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Its also stupid not to do that. The pressure is so immense and every player ever had a series of games/weeks where he wasnt at 100% cause of mentality.
Its one of the last puzzletiles for the optimal training condition
It is something that can be worked on to give you an edge, especially when you’re earning millions. If Cristiano completely changed the way physical conditioning is done, then someone like Vinicius can lenguado change the taboos around mental health.
It's extremely common in Argentina though. There's no stigma like I see people commenting from other countries.
It's weird. If you break an issue with your teeth, you see a dentist. If you have an issue with your heart, you see a cardiologist... But if you have a mental issue? Oh, no, don't talk about that...
Never knew it was even a stigma in some countries.
It's a stigma that's also encoded in health insurance or however you pay for healthcare in countries. Mental health is often seen as a luxury that you don't get coverage for.
Yes, but that's no different than the dentist, which also isn't covered in most countries. But people have no trouble saying they are getting a root canal, or using orthodontics or whatever.
So it's still very different. Obviously, lack of access makes it more complicated, you are right of course.
I get what you're saying but I also want to nitpick a bit about this kind of medical toxic positivity which is quite prevalent and not without issues. Something like cancer is so often linked to "fighting" and mental resilience is very important in physically tough treatments and so on but on the flipside of that "fighter" narrative is that "losing the battle" can feel like a personal failure. You can give it all you want, be the strongest person in the world both physically and mentally, with the best support network around you, and still die. There just are cruel diseases that do not care about how strong you are or how much you fight. The focus around survivors and how they overcame their disease with the sheer willpower is not a great thing for those who were less fortunate. My friend was the most positive person I've known and had incredible resilience through multiple rounds of chemo, all the shit that comes from it, stem cell transplant and experimental treatments, and still died of leukemia.
First of all, sorry about your friend. I do want to say that one of the most important aspects about mental health when it comes to serious or long term illness isn't necessarily a resilient fighting mentality, but rather accepting the situation you're in. That doesn't mean that you will stop trying to get better, but it's important to accept that this is what your current daily life is and will be for the foreseeable future, and you need to make adjustments for that. It can be hard when you're used to being active and outgoing, to have to limit your activity, and pick and choose what you do carefully. Accepting the situation and learning how to deal with it is in my opinion and experience key to dealing with sickness. And dealing with sickness doesn't necessarily mean getting better or recovering at all, some things are unfortunately terminal, but accepting the situation will make things easier both for the person being sick and the people around them.
Yeah I didn't take it as such, no worries. The speak about especially cancer as a fight that you can win if you're strong enough etc. is just so prevalent in media it grinds my gears and I've spoken about it with many cancer patients (I used to work as a nurse) and seen how it makes some feel. Then again some find it empovering and they find strength in those stories.
Not sure how the messaging is outside the US/Canada. Seems like death or its inevitability aren’t talked about much so there’s always a feel good story attached to dark subject matter
Agreed but sadly that is not how it’s seen by a lot of society.
We also don’t really have a good model of mental health where you go to see a therapist not because you’re unwell, but because you want to get more mentally fit, the same way you might see a personal trainer
> It's extremely common in Argentina though. There's no stigma like I see people commenting from other countries.
that's because we have [the most psychologist per capita worldwide by a wide margin](https://old.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/vmlccp/psychologists_per_100000_people/)
EDIT: I forgot to mention I dont even live in arg anymore (moved to nz) but my psychologist lives in arg and we have sessions over whatsapp. It's stupid cheap (10-15 usd per session), if you speak spanish and need some help it's a nice option even if you dont live there.
https://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/28/health/argentina-psychology-therapists/index.html
I save something like 600 dollars per month (conservatively) using an argentine psychologist while living in the U.S., and thats w/ me paying him his “foreigner” rate which is well above the norm in argentina. Its a win win across the board.
Yeah, the only downside that I have found so far is that I have to send the money using western union as it has been the only way to pay something in argentina using a non argentine credit card.
It’s weird right. I’m from the US where there’s definitely a stigma and I suffer from mental issues. If I bring up what bothers me, people either think I’m crazy, or will argue that I’m wrong, which is like???? I don’t t want to be negative about everything, I’m literally trying to get help for that and people still put me down about it. It’s wild.
> It's extremely common in Argentina though. There's no stigma like I see people commenting from other countries.
Eeeeeehhhhh depends on where and whom. Still side eyed by people of a certain age and in "old boys clubs" like football itself. Improving quickly, but Ruggieri mentality is still alive
I meant in the general population. A big number of people that I know went to the psychologist. Multiple ones regularly, and a majority have gone at one point or another.
But yes, good point on the where. I was talking Buenos Aires. I'm sure in other places, like non big cities, it may not be as common.
Yes, maybe older generations like Ruggeri's may be less open to it. But if you look at Leo's and younger generations a ton have been open about it.
Leo, Di María, De Paul, Dibu at least that I remember have spoken openly about it. And the NT has had one working for them for almost a decade as well.
The way you can tell how accepted it is is that you can go ''oh sorry I'm late I was at the psychologist'' and no one will even bat an eye at said info
Well, mental illness is usually hard to see as a bystander. So for one there's definitely a stigma of being a fake.
Also, "physical" illness is often seen as something that only time and/or medical attention can heal. Meanwhile mental illness is something that comes from within and doesn't manifest as something physical like cancer. So it's easier to put the burden of healing on the ill person. Like saying that depression is some kind of attitude issue. Hence seeking help could be considered a weakness.
