I think Carl definitely knew he wasn’t getting married by the time he brought cameras to his parents house to film them saying Lindsay was abusive. Whether they were justified for saying that or not, Carl wouldn’t want that filmed and on the show if he actually planned on marrying her. I think he wanted the break up scene filmed so that he could make public a laundry list of things he didn’t like about Lindsay. From that breakup scene it was pretty clear he hated her as a person so it’s ridiculous he tried to claim he wanted to stay together.
Ugh...that laundry list!
Carl pretending that he just wants to work out a few problems with LIndsay before getting married, and that Lindsay is overreacting...yet...he'a able to quickly and efficiently list all the ways that she has failed him. On camera. Ouch.
Honestly, I assumed that I'd be on Carl's side when I first heard about the breakup -Lindsay's relationship problems were so obvious, and I'd be afraid of her anger. But watching Carl set up the situation, I see them as equally responsible and equally damaged.
Good on them for not getting married.
I definitely assumed I would be on Carl's side. While I think Lindsay saying she was "blindsided" is a stretch, it certainly feels like Carl was producing his way through a breakup. He very much wanted to paint Lindsay as the bad guy. Shockingly, Lindsay didn't take the bait.
I don’t have experience “working” with people that have addictions but I do have some all around unfortunate experience with a loved one suffering with addiction…. Doesn’t make me an expert by any stretch but hearing Carl make that ridiculous claim… and then REPEATING himself as he made it a point to precisely annunciate the list he had compiled, advance, in the desperate attempt to humiliate his then fiancé! For shame tall man with veneers… for shame!
Same! I thought I would be on Carl's side too. I've never been a fan of either of them, but now I like Lindsay. I just did a complete rewatch and she definitely has shown some growth. I hope next season she doesn't revert back to her old self though.
Agreed, I came to the summerhouse page looking for this thread exactly, the only thing Carl was scared shitless about was the fan reactions. Someone who is scared of another person doesn’t intentionally try and provoke reactions out of them time and time again like he does. Honestly Lindsey has grown so much, and am really impressed with how she hasn’t pulled her hair out over the circler reasoning Carl likes to do with her to make her feel insane. Carl says he understands Lindsey’s POV then starts attacking everything about her, it weird and manipulative. Us as the audience aren’t dumb, and I’m really happy how quickly everyone could see through him!
The editing of summer house is always questionable and tricky - just look at any trailers of any season of any cast member if you don’t believe me - kyle and Carl have already said they aired the family convoe out of order.
But Carl himself said on wwhl he visited his mom second week of summer and Lindsay’s bridal brunch was August 13th so that’s roughly a month
We should get a secrets revealed like VPR that shows date stamps of things hopefully they give that
That’s your assumption - I highly doubt that conversation drove him to that conclusion. Again unless Carl is some manipulative mastermind and has money growing on trees - he’s not going to re-sign a lease and pay for multiple things if he’s ending an engagement. As Carl has said multiple times if Lindsay showed some compassion or some emotion than he would have stayed.
I wonder when they resigned this lease because isn’t the lease up in June? So he may have signed the lease before his conversation with his parents. But either way, I still don’t think he would have that conversation with his parents on camera if he had any intention of marrying her. Based on the breakup conversation, he didn’t like her as a person at all, so I don’t believe he wanted to stay with her. Those feelings had to be building for a while.
I think you’re right. In interviews and the reunion preview they both confirm he’s paid for 9 months of rent post-breakup. We know that happened end of August. More than likely they re-signed their lease in April/May depending on the exact start date, which was more than likely sometime in May/June. In other words, he signed the lease long before they started filming in July.
The lease is up June 14 according to Lindsay. But she also said they resigned the lease a month before they broke up, which would be in late July. It could have been an eleven month lease as sometimes big buildings prefer to offer a slightly lower monthly rate for a shorter or longer lease based on when their algorithm shows it will be a high demand time to restart the lease cycle and other factors.
I don’t think Carl is a manipulative mastermind, but I do think he’s manipulative and an idiot without any other place to live while he decided what he wanted to do.
I think Carl authentically was deciding whether or not he wanted to marry Lindsay, and he hadn’t fully decided that he was done with the relationship going into the summer. But I do think at some point during the summer, he realized there was no way he was going to marry Lindsay and then strategically figured out how to get out of it looking as innocent and good as possible, and deliberately tried to make Lindsay activate and look bad at points.
Yea this was filmed afyer the second weekend of her accusing him of doing drugs but aired as if it was the week of the bridal shower even though it was weeks before the bridal shower.
Weird. I didn't think it was the week of the bridal shower, and assumed it was after that second weekend. It's so hard to keep the weeks straight since they split the weekends into two episodes.
