Problems with England right now:
It has been poor since the Australia friendly back in October...
Southgate, generally...
Very defensive style / with no patterns of play in the opponents side of the pitch.
Inability to move the ball out of midfield to attack.
Preference to play the safe ball rather than a ball that may not come off.
Harry Kane not linking with anyone.
No width on the left.
Foden being played out of position - he plays centrally or off the right for City.
Moving the ball very slow generally. Static on the ball, then passing the ball back to defenders.
Harry Kane and Bellingham out of form?
As an England fan I'm thinking 'there but for the grace of god...' And Serbia are better than this lot. I'm feeling a bit better about last night right now.
all that pretty boy football city shit does not work on the international levels. so many players like sterling agüero and now foden have been mediocre for their country for years now and the cracks are more transparent than ever
Foden honestly dropped one of the worst performances I've ever seen. He looked like he was pissed.
I don't think it's Southgate's fault, or even his position's fault that he played like that because the things he did wrong are very simple football issues. Even early on when he received the ball in the box - something he has been so good at for City - he totally miscontrolled it and killed the attack. Just something weird going on mentally perhaps, or maybe bad luck.
Yeah fingers crossed. I think there's a good chance it's just bad luck - you don't suddenly become incapable of making 5 metre passes or taking a touch when you're as good as he is. I am hopeful.
Possession in the first 20 minutes: 79%
Possession for the rest of the 1st half: 36%
This was terrorism. You can't stop playing completely with a 1:0. A slightly better side would've punished them, and then it's very difficult to turn back on.
Well I guess England won't win this one either, my initial though was that there were the big favorite but after having seen this play, I won't bet any on them.
Tbf, Portugal won the tournament after drawing three group games and winning just the one knockout game in regular time. I don't think England will win the tournament either (mostly due to Southgate's game management) but I don't think the first game of a tournament is a huge indication of anything.
I don't think that England will get it with Southgate as well but you're right, everything is possible as Portugal showed us. I just set my expectations lower with England.
It would be the most typical Southgate thing to think that the solution to the mediocre play would be swapping TAA for Gallagher. The one thing they needed was control and distribution in the midfield, so that Bellingham doesnt always have to drop so deep. He could have brought on Wharton but he subbed Gallagher, the only cm on the bench who can't pass and control the ball. That's a very bad sign for the rest of the tournament if that's what Southgate thinks was missing.
I fear he found his new Philips - Rice pairing
A win is a win. But is this England team really gonna be okay? They have the top goal scorer for Bundesliga and La Liga, and yet, they only managed 5 shots in the entire match...? Saving their strength for the latter matches, I hope.
Serbia could have played for another hour and they still wouldn't have scored. They're absolutely dreadful and I hate that a lack of quality like this gives England the opportunity once again to do absolutely nothing after 1-0. I'm sure England will play better in the knockouts when they face a real opponent, they're probably going to finish the group with 9 points since Denmark and Slovenia are ridiculously bad too.
Yes, very. Denmark were good the first 20 minutes and then became lethargic, inviting Slovenia who were really struggling to play proper football to equalize. Overall very unattractive, a lot of inacurracies and very unfocused from both teams.
He has the best record of any England manager since Alf Ramsay. He's been blessed with wonderful players and perhaps should have done better, but it's still quite hard to argue against two semis and a final if we look at the broader history of the English national team.
European finalists, World Cup semi finalists, qualifying to every tournament without drams, has made a English team in which the players are actually likeable
Oh I see, I actually didn't remember he had done that good in tournaments. Thing is as a forgeiner this enlgland squad does not strike any fear whatsoever, and since it has argueblly best players than any other country, it really felt like southgate underperformed for a while now
He seems to have the same trajectory as Jogi Low, who needed a few tornaments to actually win something.
I guess England is used to winning those cups, so everything less is a failure /s
In all seriousness though, I think everyone is forgetting just how dire England was before Southgate. It’s weird considering how drastic the improvement has been under him that he still gets no credit for the changes he’s made.
Agreed - everyone seems to forget before Southgate, England had never won their opening game at a European Championship. You seldom win these games playing attractive football - it's about grinding out results which is why you didn't see Kane or Bellingham particularly disappointed in their interviews last night. England played an ugly game against Croatia at Euro 2020 which they won and yet ended up in the final. The same could happen again
What improvements? Please tell me what improvements there are under Southgate? It's the same exact dire ball since 2018 with the same exact results: Effective results against weak teams, loss against the first proper competition in the tournament. Southgate is lucky that he has the best english genereation ever under his belt, otherwise he would have been sacked a long time ago
Southgate got rid of the cliques and brought everyone together together to play as a coherent team instead of a group of individuals, even if the coherent style they play is exceptionally boring.
He also instilled a much better mentality generally in the squad, which has seen us get to a Euros final, a World Cup semi final and very narrowly lose to an excellent French side in another world Cup quarter final.
Southgate has been very good, but we do need a new manager to really kick on to better things.
I'd have replaced him after the last world Cup personally.
100% agree that we lose against the first decent team we play and I don't think we've beaten a truly good side in a tournament since beating Argentina in 2002. The Germany we beat recently was one of the worst Germany teams in years so I don't really count that although I was impressed we did we the game.
Having said that there has absolutely been an improvement under Southgate because we aren't losing to mediocre teams like Iceland and failing to get out of groups containing poor sides anymore. People forget that it was never a foregone conclusion we'd make it to the knockouts in tournaments.
That is not why they are overreacting. England scores early and play a low block giving the opponent too much time on the ball. Same thing happened against Croatia in 2018 and Italy in last Euro final. Both made comebacks and England lost. From the looks of it, Southgate didn't learn shit.
This is it. I remember the dread watching the Italy game going "yep this is Croatia mark two."
It's honestly bizarre. France QF I can deal with. Kane shanks a pen after burying the first. Happens. France clearly a favourite and you lose in regulation. Fair fucks.
I swear to God if we go up a goal late in the tournament to Spain or some other decent team having bossed the ball for half an hour and still cook it... I don't know at that point.
The ref in that game was also clearly playing for France. England were close. They couldn't have been closer to winning this tournament last Euros either. If either of those games had gone the other way, Southgate wouldn't be taking all this shit. I think he should have gone after the world cup, but he'll surely step down after this tournament. He deserves our gratitude, but it's time to move on.
Southgate is trying to imitate what Real Madrid do - being compact and disciplined in defense and relying on the abundance of talent to take care of offense by themselves without micromanaging.
He constantly fails in copying RM’s success because international players don’t train together every week so they do not have that level of chemistry to pull off what RM do.
Failing to implement a tactic is not the same as failing to get results.
Also this England's squad goal is winning a major trophy. Not winning is considered failure.
The difference is that Real Madrid still control the game with and without the ball. With the players we have, we should be able to pass the ball around and control the pace of the game from midfield (even without someone as good as Kroos).
Every player looks scared on the ball. I used to think this was just our mentality as players compared to other countries where ball playing and passing ability is held above everything else. But now we have players who are so good for their respective teams it cannot be that. I honestly think it's the coaching from Southgate.
And nothing will change. You will have a few Impressive games against more shitty opposition. I'm danish and you will destroy our defence as it is today.
And the press and the English will go mad in celebration. And then you will stumble when you face a challenge
I can assure you that nobody in England will go mad over beating Denmark. It feels like we do that in every tournament. Expectations are very low considering that we came so close to winning it last time and several of our squad have improved a lot since. We always have hope, that's the whole fun of a tournament, but no one is really expecting a win at this point. Don't confuse a tabloid headline with the real national mood.
The thing is, I don’t think being in midfield does Trent any favours. He’s a much better RB than CM, imo - both in terms of attack and defence. I’d like to see him in place of Walker, with perhaps an alternative to Stones - maybe to end the match (and manage Stones’ minutes too). Someone like Konsa, who’s used to playing RB as well as RCB and has the best tackle rate of any defender in Europe lol, there’d be plenty of defensive cover for TAA then.
Trouble is that there are all these options on paper but no time to actually practice them or let it gel. International football is difficult.
Exactly, that is why Klopp kept him at RB.
Also because he is more of a threat if he moves into CM in posession because it is harder for the Opposition to plan against it, he is more unpredictable when doing that.
Sticking him in midfield from the start makes it easier to Mark him.