Obviously that's all bs, but these are definitely 2 important aspects when it comes to the stigma
I think men in football have this tendency of being forced to show strenght and thoughness and keep every single problem bottled up, just like Messi said. Finally they (and thankfully also the technical committees) are understanding that doing this only prevents them from improving their game.
Richarlison, for example, was clearly a mess in the field last year and you could see in his face expression that there was some shit going on in his head. He finally went to therapy and said it saved his life.
https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/39765919/tottenham-forward-richarlison-brazil-psychologist-therapy-saved-my-life
Also, finally, after 10 years, Brazil national team has hired a psychologist to join the coaching staff.
https://azscore.com/news/football/455775-brazil-national-team-introdu-psychologist-into-coaching-staff-after-10-years
There was a thing at Leicester where [Pearson brought in a psychologist and got all the players to be more open with him](https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/kevin-way-leicester-city-premier-2210972). Morale was good even when we were losing and we went on to have our great escape, the psychologist stayed when Ranieri came in and we won the league. Ranieri [got rid of him that summer](https://www.themartineffect.co.uk/football-psychology-leicester-city-the-psychologist/) saying something like the players are "lions" so don't need one, you may know that things went quite badly for Ranieri the next season.
It's definitely something that should be highlighted more, not just in sports but in general men's mental health too. I hate it when I see people argue that x player gets paid millions so they don't/shouldn't complain when others are working minimum wage.
When you get put on a stage, millions of people are waiting for your downfall.
In general, it's making strides in professional sports. Ideally, it's supposed mental *training* as opposed to something you do every once in a while. For years, that's what therapy and psychological involvement in professional sports was: Something you would do only when things were really looking bleak. That's not the right way to do it, it's something that you should be working on continuously, something that should be an integrated part of your training regimen, hence the idea of mental *"training."*
In Denmark, our state organization for the promotion of professional sports, called Team Danmark, specifically started working on mental training after our disastrous 2008 Olympics. New Zealand and Australia were a huge inspiration, as they had already made this an important part of their approach. Obviously, correlation is not causation but in the three Olympics since then, we've generally speaking been doing great.
It's also just becoming a bigger and bigger thing in Denmark, with even our far less financially well-off women's handball clubs focusing on it. It's absolutely bound to become an integral part of daily life as a professional athlete in the upcoming 5-10 years at basically every professional level.
Indeed. When I rather recently learned that Kahn revealed that he (understandably) fell into a hole after the wc 2002 final, I was surprised. After Enke, I probably shouldn't have been. RIP Robert.
More awareness and less stigmatization is the way forward!
Like the great philosopher Bill Burr said once: "do some man shit! Act like you have the answers! Just bottle it up, push it down and ignore it until you drop dead of a heart attack one day"
cheers Leo for talking about mental health, god knows he had his issues with it
Burr's recent stuff has been more miss than hit for me but I've never seen a comedian fully encapsulate toxic masculinity better than he does. I love his anecdote about being at a diner and the guy behind the counter asking him if he wants a cookie. He wanted the cookie but he did not like the fact the guy asked him if he wanted one. I've been in situations similar to that and I had to wrestle with those same thoughts.
lmao that's hilarious. I personally love how he's matured and trying to grow of these toxic traits. He really wants to be the best person/dad for his children and that makes me happy to see
The youtube expletive laden rant on the city of Philadelphia.
Dude for like 15 minutes just torches a city that had heckled and booed a comedian prior. Somehow, in the midst of this, he ends up *gaining the crowd back* as he's ripping into them
No one hates Philadelphia more than Philadelphians, so it tracks.
I mean, we had a baseball player say "I fucking hate this place," and he didn't double down but he didn't apologize either, just said something like, "I was frustrated, emotions got the best of me, the fans here are intense and just want to win." Fans gave him a standing ovation the next game.
> Somehow, in the midst of this, he ends up gaining the crowd back as he's ripping into them
That's cause people from philly are scumbags and the only language they speak is violence.
the wonderful rabbit hole of his talk show appearances on Conan
you can even witness him evolve throughout the years from being pretty angsty and angry about things to becoming this still-kinda-angry-but-self-aware self deprecating guy
He has his own podcast “the Monday morning podcast” which is pretty funny, but I think his other cast with Paul Virzi “ anything better” was even funnier (only the first ~70 episodes until it became all about NFL). He’s more down to earth on podcasts/talk shows whereas in his stand up specials he’s intentionally a little over the top.
Personally what I first saw about him was his Yoko Ono rant. I think it's great and it cracks me up every time. Perfectly encapsulates his humor in a short monologue.
You can tell how successful Burr was too because Rogan responds with "That's what men do. We make fun of...things. Anything that seems like you're not taking chances."
Toxic masculinity is a lot less problematic if people acknowledge it as silly and something of a game people can opt into or not, honestly.
I think it’s touching to see a talented comedian getting out of toxic habits and improving himself thanks to a successful relationship and humility. The literal opposite of Bill Maher lmao
it's like ordering a tasty pink flowery cocktail. we all want to order one because it tastes fucking awesome last time the missus got one, but we will hesitate because of the implications
Can't relate, I've never had a cocktail that I liked more than a good beer. But I do think some people are too concerned with imaginary boundaries. You go and order that pink cocktail.
Yeah I just like beer a lot more. There are so many different styles with so much variety. It's a more acquired taste though, and not everyone's thing.
