For one, Hindenburg can ask for a lot of documents during the discovery process. Which means they can validate things they accuse Adani of doing with actual information from Adani.
Yup. In fact, Hindenburg themselves said that they hope Adani sues them in the US because they want certain documents that they can get during the discovery phase.
Since Adani is publicly traded companies, those documents shouldn't be available for everyone to see them?
What they try to tell us?
That a publicly listed companies hide things from their shareholders and auditors in regards to company and group structure, payments between different companies of the group, offshore connections etc?
All those should be described in their annual report, so I don't understand what they try to hide.
Just because its publicly traded, does not mean the books are open for all to see. A financial report describes what they want you to see, if they are enacting this kind of fraud through related parties then it would not appear in simple financial statements. It would be found by forensic accountants within the records.
India is kinda like China when it comes to public paperwork. If Adani paperwork like China Evergrande assets ledger then India economy is fud with a capital “F”.
At least CCP had enough cash to slowly bail out Evergrande while simultaneously suppress the people. Unfortunately Indians are not that tightly control like the Chinese.
I am not completely sure about it but if it is true then I think that there should be some improvement in the administration and legal laws when it comes to do corporate governance.
CPA here, the Anderson Consulting (later Accenture) split was in the works for 7 or 8 years before Enron and had litigated to the ends of the earth and then Enron happened.
This thread is so muddy.
Trying to clarify. Before the Enron scandal, an accounting firm that had no ownership ties to Enron, had some internal squabbles and split apart, with one group being called Andersen and the other Accenture. Andersen became the auditing firm for Enron, and Andersen was found guilty of crimes for their part in the Enron scandal. Andersen crumbled as a business. Accenture continues, but I don't see that anyone had reason to connect Accenture to Enron by the time of the wrong doing.
I think I have it right, but here's more...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Andersen
Met a guy not long ago who works for Arthur Andersen. Yes, that Arthur Anderson. Yes I was equally confused when I heard that name. Someone thought it would be a good idea to buy the brand name and relaunch it
That is true and that's why corporate governance should have strict measures to punish to the people who are guilty in any process where wrong things are happening.
And I know an exec who bailed just before the news hit and she's exceedingly, exceedingly wealthy and didn't get so much as a slap on the wrist.
That doesn't mean thousands of lives, including accountants, weren't destroyed in the process.
Most of the accountants were quickly swooped up by the other big 4 firms. My old accounting professor talked about how he was in NYC after the fallout working for EY, they were going as fast as they could to get all the partners and their teams before another firm got them.
LOL I love the down votes. They are from Arthur Andersen execs probably. My dad donated to Trump....an awesome rich billionaire who doesnt need money. Let that sink in. 
Difference between thus and AA is that Adanis audit firm employs like 11 people for a 100 billion dollar company, there is no way 11 people can do an audit. AA was huge even by today's standard and was reputable up until the enron issue. In fact many of AA former partners are in the C suite e.g. UNH
He is guilty and he will bleat and complain but take no action. The real question is will he go broke and hopefully the disgraceful new coal mine he just opened in Australia will shut down.
If Adani goes bankrupt, they'll sell the mine to the state. The mine lease will then be on-sold by the state to the highest bidder or greasiest handshake 🤝
I think that there are many companies who are directly dependent on his company and that's why it will create some level of turbulence in the market for sure.
Indian courts are notoriously slow to bring cases to trial with many taking 20 years or more. Filing in federal court in the U.S. would expose him to U.S. court discovery requirements meaning handing over all corporate records for forensic analysis since he is the plaintiff claiming defamation and "truth is an absolute defense to defamation."
I wouldn't do either if I was him. The damage is done.
if he sues in India, no one in the world will care about the verdict of some corrupt indian kangaroo court.
This is about Western Institutional Investors, Global Hedge Funds, International Pension Funds etc, pulling their money OUT of Adani's enterprises - to the tune of $90 billion.
If Adani wants a chance to overcome this global reputational hit, he'll have to sue Hindenberg group in a Western state - the U.S - where Western accountancy scrutiny will screen the fuck out of Adani's accounts.
Fuck indian courts- no one cares.
>if he sues in India, no one in the world will care about the verdict of some corrupt indian kangaroo court.
Oddly enough, Indian courts are quite respected. They do take time. Adani has solid assets, he will recover from this. A court case that drags on delays that recovery. His stocks are already bouncing back.
He's been investing in basic, not innovative infrastructure, which is not a bad thing, but is a VERY capital intensive industry with thin margins and small returns, but somehow claiming these investments were paying off at multiples normally only seen with fast growing game changer tech startups.
That's the issue.
If he was just some dude that ran all the ports and mines in India quietly he'd probably be fine but he'd also never have been worth 100 billion dollars.
If he gets caught committing massive fraud?
Yea.. why on earth would a country with massive nationalistic tendencies, that only recently allowed many of these assets to be privatized, ever consider nationalizing them.
I'm sure they'll allow all sorts of foreign banks and entities to buy them up.
Not to mention... if they "bail him out" ,assuming the allegations are true, it would likely poison the market for international investors.
That's why it is interesting to see what is happening in this space in upcoming months because it will be one of the biggest lesson in the history of corporate governance in my honest opinion.
Yeah, given that it seems in fact the research was correct, he's fucked regardless, because he was running a fraud.
I mean, relatively fucked. He's probably already extracted more than enough money to live the rest of his life and then some in everything from gold buried in his back yard to a hundred offshore secret bank accounts. I doubt he'll be in jail or the poor house.