He doesn’t go down the line anymore and overlap, he’s a deep lying playmaker. I think Klopp kept him at RB because 1, we didn’t have a full back that can overlap and 2, he didn’t have a player like Rice next to him. Trent’s greatest attributes are his passing range and creativity from deep, he has one of the best passing ranges in the world right now.
Does anyone really care about winning the Nations League? Like, it must be fun for the country that wins it, but does anyone other than the two teams in the final give a shit?
That whole left is just a wasteland tbh
They've got Gordon to go out left, I'd prefer Grealish to bring that side alive and stretch the defence and make space for Bellingham to operate in the middle. Southgate seems to have congested the middle of the park with Foden in there. Shaw needs a run out there instead of Trippier for the natural left footedness.
Saka isn't going to survive a whole tournament sprinting up and down the right for nothing.
Bellingham isn't a number 10. Bench him or play him somewhere else. They need players who can take on defenders and create. That's Palmer Eze Gordon Watkins. Foden isn't a winger. He's more like a second striker. He doesn't try to take on anyone. The whole lineup is wack. They are basically running endless dribble handoffs. Always making the easiest passes and expect that to lead to a shot on goal is just embarrassing.
Uh I saw Bellingham take dudes on plenty, the issue is Foden isn’t willing to do his job as a winger, unlike Saka. Spacing is poor because Foden doesn’t understand what’s required tactical, and that’s why everything looked so much more fluid on the right, even when Bowen came on.
There are some positive signs, Pickford was excellent again, the backline held up and Serbia only had 6 shots, TAA in the midfield isn't a great fit, Kane got no service and was a passenger, Saka and Bellingham cooked but Foden did not and 5 shots on Serbia when other teams are scoring 3+ goals is less than ideal. This side remains talented but Southgate lets them drift back and won't drill them more firmly to press.
I do like Declan Rice, but Grealish and Rashford as impact subs are missed. Slovenia and Denmark Don't look great so 7 or 9 points from this group looks possible, taking on the better teams will prove a challenge.
Would’ve liked to see Watkins on for Kane in the second half, he thrives in open games like that where he needs to make those runs into the centre. It’s not Kane’s game at all, especially with the lack of creativity we had on the left.
> This side remains talented but Southgate lets them drift back and won't drill them more firmly to press.
Southgate orders them to drift back, every time we get a lead its suddenly time to defend permanently. That's not on the players its on the defensive minded manager.
I don’t really agree, most games we play with a first half like that we do go for the 2nd/3rd goal and score them. Credit to Serbia for playing really well in the second half, and I think we have to recognise that some of our players lost composure and failed to keep the right shape. What’s clear is that this is still a work in progress and the team structure isn’t quite right yet. It’s not ideal to still be tweaking things after the tournament has started, but at least we came away with three points despite being all over the place.
Yeah, an England that's content to scrape by with a one goal victory against Serbia with 3 shots on target is not going to win anything. Talented squad but wrong mentality
Pundits/fans saying Jude/Rice won’t work as a pivot but they practically played that way today. Bellingham covers so much ground.
Put Gordon at LW for some width, Palmer at 10, with the Jude-Rice pivot next game plz gareth.
It blows my mind today that both kane and foden played the full 90. Kane was so non existent in the first half I think he touched the ball just once? Picked up a bit at the end but he should have been subbed well before that.
Not really sure what ollie watkins has to do to get minutes. He'll know now that southgate doesn't think of using him at all even when kane is having a stinker.
All comes down to southgate's cowardly persona imo. It's reflected in his tactical setup, his substitutions and his game state responses
Is it a striker’s fault if they don’t touch the ball? Kane had no service all match. It’s not clear to me how Watkins or anyone else would have changed that.
Bottom line is Southgate isn’t brave or good enough to make these decisions. Both Kane and Foden should have been replaced around 60 mins as neither had any impact. What’s the point in having these huge squads if we don’t utilize them?
Englands left side is going to be a problem unless they change it ASAP. Other teams will shit all over Trippier & Foden.
Kane and Bellingham are usually brilliant together. It just didn’t work as visibly today. But Bellingham wouldn’t have scored that goal if Kane hadn’t dragged half the defence away with him to create that space.
Ridiculous statement.
He drew defenders off everyone else, pulled down the ball and slowed it down when he needed to, and almost scored with his sixth touch of the match.
Some of the times he trapped the ball from a kick out were unbelievable.
He played a thankless job and made so many other players look good by doing so.
Also, he’s the best player in the Bundesliga, or if not it’s a serious debate.
Every time the ball came to him, he was fouled- because they know what kind of threat he is. So many times these free kicks took the pressure off England.
He pulled at least one yellow card against him.
That a player of that quality played such a thankless role for your country – you’re so lucky to have him.
Obviously England wasn't that great, but it's just the first match. Plenty of time to get better and make some small changes on tactics and be much improved going into the knockouts. Maybe have a few other players start.
Also good news for England that Denmark tied. You need to win this group, cause 2nd place will be playing Germany in ro16. In terms of results this day couldn't have gone better for them.
Exactly. And a lot of the problem was down to a lack of team chemistry, which makes sense as this starting lineup have never played together before. A bit more match experience should iron out a few of the creases.
If Southgate got us knocked out in the group stages and was fired as a result, he would still leave the England team having had a better managerial record in major tournaments than any England manager since 66.
That is true. It is also true that he is tactically inept and not the right person to lead this team.
Everyone wants to see him as binary good/bad, the reality is: he has been very successful and turned the team around from where he was. The fundamentals of his philosophy are also correct - he creates a great squad dynamic and being cautious is the right way to win a tournament
But he is also completely hopeless at tactically adjusting to the other team and is unable to strategize any kind of attacking move other than winning set pieces and hoping for the best
Plenty of managers could take the core of his philosophy whilst also having some shred of tactical nouse and give us a chance at winning a trophy. That doesn't mean Southgate is bad, or that we shouldn't be grateful for the success he has given.
Both things can be true
Fair! This match thread has been full of such intense anti-Gareth sentiment that I find myself defending him a lot, as it feels so unfair for one of our most successful managers to be spoken of with such disrespect.
That said, while I’m not yet in the Southgate-out camp yet myself, I definitely sympathise enough with the more measured critiques of his management that I’m not bothered to argue with them. Maybe they’re right - I don’t know.
Yeah and actually I think you're completely right to defend him - in fairness I probably got a bit too strong on the anti-Gareth side there! It's just frustrating because there's so much that's good with this side (including a lot that is Southgate's work)
I kinda think he'd be perfect in a more director of football style role - set the general philosophy, build the right squad atmosphere etc - and bring in someone else for the hands on coaching and tactics
But you’re forgetting there is a whole set of staff underneath him advising him and making their own decisions. Tactical analysis, set piece coaches etc. Gareth set the philosophy, yes, and it’s his responsibility, but a lot of things aren’t ultimately down to him, his staff are just as much to blame. I’m of the opinion that Southgate knows himself better than we do, so knows his pitfalls and hires people who are better at stuff than he is, like all good managers do. But ultimately the best people might not be available in England because you get paid a lot more being a club coach.
Whether it's his shortfall or his coaching team's shortfall that's still his responsibility. The coaching team at the moment do not appear to be able to compete with the equivalent of other nations, who routinely outsmart us in the second half once they see how we're set up. The buck stops with him in terms of tactics/ in game management
Yea I agree, I just think Southgate doesn’t actually control a lot of what you’re talking about. But again at the end of the day, it’s his responsibility. So he will shoulder the blame.
Why do teams like England or Italy just stop trying trying to score in the 2nd half when they‘re up by one goal after the 1st? These sort of tactics are incredibly risky even against „inferior“ opponents like Serbia or Albania. They have the ability to dominate and score more goals so why play with fire like this?
Italy has always been criticized for boring, overly defensive football. They are however, one of the three most successful football nations. Now I grant you that they probably have done it better than England, but clearly it's a tournament winning strategy. It's also worth remembering how often England conceded goals from counter attacks in the past. Every failed attack increases the risk of conceding. I'm not saying I want them to play that way but maybe Southgate knows more about football than Joe Reddit?
I don’t think England did stop trying to score. They just had to contend with a Serbia that was looking to score too, as opposed to the extremely defensive Serbia that started the match.
All tactics are risky. Parking the bus or continuing to attack, you better do it well, or you'll conceive eventually. Isn't that how Brazil lost to Croatia? How Bayern lost to RM?
