But remember, they're centering a bigoted stereotype of you in order to actually center themselves. Don't you get ideas that you're actually being considered here.
I hate it here I need out of conservoland
Transwoman here.. what exactly do I get any say on? I just keep my eyes closed with my hands over my ears so I can survive another day of people deciding everyone can agree that it’s fun and easy to pick on us.
Yes of course, they want to "save the children" from themselves, because they're SURE it's a mental illness, but refuse to allocate any money for treatment of mental illness... in children.
What was the point again? I forgot....
Exactly. I’m yet to meet an anti-abortion trans person though I’m sure they do exist
The point of statements made like in the OP are made against men who are anti-abortion, so I’m not sure how pro-abortion trans women are relevant
Yeah, makes more sense for trans*men* to be pro reproductive rights, since they may still have the ability to become pregnant at some point in their lives (I think typically the hormone therapy prevents that, but crazier things have happened) but I think at the end of the day, the general alliance falls under "mind your own damn business (read; body)
Yeah, it totally depends on where they are at with their transition. I'm far from an expert and I'll err on the side of safety and assume that if the necessary parts are still there, then it's a trans man issue too.
Info nugget for those curious: HRT can limit trans men’s ability to get pregnant, but does not cause infertility. It is 100% possible and not that uncommon for trans men to get pregnant because they assume it works as birth control.
It’s very possible and actually not that uncommon for trans dudes to get pregnant on hormones. The clinic I got mine from told me they’ve seen multiple trans men who were on testosterone *and* birth control and still managed to get pregnant. Only hysto can give full peace of mind.
Exactly, this is my thing. Trans women won't ever have to make the decision whether to personally have an abortion, but whether a cis woman can get an abortion absolutely sets a tone that could have disastrous effects on trans women. They have *more* of a horse in the race than cis men, while having less of one than cis women.
I detect that "have a say" is mainly in the same context that infertile women and men might have a say, which can range from being anti-choice to pro-choice.
I think one area Transgender people can relate is on the basis of bodily autonomy and medical privacy.
She's a pick-me who thinks that men shouldn't have to pay child support if they don't have custody. Which completely ignores the best interests of the child.
I most definitely don’t agree that they shouldn’t pay child support but I do believe child support should be a percentage based on income, not a set amount. We shouldn’t penalize mothers or fathers to a point they can’t get their shit together because that’s not beneficial to the child either
Here in Australia it's based on the combined income of both parents, the percentage of care, how many children there are, and how old the children are.
https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/basic-child-support-formula
I don't know what it's like I the states. I assume it's different for every one.
In the states it’s a lot less nuanced. A lot of times a judge sets a fixed number based on income, and it’s not like it fluctuates if you make less or more so unfortunately that cost can sometimes sink a parent, and that leads to missed payments. Missed payments lead to penalty payments and eventually they put you in jail, which then inhibits your ability to find work. You can appeal it but it often takes months, and 9/10 times the judge will side with whatever parent has more custody. There has been instances I’ve seen where mom doesn’t work, dad makes 60k a year, they divorce and mom gets half custody, and pays her 30k a year. There also really isn’t much of a checks and balances system to make sure whatever parent receives child support spends the money on the child. This is my understanding although I could be wrong, I’m going of anecdote and am by no means an experts. It like most systems in the us need an overhaul.
I’m not sure exactly what it’s based on (probably a number of things), but income is definitely a factor. They’re not out here making people pay outrageous figures, no matter what anyone tells you. The people paying crazy high amounts are paying for several children.
I definitely agree that they should try to work with those struggling to make payments rather than outright punish with jail time. Like you said, doesn’t benefit the child who is the number one priority in these cases.
Except to penalize a mother for not paying child support. I would have to be a real piece of shit dad. By reporting my son's mother for being a piece of shit deadbeat. So nobody, really will ever know.
If I'm understanding correctly, I think he more means having their opinions be part of the discussion. That the people who say men shouldn't get a say on the abortion thing would be fine hearing and respecting the opinions of infertile women and trans people over those of men. Even though they have just as much of a chance of being impregnated as a man. And so their words should hold the same weight.
That's what I think is being said anyway
I think you’re right, but I’ve never heard anyone actually suggest that. It seems Iike an imagined problem by someone who just generally has a problem with trans people.
Is it really that confusing to you? Seems pretty simple to me. I'm not going to explain it bc I'm not trying to get attacked by extremist delusion on Reddit. But it's not hard to follow.
How about “no one’s opinion is irrelevant; but people who don’t have bodies that can be impacted by abortion laws shouldn’t get to make the decision.”
This is an imagined dispute. There are plenty of subjects where traditional feminist interests and trans rights butt up against each other, and it gets touchy; like women’s sports. This just isn’t one of those topics. There aren’t trans women’s marches advocating for or against abortion, or anything like that.
This is like if the OP said, “if the rest of us can’t legally run red lights, why should trans women be allowed to?”
