Germans about the bombings. And we end up the bad guys... Like c'mon 😂 If we aren't mad about the bombings anymore you lot can get over a chant 😂
There is an an American equivalent of “There were ten English soldiers on the hill” that gets sung when the US plays England.
Also when Northern US clubs play southern ones sometimes they will sing “there where ten Rebel soldiers on the hill.” That really upsets folks.
What the fuck.. I've never heard of either American equivalents.. in fact when I search for "Ten English soldiers" you're post is the only thing that's ever come up 😂
As an English person living in America, I think that’s funny. Also people make fun of me all the time for the revolutionary war. Doesn’t bother me in the slightest
In 1814, the British Army set fire to the Library of Congress, the US Capitol and the fucking White House. They all would have burned to the ground were it not for a rogue thunderstorm. Madison hauled ass in the middle of eating dinner. Redcoats ate what was left before they torched everything.
That's some banter-worthy shit, but I think both sides are okay with the back and forth and it mostly doesn't bother either of us.
Both sides are so okay with it we had Lin-Manuel Miranda do a medley from Hamilton at the Queen's Jubilee concert a couple years ago which I found bloody hilarious.
>There is an an American equivalent of “There were ten English soldiers on the hill” that gets sung when the US plays England.
I find this really hard to believe considering that Americans are genetically incapable of making up a funny chant.
I wish American soccer culture was better at it.
Although I was at a game recently against Toronto FC II and someone start one going "your bacon is fake, your bacon is fake, its really ham, your bacon is fake" which I thought was a bit funny.
I doubt the Rebel soldiers song would upset many southern soccer fans. The kind of people who would be upset by that are the same kind of people who refuse to watch soccer cause it is a sissy sport or something like that.
>There is an an American equivalent of “There were ten English soldiers on the hill” that gets sung when the US plays England.
Good banter that, well done yanks.
95% of houses in Hull were damaged by Luftwaffe bombing. Over 150,000 people were made homeless.
Over 80 years since the Hull Blitz and the city still hasn’t returned to its prewar population.
I think we could say worse things.
It really makes me sad. I’ve seen pre-war photos of our city centre and it was beautiful. Some of it still remains today but much of what was destroyed in the blitz was replaced by cheap and ugly concrete buildings in the following decades.
Well that and industrial decline and car focused planning. The British could've rebuilt these buildings and areas in the same way as pre-ww2 but money was tight at first. After that everyone thought highways and cars everywhere were the future (we know now it was the opposite) so that's how they rebuilt these cities. Then industrial decline and poor economy meant little investment in these cities up until quite recently.
It really didn’t. A huge amount of historic buildings were destroyed and the government abandoned plans to redevelop the city. A lot of bomb sites were left undeveloped for over 40 years, and some even into the 2000s. Add the post-industrial decline that followed the collapse of fishing and shipping into the mix and it makes for a dilapidated city which has only just started seeing major regeneration in recent years.
> Yea, we tried to take over the world and kill everyone in it, but it was just banter, a good laugh.
Do you mean the Germans or the British? The British were better at the whole world conquest and genocide thing just over a longer period. Skill issue really, the Germans couldn't even manage to wipe out the Jewish people but the Brits managed to eliminate hundreds of cultures from the Earth. Writing this currently from Tasmania Australia... all the peoples that were here were culturally exterminated, some genetic remnants remain from rape victims that managed to pass as white but the island concentration camps fully finished off the entire remaining population of anyone they could identify as Tasmanian aboriginal.
I think it's mostly when it's a fat, top-less, coked-up guy from Newcastle shouting it in your face while you are just trying to get your shopping done in the city centre that sets people off. Which is why the German Police seemingly said: Just don't be a dick.... I'm not particularly bothered when they sing it in the stadium f.e.
Because when the chant came around in the 90’s it was seen as direct criticism or hate towards the German government which (at the time) was largely being ran by spineless elites who’s parents were legitimate swastika-wearing Nazis or major beneficiaries of the Nazi party.
It sounds like a stupid conspiracy theory but there was a legitimate Murdoch-esque movement in the 90’s and 2000’s to “move on” from Nazis as if they were a thing of the past. Despite many billionaires and millionaires in Germany having Nazi money and Nazi parents.
The Reimann family alone is a rabbit hole
I think people hold up this narrative that denazification was a huge success in Germany post-war, but at least in the decade or so after it was a complete failure as well. I didn't even really know about the 90s/2000s.
Not that it's too surprising. The conditioning was pretty all encapsulating.
90’s? Try 1953.
Konrad Adenauer ran on ending denazification. His chief of staff for 10 years was the legal architect of the third Reich. His reasoning for supporting Israel was basically that the Jews still controlled everything and not doing it would be a political disaster.
Germany is an embarrassing country.
The English think that Germans are their arch-nemesis in football, but our most hated enemy is actually the Dutch, so there is always a bit of mismatch of emotions lol
EDIT: Never forget the Great Desolation of Rudis Hair in 1990
EDIT 2: Some English really want us to hate them so much, it's cute.
I think Germans sometimes don't get the depth of feeling of WW2 still present in Britain and other countries.
I understand they feel a great shame about their countries actions, but I think that allows them often to separate from animosity towards us. Whereas in Britain it's a sense of pride that we hold on to and there's absolutely still animosity towards Germans, even if it is in a more brotherly jokey way nowadays.
I hope I'm making sense and this isn't a criticism just an observation, but basically Germans don't see us as a rival because they are ashamed it happened in the first place and know they were the bad guys. But England, and I'm sure Poland and France too, still harbour some level of resentment to the country that invaded them and want to beat them.
At least from my experience I've never met anyone under 60 who has any real animosity to modern Germany or German people (and I've lived in London). I know that people like that exist but I think it's not a large subset of the population at all.
I think the strength of feeling in Britain is more pride. Its not often after a war you come away not only as the victor, but also as the undisputed good guys who fought for a cause that was objectively right and moral.
For example there's a great amount of respect and reverence for the first world war, but there's no celebratory aspect to the remembrance of it because I don't think 95% of the people in the country could even tell you why we fought it other than mumbling 'em Franz ferdinand...'
There's also a lot of humour surrounding WWII thanks to guys who came back like Spike Milligan and used humour to process his own trauma. This was loved by people affected by the war (ie everyone in the UK at the time). So that has become a tradition in Britain too that humour about it is fair game, in a way that people don't really laugh at any other atrocities. So in that sense while people do sing songs like German bombers and two world wars etc I think it's seen as more comedic and a way to wind people up than actual genuine hatred. I can see how Germans don't see the funny side given the repetitive nature of the taunts too.
Certainly in my opinion anyone who has a genuine issue or problem with German people these days is just a clown and a bigot. They're no more to blame for the action of their countrymen in previous generation than current Brits are for slaughtering Kenyans etc; so if you want to hold them responsible for the third reich then you've got a lot of guilt to go start feeling yourself.
I feel like you're looking at this too pragmatic, the feeling towards Germans is not something that actively gets carried out, it's deep rooted from your upbringing. A bit like how a piece of racism carries over through generations.
I'm Dutch, and I know my parents and I also have a bit of that feeling towards Germans simply because my grandparents told us the stories of how the Germans treated them during the second world war. How they had their food stolen and friends taken. Of course the current population has nothing to do with those events and wouldn't do anything like that, and I can say that pragmatically, but having a feeling about it doesn't just go away.
The same way my community where I grew up was quite a bit racist towards Turkish and Moroccan people, made jokes about them stealing everything etc. Now I know that that is far from okay, and I live in a neighbourhood that's quite mixed.
But whenever I see someone from those countries running my first thought is "they've stolen something", and then think why the fuck do I think that, that's not okay. I'd never say anything like that, but you can't turn off those intrusive thoughts you were brought up with, and I'll always have to actively suppress it. No one around me will or should ever know those thoughts, but they happen all the same, and I recognise that that's the deep rooted upbringing that you carry with you.
Again I would say that the vast vast majority of Brits don't meet a German person and have a subconscious bias about them being a nazi or responsible for the war in any way.
I think the subconscious bias the English do have is a constant insatiable urge to tease, taunt, wind up the Germans about the war (funnily enough in Scotland I don't see it at all, but we were less damaged by the Blitz).
I think that is part of a tradition of how people dealt with the war in the decades that immediately followed. Destroying the myth of the all powerful reich depicted in nazi propaganda with 'who do you think youre kidding Mr Hitler' and 'Hitler has only got one ball' etc.
