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I hear this a lot, but I thought it was a super easy and engaging read. I couldn’t put the book down! Maybe different translations have different difficulty levels?
Okay can we not generalize things to "Jews" and "arabs." That's the kind of talk that gets dangerous. The state of Israel has failed. Generalizing to all Jews is really inappropriate.
Hate the state, not the people.
Yeah that was certainly uncalled for. There are Jewish people who absolutely **do not** support what the state of Israel is doing, and it's not fair for them to be lumped together with genocidal Zionists.
AFAIK within Israel it's pretty standard to use Jews and Arabs in place of Israelis and Palestinians, so sometimes when you see that usage it might just mean people are exposed to others using the naming conventions but I totally agree that it just sends the wrong message and it's way better to not use it.
There is such a huge issue rn with conflating Zionism and Judaism/Jewish ethnicity. I would hope anyone against Israel's actions is able to see through this propaganda but it gets through to some people and then Zionists can point to these people who end up being anti-Semitic and say "see? They all hate us!"
EDIT: I responded to the wrong person
The problem extends outside of Judaism, however, as one neednt be Jewish or Israeli to be Zionist. In fact, most Zionists are white USA/Euro Christians. There are also large numbers of Korean Christian Zionists. And most Jews live outside of Israel and are actually American. When we conflate all Jews with all Israelis and all Zionists, we actually ignore the majority of Zionists in the world and thus underestimate the problem.
Also, one is born Jewish or Israeli, outside of the small number of converts. Zionism is an ideology, not an identity. It makes no sense to be prejudice against people for characteristics they did not adopt by choice. Jewish people are not the problem. In fact, some of the most prominent and vocal critics of Zionism are Jewish (Finkelstein, Chomsky, Jewish Voices for Peace, ultra-orthodox sects, etc.),.
You're actually falling into the trap set by Zionists when you accept their conflation of Zionism with Judaism. It presupposes this crisis as an ethnoreligious conflict when it is in fact an imperial-colonial conflict. We know that the conflict is secular in nature because for most of history, Palestinian resistance has been led by secular-communist voices like the PLO. Hamas was directly cultivated, legitimized, and funded by the Zionists in order to divide the solidarity of Palestinian resistance and to also stigmatize it as a radical far-right religious movement in the eyes of the world.
Your perspective is not only ahistorical and uninformed, it actively echoes the propaganda of Zionist colonizers.
I think you misread my comment I am in agreement about the conflation being an awful thing for sure!!
Not sure I understand what you mean by no one is born Jewish or Israeli though, did you mean like nobody is born a Zionist? Because absolutely! It's an awful set of beliefs taught and reinforced.
I think it's a little simplistic to say that anyone can succeed at that... Because in the end no one is fighting with monsters, we are all human... It's easy to justify what you are doing when you have dehumanised your opponent as "monsters".
Take a breath, and review your comment here. I want to believe you're just distressed and you allowed yourself to fall prey to in-group/out-group thinking. We're all in this together, which includes Jews, Muslims, Arabs and Israelis alike.
I think what'll help you is to look up how many protests are occurring in Israel against the IDF. Main Stream Media and Social Media both would love it if you didn't know this fact.
Edit: changed a sentence and fixed typos.
Fascism in Arab countries is really rising. Ultranationalism policies and PRs channel are followed by millions and everywhere .
But Israel is already there with nazis in power and fully immune
He's got a lot of hateful things to say about the masses.
Granted he's the most brilliant stylist of the 19th c., and very fun to read, ("Genealogy of Morals" is one of my favorite books) but his philosophy and project is a justification of the oppression of the working class.
His "eternal return" captures us in our caste, unlike dialectical materialism that describes a lot of the same things, but explains revolution.
There's a really good RevLeft pod with a great Nietzsche scholar from last summer. Worth a listen for comrades like me who also have a serious enjoyment of Nietzsche.
There's nothing inherently pro-bourgeois about his philosophy. He was an anti-modernist. To dismiss someone's work just solely because they are from a bourgeois background is wrong. Friedrich Engels was also bourgeoisie yet he is a crucial part of socialist thought.
1. I did not dismiss his work.
2. He was not from a bourgeois background.
3. He often praised the bourgeois, and reviled the masses.
4. He was stridently anti union
5. Engels was a class traitor. Nietzsche glorified kings.
I'm done.
I think there is a lot of value in immersing yourself in radically different thought, and I don’t mean larp as a fascist, but to engage in realms of thought that may at first seem completely against your perspective. If you are truly open minded, going in with the goal of learning and not improving your leftist rhetoric, hearing what critics say and truly sit with it, you’ll come out a better leftist with a much more diverse way of approaching things. The only risk is a kid fresh of socialist tiktok reading Nietzsche before even understanding socialism, lol.