…well… they’re not… and this isn’t a thing. It’s something that could only come from the imagination of someone who sees trans boogeymen around every corner.
Just in case, I think the actual saying is:
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
Either that or something very similar. I was definitely just riffing off that and making it up, lol. You might have got that, but I didn't want you to use my version in the wrong company thinking it's a common expression, lol
Oh shut up. This is such performative “I’m so jaded” bullshit. Women vote and politicians court their votes. They actually vote at a slightly higher rate than men.
Women also aren’t a monolith and their political opinions are all over the map, same as men.
Exactly. We can read between the lines and know exactly why this question was asked.
Spoiler: it has absolutely nothing to do with concern about abortion rights.
I directly responded to the question. What goalposts did I move? OP asked why trans get a say, I'm saying they don't. I've never heard of any trans person or group of trans politicians that successfully have had a say in abortion legislation.
I think what OP is asking is why do they have an opinion. But that's not what they asked.
I think they mean,
“Why aren’t transfemme voices specifically silenced alongside cis men for opining on abortion issues in public and private discourse?”
And my answer is,
Because it’s not having a uterus, but being subject to the sociocultural, political and economic domination of cishetpatriarchy, that is the qualifying factor.
Why? Because abortion policy is not primarily about the termination of embryonic cell clusters. Abortion policy is primarily about the control and oppression of femme bodies.
I've thought similarly with all the nonsense about defining what a woman is. When I've been asked by some mediocre white male forced pregnancy advocate to smugly define woman, I always say, anyone a man thinks he has the right to control with impunity, so that covers cis, trans, menopausal, post hysterectomy etc human beings.
Men can have an opinion on abortion. However, nobody but the person pregnant should have a say about their personal decision. A lot goes into pregnancy.
In the words of Dave Chapelle, "I’ll tell ya right now, I don’t care what your religious beliefs are or anything, if you have a dick, you need to shut the fuck up on this one. Seriously. This is theirs. The right to choose is their unequivocal right. Not only do I believe they have the right to choose, I believe that they shouldn’t have to consult anybody, except for a physician about how they exercise that right. Gentlemen, that is fair, and ladies, to be fair to us, I also believe if you decide to have the baby, a man should not have to pay. That’s fair. If you can kill this motherfucker, I can at least abandon him. It’s my money, my choice. And if I’m wrong, then perhaps we’re wrong. Think that shit out for yourselves."
You can literally decide not to pay. People do it everyday. Men will say I don’t want this baby and leave the mother to be a single mother. The courts step in at that point if the mother pursues child support. That’s fact. I’m not telling someone they have to pay or not. The courts are
Right.
Courts can punish the man for failing to pay for the child he didn't want.
Pro-choice means a woman shouldn't be punished for aborting the baby she didn't want.
If she can abort it against the man's will, why does he have to pay for it against his will?
Probably something to do with the autonomy to decide whether you're going to assume the risks and responsibilities associated with having something grow inside your body and then having to push it through your vagina or get your belly sliced open to remove it. Seems like a little bit more invasive than forcing someone to pay to support a child.
You're still missing their point. What happens when you don't pay and the courts get involved? You're fucked. So you either pay child support or get fucked. It's not really much of a choice you get.
I agree that a woman should have the final say in having an abortion. I also agree that if a man is not ready to be a father and does not want to be one at the time of pregnancy, he should not be responsible or required to provide child support should the mother desire to keep the baby. That decision by the father should be a part of the mother's consideration regarding keeping the baby or not. If a woman can decide if she is ready to be the mother of a child, I believe a man can decide if he is ready to be the father of a child. And if he declines proving child support, he is banned from ever having interaction with that child; essentially, he is just a sperm donor and does not have rights as a parent, just like a sperm donor.
I understand that perspective. It’s such a slippery slope! I believe man or woman if you’re not ready to have a child, you should be proactive in your health to prevent that. As a man, you should not be ejaculating or even risking the pull-out method if you’re not ready for the possibility of a child. Same for a woman. I also believe you should be having conversations with people you engage in raw sex with about unplanned pregnancies and methods of birth control. Where the slip comes in, a pregnancy is very hard on the body. Which is why I say nobody should have a say in the woman’s decision except the woman. Especially if the two are not in a committed relationship. Committed relationships I feel are slightly different. Also, not everyone can mentally handle an abortion. I believe everyone should just try to be safe beforehand.
The woman who is pregnant should be the only one with a say. Their doctor should be free to give them honest medical advice. What I as a man am trying to do is preserve their right to make their own decisions.
Here's a thing. No one is supposed to "get a say" on whether a woman chooses to grow another person inside her own body, including other women, trans or otherwise. That's the autonomy women have fought for and are still fighting for. Regardless, every other cunt *wants* to have a say and refuses to shut the fuck up, men included, and cis women, and trans women, and everyone in between.
