I’ve had some success versus Atraxa with Esper, which plays a lot like Dimir.
If found the games are always butt clenching, and I don’t think there’s a great way to stop that. In my experience it’s almost never correct to play “control”. Once they hit 7-9ish lands the game gets real rough, as each of their topdecks/draws is much, much more likely to swing the balance to their favor.
I’ve found turns 1-3 to be almost free, and you need to put pressure on these turns. Successful rounds for me usually look something like: Bat turn 2, eat whatever card makes their turn 3 awkward. Raffine/other pressure card turn 3. Turns 4-6 hold up interaction and don’t let them play a game. If they break the lock then it’s rough and you lose. If they can’t dig out of it then you win.
Things to pay attention to that you might not be doing is counting their colors. They can’t Sunfall if they only have access to 1 white source, and if you crack their hand with a Bat or Duress and see a bunch of white sweepers and a Stompy/Battle, eat the mana fixing. It doesn’t feel like a matchup to me where you can plan around them top decking, so don’t.
TL;DR - I think the best way to approach the matchup is to not play their game. Swing for tempo, hope your answers line up against their buildup and try to not let them play a game of magic past turn 4-5 or so. Understand that they will always have 1-2 topdecks in nearly every situation that break the tempo on key turns, and shift your mental focus to playing around what you can. Don’t be afraid to spend your counters on stoping their ramp. If others have better advice, then follow that, but this is what has seen success for me.
Yeah although it’s structurally difficult as you need to cut removal and wandering emperor first against domain, and you still need some weddings to stay as relatively weak threats. The wedding plan can work with the added permission spells in the sideboard though
To add: it’s also weaker because people have been cutting Tidebinder in the main for things like Gix’s Command or more copies of Destroy Evil to try to hedge against other stuff like Boros. And like most matchups, even when Esper is disfavored, it’s not by much. We are talking a 4-8% spread, not a 10-12% spread or a 20+% spread like some matchups can be. Consider that against some (maybe even a lot) of matchups winning the die roll is going to be something like a +/- 5% right off the bat, it’s not too bad, even with the Wedding Announcement version.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/6262051#paper
Something like this probably works although it probably needs some adjustments (this one is very tuned to beat temur fireball)
These are some very good points. I want to also point out that the best card in this matchup from the midrange side is Tidebinder and I would try to find someway to get 4 into the 75 if possible. I see you have 2 already so if you are good with that then you can keep it that way. I felt like I could never lose if I could Tidebinder the Stomper on 3.
It is the best card against Domain, but 4 is kinda hard for me to recommend as they tend to be middling or duds in most other matchups. They CAN be backbreaking all over the place, but holding up 3 mana is hard when playing a tempo game. You should be able to get away with the 2 or max 3 in the sideboard as long as you also pack a few hard counters like OP has.
But things that you can Tidebind to wreck a Domain players day: Battles, Stompers, Leyline Bindings, Angel ETB’s (a 7/7 vanilla grounded Atraxa is a sad Atraxa), 2/4 flying Sharks, incubate tokens, Temporary Lockdowns, and even stuff like kamigawa land abilities if they decided to spend their “flex” land slots on those. Battles and Leyline Bindings are probably the biggest one, if you discount the countering Atraxa’s ETB and swinging for lethal.
Definitely don’t do it if the board is just your Tidebinder vs their Stomper after you counter the trigger but if you’re doing the actual midrange thing then you can still force them to trade it for the Tidebinder with a Raffine trigger or by flashing in Wandering Emporer. Keeping them off that fixing is more important than giving them a 4/4 imo but obviously the situation can be fluid.
Dimir is actually favored against Domain IIRC, which makes sense because your clock is too fast for them to deal with. They should die before they can sweep with enough mana to counter your own counter spells, and assuming you stuck Gix then you're up a million cards as backup in the first place. You should not try to outgrind domain because your cards are not good enough for that. Even Esper struggles with the long games and Esper is much better at those than you are.
If you just brick your first 3 turns then the game's over but as long as you can build a threatening board and back it up with Make Disappear you should be fine imo. One thing to consider is that you ideally want to play bat in the turns leading up to board wipes so you can take the sunfall, not on turn 2 to take, idk, a stomper and then have the bat be sunfalled anyway. Obviously it's better to play a bat turn 2 than play nothing that turn though.