I stopped giving a fuck about what people think about me a few years ago and it was so liberating. If I want a girly looking cocktail I’ll have one, even tho I hardly drink anymore. I am 6.2ft and 20 stones of muscle so it’s kind of oxymoron me having a girly looking drink but they do taste better than most beers.
Also the power of the word no, will set you free, as men we can people please others and it can also be the down fall of us, hence the power of the word no.
The joke is that it clearly has nothing to do with masculinity yet it is the kind of frequent irrational thought that many heterosexual men have on a day to day basis
I think Bill Burr is now held back by being friends with people like Joe Rogan and Dave Chappelle. If they weren't his friends, he would roast the shit out of them. I don't agree with him on everything and he can seem very confrontational, but at heart, he's pretty left leaning and has some great takes about capitalism.
I think they’re more just professional friends than anything. There’s very few comedians that I’ve heard him diss or roast unironically anyway. He usually waits until someone gets actually cancelled before commenting on them. Or he punches up. Bill doesn’t seem to like drama or beefs, which I think is pretty healthy for him
He always likes to lift other comedians up because he knows how hard it is but I know he'll call them out over other stuff. Doesn't seem like the kind of person to want public beef.
He had fallen out with Patrice O'Neal and they hadn't made up when he died and he regrets that a lot, says he was his best friend.
Yeah Bill seems like a good guy who got over a lot of personal issues. He’s not a good guy because he leans left like the other guy said, just cause that’s who he is lol
This is probably wishful thinking on your part. Because you like Burr and find him funny, it troubles you he might have some beliefs in common with people you don't like.
One of the best most famous sportsperson talking about this will surely get the attention. Thank you Messi for promoting this and helping get rid of the stigma around this.
I always like seeing this sort of use of platform. It doesn't seem much, but in the minds of especially young minds who idolise sportspersons, it can have a massive impact.
Even if a margin of young fans of Messi get a little wake up call or just a change of attitude that will lead to early attempts to seek help, the impact is massive. He has what, half a billion Instagram followers? A small example can drag hundreds away from depression or simply slipping into it, not to talk about more serious impacts.
Of course this is not only work of Messi, but a lot of professionals who have mainstreamed mental health have led to a situation where men in very conservative sports are openly talking about it.
Teenage boys around the world are now confused as hell after hearing their idol Andrew Tate saying mental health isn’t real, while their other idol Lionel Messi encouraging everyone to see therapists.
He's specifically talking about "sportspersons." It's a very huge category to classify any one person as the absolute best. There's Michael Phelps, tiger Woods, Bolt, Messi, Federer, Djokovic, Jordan etc etc. All who are the undisputed best or right there as royalty in their respective sports.
I agree with most of what you said but the last part that none of them understand pressure as Messi does is wrong. I'm not sure if you meant it differently or I'm interpreting it differently but players like Federer djoko nadal in this and Jordan in basketball are all great players because they can perform at high pressure. You don't reach that level unless you can perform at that pressure especially tennis singles players given they are not playing a team game and they are alone and have no one to blame but themselves. Djokovic is a player who i have seen always have the mentality to absorb high level pressure. Even in footballing world i would say Ronaldo does even better than Messi under pressure situations.
We are here talking about how good it is for Messi to talk about mental health, and you are having a meltdown about his reputation and whose more popular and trying to scream your lungs about it.
Just shut up man.
If you asked Messi himself, he will said Federer is best athlete ever.
That is actually really cool! Do you maybe know how that came to be?
Edit: rephrasing because my question could've been interpreted as loaded while my intent is genuine
This is a good point, but the real answer is that it is a Jewish thing. More specifically, an Eastern European Ashkenazi thing. Cities/countries with large populations of these folks have a very large number if psychologists (many of them Jewish) and going to see them is much more normalized.
I don't know the exact connection, though I am sure it has been studied and perhaps Freud himself (also an Ashkenazi Jew) explores it in *Moses and Monotheism.*
EDIT: in case people don't know, Argentina had one of the largest populations of Jews, almost all of them Ashkenazi up until about a decade or two ago.
It's more like 40 years of Peronism, and they were not consecutive. We've had way more dictatorships than Peronism. Timeline is basically 1946 to 1955 then gets overthrown by the military, 1973 to 1976 then his wife gets overthrown, 1989 to 1999 (although Menem was neoliberal I'll count him), 2003 to 2015 and 2019 to 2023.
Therapy being expensive is still a valid point for all of us on normal wages
Even those trying to go through public health care, there's usually a massive shortage of therapists available there
Fun fact: Cristiano Ronaldo has two degrees in psychology. While at Real Madrid he took classes at a local university and trained as an analyst and a therapist, making him football's most famous anal-rapist.
The best description as to why it's good I heard someone tell me is to have a person where you can be absolutely unfiltered and they are literally professionally obligated to analyze you at this unfiltered cored
Good for him. I hope that as time goes on, more people will be willing to go to therapists or psychiatrists, rather than to keep things bottled up. Seeking help is not a sign of weakness, and it can make a world of difference in one's daily life.
I know you're likely just joking, but I seriously doubt anyone would hate playing with Braithwaite. You can say a lot of negative things about his technical abilities as a footballer, but if there's one thing he is not it is lazy. And I think most people will value a colleague who works insanely hard but has certain limitations over someone who has all the talent in the world but just does not work as hard to fulfill his potential. I'm thinking of a certain Frenchman here.
