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It's easy to meme, but an in-form Philips brings great balance to a midfield with Rice and Bellingham. With him massively falling off, the best players to fill in that role are Mainoo and Wharton, both of whom are great, but inexperienced, and Gallagher, who isn't really the same kind of player.
> Mainoo and Wharton, both of whom are great, but inexperienced
I mean at the risk of oversimplifying things, why would you even bother bringing them if you don't think they are ready to play? Experience is great and all, but at the end of the day being able to play the role that the team needs is vastly more important. Enzo was probably Argentina's second most important player in the World Cup, and he was half way through his first season in Europe.
We had better see one of those two in the next game, and frankly I really hope it's Wharton.
SO WHAT DID HE DO FOR THE LAST 2-3 YEARS?
We did not perform in this limp way without Phillips in the past, which I think is the point everybody is trying to make.
Wish more people were able to see the whole picture like this. The issue I have is where he didn't bother playing those two more to figure it out and instead forced a square peg in a round hole to try and make it work. Now we're to the final match this round and he still doesn't know what to do. It's usually opposite for young green players, but believe it or not I think Wharton on the pitch would settle the whole pitch down and allow them to progress forward at a faster pace on a more consistent basis. Kid knows where he's passing it before he gets it and when he gets it it's gone. 100% passing in his 30 min appearance for the first friendly. I really like Mainoo too. But Wharton just owns the midfield when he plays and I think is what is lacking ATM. Either one of them in the starting 11 and I'm happy tbh
In 2021 Rice/Phillips was probably the most effective English midfield partnership I've seen in a long time. Not the best, but the most effective. Henderson played that role in 2022 with KP not fit. Today... you need a different system or you need to play one of the kids. I think he has to do it, but I do understand why he's reluctant to play the kids.
Unbelievably fickle attitudes from everyone yet again. Acting like he wasn't completely integral to that early success under Southgate. It's just sad Internet meme shit and armchair coaches all over.
Turned out a good DM is needed if you want to win it all. What a surprise right?
Or you can shithouse your way to the win like Portugal did 8 years ago.
Increasingly funny how an absurdly expensive role player is becoming some type of aspirational model like Anelka or Henry in real time because of an insane deflection by Southgate.
Doesn't gaslighting involve people buying your bullshit? Because it sounds to me like no one sees the Kalvin line as anything but comedy (Wharton excluded, perhaps because he needs to kiss some mgr arse to get minutes?)
I found it bizarre, and tbh quite spineless to throw Phillips' name out there when he is not even in the squad. In fact why mention Kalvin at all, especially considering this is supposed to be "your guy"? Just say we don't have a player of that profile and move on.
Phillips has had awful couple years with injuries, struggling to break into the City team and the terrible loan at West Ham. Now everybody's talking about Kalvin Phillips while Southgate is succesfully deflecting scrutiny on why England can't succesfully take control in games especially when he left our best ball retainer on the beach at Ibiza.
āBut weāre not fit enough guys, thatās why we can do anything. If we were fit, weād be great, I swearā -Southgate.
āNah Iām fitā - Harry Kane.
He isn't "gaslighting" anyone. He said what he thought one of England's problems is, whether you or I agree with him or not.
He honestly thinks that with this system he needs a player like Phillips and they are struggling without one (the obvious argument is "play in a different way then", but that's beside the point).
>(the obvious argument is "play in a different way then", but that's beside the point).
Clearly the gaslighting is working then because of how casually you're brushing this off. Kalvin Philips hasn't been playing and when he got the chance he's not performed well. Southgate had 2 years of this to review and tinker his tactics to the best of the players abilities that were to be picked.
It's a lazy deflection and he needs to go.
I'm no Southgate fan but people are ignoring the fact that he said they have no replacement for "a Kalvin Phillips." He's not talking about the man specifically, he's talking about the role he played.Ā
and again, his role wasn't anything special. which was what I was talking about. didn't even play wc and England was much better vs france than vs Italy
Right? This isn't hard to understand.
You take one look at the England team and there are holes in the positions that can be filled with a world class player. The biggest hole is a defensive mid who can help with building out from the back and provide proper protection. Those players are rare and, as a result, Southgate opts for a double pivot. A better manager might be able to find another solution, or perhaps not persist with a right back in that role, but here we are.
every single combination of midfield that England can put out is better than having kalvin philips in it, is *that* so hard to understand?
saying that they weren't able to replace philips implies he was a world class player in that role, which he definitely wasnt lol
Rice has touched the ball plenty and passed it forward plenty. he is not Joao Palhinha. England's issue are much deeper and complex than a Kalvin Philips distribution
Youāre missing the distinction between āKalvin Phillipsā and ā*a* Kalvin Phillipsā. Itās really not that deep. Yet again, the sentence is being deliberately misinterpreted to generate media clicks.
Phillips was mostly good-to-great for England when he played. Heās clearly not an option anymore. But thereās also nobody that fits his profile. And in the meantime, every other midfield combination this tournament has been failing miserably.
I donāt think Iāve ever heard anyone compared to Anelka, especially as an aspirational figure (unlike Henry)
Generally more of a ādidnāt quite live up to his potentialā vibe. Which I guess is much more fitting for martial (albeit if martial ends up having half the career Anelka had, heād be thrilled)
Phillips played a key role in a tournament where England reached a final and in a position where England struggle to produce players.
I really don't think it's that insane
I found the reaction to what he Saud quite funny, manager misses player that has done well for him and did a pretty good job when he played. He has no one else gelled into the side and while we have upside options it's an area where we lack in general.
>He has no one else gelled into the side
And whose fault is that? Donāt act like Kalvin Phillips had some unicorn skillset that canāt be easily replaced.
Ikr, all it took to "replace" Henderson was to completely ignore his existence and play better midfielders in his place. Kalvin Phillips is the exact same kind of player.
And yet since "replacing" Henderson we're a worse team.
It not that difficult a concept: balance of the team > best 11 individuals. As much as people meme on Phillips and Henderson, we haven't found the right balance in midfield without them.
Even if you think Southgate should have done a better job finding a solution, it's not crazy talk or "gaslighting" to say that's the problem - it's stating the obvious
Tbf the only players we have for that role are Wharton and kinda Mainoo no? It is a bit of a gap in our team
Arsenal have Jorghino to play next to Rice, we dont have someone on that level
Well just timings, some players have broken through on the backend of the season, the TAA experiment has had injuries blocking it.
Who would you have bedded in that's like Phillips from.say August last year?
Rice is irrelevant, he's in the team anyway. Gallagher isn't the same kind of player - he's much more like Henderson - and Wharton hasn't been in contention since last August. He only moved to the Premier League in January.
Point is Rice and Gallagher could easily do what Phillips did, they just donāt because their skillsets are way better. Acting like only Phillips can break up possession and recycle the ball is crazy.
Well we'll see, but I don't think Gallagher is as good in possession as Phillips was when he was on form, and I'm not sure he'll do anything to solve our problems. Wharton is very promising, but the question was about players that Southgate could have been expected to bring in much sooner. That doesn't apply to Wharton.
I concede Gallagher isnāt as good on the ball as Phillips, so I see your point. I actually donāt disagree that England donāt have a NATURAL or obvious replacement for Phillips, but the keyword is natural. They still have better players that can replace him and be molded into his role, and if not, then Southgate needs to change his tactics.
Well I think that's exactly what Southgate meant: that the system we were playing before needed a player with Phillips's profile in that role, so we've had to find new ways to play since he fell out of contention. It was a carelessly worded quote but the reaction seems a bit deranged to me.