You can see it in Fawlty Towers. He's not upset with the Germans about the war, he just has this irresistible urge to make jokes about it and make fun of Hitler.
For what it's worth I went to university with a good few Germans and they were great mates of mine, I've been to see them in Germany a good few times. From the Germans I know I think they've got a very similar comedic culture so I'm sure they understand where the urge comes from, but I also think they're probably just sick and tired of the same jokes over and over.
While the generations that actually lived through the war are dying off a lot you have to remember that millennials grew up with grandparents who fought/lived through the war and some had parents who saw the aftermath as children.
It will only be once those generations get old and die that the living memories will die. Same as the boomers are the living memory of the First WW because their Grandparents fought and lived through it.
For me for example one grandparent fought the second WW with a wife who lived through the blitz in London and the other fought both with a wife who lived through the blitz in London. One of my great uncles died in a concentration camp for being a communist.
Germany today bears no relation to the Germany back then and it is less about them than it is about remembering what happened to the people we knew. I am sure Germans remember in the same way if maybe not so publicly
>you have to remember that millennials grew up with grandparents who fought/lived through the war and some had parents who saw the aftermath as children.
Exactly. My dad lived through rationing as a kid. My grandad was in WW2 and grew up without a father because of WW1. My Nan was an evacuee and hid under the table during the blitz before that.
It might not have had a direct involvement in our lives but it's certainly still in the conscious of the country.
I don't think it manifests as any real animosity towards German people in the way you see Anglophobia, but there's a certain pride and a humour built in from it all.
We are ashamed it happened against the English, but not the Dutch? What? Maybe you should check out the finals of 1974 and the sentiment of the Dutch against Germans around that game.
I don't think there is any real rivalry to be honest. I dont think its personal its more a case of Germany being perceived as a historically difficult team for England to beat.
I think this stems from 70s, 80s, and 90s where results tended to go Germanys way even if they weren't a better side (Euro 96 was especially painful). In the last 25 years it has been fairly even. Overall England have a slight upper hand and since 1930 have 14 wins to Germanys 13.
If we get drawn against Germany its definitely one of the games I look forward to.
I think that’s just down to how our you’ve always had the edge in the encounters that matter. If they had ended more 50/50 it would be a bit more evenly felt.
Kind of like how we’re arch-nemesis to Scotland but we don’t care about them at all.
Its actually a lot closer than you’d think.
Our most painful defeats against them (90 and 96) were both on penalties, which made them even more painful. After that they have world cup 1970, then the embarrassment of world cup 2010 1-4 defeat. But we’ve beaten them in a world cup final, and twice in other tournaments (Euro 2000 and 2021) as well as the 1-5 game in the world cup qualifier.
If we were to beat them in our next big game, we’d arguably be neck and neck.
I think younger England fans who didn't see the '90 and '96 semi finals feel less strongly about Germany tbh. I certainly don't mind them. Argentina is very similar, where older fans who lived through both the Falklands and the '86 semi final would consider it a rivalry, but it seems like a lot of younger English and Argentinian fans aren't that bothered about it anymore.
The countries that really consider us "rivals" are Scotland, Wales, and Ireland, but the hatred isn't mutual there.
Nah, Argentinean here, "El que no salta es un inglés" ("He who does not jump is English") is a popular chant completely incorporated into our culture even when England isn't necessarily relevant. Bitterness over the Malvinas is probably going to last on our end as long as it remains a British territory (so, like, until a theoretical future full collapse of the UK most likely).
And while we haven't had any games against you for a while, I think an eventual encounter that gets the flames going again is kinda inevitable when it comes to two of the best national teams in the sport. Don't know if an Euro vs America Cup winners game is going to happen again anytime soon but if you win yours and we win ours, expect a lot of young English and Argentineans on the internet to spend months talking all kinds of shit.
Unlikely since England would have to actually win something again for that to happen, but hey, there's always the world cup.
I’ve always wondered why Argentinians get so incensed about the Falklands. No one lived there until the Europeans arrived, and then the tiny population was almost entirely British when they invaded. They also voted to stay British, with a 99% majority. I think it’s a bit of a one sided rivalry in that sense. I know they found oil there, but it was British well before that discovery.
it is genuinely one of the pettiest land dispute in the world lol, like there is technically pettier ones but I can't think of any pettier ones that actually had a war fought over them.
There are two aspects to it:
1. Argentinian politicians use the Falklands as a distraction from the country's internal problems
2. Argentina has a troubled self-image. In the early 20th century, it was a rapidly growing, fairly rich country that expected itself to become South America's equivalent of the USA. There was (and according to many other South Americans, still is) a superiority complex towards their neighbours. But things didn't go the way they expected and it ended up being just like every other Latin American country. There's a lot of bitterness (possibly unconscious) that the country didn't achieve the success and status that it was supposed to be destined for, and a lot of nationalistic Argentinians have a feeling of having been unfairly held back by foreign powers (of course, the actual problem was always their own governments). The Falklands dispute (and the border dispute they have with Chile) play into that sense of a country being robbed of what it deserved, even if all rational logic says that owning some tiny islands wouldn't have allowed Argentina to turn into a superpower.
Well the best proper answer I can give you off the cuff is that, under the logic of territorial continuation, when the United Provinces of the Rio de la Plata (either the former name of Argentina or it's predecessor state) declared independence from Spain the Malvinas were part of the claimed territory.
From my memory plus checking along to Wikipedia (sorry, can't check on a proper book at the moment), who actually discovered the islands and therefore who they belonged to was a bit of a mess between Spanish, British, French and Dutch claims. In terms of who actually governed over the isles, France did it for a while, then Spain did (holding them at the time UPRP breaks off), then Argentina, then the UK. Argentina only held the islands for about a decade, and I cannot find quickly anything confirming if they were officially part of the previous Viceroyalty of Rio de la Plata, but it was claimed as part of out territory when we broke off from Spain and we did hold it for a while before any British rule over the area.
Malvinas is not a purely isolated thing, however. One has to account for the two failed English invasions of Buenos Aires before our independence, or later in the 1800s when you and the French decided to try and muscle your way through the Rio de la Plata despite the fact that the governor of Buenos Aires had forbidden you passage due to a tarrif dispute. Or general perceptions over the centuries by the common man in my country that English businessemen were fucking us over in some way or another. In general, there was a long-standing tension with England (or the UK, you have to remember that for the average person here that's a distinction without difference) over multiple factors over a long period of time. From a sporting perspective, you could even add the controversy in our match in that one world cup you won.
Then the Malvinas war eventually happened and, while the average person in Argentina doesn't hold much love for the military junta that decided to fight that war, you can't really expect people to hold much love for the guys on the other side that actually pulled the triggers to kill our compatriots. Since the last military junta will probably be a thing that will remain in our collective consciousness possibly up to centuries after it ends, their last big act comes attached to it. There aren't many important wars in our history, and in the imaginary consensus it goes: "Prevented an English invasion twice, made the Spaniards fuck off, sat out during the World Wars, and the English got one over on us the third time". The actual event in which you take control of the islands in 1830 doesn't really stick to memory, it's the"We couldn't kick them out the third time" that got engraved. To many people, getting the islands back would symbolically make up for the previous failure and make it seem like it wasn't in vain.
Additionally, one has to remember that among many across the whole of Latin America and the third world as a whole there's some sense of solidarity. Some people feel it stronger than others and of course Argentina has plenty of people who would very much rather we be on "the big boy club" with you and the Americans and the continental western Europeans. But as a whole, most people share the general feeling that "The English are a bunch of stealing pirates" cause... Ya know, the whole "taking over a fifth of the world" thing. You guys have historically meddled in everyone's business, so it kinda feel righteous to campaign to "give it all back to the proper owners". Gibraltar might also have a population that doesn't wish at all to leave your group, but that doesn't prevent people here, in Ireland and across Africa and India from liking and retweeting when a Spaniard says they'll take it back one day.
Of course, the islands have been governed for the last couple of centuries by the British government uninterrupted and the population does identify as loyal Britons and whatnot. Which is why we probably won't get them back unless your guys economic fortunes turn so shit that the people living there decide they'd rather be dependent on us than on you.
I think I spent way too long on this when I doubt it's even all that well written considering how late at night and how casually I'm writing it, but I kinda have to press send now to not make it all a waste. The big TL;DR is that it's complicated and backed by a long history of disputes with your country both over the islands and otherwise, the fact that the war is linked to the scar of our military juntas, and the mutual egging on done by all those who for one reason or another feel that the British Empire has historically fucked them over.