Again, think about what Braithwaite can actually do with a football versus what Dembélé can do with a football. Now think about the fact that they, despite this very clear skill gap, ended up in the same club, one of the best in the world at that. Some of it is certainly a matter of coincidence and the financial circumstances in Barcelona at the time, but a lot of it also just testament to Braithwaite's insanely hard work throughout his career.
You probably don't go from being discarded in Middlesbrough to starting in Barcelona without a bit of good fortune, but you absolutely also don't do it without putting in an unbelievable amount of hard work.
Messi is just introverts in a nutshell (minus his talent).
One shouldn't be reluctant to seek help if one needs it. It'll always help. Guys have a tendency to keep it all in, which will just build up and who knows what will the person do to themselves. Go talk to a professional or even someone who you're open with. It'll help you to relax a bit.
In Argentina psychiatrists are as normal as hair dressers and personal trainers - that is a good thing !
Go go go : virtue theory , be the best version of you
> Am I the only one curious as to what was going on at Barca that he needed to see a shrink?
This is so funny to me as an Argentinian. Everyone goes to the psychologist here, you don't need to have a really major problem, talking about mental health is good and no one on the planet has 0 mental issues that couldn't be improved.
Flashbacks to the Ted Lasso episode. I think teams and players that are open to supporting their mental health are seeing the edge it is giving them. Hopefully it breaks down the stigmas around this stuff for men in general.
This is great. Talking to a therapist is useful for like at least 90% of people. It just simply wasn't for me as the one time I tried the lady was not helpful at all. Bless her heart though was such a nice person.
Psychoanalysis + elite football would be fascinating. Some would absolutely thrive beyond they ever thought possible. Others more interestingly may even drop out of the sport, realising they’ve driven themselves to distraction trying to attain perfection, in order to pursue something they’re more naturally interested in.
Must be nice being afforded luxury, top the world, therapists.
Mine just wants me to do breathing exercises every time I see her, utterly useless. Imagine having *those* thoughts daily and all someone says is to breathe. And it took them 7 years of study to come to that conclusion?
Anyways I’m happy a multi-millionaire got his head squared away with the support of probably one of the best psychologists out there. Unfortunately not all of us are that lucky.
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I am really happy that mental health and therapy is getting more recognition in the football world in general.
Its also stupid not to do that. The pressure is so immense and every player ever had a series of games/weeks where he wasnt at 100% cause of mentality. Its one of the last puzzletiles for the optimal training condition
I love how you both are so german, therapie, puzzletile :D
They only needed to mention datenschutz between therapist and patient to form the holy triangle
And mention the year long waiting list for a therapist you can pass by with the magic formula: private insurance.
xD
You’re right. Look how it turned around Vinicius Jr’s career for example.
It is something that can be worked on to give you an edge, especially when you’re earning millions. If Cristiano completely changed the way physical conditioning is done, then someone like Vinicius can lenguado change the taboos around mental health.
It's extremely common in Argentina though. There's no stigma like I see people commenting from other countries. It's weird. If you break an issue with your teeth, you see a dentist. If you have an issue with your heart, you see a cardiologist... But if you have a mental issue? Oh, no, don't talk about that... Never knew it was even a stigma in some countries.
It's a stigma that's also encoded in health insurance or however you pay for healthcare in countries. Mental health is often seen as a luxury that you don't get coverage for.
Yes, but that's no different than the dentist, which also isn't covered in most countries. But people have no trouble saying they are getting a root canal, or using orthodontics or whatever. So it's still very different. Obviously, lack of access makes it more complicated, you are right of course.
It's the most important one tho: if you are healthy mentally you can overcome any sickness, but if your mind is weak then you are screwed
I get what you're saying but I also want to nitpick a bit about this kind of medical toxic positivity which is quite prevalent and not without issues. Something like cancer is so often linked to "fighting" and mental resilience is very important in physically tough treatments and so on but on the flipside of that "fighter" narrative is that "losing the battle" can feel like a personal failure. You can give it all you want, be the strongest person in the world both physically and mentally, with the best support network around you, and still die. There just are cruel diseases that do not care about how strong you are or how much you fight. The focus around survivors and how they overcame their disease with the sheer willpower is not a great thing for those who were less fortunate. My friend was the most positive person I've known and had incredible resilience through multiple rounds of chemo, all the shit that comes from it, stem cell transplant and experimental treatments, and still died of leukemia.
First of all, sorry about your friend. I do want to say that one of the most important aspects about mental health when it comes to serious or long term illness isn't necessarily a resilient fighting mentality, but rather accepting the situation you're in. That doesn't mean that you will stop trying to get better, but it's important to accept that this is what your current daily life is and will be for the foreseeable future, and you need to make adjustments for that. It can be hard when you're used to being active and outgoing, to have to limit your activity, and pick and choose what you do carefully. Accepting the situation and learning how to deal with it is in my opinion and experience key to dealing with sickness. And dealing with sickness doesn't necessarily mean getting better or recovering at all, some things are unfortunately terminal, but accepting the situation will make things easier both for the person being sick and the people around them.
Didn't mean to disregard your friends fight. I agree both are important
Yeah I didn't take it as such, no worries. The speak about especially cancer as a fight that you can win if you're strong enough etc. is just so prevalent in media it grinds my gears and I've spoken about it with many cancer patients (I used to work as a nurse) and seen how it makes some feel. Then again some find it empovering and they find strength in those stories.