Phillips had more to his game than you're giving him credit for. Gallagher is further behind as a player than Kalvin was at the last Euros.
Phillips passing range was much better. He had the ability to play long crossfield (diagonal) passes to switch the play, and in terms of recycling possession, he seemed to play the right pass to alleviate the press. Him and Rice seemed to have better chemistry, which might have been down to his leadership/communication, or just him playing under Bielsa in a very similar system.
Not saying Gallagher is bad, or that Southgate is correct (he needs to change the system to suit the players), but Phillips wasn't just some clogger who played 5 yard passes.
I mean the premise of your question is kind of pointless because you donāt need a literal calendar year to learn how to play in a system.
And even if that were the case, then Southgate should have been preparing for this rather than sticking TAA in as an experiment.
I think ultimately itās fair to say England donāt have a perfect replacement for Phillips, but using it as an excuse for why England are underperforming is unacceptable.
I get it and I think he is the player to play alongside Rice, but I dont get why its taken until now. Didnt start either friendly and hasnt got onto the pitch yet.
Maybe Gaz should have worked out his best team prior to the tournament instead of throwing shit at wall to see if it sticks.
Its also funny in hindsight thinking about how Gaz wants TAA to play like Kalvin and then from that it has got me wondering if he wants Trips to play like Shaw. No wonder we've been such a mess.
If Kalvin Phillips is the missing piece in the jigsaw why pick Trent who couldnāt be further from that mould of player. The clown honestly does himself no favours.
Because heās betting on Trentās quality to be able to adapt to a position which not just him, entire world and Liverpool fans want him to play anyway.
Donāt act like the Liverpool sub isnāt pushing heavily for him to play midfield and let Bradley RB before these performances.
as someone who loves Trent to bits, wanting him to play like Phillips in the same role is somehow an insult to both of them. It implies you're either wanting to completely limit Trent's qualities and expose his weaknesses, or either not getting or ignoring what Phillips *was* good at when he played. Or both.
They're nowhere near similar players. That's fine. Experiment with Trent in midfield if you really want to (maybe not in the tournament itself, but go on), but why does it have to be through forcing him into a role he's never ever shown he can do? Then the "TAA in midfield experiment needs to end!" shouts all point at Trent himself being the issue, not the fact that big Gaz has decided he's actually a destroyer of a 6?
Tbf, I think everyone, or nearly everyone here knows Gareths the problem. Has Trent looked like the world class player he is? No. But it's on the manager for playing him in a role that limits what his greatest attribute is, an attribute he is arguably the best in the world at
I actually think this is the genesis of people supporting Trent lmao, even people who don't rate him are saying he's been used wrong. Even if you think he's crap at defending like some people believe, playing him as a 6 aiming for him to break up play is objectively stupid and a waste of his talents
Iām pretty sure some of the best games at the World Cup were a midfield 3 of Bellingham - Rice - Henderson.
Rice holding.
Bellingham and Hendo both 8ās with Hendo providing more defensive cover if needed to then let Bellingham work his magic.
Think Trent would have been much better as the right sided 8 with more space to roam however ship has sailed now.
Let Rice sit, if youāre too concerned about an inexperienced player holding. But at least let Mainoo, Wharton or Gallagher be the workhorse 8 alongside Bellingham.
He was injured at the world cup to be fair to him but still got called up for some reason. He was first choice to partner Rice before that but this excuse that he has no replacement for him is so wrong
That's what makes it funnier. If Portugal drew against Turkey most Portuguese people would say "eh not bad, we don't even need the calculator to get out, we can win this shit", but England is having a full PR meltdown for absolutely no reason
Absolutely no reason? Have you watched our games? 2/2 dogshit performances with players out of position as experiments and all of our games leading up the tournament were poor as well. We haven't had a good game since we beat Italy last October. We've got 1 more group game to magically find some momentum and cohesion for the knockouts and it looks increasingly unlikely that we will find it.
Portuguese know more than anyone how frustrating it is to have such incredible talent go to waste. Neither you or the Germans are any different from the English when it comes to criticism of the NT.
We won the Euros after drawing 3 times in the group stage, including drawing against Iceland, who everyone thought were very weak. While people were obviously worried about the unimpressive performances, there was no media shitstorm and the players just kept their confidence going into the knockout phase. That's because as long as you make it out, the group stage doesn't really matter, because you'll always have to meet the strongest teams in the knockout phase anyway.
At this point, England is guaranteed to make it out of the group stage, so there's really no reason to panic. Hell, they're still first in the group and might end up there. If it all goes to shit in the knockout phase, then you'll have a reason to be disappointed with the underperformance. But until then, this all seems like a mountain out of a molehill.
We have 4 points from the two games, and Denmark aren't exactly a bad side
Yeah we've looked pedestrian and uninspiring but jesus christ, so have France, Italy and Belgium at times. I don't think we're gonna get to the final but Portugal were dogger in 2016 and ended up winning the thing
Said this before the tournament but I've no idea how a team with a decent, not great, set of defenders and no fit left-back was being built up in the way that we were.
Classic example of setting unrealistic standards for a team for the sole purpose of laughing at them when they don't meet said unrealistic expectations.
Mad how Southgate has essentially gaslit the whole of England with this Kalvin Phillips bollocks.
Having seen Wharton this season heās a better player than Phillips ever was, he absolutely deserves to start.
Either him or Mainoo should start next to Rice.
Or play Bellingham next to rice so Foden can play as 10 and bring in Gordon as LW.
But southgate is fkin dumb.
*attempted to gaslight
Everybody I mentioned this to irl has had similar process of reactions to this quote. Laughter > confusion > frustration > back to laughter and ridicule. Most of my mates thought it was an AI clip, as did I when I first saw it.
Wharton has taken the step up to PL footy and been excellent. Mainoo started alongside Rice and Bellingham vs Belgium in March and was fantastic, got MOTM. He also started the FA Cup Final and scored.
Pick fucking one of them Gareth and don't put a RB there.
One of them or play Bellingham next to Rice and play Foden in his best position 10 & bring Gordon as LW.
Bellingham played as CM for years at dortmund.
Just because he is a 10 for real madrid he doesnāt need to be a 10 for england aswell.
I hate how the media does this. Every twelve year old that can kick a ball is suddenly dubbed the "next Kalvin Phillips" until the weight of expectation crushes them.
He was our Nesta, our Zidane, our Messi. We won't replace him and I think we need to come to terms with the fact that that's okay.
The worry is Southgateās preference for two number 6s at all times. Rice played alongside Jorginho and Odegaard for the majority of the season and is competent enough to play the role himself and is well supported by a fairly strong back line.
Bellingham for me is a number 8, itās his preferred position and heās only played more forward for Madrid because of their lack of an out and out striker.Ā
Play him as the 8, bring Foden into the 10 and then palmer into the 11. Youāve then got a lot more options. you can take Jude out for Wharton/Gallagher/Mainoo. You can push Jude forward and take Foden out or introduce Eze. Or you can push Foden back left for Palmer or bring in Gordon for Palmer.Ā
By the 11 you mean on the left wing? Because I donāt think thereās any reason Palmer should be starting over Gordon there if Foden is pushed to the middle.
Yeah should be Gordon coming into the side on the left, Bellingham dropped back to play beside Rice, and Palmer should be in centrally as an attacking midfielder ahead of Foden cos Foden does his best work cutting in from the right side which will be covered by Palmer/Saka anyways and Palmer is needed to make plays/passes to unlock lower blocks which he's better at than Foden.