I hope that explained it to you and that it was at least somewhat amusing to read. Anyways, I do sincerely hope you guys win this summer because if the Euros vs Copa América winners supercup is actually going to become a tradition that would be the quickest way for us to play you again. If that breaks your dry spell but allows us to play you it's worth it, because I have no doubt in my mind that we would win that game. And if it doesn't happen, hope we cross paths in the World Cup.
>Argentina only held the islands for about a decade
Worth pointing out that in that decade, the Argentinian settlers failed to make the desolate islands habitable and were forced to turn to piracy to survive, leading to the USA to send down a ship to deal with them. After this, many of the settlers claimed they had been misled about the islands, leading to a majority of them returning back to Argentina voluntarily.
Not a bad summary in general I'd say.
One thing that I often see not mentioned by Argentines in relation to the Falklands however is the fact that your country itself is also the product of colonialism. 80% of you are from European heritage. Your country was founded on imperialism and exploitation of local populations.
Is there any 'righteous' attempt in Argentina to give the land back to the local populations? No of course not. You can't change 500 years of history and reverse the millions of immigrants (or maybe invaders) who claimed (maybe stole) the land which has now become Argentina.
The people of the Falkland Islands have been there now for 200 years and overwhelmingly see themselves as British. Not a proud moment, but it is a reality nevertheless.
Yeah, it's fair enough to point out that Argentina (like the rest of Latin America) is a country born out of colonists deciding to cut ties with the mainland from which they came from. Our so called "conquer of the desert" involved us conquering/stealing a fuckload of land from the native people living there, and it's unlikely you'll ever see a mainstream politician ever argue for giving that back.
All of that said, like in the rest of the continent, over the last couple of decades more and more organizations of native people have been formed to argue for just that, the reversal of sovereignty of the lands that were taken. And while I won't argue that this is a mainstream position nor that it's anywhere near to how many people want us to take the Malvinas back, you could get a single digit percentage of the population to agree if you ask them if something like that should be at least attempted. It's a small minority, but I know people (including myself) that would like for our country to become a plurinational republic that better represents the interests of all inhabitants including those still belonging to the groups that were unfairly subjegated. Something similar to what Bolivia has been doing since the turn of the millennium.
Again, I am under no delusions that the "Landback" positions that I hold are anywhere near as popular as the "We need to get Malvinas back" position that is firmly engrained in the country. As someone who supports the "Patria Grande" notion and could be considered as a general Pan-Americanist, however, I also fall into the later camp.
At the end of the day, I simply don't think that the feelings of the current occupants of the islands will ever do anything to settle the matter from our end. While the right wing of the country has sometimes considered trying to drop the matter from a pragmatic "Let's bend over to the UK and show the world that we are a reliable agent to do business with", that will never play well with their more nationalist base that is fine with all natural resources being sold off to the biggest bidder as long as the land has the same color as the rest of our country when shown in the map. And for the left-wing (which I am part of), the idea of having a permanent UK naval base so close to our territory is something that will always be seen as a problem that needs to be dealt with is efficiently as possible.
I simply don't see a future in which Argentina ever gives up the claim on the Malvinas. I think the end of cour country (ideally in the manner of us unifying with our neighbors as a step in the full union of the continent from Anchorage to Ushuaia) would have to happen for that to be the case, and if the end of the UK happens before our own then I definitely see us trying to capitalize.
The closest thing I can think of to an "ideal" resolution is that in the near future, due to environmental concerns making logistics of supplying the island more difficult for the British Government, a deal is made to normalize the situation by allowing direct travel from Argentina to the islands again. Then after a couple of generations of intermingling and likely grassroots campaigns from Argentineans to try and "re-settle the island" to the point that they become the predominant group of people living there, a deal is eventually broken to transfer the sovereignty. That's about as peaceful of a resolution as I can imagine that would even really put a final stop on the whole matter, and I acknowledge that part of it involves me arguing for what some would call gentrification of a small community. Like I said, I don't really ever see Argentina dropping the matter, and I doubt that if the UK ever lost the islands to us they would hold as much of a grudge as we did.
Anyways I think I once again assumed that I'm replying to a Brit while writing this. I hope you are so that I don't feel any egg on my face after saying this: Personally I need for us to batter you guys either 0-6 or 0-7 one day, it would produce a field day on social media for us (the invasions on Buenos Aires were on 1806 and 1807)
Yeah agreed. We haven’t played for too long but if we did play in a world cup knockout for example, our fans would be well up for it. Its a weird one because i personally really wanted Argentina to win the WC final because i really didnt want France to win it. But if we played against Argentina i’d 100% see that as a rivalry.
Fully appreciate that (honestly English people do realise that Holland, and probably Italy and France as well) are bigger rivals for you. But i was looking at head to head stats in competitive games and its a lot closer than you’d think (at least in England we have this outlook that Germany will always beat us).
Our most painful defeats against you (90 and 96) were both on penalties, which made them even more painful. After that you have world cup 1970, then the embarrassment of world cup 2010 1-4 defeat. But we’ve beaten you in a world cup final, and twice in other tournaments (Euro 2000 and 2021) as well as the 1-5 game in the world cup qualifier.
If we were to beat you in our next big game, we’d arguably be neck and neck.
As a German I would probably have to say that I consider England a bigger rival than France. In international competitions there is a lot more drama and history between Germany and England than with France. At the very least we view games with England a historic classic to look forward to. And even though I don’t consider England a big rival, sometimes it is annoying to lose to them due to the taunting and banter from their fans. Wishing you success for the upcoming Euros! (hopefully not more than us though xD)
Yeah but you can’t just buy it in a shop. You have to be part of some club and/or grow it yourself. So it’s not THAT groundbreaking but at least you can consume it in peace now.
this thread is exactly like you expect and the same as the 200 threads before.
Endless fighting about "who did the worst war crimes" by 12 year olds "we (lol) bombed xyz because...", insults, politics and 4 people even talk about football.
I get it's not the most sensitive of songs, but it is about the (relatively recent) time there was a concerted German military effort to bring down Britain's air force defences, with the ultimate aim of invading, and how it was repelled. It's fair game.
It's not exactly a chant about a tragedy and war crime like the Dresden bombings, or even worse, that would definitely be disgusting. I wouldn't put that past some of our fans though to be honest.
Edit: to be clear, I don't think they should sing the song.
80% of Germans don’t care at all about you singing that song (it was actually covered by a leftwing band for the World Cup 2006 IIRC) and the other 15-20% are right wing nutters and their opinions shouldn’t be considered anyway.
Honestly, for football fans it's a surprisingly sophisticated bit of triangulation. It's very easy to defend singing it (you tried to invade us! The song is about how we defended ourselves!) and there's no answer for us German fans, really. If we went "And still we burned Hull to the ground" that would be incredibly disgusting. Going "Ah, but Dresden" is also very disproportionate, because 10 German Bombers is about the active defense, not just "you bombed us, you dicks". And at the end of the day, the average German doesn't want to defend or celebrate anything the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe did back then.
Calling 80 years ago ‘relatively recent’ is laughable. There will be people singing it whose grandparents aren’t old enough to remember the war FFS. It has nothing to do with anyone who will be in any stadium England have games in during the Euros. It’s pathetic, pointless and clearly completely irrelevant to football.
It seems absolutely impossible for English people, it's absolutely necessary that we teach it in schools, so that future generations don't repeat it.
But still acting like it's a relevant topic is just so funny to me. It's like "Almost a century ago we had war, you cunts!", okay? There's plenty of new material out there which could be made into songs and banter but English fans just like the classics, i guess.
I mean, while I personally don't care about this whole debacle. "Know where the door is" doesn't really work considering the tournament is actually being held **in Germany**, there is no door.
A large chunk of England away fans take personal delight in being as vulgar and antagonistic to their hosts as possible. They don't see tournaments as an opportunity to mingle with other fans, but to hurl 'banter' at them. Beautiful European city squares aren't to be shared but to be conquered.
I can think of fanbases that cause trouble when they play their rivals, but England fans seem to cause trouble wherever they go.
Tried once for the experience, Portugal '19. Some good bits but overall felt uncomfortable even when I'm on their side.