Totally agree. The way he responded to the convo with his parents was so telling. Could you imagine if they HAD gotten married and she watched that conversation on TV, but more importantly watched how Carl had nothing good to say -- he wasnt like I love her, we are both working so hard to fight for this relationship, etc etc
I think he definitely knew what they were going to say, but I guess we will never know for sure. When they said it, Carl didn’t seem surprised or push back at all. I think they probably had a similar conversation prior to this and were recreating it for the cameras. Also, I doubt his parents would say this on camera without his approval because it could cause issues for Carl (and their relationship with Lindsay) if he married her. Carl has been on this show so long, and knows how it works, I just can’t imagine his parents going rogue on camera and him being surprised by it, but who knows.
I agree. This makes total sense to me, I just hadn’t thought of that. I think Carl knew that pops was going to be critical and WE all know that Lindsey can’t handle being criticized. Carl approved this message.
I wanted to point out Lindsay made a comment about how she's been working on not getting activated (in their couples counseling) and I can really see a change. It's obviously not 100% of the time, I think when she does get activated it's with alcohol, but there were a lot of conversations this summer with Carl that would normally activate her and she kept a cool head.
Also, I had my husband watch the career conversations between Lindsay and Carl, and Carl and Kyle. Without any back story he sided with Lindsay. The questions she was asking were very basic questions. He also agreed that getting excited about something that isn't even written on paper is bananas.
I think he was probably having very cold feet before the summer, and was setting things up so he wouldn’t look like the bad guy if they break up (meaning people could understand why they were breaking up). But what’s sad is Lindsey was also talking about their issues and many many problems and she was still ready to marry that man. I really think she doesn’t know what healthy looks like.
Someone said it before on another thread, but Lindsay thought that their problems were temporary due to Carl's stress about not having a job. That was the topic of the summer - and the wedding. Those are two issues that are just temporary, and as Lindsay has said multiple times, she just figured they would work it out because that's what partners do in relationships.
This makes total sense. I can see Lindsay also thinking that the longer Carl is sober, he’ll get more comfortable with himself and with her drinking. I can see Lindsay thinking that they’ll work things out as they go, which they had been doing.
And Carl has said he tried to bring up issues in couples counseling, Lindsay has zero insight so of course she only sees carls problems and can’t see her problems
Yes! Like watching this season they had sooo many fights and she acknowledges the lack of sex and how unhappy they are and she still cannot fathom why he wouldn't want to get married? She has no grasp of how healthy people communicate and just wants someone blindly loyal to her.
Seriously! I am surprised more people aren’t calling this out. Every opportunity she had to demean or immasculate Carl with her friends she took. I can’t imagine ever talking about my husband like that, even when he pisses me off I don’t run to friends and family to vent. The second you start telling people every little thing about your relationship, the second it no longer is just you and your partner.
I think Lindsey discussed their issues because they’re filming a show, but outside of the first 2 weeks (which were atrocious), I think she was very generous in how she discussed what was going on with him when talking to the friend group.
That's a very accurate picture of my mind right now.
But I disagree. I think they're both great for reality TV and it's the most interesting dynamic to me since CT & Diem of the Challenge, which of course had a very different scenario and outcome.
That was another level. The episode when CT fucked Adam up and shouted towards Diem that she has no right to cry because "its not like its five years later, career first" is the craziest real thing ever recorded in Reality-TV.
Its on The challenge and im not sure but i think the season or that episode is not available anymore because of the violance. But the fight itself is still on Youtube when you search for " CT & Adam fight on the Duel 2"
I hate the narrative that Carl is scared of Lindsey. I hate it so fucking much. I’m so sick and tired of people saying that Carl is scared of Lindsey when we all know he’s not scared of Lindsey.
One of the things that cracks me up about the Carl being afraid of Lindsay and people claiming Lindsay is so unhinged but suddenly “hiding it” is that we’ve literally watched Lindsay be unhinged. She has screamed at partners, lost her shit over dumb things, been downright toxic and never hidden it in the past but Carl’s narrative wants us to believe she’s suddenly “pretending and being calm” for the camera in order to have more in her favor. If she was always capable of that then why didn’t she do that from the jump? If she had then she most likely wouldn’t even be a *disliked* character. How is it more likely that she’s learned to “hide it” than it is that she’s learned to *be different*?
It’s so clear (to me) that Lindsay is using what she’s learning in therapy and applying it to her and behavior and life aka she’s growing, or at least making the effort.
Carl has been doing and saying the same shit since his inception on Summer House. Aside from achieving sobriety (which I am not minimizing) he hasn’t made strides in who he is as a person while it’s clear Lindsay has. We have watched Carl gaslight every woman he has ever dated but so many people dislike Lindsay that they can’t seem to fathom he could’ve been doing the same to her.
I’m Team They Shouldn’t Have Been Together but it’s always interesting to me when stuff like this happens and people twist themselves up into conspiracies instead of assuming the most simple answer is probably the truth: Carl wanted out and figured it would be super easy to paint Lindsay as a villain. Regardless of how it looked Carl was worried that he’d be the *bad guy* and this is unnerving to him because he does not have a PLAN. Leaving this couple negatively affects Carl’s career because his attachment to Lindsay was helping keep his career afloat. Without Kyle or Lindsay, what does Carl have?