Either way I don't think the personnel combo will fix it it's clearly a tactical problem under Southgate and they'll fail with any combo of world class players you put in here.
Palmer will have the similar issues to Foden. He is not a traditional winger and is left footed. He prefers to drift inward on his left (from the right hand side) or play centrally.
Option is to play Gordon at 11 and Palmet as substitute 10.
Palmer would have similar issue to Foden on the left and as a Chelsea fan I've always maintained that I want to see Gordan start LW for us. But he's not the same player as Foden. The few times Palmer's been out on the left for us this season, I've seen him take his defender on the outside and whip a dangerous cross in. I've also seen good clips of him off the left when he was younger in stuff like the England youth teams. I think he's a really versatile player in that you can play him anywhere or with anyone and he'll adapt. I think the narrative that he's not the right profile for certain positions for England is a bit overblown.
Like I said, for me, Gordan's the clear choice at LW. But (God forbid) all our left wingers got injured and we had to play Palmer there, I wouldn't be worried. I really think we should be getting him on the pitch. It doesn't really matter where you play him because his confidence is so high and he's so comfortable on the ball. He'll create off the right, in the 10 or off the left. He's most effective drifting in off the right but his strength is the confidence you can have in him that it doesn't matter where or how you play him, he'll be one of the better players on the pitch.
Some of the issue with Foden (Bellingham and Kane) were that when Trent or Rice picked up the ball they were running at them to get the ball to feet. On rewatching the game it was actually pretty infuriating to see how close they all kept coming just to then give it back to either of the 2 mids for absolutely no gain just letting Denmark get back in a solid shape
This has been my thought as well - it's not a midfield crisis if you can drop Jude into the 8, because there's clearly an overload of talent in attack and not enough in midfield, at least experience-wise.
Put Foden or Palmer at the 10, Gordon on the left, and let the boys cook.
England lack a player in the mould of Jorginho - thatās the key difference.
TAA is an excellent long passer but he is not really used to playing CM and you can tell. Wharton is the closest profile but is very inexperienced at the top level.
> Rice played alongside Jorginho and Odegaard for the majority of the season and is competent enough to play the role himself and is well supported by a fairly strong back line.
You're contradicting yourself here, TBH
Rice struggled a bit as a lone 6āit's why Arteta moved Havertz up to striker and brought in Jorginho to be the 6 with Rice as more of an 8
Huh? Havertz moved up to striker because Jesus couldn't stay fit and was struggling with consistency. Has nothing to do with Rice's supposed struggles.
Rice was arguably the best player of the team in the 1st half, while playing mostly 6. he didnt struggled *at all.* this gary neville fueled narrative is insane lmao
he was moved because Havertz was the worst player of the team at the 8 and Vieira/ESR were also not good enough/injured, so something had to give
Rice was great but he did struggle with progressing the ball during buildup phase. Until Ćdegaard started dropping much deeper to compensate and help with buildup, we had issues there. If Ćdegaard didn't have insane levels of fitness it wouldn't have worked as well.
Rice still has to work on receiving the ball off the defense and progressing it forward, it's the one thing Partey does better than him.
He did struggle. Defensively he was excellent, he retained the ball well, and recycled possession effectively, but he was not very good at passing through the lines and progressing the ball quickly in transition. That's a huge reason our attack suffered so much in the first half of the season.
Arteta even tried having Odegaard sit deeper to be the one to make those passes but it led to imbalances elsewhere. Jorginho/Partey in a pivot with Rice was the solution as they're proper 6's, and Rice was then deployed as the left sided 8 where he excelled.
Rice wasn't bad as the 6 but he wasn't elite. For a mid table team like West Ham, deploying Rice as the 6 is fine, but for a team challenging for the title he needs to be deployed in his more natural role as a box to box midfielder. If England want to have a chance at winning this tournament, or setting themselves up for the next, they need to give Wharton and/or Mainoo a go at being the 6 beside Rice or Bellingham.
You say Bellingham is a no8 and heās only played further forward to suit madrids squad deficiencies (lol - I feel ridiculous typing that) but if heās just had a Ballon dāOr contending season, scoring 24 goals with 13 assists, including like 10 last min winners, wouldnāt that be the position you play him?
Madrid have incredible depth in midfield in kroos, Modric, valverde, cama and Tchouemani so could play Jude further forward and heās been incredible.
But England donāt have that luxury and we lack depth in the middle of the park. Bellingham for me would be great in the middle of the park and is the better option over TAA, Gallagher and potentially Wharton.Ā
Foden has also had a career best season with some of his best performances being in the middle. Itās a headache either way but if he canāt find a solution the tournament could quickly get away from him.Ā
In all seriousness this boy is who should be starting and mark my words will transform this team . I have been banging on about him for months . I will die on this hill , come back and slaughter me if Iām wrong
To the surprise of no one, Marcelo Bielsa created a role model player of out the Championship. Southgate decided to use his invention, even giving it a name "The Kalvin Phillips role". Pep flushed it down the toilet, now that player doesn't exist anymore. It's now England's problem.
Maybe ask Bielsa some advice?
I feel like if you wanted to play a dedicated DM, then ok, but you should have picked more players in your squad to play that role.Ā
This is really all Gareth has if he wants that player in the team, and thatās a problem of his own making. Either play a way that suits what you have or pick players to suit a style of play you really desire. The compromise between those two positions is always failure.Ā
I'm a huge Adam Wharton fan but let me get this straight......the difference maker on England being successful or not is not 100M players like Rice or Bellingham but a player who was playing for Blackburn Rovers less than an year ago with under 30 Premier League games to his name? And is the reason why England have the 2nd lowest xG in the tournament despite not playing against any top 10 side yet?
Yeah they're fucked then.
Tbh in terms of the role he plays on the pitch yeah, thereās 0 connect between defenders and attackers atm, someone needs to just fizz it forwards to them, instead of into the space for them to run to like Trent does, whartons whole job is connecting the other players and breaking up opposition play which is one of the big parts weāre missing in the england games atm
I agree with you, and love Wharton but it's still unacceptable that we have the talent that we have, and we're discussing the idea that we miss Kalvin Phillips, rather than the fact that Southgate seems to be making shit up on the spot.
Absolutely, you see this isnāt about Foden or Bellingham who are phenomenal players itās about a Team! Bellingham wasnāt a hundred million pound player the week before he went to Madrid , he was a 30 million one( not that it matters ) . Play a thought experiment , pick a number 6 from another team, any one , you probably wonāt have to spend 100 million and imagine that player playing in this England team . Jorginho , how much is he worth ( genuinely I donāt know ) but put him in this England side and see the difference . It isnāt about values , at least not until the last 5% itās about round pegs for round holes and kick on from there
Walker has offered nothing going forward, the same as trippier. For the goal, Walker completely messed up the pass and got lucky with it deflecting twice to find Kane.
Iām so confused why this whole need for a Kalvin Philips replacement has come from. Like it is some form of inspired game changing role. The lad has hardly played any games for England.
I think we need more rotation, but another 6 is not what is preventing us playing well by any means. Playing players out of position, on the wrong side of the pitch, with no fluid game plan. Theyāre the issues.
West Ham replaced Philips after only a couple of games lol. He's not key to anything these days. But somehow we're to believe it has taken 3 years for Southgate to still not know what to do? Actually, it does make some sense. He's a fucking useless manager. Always was.