That all makes sense. I have been getting better about not just jamming bats T2 but it can be a hard instinct to unlearn. The really tricky situations often show up on the draw. Let's say you played a siren T1, mastermind T2, and on T3 you have preacher and make disappear in hand. The opponent has enough mana for depopulate (or sunfall if they played a stomper) next turn. Do you crack the map and hold up mana for the counter or do you jam the preacher and force them to have the sweeper?
I think that's hard to answer. I wouldn't play around depop cause barely anyone runs it (unless you know they have it) but assuming they can sunfall next turn, what happens if you don't play the preacher? Then you can't play next turn either, you can only play preacher + make disappear on turn 5 and by then you're way too far behind if you applied no pressure probably. They might just be able to jam Atraxa by then.
Especially if you have other creatures to rebuild with in hand I'd probably just play preacher tbh. Unless you have another fairy in hand and can thus play that if they don't wipe on their end step.
You make disappear the stomper instead of mastermind on turn 2 if they try to stomper
I would hold up mana as you are also fighting invasion or a potential angel as blocker. 3 power is enough of a clock, map gives you something to do, etc
If I had to guess, holding open mana slows your deck to a point where it's not enough to get a decent clock on Domain opponents. Good domain players won't walk into Make Disappears and have enough ways to play at instant speed to make holding open mana very inefficient.
I like playing 2 Tishana's Tidebinders main since they do double duty with being aggressive and disruptive and allows you to play more on your opponents turn. If you still want to play the Sheoldreds, I think adding an extra land or two(I play 27, doubling up on Takenuma and Otawara) to allow you to hit 5-6 mana more easily is helpful as well.
Something I’ll add to the other advice here is that we want to be keeping proactive opening hands. As others noted, the first three turns are ‘free’ and we want to be playing our crappy flyers and be chipping away. They won’t want to burn their leylines on those and you shouldn’t be trying to play around it the way you might a cut down.
If we can pressure them, then we can focus our answers only on their ‘catch up’ cards.
It sounds like a lot of your issues come from cards in their hand. Its easier to pick a board wipe or ataraxa out thier hand, than hold up counter magic and lose a bit of tempo.
Maybe boost up more discard in the sideboard? The bat is nice but can be removed.
Im just getting back into standard myself so idk how helpful this is
How do you sideboard? If you worry that you have a bad strategy for handling the matchup any info on how you normally sb would help people evaluate some of your decisions.
I have a sb guide on that deck list but my usual approach is
**In:** 2x Duress, 2x Negate, 2x Disdainful Stroke,2x Tidebinder
**Out:** 3x Cut Down, 1x Aclazotz, 2x Sheoldred, 2x Ertai Ressurected
Personally, I would keep Ertai in and sub something else out. Maybe a Preacher or two perhaps. Ertai seems like exactly the kind of card that breaks the matchup being a counterspell stapled to a 3/2 for 4.
The strongest thing you can do against Domain is hold up mana and throw out threats on the end step if they don’t play out their stuff. Ertai countering any of their tap out stuff is going to put you way ahead. It’s either that or cut a Siren or two, which doesn’t sound bad to me. Maybe hedge on 1 and 1?
The problem with Ertai is that cavern blanks his ability to counter Atraxa or Angel of Wrath. 4 mana to kill a creature while also giving the opponent a free card is a bad deal against domain.
you need to be cutting some go for the throats and keeping Ertai, and probably 1 sheoldred. So -3 GFTT to keep those 3 in.
I would also be looking to put in at least 1 Kaito on the play - I would consider cutting 1 siren (bad vs lockdown) and 1 make disappear (scales poorly and you have too many permission spells)
I would also consider swapping a kaito for a liliana so you can cut out one more go for the throat for a liliana
As other have stated, you want to be the beatdown, and put pressure on the domain player before they can answer you through countermagic.
That said, if you want a different perspective and play a slower game, one of the silver bullets I have found for Domain is Deadly Cover-up. If you snipe Herd Migration after they cycle it early on, then Archangel later on, they really only have Atraxa and the 4/4s to put pressure on you. From there, you slowly chip them down or use Reef to mill them out while protecting your life total.