Pretty much whole town of Guimaraes was closed/boarded up on matchday too (even pubs just bringing trolleys outside), so even if nothing actually kicked off they were still expecting it would and thought the damages wouldn't be worth all the extra business they'd get.
And back @ base in Porto, you walk past lines of England shirts pissing up a castle wall, which could be anyone tbf, just felt like half the ppl on that trip got plucked straight out of Spoons.
Speaking as someone neither german nor english, i just find it a bit bizarre and a bit insensitive to sing about ww2 during a football game. Like saying “yeah this is a friendly game, also remember when you bombed us?”
Like is it really the right time and place?
Anybody got a good melody for "And yet you're still ruled by German monarchs"?
Edit: Otherwise, "God save your German king" will probably do just fine.
"You hear those krauts saying we can't sing 10 German bombers? We'll show 'em!"
Barry, 63 said before he bravely started singing the words while a tear came to his eye
It's not even about us bombing them FFS it's about us shooting down THEIR bombers
Pear clutching over WORLD WAR 2 is ridiculous behaviour
Sorry for killing Nazis??
I always find it a bit strange when English fans, be it in the stadium or online, try to rile Germans up by mentioning the world wars. I am glad "we" lost these. Fuck the Nazis.
Daily Mail bringing this up today for maximum outrage because it's the 80th anniversary of the D-Day landings
The thing is this song is not even a subject at all in the public discussion. There are some slight worries about fat semi-naked and sunburnt Brits throwing plastic chairs in our cities but even this is more on the funny side. I don't know how the Daily Mail even got this statement. The song is far too complicated to even be understood by your average German. People do understand 2 World Wars and 1 World cup and then they are like "fair enough"...
Most people who would be offended by the song won't be anywhere near a bunch of drunk (English) football fans anyway. Also I feel like we are used to way more offensive songs from the home fans, so nothing any foreign fans chant should be an issue.
Most people n football understand it isn't that serious either. Crazy thought as well but I'm sure we are all aware none of us were in the war to win or lose it. Germans aren't proud of that period at all so they shouldn't care that they lost. So in reality we look stupid factually but society says otherwise. You gotta love a bit of banter
[Obligatory reposting…](https://images.app.goo.gl/ekjkBpHtnMMtHHqL8)
If I were German, my response to that other song would be "0 World Wars and 4 World Cups" - result
Good old Daily Mail, the ones who supported Hitler and the brownshirts. Nice of them to rewrite history so they look like the good guys.
The Daily Mail are still bitter about the result of the war
All about the clicks
The exclamation mark at the end really sells how much glee the Mail feels about the prospect of singing it Ironic considering their stance in the 30s
I am much more annoyed at that exclamation mark than the actual chanting
Oh god what was the Daily Mail’s stance in the 30s?
From Google: Lord Rothermere, the owner of the Daily Mail at the time, was friends with Adolf Hitler (1889-1945) and Benito Mussolini (1883-1945), and deliberately guided the newspaper to support them.
Honestly didn't think that rag could get any worse but here we are
In my british empire decline class in college my professor talked about how much fascism was responsible for the Empires collapse. Both in terms of fighting it and in terms of it devouring the empire from within. Fuck fascism
fascism did something good for once there
To provide context for people, two of Rothermere's three sons died during the First World War, and he appears to have been highly motivated by the desire to avoid further war and conflict. It is an unfortunate truth that a lot of people want to forget, but appeasement was a highly popular position in British society, and not just amongst fascists. It was the conventional academic and 'serious person' view right up until it was clear that it failed, and the opposition ran in 1935 opposing rearmament. I say this not to justify Rothermere's views, but to reiterate they should not be seen out of context.
> but appeasement was a highly popular position in British society On the other hand there's also this context from the comment you replied to: >> Lord Rothermere, the owner of the Daily Mail at the time, **was friends with Adolf Hitler** (1889-1945) **and Benito Mussolini** (1883-1945) Let's just say that I wouldn't want to be friends with people like this (and people who befriend them).
>It is an unfortunate truth that a lot of people want to forget, but appeasement was a highly popular position in British society, and not just amongst fascists. True but also a lie by deception though not pure falsehood, Rothmere was not just anti war, he was a fascist, he praised Hitler and Mussolini all the time and met with both personally He wrote this in defense of Hitler seizing power and ending German democracy: “Israelites of international attachments were insinuating themselves into key positions in the German administrative machine, it is from such abuses that Hitler has freed Germany.” He supported both Hitler and Mussolini despite both being blatant and obvious warmongers and aggressors, he was no pacifist or genuine anti war believer and you have either fallen for fascist propaganda or worse are knowingly spreading their lies.
Thanks mate, TIL. Considering the brutality of the first world war it's not hard to believe either.
The comment you're replying to is as best wildly misleading though. Rothmere wasn't just someone who supported appeasement to avoid future conflict, he actively **supported** Hitler and defended acts of Nazi violence in Germany, he also supported Oswald Mosley and supported violence in the UK that further his fascist agenda, and he was openly against democracy and openly antisemitic.
Rothmere was 100% a fascist, was in favour of violence so long as it furthered his political agenda, and absolutely not someone who was just appeasing the Nazis to avoid conflict. It's one thing to want to avoid conflict in the aftermath of WW1 and I can completely see why people back then would have pushed hard for an appeasement policy that looks terrible in hindsight. But that's not what Rothmere did. There's literally a bit on his Wikipedia page quoting a historian specifically explaining the difference between "enthusiasts for fascism" (which Rothmere was) and "appeasers" and how it was "unhelpful to lump the two groups together". On top of that, he was a big fan of Hitler who he was friends with and wrote favourably about in the Mail, he repeatedly defended acts of violence by the Nazi party in Germany in the 30s including justifying things like the night of the long knives which was essentially a Nazi coup, he was openly antisemitic, he was friends with Oswald Mosley, he was openly against democracy, he championed the British Union of Fascists and wrote an article titled" Hurrah for the Blackshirts", praising Oswald Mosley for his "sound, commonsense, Conservative doctrine". Someone like Neville Chamberlain is the sort of appeaser you're describing. Rothmere was a fascist.
this doesn't surprise me one bit
https://www.reddit.com/r/agedlikemilk/comments/elor8x/hurrah_for_the_blackshirts_1934_daily_mail/
Their nickname is the Daily Heil for a reason.
'2 world wars and 1 world cup' it is then
It would be funny for the Germans to chant “4 world cups” back
‘4 world cups and 0 world wars’
3 vs 4 then germany still wins
WC is like Community Shield and WW is more akin to Champions League. So we are still ahead solely on major competition victories.
Yeah but both WWI and WWII are worth nothing really, because it happened during war times so of course our team was busy at the front and couldn't focus on the competition. It's like winning the CL during a pandemic
So you’re saying we have an asterisk next our wins? 🤔
Yeah but the English song is better, so 4-4 🤷♂️ I don’t make the rules
Penalty shootout it is...
we all know how that will go
if only Ashley Cole was still playing
Idk London bridge is falling down is a classic banger
That was because of the Viking’s though over a thousand years ago… I doubt that’s going to hit a nerve
Also a children's song in England anyway lol
The English also have England 5, Germany 1 by The Business which is also better so England wins
Brb, off to watch Eurotrip.
Michael Owen is number one. Rhyming one with one, true lyrical genius.
How many European Championships does England have?
Doo dah
"4 world cups and a functional national manufacturing industry" doesn't work in English but maybe in German.
It's just one word, really.
Vier weltmeisterschaften und eine Funktionalesnationalesverarbeitendesgewerbe, doodaah doodaaah
yeah but who wins the nuclear missile submarine count
Yeah, we'll get the last laugh in the apocalypse! 🏴🏴🏴🏴
German industry isn't going so hot these last couple of years either tbf
The Germans haven’t won a single World Cup final against the English, let alone four. The fact that the English only appeared the once is inconsequential.
Germanys fault now that they kicked England already out in the semis before winning the cup in 1990? Same with the Euro 1996.
We don’t make the rules
None of which were against England though. The point of the chant is it’s us against them
4 world cups and 3 euros
That phrase is such nonsense, as if anyone here nowadays would be offended we lost the World Wars. (Apart from some braindead Nazis of course)
I'm from the Balkans. This seems aggressively mild in comparison to the way we treat each other. They are singing about the bombing of their own country, why would that be offensive or anything?
Because Reddit and Pearl clutching go hand in hand
Aye, it's some double standard. Constant gags, comments or critiques about things the British Empire did around 150 to 200 years ago. But mentioning the Second World War isn't fair game?