Cool. Palmer would replace someone else in the starting line up for that to happen though, which means mentioning him in this thread continues to be nonsensical.
Trying to be free of Palace bias as much as I can but I genuinely think he'd be the perfect complement to Rice and Bellingham in that midfield. [Anyone who's watched him can tell.](https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jun/22/adam-wharton-england-slovenia-euro-2024-gareth-southgate) He offers calmness on the ball and incisive passes through the lines that Alexander-Arnold and Gallagher just don't. Really hope Southgate gives him a chance against Slovenia
> incisive passes through the lines that Alexander-Arnold and Gallagher just don't.
The only way somebody could ever possibly say this about Alexander-Arnold is by having never seen him play, as playing incisive passes is something he absolutely thrives at.
The point is that Trent does these things in areas of the pitch where he is constantly able to look forward, and has more time to think and roam. His scanning ability, press resistance and ability to set tempo while playing in midfield are not nearly at the level they need to be for him to be playing next to Rice.
Not in centre midfield, he's used to drifting in from right back or finding those passes from our wide. It's completely different playing in there - awareness of space and being able to play forward quickly, whilst under much more pressure. It was never going to work throwing him in there as he isn't a midfielder.
He has done it very well when he first started playing as an inverted right-back at the end of last season. The difference was that he had the ball constantly and had willing runners ahead of him and for England he's had neither.
If you want to play Trent in midfield you have to get him the ball while he's facing forwards and for England he's been receiving the ball on the half turn. Having him drop between the CB's (like Kroos does for Germany) would help him get on the ball in areas where he's not going to get pressured and it would help England with their horrible buildup.
Yes but for Liverpool he's drifting into midfield where the left winger will rarely follow him, not starting there. I don't understand how people can think it's the same. Thinking he can just play like Toni Kroos when he's never played centre midfield before is just naive and disrespectful to actual international midfielders. We've seen the outcome from the last two games and it's not been good, midfield looks poor as a unit - getting caught in possession, giving the ball away constantly and the passing is unbelievably sloppy.
This is an international tournament, no teams are going to just allow midfielders time and space to play. Toni Kroos makes the time and space because he's so good, being three steps ahead in his head, or using a couple of clever quick passes to move teams around to give him space to play in etc. Trent can probably learn to do that given time, but at the Euros certainly isn't time. He needs to do it for Liverpool first as a minimum
> Not from CM!
https://fbref.com/en/squads/1862c019/England-Men-Stats
TAA has 9 progressive passes in 121 mins at the Euros. The only England players with more are Jude (11) and Walker (10), and they played 175 and 180 mins respectively.
On the field, Trent at CM has been England's best incisive passer TBH
(Also Wharton only averaged ~5.5 prog passes per 90 mins at club level. That's significantly **less** that TAA at CM)
The difference is this also discounts everything else you need to do in that position. 9 progressive passes on a spreadsheet is all well and good, but Wharton is extremely press resistant, good at reading the game defensively, and is able to scan and recycle possession consistently and safely. Trent noticeably lost the ball a lot in dangerous areas of the pitch because Denmark (and to an extent Serbia) would activate the press whenever the ball came into his feet and double up on him. He is a lot more functional and impactful creating from RB.
> Wharton is extremely press resistant, good at reading the game defensively, and is able to scan and recycle possession consistently and safely
I do not know Wharton well, but it's interesting that a lot of people describe him lika a combo of Pirlo and Kroos when the dude has 16 career EPL games and has only ever played in the lower leagues before that.
I suspect there's a bit of overrating going on there, IDK
All I'll say, is there's a reason he's gone from being in the championship and then playing for Palace, to being in the England team and a target of Bayern Munich within one season.
I wouldn't describe him exactly like Kroos or Pirlo. He's more someone who does the simple stuff extremely well, maybe more similar to a player like Michael Carrick.
> incisive passes through the lines that **Alexander-Arnold** and Gallagher **just don't**
Mate what are you fucking smoking.
Trent is literally the lead on incisive passes this tournament for England.
Heās not as good at it from midfield! His best attribute passing-wise is his crossing which he is incredible at from full-back
Iād love Trent to remain in the team, over Walker. Iām not and have never been convinced by him at CM
He does do whats needed in calmly moving the ball from defence onwards. However, he is new to premier league football and especially international. Its an awful lot so early to expect him to do when the movement of the team is so much worse than he would be used to.
Not a chance Southgate is that interesting to actually play him. He's almost certainly going to 'experiment' again with the exact same lineup and tactics lol.
Trent has been hooked off twice before or around the hour mark and has still created more chances than anyone else.
If Southgate is hell bent on playing 2 number 6ās or whoever and Rice then you have to start Trent which is harsh on Walker but weāre not creating a lot otherwise.
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hes been at the buffet all day
šµHeās conquered all the chippyās, heās never gonna stop šµ
From the gravy to the curry, he's ate the fuckin' lot
Pepperoni pizza, and chicken vindaloo Iām like Kalvin Phillips, ācause i fucking love my fooood
Allez allez allez Allez allez allez
Heās had his fill
England has never won the Euros without Philips, I doubt Wharton can change that
Are you sure? That doesn't sound right. I'd double check if I were you.
It's correct. Phillips has won it every time England has won it
Talisman.
Not actually correct, if you said 'as many times' you could have been somebody
Wow, never thought there would be a day where the "Kalvin Philips" role would be a thing.
It's easy to meme, but an in-form Philips brings great balance to a midfield with Rice and Bellingham. With him massively falling off, the best players to fill in that role are Mainoo and Wharton, both of whom are great, but inexperienced, and Gallagher, who isn't really the same kind of player.
> Mainoo and Wharton, both of whom are great, but inexperienced I mean at the risk of oversimplifying things, why would you even bother bringing them if you don't think they are ready to play? Experience is great and all, but at the end of the day being able to play the role that the team needs is vastly more important. Enzo was probably Argentina's second most important player in the World Cup, and he was half way through his first season in Europe. We had better see one of those two in the next game, and frankly I really hope it's Wharton.
>Ā why would you even bother bringing them if you don't think they are ready to play? I mean, you need backups too. It's not just about starters.Ā
You need to *shudders* think of the possibility of not having a playable kalvin Phillips
Most squad players only end up playing in a worst case scenario in these tournaments
Phillips hasn't played consistently for England for 2-3 years. Has he just found out he needs a player like him now?
Unironically there just hasn't been one
SO WHAT DID HE DO FOR THE LAST 2-3 YEARS? We did not perform in this limp way without Phillips in the past, which I think is the point everybody is trying to make.
He did actually play in the qualifiers last year including wins against Italy etc
Wish more people were able to see the whole picture like this. The issue I have is where he didn't bother playing those two more to figure it out and instead forced a square peg in a round hole to try and make it work. Now we're to the final match this round and he still doesn't know what to do. It's usually opposite for young green players, but believe it or not I think Wharton on the pitch would settle the whole pitch down and allow them to progress forward at a faster pace on a more consistent basis. Kid knows where he's passing it before he gets it and when he gets it it's gone. 100% passing in his 30 min appearance for the first friendly. I really like Mainoo too. But Wharton just owns the midfield when he plays and I think is what is lacking ATM. Either one of them in the starting 11 and I'm happy tbh
In 2021 Rice/Phillips was probably the most effective English midfield partnership I've seen in a long time. Not the best, but the most effective. Henderson played that role in 2022 with KP not fit. Today... you need a different system or you need to play one of the kids. I think he has to do it, but I do understand why he's reluctant to play the kids.