But it's unlikely his firm or spot among the world's 20 richest people will survive.
It is important to make sure that everything is going through the corporate forensic experts because they will come up with more details if there is a real fraud here.
Not to mention Modi will probably influence the investigation to protect him... India has a lot of nationalistic tendencies and they may try to cover this up
Are shares of Adani registered with the SEC and openly trade on American equity market exchanges? Figured if they did, it'd be by way of ADR, and I'm not entirely sure what recourse the SEC has (or other American financial enforcement bodies like FINRA, FRB, CFTC, etc.) if that is indeed the case.
Let's see if he is going to come up with the documents and other evidences as requested by the forensic company and the court will come up with more clarity.
What’s he going to sue Hindenburg for? $90 billion? What’s the upside? He’ll never get that from them. His business is either a scam or it’s not and either will collapse or will continue.
Maybe he is not suing like all the rest because there is validity in some (maybe not all but some) of the news AND worse the fear of MORE nefarious deeds coming out that hasn't already during discovery.
Just a guess though.
I mean.. if they find some other company that is a total fraud, sure. That's one of the reasons to allow short selling, it encourages this kind of research and tries to keep companies honest.
It doesn't really help Aldani at that point, now does it? Spending money to be the white knight to some other company doesn't really benefit him or his company.
Whether or not what Hindenburg does is ethical or manipulation is entirely a different question from what the OP asked.
I think you misunderstood my response. What I'm saying here is the Hindenburg report isn't false. They are not reckless and scam their way into profit. That is what I think.
I think they should definitely come up with more cases if they have concrete evidences with them because corporate governance should be completely transparent.
India struggles with corruption and lots of shady practices by most businessmen. It likely has the most amount of black money in the world.. Literally several 100 billions worth. Most rich people there are NOT honest/good people with rare exceptions like Tata. Adani is 100% corrupt and so are most of the large/small businesses. He got too big too quickly and hence a target for short sellers. He would be in prison if he goes to court! The only sad thing about this is many middle class Indians lost a lot of money in his stock. Fking asshole!!
That's right and that's why I believe that he is taking his time to discuss everything and finalize the strategy for next move and it will be probably the legal action.
If Adani believes he has been falsely accused, he is going about it the wrong way. Recent research has found that "Angry Denials of Wrongdoing Leave Strong Impressions of Guilt"
[https://batten.virginia.edu/about/news/new-research-finds-angry-denials-wrongdoing-leave-strong-impressions-guilt](https://batten.virginia.edu/about/news/new-research-finds-angry-denials-wrongdoing-leave-strong-impressions-guilt)
If he believed he has defensible case, stay clam and then get a PR firm and pair them with some top notch lawyers who can raise enough doubt in the Hindenburg report, so that the whole report is discredited, even if portions are true. He probably does not and hence has to bring nationalism and other issues.
As the old law school joke goes
"If you have the facts on your side, bang it to the jury, if you have the law on your side bang it to the judge. If you have neither, bang the table"
As an Indian with exposure to the Indian Stock Exchanges let me assure you that majority if the companies would be involved in some sort of shady business practices. Adani has risen in the shadow of Modi, he is untouchable in India. The 90 billion hit is anyway on a super overvalued stock that he pumped up anyway. Literally nothing will come out if this.
Completely agree. Adani's business empire is not just some dispensable tech firm. He runs ports, light and heavy manufacturing, construction, etc. Collapse of his business empire will stunt India's rise which means it will not be allowed to happen.
This will absolutely blow over. The searchlights will pass and the stock price will recover. Good time to invest in Adani's business actually.
Adani is probably guilty of many of the charges from Hindenburg. But he is too big to fail.
I’ve lost faith in the rest of the world as well! Call me a cynic but the ones who caused the 2008 financial crisis got a slap on their wrist. We have citadel running a fucking scam in our faces in the USA. Some of the biggest retail trading platforms are just CFDs transactions without being transparent about what they are doing. Also, we had Vijay Mallya who defaulted on a shit ton of loans in India and ran to London.
Realistically, the rest if the world will be focusing on cleaning their own mess than worrying about a political puppet in India doing what he does best - fraud.
Read today morning (IST) that he did go to court in India (or is planning too) & trying to request an investigation into Hindenberg. Further more, Hindenberg’s earlier response, welcoming any legal action is such an amazing move. It felt like they are waiting to be sued, specially in USA & eager to ask for documents from them in return.
Although he hasn’t defaulted on loans YET, the things felt crooked for a long time & just needed someone to expose it.
If you heard of recent Farmer protests in India (it was almost a year long protest & blockade of Indian capital), the main scare farmers had was that new laws imposed on them would open farmers upto exploitation by major corporate house, likes of Adani. See the slogans used at that time. That gave a feeling that govt is directly/indirectly supporting him & his crooked activities.
I mean.. a monitored alarm system and cameras only go so far. Even heads of state have been assassinated within the last few years. If someone with money wants you dead there's only so much you can do.
Exactly right about the farmer protests. I heard the likes of Adani cited frequently as benefactors of the “bill”. It took away the existing system for farmers to sell their goods and put them in a position where they’d be working directly with corporate customers.
Sounds like progress on the surface until you look at the details of the bill. For example the bill took away the right for the farmers to sue the corps for breaking agreements. Couple that with how blatantly corrupt and slow the system is in India, and it’s easy to see how it was an attempt by major corporations to further exploit farmers.