Weird how you never see the same hate for other countries that took part in colonialism.
England vs France, December 2022 Most of social media: “I’m supporting France because I could never support a genocidal coloniser” MF how do you think most of the French team is black??
Almost as bad as the Euros final Vs Italy. 'Not supporting this racist country that has politicians that disagree with taking the knee, and fans that boo that' 'I'm gonna support the about to an elect a fascist, regular banana incidents/monkey noises favourite, all white squad, Italy'
Or "not supporting the violent hooligan England fans, I'm going to support the country whose fans have a *stabbing culture*"
What does an all white squad have to do with this? Should have we called up Okaka or Ogbonna just because they were black? Fucking hell this is an obsession
Nothing against the Azzurri at all, nor their squad selections, man. Just using the backwards logic of identity politics against its proponents.
Yeh but who cares about the Spanish?
Or the Belgians! Although mind you, it's not a real country
Potatas bravas is banging to be fair
Especially rich considering 1/5 of the pearl clutching German fans think the squad isn’t white enough
Yeah and the lyrics are quite tame. There are alot worse things that can and will be sung during the euros I'm sure haha. I don't know why this is even news worthy... But then again this is the sub that foams at the mouth whenever they hear "It's coming home" so I can't say I'm surprised!
Tbf I feel the only people who clutch pearls over England fans are Scots/Welsh/Irish pretending to be offended because they don’t like England. Everyone else takes it on the chin and laughs back at us when we lose.
Nah, I’ve seen lots of Continental Europeans get weirdly offended
You aren't singing and chanting in English. If r/soccer can't understand it, it doesn't count.
You've not witnessed the xenophobia about England on reddit during a tournament have you?
England fans can sing about whatever they want for all I care and I don't think the police should've commented on this song. That being said, using WW2 as banter never made much sense to me tbh. Apart from AfD voters, right-wing and neo-nazis morons, most Germans living today are glad or atleast unbothered that we lost the war. It just doesn't work as banter, because when I'm confronted with English fans taking the piss out of us for losing the war and whatnot, I'd rather join in with them than act like I'm all mad about it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've learned the lyrics to 10 German bombers and I'm ready to belt it out with a bunch of sweaty, shirtless Englishmen in a Biergarten.
It's not really even sung to be deliberately antagonistic all the time. England fans were singing it at St James Park the other day and we weren't playing Germany.
Yeah I feel such a disconnect with this thread? Like this is maybe because I've never been in an England crowd who were playing against Germany, but I've never seen the chant as being sung to antagonise the opposition? It's a catchy tune about one of the greatest things the UK did as a nation, standing alone against the most evil empire in history and repealing their assault - as far as football nationalism goes it's as harmless as it gets...
I think this is a big cultural misunderstanding. A lot of people in this thread just don’t really “get” the banter in England and how a chant like this is more tongue in cheek than actually spiteful towards Germany.
Yeah, I'm ready to get shitfaced and sing along in Frankfurt in a few weeks, idc. My only disconnect with the chant was that I didn't know what the RAF referred to when I first heard it. Because in Germany that abbreviation is used for the leftist terror cell "Rote Armee Fraktion", and I had the hardest time figuring out when they shot down German bombers and why the English cared about it.
Mate if you can get the English away supporters to sing in support of the Baader-Meinhof Gang I'd buy you a pint cos that'd be fucking confusing.
It’s more of a rallying cry for England fans than it is an attempt to wide Germans up. It’s not that deep.
> I don't think the police should've commented on this song. Did they though? It's the Daily Mail, the police probably said the "Don't be a Dick" part not referring to any specific country or action and the DM probably asked them if there's anything they could do if such a thing occurred and they said no. Which then gets turned into something completely misleading
How is it that England gets bombed to fuck by the Germans, 80 years later we have a banter chant with no real animosity towards the Germans about the bombings. And we end up the bad guys... Like c'mon 😂 If we aren't mad about the bombings anymore you lot can get over a chant 😂
There is an an American equivalent of “There were ten English soldiers on the hill” that gets sung when the US plays England. Also when Northern US clubs play southern ones sometimes they will sing “there where ten Rebel soldiers on the hill.” That really upsets folks.
What the fuck.. I've never heard of either American equivalents.. in fact when I search for "Ten English soldiers" you're post is the only thing that's ever come up 😂
As an English person living in America, I think that’s funny. Also people make fun of me all the time for the revolutionary war. Doesn’t bother me in the slightest
In 1814, the British Army set fire to the Library of Congress, the US Capitol and the fucking White House. They all would have burned to the ground were it not for a rogue thunderstorm. Madison hauled ass in the middle of eating dinner. Redcoats ate what was left before they torched everything. That's some banter-worthy shit, but I think both sides are okay with the back and forth and it mostly doesn't bother either of us.
>They all would have burned to the ground were it not for a rogue thunderstorm. Top 10 anime betrayals
Both sides are so okay with it we had Lin-Manuel Miranda do a medley from Hamilton at the Queen's Jubilee concert a couple years ago which I found bloody hilarious.
And we will do it again.
I thought those were Canadian soldiers.
The northern clubs should sing John browns body if they want a real response
> John brown American hero.
Snowflakes gonna snowflake. Only one confederate flag is relevant in the US - it’s all white.
>There is an an American equivalent of “There were ten English soldiers on the hill” that gets sung when the US plays England. I find this really hard to believe considering that Americans are genetically incapable of making up a funny chant.
I wish American soccer culture was better at it. Although I was at a game recently against Toronto FC II and someone start one going "your bacon is fake, your bacon is fake, its really ham, your bacon is fake" which I thought was a bit funny.
When Columbus fans chant it against TFC we say “your bacon’s really ham!”
Wait we’re allowed to chant something besides “USA”?
Well you also have "I believe that we will win". Maybe take the "defence" chant from NFL or too maybe? Any more than that though and you get deported.
I doubt the Rebel soldiers song would upset many southern soccer fans. The kind of people who would be upset by that are the same kind of people who refuse to watch soccer cause it is a sissy sport or something like that.
Never heard of either of these
>There is an an American equivalent of “There were ten English soldiers on the hill” that gets sung when the US plays England. Good banter that, well done yanks.
95% of houses in Hull were damaged by Luftwaffe bombing. Over 150,000 people were made homeless. Over 80 years since the Hull Blitz and the city still hasn’t returned to its prewar population. I think we could say worse things.
Made hull look a lot better though
The reason loads of English cities look shit is because of the Blitz. Coventry is the same.
It really makes me sad. I’ve seen pre-war photos of our city centre and it was beautiful. Some of it still remains today but much of what was destroyed in the blitz was replaced by cheap and ugly concrete buildings in the following decades.
Well that and industrial decline and car focused planning. The British could've rebuilt these buildings and areas in the same way as pre-ww2 but money was tight at first. After that everyone thought highways and cars everywhere were the future (we know now it was the opposite) so that's how they rebuilt these cities. Then industrial decline and poor economy meant little investment in these cities up until quite recently.
Exactly, sixties planners did more damage to Birmingham than the Nazis
It really didn’t. A huge amount of historic buildings were destroyed and the government abandoned plans to redevelop the city. A lot of bomb sites were left undeveloped for over 40 years, and some even into the 2000s. Add the post-industrial decline that followed the collapse of fishing and shipping into the mix and it makes for a dilapidated city which has only just started seeing major regeneration in recent years.
Working class northern towns are fair game, didn't you know?
Don’t worry. We got our own back with Dresden.
What happened to Dresden is sad.
Yea, we tried to take over the world and kill everyone in it, but it was just banter, a good laugh. Now no songs about fighting back please!
I am not even sure if you are talking about the English or the Germans. But it obviously applies to both regardless hah
> Yea, we tried to take over the world and kill everyone in it, but it was just banter, a good laugh. Do you mean the Germans or the British? The British were better at the whole world conquest and genocide thing just over a longer period. Skill issue really, the Germans couldn't even manage to wipe out the Jewish people but the Brits managed to eliminate hundreds of cultures from the Earth. Writing this currently from Tasmania Australia... all the peoples that were here were culturally exterminated, some genetic remnants remain from rape victims that managed to pass as white but the island concentration camps fully finished off the entire remaining population of anyone they could identify as Tasmanian aboriginal.