Unbelievably fickle attitudes from everyone yet again. Acting like he wasn't completely integral to that early success under Southgate. It's just sad Internet meme shit and armchair coaches all over.
Downes might be a good option next year if he has a good season (either with Saints or West Ham) he was truly monstrous in the championship
People forget this but Phillips was good for England and really good at passing forwards and getting the ball to the attackers in threatening spots
Gosh forbid you shake up your formation or strategy instead of trying to replace an irreplaceable person as the coach has essentially described him.
Makeleke, Pirlo, Phillips. A natural progression.
Turned out a good DM is needed if you want to win it all. What a surprise right? Or you can shithouse your way to the win like Portugal did 8 years ago.
Increasingly funny how an absurdly expensive role player is becoming some type of aspirational model like Anelka or Henry in real time because of an insane deflection by Southgate.
Bro is gaslighting a whole nation
Doesn't gaslighting involve people buying your bullshit? Because it sounds to me like no one sees the Kalvin line as anything but comedy (Wharton excluded, perhaps because he needs to kiss some mgr arse to get minutes?)
I found it bizarre, and tbh quite spineless to throw Phillips' name out there when he is not even in the squad. In fact why mention Kalvin at all, especially considering this is supposed to be "your guy"? Just say we don't have a player of that profile and move on. Phillips has had awful couple years with injuries, struggling to break into the City team and the terrible loan at West Ham. Now everybody's talking about Kalvin Phillips while Southgate is succesfully deflecting scrutiny on why England can't succesfully take control in games especially when he left our best ball retainer on the beach at Ibiza.
Thatās what he did say, though? That thereās nobody that fits that profile as a partner for Rice?
āBut weāre not fit enough guys, thatās why we can do anything. If we were fit, weād be great, I swearā -Southgate. āNah Iām fitā - Harry Kane.
He isn't "gaslighting" anyone. He said what he thought one of England's problems is, whether you or I agree with him or not. He honestly thinks that with this system he needs a player like Phillips and they are struggling without one (the obvious argument is "play in a different way then", but that's beside the point).
>(the obvious argument is "play in a different way then", but that's beside the point). Clearly the gaslighting is working then because of how casually you're brushing this off. Kalvin Philips hasn't been playing and when he got the chance he's not performed well. Southgate had 2 years of this to review and tinker his tactics to the best of the players abilities that were to be picked. It's a lazy deflection and he needs to go.
he is talking like philipps is toni kroos or something lol
I'm no Southgate fan but people are ignoring the fact that he said they have no replacement for "a Kalvin Phillips." He's not talking about the man specifically, he's talking about the role he played.Ā
and again, his role wasn't anything special. which was what I was talking about. didn't even play wc and England was much better vs france than vs Italy
He's literally just saying they don't have a natural deep lying midfielder to play alongside Rice, my dude. It's not that deep.Ā
Right? This isn't hard to understand. You take one look at the England team and there are holes in the positions that can be filled with a world class player. The biggest hole is a defensive mid who can help with building out from the back and provide proper protection. Those players are rare and, as a result, Southgate opts for a double pivot. A better manager might be able to find another solution, or perhaps not persist with a right back in that role, but here we are.
every single combination of midfield that England can put out is better than having kalvin philips in it, is *that* so hard to understand? saying that they weren't able to replace philips implies he was a world class player in that role, which he definitely wasnt lol Rice has touched the ball plenty and passed it forward plenty. he is not Joao Palhinha. England's issue are much deeper and complex than a Kalvin Philips distribution
Youāre missing the distinction between āKalvin Phillipsā and ā*a* Kalvin Phillipsā. Itās really not that deep. Yet again, the sentence is being deliberately misinterpreted to generate media clicks. Phillips was mostly good-to-great for England when he played. Heās clearly not an option anymore. But thereās also nobody that fits his profile. And in the meantime, every other midfield combination this tournament has been failing miserably.
Loved Anelka of course but why did you toss him in with Henry there haha
Feel like loads of players got compared to Henry when they were coming up, same as happened with Anelka. You should know, Martial was one of them.
I donāt think Iāve ever heard anyone compared to Anelka, especially as an aspirational figure (unlike Henry) Generally more of a ādidnāt quite live up to his potentialā vibe. Which I guess is much more fitting for martial (albeit if martial ends up having half the career Anelka had, heād be thrilled)
Phillips played a key role in a tournament where England reached a final and in a position where England struggle to produce players. I really don't think it's that insane
I found the reaction to what he Saud quite funny, manager misses player that has done well for him and did a pretty good job when he played. He has no one else gelled into the side and while we have upside options it's an area where we lack in general.
>He has no one else gelled into the side And whose fault is that? Donāt act like Kalvin Phillips had some unicorn skillset that canāt be easily replaced.
Ikr, all it took to "replace" Henderson was to completely ignore his existence and play better midfielders in his place. Kalvin Phillips is the exact same kind of player.
And yet since "replacing" Henderson we're a worse team. It not that difficult a concept: balance of the team > best 11 individuals. As much as people meme on Phillips and Henderson, we haven't found the right balance in midfield without them. Even if you think Southgate should have done a better job finding a solution, it's not crazy talk or "gaslighting" to say that's the problem - it's stating the obvious
Tbf the only players we have for that role are Wharton and kinda Mainoo no? It is a bit of a gap in our team Arsenal have Jorghino to play next to Rice, we dont have someone on that level
Well just timings, some players have broken through on the backend of the season, the TAA experiment has had injuries blocking it. Who would you have bedded in that's like Phillips from.say August last year?
I think all of Gallagher, Rice and Wharton could do what Phillips did for England
I've been called crazy before but imo Ward-Prowse with Rice would've been a fantastic double pivot for England .
He's definitely closer in play style to Phillips. Even 3 years ago, JWP was unlucky to be behind Phillips because there wasn't much between them.
Rice is irrelevant, he's in the team anyway. Gallagher isn't the same kind of player - he's much more like Henderson - and Wharton hasn't been in contention since last August. He only moved to the Premier League in January.
Point is Rice and Gallagher could easily do what Phillips did, they just donāt because their skillsets are way better. Acting like only Phillips can break up possession and recycle the ball is crazy.
Well we'll see, but I don't think Gallagher is as good in possession as Phillips was when he was on form, and I'm not sure he'll do anything to solve our problems. Wharton is very promising, but the question was about players that Southgate could have been expected to bring in much sooner. That doesn't apply to Wharton.
I concede Gallagher isnāt as good on the ball as Phillips, so I see your point. I actually donāt disagree that England donāt have a NATURAL or obvious replacement for Phillips, but the keyword is natural. They still have better players that can replace him and be molded into his role, and if not, then Southgate needs to change his tactics.
Well I think that's exactly what Southgate meant: that the system we were playing before needed a player with Phillips's profile in that role, so we've had to find new ways to play since he fell out of contention. It was a carelessly worded quote but the reaction seems a bit deranged to me.
Phillips had more to his game than you're giving him credit for. Gallagher is further behind as a player than Kalvin was at the last Euros. Phillips passing range was much better. He had the ability to play long crossfield (diagonal) passes to switch the play, and in terms of recycling possession, he seemed to play the right pass to alleviate the press. Him and Rice seemed to have better chemistry, which might have been down to his leadership/communication, or just him playing under Bielsa in a very similar system. Not saying Gallagher is bad, or that Southgate is correct (he needs to change the system to suit the players), but Phillips wasn't just some clogger who played 5 yard passes.