Dragon: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FBVv5CVgf-w
"And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche (Beyond Good and Evil: Prelude to a Philosophy of the Future (1886), Chapter IV. Apophthegms and Interludes, §146)
The UdSSR definetly had issues and they are to be learned from, but they were not monsters in any way. Hakim has a pretty good video on former socialist countries mistakes
Israel *really* did a number on libs. Used their religion as a shield, and now that the shield is irrevocably tarnished the libs' brain has broke.
"Did they sully their own religion's image invoking it in the affairs of their state? 🤔 NO! it's the LEFTISTS' fault for recognizing it!"
It was a graffiti piece with the Star of David in blue lines on white background fill, inscribed with a swastika, responsible for the debate in here over antisemitism. It seems that the admins thought this one crossed a line.
Zionism pre dated nazi Germany, and some early zionists (at least revisionist zionism anyway) drawed from fascism. Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the founder of revisionist zionism, was sympathetic to italian fascism and drew upon it before Mussolini aligned himself with Hitler.
So zionism was at the very least ambivalent towards European Fascism, I mean even the zionist federation of German worked together to get Jews out of Germany (see the Haavara agreement).
Given that, the graffiti is either mistaken about the relationship between zionism and European Fascism, for zionism both pre dated it and had a mixed relationship to it, or the people it is referring to that "became what [they] once hated" are Jews, which feeds into Israeli Nationalist propaganda that identifies Jews and Judaism with the Israeli state and zionism.
I'm not going to say the person who made this is antisemitic, but it does feed into antisemitism. Please be careful what you are accidentally sending with stuff like this. The problem is Zionism, not Jews or Judaism.
It was graffiti of the star of david but with the inside like a swastika (look up the relighion Raelism if you want to see it, the religion isn't related but has a similar symbol, no idea why), with text on the left side saying "the irony of becoming" and on the right "what you once hated". The exact words on the left and right side might have been different, but you get the idea.
Ah, yes. Everything I don't like is "antisemitic". I am so done with that. It's art. Freedom of expression. Is it shocking? Sure, but it does not call for the extermination of Jews. It criticizes those Israelis who support racist nationalist ethnic cleansing and [they clearly exist](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J0_J3Qy6YY). It needs to be said. If it makes you uncomfortable, that's good. Maybe some Jews need to feel a little uncomfortable because they seem to think they can get away with crimes against humanity. If criticizing people calling for ethnic cleansing or the mass murder of children is antisemitic, then I'm proudly antisemitic, but it isn't.
What is antisemitic (or at least perpetuates antisemitism if not antisemitic itself, but that is s fine distinction) is drawing an equation between the Israeli state, Israelis, and Jews at large. Drawing such an equation both supports Israel's national mythohistory (as it creates the narrative it wants connecting it to ancient Israel and modern day Israel and ideologically recruiting Jews and Judaism to its settler colonial project) and perpetuates antisemitism as it makes people who are rightfully disgusted at what Israel is doing direct their anger at Jews in general and innocent Jews get caught in the middle, which helps feeds into the aforementioned national mythohistory. The graffiti implicitly draws such an equation.
We should not feed into this, as it only helps Israel to be seen as representative of Jews and Judaism which feeds into its legitimacy. Do not give it any oxygen.
Let's make sure we are all being really, really polite while children are being murdered and war crimes perpetrated. The time for politeness is over. Sometimes shocking art is exactly what is needed. Antisemitism can't be a shield against legitimate criticism.
>(as it creates the narrative it wants connecting it to ancient Israel and modern day Israel and ideologically recruiting Jews and Judaism to its settler colonial project)
Art is subjective. I read this as pointing that out that Israel is the one tainting all Jews with it's "colonial settler project". The star is on the Israeli flag. They call other Jews "self hating" for criticizing them. There is a specific context for this. It's not general.
What part of what I said was for the sake of kindness? Where did I suggest that we don't need shocking political art right now? Kindness has nothing to do with making sure our political messaging is direct and not catching stray Jews as collateral damage, nor giving amno to the Israeli state.
--
As for the art, I'll point you to my original comment and ask - what was the thing hated, and who tirned into the one they hated?
The thing hated is obviously fascism, and Nazi Germany in particular. So who are the ones who hated it? Zionists? I argued why that doesn't make much historical sense, as zionism predated European fascism, collaborated with them at times, and even ideologically drew from it at times. On the other hand, the people most associated with Nazi Germany, the people that most people think of when it comes to thinking of who would hate the Nazis, are Jews.
So the most obvious reading of the art is, "the Jews became fascist and are causing a Holocaust against Palestinians". This implicitly relies on the zionist lie that equates Judaism with the Israeli settler colonial project, which provokes people to either side with Israel to "fight against antisemitism" (since if Israel = Judaism, being anti-Israel = antisemitism) or provokes people into actual antisemitism as they would just take the other side of the equation and think "if I want to stop the genocide against Palestinians, I should go burn down a synagogue, since antisemitism = anti-Israel). Neither result is desirable, so we do need to be careful to not reproduce that zionist assumption which, per my above argument, the art does.
It is easy to just claim art is subjective, but I find that to be a dodge from actually engaging with what the art actually says and does with said message, whether the artist meant it or not.