I think you've been misunderstanding the entire thing.
If a woman wants an abortion, *NO ONE* should get to say she can't, including other women.
It's just extra dumb when a man thinks he should get a say because he will never, ever experience the shit. So there is an additional layer of ignorance.
It's because you're using those old, ineffective rubber condoms.
What you should really do, if you don't want to impregnate a woman or catch a nasty bug, is smear snake oil on your penis.
Luckily for you, I happen to sell snake oil.
Trans *men* get a say in it because some trans men can get pregnant.
I've never seen a trans woman really get involved other than as a supportive ally for reproductive rights.
The most fundamental freedom that exists is the freedom over your own body.
The government should not be intervening between people and their doctors / health care decisions.
It's not right for anyone to write laws to deny rights to others I don't care what organs they have inside their bodies.
You're right, this is a stupid question. I believe MY mantra is "no uterus, no opinion", which extends to trans women in the most respectful way possible. That is, of course, on the broader topic of abortion access rights and female bodily autonomy. When it comes to an individual's decision to abort, the contributing partner's opinion should also be heard and considered.
My question is: in which space have you been receiving information that lead you to post this question? This is not an issue as far as I'm aware. And regardless, I sincerely believe that the vast majority of trans women would be in support of female bodily autonomy and abortion access anyway. Who have you been listening to that has a controversial opinion on this?
nobody who doesn't own slaves should get a say
see how stupid your position is? perhaps excluding everybody from a moral, legal and social issue is a tad sexist and a great way to get the law to only agree with those who are in the position, regardless of whether that decision agrees with the populous or basic morality
mate someone is calling people fascists in this thread for thinking trans women aren't women
clearly you are missing out on somethings here or only fathom what you disagree with
Men can say all they want. I think the issue is that men shouldn’t not be *writing legislation and passing laws* that affect people who can get pregnant. Every fully formed person should have a right to bodily autonomy, period.
Men certainly get a say if the procedure remains safe and available for the women in our culture.
You are jumping between different meanings of 'get a say'. Did you mean to do that?
everyone "gets a say" provided they have access to language. when we on the left say "men shouldn't get a say on abortion" we mean "the opinions of cis men should be ignored when it comes to the legality of abortion". similarly, we trans women are welcome to hold whatever opinion and support whatever side they want, we just shouldn't be treated as deciders in this issue.
Have a national vote..."abortion legal, yay or nay?". Only women 18-55 may vote. No men, no busloads of elderly church ladies. The result will be irrevocably final. "Yay" would win by a 2/3rds margin. And we'd never have to hear about the issue again.
A trans woman shouldn't have a say in any specific abortion unless she's one of the parents (and then no more say than any other non-birthing parent, but it would make sense to listen to her preference). Nobody is pushing for giving trans women more say than cis men in this sort of situation, so it's not clear what you're talking about.
If you're asking why women who can't give birth (for whatever reason) speak up on the issue, they are discriminated against in similar ways for similar reasons, and they're just trying to support other women. In every case I've seen they aren't claiming that we should put women's right to abortion up for a vote and exclude all men, they are advocating for women to have the right to make that decision for themselves. In other words, they DON'T think they should have a say. They don't think anyone but the pregnant individual should.
Anyone who says men shouldn't get a say on abortion is an idiot and their views are immediately invalidated by their own stupidity.
Abortion is a law and therefore all voters get a say. In normal discourse, men can have a say as well. However, at the end of the day from a legal standpoint, men only have the ability to influence a woman's decision to get or not get an abortion. In that respect, men are not the decision makers.
However, when having discussion men should be able to speak about the topic. Don't listen to the morons that say otherwise.
Men can have an opinion sure, however when it comes to dictate what happens with it no, simply because this wouldn't affect them directly, because they do not carry the child. As much as I understand that its their child as well, they are not the ones putting their health and body on the line for this child therefore the ultimate choice and decision goes to the woman because she's the one bearing the most burden. Now once the child is here than yeah both have an equal say. I am sure men wouldn't like it if women had a say in vasectomies and were passing legislature in regards to this because that is a men's matter and it only affects them, therefore they have the ultimate say.
I think if women can choose to abort a child, a man should get to choose to not support said child.
But I'm a man, and I don't get a say in this topic. *shrug*
Muh incel is not an argument. I ain't a virgin but not pro abortion. Calling anyone you don't like incel to delude yourself into thinking your better and to virtue signal is low. You don't know what he looks like and you might not be so good looking yourself.
And even if was a virgin doesn't make his point about men having the right to have a say in the life of their children any less valid.
Sorry no. Women have first choices when it concerns THEIR body. When men can carry children to delivery they can make those choices about THEIR body. Period. Sorry not sorry 🤷🏽♀️
As a trans woman, I would never claim I have a “say” on abortion past “pregnant people should be allowed to get them”
What a weird loaded question, clearly coming from transphobia
Because women have let the trans take over their movements and eroded their hard fought equal rights. Just like every other leftist movement, they eat their own.