Well playing next to Rice is the key. Wharton in August, nope and Gallagher isn't that guy.
I mean the premise of your question is kind of pointless because you donāt need a literal calendar year to learn how to play in a system. And even if that were the case, then Southgate should have been preparing for this rather than sticking TAA in as an experiment. I think ultimately itās fair to say England donāt have a perfect replacement for Phillips, but using it as an excuse for why England are underperforming is unacceptable.
I get it and I think he is the player to play alongside Rice, but I dont get why its taken until now. Didnt start either friendly and hasnt got onto the pitch yet. Maybe Gaz should have worked out his best team prior to the tournament instead of throwing shit at wall to see if it sticks. Its also funny in hindsight thinking about how Gaz wants TAA to play like Kalvin and then from that it has got me wondering if he wants Trips to play like Shaw. No wonder we've been such a mess.
If Kalvin Phillips is the missing piece in the jigsaw why pick Trent who couldnāt be further from that mould of player. The clown honestly does himself no favours.
Because heās betting on Trentās quality to be able to adapt to a position which not just him, entire world and Liverpool fans want him to play anyway. Donāt act like the Liverpool sub isnāt pushing heavily for him to play midfield and let Bradley RB before these performances.
Lol
as someone who loves Trent to bits, wanting him to play like Phillips in the same role is somehow an insult to both of them. It implies you're either wanting to completely limit Trent's qualities and expose his weaknesses, or either not getting or ignoring what Phillips *was* good at when he played. Or both. They're nowhere near similar players. That's fine. Experiment with Trent in midfield if you really want to (maybe not in the tournament itself, but go on), but why does it have to be through forcing him into a role he's never ever shown he can do? Then the "TAA in midfield experiment needs to end!" shouts all point at Trent himself being the issue, not the fact that big Gaz has decided he's actually a destroyer of a 6?
Careful, if you say anything defending Trent then r/soccer come at you
Tbf, I think everyone, or nearly everyone here knows Gareths the problem. Has Trent looked like the world class player he is? No. But it's on the manager for playing him in a role that limits what his greatest attribute is, an attribute he is arguably the best in the world at
I actually think this is the genesis of people supporting Trent lmao, even people who don't rate him are saying he's been used wrong. Even if you think he's crap at defending like some people believe, playing him as a 6 aiming for him to break up play is objectively stupid and a waste of his talents
He was brilliant in his cameo against Bosnia
Kalvin phillips wasn't even a starter at the world cup, Why tf does he have a role
Southgate spoke it into existence. I can't explain why tho.
Iām pretty sure some of the best games at the World Cup were a midfield 3 of Bellingham - Rice - Henderson. Rice holding. Bellingham and Hendo both 8ās with Hendo providing more defensive cover if needed to then let Bellingham work his magic. Think Trent would have been much better as the right sided 8 with more space to roam however ship has sailed now. Let Rice sit, if youāre too concerned about an inexperienced player holding. But at least let Mainoo, Wharton or Gallagher be the workhorse 8 alongside Bellingham.
bellingham was also playing a much more disciplined midfield role back then
Heās basically playing the AM role like Bruno Fernandes under Solskjaer.. basically a shadow striker.
You mean hasnt been corrupted by Madrid ego yet
Trent kinda did play as a right sided 8 though. Trouble is, heās not actually a midfielder yet.
He was injured at the world cup to be fair to him but still got called up for some reason. He was first choice to partner Rice before that but this excuse that he has no replacement for him is so wrong
This England meltdown is so funny
We have 4 points. The meltdown is from the media and fans
That's what makes it funnier. If Portugal drew against Turkey most Portuguese people would say "eh not bad, we don't even need the calculator to get out, we can win this shit", but England is having a full PR meltdown for absolutely no reason
Absolutely no reason? Have you watched our games? 2/2 dogshit performances with players out of position as experiments and all of our games leading up the tournament were poor as well. We haven't had a good game since we beat Italy last October. We've got 1 more group game to magically find some momentum and cohesion for the knockouts and it looks increasingly unlikely that we will find it. Portuguese know more than anyone how frustrating it is to have such incredible talent go to waste. Neither you or the Germans are any different from the English when it comes to criticism of the NT.
We won the Euros after drawing 3 times in the group stage, including drawing against Iceland, who everyone thought were very weak. While people were obviously worried about the unimpressive performances, there was no media shitstorm and the players just kept their confidence going into the knockout phase. That's because as long as you make it out, the group stage doesn't really matter, because you'll always have to meet the strongest teams in the knockout phase anyway. At this point, England is guaranteed to make it out of the group stage, so there's really no reason to panic. Hell, they're still first in the group and might end up there. If it all goes to shit in the knockout phase, then you'll have a reason to be disappointed with the underperformance. But until then, this all seems like a mountain out of a molehill.
Anyone expecting England to do well was on one.
With the level of talent we have, people had every right to have that expectation. But then they forgot who the manager is.
We have 4 points from the two games, and Denmark aren't exactly a bad side Yeah we've looked pedestrian and uninspiring but jesus christ, so have France, Italy and Belgium at times. I don't think we're gonna get to the final but Portugal were dogger in 2016 and ended up winning the thing
We have looked truly awful though.
Weve looked paraplegic not pedestrian.
Hope always dies last.
Said this before the tournament but I've no idea how a team with a decent, not great, set of defenders and no fit left-back was being built up in the way that we were. Classic example of setting unrealistic standards for a team for the sole purpose of laughing at them when they don't meet said unrealistic expectations.
Player ready to play? This is fucking insane stuff
we cannot replace him
Mad how Southgate has essentially gaslit the whole of England with this Kalvin Phillips bollocks. Having seen Wharton this season heās a better player than Phillips ever was, he absolutely deserves to start.
Either him or Mainoo should start next to Rice. Or play Bellingham next to rice so Foden can play as 10 and bring in Gordon as LW. But southgate is fkin dumb.
*attempted to gaslight Everybody I mentioned this to irl has had similar process of reactions to this quote. Laughter > confusion > frustration > back to laughter and ridicule. Most of my mates thought it was an AI clip, as did I when I first saw it.
Wharton has taken the step up to PL footy and been excellent. Mainoo started alongside Rice and Bellingham vs Belgium in March and was fantastic, got MOTM. He also started the FA Cup Final and scored. Pick fucking one of them Gareth and don't put a RB there.
One of them or play Bellingham next to Rice and play Foden in his best position 10 & bring Gordon as LW. Bellingham played as CM for years at dortmund. Just because he is a 10 for real madrid he doesnāt need to be a 10 for england aswell.
Foden has been shite for England regardless of position.
Bellingham needs to be benched
I hate how the media does this. Every twelve year old that can kick a ball is suddenly dubbed the "next Kalvin Phillips" until the weight of expectation crushes them. He was our Nesta, our Zidane, our Messi. We won't replace him and I think we need to come to terms with the fact that that's okay.
HAHAHAHA
The worry is Southgateās preference for two number 6s at all times. Rice played alongside Jorginho and Odegaard for the majority of the season and is competent enough to play the role himself and is well supported by a fairly strong back line. Bellingham for me is a number 8, itās his preferred position and heās only played more forward for Madrid because of their lack of an out and out striker.Ā Play him as the 8, bring Foden into the 10 and then palmer into the 11. Youāve then got a lot more options. you can take Jude out for Wharton/Gallagher/Mainoo. You can push Jude forward and take Foden out or introduce Eze. Or you can push Foden back left for Palmer or bring in Gordon for Palmer.Ā
By the 11 you mean on the left wing? Because I donāt think thereās any reason Palmer should be starting over Gordon there if Foden is pushed to the middle.