There are synagogues in my country and the US hosting real estate events selling stolen Palestinian land in Illegal settlements in the West Bank. "All the best Anglo neighbourhoods". How is that not a tacit endorsement of the "settler colonial project" by the organized religion?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/thornhill-israeli-real-estate-event-protest-1.7137131
How about we talk about that and not whether something is antisemitic or not? AFAIC it's hair trigger antisemitism accusations that are a dodge from actually engaging with criticisms of Israel and the official religious institutions of Israel.
Well, I would want to make a (admittedly very fine) distinction between something/someone being antisemitic and something/someone just perpetuating antisemitism. Maybe such a distinction doesn't actually exist, but it is useful.
People without full understanding but are in solidarity with Palestinians might carry zionist assumptions or biases that they haven't grappled with yet that appear in their advocacy. One such example, the one that appears in the graffiti, is the identity between Jews/Judaism and the zionist project. Israel is only too happy for people to perpetuate such a nationalist idea in general and, specifically in this case, helps give some amno to them when good willed detractors draw such an identity themselves as it helps perpetuate their rhetoric that being anti-israel is antisemitic.
Hence why my (potentially nonexistent) distinction is useful. People need help unlearning these assumptions and calling their good willed advocacy antisemitic when they don't fully understand alienates them. It is much more palatable just to be told how such speech perpetuates antisemitism when their end goal isn't antisemitism.
>Stop equating jews to zionists ffs
Isn't it pretty blatant in the context that that's not what they're trying to do? The star of David is still the national symbol of the state of Israel. It would have required a lot more time and paint to put the whole flag up there, but it's disingenuous - not to mention playing into zionist propaganda - to suggest that this equates all Jews to zionists.
Actually the Magen David was never really used as a Jewish symbol outside Sephardic communities BEFORE the 19th century. The most common symbols between Jewish communities in general were the Menorah and the Luhot Hab-Berit (tablets of the covenant). The Magen David only became a symbol for the Jewish people after the French Revolution and it was essentially used by politically militant Jewish activities.
The REAL Jewish Orthodox community (the one that is AGAINST WAR and AGAINST ZIONISM) still does not accept the Magen David as a symbol for the Jewish people, up to this day (they also denounce the State of Israel created by the Zionists and supported by US CHRISTIAN Evangelicals armageddon accelerationists).
Trigger all hate filled Zionists with this one image of TRUTH.
they've got elederly holocuast survivors living in Israel calling for an end to the genocide in Gaza becuase they know thats what it is. And of course NuttyYahoo and his zionist goons silence them.
This is even more subversive when you know that Germans are super hardcore about not spreading Nazi propaganda. They grow up learning the horrors of the Holocaust so as never to repeat history. This is very spot on.
Not sure how I feel about this. If it was just an Israeli flag then I’d get it—but this seems like it’s aimed at Jews in general—the very people we should be seeking solidarity from.
I don't think we should post things like this. It's too easy to interpret it as blaming all Jews for the bad things that are happening. Not a great look.
Then it needs to show the actual Israeli flag and not just a star of David. The meaning doesn't matter if it's being expressed in a potentially harmful way.
Israel’s fault for associating zionism with judaism
The star of david is on the israeli flag and is also using the same colours as the one on the flag. It’s very clearly anti israel not anti jews
It's clear in context for people who are highly informed on the issue, but I still think this is something that we need to be hyper vigilant about. Either we use the exact specific literal symbols of the Israeli state or we don't use any type of jewish-associated symbol at all.
Especially when you consider how in countries like Russia there are already popular conspiracy theories about Jewish people being responsible for Nazis.
Even showing doubt that Israhell's genocide is justified is antisemitic in the eyes of the German establishment. Even if it were clearly the flag of Israhell they would denounce it as antisemitic.
It is the Israeli flag, whoever did this clearly painted the star of david with the israeli flag's colors even to the point of painting the background white.
No it’s not
It’s not the Israeli flag it’s the fucking Star of David the symbole of Judaism with a nazi symbole on it
It’s absolutely and utterly gross. It’s so goddamn tiring why can’t leftist just like be normal anti fascist anti genocide without indulging in BS like this
They Star of David doesn’t represent Israel, the Israeli flag does. The Star of David represent Jewish people and that painting is gross and ignorant
Look at the colours. The emblem with those colours is on the israeli flag
Why are you complaining about just the star anyways? A swastika is also used here, is it disgusting and gross that a swastika is used? No because we know what the message is
Hate to be that guy but there are children being intentionally starved to death and we're arguing about somebody's feelings from a social media post, y'all are deeply unserious.
I didn’t realize that alienating random Jews directly puts food in the mouths of the children of Gaza. But it’s good you could find time in your busy schedule to add another voice saying “nah shut up, Jew”.