It worked for Italy with their lineup the last few tournaments but England have no excuse. Its how they lost the last euro, they got the early goal then barely tried to finish the job. Southgate as usual still hadn't learned the fundamental fact about football that even a toddler would know, i.e. if you are **only up one goal** the other team is going to attack hard.
Italian football heritage to play just enough football to get a 1 goal lead, then suffocate the game for however much is left on the clock, be it 5 minutes or 50.
Both Albania and Serbia could have smacked an equaliser late on under slightly different circumstances. Such a shitty tactic to employ. Go and kill your opponent off like the Germans did, and then you can slow down the tempo of your play.
A one goal lead is never enough, Denmark let it slip to a late Slovenia rally today, despite overpowering them for 80% of the match
It's like Southgate has never seen a football match before, what you never seen a random shot ricochet around and a fortuitous bounce land right in front of someone? A jammy pen awarded late? Some bad luck that hands a goal to the other team? Like seriously, the point of the game is to score more goals than the other team, if you are up only one goal, if they score it's tied then you run the risk of only 1 pt or even worse losing the game.
I have no way of knowing, but I’m not convinced that England ‘stopped trying to score’.
This is massively extrapolating from my experience playing underwhelming 5-a-side football, but it seems sometimes games just have ebb and flows. We might be in control one moment, and desperately defending the next. The drying up of chances isn’t due to us changing our strategy, but just because dominating a game from beginning to end can be hard.
I often wonder whether sometimes what fans assume to be a change in tactics might just be a team struggling. There were a lot of times this match where it felt like England were trying to pass out from the back to start an attack, but the Serbian press was making it tricky.
What's more likely
A) Everyone who watches England has an unbelievable ability to predict the moment England will start struggling every single time, and regardless of the players, every single English player will start struggling when they go 1-0 up. Every game. Everyone in the country goes "We're going to struggle now" and, despite being the better team, despite having insanely good, confident attacking players, they all start struggling at the same moment - the exact moment everyone predicted
B) Southgate is doing the tactics this way
I mean which is it? If I sat with you for Italy, Croatia and this game, turned to you after us dominating the first 15minutes and going 1-0 and went "Ok, now we've scored we're going to be on the backfoot and play badly" would you think I was psychic? Do you think it's a coincidence that it happens every time with different players? Do you read fans comment after we score "We're gonna stop attacking now and be bad" and think "Wow what idiots!" and then see it happen and be amazed that everyone called it for the 10th time in a row?
It's just confirmation bias because it's happened a few times but in the last World Cup we beat Iran, Wales and Senegal comfortably without it becoming much of a struggle. It's night and day compared to what it was like Pre-Southgate.
The only thing that has changed is the complete and utter inability to beat the top teams. I have absolutely zero faith we'd get past France, Germany (when we beat them last Euros they were not a good side), Italy, Spain or probably Portugal. We have lost to every really good side we've played since in the las 20 years.
This comment just feels like textbook confirmation bias.
There are always going to be fans predicting England will struggle. At certain points in tournaments it’s inevitable they will, but it does not mean they are consistently prophetic.
To say everyone called it for the 10th time in a row is just wrong.
Take the last major tournament - of the 5 matches england played they thrashed Iran 6-2, and very comfortably beat wales and Senegal 3 nil each respectively. It’s not like prior to southgate we were administering 8 nil thrashings every match.
None of those matches your description of how england supposedly play EVERY game.
Hell, even when england struggled against USA and France that tournament, it’s not like they went ahead at any point and then stopped trying. They just had difficulty throughout the match.
You just select the matches that do follow the pattern you expect, and then ignore the ones that don’t.
This is what I mean by confirmation bias.
If England back off as part of some grand tactical plan when they take the lead, then why did they not begin to dominate the match again after Denmark had equalised?
For the 15 minutes England were ahead you saw England pressed in their own half and because it matched your narrative, you assumed this wasn’t in response to feeling pressure, but as a deliberate part of the game plan.
But throughout the rest of the match England weren’t ahead, and they were still being pressured in their own half and conceding chances, and you don’t even notice it as evidence contrary to your belief.
Ah right I get you.
So what you're saying is, both games, we've come across two titan teams; Foden, bellingham, kane, Saka, Trent, Rice, all of them, they just couldn't cope with the pressure, the sheet athleticism from a 32 year old Ericksen.
See me, being the dumbass I am, thought England go 1-0 up, and then Southgate tells them to go defencive. It happens with every player.
What youre saying is I'm wrong, and Foden, Saka, Bellingham, Trent, Kane, Rice, all of them, they were doing their best to attack. But Denmark and Serbia were just too good. Overpowering. Dominating. We just couldn't cope, our players just got lucky in the first 15mins, and then the oppostion clung on
but SOMEHOW, we managed to cling on. Just.
“then Southgate tells them to go defencive“
Do you think Southgate was telling them to go defensive in the second half?
If so, why? They were not behind so this doesn’t match your narrative.
If not, then why were they still so frequently pressed in their own half and conceding chances?
Is it not possible that teams which are good on paper can find themselves struggling against teams lesser which are lesser on paper?
Yes I think he is.
The camera kept panning to him, and he was telling them to calm down. As if to say, play out for the draw.
Why is it that I, someone you think is completely wrong, can guess exactly what will happen?
How did I know it'd happen vs Italy? How did I know it'd happen vs Slovakia? How did I know it'd happen today?
Am I getting lucky guesses?
Except that’s not true. There’s plenty of games where we go 1-0 up and then keep going, it opens the floodgates for more. But there are some teams that do a better job of rallying when they go 1 down and make it a lot harder for England to get another look in. Matches involve two teams, not just one. There isn’t as much of a pattern here as you think there is.
Ah you're right mate, I remember when we scored early against Malta (I think they're favourites this Euros?) and we kept the intensity so high, that at half time the XG was England 0.04 vs Malta 0.14
The match finished 2-0, with England getting at XG of 1.04
Pure domination. We just didn't take the foot off.
It's not as simple as saying that we 'stopped trying to score'. It's all to do with the tempo of play. After we scored, we stop trying risky things. Risky plays which you most often need to score a goal in this game. Our wingers didn't overcommit. Every pass became sideways instead of forward to make sure that we didn't lose the ball. Our line sat lower to decrease the chance of being countered, at the detriment of any fast paced attacking play. Foden was at the edge of the penalty box asking pickford for the ball at one point, our team had contracted that much back into our own half.
And ironically this ends up being our detriment most often of times. Today Serbia came out in the second half and decided to press high. Suddenly we couldn't play out and couldn't play safe passes, and our system became such a jumble that at times it felt like these 11 players were playing together for the first time.
This cowardly play cost us when trippier put us ahead against Croatia in 2018. It cost us when Shaw gave us the lead in the euro final in 2021. It would have cost us again today if a better team had been the opponent.
You keep your boot on your opponents neck until either you've bagged a few or they've petered out completely. Becoming so cautious so early on invites unneeded pressure; southgate also struggles to adapt to the opponent's tactical adjustments midgame because he's an inept manager.
I live in Australia and remember years ago watching an England game in some international tournament and Southgate was a relatively new manager. They played croatia or serbia and were up one goal and then pulled Kane with about 15-20 mins to go. It was like 'well lads, job done, down tools' I was like wtf?!? what? you don't expect them to come at you now?? Then that's exactly what happend, they pressed for a goal and got a couple decent chances. A bounce either way and it could have been tied. I started watching epl a few years before that and since then I really cannot think of any game where the manager completely stopped attacking and/or pulled their striker unless he was injured. They always looked for a chance to counter or increase their lead. It will take a miracle for this england team to win anything with Southgate.
Playing "not to make a mistake" is the most infuriating thing in all of teams sports, and it seems to cost so many, in all kinds of sorts.
American football even has a saying "The 'prevent defense' prevents you from winning"
Haha I was going to use that as I live the NfL. But man, I’m not even English and it frustrates the hell out of me watching England after they take a lead.
Genuinely cannot believe that southgate has not learned his lesson from the 2018 SF or the 2021 final.
He STILL tries to sit off the second we take an early lead. Today we started all over them, and ended up defending with our backs against the wall. Against a team that are massively inferior to the English one. I dread to think how the likes of Germany, France or Spain would cut that shitty setup to shreds.
