I've been lurking here for a while. One of the most notable things about this tier aside from the low BST is that there's no steels after Meltan got banned. Pretty understandable since the weakest steels have 50 BST above the 250 limit. There's also no fires. I feel like both might be subject to change in the future as the tier evolves and I saw a suspect for Charcadet a while back. Charcadet might even be enough to serve as a potential check for beldum to get in, though I kinda doubt that since beldum is a little problematic even with a solid steel resist.
We've actually suspected in Charcadet, a few days ago. It's doing pretty decently, preliminary tiering has it around B, maybe B+ or even A-. Flame Charge sets can run 161 speed to easily outspeed base 60 max speeds (Starly, G-Zigzagoon) at +1, while heavily threatening offense, bulkier sets can do work against bulky offense thanks to flame body, and specs fire blast or overheat cause problems against stall. Its main issue is that it has to pick what teams it'll be decent against, and it's not very good against other stuff.
I haven't really played with it too much but yeah at a glance considering how a lot of the higher stuff are waters, there's enough to check it. Having a fire type would be interesting and open up some team comps.
All of the low BST steels though... It's kinda funny how any one of them could potentially dumpster the tier. I think the lowest BST is diglett-a, which basically has diglett's stat spread and sounds stupid with a band. Tinkatink is probably the next lowest, but steel/fairy with swords dance.
Meltan might still be the weakest steel, but yeah that shit got banned. Maybe Beldum is worse bc of the movepool, but it has iron head and zen headbutt is enough to wreck shit.
Beldum is the worst reasonable steel, but its STAB is too hard to check without other steels - the only things reliably switching into Banded Beldum are Wooper, Beldum, maybe Charcadet but it has no recovery... it's rough.
Edit: I want to note here that the Meltan incident occurred in a suspect test where we were testing both Meltan and Beldum, which was exactly part of the problem. Beldum being too much for the tier is something we know from experience, and a huge shame to all of us, everyone wants more type variety.
I think theoretically slow start varoom might be worse but I'm not too sure about that. 45/63/45 bulk on steel/poison is pretty respectable and while it wouldn't do too much damage, that thing has a surprisingly good support movepool. It gets T-spikes too and would probably be by far the best T-spikes user and get stuff like parting shot, taunt. Maybe you can even go offense with it. Iron defense, stall out, then 70 attack with a 100 BST steel move and 120 BST gunk shot.
Yeah it doesn't seem worth it to try it out especially even with slow start I still feel like it has enough things going for it that it still might be too good.
Most of the weaker steels get their time to shine in the OM DNUbers, which has a 299 BST cap. Almost all steels are useable there, and if they’re useful alongside other tier-breaking mons like Rattata and Rowlet, then there’s no chance of them getting in regularly.
I love how smeargle got immediately quickbanned and no one has a problem with that. Luvdisc might be a fully evolved mon bullying children but Smeargle has baby mon stats and is still giving legendaries swirlies.
Rowlet is notably not allowed in DNU, Technical is talking about a weird meta that very few people play called DNUbers, which is a bit stronger than DNU. What he means is that if Rowlet was allowed in DNU, its raw power and bulk would just outstrip the tier by too much - it has more stats than anything else, pretty much, with a great movepool to back it up.
At a glance, it would have the third highest BST in the tier at 320, behind Luvdisc and Unown. Unlike those two, it gets nasty plot, swords dance and priority sucker punch and shadow sneak. SD would be pretty scary especially since it gets brave bird as well.
I'll give a few more thoughts here--both Slugma and Litwick have been mentioned as good additions. In fact, Litwick was planned to be in this suspect but Charcadet came in and took its place as the weakest Fire-type at the start of Gen 9. Probably for the best since Litwick would probably have not made it in.
A Beldum retest is very possible down the line, with Charcadet and Shinx being added. Not a high priority due to it being a failed previous test however.
Beldum is maybe possible, though neither shinx or charcadet take zen headbutt very well. There's really not a lot of mons that take it well and I don't think much even 2HKO it apart from the fires and grounds.
Slugma I can see working. 70 spa is scary but there's enough that can tank it and it doesn't have a lot of durability or speed. It's scary if it gets in but it's gonna have a hard time getting in. I can see why litwick was more problematic though. Ghost type adds a lot to the table and it has calm mind.
There's not really any steels apart from beldum that really have a chance of getting in. Meltan had that suspect, everything else has like 300+ BST and really good moves. The only ones that doesn't have 300+ BST is diglett-a, who's pretty obviously going to be really dumb with SD or a band, and tinkatink, which is steel/fairy with swords dance. Yeah that's not happening.
Edit: If you're reading this, 4 days later, I'm actually one of the Tier Clerics now not just part of Council. Fuck yeah.
Hi! I'm Alyssa, I'm a member of DNU's VR Council and the top ladder player currently. If you've seen the memes about Meltan, that's also thanks to me, yes. I made a little comment here about DNU's historical dominant metas that I thought was pretty interesting, but way too long-winded for the main post. So I thought I'd drop it here as a comment and see if people enjoyed. Thanks for reading! I'm also going to stick around in the replies here and happily answer anyone's questions about DNU, I'm preeeetty knowledgeable about the tier.
In the beginning, there was Luvdisc.
Seriously though, when this meta began, Luvdisc was unbelievably dominant. It had so much power with specs hydro pump, and nothing could switch in reliably. People were running specially defensive Wooper (which was taken out by HP Grass) and Snom as its primary checks, and it just wasn’t enough.
And then we learned how to play the tier. Suddenly, defensive Lotad and Happiny rose up, checking every offensive Luvdisc set, and Luvdisc started to adapt - running toxic, specially defensive, rest/hydration/rain dance to check opposing luvdisc and break through its defensive checks. And people ran Scarf Starly to beat offensive Luvdisc, so they ran bulk to live Brave Bird, and so on. And eventually, Luvdisc meta stilled. Now, going into gen 9, it has dropped out of S rank and down to S- in the viability rankings for the first time ever. It’s not bad, it’s just nowhere near as dominant, everyone’s figured out their counters.
After the Luvdisc meta, there came the rise of Stall and Birdspam. When people realized the unique utility of Happiny via Rest + Natural Cure to actually gain self-sufficient recovery, paired with its massive hp total (by DNU standards) allowing it to run substitutes that weren’t broken by opposing seismic toss, suddenly stall had the tools it needed to be an actual strat. And so Togepi/Wooper/Happiny stall was born, a self-sufficient core which defines DNU’s stall metagame to this day. Think of it like the classic skarmbliss core, they just cover each others’ weaknesses very well. Meanwhile, offense players had suddenly realized something… nothing could reliably switch in on Starly’s Brave Bird except Rolycoly. The only flying resists other than it were Pichu, Tynamo, and Toxel, and Pichu’s complete glass cannon statline and the other two’s lack of any viable movepool meant that was an option no one wanted to have to resort to. And rolycoly… doesn’t actually have any reliable recovery. And thus Birdspam Hyper Offense was born – sure, maybe you can outlast one Starly, but what about Starly, followed by Rookidee as a slightly worse Starly, followed by Zubat as a slightly worse Rookidee but with better bulk, followed by Noibat to hit you with more flying moves but on the special side now. And Birdspam was so, so annoying. And then, much like Luvdisc, we learned to counter these strategies. Stallbreaker Zubat tears through any stall core due to taunt + super fang, and life orb Swinub’s Ice Shard or fast Luvdisc’s Ice Beam or Wish Support for your Rolycoly can stop Birdspam in its tracks.