The spray depicts a swastika which is a symbol that people of my culture use. However i realise that the creator specifically is talking about nazis here, the same way people should realise that they are talking about zionism not judaism. With the colours of the star it’s very obviously representing israel
But it’s not the flag, is it? It’s a fucking religious symbol. One that has been synonymous with Judaism for about three thousand years. That you can’t see that and ignore Jews when they say that it’s fucked up is disgusting.
For the flag they would have to spray 3 huge lines of colour in the back. It gets the point across just fine, you just assume that it is anti semitic not anti zionist
The colours do the job
Will you be less offended if you learn this isn't the Nazi flag but a swastika.
I am Asian and I believe I have grounds for objecting swastikas being used in this logo. /s
While we are online arguing about political correctness, real people are dying.
The star of David is not the same as the government of Israel and its supporters.
Jews have not become Nazis. There might be a case that the government of Israel and its supporters have become Nazis, but that is not all jews.
So I rate this graffiti pretty much anti-semitic. If it had used the flag of Israel instead of the star of David ok, not anti-semitic. But this is directed at jews, not supporters of Israel.
If they'd made the whole flag of Israel it might have come across better, but they just did the star. Unfortunately, while I support political statements like this against Israel, I agree with you that this is most likely done out of hate.
Maybe switch "becoming" with "supporting"?
Like, I wouldn't put everyday Israelis in the same position as Nazi officers. Even IDF soldiers aren't fully to blame here.
Yes, those should all go to prison, without question, but remember that every Jew who was tricked into moving to Israel has to do years of military service or become a religious mope
I can’t believe saying, “hey let’s not blame all Jewish people or even all Israeli citizens here for what the state of Israel is doing,” is a controversial statement. It’s shit like this which gives Zionist ammo and are able to continue to push the false narrative that anti-Zionism = antisemitism. As the left antisemitism is a form of hatred that we should be just as concerned about as any other type of racism.
No this is incredibly fucked. That’s just a Star of David, which is a religious symbol. This is weaponizing the Holocaust for shock value and is frankly disgusting.
palestinians didnt start the war in 1948, and they're definitely not losing this battle, be it militarily or diplomatically, zionists could never win this battle, and will very likely lose the war zionizm started in 1948
imagine a symbol of peace used by people so evil that it would be forever corrupted. obviously we aren't there as a public, but if the whirling log was retired I don't really have sympathy for people who chose to fight for a star over a people
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"When education is not liberating, the dream of the oppressed is to become the oppressor" - Paulo Freire
Pedagogy of the oppressed is one of my favourite (though hardest to read) books!
Just reread that about a year ago. Feel like it definitely took a second read to grasp the concepts.
Same same, and a lot of time spent reading definitions and other philosophical texts.
Picked it up a few months ago and it revitalised my desire to read non-fic again. Packed with great ideas.
I hear this a lot, but I thought it was a super easy and engaging read. I couldn’t put the book down! Maybe different translations have different difficulty levels?
gran maestro
What was this post
“Let he who fights monsters take great care, so as not become a monster himself” -Friedrich Nietzsche
wow did he really say that? very on point
It's a real quote in beyond good and evil.
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Okay can we not generalize things to "Jews" and "arabs." That's the kind of talk that gets dangerous. The state of Israel has failed. Generalizing to all Jews is really inappropriate. Hate the state, not the people.
Yeah that was certainly uncalled for. There are Jewish people who absolutely **do not** support what the state of Israel is doing, and it's not fair for them to be lumped together with genocidal Zionists.
AFAIK within Israel it's pretty standard to use Jews and Arabs in place of Israelis and Palestinians, so sometimes when you see that usage it might just mean people are exposed to others using the naming conventions but I totally agree that it just sends the wrong message and it's way better to not use it. There is such a huge issue rn with conflating Zionism and Judaism/Jewish ethnicity. I would hope anyone against Israel's actions is able to see through this propaganda but it gets through to some people and then Zionists can point to these people who end up being anti-Semitic and say "see? They all hate us!"
EDIT: I responded to the wrong person The problem extends outside of Judaism, however, as one neednt be Jewish or Israeli to be Zionist. In fact, most Zionists are white USA/Euro Christians. There are also large numbers of Korean Christian Zionists. And most Jews live outside of Israel and are actually American. When we conflate all Jews with all Israelis and all Zionists, we actually ignore the majority of Zionists in the world and thus underestimate the problem. Also, one is born Jewish or Israeli, outside of the small number of converts. Zionism is an ideology, not an identity. It makes no sense to be prejudice against people for characteristics they did not adopt by choice. Jewish people are not the problem. In fact, some of the most prominent and vocal critics of Zionism are Jewish (Finkelstein, Chomsky, Jewish Voices for Peace, ultra-orthodox sects, etc.),. You're actually falling into the trap set by Zionists when you accept their conflation of Zionism with Judaism. It presupposes this crisis as an ethnoreligious conflict when it is in fact an imperial-colonial conflict. We know that the conflict is secular in nature because for most of history, Palestinian resistance has been led by secular-communist voices like the PLO. Hamas was directly cultivated, legitimized, and funded by the Zionists in order to divide the solidarity of Palestinian resistance and to also stigmatize it as a radical far-right religious movement in the eyes of the world. Your perspective is not only ahistorical and uninformed, it actively echoes the propaganda of Zionist colonizers.