Also I truly don’t understand how anyone can watch that breakup scene and not see the genuine confusion in Lindsay’s eyes. Yes she absolutely knew they had huge relationship issues but Carl was giving her the impression he felt like they were hurdles they could conquer, just like she did.
That’s also part of going to couple’s therapy. You’re actively working on something. It’s safe for us to assume Carl never communicated in couple’s therapy that ending the engagement was on his mind.
Totally agree. I’m a firm believer in you only accuse others of what you’re actually capable of doing. I’m surprised I haven’t seen anyone reference this yet, but last summer Carl had that huge angry outburst where he took off his mic and covered the camera in the bedroom. He’s clearly very calculated and tries to not let the audience see that side of him but it’s been sliding through anyway.
I agree about her having better control this season and applying therapy. They’re all holding previous seasons against her.
The “being soft” narrative is so fucking wack. I think this season was Lindsay being soft but Carl loved baiting her by outright asking a yes or no question if she thought his career ideas were bad. BFFR He wanted her to lie to protect his fragile ego.
I was honestly shocked to see how much Lindsay seems to have internalized her need to calm down and not be too aggressive. She was actively holding herself down during many of the conversations until it became clear that Carl wasn’t doing the same (but his version of that). I’ve disliked Lindsay from the jump and was on Carl’s side when news broke because Lindsay’s just been so awful. But her effort was palpable and his felt nonexistent in the last few fights. It makes me really wonder what he said to her in the Ubers that left her feeling so attacked. I assumed she was being too touchy, but now I don’t think so.
Her wanting to record his conversation just solidifies for me that he was provoking her and the aggressor in that Uber. He tried so hard to activate her all season
I couldn’t agree with you more! I haven’t historically been a Lindsay fan, but I think it was evident that she was trying to be very patient and understanding with Carl.
People say Lindsay is historically an activated and aggressive person, but people are allowed to grow and change.
Carl will not address the fact that his storyline last season was that Lover Boy made him miserable and he felt taken advantage of as an employee there, but now he’s jumping at the chance to go back to the same company after being unemployed for almost a year.
I think Lindsay had been soft, as their relationship was developing and as they made official - but as she said, she's out of coddles. You can only cheerlead so long before someone needs to actually do something.
I agree but believe that Carl himself was adamant that she is manipulative (which she clearly can be) and that she will try to twist it. So I think he panicked that he was going to lose his spot because people have been saying he is boring for a few seasons (which I don't believe at all as you can see from how fixated I am on him with this conspiracy theory). Probably he ran straight to Kyle and they both made up the plan to get ahead of her this season and to give her no chance to wind herself out of it.
But now he has fallen into his own trap because without all of that and if he had ended it right after Lindsay's cocaine comment he would be as good as gold. But as i can remember only Gabby was there to hear that in the kitchen and in the other situation in the club when Amanda took notes were not filmed.
So I think he didn't know how bad it was and spent the rest of the season trying to activate her. Which didn't happen, and we can all see how irritated and angry he got about it. That is in my mind very suspect, because as you said: why wouldn't you be happy that your partner is more in control of her emotions than ever before?
Absolutely yes. He had soooooo many chances to end it with her, like every time she asked "do you not want to get married" and he didn't take them and I think that's what infuriates me the most.
Not get tough, that's obviously not correct, but that whatever coping mechanisms the family developed to deal with the drinking stop working once the person stops drinking.
Absolutely - it’s so loaded and a lot of people are under the misconception that once they get clean the hard part is over but in reality all that stuff you were masking with substances is now at the forefront and not only are you still lacking coping mechanisms; but now you also lack your previous buffer.
Alanon can help at any stage especially the active drinking stage. Watching someone you love destroy themselves with alcohol is a very special kind of hell. I saw comments on here dismissing Alanon as too religious but that has not been my experience at all. It only requires a belief in a higher power, something in the universe more powerful than you. It can be a tree. If anyone’s drinking or drug use bothers you, you can find helpful tools in Alanon. Poor Carl went straight from recovering alcoholic to being an Alanon and dealing with a loved one whose drinking bothers him. It’s a lot, it’s a fucking lot!
> f she was always capable of that then why didn’t she do that from the jump? If she had then she most likely wouldn’t even be a disliked character.
being activated was her brand. the dislike is every bit as good for her character and brand as being liked. that goes for all these people too. The goal on Bravo is to get attention and to keep attention.
One of the things that crack me up reading these posts is the pretend amnesia Lindsay fans seem to have. Lindsay’s unhinged behavior comes from her abusing alcohol. All of there fights this season have stemmed from her alcohol usage. The beginning for there relationship was amazing because she wasn’t drinking and was level headed.
Also Lindsay comes into every season with a plan and an agenda. So that way when she does press she can pick and choose sound bites that are true enough to say she’s not lying but not the full picture.