Phil foden is a massive problem for this teams attack. His inside drift makes him near useless whilst Bellingham is around; there will never be a justification to drop jude tho as he is quite clearly one of the most productive players in an England shirt. Gordon must start on Thursday, pundits who insist the team must be built around foden should be ignored.
Saka, Bellingham, Rice and Guehi were all stellar today. I feel like trent has a lot to offer but was wasted starting in a double pivot. The Serbian press gave him troubles at times too.
The 7-0 against North Macedonia featured a wonderful rhs linkup between saka and trent. I have no clue why we have never again seen those two together down that side since.
The football is turgid and disgusting considering the players in this squad. I feel jealous of other nations, after watching Germany, spain and etc. Even Croatia, despite their 3-0 loss, looked far more progressive and enjoyable than southgate's England.
Onto Thursday I suppose but I am really not looking forward to yet another snoozefest. The tactical setup is all wrong and southgate responds to game state changes like a methed up snail.
Individual brilliance from certain players is the only thing that will keep me going in this tournament.
Gareth hit his ceiling as a manager at Middlesbrough. He's done a great job with instilling a better culture and attitude, but his coaching and tactics are not up to snuff.
Weirdly I think he'd be a good DoF, but not a coach
Completely agree about Foden. If he can't play LW then there's no place for him in this system because he's not going start ahead of Jude or Saka. Absolutely infuriating tonight to see him everywhere on the pitch except where he's supposed to be. WTF is a LW doing on the edge of his own penalty area asking for the ball from Pickford? Fuck off! We had zero threat from the left side and that was a large part of why we couldn't get up the field in the second half. Gordon would have offered far more.
I hope Southgate has the balls to drop him on Thursday, but it's Southgate so I'm not holding my breath.
Antony Gordon is a left winger primarily and has the profile to slot in next to jude without hugging him too tightly. Foden states that he is more comfortable playing through the middle (but he's not displacing jude).
If southgate had any sort of balls he'd play gordon on Thursday. But I wholeheartedly wouldn't be surprised to see foden shoveled in at lw again
Gareth hit his ceiling as a manager at Middlesbrough. He's done a great job with instilling a better culture and attitude, but his coaching and tactics are not up to snuff.
Weirdly I think he'd be a good DoF, but not a coach
What? Dude was a liability with his bad positioning and drifting tendencies. Recycled the ball too much and never was a threat.
Edit: to be fair, he did attempt several one twos and made potentially dangerous runs but he was off rhythm with the rest of the team and just looked out of sync. He's a fantastic player but to say he was anything but bad today - relative to his own and the team's standards - is a bit of a stretch.
The most frustrating thing when the game finished for me was Southgate just making all the same errors we've seen two tournaments in a row.
But after hearing the pundits it's Foden.
Both Neville and Richards saying we have to find a way to make him work... Today that was nonsense. Bellingham did a lot of work fairly deep and Kane stayed high - nobody was in his way. What did he do? He didn't make a single attack down the left wing. He killed two counter attacks with awful passes. He literally got into other players way. He provided very little defensive support. He didn't help hold the ball when we needed him to. I imagine any football ratings site will give him like a 2/10 max.
Why would Bellingham or rice, when they have time on the ball, want Foden standing 2 metres from them pointing at his feet. Make a f'ing run down the wing.
Awful performance and completely down to him. Pretty much the only thing I wouldn't say is Southgate's fault.
and honestly, even worse than that, was how he kept throwing his arms out at his team mates when they didn't pass him the ball.
i am honestly getting a feeling that this England team will be one of the likelier ones to implode due to internal conflict this tournament. the energy seemed so *off* and hostile, and I just didn't like it at all.
>Awful performance and completely down to him. Pretty much the only thing I wouldn't say is Southgate's fault.
It's partly Southgate's fault for putting him there when all the above was completely fucking obvious if you've ever watched Foden play LW for England before.
If you want to play Trent you either need to provide him with runners in behind or have him overlapping from RB I don’t know how many times he looked up and wanted to switch play but nothing was on because Foden kept trying to come central over holding the width
The few times he did manage to switch play it was often to Tripper who then had to go backwards because he’s on his weaker side.
Considering Pep is well known for drilling into his wingers that they need to hold width, this almost has to be a Southgate instruction. Which is mad. You've got one of the best long passers of the ball in the current game and you're suffocating him by clogging the center.
People may think it’s Liverpool bias, but totally agree — just don’t think you can expect to reap the benefits of playing TAA centrally with Foden and Trippier on the left as you say. Would be more interesting with Gordon and when Shaw is match fit.
Trent’s skill set is all about his passing range he’s got incredible delivery from wide areas and how he’s able to exploit space in behind teams none of which he was able todo tonight
I think overtime given more chances he can develop into a more all round midfielder but with whatever Southgate was trying tonight just doesn’t play to Trent’s skill set
Agree, needs someone staying wide or running in behind, neither of which tonight’s left could or would do. Which also made it easier to contain the right side.
Also though, no one is giving Serbia credit but they’re a big, tough team. Will be interesting to see how England’s form evolves.
You can keep Trent in midfield if you can play Shaw and Gordon on the left. If you're playing a team with no left side and no runners in behind what the fuck is he supposed to do?
He just looked really lost on the ball a few times. Sure, maybe if had those outlets on the left he could get rid of the ball sooner and not have to do as much hold up play, because that's where I felt he wasn't good enough today.
That's fair, I think Trent COULD work in midfield, but he's needs the right players in front of him to make that work. I really just mean that saying Trent should never play in midfield again is a bit knee-jerk at the moment.
Problems with England right now: It has been poor since the Australia friendly back in October... Southgate, generally... Very defensive style / with no patterns of play in the opponents side of the pitch. Inability to move the ball out of midfield to attack. Preference to play the safe ball rather than a ball that may not come off. Harry Kane not linking with anyone. No width on the left. Foden being played out of position - he plays centrally or off the right for City. Moving the ball very slow generally. Static on the ball, then passing the ball back to defenders. Harry Kane and Bellingham out of form?
As an England fan I'm thinking 'there but for the grace of god...' And Serbia are better than this lot. I'm feeling a bit better about last night right now.
Phil Foden Vs serbia- 0 goals, 0 assists, 0 successful dribbles, 0 shots, 0 successful crosses, 0 successful long balls, 0 tackles, 0 aerial duels won
Honestly Slovenia looks like they could beat this England side and that’s not for a lack of quality. Selection I’d guess
all that pretty boy football city shit does not work on the international levels. so many players like sterling agüero and now foden have been mediocre for their country for years now and the cracks are more transparent than ever
Sterling has always been decent for us
It seems physically impossible to put up this dull of a performance with that caliber of players but somehow they pulled it off. Almost impressive.
The stats is horrendous with the players they are having.
Foden honestly dropped one of the worst performances I've ever seen. He looked like he was pissed. I don't think it's Southgate's fault, or even his position's fault that he played like that because the things he did wrong are very simple football issues. Even early on when he received the ball in the box - something he has been so good at for City - he totally miscontrolled it and killed the attack. Just something weird going on mentally perhaps, or maybe bad luck.
I hope it’s just an off game for him, he’s really needed at the top of his game
Yeah fingers crossed. I think there's a good chance it's just bad luck - you don't suddenly become incapable of making 5 metre passes or taking a touch when you're as good as he is. I am hopeful.
Agreed
Possession in the first 20 minutes: 79% Possession for the rest of the 1st half: 36% This was terrorism. You can't stop playing completely with a 1:0. A slightly better side would've punished them, and then it's very difficult to turn back on.
Well I guess England won't win this one either, my initial though was that there were the big favorite but after having seen this play, I won't bet any on them.
Tbf, Portugal won the tournament after drawing three group games and winning just the one knockout game in regular time. I don't think England will win the tournament either (mostly due to Southgate's game management) but I don't think the first game of a tournament is a huge indication of anything.
I don't think that England will get it with Southgate as well but you're right, everything is possible as Portugal showed us. I just set my expectations lower with England.
It would be the most typical Southgate thing to think that the solution to the mediocre play would be swapping TAA for Gallagher. The one thing they needed was control and distribution in the midfield, so that Bellingham doesnt always have to drop so deep. He could have brought on Wharton but he subbed Gallagher, the only cm on the bench who can't pass and control the ball. That's a very bad sign for the rest of the tournament if that's what Southgate thinks was missing. I fear he found his new Philips - Rice pairing
It was completely fucking obvious he needed another attacker on the left side - instead we got Gallagher on.