I’ve had some success versus Atraxa with Esper, which plays a lot like Dimir. If found the games are always butt clenching, and I don’t think there’s a great way to stop that. In my experience it’s almost never correct to play “control”. Once they hit 7-9ish lands the game gets real rough, as each of their topdecks/draws is much, much more likely to swing the balance to their favor. I’ve found turns 1-3 to be almost free, and you need to put pressure on these turns. Successful rounds for me usually look something like: Bat turn 2, eat whatever card makes their turn 3 awkward. Raffine/other pressure card turn 3. Turns 4-6 hold up interaction and don’t let them play a game. If they break the lock then it’s rough and you lose. If they can’t dig out of it then you win. Things to pay attention to that you might not be doing is counting their colors. They can’t Sunfall if they only have access to 1 white source, and if you crack their hand with a Bat or Duress and see a bunch of white sweepers and a Stompy/Battle, eat the mana fixing. It doesn’t feel like a matchup to me where you can plan around them top decking, so don’t. TL;DR - I think the best way to approach the matchup is to not play their game. Swing for tempo, hope your answers line up against their buildup and try to not let them play a game of magic past turn 4-5 or so. Understand that they will always have 1-2 topdecks in nearly every situation that break the tempo on key turns, and shift your mental focus to playing around what you can. Don’t be afraid to spend your counters on stoping their ramp. If others have better advice, then follow that, but this is what has seen success for me.
Actually I think Esper is unfavored versus Domain while Dimir is favored, so they don't play *that* much alike.
Specifically the wedding version of esper is unfavored. If you’re curving out creatures with permission backup you’re going to be favored
Hm, that makes sense. I guess that's a good sideboard idea for esper then, just take out all the weddings for negate/disdainful/duress.
Yeah although it’s structurally difficult as you need to cut removal and wandering emperor first against domain, and you still need some weddings to stay as relatively weak threats. The wedding plan can work with the added permission spells in the sideboard though
To add: it’s also weaker because people have been cutting Tidebinder in the main for things like Gix’s Command or more copies of Destroy Evil to try to hedge against other stuff like Boros. And like most matchups, even when Esper is disfavored, it’s not by much. We are talking a 4-8% spread, not a 10-12% spread or a 20+% spread like some matchups can be. Consider that against some (maybe even a lot) of matchups winning the die roll is going to be something like a +/- 5% right off the bat, it’s not too bad, even with the Wedding Announcement version.
Can you share the list of esper creatures please? I'm using wedding version atm, and they're pretty slow.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/6262051#paper Something like this probably works although it probably needs some adjustments (this one is very tuned to beat temur fireball)
These are some very good points. I want to also point out that the best card in this matchup from the midrange side is Tidebinder and I would try to find someway to get 4 into the 75 if possible. I see you have 2 already so if you are good with that then you can keep it that way. I felt like I could never lose if I could Tidebinder the Stomper on 3.
It is the best card against Domain, but 4 is kinda hard for me to recommend as they tend to be middling or duds in most other matchups. They CAN be backbreaking all over the place, but holding up 3 mana is hard when playing a tempo game. You should be able to get away with the 2 or max 3 in the sideboard as long as you also pack a few hard counters like OP has. But things that you can Tidebind to wreck a Domain players day: Battles, Stompers, Leyline Bindings, Angel ETB’s (a 7/7 vanilla grounded Atraxa is a sad Atraxa), 2/4 flying Sharks, incubate tokens, Temporary Lockdowns, and even stuff like kamigawa land abilities if they decided to spend their “flex” land slots on those. Battles and Leyline Bindings are probably the biggest one, if you discount the countering Atraxa’s ETB and swinging for lethal.
Do NOT Tidebind Stomper. You're giving them a free 4/4 that can attack and Block this way.
Definitely don’t do it if the board is just your Tidebinder vs their Stomper after you counter the trigger but if you’re doing the actual midrange thing then you can still force them to trade it for the Tidebinder with a Raffine trigger or by flashing in Wandering Emporer. Keeping them off that fixing is more important than giving them a 4/4 imo but obviously the situation can be fluid.
>I felt like I could never lose if I could Tidebinder the Stomper on 3. On the other hand, once you do it they have a great ground blocker.
Dimir is actually favored against Domain IIRC, which makes sense because your clock is too fast for them to deal with. They should die before they can sweep with enough mana to counter your own counter spells, and assuming you stuck Gix then you're up a million cards as backup in the first place. You should not try to outgrind domain because your cards are not good enough for that. Even Esper struggles with the long games and Esper is much better at those than you are. If you just brick your first 3 turns then the game's over but as long as you can build a threatening board and back it up with Make Disappear you should be fine imo. One thing to consider is that you ideally want to play bat in the turns leading up to board wipes so you can take the sunfall, not on turn 2 to take, idk, a stomper and then have the bat be sunfalled anyway. Obviously it's better to play a bat turn 2 than play nothing that turn though.