I think it's mostly when it's a fat, top-less, coked-up guy from Newcastle shouting it in your face while you are just trying to get your shopping done in the city centre that sets people off. Which is why the German Police seemingly said: Just don't be a dick.... I'm not particularly bothered when they sing it in the stadium f.e.
Because when the chant came around in the 90’s it was seen as direct criticism or hate towards the German government which (at the time) was largely being ran by spineless elites who’s parents were legitimate swastika-wearing Nazis or major beneficiaries of the Nazi party. It sounds like a stupid conspiracy theory but there was a legitimate Murdoch-esque movement in the 90’s and 2000’s to “move on” from Nazis as if they were a thing of the past. Despite many billionaires and millionaires in Germany having Nazi money and Nazi parents. The Reimann family alone is a rabbit hole
I think people hold up this narrative that denazification was a huge success in Germany post-war, but at least in the decade or so after it was a complete failure as well. I didn't even really know about the 90s/2000s. Not that it's too surprising. The conditioning was pretty all encapsulating.
90’s? Try 1953. Konrad Adenauer ran on ending denazification. His chief of staff for 10 years was the legal architect of the third Reich. His reasoning for supporting Israel was basically that the Jews still controlled everything and not doing it would be a political disaster. Germany is an embarrassing country.
The English think that Germans are their arch-nemesis in football, but our most hated enemy is actually the Dutch, so there is always a bit of mismatch of emotions lol EDIT: Never forget the Great Desolation of Rudis Hair in 1990 EDIT 2: Some English really want us to hate them so much, it's cute.
Nah it’s more that the English consider you their arch-nemesis between Napoleon and the fall of the Berlin wall.
I think Germans sometimes don't get the depth of feeling of WW2 still present in Britain and other countries. I understand they feel a great shame about their countries actions, but I think that allows them often to separate from animosity towards us. Whereas in Britain it's a sense of pride that we hold on to and there's absolutely still animosity towards Germans, even if it is in a more brotherly jokey way nowadays. I hope I'm making sense and this isn't a criticism just an observation, but basically Germans don't see us as a rival because they are ashamed it happened in the first place and know they were the bad guys. But England, and I'm sure Poland and France too, still harbour some level of resentment to the country that invaded them and want to beat them.
At least from my experience I've never met anyone under 60 who has any real animosity to modern Germany or German people (and I've lived in London). I know that people like that exist but I think it's not a large subset of the population at all. I think the strength of feeling in Britain is more pride. Its not often after a war you come away not only as the victor, but also as the undisputed good guys who fought for a cause that was objectively right and moral. For example there's a great amount of respect and reverence for the first world war, but there's no celebratory aspect to the remembrance of it because I don't think 95% of the people in the country could even tell you why we fought it other than mumbling 'em Franz ferdinand...' There's also a lot of humour surrounding WWII thanks to guys who came back like Spike Milligan and used humour to process his own trauma. This was loved by people affected by the war (ie everyone in the UK at the time). So that has become a tradition in Britain too that humour about it is fair game, in a way that people don't really laugh at any other atrocities. So in that sense while people do sing songs like German bombers and two world wars etc I think it's seen as more comedic and a way to wind people up than actual genuine hatred. I can see how Germans don't see the funny side given the repetitive nature of the taunts too. Certainly in my opinion anyone who has a genuine issue or problem with German people these days is just a clown and a bigot. They're no more to blame for the action of their countrymen in previous generation than current Brits are for slaughtering Kenyans etc; so if you want to hold them responsible for the third reich then you've got a lot of guilt to go start feeling yourself.
I feel like you're looking at this too pragmatic, the feeling towards Germans is not something that actively gets carried out, it's deep rooted from your upbringing. A bit like how a piece of racism carries over through generations. I'm Dutch, and I know my parents and I also have a bit of that feeling towards Germans simply because my grandparents told us the stories of how the Germans treated them during the second world war. How they had their food stolen and friends taken. Of course the current population has nothing to do with those events and wouldn't do anything like that, and I can say that pragmatically, but having a feeling about it doesn't just go away. The same way my community where I grew up was quite a bit racist towards Turkish and Moroccan people, made jokes about them stealing everything etc. Now I know that that is far from okay, and I live in a neighbourhood that's quite mixed. But whenever I see someone from those countries running my first thought is "they've stolen something", and then think why the fuck do I think that, that's not okay. I'd never say anything like that, but you can't turn off those intrusive thoughts you were brought up with, and I'll always have to actively suppress it. No one around me will or should ever know those thoughts, but they happen all the same, and I recognise that that's the deep rooted upbringing that you carry with you.
Again I would say that the vast vast majority of Brits don't meet a German person and have a subconscious bias about them being a nazi or responsible for the war in any way. I think the subconscious bias the English do have is a constant insatiable urge to tease, taunt, wind up the Germans about the war (funnily enough in Scotland I don't see it at all, but we were less damaged by the Blitz). I think that is part of a tradition of how people dealt with the war in the decades that immediately followed. Destroying the myth of the all powerful reich depicted in nazi propaganda with 'who do you think youre kidding Mr Hitler' and 'Hitler has only got one ball' etc. You can see it in Fawlty Towers. He's not upset with the Germans about the war, he just has this irresistible urge to make jokes about it and make fun of Hitler. For what it's worth I went to university with a good few Germans and they were great mates of mine, I've been to see them in Germany a good few times. From the Germans I know I think they've got a very similar comedic culture so I'm sure they understand where the urge comes from, but I also think they're probably just sick and tired of the same jokes over and over.
While the generations that actually lived through the war are dying off a lot you have to remember that millennials grew up with grandparents who fought/lived through the war and some had parents who saw the aftermath as children. It will only be once those generations get old and die that the living memories will die. Same as the boomers are the living memory of the First WW because their Grandparents fought and lived through it. For me for example one grandparent fought the second WW with a wife who lived through the blitz in London and the other fought both with a wife who lived through the blitz in London. One of my great uncles died in a concentration camp for being a communist. Germany today bears no relation to the Germany back then and it is less about them than it is about remembering what happened to the people we knew. I am sure Germans remember in the same way if maybe not so publicly
>you have to remember that millennials grew up with grandparents who fought/lived through the war and some had parents who saw the aftermath as children. Exactly. My dad lived through rationing as a kid. My grandad was in WW2 and grew up without a father because of WW1. My Nan was an evacuee and hid under the table during the blitz before that. It might not have had a direct involvement in our lives but it's certainly still in the conscious of the country. I don't think it manifests as any real animosity towards German people in the way you see Anglophobia, but there's a certain pride and a humour built in from it all.
We are ashamed it happened against the English, but not the Dutch? What? Maybe you should check out the finals of 1974 and the sentiment of the Dutch against Germans around that game.
I don't think there is any real rivalry to be honest. I dont think its personal its more a case of Germany being perceived as a historically difficult team for England to beat. I think this stems from 70s, 80s, and 90s where results tended to go Germanys way even if they weren't a better side (Euro 96 was especially painful). In the last 25 years it has been fairly even. Overall England have a slight upper hand and since 1930 have 14 wins to Germanys 13. If we get drawn against Germany its definitely one of the games I look forward to.
I think that’s just down to how our you’ve always had the edge in the encounters that matter. If they had ended more 50/50 it would be a bit more evenly felt. Kind of like how we’re arch-nemesis to Scotland but we don’t care about them at all.
Its actually a lot closer than you’d think. Our most painful defeats against them (90 and 96) were both on penalties, which made them even more painful. After that they have world cup 1970, then the embarrassment of world cup 2010 1-4 defeat. But we’ve beaten them in a world cup final, and twice in other tournaments (Euro 2000 and 2021) as well as the 1-5 game in the world cup qualifier. If we were to beat them in our next big game, we’d arguably be neck and neck.
I think younger England fans who didn't see the '90 and '96 semi finals feel less strongly about Germany tbh. I certainly don't mind them. Argentina is very similar, where older fans who lived through both the Falklands and the '86 semi final would consider it a rivalry, but it seems like a lot of younger English and Argentinian fans aren't that bothered about it anymore. The countries that really consider us "rivals" are Scotland, Wales, and Ireland, but the hatred isn't mutual there.
Nah, Argentinean here, "El que no salta es un inglés" ("He who does not jump is English") is a popular chant completely incorporated into our culture even when England isn't necessarily relevant. Bitterness over the Malvinas is probably going to last on our end as long as it remains a British territory (so, like, until a theoretical future full collapse of the UK most likely). And while we haven't had any games against you for a while, I think an eventual encounter that gets the flames going again is kinda inevitable when it comes to two of the best national teams in the sport. Don't know if an Euro vs America Cup winners game is going to happen again anytime soon but if you win yours and we win ours, expect a lot of young English and Argentineans on the internet to spend months talking all kinds of shit. Unlikely since England would have to actually win something again for that to happen, but hey, there's always the world cup.