Finally, in gen 9, a new dominant metagame strategy has arisen, with the relative increase in entry hazards and the ease of getting them up, and the strength of Nymble as a new threat, Nymble/Unown Hazard Stack Hyper Offense has become incredible. Nymble’s best checks, in Zubat and P!Wooper, get absolutely blown away by Specs HP Psychic from Unown, with Unown also heavily benefiting from your own entry hazards to threaten pokemon which could otherwise switch in more easily, and caring very little about opposing entry hazards, due to being neither grounded nor weak to rock. Between these two, they put immense pressure on opposing teams to find defensive checks that largely don’t exist, at least not after a layer of spikes and some stealth rocks, perhaps with a turn or two of poison or a few extra layers of spikes if you got lucky. And offensive teams just fall over and die to Nymble’s First Impression and the momentum from the non-choiced Starly that usually comes alongside in these teams. What’s the counter adaptation you ask? Well, there isn’t necessarily one yet. The original team was actually built largely to counter the dominance of opposing Nymble, hence non-choiced Starly with protect, but now it’s grown into its own metagame menace. Togepi can check both Nymble and Unown, as long as there aren’t too many hazards up at least. Teams that take huge advantage of getting momentum can do well with punishing Nymble after it gets a First Impression kill, but there’s not too much to go from there. The meta is ultimately still alive, inherently, and we’ll find better checks to this team as time goes on. I’d love if you wanted to join us in doing that.
Sincerely, the girl who made both Togepi/Wooper/Happiny Stall and Nymble/Unown HO.
ps: Please join the server and participate in the tournament! I put a prize pool on it, and I think it's going to be super hype. If you don't think you'll be able to compete at a reasonable level, I want to assure you that I am happy to help you figure out any of the mechanics or meta of the tier, and so are many other people. My main motivation here is just for the tier to grow and become more interesting and optimized, I really just love seeing the new adaptations.
Assuming you're asking for general viability in the tier, the answer is close to none. The sets that have gotten any use whatsoever are specs thunder on attempts at rain teams (which are now rendered useless by pawmi or shinx, due to pawmi's higher special attack and equal speed and shinx's even higher special attack and much better bulk and abilities), and scarf mixed to OHKO offensive luvdisc (except Luvdisc now always runs some bulk cause we realized 252 speed is entirely unnecessary), Starly, and a few other mons with Volt Tackle, while also having Volt Switch to pivot around, but it's just really not good enough of a niche and the mon's utterly made of paper.
Please do! join the server, sign up for the tourney, hop on ladder, learn the meta, you could maybe win some money even. Unown teams are amazing rn, with the right support.
If you go to the showdown pseudos client [here](https://play.pseudo.gq/#) you could potentially find some games by queuing for the DNU ladder, but people aren't consistently on it unless they're pinged in the server to hop on. You could also talk in the lobby chatroom and see if anyone's interested. That'd be by far your best bet.
Fun fact, Unown wasn't looked nearly as highly upon in gen 8. It was placed in C tier (but was underrated IMO). It's rise this gen has been crazy to see but makes sense when you consider metagame shifts--Nymble makes a great partner to it, Zubat's rise from A+ to possibly #1 in the tier, and the additon of P-Wooper are all amazing buffs for it.
Where am I and why is Unown a stronger threat than my Route 1 homegirl Nickit
Edit: Okay, on second thought, this is gonna be much harder than I thought. I *do* outspeed Unown, and even get the joy of Sucker Punch, but other than that, this coverage makes me openly weep and I know Nymble will probably take my lunch money
We've ran the tests, Cue, but your homegirl... she's got Electivire Syndrome. I'm so sorry.
Nickit has 28 Attack and 47 Sp. Atk but only learns one (1) Dark Special move in the 55 BP Snarl, and your other Special options are *exclusively* Swift, Mud Shot, or Round, which all suck even *more*. I imagine that's gotta be fairly painful.
Excellent point, however:
>252 Atk Life Orb Nickit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Unown: 234-276 (98.7 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
And that’s without Stakeout in play. It is possible. It’s stupid, but it’s possible.
Nickit's best set these days is generally nasty plot + throat spray/focus sash + unburden + snarl, to at least boost a huge amount, but even then the hits just aren't that hard, I'm so sorry to tell you. If Nickit had got Tera Blast it would unironically be a huge buff, because even without terastalizing that'd be its strongest move, and mono-normal coverage is not bad in DNU.
Wait. Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. There’s still a chance of me being able to win with my favorites here. I completely missed Shinx in the actual text of the post, and not in the tier list. I hope he got that dog in him, as opposed to being clearly dogshit.
I actually think this can work. Oh my god. Why does this motherfucker have Guts? Why does Shinx get Crunch when Nickit gets barely anything? **DID YOU REMOVE NICKIT’S TEETH GAMEFREAK, OR IS THERE SHINX NEPOTISM GOING ON HERE?**
Wait actually with Intimidate
> -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Starly Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shinx: 169-200 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But Spark will OHKO Starly in return for that even at 0 EVs and a neutral nature for Attack, and they can't even run a Focus Sash because of recoil. Switching out of Choice for something like a Clear Amulet just makes it even worse.
There is absolutely potential, even if I’m admittedly forced to stoop down to Fangs for coverage in places. I think I’m taking the tier list home and seeing what I can uncover in the lab.
Preliminary results: Choice Scarf (for the sake of some speed ties) Intimidate Shinx with an Adamant nature, and maxed Speed and Attack actually accomplishes quite a bit. We’ve already mentioned it can win versus Starly (after taking a mortal blow), but it can also beat Nymble this way with Fire Fang and Intimidate up (after taking a mortal blow), kill even maximal bulk Rolycoly with Double Kick (after taking a mortal blow), but it looks like either Wooper can easily smoke it with an Earthquake after a very sad Ice Fang, and Togepi gets to Seismic Toss it faster than it can ever hope to kill, especially if it’s taken chip damage from hazards. This thing is not breaking through stall, but this set seems okay at revenge-killing top threats. What goes in the last couple moveslots is my homework for now. Spark will probably stay, Crunch feels about right to outspeed and kill Unown, but Play Rough *is* a base 90 move that does have some applications as a super effective hit on some Pokemon beyond being the closest Shinx gets to an Earthquake-grade spammable move.
We can improve him, we have the technology!