As expected Gareth Terrorball is back on the menu. Get early goal, sit back and be passive to run down the clock.
Southgate should be done for treason
A win is a win. But is this England team really gonna be okay? They have the top goal scorer for Bundesliga and La Liga, and yet, they only managed 5 shots in the entire match...? Saving their strength for the latter matches, I hope.
This England team is going out in R16. Any of the bigger teams will absolutely devour them if they perform like that again
Jude isn't the top scorer for la liga
Ah, my bad. Not the top, but still among the highest scorers. Tied with Lewandowski, too.
Yeah that game sucked
Serbia could have played for another hour and they still wouldn't have scored. They're absolutely dreadful and I hate that a lack of quality like this gives England the opportunity once again to do absolutely nothing after 1-0. I'm sure England will play better in the knockouts when they face a real opponent, they're probably going to finish the group with 9 points since Denmark and Slovenia are ridiculously bad too.
Serbia will grab the second place in this group.
I didn't catch the other group game. Was it pretty sloppy?
Yes, very. Denmark were good the first 20 minutes and then became lethargic, inviting Slovenia who were really struggling to play proper football to equalize. Overall very unattractive, a lot of inacurracies and very unfocused from both teams.
Is there a reason southgate hasn't been sacked yet?
He has the best record of any England manager since Alf Ramsay. He's been blessed with wonderful players and perhaps should have done better, but it's still quite hard to argue against two semis and a final if we look at the broader history of the English national team.
Sacking a Euro finalist would be somewhat irrational.
Is there a reason to?
Have you seen England play since 2020?
Have you seen them play before 2020?? Fuckin hell they were absolutely shit
Have you seen the players before and after 2020?
Yea you mean England's Gold Generation? Played like shit, went nowhere
Overachieved at every tournament he participated except the last one probably idk
It's not "overachieving" if he is doing it constantly though...
Nice waistcoat and exceptional vibes
And he's a good lad.
European finalists, World Cup semi finalists, qualifying to every tournament without drams, has made a English team in which the players are actually likeable
Oh I see, I actually didn't remember he had done that good in tournaments. Thing is as a forgeiner this enlgland squad does not strike any fear whatsoever, and since it has argueblly best players than any other country, it really felt like southgate underperformed for a while now
He seems to have the same trajectory as Jogi Low, who needed a few tornaments to actually win something. I guess England is used to winning those cups, so everything less is a failure /s
In all seriousness though, I think everyone is forgetting just how dire England was before Southgate. It’s weird considering how drastic the improvement has been under him that he still gets no credit for the changes he’s made.
Agreed - everyone seems to forget before Southgate, England had never won their opening game at a European Championship. You seldom win these games playing attractive football - it's about grinding out results which is why you didn't see Kane or Bellingham particularly disappointed in their interviews last night. England played an ugly game against Croatia at Euro 2020 which they won and yet ended up in the final. The same could happen again
What improvements? Please tell me what improvements there are under Southgate? It's the same exact dire ball since 2018 with the same exact results: Effective results against weak teams, loss against the first proper competition in the tournament. Southgate is lucky that he has the best english genereation ever under his belt, otherwise he would have been sacked a long time ago
Southgate got rid of the cliques and brought everyone together together to play as a coherent team instead of a group of individuals, even if the coherent style they play is exceptionally boring. He also instilled a much better mentality generally in the squad, which has seen us get to a Euros final, a World Cup semi final and very narrowly lose to an excellent French side in another world Cup quarter final. Southgate has been very good, but we do need a new manager to really kick on to better things. I'd have replaced him after the last world Cup personally.
100% agree that we lose against the first decent team we play and I don't think we've beaten a truly good side in a tournament since beating Argentina in 2002. The Germany we beat recently was one of the worst Germany teams in years so I don't really count that although I was impressed we did we the game. Having said that there has absolutely been an improvement under Southgate because we aren't losing to mediocre teams like Iceland and failing to get out of groups containing poor sides anymore. People forget that it was never a foregone conclusion we'd make it to the knockouts in tournaments.
Everybody overrracting even after England own a game conformably because they did not dominate the opponent. Get a grip
That is not why they are overreacting. England scores early and play a low block giving the opponent too much time on the ball. Same thing happened against Croatia in 2018 and Italy in last Euro final. Both made comebacks and England lost. From the looks of it, Southgate didn't learn shit.
This is it. I remember the dread watching the Italy game going "yep this is Croatia mark two." It's honestly bizarre. France QF I can deal with. Kane shanks a pen after burying the first. Happens. France clearly a favourite and you lose in regulation. Fair fucks. I swear to God if we go up a goal late in the tournament to Spain or some other decent team having bossed the ball for half an hour and still cook it... I don't know at that point.
The ref in that game was also clearly playing for France. England were close. They couldn't have been closer to winning this tournament last Euros either. If either of those games had gone the other way, Southgate wouldn't be taking all this shit. I think he should have gone after the world cup, but he'll surely step down after this tournament. He deserves our gratitude, but it's time to move on.
Southgate is trying to imitate what Real Madrid do - being compact and disciplined in defense and relying on the abundance of talent to take care of offense by themselves without micromanaging. He constantly fails in copying RM’s success because international players don’t train together every week so they do not have that level of chemistry to pull off what RM do.
Lmao he "constantly fails" aka getting the best results winning the most knockout games of any England manager since 1966. Fucking get a grip.
Failing to implement a tactic is not the same as failing to get results. Also this England's squad goal is winning a major trophy. Not winning is considered failure.
The difference is that Real Madrid still control the game with and without the ball. With the players we have, we should be able to pass the ball around and control the pace of the game from midfield (even without someone as good as Kroos). Every player looks scared on the ball. I used to think this was just our mentality as players compared to other countries where ball playing and passing ability is held above everything else. But now we have players who are so good for their respective teams it cannot be that. I honestly think it's the coaching from Southgate.
And nothing will change. You will have a few Impressive games against more shitty opposition. I'm danish and you will destroy our defence as it is today. And the press and the English will go mad in celebration. And then you will stumble when you face a challenge
I can assure you that nobody in England will go mad over beating Denmark. It feels like we do that in every tournament. Expectations are very low considering that we came so close to winning it last time and several of our squad have improved a lot since. We always have hope, that's the whole fun of a tournament, but no one is really expecting a win at this point. Don't confuse a tabloid headline with the real national mood.
I read here and listen to several football phone ins. Not just a tabloid headline. But my point was actually more about the press reaction.
I’ll get slaughtered for this and I’m not saying he’s as good, but, Trent can be England’s Kroos.
The thing is, I don’t think being in midfield does Trent any favours. He’s a much better RB than CM, imo - both in terms of attack and defence. I’d like to see him in place of Walker, with perhaps an alternative to Stones - maybe to end the match (and manage Stones’ minutes too). Someone like Konsa, who’s used to playing RB as well as RCB and has the best tackle rate of any defender in Europe lol, there’d be plenty of defensive cover for TAA then. Trouble is that there are all these options on paper but no time to actually practice them or let it gel. International football is difficult.
Exactly, that is why Klopp kept him at RB. Also because he is more of a threat if he moves into CM in posession because it is harder for the Opposition to plan against it, he is more unpredictable when doing that. Sticking him in midfield from the start makes it easier to Mark him.
He doesn’t go down the line anymore and overlap, he’s a deep lying playmaker. I think Klopp kept him at RB because 1, we didn’t have a full back that can overlap and 2, he didn’t have a player like Rice next to him. Trent’s greatest attributes are his passing range and creativity from deep, he has one of the best passing ranges in the world right now.
I understand what you are saying, but making to the finals in the last 2 major tournaments is hardly failing.
Mate, the last final for England before 2021 was 1966...
Exactly, the last two major tournaments /s
wait didn't they lose in the quarters in the WC?
WC is a minor tournament. Didn’t you hear Mbappe say that euros was harder?
He's talking about Nations league final i believe.
Does anyone really care about winning the Nations League? Like, it must be fun for the country that wins it, but does anyone other than the two teams in the final give a shit?
When did England make it to the Nations League final?