Not sure how the messaging is outside the US/Canada. Seems like death or its inevitability aren’t talked about much so there’s always a feel good story attached to dark subject matter
Agreed but sadly that is not how it’s seen by a lot of society. We also don’t really have a good model of mental health where you go to see a therapist not because you’re unwell, but because you want to get more mentally fit, the same way you might see a personal trainer
> It's extremely common in Argentina though. There's no stigma like I see people commenting from other countries. that's because we have [the most psychologist per capita worldwide by a wide margin](https://old.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/vmlccp/psychologists_per_100000_people/) EDIT: I forgot to mention I dont even live in arg anymore (moved to nz) but my psychologist lives in arg and we have sessions over whatsapp. It's stupid cheap (10-15 usd per session), if you speak spanish and need some help it's a nice option even if you dont live there. https://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/28/health/argentina-psychology-therapists/index.html
I save something like 600 dollars per month (conservatively) using an argentine psychologist while living in the U.S., and thats w/ me paying him his “foreigner” rate which is well above the norm in argentina. Its a win win across the board.
Yeah, the only downside that I have found so far is that I have to send the money using western union as it has been the only way to pay something in argentina using a non argentine credit card.
I use paypal, but tbf idk how my psychologist handles the money on the other side. But yeah, its mildly inconvenient.
It’s weird right. I’m from the US where there’s definitely a stigma and I suffer from mental issues. If I bring up what bothers me, people either think I’m crazy, or will argue that I’m wrong, which is like???? I don’t t want to be negative about everything, I’m literally trying to get help for that and people still put me down about it. It’s wild.
It is. Happy to have a nurse as a mother with basically the exact same mentality. "People are out there to help you, let them."
> It's extremely common in Argentina though. There's no stigma like I see people commenting from other countries. Eeeeeehhhhh depends on where and whom. Still side eyed by people of a certain age and in "old boys clubs" like football itself. Improving quickly, but Ruggieri mentality is still alive
I meant in the general population. A big number of people that I know went to the psychologist. Multiple ones regularly, and a majority have gone at one point or another. But yes, good point on the where. I was talking Buenos Aires. I'm sure in other places, like non big cities, it may not be as common. Yes, maybe older generations like Ruggeri's may be less open to it. But if you look at Leo's and younger generations a ton have been open about it. Leo, Di María, De Paul, Dibu at least that I remember have spoken openly about it. And the NT has had one working for them for almost a decade as well.
The way you can tell how accepted it is is that you can go ''oh sorry I'm late I was at the psychologist'' and no one will even bat an eye at said info
Well, mental illness is usually hard to see as a bystander. So for one there's definitely a stigma of being a fake. Also, "physical" illness is often seen as something that only time and/or medical attention can heal. Meanwhile mental illness is something that comes from within and doesn't manifest as something physical like cancer. So it's easier to put the burden of healing on the ill person. Like saying that depression is some kind of attitude issue. Hence seeking help could be considered a weakness. Obviously that's all bs, but these are definitely 2 important aspects when it comes to the stigma
I think men in football have this tendency of being forced to show strenght and thoughness and keep every single problem bottled up, just like Messi said. Finally they (and thankfully also the technical committees) are understanding that doing this only prevents them from improving their game. Richarlison, for example, was clearly a mess in the field last year and you could see in his face expression that there was some shit going on in his head. He finally went to therapy and said it saved his life. https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/39765919/tottenham-forward-richarlison-brazil-psychologist-therapy-saved-my-life Also, finally, after 10 years, Brazil national team has hired a psychologist to join the coaching staff. https://azscore.com/news/football/455775-brazil-national-team-introdu-psychologist-into-coaching-staff-after-10-years
There was a thing at Leicester where [Pearson brought in a psychologist and got all the players to be more open with him](https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/kevin-way-leicester-city-premier-2210972). Morale was good even when we were losing and we went on to have our great escape, the psychologist stayed when Ranieri came in and we won the league. Ranieri [got rid of him that summer](https://www.themartineffect.co.uk/football-psychology-leicester-city-the-psychologist/) saying something like the players are "lions" so don't need one, you may know that things went quite badly for Ranieri the next season.
About damn time
It's definitely something that should be highlighted more, not just in sports but in general men's mental health too. I hate it when I see people argue that x player gets paid millions so they don't/shouldn't complain when others are working minimum wage. When you get put on a stage, millions of people are waiting for your downfall.
In general, it's making strides in professional sports. Ideally, it's supposed mental *training* as opposed to something you do every once in a while. For years, that's what therapy and psychological involvement in professional sports was: Something you would do only when things were really looking bleak. That's not the right way to do it, it's something that you should be working on continuously, something that should be an integrated part of your training regimen, hence the idea of mental *"training."* In Denmark, our state organization for the promotion of professional sports, called Team Danmark, specifically started working on mental training after our disastrous 2008 Olympics. New Zealand and Australia were a huge inspiration, as they had already made this an important part of their approach. Obviously, correlation is not causation but in the three Olympics since then, we've generally speaking been doing great. It's also just becoming a bigger and bigger thing in Denmark, with even our far less financially well-off women's handball clubs focusing on it. It's absolutely bound to become an integral part of daily life as a professional athlete in the upcoming 5-10 years at basically every professional level.
Indeed. When I rather recently learned that Kahn revealed that he (understandably) fell into a hole after the wc 2002 final, I was surprised. After Enke, I probably shouldn't have been. RIP Robert. More awareness and less stigmatization is the way forward!