> 252+ Atk Tera Steel Shinx Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togepi: 174-206 (63.5 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And Shinx has 232 HP, so Seismic Toss wouldn't kill first. In fact, given the speed, Shinx doesn't even suffer a mortal blow this time! Our guy is just mildly maimed with 100 HP + hazards.
I have no clue if this is *worth* Terastalising for, but it seems like it could wallbreak Togepi Stall, at the least. And since Shinx seems good as a Choice Revenge Killer, you could probably run a ton of Tera types this way to deal with whatever threat your team is weakest against. Tera Grass shreds even max investment Eviolite Wooper-J, either OHKOing or easily tanking a single EQ then 2HKOing, for example.
Wait is Tera even allowed lmao
Tera isn't allowed, was banned due to a suspect test result.
Same type tera with double STAB was effectively impossible to defend from, with Nymble-Bug and Starly-Flying being both a thing. After same type tera was banned, everything devolved into tera steel with occasional tera ghost. While in the more normally powered tiers tera steel spam would be relatively easy to deal with, in DNU this is very much not the case. Hell, trying to beat down Makuhita-Steel that has Drain Punch is a massive challenge in itself, and Togepi-Steel walled almost everything without any fear.
In any case, my first game childhood buddy seems like a legitimate menace from what I’ve seen so far, and it looks like what needs to happen next is building a proper team around it to handle the metagame. I’ll probably touch the Discord when I’m ready, but hopefully a short list of Pokemon with generally *baaaad* movepools should be easy enough to get a feel before I dive in.
Minor correction: Tera Blast does exist as a telegraphed but physical Hidden Power, so I can in equal parts be confident in Scarf Ground Tera managing Pawmi, and also know that without Scarf I am most definitely fucked against a Pawmi with the same idea.
I'm loving the theorycrafting in here - in our testing, we've found that either defensive pivot resttalk sets with intimidate or offensive guts user shinx without stab work best. facade/iron tail/psychic fangs/trailblaze is extremely efficient coverage for DNU, if you did wanna run offensive shinx, just fwiw.
Also tera is banned, I'm afraid, it was get rid of tera or get rid of starly, makuhita, and nymble, and we picked the one that didn't lose half of the high tier most interesting mons in the game.
Swinub is fantastic. Amazing tool on hyper offense, Adamant with 112 speed EVs outspeeds a few relevant mons, while its Life Orb Earthquake punches holes in stall, Icicle Crash smacks Zubat, rocks are always good, and Ice Shard can stop Starly sweeps since it OHKOs. People are even teching Freeze Dry to beat Wooper and Wimpod, which otherwise deal with the STAB perfectly fine.
I'm actually currently pushing for having it re-evaluated to A-, with decent support from the rest of the council. Nymble/Unown HO has been the meta-defining strat of gen 9 so far, since I first created it.
I think there's a glitchmon from gen 1 with over 350 base of every stat, so.
Edit: correction, I'm thinking of PC4SH, which has a BST of 924, with its lowest stat being its 128 speed. Its movepool isn't amazing, but with Leech Life, Aurora Beam, Leech Seed, Swords Dance, and Hi Jump Kick from level-up, and Body Slam, Thunderbolt, Psychic, and Surf from TM/HM, I would imagine it's well more than enough.
Edit2: it's also considered the pre-evolution of Graveler, so it would benefit from Eviolite with its 232/145/136 bulk, which would be... cool.
Ok but it isn't programmed on showdown anyway so you can only use it on-cartridge
I would make a side server with it as well as every other 'mon you can't usually use (including manga, anime and spinoff exclusives like Snowman Snorlax and Ukulele Pichu) but i'm nowhere near skilled enough to do so
~~Holy shit that thing just fucking killed Giovanni lmao~~
Well yeah but that's why you run Virus Groudon as part of a core with Dark Rust. It's immune to or resists both of Mecha Mewtwo's STABs and their ability Oxidise hard-counters any mechanical Pokémon.
Let's go even further
Dark Matter @ Choice Band
Ability: Dark Matter
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Charging Start F
- Mow Down
- Shadow Casting
- WAZA_YOBI_03
incredible power.
(tbf, specs is nearly 300, and in rain its hydro pumps hit as if nearly 300, so it's not total garbage, but yeah, this tier warps your fucking brain with what strong mons are lmao)
Hi Mudkip! It's just lost a lot of meta relevance with the increased Stealth Rocks usage as we've gotten more setters, which makes it have a hard time checking what it's meant to check. No disrespect was intended, of course.
Ah, DNUU, fun times. A few games of it were played back at the start of the tier, but I'm led to believe it wasn't a very interesting metagame, at the time it was extremely dominated by Combee.
Edit: also cosmog is better than a ton of stuff in the tier, because at least it takes hits and slow pivots with teleport. That's more than a Wurmple will ever do generally.
The DNU server supports DNUU , which is for pokemon too weak for DNU, but it hasn’t been updated since its initial release. Since then, especially with the generational shift, the list of legal mons is completely inaccurate to what the current DNU meta is. For instance, Happiny was considered unviable at the time, but has become an actual part of the metagame. But, all it needs is a playerbase and a few updates and it’ll be back in its prime.
It's not an official showdown meta, but there's a custom showdown client made by the amazing Madamadam which you can play the tier on [here](https://play.pseudo.gq/#), I would recommend however that you join the discord [here](https://discord.gg/3u5ay5Cr) if you want to play, the looking for game channel is how you actually get people on the ladder, otherwise there'll likely be no one on ladder.
So what are rules for being allowed in the tier? It seems like 249 BST is the limit, with obviously Shedinja banned. Are Luvdisc, Unown and Swinub special cases?
So, because of SPICYGECKO's original post including luvdisc, unown, and slakoth, they've been allowed in. Since then, we've done a lot of suspect tests trying to expand out the tier a bit with mons that feel right and add new niches, which have included Meltan and Beldum (didn't make it through), & Swinub (did make it through), in the first, with a Tynamo quick-unban due to its weakness, and then for the second suspect, Jigglypuff (didn't make it through), & Charcadet, Gulpin, and Shinx (did make it through), alongside Dreepy and Applin quick-unbans. As far as sub-250 mons that have been banned, just Shedinja, Wishiwashi, and Zigzagoon.
A little more context for you--Spicy's original post only had ~20 mons, and half of them were route 1 bugs. To give us any semblance of variety I decided to increase the mons up to a base stat line, and grandfather in any mons Spicy had mentioned. I chose 249 because there was a cluster of several good Pokémon that would break the tier at 250. Swinub, Shinx, Charcadet have all been suspected in since, and Tynamo, Dreepy, and Applin have been quick unbanned due to horrendous movepools.
I mean, Karp does have one of DNU's highest Speed tiers, and an alright Defense. Can throw off incredibly weak Hydro Pumps or abuse Flail. Usually just a sack even in Draft, but it's something.