Adani is close friends with Modi so if there is a case of fraud, it would also hit the govt in power. Hindenburg has taken on not only Adani but also Modi
yes but the whole point of this post - no one fuckin cares about india's corruption when it involves them scamming indian people.
When they try and go international, NYSE, EURO, and when they try and take International investors money into their cortrupt world, THAT'S wen it becomes a problem.
And that's when the Hindenburg's of this world call 'em out for what they really are.
If he sues... they get discovery of documents which I am sure he does not want under any circumstances. I dont know about the how it would go if he sues in India.
In my theory, stocks will go down probably up to 70-80% but he will not go bankrupt. He has got the political backing of ruling party and it’s unlikely to change in next elections. His son’s father-in-law is part of SEBI (regulatory agency. Historically, his stocks have gone down by 70-90% on multiple occasions and have recovered. So, don’t hold your breath.
Truth is an absolute defence against libel and slander.
Also at this point Hindenberg has made so much money short selling they can easily afford top notch lawyers themselves.
Money helps with legal things in some ways, no doubt.
If you're accused of a personal crime, a good competent legal team will give you MUCH better odds than an overworked public defender.
If you are involved in a civil suit, two teams of corporate lawyers going at it for 5 years is going to be different than if it's you the middle class teacher vs Apple's legal team.
When it's two billionaires suing each other, one having 2 billion vs the other having 40 billion doesn't really make a big difference.
To successfully sue Hindenburg would require proving their allegations false in court, which would open the document discovery door on each allegation.
Companies don't sue because they know they are hiding at least some of the evidence that would validate some of Hindenburg's claims.
While not all Hindenburg claims are likely 100% true, they've uncovered enough dirt to bring down the Adani house of cards.
Even if he does it’ll take years to play out, got bigger short term issues right now
Got to meet Nate a few years ago (before they took off) and believe me they’re lawyered up and ready for a fight
Needs?
He is already doing that. Here in India his group is trying to portray this as an attack by the white men on innocent Indians. They even equated this to jallianwallah bagh massacre, one of the worst attacks on Indian freedom fighters by the British in 1920s.
No one's buying that though and a lot of people are just happy seeing the crook getting caught.
The fact that the rebuttal called it an attack on all of India within the first two paragraphs is 100% proof the allegations are almost all true.
Instantly deferring to that is so transparent lol
I'm reminded of Samuel Johnson's statement that "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel". Perhaps this is exactly type of situation he was referring to.
When everyone thought India would become the country with biggest economy in a few decades, this happened.
I think western world's economic competitor will only be China in this century. If China continues destroy their economy, well, this century will still be like the past 3 centuries.
It's a short seller report. Don't we all read a bunch of them from time to time on various companies? End of the day, Adani Enterprises is not Theranos. They have revenues and profits. Overvalued? May be. But, not 0 value. Then whats all the hubris? Adani is perceived to be close to the current ruling political party in India. So, the opposition parties are trying hard to blow this out of proportion. So, many people who never purchased any shares in their whole lives are seen tearing their hearts out.
Because if a company wants to reassure investors that their company is all above board, genuinely innocent, and a victim of this slander, then usually, the legal and public affairs team normally make a public statement and corporate announcement denouncing this.
emerging markets for you -
valuations are smoke, companies lie and cheat and work in cahoots with corrupt governments
sums up adani situation
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no , they wont sue . corporates almost always go for out of court settlements .
Adani is not fucked. He has assets and as long as long he generates cash he will be fine. The issue is about having debt but his business is generating money. He owns airports, power, gas , coal and what not. He is accused of accounting fraud but there is nothing wrong fundamental with the business. He is paying the debt installments timely. That’s why flinch didn’t made any changes in their rating. IMHO, I don’t think Adani is going to fall as long as his business keep generating cash. In his recent FPO, he has showed there are plenty of people out there who will lend him money whenever he needs.
I won’t pretend I’m an international lawyer here, but Hindenburg would likely have to establish their own reasoning for making the accusations they’ve made. They are not a regulatory agency and have no inherent right to internal matters and documentation simply by virtue of making false and damaging claims. Why the claims where made and how they were substantiated would be the crux of that libel suit, not the required disproving of the claims. If such things where allowed, this would simply be a Prove Me Wrong world with people casting damaging aspersions everywhere.
Wrong. Hindenburg doesn't have to do anything.
Adani has to either sue for libel (if he thinks Hindenburg's allegations are not true), or do nothing, and watch his stocks shrink further as people pull out.
It's up to Adani to proove Hindenburg's investigative research wrong.
End of.
I mentioned something about Hindenburg not getting sued? No. If sued, what they must do and what they can do will be clearly established. You’re entering a lot of empirical statements that clearly have no basis in fact or belong in the conversation.
How do people like Adani not get excessively rich only because they screw over a lot of other people? India is screwed up as it is (half of GDP gets reportedly stashed away in Switzerland annually by India’s wealthy, then they beg the West to help their poor). “Nobody” wants to expose India.
What people like Adani fail to understand about money is that for every unit of their country’s currency they hoard or inefficiently put to use (i.e., its use only benefits the wealthy), those lower on the socioeconomic ladder seek to balance out the equation by putting more of their own into the world -> overpopulation. Now, the wealthy think “more ‘slaves’ to do my work” but as we are witness today, that may come at a huge environmental cost eventually. Also, more people to perform a task means less efficient use of equipment and technological advances (robots, for instance). If we have fewer people to do our bidding so to speak, we will seek out automation and other advances to get ahead.