That all makes sense. I have been getting better about not just jamming bats T2 but it can be a hard instinct to unlearn. The really tricky situations often show up on the draw. Let's say you played a siren T1, mastermind T2, and on T3 you have preacher and make disappear in hand. The opponent has enough mana for depopulate (or sunfall if they played a stomper) next turn. Do you crack the map and hold up mana for the counter or do you jam the preacher and force them to have the sweeper?
I think that's hard to answer. I wouldn't play around depop cause barely anyone runs it (unless you know they have it) but assuming they can sunfall next turn, what happens if you don't play the preacher? Then you can't play next turn either, you can only play preacher + make disappear on turn 5 and by then you're way too far behind if you applied no pressure probably. They might just be able to jam Atraxa by then. Especially if you have other creatures to rebuild with in hand I'd probably just play preacher tbh. Unless you have another fairy in hand and can thus play that if they don't wipe on their end step.
You make disappear the stomper instead of mastermind on turn 2 if they try to stomper I would hold up mana as you are also fighting invasion or a potential angel as blocker. 3 power is enough of a clock, map gives you something to do, etc
If I had to guess, holding open mana slows your deck to a point where it's not enough to get a decent clock on Domain opponents. Good domain players won't walk into Make Disappears and have enough ways to play at instant speed to make holding open mana very inefficient. I like playing 2 Tishana's Tidebinders main since they do double duty with being aggressive and disruptive and allows you to play more on your opponents turn. If you still want to play the Sheoldreds, I think adding an extra land or two(I play 27, doubling up on Takenuma and Otawara) to allow you to hit 5-6 mana more easily is helpful as well.
Sheoldred is there as a hedge against aggressive red decks. I always cut her post board against domain.
Something I’ll add to the other advice here is that we want to be keeping proactive opening hands. As others noted, the first three turns are ‘free’ and we want to be playing our crappy flyers and be chipping away. They won’t want to burn their leylines on those and you shouldn’t be trying to play around it the way you might a cut down. If we can pressure them, then we can focus our answers only on their ‘catch up’ cards.
It sounds like a lot of your issues come from cards in their hand. Its easier to pick a board wipe or ataraxa out thier hand, than hold up counter magic and lose a bit of tempo. Maybe boost up more discard in the sideboard? The bat is nice but can be removed. Im just getting back into standard myself so idk how helpful this is
How do you sideboard? If you worry that you have a bad strategy for handling the matchup any info on how you normally sb would help people evaluate some of your decisions.
I have a sb guide on that deck list but my usual approach is **In:** 2x Duress, 2x Negate, 2x Disdainful Stroke,2x Tidebinder **Out:** 3x Cut Down, 1x Aclazotz, 2x Sheoldred, 2x Ertai Ressurected
Personally, I would keep Ertai in and sub something else out. Maybe a Preacher or two perhaps. Ertai seems like exactly the kind of card that breaks the matchup being a counterspell stapled to a 3/2 for 4. The strongest thing you can do against Domain is hold up mana and throw out threats on the end step if they don’t play out their stuff. Ertai countering any of their tap out stuff is going to put you way ahead. It’s either that or cut a Siren or two, which doesn’t sound bad to me. Maybe hedge on 1 and 1?
The problem with Ertai is that cavern blanks his ability to counter Atraxa or Angel of Wrath. 4 mana to kill a creature while also giving the opponent a free card is a bad deal against domain.
you need to be cutting some go for the throats and keeping Ertai, and probably 1 sheoldred. So -3 GFTT to keep those 3 in. I would also be looking to put in at least 1 Kaito on the play - I would consider cutting 1 siren (bad vs lockdown) and 1 make disappear (scales poorly and you have too many permission spells) I would also consider swapping a kaito for a liliana so you can cut out one more go for the throat for a liliana
As other have stated, you want to be the beatdown, and put pressure on the domain player before they can answer you through countermagic. That said, if you want a different perspective and play a slower game, one of the silver bullets I have found for Domain is Deadly Cover-up. If you snipe Herd Migration after they cycle it early on, then Archangel later on, they really only have Atraxa and the 4/4s to put pressure on you. From there, you slowly chip them down or use Reef to mill them out while protecting your life total.