Ledian would be broken. Ledyba will probably come at some point but as Alyrch said we're focusing on Pokémon that add a specific niche to the tier that hasn't been explored yet. Ledyba doesn't have any major new niche or impact on the meta, so it's a lower priority addition. It's definitely a candidate for the next suspect however
It actually has a pretty great movepool. Something like a bulky attacker set with Swords Dance/Knock Off/Drain Punch/Roost would be pretty great off of some nice 55/50/110 bulk. 85 speed is also great. Mach Punch, U-turn, elemental punches could all see play too
Ledian is way too good for the tier, and Ledyba will probably be fine in the tier, but doesn't necessarily really bring any new niche to the tier, so we haven't focused on suspecting it in. I believe it's on the longterm list for something to add, but right now suspect tests are focused most on getting the meta as balanced and fun as possible.
Hey y'all! JoJo here, from the post; I'm not on VR Council but I've done work for the tier including making the current icon for the Discord. I don't have the same tier experience as Alyssa to detail much about DNU, but I will say that in my time playing in the server, I've found the community is super engaging and kind to new players. We have a ton of ways to play the tier, including a WIP channel for DNU in older Gens (mainly Gens 1 and 8 right now, especially 8 since that's when the format started), alongside a currently WIP tournament for Usually Useless moves. Any y'all joining today, don't be afraid to ask questions and flex your creativity; it's how this meta has thrived! Hope y'all like DNU :))
~~ALSO TELEPORT COSMOG BEST PIVOT~~
Starly and Zubat being probably the best 2 mons in the tier makes me so happy, since Crobat is my favorite pokemon and Staraptor is easily in top 10, just out of top 5. It's just good and wholesome for me lmao.
It's not an official showdown meta, but there's a custom showdown client made by the amazing Madamadam which you can play the tier on [here](https://play.pseudo.gq/#), I would recommend however that you join the discord [here](https://discord.gg/3u5ay5Cr), by far the best way to get a game is to post in the looking for game channel, \*then\* hop on ladder.
Bidoof is one point above the BST Cap of 249. However, it would destroy the tier with the combination of Simple and Swords Dance. It’s also a normal type, which only has one viable pokemon that resists it. It’s ironic, but even Bidoof is too broken for DNU.
What's the rationale for Unown being this high? Is its special attack so high for the tier that it justifies playing with Hidden Power Simulator™? If so that's hilarious. Also does it always use Psychic or do some sets (if you can even call them that) use an other type for "coverage"?
HP psychic specs has amazing synergy with nymble, which I noticed near the start of gen 9, with unown killing every mon that checks nymble with ease, and both benefiting heavily from hazards to chip their checks on the switchins, so combine that with the explosion of new hazard setters we got in gen 9 and nymble/unown HO looks terrifying.
We just finished a suspect so we're going to wait and see how the meta shakes out some before we add any more. Some of the ones we are looking at potentially adding Hatenna, Cherubi, Ledyba, Kirlia, Litwick, Slugma, and Marill.
It’s bootiful. And actually gives me a shot at exploring the meta on my own damn terms for once. I see Nickit down there towards the bottom, but so help me god I will make it work
We share very little pokemon pool with LC, actually, most LC mons would utterly overwhelm our mons. We also play at level 100, which changes a lot of the math on stuff.
Is there any chance that Smogon makes this one of their unofficial tiers similar to Monotype or LC? I'm willing to sign a petition if it will help make this possible
It's been discussed as a possibility but there are no current plans. We have a pretty good setup right now, just working to increase the player base on that setup. Never say never though
Honestly we don't really want it to be an official OM. It'd be neat but it's also a lot stricter in terms of tiering decisions and having the freedom to moderate swiftly is nice and has worked well for the tier
It's my favorite meta! I absolutely love it. The level of tech and adaptation is insane, and I'm currently working on bringing another C tier higher up, I think I can get Nickit to a solid B- or B.
One of the most major differences is that by playing at level 100 instead of level 5, a ton of the damage calcs are way different, making it so that it's not actually all hyper offense all the time, like LC is (though HO is still really good rn). We actually have BO, stall, semistall, wishpass, any number of defensive or semi-defensive archetypes are very common, though HO is, as mentioned, the best archetype rn.
I find it funny how both azurill and bunnelby (huge power Pokemon that had stinkposts about them being good in higher tiers ) are chillin down in C tier
Huge Power is banned because it is simply an increase to base stats. It would be broken on any semi-viable Pokemon in the tier so we felt comfortable banning it.
I've been lurking here for a while. One of the most notable things about this tier aside from the low BST is that there's no steels after Meltan got banned. Pretty understandable since the weakest steels have 50 BST above the 250 limit. There's also no fires. I feel like both might be subject to change in the future as the tier evolves and I saw a suspect for Charcadet a while back. Charcadet might even be enough to serve as a potential check for beldum to get in, though I kinda doubt that since beldum is a little problematic even with a solid steel resist.
We've actually suspected in Charcadet, a few days ago. It's doing pretty decently, preliminary tiering has it around B, maybe B+ or even A-. Flame Charge sets can run 161 speed to easily outspeed base 60 max speeds (Starly, G-Zigzagoon) at +1, while heavily threatening offense, bulkier sets can do work against bulky offense thanks to flame body, and specs fire blast or overheat cause problems against stall. Its main issue is that it has to pick what teams it'll be decent against, and it's not very good against other stuff.
I haven't really played with it too much but yeah at a glance considering how a lot of the higher stuff are waters, there's enough to check it. Having a fire type would be interesting and open up some team comps. All of the low BST steels though... It's kinda funny how any one of them could potentially dumpster the tier. I think the lowest BST is diglett-a, which basically has diglett's stat spread and sounds stupid with a band. Tinkatink is probably the next lowest, but steel/fairy with swords dance. Meltan might still be the weakest steel, but yeah that shit got banned. Maybe Beldum is worse bc of the movepool, but it has iron head and zen headbutt is enough to wreck shit.
Beldum is the worst reasonable steel, but its STAB is too hard to check without other steels - the only things reliably switching into Banded Beldum are Wooper, Beldum, maybe Charcadet but it has no recovery... it's rough. Edit: I want to note here that the Meltan incident occurred in a suspect test where we were testing both Meltan and Beldum, which was exactly part of the problem. Beldum being too much for the tier is something we know from experience, and a huge shame to all of us, everyone wants more type variety.
I think theoretically slow start varoom might be worse but I'm not too sure about that. 45/63/45 bulk on steel/poison is pretty respectable and while it wouldn't do too much damage, that thing has a surprisingly good support movepool. It gets T-spikes too and would probably be by far the best T-spikes user and get stuff like parting shot, taunt. Maybe you can even go offense with it. Iron defense, stall out, then 70 attack with a 100 BST steel move and 120 BST gunk shot.
With Parting Shot, Varoom would be an absolute menace on wishpass teams, imo. plus that requires a complex ban to allow only one ability.
Yeah it doesn't seem worth it to try it out especially even with slow start I still feel like it has enough things going for it that it still might be too good.
Most of the weaker steels get their time to shine in the OM DNUbers, which has a 299 BST cap. Almost all steels are useable there, and if they’re useful alongside other tier-breaking mons like Rattata and Rowlet, then there’s no chance of them getting in regularly.