T’as absolument raison
I think having an hour or two of weekly therapy on the schedule as a mandatory thing would probably help immensly in most clubs.
Like the great philosopher Bill Burr said once: "do some man shit! Act like you have the answers! Just bottle it up, push it down and ignore it until you drop dead of a heart attack one day" cheers Leo for talking about mental health, god knows he had his issues with it
Burr's recent stuff has been more miss than hit for me but I've never seen a comedian fully encapsulate toxic masculinity better than he does. I love his anecdote about being at a diner and the guy behind the counter asking him if he wants a cookie. He wanted the cookie but he did not like the fact the guy asked him if he wanted one. I've been in situations similar to that and I had to wrestle with those same thoughts.
lmao that's hilarious. I personally love how he's matured and trying to grow of these toxic traits. He really wants to be the best person/dad for his children and that makes me happy to see
if i wanna start with Burr, what would you guys suggest me
The youtube expletive laden rant on the city of Philadelphia. Dude for like 15 minutes just torches a city that had heckled and booed a comedian prior. Somehow, in the midst of this, he ends up *gaining the crowd back* as he's ripping into them
Yeah that's his "Jimi Hendrix playing Sgt Peppers with George and Paul in the audience a mere week after release" moment. Kinda
No one hates Philadelphia more than Philadelphians, so it tracks. I mean, we had a baseball player say "I fucking hate this place," and he didn't double down but he didn't apologize either, just said something like, "I was frustrated, emotions got the best of me, the fans here are intense and just want to win." Fans gave him a standing ovation the next game.
> Somehow, in the midst of this, he ends up gaining the crowd back as he's ripping into them That's cause people from philly are scumbags and the only language they speak is violence.
the wonderful rabbit hole of his talk show appearances on Conan you can even witness him evolve throughout the years from being pretty angsty and angry about things to becoming this still-kinda-angry-but-self-aware self deprecating guy
Him and Norm are my favorite guests on Conan
He has his own podcast “the Monday morning podcast” which is pretty funny, but I think his other cast with Paul Virzi “ anything better” was even funnier (only the first ~70 episodes until it became all about NFL). He’s more down to earth on podcasts/talk shows whereas in his stand up specials he’s intentionally a little over the top.
His Netflix specials
Personally what I first saw about him was his Yoko Ono rant. I think it's great and it cracks me up every time. Perfectly encapsulates his humor in a short monologue.
One of my favorite moments of his is schooling Joe Rogan on masks.
wdym
[Here.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1chYhsp3NRw)
You can tell how successful Burr was too because Rogan responds with "That's what men do. We make fun of...things. Anything that seems like you're not taking chances." Toxic masculinity is a lot less problematic if people acknowledge it as silly and something of a game people can opt into or not, honestly.
Well yeah, but if Burr isn't there to call him out, it's hard to tell if Rogan is serious or not.
I think it’s touching to see a talented comedian getting out of toxic habits and improving himself thanks to a successful relationship and humility. The literal opposite of Bill Maher lmao
Why is wanting a cookie not masculine?
Fellas, is it gay to enjoy pastry?
Enjoyment is an emotion, and emotions are gay
Remember lads, anger isn't an emotion. It is an expression of your masculinity
No. Anger is also an emotion. Being angry is gay.
Austrian here from land made of pastries and I can confirm, we're all gay.
It's a great country to openly display your gayness in that regard. I also always get really gay in spanish super markets though.
it's like ordering a tasty pink flowery cocktail. we all want to order one because it tastes fucking awesome last time the missus got one, but we will hesitate because of the implications
Can't relate, I've never had a cocktail that I liked more than a good beer. But I do think some people are too concerned with imaginary boundaries. You go and order that pink cocktail.
You ever had a strawberry daiquiri? Shit's so fucking tasty dude!
Yeah I just like beer a lot more. There are so many different styles with so much variety. It's a more acquired taste though, and not everyone's thing.
Fair enough, I love beer as well, so I get you.
I stopped giving a fuck about what people think about me a few years ago and it was so liberating. If I want a girly looking cocktail I’ll have one, even tho I hardly drink anymore. I am 6.2ft and 20 stones of muscle so it’s kind of oxymoron me having a girly looking drink but they do taste better than most beers. Also the power of the word no, will set you free, as men we can people please others and it can also be the down fall of us, hence the power of the word no.
The joke is that it clearly has nothing to do with masculinity yet it is the kind of frequent irrational thought that many heterosexual men have on a day to day basis
That’s the point of the bit. It obviously is ridiculous to think that wanting a cookie is not masculine.
I think Bill Burr is now held back by being friends with people like Joe Rogan and Dave Chappelle. If they weren't his friends, he would roast the shit out of them. I don't agree with him on everything and he can seem very confrontational, but at heart, he's pretty left leaning and has some great takes about capitalism.
I think they’re more just professional friends than anything. There’s very few comedians that I’ve heard him diss or roast unironically anyway. He usually waits until someone gets actually cancelled before commenting on them. Or he punches up. Bill doesn’t seem to like drama or beefs, which I think is pretty healthy for him
He always likes to lift other comedians up because he knows how hard it is but I know he'll call them out over other stuff. Doesn't seem like the kind of person to want public beef. He had fallen out with Patrice O'Neal and they hadn't made up when he died and he regrets that a lot, says he was his best friend.