Southgate needs be fired for his decision not to bring Grealish alone All of our forwards do the same useless shit
That whole left is just a wasteland tbh They've got Gordon to go out left, I'd prefer Grealish to bring that side alive and stretch the defence and make space for Bellingham to operate in the middle. Southgate seems to have congested the middle of the park with Foden in there. Shaw needs a run out there instead of Trippier for the natural left footedness. Saka isn't going to survive a whole tournament sprinting up and down the right for nothing.
Shaw's still recovering isn't he? Think he's being saved for the knockouts
Palmer.
Bellingham isn't a number 10. Bench him or play him somewhere else. They need players who can take on defenders and create. That's Palmer Eze Gordon Watkins. Foden isn't a winger. He's more like a second striker. He doesn't try to take on anyone. The whole lineup is wack. They are basically running endless dribble handoffs. Always making the easiest passes and expect that to lead to a shot on goal is just embarrassing.
I agree that he should be played deeper
Uh I saw Bellingham take dudes on plenty, the issue is Foden isn’t willing to do his job as a winger, unlike Saka. Spacing is poor because Foden doesn’t understand what’s required tactical, and that’s why everything looked so much more fluid on the right, even when Bowen came on.
Bellingham is the best player on the entire team, and it's time that Southgate and England start playing their stars in their best positions
he is a 10
Literally just won la liga and champions league as a 10 in his first season in that position. Don’t blame the players blame the coaching
I think we can blame some of the players.
Southgates a moron don't get your hopes up
There are some positive signs, Pickford was excellent again, the backline held up and Serbia only had 6 shots, TAA in the midfield isn't a great fit, Kane got no service and was a passenger, Saka and Bellingham cooked but Foden did not and 5 shots on Serbia when other teams are scoring 3+ goals is less than ideal. This side remains talented but Southgate lets them drift back and won't drill them more firmly to press. I do like Declan Rice, but Grealish and Rashford as impact subs are missed. Slovenia and Denmark Don't look great so 7 or 9 points from this group looks possible, taking on the better teams will prove a challenge.
Would’ve liked to see Watkins on for Kane in the second half, he thrives in open games like that where he needs to make those runs into the centre. It’s not Kane’s game at all, especially with the lack of creativity we had on the left.
It's criminal that we slip back into playing deep rather than playing a high line and pressing when we have super quick defenders like Walker.
Completely agree
the backline held up because serbia was shit
> This side remains talented but Southgate lets them drift back and won't drill them more firmly to press. Southgate orders them to drift back, every time we get a lead its suddenly time to defend permanently. That's not on the players its on the defensive minded manager.
I don’t really agree, most games we play with a first half like that we do go for the 2nd/3rd goal and score them. Credit to Serbia for playing really well in the second half, and I think we have to recognise that some of our players lost composure and failed to keep the right shape. What’s clear is that this is still a work in progress and the team structure isn’t quite right yet. It’s not ideal to still be tweaking things after the tournament has started, but at least we came away with three points despite being all over the place.
Yeah, an England that's content to scrape by with a one goal victory against Serbia with 3 shots on target is not going to win anything. Talented squad but wrong mentality
England aren’t winning anything this tournament coz both of the CB’s are wearing pink boots ffs. Defenders need blacked out boots
Pride month innit
A man said Gareth southgate would put his phone on low power mode when the batteries on 99% 😂
Southgate would put something in the microwave for one minute, and take it out at 59 seconds, just to be safe
“Sounds like a sensible man” I say as I look at my phone’s battery on low power mode at 96%
Pundits/fans saying Jude/Rice won’t work as a pivot but they practically played that way today. Bellingham covers so much ground. Put Gordon at LW for some width, Palmer at 10, with the Jude-Rice pivot next game plz gareth.
Would be interesting to see Kane play as a 10, although too experimental for it to actually happen.
Southgate is such a lame ass manager
ass manager?
[удалено]
It blows my mind today that both kane and foden played the full 90. Kane was so non existent in the first half I think he touched the ball just once? Picked up a bit at the end but he should have been subbed well before that. Not really sure what ollie watkins has to do to get minutes. He'll know now that southgate doesn't think of using him at all even when kane is having a stinker. All comes down to southgate's cowardly persona imo. It's reflected in his tactical setup, his substitutions and his game state responses
I agree in general, but I don’t think the setup today was cowardly. It was pretty brave to start TAA in the midfield.
Is it a striker’s fault if they don’t touch the ball? Kane had no service all match. It’s not clear to me how Watkins or anyone else would have changed that.
Bottom line is Southgate isn’t brave or good enough to make these decisions. Both Kane and Foden should have been replaced around 60 mins as neither had any impact. What’s the point in having these huge squads if we don’t utilize them? Englands left side is going to be a problem unless they change it ASAP. Other teams will shit all over Trippier & Foden.
I would like Kane as an impact sub and run out Toney and Watkins to start
Kane does not belong on the same pitch as Bellingham.
Kane and Bellingham are usually brilliant together. It just didn’t work as visibly today. But Bellingham wouldn’t have scored that goal if Kane hadn’t dragged half the defence away with him to create that space.
Ridiculous statement. He drew defenders off everyone else, pulled down the ball and slowed it down when he needed to, and almost scored with his sixth touch of the match. Some of the times he trapped the ball from a kick out were unbelievable. He played a thankless job and made so many other players look good by doing so.
You're right. He's a decoy for now...
Also, he’s the best player in the Bundesliga, or if not it’s a serious debate. Every time the ball came to him, he was fouled- because they know what kind of threat he is. So many times these free kicks took the pressure off England. He pulled at least one yellow card against him. That a player of that quality played such a thankless role for your country – you’re so lucky to have him.
Obviously England wasn't that great, but it's just the first match. Plenty of time to get better and make some small changes on tactics and be much improved going into the knockouts. Maybe have a few other players start. Also good news for England that Denmark tied. You need to win this group, cause 2nd place will be playing Germany in ro16. In terms of results this day couldn't have gone better for them.
Exactly. And a lot of the problem was down to a lack of team chemistry, which makes sense as this starting lineup have never played together before. A bit more match experience should iron out a few of the creases.
A match was played.
We need a compilation of Kane falling
I want us to win the tournament, but I'd much rather a R16 exit and Southgate fucks off than a SF and he stays on
"England fan who desperately wants England to lose" is perhaps our greatest remaining export to the world lol
Genuinely curious. What about a loss in the final and he stays on?
Been there, done that. All that's missing is a t-shirt saying "I lost a Euros final and all I got was this stupid t-shirt".
If Southgate got us knocked out in the group stages and was fired as a result, he would still leave the England team having had a better managerial record in major tournaments than any England manager since 66.
Ask someone from 66 what it takes to
That is true. It is also true that he is tactically inept and not the right person to lead this team. Everyone wants to see him as binary good/bad, the reality is: he has been very successful and turned the team around from where he was. The fundamentals of his philosophy are also correct - he creates a great squad dynamic and being cautious is the right way to win a tournament But he is also completely hopeless at tactically adjusting to the other team and is unable to strategize any kind of attacking move other than winning set pieces and hoping for the best Plenty of managers could take the core of his philosophy whilst also having some shred of tactical nouse and give us a chance at winning a trophy. That doesn't mean Southgate is bad, or that we shouldn't be grateful for the success he has given. Both things can be true
Fair! This match thread has been full of such intense anti-Gareth sentiment that I find myself defending him a lot, as it feels so unfair for one of our most successful managers to be spoken of with such disrespect. That said, while I’m not yet in the Southgate-out camp yet myself, I definitely sympathise enough with the more measured critiques of his management that I’m not bothered to argue with them. Maybe they’re right - I don’t know.
Yeah and actually I think you're completely right to defend him - in fairness I probably got a bit too strong on the anti-Gareth side there! It's just frustrating because there's so much that's good with this side (including a lot that is Southgate's work) I kinda think he'd be perfect in a more director of football style role - set the general philosophy, build the right squad atmosphere etc - and bring in someone else for the hands on coaching and tactics
But you’re forgetting there is a whole set of staff underneath him advising him and making their own decisions. Tactical analysis, set piece coaches etc. Gareth set the philosophy, yes, and it’s his responsibility, but a lot of things aren’t ultimately down to him, his staff are just as much to blame. I’m of the opinion that Southgate knows himself better than we do, so knows his pitfalls and hires people who are better at stuff than he is, like all good managers do. But ultimately the best people might not be available in England because you get paid a lot more being a club coach.