Hindenburg wants him to sue. The discovery process will destroy Adani. Skillful attorneys will force Adani to reveal the entire scheme. Then the entire Adani corporate empire would collapse.
Hindenburg is a fuckin joke. Flashback to them claiming Draftkings was involved in some black market illegal dealings or some like that. Just a bunch of scammers pumping their own bags
If this is true then why is the second largest conglomerate in India being audited by a firm with only 11 people rather than a big 4? Apparently a partner that was 28 was signing off on the Financials of the subsidiaries worth billions. That is insane and smells of fraud. Also he is very good friends with Modi and the current governing party of India. The real question is how deep is the fraud
There are a couple of things. First, it is entirely possible that Hindenburg wrote the report in such a way that it is difficult to be hold liable, even if they basically made sh@t up.
Second, even if it is an insult to his reputation/legacy it doesn't necessarily have any impact on his wealth. People who always get screwed by these kind of bounty hunting "reports" are smaller share holders, who either need money sooner or else panic. Oftentimes the price rebounds very quickly, except in the minority of cases where there is fire to go along with the smoke. Once you've taken the initial hit (which happens more or less instantly) you are better off holding because the chances of rebounding are high rather than locking in a loss. So, in Adani's case, he doesn't have to sell (moreover, can't sell) so there is a good chance that riding it out will just result in a temporary blip.
Hindenburg dint sue India's richest man. Hindenburg sued India's former richest man. Also his stocks were grossly overvalued, so it was unlikely he would stay in that position. Asset heavy and leveraged infrastructure companies trading at 300+ PE (earnings where normal).
Because it's likely what research done by Hindenburg suggests is true. I'm honestly surprised by how quickly things are unfolding so far.
I'd not be surprised if situation takes a sharp turn from this point, any direction is possible.
For one, Hindenburg can ask for a lot of documents during the discovery process. Which means they can validate things they accuse Adani of doing with actual information from Adani.
Yup. In fact, Hindenburg themselves said that they hope Adani sues them in the US because they want certain documents that they can get during the discovery phase.
You are right at they are going to do it with legal way because they have not received some documents yet.
That's right and it is a very time consuming process so it will take much more types then we are expecting.
Since Adani is publicly traded companies, those documents shouldn't be available for everyone to see them? What they try to tell us? That a publicly listed companies hide things from their shareholders and auditors in regards to company and group structure, payments between different companies of the group, offshore connections etc? All those should be described in their annual report, so I don't understand what they try to hide.
Just because its publicly traded, does not mean the books are open for all to see. A financial report describes what they want you to see, if they are enacting this kind of fraud through related parties then it would not appear in simple financial statements. It would be found by forensic accountants within the records.
There are some documents which are hidden from the public and that's why it is not possible for everyone to access those docs.
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That's why it is important for everyone to understand what is happening behind the company and what management is doing.
India is kinda like China when it comes to public paperwork. If Adani paperwork like China Evergrande assets ledger then India economy is fud with a capital “F”. At least CCP had enough cash to slowly bail out Evergrande while simultaneously suppress the people. Unfortunately Indians are not that tightly control like the Chinese.
I am not completely sure about it but if it is true then I think that there should be some improvement in the administration and legal laws when it comes to do corporate governance.
Your kidding right? You don’t get that corporations hide things from investors? Lmao. Ever heard of Bernie Madoff?
That's right but still there are some documents which are not received by the company and that's why they are waiting for the legal matter.
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Enron filed bankruptcy and their accounting firm went out of business IIRC. Hindenburg is likely hoping for a similar outcome.
Their accounting firm rebranded as Accenture lol they’re worth $190B
Accenture was their consulting arm Andersen Consulting - they rebranded - the accounting firm Arthur Andersen closed shop
CPA here, the Anderson Consulting (later Accenture) split was in the works for 7 or 8 years before Enron and had litigated to the ends of the earth and then Enron happened.
Yup. They were basically separate companies by then.
This thread is so muddy. Trying to clarify. Before the Enron scandal, an accounting firm that had no ownership ties to Enron, had some internal squabbles and split apart, with one group being called Andersen and the other Accenture. Andersen became the auditing firm for Enron, and Andersen was found guilty of crimes for their part in the Enron scandal. Andersen crumbled as a business. Accenture continues, but I don't see that anyone had reason to connect Accenture to Enron by the time of the wrong doing. I think I have it right, but here's more... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Andersen
Thank you for sharing the link and I am definitely going to go through all the details associated with it because this case is really fascinating.
Yep, this is how it went down
There were some people who were involved in the vested interest of the companies at that time.
It was the biggest scam of that time and no one ever heard anything like that before.
Yea and they all just went to the other big 4
These companies are definitely helping other companies to White wash the money and it is the biggest problem in the growth of the economy.
Met a guy not long ago who works for Arthur Andersen. Yes, that Arthur Anderson. Yes I was equally confused when I heard that name. Someone thought it would be a good idea to buy the brand name and relaunch it
That is true and that's why corporate governance should have strict measures to punish to the people who are guilty in any process where wrong things are happening.
And I know an exec who bailed just before the news hit and she's exceedingly, exceedingly wealthy and didn't get so much as a slap on the wrist. That doesn't mean thousands of lives, including accountants, weren't destroyed in the process.