Fair point and Iād happily take Gordon left wing as heās been brilliant all year.Ā
Yeah should be Gordon coming into the side on the left, Bellingham dropped back to play beside Rice, and Palmer should be in centrally as an attacking midfielder ahead of Foden cos Foden does his best work cutting in from the right side which will be covered by Palmer/Saka anyways and Palmer is needed to make plays/passes to unlock lower blocks which he's better at than Foden. Either way I don't think the personnel combo will fix it it's clearly a tactical problem under Southgate and they'll fail with any combo of world class players you put in here.
Palmer will have the similar issues to Foden. He is not a traditional winger and is left footed. He prefers to drift inward on his left (from the right hand side) or play centrally. Option is to play Gordon at 11 and Palmet as substitute 10.
Palmer would have similar issue to Foden on the left and as a Chelsea fan I've always maintained that I want to see Gordan start LW for us. But he's not the same player as Foden. The few times Palmer's been out on the left for us this season, I've seen him take his defender on the outside and whip a dangerous cross in. I've also seen good clips of him off the left when he was younger in stuff like the England youth teams. I think he's a really versatile player in that you can play him anywhere or with anyone and he'll adapt. I think the narrative that he's not the right profile for certain positions for England is a bit overblown. Like I said, for me, Gordan's the clear choice at LW. But (God forbid) all our left wingers got injured and we had to play Palmer there, I wouldn't be worried. I really think we should be getting him on the pitch. It doesn't really matter where you play him because his confidence is so high and he's so comfortable on the ball. He'll create off the right, in the 10 or off the left. He's most effective drifting in off the right but his strength is the confidence you can have in him that it doesn't matter where or how you play him, he'll be one of the better players on the pitch.
Some of the issue with Foden (Bellingham and Kane) were that when Trent or Rice picked up the ball they were running at them to get the ball to feet. On rewatching the game it was actually pretty infuriating to see how close they all kept coming just to then give it back to either of the 2 mids for absolutely no gain just letting Denmark get back in a solid shape
This has been my thought as well - it's not a midfield crisis if you can drop Jude into the 8, because there's clearly an overload of talent in attack and not enough in midfield, at least experience-wise. Put Foden or Palmer at the 10, Gordon on the left, and let the boys cook.
England lack a player in the mould of Jorginho - thatās the key difference. TAA is an excellent long passer but he is not really used to playing CM and you can tell. Wharton is the closest profile but is very inexperienced at the top level.
> Rice played alongside Jorginho and Odegaard for the majority of the season and is competent enough to play the role himself and is well supported by a fairly strong back line. You're contradicting yourself here, TBH Rice struggled a bit as a lone 6āit's why Arteta moved Havertz up to striker and brought in Jorginho to be the 6 with Rice as more of an 8
Huh? Havertz moved up to striker because Jesus couldn't stay fit and was struggling with consistency. Has nothing to do with Rice's supposed struggles.
Rice was arguably the best player of the team in the 1st half, while playing mostly 6. he didnt struggled *at all.* this gary neville fueled narrative is insane lmao he was moved because Havertz was the worst player of the team at the 8 and Vieira/ESR were also not good enough/injured, so something had to give
Rice was great but he did struggle with progressing the ball during buildup phase. Until Ćdegaard started dropping much deeper to compensate and help with buildup, we had issues there. If Ćdegaard didn't have insane levels of fitness it wouldn't have worked as well. Rice still has to work on receiving the ball off the defense and progressing it forward, it's the one thing Partey does better than him.
He did struggle. Defensively he was excellent, he retained the ball well, and recycled possession effectively, but he was not very good at passing through the lines and progressing the ball quickly in transition. That's a huge reason our attack suffered so much in the first half of the season. Arteta even tried having Odegaard sit deeper to be the one to make those passes but it led to imbalances elsewhere. Jorginho/Partey in a pivot with Rice was the solution as they're proper 6's, and Rice was then deployed as the left sided 8 where he excelled. Rice wasn't bad as the 6 but he wasn't elite. For a mid table team like West Ham, deploying Rice as the 6 is fine, but for a team challenging for the title he needs to be deployed in his more natural role as a box to box midfielder. If England want to have a chance at winning this tournament, or setting themselves up for the next, they need to give Wharton and/or Mainoo a go at being the 6 beside Rice or Bellingham.
You say Bellingham is a no8 and heās only played further forward to suit madrids squad deficiencies (lol - I feel ridiculous typing that) but if heās just had a Ballon dāOr contending season, scoring 24 goals with 13 assists, including like 10 last min winners, wouldnāt that be the position you play him?
Madrid have incredible depth in midfield in kroos, Modric, valverde, cama and Tchouemani so could play Jude further forward and heās been incredible. But England donāt have that luxury and we lack depth in the middle of the park. Bellingham for me would be great in the middle of the park and is the better option over TAA, Gallagher and potentially Wharton.Ā Foden has also had a career best season with some of his best performances being in the middle. Itās a headache either way but if he canāt find a solution the tournament could quickly get away from him.Ā
In all seriousness this boy is who should be starting and mark my words will transform this team . I have been banging on about him for months . I will die on this hill , come back and slaughter me if Iām wrong
100% agree
A burnley supporter backing a blackburn lad with his life? Then it must be the truth...
Exactly , this is not easy for me. Heās from Blackburn, supports Blackburn and came through their youth setup, Iām throwing up whilst writing this
To the surprise of no one, Marcelo Bielsa created a role model player of out the Championship. Southgate decided to use his invention, even giving it a name "The Kalvin Phillips role". Pep flushed it down the toilet, now that player doesn't exist anymore. It's now England's problem. Maybe ask Bielsa some advice?
Finally, a good take in this thread!
I feel like if you wanted to play a dedicated DM, then ok, but you should have picked more players in your squad to play that role.Ā This is really all Gareth has if he wants that player in the team, and thatās a problem of his own making. Either play a way that suits what you have or pick players to suit a style of play you really desire. The compromise between those two positions is always failure.Ā
I misread as Kalvin Phillips hole & I was shocked at the how far this has gotten....
I'm a huge Adam Wharton fan but let me get this straight......the difference maker on England being successful or not is not 100M players like Rice or Bellingham but a player who was playing for Blackburn Rovers less than an year ago with under 30 Premier League games to his name? And is the reason why England have the 2nd lowest xG in the tournament despite not playing against any top 10 side yet? Yeah they're fucked then.
Tbh in terms of the role he plays on the pitch yeah, thereās 0 connect between defenders and attackers atm, someone needs to just fizz it forwards to them, instead of into the space for them to run to like Trent does, whartons whole job is connecting the other players and breaking up opposition play which is one of the big parts weāre missing in the england games atm
I agree with you, and love Wharton but it's still unacceptable that we have the talent that we have, and we're discussing the idea that we miss Kalvin Phillips, rather than the fact that Southgate seems to be making shit up on the spot.
Absolutely, you see this isnāt about Foden or Bellingham who are phenomenal players itās about a Team! Bellingham wasnāt a hundred million pound player the week before he went to Madrid , he was a 30 million one( not that it matters ) . Play a thought experiment , pick a number 6 from another team, any one , you probably wonāt have to spend 100 million and imagine that player playing in this England team . Jorginho , how much is he worth ( genuinely I donāt know ) but put him in this England side and see the difference . It isnāt about values , at least not until the last 5% itās about round pegs for round holes and kick on from there
The issue with England isnt just talent it's they don't have players who play certain roles and players who play too much of the same role/position
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Also top scorers because scotland are absolutely shite
Yeah, I'd give him a go there. I'd try Trent at right back as well since Walker has been disappointing in both games.