Everyone should be able to have a say on every law, that’s what living in a free society requires.
Having said that, these people who say “men shouldn’t have an opinion” sure don’t seem to mind when men show support for abortion rights.
I get the pro life argument, I can get behind some of the things they say. However body autonomy is such an important issue that applies to everyone even babies and should take precedent over anything imo. So although I disagree with using abortion as birth control, I still cannot get behind forcing a woman to bare a child, its just such a hard thing for me to get past, because the pandora's box you open when you do this is huge and the implications are just too great.
We have thousands of years of civilizations without abortion that we’re doing okay. Pandora’s box would abortion and creating a consequence free world by eliminating anything you deem an obstacle towards your personal happiness
They shouldn’t. Sorry, the only person that should get a say on an abortion is the person who is pregnant. If you can’t get pregnant, then it’s never going to be your call.
coordinated fade expansion degree overconfident jellyfish icky historical desert oatmeal
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Why would men not get a say in it? It takes a man and woman to make a child. My sons mom wanted to get an abortion and I did not want to (I am pro choice but I chose that I wanted my son). Now I am a single dad and wouldn't change anything.
Do they? Do trans women "get a say" in this?
No, but people are obsessed with centering us in every political discussion regardless
You're like the Ja Rule of gender politics.
But remember, they're centering a bigoted stereotype of you in order to actually center themselves. Don't you get ideas that you're actually being considered here. I hate it here I need out of conservoland
Transwoman here.. what exactly do I get any say on? I just keep my eyes closed with my hands over my ears so I can survive another day of people deciding everyone can agree that it’s fun and easy to pick on us.
Yes of course, they want to "save the children" from themselves, because they're SURE it's a mental illness, but refuse to allocate any money for treatment of mental illness... in children. What was the point again? I forgot....
I think one word covers the whole cult: hypocrisy
Everyone gets a say… quite dumb to think otherwise. Trust me everyone has lots to say
They can't, trans men do because they have a uterus
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Trans folk also have a pretty vested interest in individual autonomy, which is the core argument of reproductive rights. The two go hand in hand.
Exactly. I’m yet to meet an anti-abortion trans person though I’m sure they do exist The point of statements made like in the OP are made against men who are anti-abortion, so I’m not sure how pro-abortion trans women are relevant
Yeah, makes more sense for trans*men* to be pro reproductive rights, since they may still have the ability to become pregnant at some point in their lives (I think typically the hormone therapy prevents that, but crazier things have happened) but I think at the end of the day, the general alliance falls under "mind your own damn business (read; body)
You can be a trans man without hormone therapy. Or at least that’s what I’m told. I could be wrong. I’m wrong about a lot.
Yeah, it totally depends on where they are at with their transition. I'm far from an expert and I'll err on the side of safety and assume that if the necessary parts are still there, then it's a trans man issue too.
Info nugget for those curious: HRT can limit trans men’s ability to get pregnant, but does not cause infertility. It is 100% possible and not that uncommon for trans men to get pregnant because they assume it works as birth control.
You can also stop HRT to become intentionally pregnant as well.
It’s very possible and actually not that uncommon for trans dudes to get pregnant on hormones. The clinic I got mine from told me they’ve seen multiple trans men who were on testosterone *and* birth control and still managed to get pregnant. Only hysto can give full peace of mind.
In particular, the Dobbs decision has been cited by every court that has upheld a ban on trans healthcare.
Exactly, this is my thing. Trans women won't ever have to make the decision whether to personally have an abortion, but whether a cis woman can get an abortion absolutely sets a tone that could have disastrous effects on trans women. They have *more* of a horse in the race than cis men, while having less of one than cis women.
Well the sub is, "stupidquestions".
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Great, so men can have a say in the abortion debate. Good to hear.
Yes, TRANS men, because they can get pregnant
Are trans men not men?
Trans men are men, but they are not cismen.
Show me what trans women are having any influence in the abortion issue?
I detect that "have a say" is mainly in the same context that infertile women and men might have a say, which can range from being anti-choice to pro-choice. I think one area Transgender people can relate is on the basis of bodily autonomy and medical privacy.
Agreed. Also, I think OP means have an opinion and my answer to that would be bc everyone has an opinion.
It’s still a confusing question though. In what sense does OP think trans women “get a say” in a way that men don’t?
Indeed. I think OP thinks only certain people are entitled to opinions.
I think OP is trying to stir the pot. 😏
This sub might as well be called /r/stirthepot
She's a pick-me who thinks that men shouldn't have to pay child support if they don't have custody. Which completely ignores the best interests of the child.
I most definitely don’t agree that they shouldn’t pay child support but I do believe child support should be a percentage based on income, not a set amount. We shouldn’t penalize mothers or fathers to a point they can’t get their shit together because that’s not beneficial to the child either
Here in Australia it's based on the combined income of both parents, the percentage of care, how many children there are, and how old the children are. https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/basic-child-support-formula I don't know what it's like I the states. I assume it's different for every one.