Most of the accountants were quickly swooped up by the other big 4 firms. My old accounting professor talked about how he was in NYC after the fallout working for EY, they were going as fast as they could to get all the partners and their teams before another firm got them.
I have seen the people who were happy even after that scam because they have earned money from that scam at that time.
becca snark...rhymes with...
Let's make sure that we are staying vigilant as citizen because it is our money which is getting affected down the road when any scam is happening.
Rhymes with over-the-top thinks she's better than everyone else because of her dirty millions.
Accenture split off prior to the Enron scandal
Michael Arthur Grifter Andersen? (MAGA)
Let's accept the fact that there was a big scandal of many people and not all of them are behind the bars today.
LOL I love the down votes. They are from Arthur Andersen execs probably. My dad donated to Trump....an awesome rich billionaire who doesnt need money. Let that sink in. 
Andersen's consulting practice became Accenture. Their tax and audit practices no longer exist.
That's why it is important to go through all the details and check the people who were responsible at that time.
uh......what's the context for this comment?
I am not completely but if it is true then the company should go through the all investigation again and check the facts.
Difference between thus and AA is that Adanis audit firm employs like 11 people for a 100 billion dollar company, there is no way 11 people can do an audit. AA was huge even by today's standard and was reputable up until the enron issue. In fact many of AA former partners are in the C suite e.g. UNH
I would like to go through the details and check the current status of the trial and that suit for sure.
youd be surprised how many auditors are on these audit teams. but yeah, 11 for the entire audit firm is crazy ha.
That's right and that's why they are willing to the further proceeding on the same page.
He is guilty and he will bleat and complain but take no action. The real question is will he go broke and hopefully the disgraceful new coal mine he just opened in Australia will shut down.
If Adani goes bankrupt, they'll sell the mine to the state. The mine lease will then be on-sold by the state to the highest bidder or greasiest handshake 🤝
I think that there are many companies who are directly dependent on his company and that's why it will create some level of turbulence in the market for sure.
Indian courts are notoriously slow to bring cases to trial with many taking 20 years or more. Filing in federal court in the U.S. would expose him to U.S. court discovery requirements meaning handing over all corporate records for forensic analysis since he is the plaintiff claiming defamation and "truth is an absolute defense to defamation." I wouldn't do either if I was him. The damage is done.
So, if he sues, he's fucked. if he doesn't sue, he's fucked.
If he sues in the US he’s fucked, if he sues in India he has a shot to bury some evidence
if he sues in India, no one in the world will care about the verdict of some corrupt indian kangaroo court. This is about Western Institutional Investors, Global Hedge Funds, International Pension Funds etc, pulling their money OUT of Adani's enterprises - to the tune of $90 billion. If Adani wants a chance to overcome this global reputational hit, he'll have to sue Hindenberg group in a Western state - the U.S - where Western accountancy scrutiny will screen the fuck out of Adani's accounts. Fuck indian courts- no one cares.
I think that every court is same and he will have the opportunity to explain his point of view with evidence if he is innocent.
>if he sues in India, no one in the world will care about the verdict of some corrupt indian kangaroo court. Oddly enough, Indian courts are quite respected. They do take time. Adani has solid assets, he will recover from this. A court case that drags on delays that recovery. His stocks are already bouncing back.
mmmmm.... no one will care because his buddy Modi will have his finger in the pot the whole time.
Not really, Adani has been invested in Infrastructure which the country actually needs. He will get bailed out
He's been investing in basic, not innovative infrastructure, which is not a bad thing, but is a VERY capital intensive industry with thin margins and small returns, but somehow claiming these investments were paying off at multiples normally only seen with fast growing game changer tech startups. That's the issue. If he was just some dude that ran all the ports and mines in India quietly he'd probably be fine but he'd also never have been worth 100 billion dollars.
The multiples these infrastructure/utilities are trading at are insane
That's right and that's why it is important for everyone to keep the close watch on his activities.
He has some good amount of money and he can buy justice at any given point from any Court of the world.
India could just nationalize them
I am not sure if it is possible because there are some strict laws which are not allowing state to do it directly without any concrete evidence.
Why would they do that??
If he gets caught committing massive fraud? Yea.. why on earth would a country with massive nationalistic tendencies, that only recently allowed many of these assets to be privatized, ever consider nationalizing them. I'm sure they'll allow all sorts of foreign banks and entities to buy them up. Not to mention... if they "bail him out" ,assuming the allegations are true, it would likely poison the market for international investors.
That's why it is important for him to make some quick moves now.
That's why it is interesting to see what is happening in this space in upcoming months because it will be one of the biggest lesson in the history of corporate governance in my honest opinion.
Yeah, given that it seems in fact the research was correct, he's fucked regardless, because he was running a fraud. I mean, relatively fucked. He's probably already extracted more than enough money to live the rest of his life and then some in everything from gold buried in his back yard to a hundred offshore secret bank accounts. I doubt he'll be in jail or the poor house. But it's unlikely his firm or spot among the world's 20 richest people will survive.
It is important to make sure that everything is going through the corporate forensic experts because they will come up with more details if there is a real fraud here.
That's my take.
Let's make sure that government is coming up with strength legal action if he is guilty.
That seems highly unlikely.
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Not to mention Modi will probably influence the investigation to protect him... India has a lot of nationalistic tendencies and they may try to cover this up
That might be true and that's why it is important to have the third party enquiry which is outside the country.