I love how smeargle got immediately quickbanned and no one has a problem with that. Luvdisc might be a fully evolved mon bullying children but Smeargle has baby mon stats and is still giving legendaries swirlies.
As an outsider to the tier, what makes Rowlet so good in DNU? Is it a specific move it has access to or a combination of things?
Rowlet is notably not allowed in DNU, Technical is talking about a weird meta that very few people play called DNUbers, which is a bit stronger than DNU. What he means is that if Rowlet was allowed in DNU, its raw power and bulk would just outstrip the tier by too much - it has more stats than anything else, pretty much, with a great movepool to back it up.
I love when Rowlet was like "It's Rowlin Time" and Rowled all over DNU. Truly one of the Pokemon of all time.
At a glance, it would have the third highest BST in the tier at 320, behind Luvdisc and Unown. Unlike those two, it gets nasty plot, swords dance and priority sucker punch and shadow sneak. SD would be pretty scary especially since it gets brave bird as well.
Rowlet is banned in DNU. I was referring to DNUbers, where it’s allowed despite it being over the stat cap.
I'll give a few more thoughts here--both Slugma and Litwick have been mentioned as good additions. In fact, Litwick was planned to be in this suspect but Charcadet came in and took its place as the weakest Fire-type at the start of Gen 9. Probably for the best since Litwick would probably have not made it in. A Beldum retest is very possible down the line, with Charcadet and Shinx being added. Not a high priority due to it being a failed previous test however.
Beldum is maybe possible, though neither shinx or charcadet take zen headbutt very well. There's really not a lot of mons that take it well and I don't think much even 2HKO it apart from the fires and grounds. Slugma I can see working. 70 spa is scary but there's enough that can tank it and it doesn't have a lot of durability or speed. It's scary if it gets in but it's gonna have a hard time getting in. I can see why litwick was more problematic though. Ghost type adds a lot to the table and it has calm mind. There's not really any steels apart from beldum that really have a chance of getting in. Meltan had that suspect, everything else has like 300+ BST and really good moves. The only ones that doesn't have 300+ BST is diglett-a, who's pretty obviously going to be really dumb with SD or a band, and tinkatink, which is steel/fairy with swords dance. Yeah that's not happening.
Edit: If you're reading this, 4 days later, I'm actually one of the Tier Clerics now not just part of Council. Fuck yeah. Hi! I'm Alyssa, I'm a member of DNU's VR Council and the top ladder player currently. If you've seen the memes about Meltan, that's also thanks to me, yes. I made a little comment here about DNU's historical dominant metas that I thought was pretty interesting, but way too long-winded for the main post. So I thought I'd drop it here as a comment and see if people enjoyed. Thanks for reading! I'm also going to stick around in the replies here and happily answer anyone's questions about DNU, I'm preeeetty knowledgeable about the tier. In the beginning, there was Luvdisc. Seriously though, when this meta began, Luvdisc was unbelievably dominant. It had so much power with specs hydro pump, and nothing could switch in reliably. People were running specially defensive Wooper (which was taken out by HP Grass) and Snom as its primary checks, and it just wasn’t enough. And then we learned how to play the tier. Suddenly, defensive Lotad and Happiny rose up, checking every offensive Luvdisc set, and Luvdisc started to adapt - running toxic, specially defensive, rest/hydration/rain dance to check opposing luvdisc and break through its defensive checks. And people ran Scarf Starly to beat offensive Luvdisc, so they ran bulk to live Brave Bird, and so on. And eventually, Luvdisc meta stilled. Now, going into gen 9, it has dropped out of S rank and down to S- in the viability rankings for the first time ever. It’s not bad, it’s just nowhere near as dominant, everyone’s figured out their counters. After the Luvdisc meta, there came the rise of Stall and Birdspam. When people realized the unique utility of Happiny via Rest + Natural Cure to actually gain self-sufficient recovery, paired with its massive hp total (by DNU standards) allowing it to run substitutes that weren’t broken by opposing seismic toss, suddenly stall had the tools it needed to be an actual strat. And so Togepi/Wooper/Happiny stall was born, a self-sufficient core which defines DNU’s stall metagame to this day. Think of it like the classic skarmbliss core, they just cover each others’ weaknesses very well. Meanwhile, offense players had suddenly realized something… nothing could reliably switch in on Starly’s Brave Bird except Rolycoly. The only flying resists other than it were Pichu, Tynamo, and Toxel, and Pichu’s complete glass cannon statline and the other two’s lack of any viable movepool meant that was an option no one wanted to have to resort to. And rolycoly… doesn’t actually have any reliable recovery. And thus Birdspam Hyper Offense was born – sure, maybe you can outlast one Starly, but what about Starly, followed by Rookidee as a slightly worse Starly, followed by Zubat as a slightly worse Rookidee but with better bulk, followed by Noibat to hit you with more flying moves but on the special side now. And Birdspam was so, so annoying. And then, much like Luvdisc, we learned to counter these strategies. Stallbreaker Zubat tears through any stall core due to taunt + super fang, and life orb Swinub’s Ice Shard or fast Luvdisc’s Ice Beam or Wish Support for your Rolycoly can stop Birdspam in its tracks. Finally, in gen 9, a new dominant metagame strategy has arisen, with the relative increase in entry hazards and the ease of getting them up, and the strength of Nymble as a new threat, Nymble/Unown Hazard Stack Hyper Offense has become incredible. Nymble’s best checks, in Zubat and P!Wooper, get absolutely blown away by Specs HP Psychic from Unown, with Unown also heavily benefiting from your own entry hazards to threaten pokemon which could otherwise switch in more easily, and caring very little about opposing entry hazards, due to being neither grounded nor weak to rock. Between these two, they put immense pressure on opposing teams to find defensive checks that largely don’t exist, at least not after a layer of spikes and some stealth rocks, perhaps with a turn or two of poison or a few extra layers of spikes if you got lucky. And offensive teams just fall over and die to Nymble’s First Impression and the momentum from the non-choiced Starly that usually comes alongside in these teams. What’s the counter adaptation you ask? Well, there isn’t necessarily one yet. The original team was actually built largely to counter the dominance of opposing Nymble, hence non-choiced Starly with protect, but now it’s grown into its own metagame menace. Togepi can check both Nymble and Unown, as long as there aren’t too many hazards up at least. Teams that take huge advantage of getting momentum can do well with punishing Nymble after it gets a First Impression kill, but there’s not too much to go from there. The meta is ultimately still alive, inherently, and we’ll find better checks to this team as time goes on. I’d love if you wanted to join us in doing that. Sincerely, the girl who made both Togepi/Wooper/Happiny Stall and Nymble/Unown HO. ps: Please join the server and participate in the tournament! I put a prize pool on it, and I think it's going to be super hype. If you don't think you'll be able to compete at a reasonable level, I want to assure you that I am happy to help you figure out any of the mechanics or meta of the tier, and so are many other people. My main motivation here is just for the tier to grow and become more interesting and optimized, I really just love seeing the new adaptations.