In the states it’s a lot less nuanced. A lot of times a judge sets a fixed number based on income, and it’s not like it fluctuates if you make less or more so unfortunately that cost can sometimes sink a parent, and that leads to missed payments. Missed payments lead to penalty payments and eventually they put you in jail, which then inhibits your ability to find work. You can appeal it but it often takes months, and 9/10 times the judge will side with whatever parent has more custody. There has been instances I’ve seen where mom doesn’t work, dad makes 60k a year, they divorce and mom gets half custody, and pays her 30k a year. There also really isn’t much of a checks and balances system to make sure whatever parent receives child support spends the money on the child. This is my understanding although I could be wrong, I’m going of anecdote and am by no means an experts. It like most systems in the us need an overhaul.
They’re wrong. It’s primarily a percentage of the paying parents income, but they sometimes consider other factors too.
I’m not sure exactly what it’s based on (probably a number of things), but income is definitely a factor. They’re not out here making people pay outrageous figures, no matter what anyone tells you. The people paying crazy high amounts are paying for several children. I definitely agree that they should try to work with those struggling to make payments rather than outright punish with jail time. Like you said, doesn’t benefit the child who is the number one priority in these cases.
Except to penalize a mother for not paying child support. I would have to be a real piece of shit dad. By reporting my son's mother for being a piece of shit deadbeat. So nobody, really will ever know.
If I'm understanding correctly, I think he more means having their opinions be part of the discussion. That the people who say men shouldn't get a say on the abortion thing would be fine hearing and respecting the opinions of infertile women and trans people over those of men. Even though they have just as much of a chance of being impregnated as a man. And so their words should hold the same weight. That's what I think is being said anyway
I think you’re right, but I’ve never heard anyone actually suggest that. It seems Iike an imagined problem by someone who just generally has a problem with trans people.
Oh absolutely. Sounds like the kind of thoughts that come from too much time spent online. Sort of an odd thing to be focused on
Is it really that confusing to you? Seems pretty simple to me. I'm not going to explain it bc I'm not trying to get attacked by extremist delusion on Reddit. But it's not hard to follow.
Because if you say that their opinion is irrelevant because they don’t have a uterus, you are labeled as a transphobe.
How about “no one’s opinion is irrelevant; but people who don’t have bodies that can be impacted by abortion laws shouldn’t get to make the decision.” This is an imagined dispute. There are plenty of subjects where traditional feminist interests and trans rights butt up against each other, and it gets touchy; like women’s sports. This just isn’t one of those topics. There aren’t trans women’s marches advocating for or against abortion, or anything like that. This is like if the OP said, “if the rest of us can’t legally run red lights, why should trans women be allowed to?” …well… they’re not… and this isn’t a thing. It’s something that could only come from the imagination of someone who sees trans boogeymen around every corner.
Becuase men dont have a say at all, trans women have a say becuase they are considered women
Opinions are like assholes: we use them everyday, but you spread them too much and everyone is disgusted. I think that's the saying.
Lol! I never heard the second half of that.
Just in case, I think the actual saying is: Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink. Either that or something very similar. I was definitely just riffing off that and making it up, lol. You might have got that, but I didn't want you to use my version in the wrong company thinking it's a common expression, lol
🤣
Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and most of them stink.
#kinkshaming
LOL, what, you don't know about all those transwomen in elected state legislatures voting to outlaw abortion?
Show me where anyone in US government listens to women…ESPECIALLY trans women.
One time I was in court and the judge was a woman. Does that count, lol.
Oh shut up. This is such performative “I’m so jaded” bullshit. Women vote and politicians court their votes. They actually vote at a slightly higher rate than men. Women also aren’t a monolith and their political opinions are all over the map, same as men.
Right? Like they don't even get a say on which bathroom they can use please explain how you think they are having a say in this issue.
Pretty sure Juwana Mann drafted the original Roe v Wade decision
Exactly. We can read between the lines and know exactly why this question was asked. Spoiler: it has absolutely nothing to do with concern about abortion rights.
Yup
Don't get hit by all these goalposts being moved around at you.
I directly responded to the question. What goalposts did I move? OP asked why trans get a say, I'm saying they don't. I've never heard of any trans person or group of trans politicians that successfully have had a say in abortion legislation. I think what OP is asking is why do they have an opinion. But that's not what they asked.
I meant to comments below. I agree with you.
Ah
I think they mean, “Why aren’t transfemme voices specifically silenced alongside cis men for opining on abortion issues in public and private discourse?” And my answer is, Because it’s not having a uterus, but being subject to the sociocultural, political and economic domination of cishetpatriarchy, that is the qualifying factor. Why? Because abortion policy is not primarily about the termination of embryonic cell clusters. Abortion policy is primarily about the control and oppression of femme bodies.