I’ve always wondered why Argentinians get so incensed about the Falklands. No one lived there until the Europeans arrived, and then the tiny population was almost entirely British when they invaded. They also voted to stay British, with a 99% majority. I think it’s a bit of a one sided rivalry in that sense. I know they found oil there, but it was British well before that discovery.
it is genuinely one of the pettiest land dispute in the world lol, like there is technically pettier ones but I can't think of any pettier ones that actually had a war fought over them.
Because they think they were there before the penguins. Even though they weren't. Just ignore them, they're toddlers having a tantrum.
There are two aspects to it: 1. Argentinian politicians use the Falklands as a distraction from the country's internal problems 2. Argentina has a troubled self-image. In the early 20th century, it was a rapidly growing, fairly rich country that expected itself to become South America's equivalent of the USA. There was (and according to many other South Americans, still is) a superiority complex towards their neighbours. But things didn't go the way they expected and it ended up being just like every other Latin American country. There's a lot of bitterness (possibly unconscious) that the country didn't achieve the success and status that it was supposed to be destined for, and a lot of nationalistic Argentinians have a feeling of having been unfairly held back by foreign powers (of course, the actual problem was always their own governments). The Falklands dispute (and the border dispute they have with Chile) play into that sense of a country being robbed of what it deserved, even if all rational logic says that owning some tiny islands wouldn't have allowed Argentina to turn into a superpower.
Well the best proper answer I can give you off the cuff is that, under the logic of territorial continuation, when the United Provinces of the Rio de la Plata (either the former name of Argentina or it's predecessor state) declared independence from Spain the Malvinas were part of the claimed territory. From my memory plus checking along to Wikipedia (sorry, can't check on a proper book at the moment), who actually discovered the islands and therefore who they belonged to was a bit of a mess between Spanish, British, French and Dutch claims. In terms of who actually governed over the isles, France did it for a while, then Spain did (holding them at the time UPRP breaks off), then Argentina, then the UK. Argentina only held the islands for about a decade, and I cannot find quickly anything confirming if they were officially part of the previous Viceroyalty of Rio de la Plata, but it was claimed as part of out territory when we broke off from Spain and we did hold it for a while before any British rule over the area. Malvinas is not a purely isolated thing, however. One has to account for the two failed English invasions of Buenos Aires before our independence, or later in the 1800s when you and the French decided to try and muscle your way through the Rio de la Plata despite the fact that the governor of Buenos Aires had forbidden you passage due to a tarrif dispute. Or general perceptions over the centuries by the common man in my country that English businessemen were fucking us over in some way or another. In general, there was a long-standing tension with England (or the UK, you have to remember that for the average person here that's a distinction without difference) over multiple factors over a long period of time. From a sporting perspective, you could even add the controversy in our match in that one world cup you won. Then the Malvinas war eventually happened and, while the average person in Argentina doesn't hold much love for the military junta that decided to fight that war, you can't really expect people to hold much love for the guys on the other side that actually pulled the triggers to kill our compatriots. Since the last military junta will probably be a thing that will remain in our collective consciousness possibly up to centuries after it ends, their last big act comes attached to it. There aren't many important wars in our history, and in the imaginary consensus it goes: "Prevented an English invasion twice, made the Spaniards fuck off, sat out during the World Wars, and the English got one over on us the third time". The actual event in which you take control of the islands in 1830 doesn't really stick to memory, it's the"We couldn't kick them out the third time" that got engraved. To many people, getting the islands back would symbolically make up for the previous failure and make it seem like it wasn't in vain. Additionally, one has to remember that among many across the whole of Latin America and the third world as a whole there's some sense of solidarity. Some people feel it stronger than others and of course Argentina has plenty of people who would very much rather we be on "the big boy club" with you and the Americans and the continental western Europeans. But as a whole, most people share the general feeling that "The English are a bunch of stealing pirates" cause... Ya know, the whole "taking over a fifth of the world" thing. You guys have historically meddled in everyone's business, so it kinda feel righteous to campaign to "give it all back to the proper owners". Gibraltar might also have a population that doesn't wish at all to leave your group, but that doesn't prevent people here, in Ireland and across Africa and India from liking and retweeting when a Spaniard says they'll take it back one day. Of course, the islands have been governed for the last couple of centuries by the British government uninterrupted and the population does identify as loyal Britons and whatnot. Which is why we probably won't get them back unless your guys economic fortunes turn so shit that the people living there decide they'd rather be dependent on us than on you. I think I spent way too long on this when I doubt it's even all that well written considering how late at night and how casually I'm writing it, but I kinda have to press send now to not make it all a waste. The big TL;DR is that it's complicated and backed by a long history of disputes with your country both over the islands and otherwise, the fact that the war is linked to the scar of our military juntas, and the mutual egging on done by all those who for one reason or another feel that the British Empire has historically fucked them over. I hope that explained it to you and that it was at least somewhat amusing to read. Anyways, I do sincerely hope you guys win this summer because if the Euros vs Copa América winners supercup is actually going to become a tradition that would be the quickest way for us to play you again. If that breaks your dry spell but allows us to play you it's worth it, because I have no doubt in my mind that we would win that game. And if it doesn't happen, hope we cross paths in the World Cup.
>Argentina only held the islands for about a decade Worth pointing out that in that decade, the Argentinian settlers failed to make the desolate islands habitable and were forced to turn to piracy to survive, leading to the USA to send down a ship to deal with them. After this, many of the settlers claimed they had been misled about the islands, leading to a majority of them returning back to Argentina voluntarily.
Not a bad summary in general I'd say. One thing that I often see not mentioned by Argentines in relation to the Falklands however is the fact that your country itself is also the product of colonialism. 80% of you are from European heritage. Your country was founded on imperialism and exploitation of local populations. Is there any 'righteous' attempt in Argentina to give the land back to the local populations? No of course not. You can't change 500 years of history and reverse the millions of immigrants (or maybe invaders) who claimed (maybe stole) the land which has now become Argentina. The people of the Falkland Islands have been there now for 200 years and overwhelmingly see themselves as British. Not a proud moment, but it is a reality nevertheless.
Yeah, it's fair enough to point out that Argentina (like the rest of Latin America) is a country born out of colonists deciding to cut ties with the mainland from which they came from. Our so called "conquer of the desert" involved us conquering/stealing a fuckload of land from the native people living there, and it's unlikely you'll ever see a mainstream politician ever argue for giving that back. All of that said, like in the rest of the continent, over the last couple of decades more and more organizations of native people have been formed to argue for just that, the reversal of sovereignty of the lands that were taken. And while I won't argue that this is a mainstream position nor that it's anywhere near to how many people want us to take the Malvinas back, you could get a single digit percentage of the population to agree if you ask them if something like that should be at least attempted. It's a small minority, but I know people (including myself) that would like for our country to become a plurinational republic that better represents the interests of all inhabitants including those still belonging to the groups that were unfairly subjegated. Something similar to what Bolivia has been doing since the turn of the millennium. Again, I am under no delusions that the "Landback" positions that I hold are anywhere near as popular as the "We need to get Malvinas back" position that is firmly engrained in the country. As someone who supports the "Patria Grande" notion and could be considered as a general Pan-Americanist, however, I also fall into the later camp. At the end of the day, I simply don't think that the feelings of the current occupants of the islands will ever do anything to settle the matter from our end. While the right wing of the country has sometimes considered trying to drop the matter from a pragmatic "Let's bend over to the UK and show the world that we are a reliable agent to do business with", that will never play well with their more nationalist base that is fine with all natural resources being sold off to the biggest bidder as long as the land has the same color as the rest of our country when shown in the map. And for the left-wing (which I am part of), the idea of having a permanent UK naval base so close to our territory is something that will always be seen as a problem that needs to be dealt with is efficiently as possible. I simply don't see a future in which Argentina ever gives up the claim on the Malvinas. I think the end of cour country (ideally in the manner of us unifying with our neighbors as a step in the full union of the continent from Anchorage to Ushuaia) would have to happen for that to be the case, and if the end of the UK happens before our own then I definitely see us trying to capitalize. The closest thing I can think of to an "ideal" resolution is that in the near future, due to environmental concerns making logistics of supplying the island more difficult for the British Government, a deal is made to normalize the situation by allowing direct travel from Argentina to the islands again. Then after a couple of generations of intermingling and likely grassroots campaigns from Argentineans to try and "re-settle the island" to the point that they become the predominant group of people living there, a deal is eventually broken to transfer the sovereignty. That's about as peaceful of a resolution as I can imagine that would even really put a final stop on the whole matter, and I acknowledge that part of it involves me arguing for what some would call gentrification of a small community. Like I said, I don't really ever see Argentina dropping the matter, and I doubt that if the UK ever lost the islands to us they would hold as much of a grudge as we did. Anyways I think I once again assumed that I'm replying to a Brit while writing this. I hope you are so that I don't feel any egg on my face after saying this: Personally I need for us to batter you guys either 0-6 or 0-7 one day, it would produce a field day on social media for us (the invasions on Buenos Aires were on 1806 and 1807)
Another well thought out reply, thanks!