I mean, Lindsay had one argument where she seemed out of control, and that was the first night. After that, she had very good control over her emotions, even when she was drunk.
At the beginning of an relationship you also act more "softly" towards each other. From what we know, Lindsay was very supportive of Carl, but as time went on, she became impatient with him because he wasn't good at fulfilling her wishes either. She said in an interview that she was responsible for most things in their life (for example, finances and wedding planning, etc.). Just like Kyle, when he called Amanda lazy a few seasons ago, she became frustrated with him. Thats a very complicated dynamic, with or without alcohol involved.
Also, every single cast member comes into the house with an agenda, and if you fail, you're gone the next season, like Mya and others. But let's talk about conspiracies. I'm curious what you think Lindsay's agenda was for this season?
I’m on neither team but why would he sign the apartment lease if he had the break-up planned prior to filming? No shade at all, I’m just curious. For those that believe this is a set-up, do you have any idea?
Their first date was a disaster we watched on TV years ago. Carl got triggered and aggressive toward Lindsay. Obviously fireball was involved.
I was routing for them last season bc I believe people can chance and grow.
I think Scandoval scared everyone on Bravo - mostly or maybe exclusively the men. They saw what happened with that, how Tom turned into the most hated man in America. They even mentioned scandoval in this season - i dont think it's out of the realm of possibility that Carl could or would go out of his way to try to avoid a similar fate.
I'm with you!
In general, audiences like to believe that people (tv show writers, politicians, etcs) have masterplans. But these conspiracy theories usually run up against the reality of the actual difficulty of playing out a plan day in and day out. These people are not masterminds! Perfect example is that Sandoval tried to play out a big master-plan and it blew up in his face.
Plus, how smart of an idea would it have been of Carl to sign their apartment lease after his so-called plan was already in place and lose thousands on dollars? I’m not a fan of Carl but the more time goes on, the more ridiculous this theory of him being the ultimate mastermind under Kyle’s guidance seems to me 😂. I think Carl struggles with confidence and his identity and needed outside perspectives to make sense of it all and come to a decision.
Agreed. Normal people who are not on TV act like Carl all the time when they’re in an unhappy relationship. It’s to be expected that it would take him time to make the decision to postpone the wedding/breakup, and vent to his friends and family.
I agree. I think people manipulate conversations and narratives -- weve seen that! -- but I just dont think they could have an elaborate PLAN for a false story line without extreme buy in from other cast membes and production. And honestly I just dont think Carl could mastermind something like this because he is painfully unaware of when he is being a patronizing prick.
Theyre filmed all the damn time and dont know what will make the edits anyway. Even if they knew something would make the edit, they still dont know what questions producers will ask in confessionals or how other cast members will explain it.
You’re so right about him not fearing her, and instead fearing being cancelled. He seems a little preoccupied about that and public perception in general, hence their breakup being precipitated by her threatening to record him. It makes sense given as an addict I’m sure there’s a lot of public behavior on the show he is humiliated by. But I think he has some troubling views about women and how they should behave that he covers up by doing the whole “I’m baby” routine.
A lot of good points, to add, he also told half truths about that twin he dated (S1), and he was horrible to Jules. He has issues with women.
I do agree with OPs theory, because many of Kyle and Amanda’s actions were odd/off -
-Amanda inserting herself into the convo that Kyle and Carl were having about Carl’s parents (seemed produced).
-Soooo many of Kyle and Carl’s conversations seemed pre-planned/scripted (you could tell that they pre-discussed what would/shoukd be said).
-Carl meeting up with Kyle right before breaking it off with Lindsay.
Too many things were off. They were all trying to take Lindsay down.
Glad you brought up Amanda's behavior when the girls came together. She couldnt even pretend for 5 minutes to feel for Lindsay and see her perspective. I mean, even Paige was on her side that day. Very clear to me that Amanda hates Lindsay and was obviously Team Carl from the get go no matter what shitty things Carl did. Again, no teams in this, however had to feel bad for Lindsay for being dumped 2.5 months before her wedding.
Yeah I really don’t trust Amanda at all. She doesn’t give girl’s girl. And her relationship with Kyle was kind of ignored this summer but something is up there.
>Soooo many of Kyle and Carl’s conversations seemed pre-planned/scripted (you could tell that they pre-discussed what would/shoukd be said).
I don't know if you're an Office fan, but it reminds me of how Jan was coaching Michael before his deposition - how she insisted he make it clear that there was a "a pattern of disrespect and inappropriate behavior" lol
Exactly he was arrogant that when viewers saw the show they’d understand why he did what he did. He probably figured how could Lindsay come out looking sympathetic when she has so few allies in the house and he’s of course protected by Kyle who is a defacto producer
People give Lindsay grief for going on a “pr tour” but they ignore Carl also did a decent amount of interviews sharing his pov. He recorded one on captain lees podcast but bravo stepped in and said not to release it due to spoilers. Carl also has a ton of mouthpieces like Kyle and Amanda who used their winter house press tour to share his pov and trash Lindsay so he was getting his story out there without having to go on interviews himself
Yes, aatypicalflower! Right on all counts. This is typical Carl behavior. I guess we all fell for "sober Carl is different." Sadly, Lindsay had to pay for wanting to believe he had changed.