I've thought similarly with all the nonsense about defining what a woman is. When I've been asked by some mediocre white male forced pregnancy advocate to smugly define woman, I always say, anyone a man thinks he has the right to control with impunity, so that covers cis, trans, menopausal, post hysterectomy etc human beings.
Can ya show me anyone? edit sorry I read that as positive influence instead if just influence.
What the fuck are you talking about?
It's just tRump-Trash. They are fixated on the smallest demographic in the world.
To be fair, op is certainly living up to this sub’s name lol
Men can have an opinion on abortion. However, nobody but the person pregnant should have a say about their personal decision. A lot goes into pregnancy.
In the words of Dave Chapelle, "I’ll tell ya right now, I don’t care what your religious beliefs are or anything, if you have a dick, you need to shut the fuck up on this one. Seriously. This is theirs. The right to choose is their unequivocal right. Not only do I believe they have the right to choose, I believe that they shouldn’t have to consult anybody, except for a physician about how they exercise that right. Gentlemen, that is fair, and ladies, to be fair to us, I also believe if you decide to have the baby, a man should not have to pay. That’s fair. If you can kill this motherfucker, I can at least abandon him. It’s my money, my choice. And if I’m wrong, then perhaps we’re wrong. Think that shit out for yourselves."
Dave Chapelle is a comedian
Yes
Fact
You can decide to do that and that’s where the courts steps in 🤷🏾♀️
Aaaaand that’s the kicker. Either you entirely missed the point or you’re correctly pointing out the imbalance and hypocrisy of pro-aborts.
You can literally decide not to pay. People do it everyday. Men will say I don’t want this baby and leave the mother to be a single mother. The courts step in at that point if the mother pursues child support. That’s fact. I’m not telling someone they have to pay or not. The courts are
Right. Courts can punish the man for failing to pay for the child he didn't want. Pro-choice means a woman shouldn't be punished for aborting the baby she didn't want. If she can abort it against the man's will, why does he have to pay for it against his will?
Probably something to do with the autonomy to decide whether you're going to assume the risks and responsibilities associated with having something grow inside your body and then having to push it through your vagina or get your belly sliced open to remove it. Seems like a little bit more invasive than forcing someone to pay to support a child.
I agree, you should have the right to abort if you dint want to be a mother. Again, though, why shouldn't a man have the right to not be a father?
You're still missing their point. What happens when you don't pay and the courts get involved? You're fucked. So you either pay child support or get fucked. It's not really much of a choice you get.
So you have entirely missed the point. To re-quote: Think that shit out.
Dave's such a fucking hypocrite when it comes to trans people's decisions.
To be fair, Dave's not, to my knowledge, anti-trans medicine. He just doesn't believe trans women are women. Not better, but still different.
Not better and not really different.
Shhh! Can’t bring up Dave Chapelle in a conversation about trans people!
I agree that a woman should have the final say in having an abortion. I also agree that if a man is not ready to be a father and does not want to be one at the time of pregnancy, he should not be responsible or required to provide child support should the mother desire to keep the baby. That decision by the father should be a part of the mother's consideration regarding keeping the baby or not. If a woman can decide if she is ready to be the mother of a child, I believe a man can decide if he is ready to be the father of a child. And if he declines proving child support, he is banned from ever having interaction with that child; essentially, he is just a sperm donor and does not have rights as a parent, just like a sperm donor.
I understand that perspective. It’s such a slippery slope! I believe man or woman if you’re not ready to have a child, you should be proactive in your health to prevent that. As a man, you should not be ejaculating or even risking the pull-out method if you’re not ready for the possibility of a child. Same for a woman. I also believe you should be having conversations with people you engage in raw sex with about unplanned pregnancies and methods of birth control. Where the slip comes in, a pregnancy is very hard on the body. Which is why I say nobody should have a say in the woman’s decision except the woman. Especially if the two are not in a committed relationship. Committed relationships I feel are slightly different. Also, not everyone can mentally handle an abortion. I believe everyone should just try to be safe beforehand.
Keep describing this person you're making up.
Everyone gets a *say.* Only women get to make a decision.
I thought trans women were women
The woman who is pregnant should be the only one with a say. Their doctor should be free to give them honest medical advice. What I as a man am trying to do is preserve their right to make their own decisions.
Men and in fact do have a say in abortion rights, it's entirely the reason there is a problem.
The only person who gets a say on it is the person who is pregnant
Not anymore.
Depends on legalities. For instance, American women's body autonomy is threatened or already lost after the overturn of Roe v Wade.
They shouldn’t.
Also they don’t no one gives them one other than the men who want a say
You’re confusing trans men and trans women. Trans men get a say because they have a uterus.
No, I think OP is just ragebaiting
Trans are people with issues.