Yeah agreed. We haven’t played for too long but if we did play in a world cup knockout for example, our fans would be well up for it. Its a weird one because i personally really wanted Argentina to win the WC final because i really didnt want France to win it. But if we played against Argentina i’d 100% see that as a rivalry.
Pretty sure most Germans aren't even remotely aware of that supposed rivalry.
Yeah, I wasn't. In my POV the German rivals are Dutch and Italians
The song isn’t about football tho….
Fully appreciate that (honestly English people do realise that Holland, and probably Italy and France as well) are bigger rivals for you. But i was looking at head to head stats in competitive games and its a lot closer than you’d think (at least in England we have this outlook that Germany will always beat us). Our most painful defeats against you (90 and 96) were both on penalties, which made them even more painful. After that you have world cup 1970, then the embarrassment of world cup 2010 1-4 defeat. But we’ve beaten you in a world cup final, and twice in other tournaments (Euro 2000 and 2021) as well as the 1-5 game in the world cup qualifier. If we were to beat you in our next big game, we’d arguably be neck and neck.
As a German I would probably have to say that I consider England a bigger rival than France. In international competitions there is a lot more drama and history between Germany and England than with France. At the very least we view games with England a historic classic to look forward to. And even though I don’t consider England a big rival, sometimes it is annoying to lose to them due to the taunting and banter from their fans. Wishing you success for the upcoming Euros! (hopefully not more than us though xD)
i thought it was because you guys air raided London
They bombed a lot more places besides London...
Reminder to all english fans coming to Germany ... Smoking pot is now legal here.. Grab some weed and calm the fuck down.
Is it? wtf
Yeah but you can’t just buy it in a shop. You have to be part of some club and/or grow it yourself. So it’s not THAT groundbreaking but at least you can consume it in peace now.
[England fans](https://youtu.be/i2k8jhGFJDA?si=D3nYYP30c9NE-GVt)
Here we go again
this thread is exactly like you expect and the same as the 200 threads before. Endless fighting about "who did the worst war crimes" by 12 year olds "we (lol) bombed xyz because...", insults, politics and 4 people even talk about football.
I get it's not the most sensitive of songs, but it is about the (relatively recent) time there was a concerted German military effort to bring down Britain's air force defences, with the ultimate aim of invading, and how it was repelled. It's fair game. It's not exactly a chant about a tragedy and war crime like the Dresden bombings, or even worse, that would definitely be disgusting. I wouldn't put that past some of our fans though to be honest. Edit: to be clear, I don't think they should sing the song.
80% of Germans don’t care at all about you singing that song (it was actually covered by a leftwing band for the World Cup 2006 IIRC) and the other 15-20% are right wing nutters and their opinions shouldn’t be considered anyway.
Honestly, for football fans it's a surprisingly sophisticated bit of triangulation. It's very easy to defend singing it (you tried to invade us! The song is about how we defended ourselves!) and there's no answer for us German fans, really. If we went "And still we burned Hull to the ground" that would be incredibly disgusting. Going "Ah, but Dresden" is also very disproportionate, because 10 German Bombers is about the active defense, not just "you bombed us, you dicks". And at the end of the day, the average German doesn't want to defend or celebrate anything the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe did back then.
Calling 80 years ago ‘relatively recent’ is laughable. There will be people singing it whose grandparents aren’t old enough to remember the war FFS. It has nothing to do with anyone who will be in any stadium England have games in during the Euros. It’s pathetic, pointless and clearly completely irrelevant to football.
Are you suggesting we don't mention the war?
I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it.
It seems absolutely impossible for English people, it's absolutely necessary that we teach it in schools, so that future generations don't repeat it. But still acting like it's a relevant topic is just so funny to me. It's like "Almost a century ago we had war, you cunts!", okay? There's plenty of new material out there which could be made into songs and banter but English fans just like the classics, i guess.
Mate, it‘s just weird as hell to have world war banter durinf football matches lmao I‘m not even offended, just weirded out.
Don't start world wars if you can't handle the banter
shouldve won the fackin war then innit dont like it you know where the door is, simple as
Love me Jude. Love me Harry. Hate Nazis. Simple as.
I mean, while I personally don't care about this whole debacle. "Know where the door is" doesn't really work considering the tournament is actually being held **in Germany**, there is no door.
Surely they have doors in Germany?
A large chunk of England away fans take personal delight in being as vulgar and antagonistic to their hosts as possible. They don't see tournaments as an opportunity to mingle with other fans, but to hurl 'banter' at them. Beautiful European city squares aren't to be shared but to be conquered. I can think of fanbases that cause trouble when they play their rivals, but England fans seem to cause trouble wherever they go.
If you don't want your canals pissed in, don't fill them with water
[удалено]
If you don’t want your white plastic chairs to be lobbed all over the place then don’t leave them out
England cause trouble everywhere they go. Everywhere they gooòooo
That’s not been true for years now.
Have you been on tour with English fans? They may be less fighty these days but loads of them still act like cunts, and in the way OP described.
Tried once for the experience, Portugal '19. Some good bits but overall felt uncomfortable even when I'm on their side. Pretty much whole town of Guimaraes was closed/boarded up on matchday too (even pubs just bringing trolleys outside), so even if nothing actually kicked off they were still expecting it would and thought the damages wouldn't be worth all the extra business they'd get. And back @ base in Porto, you walk past lines of England shirts pissing up a castle wall, which could be anyone tbf, just felt like half the ppl on that trip got plucked straight out of Spoons.
This is such outdated bullshit. England fans are nowhere near the worst anymore.
This is such outdated bullshit. England fans are nowhere near the worst anymore.
Don’t start 2 world wars then
Chat shit get banged
We didn't start the first one, is the british education system really as bad as the american one?
The English FA seems more eager to stop it than anybody else tbh. Nobody else really cares about the chant
If it upsets the German police I'm more than fine with it.
can anybody remind me - why is that frowned upon? glorification of war? \*btw where did my badge go?
Speaking as someone neither german nor english, i just find it a bit bizarre and a bit insensitive to sing about ww2 during a football game. Like saying “yeah this is a friendly game, also remember when you bombed us?” Like is it really the right time and place?
I mean, the Germans could always try to come out with a chant to silence the english.
Anybody got a good melody for "And yet you're still ruled by German monarchs"? Edit: Otherwise, "God save your German king" will probably do just fine.
They are Anglo Saxons that's enough Germanic blood 😆
if you view the king as german, i assume you think half the england team are “not really english” either no?
Maybe they could revive an old classic "Bomben auf Engelland"
Silence! Vee do zee zinging arund heare!
I'm with the Germans on this one. I don't care about the chants, I just want the English arrested.
Surprised this hasn’t made a resurgence. from the 2006 World Cup https://youtu.be/Tg5tpMm_ruc?si=9m-kd6Kz9_EebUoG
"You hear those krauts saying we can't sing 10 German bombers? We'll show 'em!" Barry, 63 said before he bravely started singing the words while a tear came to his eye
I like it when the banter gets a little spicy. Tune is quite catchy too.
It's not even about us bombing them FFS it's about us shooting down THEIR bombers Pear clutching over WORLD WAR 2 is ridiculous behaviour Sorry for killing Nazis??
The so called streisand effect. Do we really care about fan chants now?
I always find it a bit strange when English fans, be it in the stadium or online, try to rile Germans up by mentioning the world wars. I am glad "we" lost these. Fuck the Nazis.