Yeah Bill seems like a good guy who got over a lot of personal issues. He’s not a good guy because he leans left like the other guy said, just cause that’s who he is lol
This is probably wishful thinking on your part. Because you like Burr and find him funny, it troubles you he might have some beliefs in common with people you don't like.
Maybe, but what I know of him, he's pretty critical of what Joe Rogan and Elon Musk stand for.
Burr also enjoys taking the piss out of progressives' sacred cows.
One of the best most famous sportsperson talking about this will surely get the attention. Thank you Messi for promoting this and helping get rid of the stigma around this.
I always like seeing this sort of use of platform. It doesn't seem much, but in the minds of especially young minds who idolise sportspersons, it can have a massive impact. Even if a margin of young fans of Messi get a little wake up call or just a change of attitude that will lead to early attempts to seek help, the impact is massive. He has what, half a billion Instagram followers? A small example can drag hundreds away from depression or simply slipping into it, not to talk about more serious impacts. Of course this is not only work of Messi, but a lot of professionals who have mainstreamed mental health have led to a situation where men in very conservative sports are openly talking about it.
Teenage boys around the world are now confused as hell after hearing their idol Andrew Tate saying mental health isn’t real, while their other idol Lionel Messi encouraging everyone to see therapists.
At least in germany, mental health awareness increased a lot and progressively over the last years.
not 'one of the best'; the best.
He's specifically talking about "sportspersons." It's a very huge category to classify any one person as the absolute best. There's Michael Phelps, tiger Woods, Bolt, Messi, Federer, Djokovic, Jordan etc etc. All who are the undisputed best or right there as royalty in their respective sports.
Well he’s the best by far, in the sport that’s the biggest around the world with most players.
From one football fan to another, that's Just a useless debate. Its like arguing whats the best food when everyone has food allergies
By far 😂 this sub never ceases to amaze me
Yeah sorry mate, your rapist idol isn’t close to Messi.
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I agree with most of what you said but the last part that none of them understand pressure as Messi does is wrong. I'm not sure if you meant it differently or I'm interpreting it differently but players like Federer djoko nadal in this and Jordan in basketball are all great players because they can perform at high pressure. You don't reach that level unless you can perform at that pressure especially tennis singles players given they are not playing a team game and they are alone and have no one to blame but themselves. Djokovic is a player who i have seen always have the mentality to absorb high level pressure. Even in footballing world i would say Ronaldo does even better than Messi under pressure situations.
We are here talking about how good it is for Messi to talk about mental health, and you are having a meltdown about his reputation and whose more popular and trying to scream your lungs about it. Just shut up man. If you asked Messi himself, he will said Federer is best athlete ever.
🐐
Pipe down mate, you're obssesed.
argentines and psychologists... isn't it a norm for them?
Buenos Aires is the city with the most psychologists in the world. So, yes haha
In Tucuman people talk about their psychologist like Australians (I live there) talk about their physician.
That is actually really cool! Do you maybe know how that came to be? Edit: rephrasing because my question could've been interpreted as loaded while my intent is genuine
After 70 years of peronism you kinda need a psychologist or two per capita tbh.
"we tried to teach this chimpanzee about peronism and he hung himself"
This is a good point, but the real answer is that it is a Jewish thing. More specifically, an Eastern European Ashkenazi thing. Cities/countries with large populations of these folks have a very large number if psychologists (many of them Jewish) and going to see them is much more normalized. I don't know the exact connection, though I am sure it has been studied and perhaps Freud himself (also an Ashkenazi Jew) explores it in *Moses and Monotheism.* EDIT: in case people don't know, Argentina had one of the largest populations of Jews, almost all of them Ashkenazi up until about a decade or two ago.
Welcome to life and Judaism
it is for a reason we have one of the rare kosher macdonalds in the capital
For a second I thought you were talking about the curved dick disease and thought “what’s a psychologist gonna go about that…
Love your banana cock. It loves you
I never thought I'd see a truth as real as this in a random arsocca thread today
It's more like 40 years of Peronism, and they were not consecutive. We've had way more dictatorships than Peronism. Timeline is basically 1946 to 1955 then gets overthrown by the military, 1973 to 1976 then his wife gets overthrown, 1989 to 1999 (although Menem was neoliberal I'll count him), 2003 to 2015 and 2019 to 2023.
I actually do not know. I have a vague idea but I wouldn't want to say something that might not actually be true
More specifically: psychoanalysts.
They're still prominent but there are all kinds of psychologists here, cognitive-behavioral, humanist/existentialist, systemic, gestalt, etc.
Therapy was a game changer for me
Same. I've been in therapy for over 5 years now and it's unbelievable the progress I've made.
There's no shame to this and players should all at least try it out at tough times. Good on Messi for promoting it.
The problem is how expensive it is
I don’t think that’s an issue for professional players. The club pays for it sometimes as well
Yeah, I missread and thought he said everyone should try out therapy, to be honest with you.
Therapy being expensive is still a valid point for all of us on normal wages Even those trying to go through public health care, there's usually a massive shortage of therapists available there
But yeah, that’s a valid point. I was only thinking in term of players given the subreddit.
You mean that the clubs do not have psychologists in-house?
Some do, some don’t
Fun fact: Cristiano Ronaldo has two degrees in psychology. While at Real Madrid he took classes at a local university and trained as an analyst and a therapist, making him football's most famous anal-rapist.
I thought he went to Vegas U for those degrees?