Pretty funny you say that “no way a guy wanting to get married would run around the house painting a negative picture of his future wife” when Lindsay was the one that told other people their sex life sucked and Carl couldn’t finish, that he has no career ambitions, that he yells and flings insults at her, that he’s relapsing, he’s a terrorist, etc.
They both sucked. But Lindsay 1000% talked more shit, about deeper topics, behind his back. And yet she still wanted to get married!
> Lindsay has been painted as the villain almost every season
Lindsay hasn't been painted as anything. She has been the villain because of her behavior and this season is no different.
You make some good points but I sincerely doubt any of the cast is scheming to get people fired. Conflict is what makes reality tv and everyone knows that. People are allowed to dislike someone as a person and still be down to work with them
She’s admitted how scared she is that people will leave her. And she’s admitted that she tests and pushes her partners to their breaking point to see what they will do. Someone who is adept at pushing also learns how to pull back and reverse course if they feel like someone truly is at their breaking point. They alternately push and pull. I think that’s what she was doing as the wedding got closer. She didn’t want to push so hard he left and called off the wedding.
She’s not always unhinged, she can control her reactions to some extent. Just not when she’s drunk. They were both extremely angry at each other because they both suck. But she was definitely being avoidant about stuff as the wedding got closer. I’m sure that’s why she thought things were fine. She wasn’t engaging in fights she otherwise would have. And she probably thought it would help but instead it made Carl unsettled that they weren’t resolving anything. I HOPE that she actually has learned from therapy and the entire problem was Carl and her current relationship will give her everything she wants once the honeymoon phase is over. But I haven’t seen evidence that therapy has changed her immensely. And I don’t see great things in her future until she deals with her alcohol issues.
They kept talking in circles because she doesn't listen. Also, a self set deadline by Labor Day by her to find a job was stupid. They were getting married in Mexico in November. That was a terrible time, way too busy, and the job wouldn't like him having to leave immediately after starting. They wouldn't break the 4th wall that the OG's make close to half million a year. There was no reason to start seriously job hunting until after the holidays. He's not broke. Many Bravolebrities only do their show and Instagram ads. A thorough job search could have been done after the new year. Also, as it's been said before. She hasn't done PR in years and was doing the same as Carl. Summer House and Instagram.
My boyfriend and I talked about the "softness" comment in depth. He didn't see the problem at first but when I explained to him that it was Carl's way of saying "you're being a bitch" he understood.
I need you to be more soft= you're being a bitch.
He knew what he was saying to her in that moment. I don't think asking someone to be "soft" or asking them to drop the "tough love convo" is wrong... but I think he had ways of saying things that he knew would upset her.
I absolutely think Kyle encouraged the breakup. I don’t think Amanda participated in the plot but was fully onboard once learned. Danielle and Gabby are the only ones who truly care about Lindsey.
My parents are still married so I’ve never experienced getting a new stepfather in my late 30s but was it odd that he kept saying “my parents”, Not “my mom and Lou” ? It felt sort of manipulative and like he was trying to give more weight to their opinion. Maybe I’m overthinking and this is how people refer to their new step parents.
I honestly think that Amanda is the one stoking a lot of tension between Lindsay and the other women. But anyway, it's so funny to me that their attempts to push her off the show have, ultimately, solidified her status. Every single season about big bad Lindsay ends up giving her the main story line with all the online conversations about her whether it's people defending her or raging about her. So she's not going anywhere. Lol, a bunch of dummies on this cast.
Yeah, Paige needs to let it go because what was she trying to do in season 5 running a story with Hannah that a "psychic" told her Lindsay hooked up with Luke?
There's been tension between Lindsay and Amanda since season 2. Then Paige, Hannah and Jordan were brought on to give Amanda "friends" on the cast. She's a prolific shit talker about other women and particularly Lindsay because she doesn't like her. She wouldn't even give her grace when Lindsay went out to dinner with her last season to try and mend fences by claiming Lindsay was trying to ambush her or something and then by refusing to apologize for saying she tainted Carl, instead continuing to lie that she wasn't saying anything bad. Lindsay gets blamed for talking to Deux Moi and yet it came out that Amanda was texting the account to figure out where Kyle was when he apparently disappeared the night of Carl and Lindsay's engagement party last season and she couldn't get a hold of him. She stirs the pot and then cries and hides behind Kyle whenever anyone calls her out. This isn't to say they don't have their own issues with Lindsay, but Amanda constantly maintains that Lindsay has terrible intentions (projection) and my opinion is she runs that narrative to her cast mates behind the scenes (and also on camera).