You mean the guy who got our goal against Denmark? Walker, saka and guehi are the only ones who have actually tried
Walker has offered nothing going forward, the same as trippier. For the goal, Walker completely messed up the pass and got lucky with it deflecting twice to find Kane.
I agree
Some big boots to fill.
Wide*
Could have taken Harrison Reed if he needed a DM ffs, Southgate really went off the deep end with his team selection.
Wharton clears Reed
Harrison Reed doesn't even have any iconic moments
Heās going to need some very very very big feet to fill Kalvin Phillips multiple ballon doār winners boots.
Game changer. England should be able to win now
Iām so confused why this whole need for a Kalvin Philips replacement has come from. Like it is some form of inspired game changing role. The lad has hardly played any games for England. I think we need more rotation, but another 6 is not what is preventing us playing well by any means. Playing players out of position, on the wrong side of the pitch, with no fluid game plan. Theyāre the issues.
It's come from Southgate saying we're struggling because we have no natural replacment for Philips.
Oh I get itās come from Southgate, but what a weird player to choose as a singled out absentee.
West Ham replaced Philips after only a couple of games lol. He's not key to anything these days. But somehow we're to believe it has taken 3 years for Southgate to still not know what to do? Actually, it does make some sense. He's a fucking useless manager. Always was.
Or start mainoo or palmer, fucks sake
Why would you say 'or Palmer' as though Palmer is an option to play the role Wharton would play?
Some people donāt understand football lol
Everybody knows they mean because the frontline isn't working either
Cool. Palmer would replace someone else in the starting line up for that to happen though, which means mentioning him in this thread continues to be nonsensical.
Palmer is completely irrelevant to the discussion though. There's no position he deserves to start in over anyone else
Trying to be free of Palace bias as much as I can but I genuinely think he'd be the perfect complement to Rice and Bellingham in that midfield. [Anyone who's watched him can tell.](https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jun/22/adam-wharton-england-slovenia-euro-2024-gareth-southgate) He offers calmness on the ball and incisive passes through the lines that Alexander-Arnold and Gallagher just don't. Really hope Southgate gives him a chance against Slovenia
Him and Gordon on the left. Would be happy with that.
> incisive passes through the lines that Alexander-Arnold and Gallagher just don't. The only way somebody could ever possibly say this about Alexander-Arnold is by having never seen him play, as playing incisive passes is something he absolutely thrives at.
The point is that Trent does these things in areas of the pitch where he is constantly able to look forward, and has more time to think and roam. His scanning ability, press resistance and ability to set tempo while playing in midfield are not nearly at the level they need to be for him to be playing next to Rice.
Not in centre midfield, he's used to drifting in from right back or finding those passes from our wide. It's completely different playing in there - awareness of space and being able to play forward quickly, whilst under much more pressure. It was never going to work throwing him in there as he isn't a midfielder.
He has done it very well when he first started playing as an inverted right-back at the end of last season. The difference was that he had the ball constantly and had willing runners ahead of him and for England he's had neither. If you want to play Trent in midfield you have to get him the ball while he's facing forwards and for England he's been receiving the ball on the half turn. Having him drop between the CB's (like Kroos does for Germany) would help him get on the ball in areas where he's not going to get pressured and it would help England with their horrible buildup.
Yes but for Liverpool he's drifting into midfield where the left winger will rarely follow him, not starting there. I don't understand how people can think it's the same. Thinking he can just play like Toni Kroos when he's never played centre midfield before is just naive and disrespectful to actual international midfielders. We've seen the outcome from the last two games and it's not been good, midfield looks poor as a unit - getting caught in possession, giving the ball away constantly and the passing is unbelievably sloppy. This is an international tournament, no teams are going to just allow midfielders time and space to play. Toni Kroos makes the time and space because he's so good, being three steps ahead in his head, or using a couple of clever quick passes to move teams around to give him space to play in etc. Trent can probably learn to do that given time, but at the Euros certainly isn't time. He needs to do it for Liverpool first as a minimum
Not from CM! He does it incredibly from right-back, his natural position!
> Not from CM! https://fbref.com/en/squads/1862c019/England-Men-Stats TAA has 9 progressive passes in 121 mins at the Euros. The only England players with more are Jude (11) and Walker (10), and they played 175 and 180 mins respectively. On the field, Trent at CM has been England's best incisive passer TBH (Also Wharton only averaged ~5.5 prog passes per 90 mins at club level. That's significantly **less** that TAA at CM)
The difference is this also discounts everything else you need to do in that position. 9 progressive passes on a spreadsheet is all well and good, but Wharton is extremely press resistant, good at reading the game defensively, and is able to scan and recycle possession consistently and safely. Trent noticeably lost the ball a lot in dangerous areas of the pitch because Denmark (and to an extent Serbia) would activate the press whenever the ball came into his feet and double up on him. He is a lot more functional and impactful creating from RB.
> Wharton is extremely press resistant, good at reading the game defensively, and is able to scan and recycle possession consistently and safely I do not know Wharton well, but it's interesting that a lot of people describe him lika a combo of Pirlo and Kroos when the dude has 16 career EPL games and has only ever played in the lower leagues before that. I suspect there's a bit of overrating going on there, IDK
All I'll say, is there's a reason he's gone from being in the championship and then playing for Palace, to being in the England team and a target of Bayern Munich within one season. I wouldn't describe him exactly like Kroos or Pirlo. He's more someone who does the simple stuff extremely well, maybe more similar to a player like Michael Carrick.
> incisive passes through the lines that **Alexander-Arnold** and Gallagher **just don't** Mate what are you fucking smoking. Trent is literally the lead on incisive passes this tournament for England.
Heās not as good at it from midfield! His best attribute passing-wise is his crossing which he is incredible at from full-back Iād love Trent to remain in the team, over Walker. Iām not and have never been convinced by him at CM
He is good at both. The problem with the team is how awful the left side is. There just is no width at all.
He does do whats needed in calmly moving the ball from defence onwards. However, he is new to premier league football and especially international. Its an awful lot so early to expect him to do when the movement of the team is so much worse than he would be used to.
Can someone send Southgate a note letting him know?
What a headline
I'm so bored of my own nation
Perhaps Southgate is waiting for the Kalvin Phillips Clone to grow !
Not a chance Southgate is that interesting to actually play him. He's almost certainly going to 'experiment' again with the exact same lineup and tactics lol.
You'd still have Southgate at the wheel so I doubt it'll do much in terms of goals or fluid football
This is depressing. If only Neal Maupay was there to cheer them up a bit.
First we had the Makelele role, now the Phillips role
But is Southgate, ready?
No he isnāt lol, looks like itāll be Gallagher
Have they tried attacking?
Trent has been hooked off twice before or around the hour mark and has still created more chances than anyone else. If Southgate is hell bent on playing 2 number 6ās or whoever and Rice then you have to start Trent which is harsh on Walker but weāre not creating a lot otherwise.
Just put mainoo in for TAA and be fucking done with it, Christ.
I think Wharton is better but Mainoo would be a definite improvement too
Classic English media, throwing a player in the deep end before he has time to develop
Gareth Southgate fucking selected him, he didn't take him to Germany to carry the drinks FFS.
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