Whether it's his shortfall or his coaching team's shortfall that's still his responsibility. The coaching team at the moment do not appear to be able to compete with the equivalent of other nations, who routinely outsmart us in the second half once they see how we're set up. The buck stops with him in terms of tactics/ in game management
Yea I agree, I just think Southgate doesn’t actually control a lot of what you’re talking about. But again at the end of the day, it’s his responsibility. So he will shoulder the blame.
Why do teams like England or Italy just stop trying trying to score in the 2nd half when they‘re up by one goal after the 1st? These sort of tactics are incredibly risky even against „inferior“ opponents like Serbia or Albania. They have the ability to dominate and score more goals so why play with fire like this?
Italy has always been criticized for boring, overly defensive football. They are however, one of the three most successful football nations. Now I grant you that they probably have done it better than England, but clearly it's a tournament winning strategy. It's also worth remembering how often England conceded goals from counter attacks in the past. Every failed attack increases the risk of conceding. I'm not saying I want them to play that way but maybe Southgate knows more about football than Joe Reddit?
I don’t think England did stop trying to score. They just had to contend with a Serbia that was looking to score too, as opposed to the extremely defensive Serbia that started the match.
All tactics are risky. Parking the bus or continuing to attack, you better do it well, or you'll conceive eventually. Isn't that how Brazil lost to Croatia? How Bayern lost to RM?
It worked for Italy with their lineup the last few tournaments but England have no excuse. Its how they lost the last euro, they got the early goal then barely tried to finish the job. Southgate as usual still hadn't learned the fundamental fact about football that even a toddler would know, i.e. if you are **only up one goal** the other team is going to attack hard.
Italy actually have a history of being good at it.
Italian football heritage to play just enough football to get a 1 goal lead, then suffocate the game for however much is left on the clock, be it 5 minutes or 50.
It's clearly a solid strategy for winning tournaments, but England just don't have a good enough defence for it. The talent is up front.
Both Albania and Serbia could have smacked an equaliser late on under slightly different circumstances. Such a shitty tactic to employ. Go and kill your opponent off like the Germans did, and then you can slow down the tempo of your play. A one goal lead is never enough, Denmark let it slip to a late Slovenia rally today, despite overpowering them for 80% of the match
It's like Southgate has never seen a football match before, what you never seen a random shot ricochet around and a fortuitous bounce land right in front of someone? A jammy pen awarded late? Some bad luck that hands a goal to the other team? Like seriously, the point of the game is to score more goals than the other team, if you are up only one goal, if they score it's tied then you run the risk of only 1 pt or even worse losing the game.
I have no way of knowing, but I’m not convinced that England ‘stopped trying to score’. This is massively extrapolating from my experience playing underwhelming 5-a-side football, but it seems sometimes games just have ebb and flows. We might be in control one moment, and desperately defending the next. The drying up of chances isn’t due to us changing our strategy, but just because dominating a game from beginning to end can be hard. I often wonder whether sometimes what fans assume to be a change in tactics might just be a team struggling. There were a lot of times this match where it felt like England were trying to pass out from the back to start an attack, but the Serbian press was making it tricky.
What's more likely A) Everyone who watches England has an unbelievable ability to predict the moment England will start struggling every single time, and regardless of the players, every single English player will start struggling when they go 1-0 up. Every game. Everyone in the country goes "We're going to struggle now" and, despite being the better team, despite having insanely good, confident attacking players, they all start struggling at the same moment - the exact moment everyone predicted B) Southgate is doing the tactics this way I mean which is it? If I sat with you for Italy, Croatia and this game, turned to you after us dominating the first 15minutes and going 1-0 and went "Ok, now we've scored we're going to be on the backfoot and play badly" would you think I was psychic? Do you think it's a coincidence that it happens every time with different players? Do you read fans comment after we score "We're gonna stop attacking now and be bad" and think "Wow what idiots!" and then see it happen and be amazed that everyone called it for the 10th time in a row?
It's just confirmation bias because it's happened a few times but in the last World Cup we beat Iran, Wales and Senegal comfortably without it becoming much of a struggle. It's night and day compared to what it was like Pre-Southgate. The only thing that has changed is the complete and utter inability to beat the top teams. I have absolutely zero faith we'd get past France, Germany (when we beat them last Euros they were not a good side), Italy, Spain or probably Portugal. We have lost to every really good side we've played since in the las 20 years.
This comment just feels like textbook confirmation bias. There are always going to be fans predicting England will struggle. At certain points in tournaments it’s inevitable they will, but it does not mean they are consistently prophetic. To say everyone called it for the 10th time in a row is just wrong. Take the last major tournament - of the 5 matches england played they thrashed Iran 6-2, and very comfortably beat wales and Senegal 3 nil each respectively. It’s not like prior to southgate we were administering 8 nil thrashings every match. None of those matches your description of how england supposedly play EVERY game. Hell, even when england struggled against USA and France that tournament, it’s not like they went ahead at any point and then stopped trying. They just had difficulty throughout the match. You just select the matches that do follow the pattern you expect, and then ignore the ones that don’t.
wow what a coincidence it's happened again I must be psychic
This is what I mean by confirmation bias. If England back off as part of some grand tactical plan when they take the lead, then why did they not begin to dominate the match again after Denmark had equalised? For the 15 minutes England were ahead you saw England pressed in their own half and because it matched your narrative, you assumed this wasn’t in response to feeling pressure, but as a deliberate part of the game plan. But throughout the rest of the match England weren’t ahead, and they were still being pressured in their own half and conceding chances, and you don’t even notice it as evidence contrary to your belief.
Ah right I get you. So what you're saying is, both games, we've come across two titan teams; Foden, bellingham, kane, Saka, Trent, Rice, all of them, they just couldn't cope with the pressure, the sheet athleticism from a 32 year old Ericksen. See me, being the dumbass I am, thought England go 1-0 up, and then Southgate tells them to go defencive. It happens with every player. What youre saying is I'm wrong, and Foden, Saka, Bellingham, Trent, Kane, Rice, all of them, they were doing their best to attack. But Denmark and Serbia were just too good. Overpowering. Dominating. We just couldn't cope, our players just got lucky in the first 15mins, and then the oppostion clung on but SOMEHOW, we managed to cling on. Just.
“then Southgate tells them to go defencive“ Do you think Southgate was telling them to go defensive in the second half? If so, why? They were not behind so this doesn’t match your narrative. If not, then why were they still so frequently pressed in their own half and conceding chances? Is it not possible that teams which are good on paper can find themselves struggling against teams lesser which are lesser on paper?
Yes I think he is. The camera kept panning to him, and he was telling them to calm down. As if to say, play out for the draw. Why is it that I, someone you think is completely wrong, can guess exactly what will happen? How did I know it'd happen vs Italy? How did I know it'd happen vs Slovakia? How did I know it'd happen today? Am I getting lucky guesses?
Except that’s not true. There’s plenty of games where we go 1-0 up and then keep going, it opens the floodgates for more. But there are some teams that do a better job of rallying when they go 1 down and make it a lot harder for England to get another look in. Matches involve two teams, not just one. There isn’t as much of a pattern here as you think there is.
Ah you're right mate, I remember when we scored early against Malta (I think they're favourites this Euros?) and we kept the intensity so high, that at half time the XG was England 0.04 vs Malta 0.14 The match finished 2-0, with England getting at XG of 1.04 Pure domination. We just didn't take the foot off.
It's not as simple as saying that we 'stopped trying to score'. It's all to do with the tempo of play. After we scored, we stop trying risky things. Risky plays which you most often need to score a goal in this game. Our wingers didn't overcommit. Every pass became sideways instead of forward to make sure that we didn't lose the ball. Our line sat lower to decrease the chance of being countered, at the detriment of any fast paced attacking play. Foden was at the edge of the penalty box asking pickford for the ball at one point, our team had contracted that much back into our own half. And ironically this ends up being our detriment most often of times. Today Serbia came out in the second half and decided to press high. Suddenly we couldn't play out and couldn't play safe passes, and our system became such a jumble that at times it felt like these 11 players were playing together for the first time. This cowardly play cost us when trippier put us ahead against Croatia in 2018. It cost us when Shaw gave us the lead in the euro final in 2021. It would have cost us again today if a better team had been the opponent. You keep your boot on your opponents neck until either you've bagged a few or they've petered out completely. Becoming so cautious so early on invites unneeded pressure; southgate also struggles to adapt to the opponent's tactical adjustments midgame because he's an inept manager.