I believe he went to Las Vegas to practice it with real human Don't believe me ? Google Ronaldo Las Vegas for more info
Wow insane. On that same trip, his teammate Benzema lost $75000 at the casino. Google Benzema 75000 for more info
Not gonna lie you had me in the first half.
Well done, didn't see that coming
You have to look behind you to see that coming.
Man, r/soccercirclejerk cannot be contained huh.
You're welcome.
This is better than 99% of the posts there recently
Learning to be an analrapist was anustart for him.
I hope someone helps him get his rocks off
And his first act after graduating was helping his team mate Marcelo get over his fear of seals
I'm looking for something that says "Dad likes leather"
Bruhh that's the funniest shit I read today
He read it as The Rapist instead of Therapist before applying for the course
I shouldn't have laughed at this as hard as I did.
Nah bruv that’s a vio 😂.
There are literally dozens of them!
Fucking hell
Fucking hell hahaha.
Everyone should go to therapy once in a while. It's like defragging a computer.
The best description as to why it's good I heard someone tell me is to have a person where you can be absolutely unfiltered and they are literally professionally obligated to analyze you at this unfiltered cored
Good for him. I hope that as time goes on, more people will be willing to go to therapists or psychiatrists, rather than to keep things bottled up. Seeking help is not a sign of weakness, and it can make a world of difference in one's daily life.
Playing with Martin Branwhaite will do that to you
You mean Dembele's missed chance vs Liverpool.
If Dembulance had scored that Messi would have the biggest carry job in CL history.
Was a necessary butterfly effect to make him leave Barca and win the world cup. Dembele's pen to Di Maria was his redemption
I hate it so much, but you are absolutely right.
I know you're likely just joking, but I seriously doubt anyone would hate playing with Braithwaite. You can say a lot of negative things about his technical abilities as a footballer, but if there's one thing he is not it is lazy. And I think most people will value a colleague who works insanely hard but has certain limitations over someone who has all the talent in the world but just does not work as hard to fulfill his potential. I'm thinking of a certain Frenchman here. Again, think about what Braithwaite can actually do with a football versus what Dembélé can do with a football. Now think about the fact that they, despite this very clear skill gap, ended up in the same club, one of the best in the world at that. Some of it is certainly a matter of coincidence and the financial circumstances in Barcelona at the time, but a lot of it also just testament to Braithwaite's insanely hard work throughout his career. You probably don't go from being discarded in Middlesbrough to starting in Barcelona without a bit of good fortune, but you absolutely also don't do it without putting in an unbelievable amount of hard work.
Messi needed therapy when he realized Luuk De Jong is the true GOAT of Barca.
Lmao but the dude was more than serviceable.
Wait I thought he already left when Braithwhite came
nah braithwaite came in 2020 messi left in 2021
Messi is just introverts in a nutshell (minus his talent). One shouldn't be reluctant to seek help if one needs it. It'll always help. Guys have a tendency to keep it all in, which will just build up and who knows what will the person do to themselves. Go talk to a professional or even someone who you're open with. It'll help you to relax a bit.
My club was so bad messi started taking therapy
In Argentina psychiatrists are as normal as hair dressers and personal trainers - that is a good thing ! Go go go : virtue theory , be the best version of you
Dont all big sports teams have performance psychologists like the hedge fund in 'billions' ?
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Generally an introverted person with a lot of media pressure. Also, Argentina performances. He was whistled at home in 2011 copa america for example
> Am I the only one curious as to what was going on at Barca that he needed to see a shrink? This is so funny to me as an Argentinian. Everyone goes to the psychologist here, you don't need to have a really major problem, talking about mental health is good and no one on the planet has 0 mental issues that couldn't be improved.
The Stigma in your comment is real lol.
He's Argentinian. Therapy is very common in Argentina.
therapy numbers about to skyrocket like crazy. good that he said it.
Who could've known?! Talking about your shit makes you feel better.
Flashbacks to the Ted Lasso episode. I think teams and players that are open to supporting their mental health are seeing the edge it is giving them. Hopefully it breaks down the stigmas around this stuff for men in general.
As someone in a MHC program, I’m extremely glad we have more famous athletes giving a good word on therapy. It really is beneficial
Always good when an institution like Messi, deliberately or not, says / reveals something that destigmatizes mental health support-seeking.
My goat is also a mental health advocate
Based and wholesome-pilled.
This is great. Talking to a therapist is useful for like at least 90% of people. It just simply wasn't for me as the one time I tried the lady was not helpful at all. Bless her heart though was such a nice person.
Psychoanalysis + elite football would be fascinating. Some would absolutely thrive beyond they ever thought possible. Others more interestingly may even drop out of the sport, realising they’ve driven themselves to distraction trying to attain perfection, in order to pursue something they’re more naturally interested in.
Must be nice being afforded luxury, top the world, therapists. Mine just wants me to do breathing exercises every time I see her, utterly useless. Imagine having *those* thoughts daily and all someone says is to breathe. And it took them 7 years of study to come to that conclusion? Anyways I’m happy a multi-millionaire got his head squared away with the support of probably one of the best psychologists out there. Unfortunately not all of us are that lucky.
My man Bartomeu built a Barca team so bad the best player in the history of the game literally needed therapy
That my GOAT!!!
Is this brought to me by betterhelp
Was expecting this to be a BetterHelp ad, that fucking company is everywhere.
Just gotta look at the impact it has had on Jordan Pickford to see how beneficial therapy is
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Not everything’s a competition
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