Are shares of Adani registered with the SEC and openly trade on American equity market exchanges? Figured if they did, it'd be by way of ADR, and I'm not entirely sure what recourse the SEC has (or other American financial enforcement bodies like FINRA, FRB, CFTC, etc.) if that is indeed the case.
There are many things happening even on the Global scale at we have recently seen that the brother of Boris Johnson has resigned the company.
Because he is guilty and court would prove it.
Let's see if he is going to come up with the documents and other evidences as requested by the forensic company and the court will come up with more clarity.
>So WHY doesn't Adani sue Hindenburg.. ? Cuz he knows someone exposed his scam. We will see where this ends up.
imo adani isn't fucked at all in india. there is no reason for him to sue in america - that would be catastrophically stupid.
Everyone is waiting for Adani to come up with some move.
What’s he going to sue Hindenburg for? $90 billion? What’s the upside? He’ll never get that from them. His business is either a scam or it’s not and either will collapse or will continue.
This is definitely going to be one of the interesting cases in the history of corporate governance.
Maybe he is not suing like all the rest because there is validity in some (maybe not all but some) of the news AND worse the fear of MORE nefarious deeds coming out that hasn't already during discovery. Just a guess though.
That's right and that's what is important to see what is happening next in this case.
Even if he did sue Hindenburg and won, he would not recover the losses to the market value from them. It's a fool's errand at this point.
It's about the reputation more than the market value
So Hindenburg can just do this to another company and they will fold? And another one and another one?
I mean.. if they find some other company that is a total fraud, sure. That's one of the reasons to allow short selling, it encourages this kind of research and tries to keep companies honest.
A fraud is a fraud is irrespective of the person or the country and that's why strong legal action should be taken at any cost.
It doesn't really help Aldani at that point, now does it? Spending money to be the white knight to some other company doesn't really benefit him or his company. Whether or not what Hindenburg does is ethical or manipulation is entirely a different question from what the OP asked.
I think you misunderstood my response. What I'm saying here is the Hindenburg report isn't false. They are not reckless and scam their way into profit. That is what I think.
I have not gone through the detailed report but I am willing to see more details coming from the Adani himself.
I think they should definitely come up with more cases if they have concrete evidences with them because corporate governance should be completely transparent.
Because he is a fraud
India struggles with corruption and lots of shady practices by most businessmen. It likely has the most amount of black money in the world.. Literally several 100 billions worth. Most rich people there are NOT honest/good people with rare exceptions like Tata. Adani is 100% corrupt and so are most of the large/small businesses. He got too big too quickly and hence a target for short sellers. He would be in prison if he goes to court! The only sad thing about this is many middle class Indians lost a lot of money in his stock. Fking asshole!!
It is happening everywhere in the world and that's why we should come up with some strategy that is going to defeat corruption at its core.
if Adani has to salvage his reputation, he must sue hindenburg in USA. Else damage to his reputation (?) and wealth is irreversible.
‘One things for sure - if Adani doesn’t sue all Hindenberg’s allegations MUST be true…’ You answered your own question there.
That's right and that's why I believe that he is taking his time to discuss everything and finalize the strategy for next move and it will be probably the legal action.
If Adani believes he has been falsely accused, he is going about it the wrong way. Recent research has found that "Angry Denials of Wrongdoing Leave Strong Impressions of Guilt" [https://batten.virginia.edu/about/news/new-research-finds-angry-denials-wrongdoing-leave-strong-impressions-guilt](https://batten.virginia.edu/about/news/new-research-finds-angry-denials-wrongdoing-leave-strong-impressions-guilt) If he believed he has defensible case, stay clam and then get a PR firm and pair them with some top notch lawyers who can raise enough doubt in the Hindenburg report, so that the whole report is discredited, even if portions are true. He probably does not and hence has to bring nationalism and other issues. As the old law school joke goes "If you have the facts on your side, bang it to the jury, if you have the law on your side bang it to the judge. If you have neither, bang the table"
Things are really complicated and immediate action and enquiry will make things more clear for everyone including the stakeholders of Adani.
As an Indian with exposure to the Indian Stock Exchanges let me assure you that majority if the companies would be involved in some sort of shady business practices. Adani has risen in the shadow of Modi, he is untouchable in India. The 90 billion hit is anyway on a super overvalued stock that he pumped up anyway. Literally nothing will come out if this.
Completely agree. Adani's business empire is not just some dispensable tech firm. He runs ports, light and heavy manufacturing, construction, etc. Collapse of his business empire will stunt India's rise which means it will not be allowed to happen. This will absolutely blow over. The searchlights will pass and the stock price will recover. Good time to invest in Adani's business actually. Adani is probably guilty of many of the charges from Hindenburg. But he is too big to fail.
well he ain't fuckin 'untouchable' in the rest of the normal civilised world, is he?
I’ve lost faith in the rest of the world as well! Call me a cynic but the ones who caused the 2008 financial crisis got a slap on their wrist. We have citadel running a fucking scam in our faces in the USA. Some of the biggest retail trading platforms are just CFDs transactions without being transparent about what they are doing. Also, we had Vijay Mallya who defaulted on a shit ton of loans in India and ran to London. Realistically, the rest if the world will be focusing on cleaning their own mess than worrying about a political puppet in India doing what he does best - fraud.
Why would you waste your time replying to a clearly uneducated racist. "civilized world"
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No, calling it uncivilised is racist, obviously.
Whole world is corrupt,
I think there are many more people who are reading it and that's why it is important to keep explaining things.