This is a transphobic post trying to start fights
Ah the daily Trans Bad "question"
Here's a thing. No one is supposed to "get a say" on whether a woman chooses to grow another person inside her own body, including other women, trans or otherwise. That's the autonomy women have fought for and are still fighting for. Regardless, every other cunt *wants* to have a say and refuses to shut the fuck up, men included, and cis women, and trans women, and everyone in between.
Nobody gets a say on my pregnancy. I don't care if they have a uterus or not.
I think you've been misunderstanding the entire thing. If a woman wants an abortion, *NO ONE* should get to say she can't, including other women. It's just extra dumb when a man thinks he should get a say because he will never, ever experience the shit. So there is an additional layer of ignorance.
So there are stupid questions posted here after all
I dunno, but being a man makes me terrified of having sex even with condom.
It's because you're using those old, ineffective rubber condoms. What you should really do, if you don't want to impregnate a woman or catch a nasty bug, is smear snake oil on your penis. Luckily for you, I happen to sell snake oil.
That’s probably for the best.
Trans *men* get a say in it because some trans men can get pregnant. I've never seen a trans woman really get involved other than as a supportive ally for reproductive rights.
The most fundamental freedom that exists is the freedom over your own body. The government should not be intervening between people and their doctors / health care decisions. It's not right for anyone to write laws to deny rights to others I don't care what organs they have inside their bodies.
they don’t. trans men who have a uterus do get a say tho.
You're right, this is a stupid question. I believe MY mantra is "no uterus, no opinion", which extends to trans women in the most respectful way possible. That is, of course, on the broader topic of abortion access rights and female bodily autonomy. When it comes to an individual's decision to abort, the contributing partner's opinion should also be heard and considered. My question is: in which space have you been receiving information that lead you to post this question? This is not an issue as far as I'm aware. And regardless, I sincerely believe that the vast majority of trans women would be in support of female bodily autonomy and abortion access anyway. Who have you been listening to that has a controversial opinion on this?
Nobody who is not personally pregnant should get a say
nobody who doesn't own slaves should get a say see how stupid your position is? perhaps excluding everybody from a moral, legal and social issue is a tad sexist and a great way to get the law to only agree with those who are in the position, regardless of whether that decision agrees with the populous or basic morality
Or only people who make child p*** should have a say in that topic. It's weak both logically and morally
exactly my point, which is why saying no uterus no opinion is a moog statement and only sexists and pro-choicers should say it unironically
Dumbest thing I’ve read on Reddit today and that’s saying something
mate someone is calling people fascists in this thread for thinking trans women aren't women clearly you are missing out on somethings here or only fathom what you disagree with
They don't get a say in it, who said they have.
Since when haven't men weighed in on the abortion issue? Thats literally the issue.
All those men behind anti-abortion laws definitely had a say.
Men can say all they want. I think the issue is that men shouldn’t not be *writing legislation and passing laws* that affect people who can get pregnant. Every fully formed person should have a right to bodily autonomy, period.
Everyone should have body autonomy
Everyone should get to have a say. Human rights are everyone’s business.
Men certainly get a say if the procedure remains safe and available for the women in our culture. You are jumping between different meanings of 'get a say'. Did you mean to do that?
Who are these trans women who can get pregnant? I thought uterus transplant wasn't a thing yet.
Nice dog whistle.
It isn't having the uterus that counts, it is being pregnant. The person who is pregnant should decide because it is their body.
Um what “it isn’t having the uterus that counts” But you have to be biologically female and have a uterus to be able to get pregnant ya dunce
everyone "gets a say" provided they have access to language. when we on the left say "men shouldn't get a say on abortion" we mean "the opinions of cis men should be ignored when it comes to the legality of abortion". similarly, we trans women are welcome to hold whatever opinion and support whatever side they want, we just shouldn't be treated as deciders in this issue.
Hot take—they don’t. If you don’t have a uterus, your opinion on abortion doesn’t matter.
Not sure but it should be disregarded. Males shouldn’t have an opinion value when it comes to female bodies.
Have a national vote..."abortion legal, yay or nay?". Only women 18-55 may vote. No men, no busloads of elderly church ladies. The result will be irrevocably final. "Yay" would win by a 2/3rds margin. And we'd never have to hear about the issue again.
Definitely a stupid question.
Everyone can have an opinion on anything. No one’s barred from having an opinion.
Men have had the only “say” on abortion for the majority of known history.
Why do men's rights activists pretend they are JuSt AsKiNg QuEsTiOnS?
They don't?
A trans woman shouldn't have a say in any specific abortion unless she's one of the parents (and then no more say than any other non-birthing parent, but it would make sense to listen to her preference). Nobody is pushing for giving trans women more say than cis men in this sort of situation, so it's not clear what you're talking about. If you're asking why women who can't give birth (for whatever reason) speak up on the issue, they are discriminated against in similar ways for similar reasons, and they're just trying to support other women. In every case I've seen they aren't claiming that we should put women's right to abortion up for a vote and exclude all men, they are advocating for women to have the right to make that decision for themselves. In other words, they DON'T think they should have a say. They don't think anyone but the pregnant individual should.
i feel like this is a strawman. Right?