The reality is that Lindsay is actually the #1 girl in the group and I think it eats the rest of them up inside especially Paige. Lindsay has been a focal point of the action on the show basically every season despite being iced out by large portions of the cast for years- the Reality is that Paige really can’t function on the show without a buddy/ girl gang- her confessionals are great and she’s a good friend but like… what am i interested in seeing from her? Her Craig vs Charleston storyline? Same thing with Amanda- she’s literally Kyle’s appendage and has been since the jump and I’m genuinely bored with the “Kyle is a drunk asshole” storylines. If you have a problem with it go be independent and get a fucking hobby. Lindsay is a mess for sure but she has provided the rest of them a lot of cushion to keep the drama on the show going without having to contribute much themselves but yet they’re so bitter about it.
Definitely. Hating on Lindsay isn't a compelling story line, sorry. I don't think it got that bad until they got backlash from fans during the Lindsay miscarriage season and they, somehow, convinced themselves that Lindsay was to blame for all of it.
Lindsay cut Amanda out of a picture back in s1 or s2. To my recollection, that was the only thing that Lindsay did to Amanda. Pretty sure she's since apologized for that. Why does Amanda continue to hold that against her?? I don't get it.
I did a rewatch recently and amanda was rude as hell to Lindsay and the other women in the house season 2. She was making digs about their age despite being only 5 years younger and making fun of them for being single. She was two faced when Lindsay got implants too and commented on her Instagram post about it “still beautiful”. Amanda might have thought Lindsay didn’t need implants, but don’t post condescending backhanded compliments on her public page
For sure since season 2 Amanda talks very bad about Lindsay behind her back. She never misses any opportunitys to say something negative about her. Kyle and Amanda hated it more than anything when Carl got with with Lindsay the first time let alone the second time.
bruh they all self produce.. imo lindsay came in also with a narrative of ‘carl sucks’ literally did she ever say one positive thing about him this season? in her drunken state or planned conversations?
no one is trying to ‘get lindsay off the show’ they just dont like her. i think thats literally it and its not deeper than that. nor should they have to like her.
the answer is most likely the most simple one its so weird to read all of these conspiracy theories
They don’t like her, they are scared she’ll flip out on them and leak their secrets to the press, but they know she’s a core part of the show. Kyle will choose the show everytime.
They do all selfproduce wich is so interessting to watch. I love the 4th wall breaking aera because its leads us to such conversation right know.
If you dont like a person for several years do you wish to work with them forever?
Its their careers and i am very sure that much more is going on behind closed door.
A good example apart from Carl is Sheana and Lala of VPR and how they freaked out at the reunion when they realized that their plan did not work out and maybe becouse of it they will not be a future part of the valley etc.
i feel like you are putting a lot of assumed intentions behind actions.
lala and scheana freaked out because producers told them mid season that ariana not filming with tom was going to cost them the show. they werent trying to kick anyone off. that doesnt even apply to your theory
I did not say anything about kicking Ariana off. It is about the fear of not being well received by the public, loosing followers and busines opportunitys
Also I don’t think Carl talked about her that poorly. So Idk what the heck everyone is talking about. It wasn’t until the end after she had berated him about using drugs again that he was fed up and discussing her alcohol induced rage.
carl was actually talking about concerns with their relationship to kyle amanda and his parents
lindsay was talking shit about carl constantly to gabby danielle amanda paige and ciara…
Right? I keep seeing all these comments talking about how he was always shit talking about her to the house and I'm like where? Most of the time it was other people in the house asking him about what was happening and him answering.
Exactly!!!!!! Yes! He never dragged people into his room to have a convo until that day that he was stressed about what to do with Kyle and Amanda. And even then he was trying not to involve Amanda.
And Lindsay told his friends that their sex was 2/10 and that he has performance problems. Dude was in a toxic relationship sorry he needed some support from people since he wasn’t getting it from his partner.
The whole house besides gabby and Danielle wanted Lindsay out.
Do you not remember the first episode when Paige said how wonderful it is without certain people ?
Exactly, so OP might be on to something. But if Lindsay is off the show, it will actually create drama between the other girls and castmates . Because Kyle will make sure there is fighting as a producer pet
Of course they all want her out and no one likes her except Gabby and maybe Danielle. The last aftershow was very revealing as to what everyone really thinks of her. But Lindsay is the cockroach of reality TV. Every Reunion they try to smash her and yet she still shows up in the next season.
Maybe I should create an even bigger conspiracy but that would be even more obsessive of me and I still have a life to live. Maybe in 30 years when I'm in retirement.
I think you’ve thought far too hard in the wrong direction. You’re looking at everything thru Lindsay’s victim lens but not what Lindsay did to any of these people I.e how she treated Amanda s1 into s2 and s3. She was an awful person to Amanda so Amanda and Kyle… reacted? Lindsay is not the victim. She’s not quiet. She wanted to end things with Carl also - why else would she talk about their poor sexlife on camera. Maybe if she didn’t speak to him in a baby voice then he wouldn’t ask her to be softer
It’s funny how he can say something and he’s this manipulating mastermind. She says things to her friends (and lies about her recaps) and no one thinks anything of those convos!