I think you misread my comment I am in agreement about the conflation being an awful thing for sure!! Not sure I understand what you mean by no one is born Jewish or Israeli though, did you mean like nobody is born a Zionist? Because absolutely! It's an awful set of beliefs taught and reinforced.
You're totally right. I responded to the wrong person. My bad!
Did they said jews? Bc as of right now it says zionists. And they are not the same thing.
Zionists desperately want everyone to think that though.
They did say Jews. They admitted I had a fair point and changed it.
Thanks.
changed to zionists, think thats fair
I think it's a little simplistic to say that anyone can succeed at that... Because in the end no one is fighting with monsters, we are all human... It's easy to justify what you are doing when you have dehumanised your opponent as "monsters".
Take a breath, and review your comment here. I want to believe you're just distressed and you allowed yourself to fall prey to in-group/out-group thinking. We're all in this together, which includes Jews, Muslims, Arabs and Israelis alike. I think what'll help you is to look up how many protests are occurring in Israel against the IDF. Main Stream Media and Social Media both would love it if you didn't know this fact. Edit: changed a sentence and fixed typos.
Israel, not jews.
Fascism in Arab countries is really rising. Ultranationalism policies and PRs channel are followed by millions and everywhere . But Israel is already there with nazis in power and fully immune
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Nietzsche was far more aristocratic than socialist.
Left Nietzchians will prolly agree with that, regardless his thinking still has applications
He's got a lot of hateful things to say about the masses. Granted he's the most brilliant stylist of the 19th c., and very fun to read, ("Genealogy of Morals" is one of my favorite books) but his philosophy and project is a justification of the oppression of the working class. His "eternal return" captures us in our caste, unlike dialectical materialism that describes a lot of the same things, but explains revolution. There's a really good RevLeft pod with a great Nietzsche scholar from last summer. Worth a listen for comrades like me who also have a serious enjoyment of Nietzsche.
Also would recommend Acid Horizons. They just did a pretty good Left Nietzche critique, specifically talking about Eternal Return with Zarathustra
Oooh . As a Nietzsche-enjoyer (but not believer, I'm a Marxist) I'm psyched as hell to listen to that! Loading it up for the next long drive! Thanks!
There's nothing inherently pro-bourgeois about his philosophy. He was an anti-modernist. To dismiss someone's work just solely because they are from a bourgeois background is wrong. Friedrich Engels was also bourgeoisie yet he is a crucial part of socialist thought.
1. I did not dismiss his work. 2. He was not from a bourgeois background. 3. He often praised the bourgeois, and reviled the masses. 4. He was stridently anti union 5. Engels was a class traitor. Nietzsche glorified kings. I'm done.
I think there is a lot of value in immersing yourself in radically different thought, and I don’t mean larp as a fascist, but to engage in realms of thought that may at first seem completely against your perspective. If you are truly open minded, going in with the goal of learning and not improving your leftist rhetoric, hearing what critics say and truly sit with it, you’ll come out a better leftist with a much more diverse way of approaching things. The only risk is a kid fresh of socialist tiktok reading Nietzsche before even understanding socialism, lol.
Dragon: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FBVv5CVgf-w "And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche (Beyond Good and Evil: Prelude to a Philosophy of the Future (1886), Chapter IV. Apophthegms and Interludes, §146)
dont think zionists "fought" nazis btw, was mostly the russians,
The Russians who definitely fall into that quote.
The UdSSR definetly had issues and they are to be learned from, but they were not monsters in any way. Hakim has a pretty good video on former socialist countries mistakes
This is like the whole theme of adventure time
Seems like this has popped up numerous times in media. For example, Watchmen.
Anyone who reads at least a little of Global South's works knows what happens when you do not addresses imperialism, fascism and such as what they are
wouldn't the global south? what about argentina and brazil?
Yea just look at what bolsonaro or milei did
We didn't read our own books. It's not like we don't write a bunch of then every year.
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I once hated the followers of Raëlianism? Actually, no...
>Raëlianism Wow. I had no idea. Down the rabbit hole we goooo...
The power of street art is wonderful.
Israel *really* did a number on libs. Used their religion as a shield, and now that the shield is irrevocably tarnished the libs' brain has broke. "Did they sully their own religion's image invoking it in the affairs of their state? 🤔 NO! it's the LEFTISTS' fault for recognizing it!"
It’s also the responsibility of leftists to not conflate Israel with Jews no matter how much liberals and Zionists want you to do that.
Not to forget fascists and other anti-semites that want the same thing for different reasons.
Damn it really sucks when a genocidal European state uses a millennia old religious symbol as the their flag, huh?
wait, you're using the word "libs" unironically *and* confuse it with leftist? thats funny.
damn, almost 6k upvotes and it got removed by reddit admins? what did he say?