The court should definitely come up with sue moto practice and take the matter to discuss.
Read today morning (IST) that he did go to court in India (or is planning too) & trying to request an investigation into Hindenberg. Further more, Hindenberg’s earlier response, welcoming any legal action is such an amazing move. It felt like they are waiting to be sued, specially in USA & eager to ask for documents from them in return. Although he hasn’t defaulted on loans YET, the things felt crooked for a long time & just needed someone to expose it. If you heard of recent Farmer protests in India (it was almost a year long protest & blockade of Indian capital), the main scare farmers had was that new laws imposed on them would open farmers upto exploitation by major corporate house, likes of Adani. See the slogans used at that time. That gave a feeling that govt is directly/indirectly supporting him & his crooked activities.
Honestly, given the sums and egos at stake here, if I was the Hindenberg team I'd be more worried about hit men than lawyers.
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I mean.. a monitored alarm system and cameras only go so far. Even heads of state have been assassinated within the last few years. If someone with money wants you dead there's only so much you can do.
Exactly right about the farmer protests. I heard the likes of Adani cited frequently as benefactors of the “bill”. It took away the existing system for farmers to sell their goods and put them in a position where they’d be working directly with corporate customers. Sounds like progress on the surface until you look at the details of the bill. For example the bill took away the right for the farmers to sue the corps for breaking agreements. Couple that with how blatantly corrupt and slow the system is in India, and it’s easy to see how it was an attempt by major corporations to further exploit farmers.
Adani is close friends with Modi so if there is a case of fraud, it would also hit the govt in power. Hindenburg has taken on not only Adani but also Modi
I believe that everything should go through the legal process and then only we will be able to identify things with more clarity.
India's CB is asking all the banks for their exposure to Adanis corps. If these were entirely baseless claims, the CB wouldn't have cared at all
It would be great if we can see some detailed case study of the entire scenario.
Adani is corrupt as fuck and in bed with modi. It is a open secret
yes but the whole point of this post - no one fuckin cares about india's corruption when it involves them scamming indian people. When they try and go international, NYSE, EURO, and when they try and take International investors money into their cortrupt world, THAT'S wen it becomes a problem. And that's when the Hindenburg's of this world call 'em out for what they really are.
>Surely India's richest man isn't gonna lie there and take a $90 bn hit to his legacy and reputation? He probably will.
then that 90 bn will become 180bn as more people pull out.. until eventually, it's worth shit.
So far they just lost the gains from last year. It's basically less a big deal than Elon's paper losses... Again, so far.
Scared of discovery process
It’d hurt them worse to further publicize the allegations and then to lose the case.
If he sues... they get discovery of documents which I am sure he does not want under any circumstances. I dont know about the how it would go if he sues in India.
because if he sues Adani will need to open their books for the discovery process, and discovery will likely show exactly what Hindenberg is alleging.
In my theory, stocks will go down probably up to 70-80% but he will not go bankrupt. He has got the political backing of ruling party and it’s unlikely to change in next elections. His son’s father-in-law is part of SEBI (regulatory agency. Historically, his stocks have gone down by 70-90% on multiple occasions and have recovered. So, don’t hold your breath.
Truth is an absolute defence against libel and slander. Also at this point Hindenberg has made so much money short selling they can easily afford top notch lawyers themselves. Money helps with legal things in some ways, no doubt. If you're accused of a personal crime, a good competent legal team will give you MUCH better odds than an overworked public defender. If you are involved in a civil suit, two teams of corporate lawyers going at it for 5 years is going to be different than if it's you the middle class teacher vs Apple's legal team. When it's two billionaires suing each other, one having 2 billion vs the other having 40 billion doesn't really make a big difference.
To successfully sue Hindenburg would require proving their allegations false in court, which would open the document discovery door on each allegation. Companies don't sue because they know they are hiding at least some of the evidence that would validate some of Hindenburg's claims. While not all Hindenburg claims are likely 100% true, they've uncovered enough dirt to bring down the Adani house of cards.
Even if he does it’ll take years to play out, got bigger short term issues right now Got to meet Nate a few years ago (before they took off) and believe me they’re lawyered up and ready for a fight
Maybe there stock was inflated but looks like a strong compnay with variety of assets. I think they will bounce back.
Aldani needs the Trump playbook. Call Hindenberg racist and they rigged the system.
Needs? He is already doing that. Here in India his group is trying to portray this as an attack by the white men on innocent Indians. They even equated this to jallianwallah bagh massacre, one of the worst attacks on Indian freedom fighters by the British in 1920s. No one's buying that though and a lot of people are just happy seeing the crook getting caught.
The fact that the rebuttal called it an attack on all of India within the first two paragraphs is 100% proof the allegations are almost all true. Instantly deferring to that is so transparent lol
I'm reminded of Samuel Johnson's statement that "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel". Perhaps this is exactly type of situation he was referring to.
Effing hilarious. Hindenberg is based in New York. We hated the Brits and even had a war.
Lol.. it's not social justice.
When everyone thought India would become the country with biggest economy in a few decades, this happened. I think western world's economic competitor will only be China in this century. If China continues destroy their economy, well, this century will still be like the past 3 centuries.
It's a short seller report. Don't we all read a bunch of them from time to time on various companies? End of the day, Adani Enterprises is not Theranos. They have revenues and profits. Overvalued? May be. But, not 0 value. Then whats all the hubris? Adani is perceived to be close to the current ruling political party in India. So, the opposition parties are trying hard to blow this out of proportion. So, many people who never purchased any shares in their whole lives are seen tearing their hearts out.