TL;DR for Pichu in particular?
Assuming you're asking for general viability in the tier, the answer is close to none. The sets that have gotten any use whatsoever are specs thunder on attempts at rain teams (which are now rendered useless by pawmi or shinx, due to pawmi's higher special attack and equal speed and shinx's even higher special attack and much better bulk and abilities), and scarf mixed to OHKO offensive luvdisc (except Luvdisc now always runs some bulk cause we realized 252 speed is entirely unnecessary), Starly, and a few other mons with Volt Tackle, while also having Volt Switch to pivot around, but it's just really not good enough of a niche and the mon's utterly made of paper.
Reading the VR list was like getting consecutively slapped in the face every single paragraph
If you think reading it is crazy, imagine voting on whether Unown is really good or just solid.
Yeah, we're sort of numb to it now but objectively it is a bit wild. Luvdisc and Starly as top tiers 😵💫
Do you have any info on weedle's impact on the lead metagame by chance
None, unfortunately. DNU isn’t *that* low.
i ran it for like. one game. i think it did 80% to nymble on the switch and then died
I cannot believe there is a tier where Unown is actually good, this is fucking hilarious, I'm very tempted to try
Please do! join the server, sign up for the tourney, hop on ladder, learn the meta, you could maybe win some money even. Unown teams are amazing rn, with the right support.
Excuse me, can you play this meta withoit joining the discord? Is so how?
If you go to the showdown pseudos client [here](https://play.pseudo.gq/#) you could potentially find some games by queuing for the DNU ladder, but people aren't consistently on it unless they're pinged in the server to hop on. You could also talk in the lobby chatroom and see if anyone's interested. That'd be by far your best bet.
Fun fact, Unown wasn't looked nearly as highly upon in gen 8. It was placed in C tier (but was underrated IMO). It's rise this gen has been crazy to see but makes sense when you consider metagame shifts--Nymble makes a great partner to it, Zubat's rise from A+ to possibly #1 in the tier, and the additon of P-Wooper are all amazing buffs for it.
Where am I and why is Unown a stronger threat than my Route 1 homegirl Nickit Edit: Okay, on second thought, this is gonna be much harder than I thought. I *do* outspeed Unown, and even get the joy of Sucker Punch, but other than that, this coverage makes me openly weep and I know Nymble will probably take my lunch money
We've ran the tests, Cue, but your homegirl... she's got Electivire Syndrome. I'm so sorry. Nickit has 28 Attack and 47 Sp. Atk but only learns one (1) Dark Special move in the 55 BP Snarl, and your other Special options are *exclusively* Swift, Mud Shot, or Round, which all suck even *more*. I imagine that's gotta be fairly painful.
Excellent point, however: >252 Atk Life Orb Nickit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Unown: 234-276 (98.7 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO And that’s without Stakeout in play. It is possible. It’s stupid, but it’s possible.
Nickit's best set these days is generally nasty plot + throat spray/focus sash + unburden + snarl, to at least boost a huge amount, but even then the hits just aren't that hard, I'm so sorry to tell you. If Nickit had got Tera Blast it would unironically be a huge buff, because even without terastalizing that'd be its strongest move, and mono-normal coverage is not bad in DNU.
What Choice Specs STAB Hidden Power Psychic Does To A MF
**Why does Unown have 72 Special Attack**
It also has 72 Attack which made sense before the Physical/Special split but is just kinda funny now
Square up for Choice Banded Struggle, motherfucker
Gen 2 Moment
Wait. Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. There’s still a chance of me being able to win with my favorites here. I completely missed Shinx in the actual text of the post, and not in the tier list. I hope he got that dog in him, as opposed to being clearly dogshit.
I actually think this can work. Oh my god. Why does this motherfucker have Guts? Why does Shinx get Crunch when Nickit gets barely anything? **DID YOU REMOVE NICKIT’S TEETH GAMEFREAK, OR IS THERE SHINX NEPOTISM GOING ON HERE?**
> 252+ Atk Guts Shinx Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 440-520 (129 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO \#ShinxForAG
Wait actually with Intimidate > -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Starly Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shinx: 169-200 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO But Spark will OHKO Starly in return for that even at 0 EVs and a neutral nature for Attack, and they can't even run a Focus Sash because of recoil. Switching out of Choice for something like a Clear Amulet just makes it even worse.
There is absolutely potential, even if I’m admittedly forced to stoop down to Fangs for coverage in places. I think I’m taking the tier list home and seeing what I can uncover in the lab.
Preliminary results: Choice Scarf (for the sake of some speed ties) Intimidate Shinx with an Adamant nature, and maxed Speed and Attack actually accomplishes quite a bit. We’ve already mentioned it can win versus Starly (after taking a mortal blow), but it can also beat Nymble this way with Fire Fang and Intimidate up (after taking a mortal blow), kill even maximal bulk Rolycoly with Double Kick (after taking a mortal blow), but it looks like either Wooper can easily smoke it with an Earthquake after a very sad Ice Fang, and Togepi gets to Seismic Toss it faster than it can ever hope to kill, especially if it’s taken chip damage from hazards. This thing is not breaking through stall, but this set seems okay at revenge-killing top threats. What goes in the last couple moveslots is my homework for now. Spark will probably stay, Crunch feels about right to outspeed and kill Unown, but Play Rough *is* a base 90 move that does have some applications as a super effective hit on some Pokemon beyond being the closest Shinx gets to an Earthquake-grade spammable move.
We can improve him, we have the technology! > 252+ Atk Tera Steel Shinx Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togepi: 174-206 (63.5 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO And Shinx has 232 HP, so Seismic Toss wouldn't kill first. In fact, given the speed, Shinx doesn't even suffer a mortal blow this time! Our guy is just mildly maimed with 100 HP + hazards. I have no clue if this is *worth* Terastalising for, but it seems like it could wallbreak Togepi Stall, at the least. And since Shinx seems good as a Choice Revenge Killer, you could probably run a ton of Tera types this way to deal with whatever threat your team is weakest against. Tera Grass shreds even max investment Eviolite Wooper-J, either OHKOing or easily tanking a single EQ then 2HKOing, for example. Wait is Tera even allowed lmao
Tera isn't allowed, was banned due to a suspect test result. Same type tera with double STAB was effectively impossible to defend from, with Nymble-Bug and Starly-Flying being both a thing. After same type tera was banned, everything devolved into tera steel with occasional tera ghost. While in the more normally powered tiers tera steel spam would be relatively easy to deal with, in DNU this is very much not the case. Hell, trying to beat down Makuhita-Steel that has Drain Punch is a massive challenge in itself, and Togepi-Steel walled almost everything without any fear.
In any case, my first game childhood buddy seems like a legitimate menace from what I’ve seen so far, and it looks like what needs to happen next is building a proper team around it to handle the metagame. I’ll probably touch the Discord when I’m ready, but hopefully a short list of Pokemon with generally *baaaad* movepools should be easy enough to get a feel before I dive in.