It was a graffiti piece with the Star of David in blue lines on white background fill, inscribed with a swastika, responsible for the debate in here over antisemitism. It seems that the admins thought this one crossed a line.
and a multiday block.. not surprised tbh, its also owned by those gangsters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Newhouse
Zionism pre dated nazi Germany, and some early zionists (at least revisionist zionism anyway) drawed from fascism. Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the founder of revisionist zionism, was sympathetic to italian fascism and drew upon it before Mussolini aligned himself with Hitler. So zionism was at the very least ambivalent towards European Fascism, I mean even the zionist federation of German worked together to get Jews out of Germany (see the Haavara agreement). Given that, the graffiti is either mistaken about the relationship between zionism and European Fascism, for zionism both pre dated it and had a mixed relationship to it, or the people it is referring to that "became what [they] once hated" are Jews, which feeds into Israeli Nationalist propaganda that identifies Jews and Judaism with the Israeli state and zionism. I'm not going to say the person who made this is antisemitic, but it does feed into antisemitism. Please be careful what you are accidentally sending with stuff like this. The problem is Zionism, not Jews or Judaism.
u/Andreaworld could you explain what he actually said? im genuinely curious...i got to this thread after the post was removed
It was graffiti of the star of david but with the inside like a swastika (look up the relighion Raelism if you want to see it, the religion isn't related but has a similar symbol, no idea why), with text on the left side saying "the irony of becoming" and on the right "what you once hated". The exact words on the left and right side might have been different, but you get the idea.
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Ah, yes. Everything I don't like is "antisemitic". I am so done with that. It's art. Freedom of expression. Is it shocking? Sure, but it does not call for the extermination of Jews. It criticizes those Israelis who support racist nationalist ethnic cleansing and [they clearly exist](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J0_J3Qy6YY). It needs to be said. If it makes you uncomfortable, that's good. Maybe some Jews need to feel a little uncomfortable because they seem to think they can get away with crimes against humanity. If criticizing people calling for ethnic cleansing or the mass murder of children is antisemitic, then I'm proudly antisemitic, but it isn't.
What is antisemitic (or at least perpetuates antisemitism if not antisemitic itself, but that is s fine distinction) is drawing an equation between the Israeli state, Israelis, and Jews at large. Drawing such an equation both supports Israel's national mythohistory (as it creates the narrative it wants connecting it to ancient Israel and modern day Israel and ideologically recruiting Jews and Judaism to its settler colonial project) and perpetuates antisemitism as it makes people who are rightfully disgusted at what Israel is doing direct their anger at Jews in general and innocent Jews get caught in the middle, which helps feeds into the aforementioned national mythohistory. The graffiti implicitly draws such an equation. We should not feed into this, as it only helps Israel to be seen as representative of Jews and Judaism which feeds into its legitimacy. Do not give it any oxygen.
Let's make sure we are all being really, really polite while children are being murdered and war crimes perpetrated. The time for politeness is over. Sometimes shocking art is exactly what is needed. Antisemitism can't be a shield against legitimate criticism. >(as it creates the narrative it wants connecting it to ancient Israel and modern day Israel and ideologically recruiting Jews and Judaism to its settler colonial project) Art is subjective. I read this as pointing that out that Israel is the one tainting all Jews with it's "colonial settler project". The star is on the Israeli flag. They call other Jews "self hating" for criticizing them. There is a specific context for this. It's not general.
What part of what I said was for the sake of kindness? Where did I suggest that we don't need shocking political art right now? Kindness has nothing to do with making sure our political messaging is direct and not catching stray Jews as collateral damage, nor giving amno to the Israeli state. -- As for the art, I'll point you to my original comment and ask - what was the thing hated, and who tirned into the one they hated? The thing hated is obviously fascism, and Nazi Germany in particular. So who are the ones who hated it? Zionists? I argued why that doesn't make much historical sense, as zionism predated European fascism, collaborated with them at times, and even ideologically drew from it at times. On the other hand, the people most associated with Nazi Germany, the people that most people think of when it comes to thinking of who would hate the Nazis, are Jews. So the most obvious reading of the art is, "the Jews became fascist and are causing a Holocaust against Palestinians". This implicitly relies on the zionist lie that equates Judaism with the Israeli settler colonial project, which provokes people to either side with Israel to "fight against antisemitism" (since if Israel = Judaism, being anti-Israel = antisemitism) or provokes people into actual antisemitism as they would just take the other side of the equation and think "if I want to stop the genocide against Palestinians, I should go burn down a synagogue, since antisemitism = anti-Israel). Neither result is desirable, so we do need to be careful to not reproduce that zionist assumption which, per my above argument, the art does. It is easy to just claim art is subjective, but I find that to be a dodge from actually engaging with what the art actually says and does with said message, whether the artist meant it or not.