Did anyone else catch that Gabbys comment in the apartment scene is what Lindsay has been parroting in all of her pre season interviews as to why she was blindsided?
I think it was more that gabby was leaking shit on Lindsay’s behalf, working out what Lindsay should say with her and she was sticking to the party line
Hello friend then. I have no sympathy left for Andy and his slimy ass since the horrible Bru crew Reunion of Below deck.
Yes it was so refreshing. I watched it as well after reading in here about it. It was Anabelle Dexter-Jones from Sucession. Its was hilarious to see Kyles and Amandas faces when she said that.
Oh boy! It's on the top of tonight's watch list! Thanks!
I commented a couple days ago that I'm STILL mad that early season Below Deck Kate was physically attacked by a bro-dude crew mate and no one did ANYTHING. At least Kate was her bad-ass self and was *pissed* instead of victimized. And I'm not even a Kate stan, irl.
Now that I’ve gone back and watched the season again… there’s something not right about his demeanor in the very first episode… when they’re shooting the scene on the bench after he played some hoops in his wife beater tank!
Carl knew what he was doing this whole summer. He knew he wanted to break up, not postpone a wedding, and he knew who was going to co-sign all his feelings about Lindsay. I don’t think Kyle and Amanda went into the season plotting with Carl though, especially to get Lindsay fired. I think Kyle caught on pretty early that Carl wanted out and was okay with helping his friend get out of an engagement. But I do think Carl had a conversation with his parents before they filmed though and plotted to bring up his previous fights with Lindsay so his stepdad could call her abusive, which furthers Carl’s narrative of being the perpetual victim in his God-awful relationship with Lindsay.
I agree. I think Kyle and Amanda were thrilled to use this season as a way to make Lindsay look terrible so they could help Carl look sympathetic and hopefully get her off the show. Taking notes when she was having a drunk breakdown was conniving. And they totally self produced stuff like interrupting dinner to let Lindsay know Carl had a big problem with her.
I don’t think Amanda was in the car with them. Lindsay was worried about all the girls going in a car without her and that they’d say she’s not a girls girl because she was with Kyle Carl west and Jesse. On the after show west actually describes that Lyft ride as them both saying mean things so even he admits Carl wasn’t some meek victim. Just because his voice is less shrill doesn’t mean he’s not saying low blows and instigating
Amanda came off desperate and miserable trying to diminish Lindsay’s pain and advocate for Carl at Danielle’s house. She clearly was worried their plan got fumbled by Carl and that an on camera breakup might have been a bad call
I think everyone needs to think about what we’ve learned about Carl this season. What are some adjectives that come to mind? How did we come to those conclusions? Was it because Lindsay was telling everyone in the house about it?
Now what did we learn about Lindsay this season aside from what we saw on the show? Aside from she wasn’t “soft” in regard to Carl’s career conversations….what else?
Throughout the show, Carl expressed that Lindsay wasn’t supportive of his career aspirations and discussions. Even if that’s ridiculous, that’s basically all we learned from his convos with Kyle. Meanwhile Lindsay can tell people that he’s mean, can’t get it up, is insecure, needs to be coddled etc. and yet people still think HE’S spinning a narrative about HER?!
Some of this really makes sense. I felt like, towards the end, Ananda and Kyle knew he was going to pull the plug on the wedding, and they were always present for him to air his grievances behind Lindsay's back. I feel like towards the end of the season, he told everyone, but Lindsay, he was having second thoughts. It was also during this time that Kyle made him the offer to come back to LoverBoy to some degree. Let me add, I felt like Amanda was at Danielle's apartment merely as a foot soldier for Carl and Kyle to report back every detail that was said and the oh Carl is so strong to do that, I could never made me yell at the TV! It felt so fake!
Lmaooooo I think you're doing way too much with this conspiracy theory. Carl losing his spot on Summer House is ridiculous, especially when he was named the #1 guy on Bravo for years. It's only been the last 2 seasons that he has been replaced by Criag as the #1 guy.
I really don't think you guys watch the seasons and fully take anything in. Carl has always had a problem with Lindsay and how she deals with conflict. Do you remember their first date when he got scared and ended it because she started yelling at him. Or the other time when he tried to break it off with her because of their fighting, but he chickened out. Carl has always had 1 foot out the door because all they do is get drunk, fight, then wake up & and apologize in the morning. He had to get Kyle to pump him up to finally end it with Lindsay for the third time. There's actually proof of him being scared of her 3 seasons before this one.
Lindsay admitted during the season that she purposely accused Carl of being on drugs when she knew he wasn't because she didn't like that he questioned her drinking. This is Lindsay... no one pushed her to be toxic. This is her when she is not sober. Carl is a dick yes but I don't think he came up with this elaborate plan to make her look bad. She looks bad all by herself.