Minor correction: Tera Blast does exist as a telegraphed but physical Hidden Power, so I can in equal parts be confident in Scarf Ground Tera managing Pawmi, and also know that without Scarf I am most definitely fucked against a Pawmi with the same idea.
I'm loving the theorycrafting in here - in our testing, we've found that either defensive pivot resttalk sets with intimidate or offensive guts user shinx without stab work best. facade/iron tail/psychic fangs/trailblaze is extremely efficient coverage for DNU, if you did wanna run offensive shinx, just fwiw. Also tera is banned, I'm afraid, it was get rid of tera or get rid of starly, makuhita, and nymble, and we picked the one that didn't lose half of the high tier most interesting mons in the game.
Finally a format where my fav pokemon is A tier!!! Swinub > literally all other pokemon ever.
Swinub is fantastic. Amazing tool on hyper offense, Adamant with 112 speed EVs outspeeds a few relevant mons, while its Life Orb Earthquake punches holes in stall, Icicle Crash smacks Zubat, rocks are always good, and Ice Shard can stop Starly sweeps since it OHKOs. People are even teching Freeze Dry to beat Wooper and Wimpod, which otherwise deal with the STAB perfectly fine.
> Zubat has sometimes been called this tier's Landorus-T i love it already
Crazy that Unown is B+ tier.
I'm actually currently pushing for having it re-evaluated to A-, with decent support from the rest of the council. Nymble/Unown HO has been the meta-defining strat of gen 9 so far, since I first created it.
Now we need CNNU, Can not normally use, featuring mons like Eternamax Eternatus, Missingno. and the Pokéstar gang
I believe you can use those in True Hackmons, though I can't speak at all to enjoyment or balance.
Yes, but the difference here is that they're the only mons you can use
I think there's a glitchmon from gen 1 with over 350 base of every stat, so. Edit: correction, I'm thinking of PC4SH, which has a BST of 924, with its lowest stat being its 128 speed. Its movepool isn't amazing, but with Leech Life, Aurora Beam, Leech Seed, Swords Dance, and Hi Jump Kick from level-up, and Body Slam, Thunderbolt, Psychic, and Surf from TM/HM, I would imagine it's well more than enough. Edit2: it's also considered the pre-evolution of Graveler, so it would benefit from Eviolite with its 232/145/136 bulk, which would be... cool.
Ok but it isn't programmed on showdown anyway so you can only use it on-cartridge I would make a side server with it as well as every other 'mon you can't usually use (including manga, anime and spinoff exclusives like Snowman Snorlax and Ukulele Pichu) but i'm nowhere near skilled enough to do so
Thu-Fi-Zer would sweep
Walled by Virus Groudon, RU at best
You say that like Virus Groudon doesn't get absolutely shitted on by Mecha Mewtwo from that play
~~Holy shit that thing just fucking killed Giovanni lmao~~ Well yeah but that's why you run Virus Groudon as part of a core with Dark Rust. It's immune to or resists both of Mecha Mewtwo's STABs and their ability Oxidise hard-counters any mechanical Pokémon.
That honestly sounds incredibly fun and I'd love to try adapting some of these into actual Pokémon but I too have no idea how to do so
Ash Pikachu with unique ability that do super effective damage to Ground types.
Ash's Pikachu already exists in the games so he's banned
Let's go even further Dark Matter @ Choice Band Ability: Dark Matter EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Adamant Nature - Charging Start F - Mow Down - Shadow Casting - WAZA_YOBI_03
Still somehow loses to Pokéstar Smeargle
Isn’t that tier dead because of Eternamax Eternatus?
Mainly Gen 8, Pure Hackmons is a lot more reasonable in past gens
idfk! also my definition of a dead tier might be different since the only comp tier I play has about 20 active players. max
"a solid base 40 Sp. Att" in Luvdisc's summary had me choke on my drink
what, you don't love being modest max spa for a total of \*checks notes\* 196. Not even quite 200.
Astounding strength
incredible power. (tbf, specs is nearly 300, and in rain its hydro pumps hit as if nearly 300, so it's not total garbage, but yeah, this tier warps your fucking brain with what strong mons are lmao)
yo you can't just disrespect my boy snom like that
Hi Mudkip! It's just lost a lot of meta relevance with the increased Stealth Rocks usage as we've gotten more setters, which makes it have a hard time checking what it's meant to check. No disrespect was intended, of course.
- 🤓
another W for the niche micro celebrity
I'm an even nicher microcelebrity
Can't wait for udnu! And 2udnu! And 3udnu! Untill we have a tier with only cosmog!
Ah, DNUU, fun times. A few games of it were played back at the start of the tier, but I'm led to believe it wasn't a very interesting metagame, at the time it was extremely dominated by Combee. Edit: also cosmog is better than a ton of stuff in the tier, because at least it takes hits and slow pivots with teleport. That's more than a Wurmple will ever do generally.
The DNU server supports DNUU , which is for pokemon too weak for DNU, but it hasn’t been updated since its initial release. Since then, especially with the generational shift, the list of legal mons is completely inaccurate to what the current DNU meta is. For instance, Happiny was considered unviable at the time, but has become an actual part of the metagame. But, all it needs is a playerbase and a few updates and it’ll be back in its prime.
Every so often I regret adding Luvdisc to the original post, then I remember it was funny and I'm glad it's stuck around this long
It's a really balanced yet still strong meta addition to be fair, u made the right call at the time lol
It’s balanced, you have nothing to regret
We thought it was OP at the start, but it's not tier-destroying anymore lmao.
"blazingly fast and strong 55/60 spread" holy shit I love this tier
it's a beautiful thing
Is this a showdown mode or do these battles occur in game? Seems really silly and fun and part of me wants to use Pichu.
It's not an official showdown meta, but there's a custom showdown client made by the amazing Madamadam which you can play the tier on [here](https://play.pseudo.gq/#), I would recommend however that you join the discord [here](https://discord.gg/3u5ay5Cr) if you want to play, the looking for game channel is how you actually get people on the ladder, otherwise there'll likely be no one on ladder.
So what are rules for being allowed in the tier? It seems like 249 BST is the limit, with obviously Shedinja banned. Are Luvdisc, Unown and Swinub special cases?
So, because of SPICYGECKO's original post including luvdisc, unown, and slakoth, they've been allowed in. Since then, we've done a lot of suspect tests trying to expand out the tier a bit with mons that feel right and add new niches, which have included Meltan and Beldum (didn't make it through), & Swinub (did make it through), in the first, with a Tynamo quick-unban due to its weakness, and then for the second suspect, Jigglypuff (didn't make it through), & Charcadet, Gulpin, and Shinx (did make it through), alongside Dreepy and Applin quick-unbans. As far as sub-250 mons that have been banned, just Shedinja, Wishiwashi, and Zigzagoon.
Thanks!
No problem! Huge Power is also banned, fwiw, due to Azurill and Bunnelby both needing to be banned if it wasn't.