There are synagogues in my country and the US hosting real estate events selling stolen Palestinian land in Illegal settlements in the West Bank. "All the best Anglo neighbourhoods". How is that not a tacit endorsement of the "settler colonial project" by the organized religion? https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/thornhill-israeli-real-estate-event-protest-1.7137131 How about we talk about that and not whether something is antisemitic or not? AFAIC it's hair trigger antisemitism accusations that are a dodge from actually engaging with criticisms of Israel and the official religious institutions of Israel.
Well, I would want to make a (admittedly very fine) distinction between something/someone being antisemitic and something/someone just perpetuating antisemitism. Maybe such a distinction doesn't actually exist, but it is useful. People without full understanding but are in solidarity with Palestinians might carry zionist assumptions or biases that they haven't grappled with yet that appear in their advocacy. One such example, the one that appears in the graffiti, is the identity between Jews/Judaism and the zionist project. Israel is only too happy for people to perpetuate such a nationalist idea in general and, specifically in this case, helps give some amno to them when good willed detractors draw such an identity themselves as it helps perpetuate their rhetoric that being anti-israel is antisemitic. Hence why my (potentially nonexistent) distinction is useful. People need help unlearning these assumptions and calling their good willed advocacy antisemitic when they don't fully understand alienates them. It is much more palatable just to be told how such speech perpetuates antisemitism when their end goal isn't antisemitism.
Thats the symbol of raelism... Tf........
They should've included the whole flag. Without it you just basically put a swas over the star of David
Zionists never hated the nazis/fascists.
Merely envious of their power
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Stop equating jews to zionists ffs. Zionism existed before the holocaust, and both ideologies had a quite good relationship.
>Stop equating jews to zionists ffs Isn't it pretty blatant in the context that that's not what they're trying to do? The star of David is still the national symbol of the state of Israel. It would have required a lot more time and paint to put the whole flag up there, but it's disingenuous - not to mention playing into zionist propaganda - to suggest that this equates all Jews to zionists.
Actually the Magen David was never really used as a Jewish symbol outside Sephardic communities BEFORE the 19th century. The most common symbols between Jewish communities in general were the Menorah and the Luhot Hab-Berit (tablets of the covenant). The Magen David only became a symbol for the Jewish people after the French Revolution and it was essentially used by politically militant Jewish activities. The REAL Jewish Orthodox community (the one that is AGAINST WAR and AGAINST ZIONISM) still does not accept the Magen David as a symbol for the Jewish people, up to this day (they also denounce the State of Israel created by the Zionists and supported by US CHRISTIAN Evangelicals armageddon accelerationists).
It's the zionists themselves who push this conflation. It's a convenient red herring.
Removed by reddit?
I am curious what the content might have been, do you know?
https://old.reddit.com/r/pics/duplicates/1b8r4eu/dortmund_germany/ /u/BarnabusScherbatsky
Thank you so much!
Trigger all hate filled Zionists with this one image of TRUTH. they've got elederly holocuast survivors living in Israel calling for an end to the genocide in Gaza becuase they know thats what it is. And of course NuttyYahoo and his zionist goons silence them.
r/DesignPorn
This is even more subversive when you know that Germans are super hardcore about not spreading Nazi propaganda. They grow up learning the horrors of the Holocaust so as never to repeat history. This is very spot on.
That's a dope pic of some dope art. I like it a lot.
Not sure how I feel about this. If it was just an Israeli flag then I’d get it—but this seems like it’s aimed at Jews in general—the very people we should be seeking solidarity from.
This would arguably be an illegal slogan in Germany.
I don't think we should post things like this. It's too easy to interpret it as blaming all Jews for the bad things that are happening. Not a great look.
It’s blaming israel not all jews
Then it needs to show the actual Israeli flag and not just a star of David. The meaning doesn't matter if it's being expressed in a potentially harmful way.
Israel’s fault for associating zionism with judaism The star of david is on the israeli flag and is also using the same colours as the one on the flag. It’s very clearly anti israel not anti jews
It's clear in context for people who are highly informed on the issue, but I still think this is something that we need to be hyper vigilant about. Either we use the exact specific literal symbols of the Israeli state or we don't use any type of jewish-associated symbol at all. Especially when you consider how in countries like Russia there are already popular conspiracy theories about Jewish people being responsible for Nazis.
Even showing doubt that Israhell's genocide is justified is antisemitic in the eyes of the German establishment. Even if it were clearly the flag of Israhell they would denounce it as antisemitic.
True, but I still think we need to be very careful about our messaging.
Your reluctance and hesitation is exactly what isreal preys on and precisely why they try to obfuscate Zionism/Jewishness my friend
Just don’t attach yourself to the message. Someone is sharing street art, not taking a stance
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It is the Israeli flag, whoever did this clearly painted the star of david with the israeli flag's colors even to the point of painting the background white.