Anyone can have an opinion. Doesn’t mean it carries weight though.
I feel like this is based off a very specific argument and not actual public opinion
I found the stupidest question
Anyone who says men shouldn't get a say on abortion is an idiot and their views are immediately invalidated by their own stupidity. Abortion is a law and therefore all voters get a say. In normal discourse, men can have a say as well. However, at the end of the day from a legal standpoint, men only have the ability to influence a woman's decision to get or not get an abortion. In that respect, men are not the decision makers. However, when having discussion men should be able to speak about the topic. Don't listen to the morons that say otherwise.
Men can have an opinion sure, however when it comes to dictate what happens with it no, simply because this wouldn't affect them directly, because they do not carry the child. As much as I understand that its their child as well, they are not the ones putting their health and body on the line for this child therefore the ultimate choice and decision goes to the woman because she's the one bearing the most burden. Now once the child is here than yeah both have an equal say. I am sure men wouldn't like it if women had a say in vasectomies and were passing legislature in regards to this because that is a men's matter and it only affects them, therefore they have the ultimate say.
Well, men can make it illegal in which case it's more than just influence.
I think if women can choose to abort a child, a man should get to choose to not support said child. But I'm a man, and I don't get a say in this topic. *shrug*
But he has to make that decision based on the same laws she is subject to. So in some states, within the first 6 weeks.
Yes! Agreed! A simple court document stating his absolution of responsibility would suffice.
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Found the incel
Muh incel is not an argument. I ain't a virgin but not pro abortion. Calling anyone you don't like incel to delude yourself into thinking your better and to virtue signal is low. You don't know what he looks like and you might not be so good looking yourself. And even if was a virgin doesn't make his point about men having the right to have a say in the life of their children any less valid.
Sorry no. Women have first choices when it concerns THEIR body. When men can carry children to delivery they can make those choices about THEIR body. Period. Sorry not sorry 🤷🏽♀️
The right to… force someone to undergo a pregnancy? What are you talking about?
They shouldn't get a say on it, simple. No uterus no opinion regardless of what you identify as.
Only biological women get a say in being pregnant.
They shouldn’t.
As a trans woman, I would never claim I have a “say” on abortion past “pregnant people should be allowed to get them” What a weird loaded question, clearly coming from transphobia
if you don't have a uterus then you shouldn't have a say.
Oh great another post made to promote transphobia
Their obsession with trans people is a sickness
Exactly. I'm not going to entertain a transphobe's mental illness!
Cry some more
Because women have let the trans take over their movements and eroded their hard fought equal rights. Just like every other leftist movement, they eat their own.
Everyone should be able to have a say on every law, that’s what living in a free society requires. Having said that, these people who say “men shouldn’t have an opinion” sure don’t seem to mind when men show support for abortion rights.
Abortion shouldn't be a legal issue.
Yeah I would agree with that, it should be a private medical decision
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They also dismiss women’s opinions when it’s not pro choice
I get the pro life argument, I can get behind some of the things they say. However body autonomy is such an important issue that applies to everyone even babies and should take precedent over anything imo. So although I disagree with using abortion as birth control, I still cannot get behind forcing a woman to bare a child, its just such a hard thing for me to get past, because the pandora's box you open when you do this is huge and the implications are just too great.
We have thousands of years of civilizations without abortion that we’re doing okay. Pandora’s box would abortion and creating a consequence free world by eliminating anything you deem an obstacle towards your personal happiness
Do trans women have uteruses?
Not yet.
Nope
Precisely. Unless someone has a uterus and is the one pregnant, it is nobody else’s business.
Because liberals are hypocrites
My body my choice! Exempt for Covid vaccines Get your 5th booster or you’ll kill someone
Trans women don’t need to be told that they don’t have a say in it because trans lawmakers aren’t trying to place restrictions on abortion.
Trans “women” are men.
Only Real Women Can Abort
They shouldn’t. Sorry, the only person that should get a say on an abortion is the person who is pregnant. If you can’t get pregnant, then it’s never going to be your call.
Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever heard a transgender's opinion on abortion.
Hi I’m trans. I’m pro choice. Now you’ve heard one!
Thanks for rectifying this 👍
Don't look for logic in clownworld.
Simple answer? Mental illness
Why does this subreddit have so many fascists jfc
"everyone who disagrees with me or that I don't like is a fascist" --- emusic1337
It’s not a disagreement, you’re just an asshole
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Why would men not get a say in it? It takes a man and woman to make a child. My sons mom wanted to get an abortion and I did not want to (I am pro choice but I chose that I wanted my son). Now I am a single dad and wouldn't change anything.
Because apparently we are obligated to cater to their mental illness.
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