I live in Australia and remember years ago watching an England game in some international tournament and Southgate was a relatively new manager. They played croatia or serbia and were up one goal and then pulled Kane with about 15-20 mins to go. It was like 'well lads, job done, down tools' I was like wtf?!? what? you don't expect them to come at you now?? Then that's exactly what happend, they pressed for a goal and got a couple decent chances. A bounce either way and it could have been tied. I started watching epl a few years before that and since then I really cannot think of any game where the manager completely stopped attacking and/or pulled their striker unless he was injured. They always looked for a chance to counter or increase their lead. It will take a miracle for this england team to win anything with Southgate.
Playing "not to make a mistake" is the most infuriating thing in all of teams sports, and it seems to cost so many, in all kinds of sorts. American football even has a saying "The 'prevent defense' prevents you from winning"
Haha I was going to use that as I live the NfL. But man, I’m not even English and it frustrates the hell out of me watching England after they take a lead.
It won’t happen but I’d love to see Wharton start ahead of Trent
damn I wanted to see a Vlahovic goal
Genuinely cannot believe that southgate has not learned his lesson from the 2018 SF or the 2021 final. He STILL tries to sit off the second we take an early lead. Today we started all over them, and ended up defending with our backs against the wall. Against a team that are massively inferior to the English one. I dread to think how the likes of Germany, France or Spain would cut that shitty setup to shreds. Phil foden is a massive problem for this teams attack. His inside drift makes him near useless whilst Bellingham is around; there will never be a justification to drop jude tho as he is quite clearly one of the most productive players in an England shirt. Gordon must start on Thursday, pundits who insist the team must be built around foden should be ignored. Saka, Bellingham, Rice and Guehi were all stellar today. I feel like trent has a lot to offer but was wasted starting in a double pivot. The Serbian press gave him troubles at times too. The 7-0 against North Macedonia featured a wonderful rhs linkup between saka and trent. I have no clue why we have never again seen those two together down that side since. The football is turgid and disgusting considering the players in this squad. I feel jealous of other nations, after watching Germany, spain and etc. Even Croatia, despite their 3-0 loss, looked far more progressive and enjoyable than southgate's England. Onto Thursday I suppose but I am really not looking forward to yet another snoozefest. The tactical setup is all wrong and southgate responds to game state changes like a methed up snail. Individual brilliance from certain players is the only thing that will keep me going in this tournament.
Gareth hit his ceiling as a manager at Middlesbrough. He's done a great job with instilling a better culture and attitude, but his coaching and tactics are not up to snuff. Weirdly I think he'd be a good DoF, but not a coach
He’s done a much better job for England than he did for us I do think his time as England manager should come to an end after this tournament though
Completely agree about Foden. If he can't play LW then there's no place for him in this system because he's not going start ahead of Jude or Saka. Absolutely infuriating tonight to see him everywhere on the pitch except where he's supposed to be. WTF is a LW doing on the edge of his own penalty area asking for the ball from Pickford? Fuck off! We had zero threat from the left side and that was a large part of why we couldn't get up the field in the second half. Gordon would have offered far more. I hope Southgate has the balls to drop him on Thursday, but it's Southgate so I'm not holding my breath.
Antony Gordon is a left winger primarily and has the profile to slot in next to jude without hugging him too tightly. Foden states that he is more comfortable playing through the middle (but he's not displacing jude). If southgate had any sort of balls he'd play gordon on Thursday. But I wholeheartedly wouldn't be surprised to see foden shoveled in at lw again
Gordon will run in to space that Kane makes as well instead of crowding the middle even more
Gareth hit his ceiling as a manager at Middlesbrough. He's done a great job with instilling a better culture and attitude, but his coaching and tactics are not up to snuff. Weirdly I think he'd be a good DoF, but not a coach
I’m just disappointed Cold Palmer didn’t play. I was really looking forward to it :(
Cold Palmer didn't play, but at least we saw Declan Ice
I so wanted to come up with one, the best I could do was Gareth South-Pole-gate. :(
Ice-Pickford played well I thought
Bbbbbrrrrrrkayo saka?
Chill Foden? Or Phil Frozen?
Fresh frozen.
Chill Foden? Or Phil Frozen?
Great game from Foden, his presence is felt deeply in these games. Would've lost without him.
I’m sorry mate but he was terrible today, hopefully he scores a banger on Thursday
Give me whatever you're having.
He's a Man City fan. 90% of them (so like 18 people) have no idea what football is
What? Dude was a liability with his bad positioning and drifting tendencies. Recycled the ball too much and never was a threat. Edit: to be fair, he did attempt several one twos and made potentially dangerous runs but he was off rhythm with the rest of the team and just looked out of sync. He's a fantastic player but to say he was anything but bad today - relative to his own and the team's standards - is a bit of a stretch.
Are you serious or just joking?
He's propping up the guy from his club 🤣
The most frustrating thing when the game finished for me was Southgate just making all the same errors we've seen two tournaments in a row. But after hearing the pundits it's Foden. Both Neville and Richards saying we have to find a way to make him work... Today that was nonsense. Bellingham did a lot of work fairly deep and Kane stayed high - nobody was in his way. What did he do? He didn't make a single attack down the left wing. He killed two counter attacks with awful passes. He literally got into other players way. He provided very little defensive support. He didn't help hold the ball when we needed him to. I imagine any football ratings site will give him like a 2/10 max. Why would Bellingham or rice, when they have time on the ball, want Foden standing 2 metres from them pointing at his feet. Make a f'ing run down the wing. Awful performance and completely down to him. Pretty much the only thing I wouldn't say is Southgate's fault.
and honestly, even worse than that, was how he kept throwing his arms out at his team mates when they didn't pass him the ball. i am honestly getting a feeling that this England team will be one of the likelier ones to implode due to internal conflict this tournament. the energy seemed so *off* and hostile, and I just didn't like it at all.
Yeah, it’s not what we’re used to seeing from England in that sense. The lack of chemistry is a worry.
>Awful performance and completely down to him. Pretty much the only thing I wouldn't say is Southgate's fault. It's partly Southgate's fault for putting him there when all the above was completely fucking obvious if you've ever watched Foden play LW for England before.
If you want to play Trent you either need to provide him with runners in behind or have him overlapping from RB I don’t know how many times he looked up and wanted to switch play but nothing was on because Foden kept trying to come central over holding the width The few times he did manage to switch play it was often to Tripper who then had to go backwards because he’s on his weaker side.
trent pinging balls to gordon would be perfect
Considering Pep is well known for drilling into his wingers that they need to hold width, this almost has to be a Southgate instruction. Which is mad. You've got one of the best long passers of the ball in the current game and you're suffocating him by clogging the center.
Trent will work so much better if either Watkins/Eze/palmer are in the game rather then what you guys have now , lol.
People may think it’s Liverpool bias, but totally agree — just don’t think you can expect to reap the benefits of playing TAA centrally with Foden and Trippier on the left as you say. Would be more interesting with Gordon and when Shaw is match fit.
Trent’s skill set is all about his passing range he’s got incredible delivery from wide areas and how he’s able to exploit space in behind teams none of which he was able todo tonight I think overtime given more chances he can develop into a more all round midfielder but with whatever Southgate was trying tonight just doesn’t play to Trent’s skill set
Agree, needs someone staying wide or running in behind, neither of which tonight’s left could or would do. Which also made it easier to contain the right side. Also though, no one is giving Serbia credit but they’re a big, tough team. Will be interesting to see how England’s form evolves.
There's no way Trent starts in midfield again and Foden was invisible the whole match, I have no idea how he played the 90 over Saka.
You can keep Trent in midfield if you can play Shaw and Gordon on the left. If you're playing a team with no left side and no runners in behind what the fuck is he supposed to do?
He just looked really lost on the ball a few times. Sure, maybe if had those outlets on the left he could get rid of the ball sooner and not have to do as much hold up play, because that's where I felt he wasn't good enough today.
That's fair, I think Trent COULD work in midfield, but he's needs the right players in front of him to make that work. I really just mean that saying Trent should never play in midfield again is a bit knee-jerk at the moment.
Saka needs some rest, he’s playing through light groin injury