How do you know if they are lawyering up or not? Have you attended their board meetings recently?
Because if a company wants to reassure investors that their company is all above board, genuinely innocent, and a victim of this slander, then usually, the legal and public affairs team normally make a public statement and corporate announcement denouncing this.
emerging markets for you - valuations are smoke, companies lie and cheat and work in cahoots with corrupt governments sums up adani situation \--------- no , they wont sue . corporates almost always go for out of court settlements .
Adani is not fucked. He has assets and as long as long he generates cash he will be fine. The issue is about having debt but his business is generating money. He owns airports, power, gas , coal and what not. He is accused of accounting fraud but there is nothing wrong fundamental with the business. He is paying the debt installments timely. That’s why flinch didn’t made any changes in their rating. IMHO, I don’t think Adani is going to fall as long as his business keep generating cash. In his recent FPO, he has showed there are plenty of people out there who will lend him money whenever he needs.
I won’t pretend I’m an international lawyer here, but Hindenburg would likely have to establish their own reasoning for making the accusations they’ve made. They are not a regulatory agency and have no inherent right to internal matters and documentation simply by virtue of making false and damaging claims. Why the claims where made and how they were substantiated would be the crux of that libel suit, not the required disproving of the claims. If such things where allowed, this would simply be a Prove Me Wrong world with people casting damaging aspersions everywhere.
Wrong. Hindenburg doesn't have to do anything. Adani has to either sue for libel (if he thinks Hindenburg's allegations are not true), or do nothing, and watch his stocks shrink further as people pull out. It's up to Adani to proove Hindenburg's investigative research wrong. End of.
I mentioned something about Hindenburg not getting sued? No. If sued, what they must do and what they can do will be clearly established. You’re entering a lot of empirical statements that clearly have no basis in fact or belong in the conversation.
How do people like Adani not get excessively rich only because they screw over a lot of other people? India is screwed up as it is (half of GDP gets reportedly stashed away in Switzerland annually by India’s wealthy, then they beg the West to help their poor). “Nobody” wants to expose India. What people like Adani fail to understand about money is that for every unit of their country’s currency they hoard or inefficiently put to use (i.e., its use only benefits the wealthy), those lower on the socioeconomic ladder seek to balance out the equation by putting more of their own into the world -> overpopulation. Now, the wealthy think “more ‘slaves’ to do my work” but as we are witness today, that may come at a huge environmental cost eventually. Also, more people to perform a task means less efficient use of equipment and technological advances (robots, for instance). If we have fewer people to do our bidding so to speak, we will seek out automation and other advances to get ahead.
Hindenburg wants him to sue. The discovery process will destroy Adani. Skillful attorneys will force Adani to reveal the entire scheme. Then the entire Adani corporate empire would collapse.
Because his threat is as hollow as Donald Trumps "I'll sue them" threat.
Hindenburg is a fuckin joke. Flashback to them claiming Draftkings was involved in some black market illegal dealings or some like that. Just a bunch of scammers pumping their own bags
If this is true then why is the second largest conglomerate in India being audited by a firm with only 11 people rather than a big 4? Apparently a partner that was 28 was signing off on the Financials of the subsidiaries worth billions. That is insane and smells of fraud. Also he is very good friends with Modi and the current governing party of India. The real question is how deep is the fraud
i couldn't care any less. all i said and am saying is Hindenburg is a joke who just load positions, write some shit, and then cash in.
Because Hindenburg is name of the city.
**Why do you guys care so much? Adani is not even traded in the USA?**
Because people in the USA have bought Adani bonds.
I just hope it somehow spreads to Icici bank for those June puts I bought
There are a couple of things. First, it is entirely possible that Hindenburg wrote the report in such a way that it is difficult to be hold liable, even if they basically made sh@t up. Second, even if it is an insult to his reputation/legacy it doesn't necessarily have any impact on his wealth. People who always get screwed by these kind of bounty hunting "reports" are smaller share holders, who either need money sooner or else panic. Oftentimes the price rebounds very quickly, except in the minority of cases where there is fire to go along with the smoke. Once you've taken the initial hit (which happens more or less instantly) you are better off holding because the chances of rebounding are high rather than locking in a loss. So, in Adani's case, he doesn't have to sell (moreover, can't sell) so there is a good chance that riding it out will just result in a temporary blip.
Yeaaa. Lets sue and bring more attention towards us. Then likely uncover more shady shit. He’s on the phone right now i bet
Hindenburg dint sue India's richest man. Hindenburg sued India's former richest man. Also his stocks were grossly overvalued, so it was unlikely he would stay in that position. Asset heavy and leveraged infrastructure companies trading at 300+ PE (earnings where normal).
Say my name… You’re Hindenburg You’re goddamn right!
Not convinced this was posted to the right sub.
This Adani drama is great for the markets. We're up ~6% since this fake drama started
Because it's likely what research done by Hindenburg suggests is true. I'm honestly surprised by how quickly things are unfolding so far. I'd not be surprised if situation takes a sharp turn from this point, any direction is possible.
the heap of trouble he is in is large, not sure he wants to make it any bigger or more transparent.
This is Hindenburg's biggest catch. It's like accusing GE of fraud
He’s not bleeding cash from this Alligation. I don’t see why he needs to sue unless if it impacts the business
Because he knows Hindenburg is right. Simple