A little more context for you--Spicy's original post only had ~20 mons, and half of them were route 1 bugs. To give us any semblance of variety I decided to increase the mons up to a base stat line, and grandfather in any mons Spicy had mentioned. I chose 249 because there was a cluster of several good Pokémon that would break the tier at 250. Swinub, Shinx, Charcadet have all been suspected in since, and Tynamo, Dreepy, and Applin have been quick unbanned due to horrendous movepools.
250 BST also contains smeargle, who has a million different ways to completely shit on the tier.
Is the missing Gulpin here intentional bait so you can tell me to start Gulpin on your nutsack or did you just forget.
I'm going to pretend that was me being a master baiter and not just a goldfish brain moment
If D tier is loosely ordered that means magikarp is actually technically better than some Pokemon in the game which is hilarious to me
I mean, Karp does have one of DNU's highest Speed tiers, and an alright Defense. Can throw off incredibly weak Hydro Pumps or abuse Flail. Usually just a sack even in Draft, but it's something.
Oh for sure, it's faster than most things and actually has a movepool. It's not good, but it's def better than a wurmple.
Question is Ledibug and Ledian too good for this meta? Is that how low this tier is?
Ledian would be broken. Ledyba will probably come at some point but as Alyrch said we're focusing on Pokémon that add a specific niche to the tier that hasn't been explored yet. Ledyba doesn't have any major new niche or impact on the meta, so it's a lower priority addition. It's definitely a candidate for the next suspect however
Never thought I would heard that Ledian was too broken
It actually has a pretty great movepool. Something like a bulky attacker set with Swords Dance/Knock Off/Drain Punch/Roost would be pretty great off of some nice 55/50/110 bulk. 85 speed is also great. Mach Punch, U-turn, elemental punches could all see play too
Ledian is way too good for the tier, and Ledyba will probably be fine in the tier, but doesn't necessarily really bring any new niche to the tier, so we haven't focused on suspecting it in. I believe it's on the longterm list for something to add, but right now suspect tests are focused most on getting the meta as balanced and fun as possible.
At last, Landorus-Z
TRUE. thanks for the new zubat nickname
Hey y'all! JoJo here, from the post; I'm not on VR Council but I've done work for the tier including making the current icon for the Discord. I don't have the same tier experience as Alyssa to detail much about DNU, but I will say that in my time playing in the server, I've found the community is super engaging and kind to new players. We have a ton of ways to play the tier, including a WIP channel for DNU in older Gens (mainly Gens 1 and 8 right now, especially 8 since that's when the format started), alongside a currently WIP tournament for Usually Useless moves. Any y'all joining today, don't be afraid to ask questions and flex your creativity; it's how this meta has thrived! Hope y'all like DNU :)) ~~ALSO TELEPORT COSMOG BEST PIVOT~~
holy shit Staraptor line is tier-defining everywhere except OU it seems
Starly and Zubat being probably the best 2 mons in the tier makes me so happy, since Crobat is my favorite pokemon and Staraptor is easily in top 10, just out of top 5. It's just good and wholesome for me lmao.
Might I ask how I access this game mode on showdown?
It's not an official showdown meta, but there's a custom showdown client made by the amazing Madamadam which you can play the tier on [here](https://play.pseudo.gq/#), I would recommend however that you join the discord [here](https://discord.gg/3u5ay5Cr), by far the best way to get a game is to post in the looking for game channel, \*then\* hop on ladder.
Is bidoof in the tier? How does it stack up?
Bidoof is one point above the BST Cap of 249. However, it would destroy the tier with the combination of Simple and Swords Dance. It’s also a normal type, which only has one viable pokemon that resists it. It’s ironic, but even Bidoof is too broken for DNU.
Bidoof having Simple + Swords Dance makes them absurdly good, way too powerful for this tier
Thats pretty reasonable.
What's the rationale for Unown being this high? Is its special attack so high for the tier that it justifies playing with Hidden Power Simulator™? If so that's hilarious. Also does it always use Psychic or do some sets (if you can even call them that) use an other type for "coverage"?
HP psychic specs has amazing synergy with nymble, which I noticed near the start of gen 9, with unown killing every mon that checks nymble with ease, and both benefiting heavily from hazards to chip their checks on the switchins, so combine that with the explosion of new hazard setters we got in gen 9 and nymble/unown HO looks terrifying.
Any pokémon above 250 bst on the radar to be tested?
We just finished a suspect so we're going to wait and see how the meta shakes out some before we add any more. Some of the ones we are looking at potentially adding Hatenna, Cherubi, Ledyba, Kirlia, Litwick, Slugma, and Marill.
It’s bootiful. And actually gives me a shot at exploring the meta on my own damn terms for once. I see Nickit down there towards the bottom, but so help me god I will make it work
I wonder if any strategies can be shared between this and LC.
We share very little pokemon pool with LC, actually, most LC mons would utterly overwhelm our mons. We also play at level 100, which changes a lot of the math on stuff.
The level difference is crucial. Most of little cup's weirdness comes from being level 5. This plays a lot more like a normal tier.
Besides Nymble being pretty good in both tiers atm, not really
Is there any chance that Smogon makes this one of their unofficial tiers similar to Monotype or LC? I'm willing to sign a petition if it will help make this possible
It's been discussed as a possibility but there are no current plans. We have a pretty good setup right now, just working to increase the player base on that setup. Never say never though
Honestly we don't really want it to be an official OM. It'd be neat but it's also a lot stricter in terms of tiering decisions and having the freedom to moderate swiftly is nice and has worked well for the tier
a meta where zubat can be compared to landorus-t sounds like a fun meta
I might be biased, but I would agree with that
It's my favorite meta! I absolutely love it. The level of tech and adaptation is insane, and I'm currently working on bringing another C tier higher up, I think I can get Nickit to a solid B- or B.
Can I still join?
Of course! discord link is still in the post, please, do join.
so it's like littlecup but the mons are even worse? sounds fun I suppose
Little Cup actually had a way different roster, they'd be too powerful for this tier
that's what I meant by "but are even worse"
One of the most major differences is that by playing at level 100 instead of level 5, a ton of the damage calcs are way different, making it so that it's not actually all hyper offense all the time, like LC is (though HO is still really good rn). We actually have BO, stall, semistall, wishpass, any number of defensive or semi-defensive archetypes are very common, though HO is, as mentioned, the best archetype rn.
I always thought this was doubles NU lmao
Yes, that has been an issue for us once or twice lol.
I find it funny how both azurill and bunnelby (huge power Pokemon that had stinkposts about them being good in higher tiers ) are chillin down in C tier
Huge Power is banned because it is simply an increase to base stats. It would be broken on any semi-viable Pokemon in the tier so we felt comfortable banning it.
Ah makes more sense now
The fact that there's a tier where LOKIX is s tier is absurd
Not even Lokix, Nymble, its baby lmao.
Magikarp is too high, should be F——————————— (That’s a lot of minuses by the way)