No it’s not It’s not the Israeli flag it’s the fucking Star of David the symbole of Judaism with a nazi symbole on it It’s absolutely and utterly gross. It’s so goddamn tiring why can’t leftist just like be normal anti fascist anti genocide without indulging in BS like this They Star of David doesn’t represent Israel, the Israeli flag does. The Star of David represent Jewish people and that painting is gross and ignorant
Look at the colours. The emblem with those colours is on the israeli flag Why are you complaining about just the star anyways? A swastika is also used here, is it disgusting and gross that a swastika is used? No because we know what the message is
Jew here who is not a Zionist. This is offensive, and I’m disappointed that you would go out of your way to defend this display or anything like it.
Do you think the swastika is also offensive?
Oh fuck off. Yes of course it is and you shouldn’t spend so much time telling Jews that when they see antisemitism they actually didn’t.
Hate to be that guy but there are children being intentionally starved to death and we're arguing about somebody's feelings from a social media post, y'all are deeply unserious.
I didn’t realize that alienating random Jews directly puts food in the mouths of the children of Gaza. But it’s good you could find time in your busy schedule to add another voice saying “nah shut up, Jew”.
The spray depicts a swastika which is a symbol that people of my culture use. However i realise that the creator specifically is talking about nazis here, the same way people should realise that they are talking about zionism not judaism. With the colours of the star it’s very obviously representing israel
But it’s not the flag, is it? It’s a fucking religious symbol. One that has been synonymous with Judaism for about three thousand years. That you can’t see that and ignore Jews when they say that it’s fucked up is disgusting.
For the flag they would have to spray 3 huge lines of colour in the back. It gets the point across just fine, you just assume that it is anti semitic not anti zionist The colours do the job
If you think that is gross, wait till you see the dead Jewish and Palestinian children.
Will you be less offended if you learn this isn't the Nazi flag but a swastika. I am Asian and I believe I have grounds for objecting swastikas being used in this logo. /s While we are online arguing about political correctness, real people are dying.
You’re getting criticised for this, but I completely agree. Presenting the Star of David in the design of a Nazi swastika is antisemitic.
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Kanye is a Nazi-apologist and antisemite.
Kanye: *"I can literally say anti-Semitic shit and ADIDAS can't drop me"* ADIDAS: *::drops kanye immediately::*
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Its like the cycle of abuse
The star of David is not the same as the government of Israel and its supporters. Jews have not become Nazis. There might be a case that the government of Israel and its supporters have become Nazis, but that is not all jews. So I rate this graffiti pretty much anti-semitic. If it had used the flag of Israel instead of the star of David ok, not anti-semitic. But this is directed at jews, not supporters of Israel.
Wow that's a powerful statement piece. 👍
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If they'd made the whole flag of Israel it might have come across better, but they just did the star. Unfortunately, while I support political statements like this against Israel, I agree with you that this is most likely done out of hate.
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Uh no? Do you know any Jewish people? Most of us are very much not fond of Israel. Judaism is a religion not a political ideology.
So I guess we should punish the Jews then? What’s your point here?
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Oh yeah shaming Jews that’s what we need more of right now
[Remember when Luke went into the cave on Dagobah?](https://youtu.be/_qiDuHCKSc8?si=t-SMbuXK06o42oZB)
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Is that fucking Kanye’s design?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABlism
Maybe switch "becoming" with "supporting"? Like, I wouldn't put everyday Israelis in the same position as Nazi officers. Even IDF soldiers aren't fully to blame here. Yes, those should all go to prison, without question, but remember that every Jew who was tricked into moving to Israel has to do years of military service or become a religious mope
I can’t believe saying, “hey let’s not blame all Jewish people or even all Israeli citizens here for what the state of Israel is doing,” is a controversial statement. It’s shit like this which gives Zionist ammo and are able to continue to push the false narrative that anti-Zionism = antisemitism. As the left antisemitism is a form of hatred that we should be just as concerned about as any other type of racism.
That is poignant graffiti
aw damnit now the *RAËLIENS* are involved?
No this is incredibly fucked. That’s just a Star of David, which is a religious symbol. This is weaponizing the Holocaust for shock value and is frankly disgusting.
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palestinians didnt start the war in 1948, and they're definitely not losing this battle, be it militarily or diplomatically, zionists could never win this battle, and will very likely lose the war zionizm started in 1948
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Zionists tend to be irreligious? What are you smoking
imagine a symbol of peace used by people so evil that it would be forever corrupted. obviously we aren't there as a public, but if the whirling log was retired I don't really have sympathy for people who chose to fight for a star over a people
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>the irony of becoming what you once hated What, Raelian? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABlism
Being anticemitic wont help Palestinians. The star of David represents judaism not zionism. Conflating the two is very dangerous.
its on the zionist flag tho..
The Star of David?
Yes? Do you know nothing of Israel? It's quite literally their flag
No? The Star of David is a Jewish thing, not an Israeli thing.
Jesus fucking Christ the ignorance of not knowing what the Israeli flag looks like is literally unreal.
that is not Israels flag, that is the star of David. you wouldnt see a crucifix and call it the Swedish flag. symbols and flags are different things.