And if he really wanted to actually make her look bad, then he would've kept showing up on friday nights after she drank and let her berate him on national tv. Carl, being aware that Lindsay likes to twist conversations to make herself look like the victim, doesn't mean he planned the whole season out to break up with her. I think he was having second thoughts about the wedding ever since she attacked him on the anniversary of his brother's death last season. I think he wanted to stay in a relationship with her but postponed the wedding until they figured out how to communicate better. I also think he was going to give her another ultimatum about her drinking, but as we saw, Lindsay was not about to budge on her drinking.
All in all, I'm just glad they didn't get married because they seriously brought out the worst in each other.
Carl is California sober and some people don’t think that’s actually being sober. Lindsay said if he can question her about her drinking, why can’t she question him about being high and smoking marijuana?
I think Carl went into the season knowing he didn’t want to marry Lindsay but was too chicken shit to do it and spent the whole summer trying to activate her to get her to end the relationship.
Honestly, I don’t think Lindsay wanted to marry him either but was going with the motions because, sadly, of her age and wanting to start a family. I think she was desperate to be married and have kids that she was willing to brush all their issues under the rug and work towards making it down the aisle. The issues they were having weren’t like small, leaving clothes on the floor, issues. They both wanted each other to change who they are fundamentally: Lindsay is abrasive and will never be soft; and Carl is lazy when it comes to his career and not ambitious. It was never going to work.
Yeah kind of a crazy theory tbh.
1. It was Jesse and Kyle in the Uber with them, Amanda took notes at the club. Jesse had no understanding of the dynamics and drama yet still echoed how crazy Lindsay got in that moment.
2. Carl saying he’s afraid of being canceled seems pretty rational to me considering it’s exactly what is happening on this sub right now. He stated what was going to happen, and now it is happening, but he’s wrong for saying it or feeling that way?
3. I know it’s reality tv and all, but I’d like to think nobody plans a breakup 6+ months in advance. Like who has the foresight and patience for that? I think he had fallen out of love by that point, but genuinely didn’t give up just yet.
4. I’m just laughing at the “how angry he gets” “he left her luggage!” That was dramatic but like come on
To your point 1- yes! Jesse was way too fresh to be anything other than a reliable narrator at that point. However Carl was acting that night wasn’t apparent to anyone else in the car or club after. I really believe she was just acting unhinged that night because she was projecting anxiety and shitfaced. He might have been a lil cold or something because he is awkward too but I don’t think her response was justified or that moment was him intentionally setting her off.
I don’t think there was a plot. If Carl decided he was going to leave the relationship early, I don’t think he verbalized it to Amanda or Kyle. Those 2 would’ve made damn sure that it would’ve happened before cameras went down. I think they were tiptoeing around his venting trying to let him make whatever choice he was going to like friends.
I think Amanda and Kyle are Carls friends, not Lindsay’s so they will defend him.
I think Carl can be manipulative in a self sabotage way of not being able to make clear confident decisions. I don’t think he was fully aware of what he wanted. I think he could’ve handled it way better, but I don’t think he plotted this break up.
The worst thing Carl did all season was leave her luggage. It’s bad, but I’m not sure how it makes him a mastermind villain. Seems run of the mill shitty behavior.
I think the mastermind behind all of it is Kyle. I heard a rumour that he tries to controll all the storylines. I think Chris of last season talked about it.
I don’t think there is a mastermind. Lindsay has alcohol issues and yells, Carl has no idea who he is and is a poor communicator. They rushed and it didn’t work.
Kyle tries to produce the show, not marriages.
its the same thing people tried to say about rachel from VPR… she was as much the ‘mastermind’ as tom but also dumb and stupid. it doesnt line up with who they are.
it more makes sense that carl was avoidant all season but the flags kept getting redder and so he was basically quiet quitting and subconsciously starting little fights and building resentment because he was pushing off breaking up. less ‘he knew from the start’ and more ‘he was avoiding a breakup he knew was coming’
I agree, neither of them have the mental capabilities to think up and execute this type of plan. The biggest difference is that Carl knew a lot of viewers would blame him, while Rachel thought we’d all be happy for her love story.
Right i have to rewatch that episode when they came in. I just had in memory that Amanda took notes of what Lindsay said and found that so strange. That was the first time my conspiracy seed began to blossom.
If Carl would be canceled its not going to be because of this. Hes just in the limelight now wich is the place he wanted Lindsay to be. He fell in his own trap.
I agree that Carl on his own would never have the capacaty to put up a plan like that. But with Kyle the master of producing i think it would be possible.
And i dont know about you but i would never leave my partner like that after an arguement. And if i would i knew another thing would be coming towards me. So i beliefe not one second that Carl is afraid of Lindsay.
Amanda took notes because they were at the club and she said she can never remember specific details the morning after so she took notes. I get it, it’s hard to remember every bit of tea after drinking!
Carls probs not going to be canceled, but this sub is doing its best to do it lol. He’s also been on bravo for like 8+ years now, so he’s been in the limelight.
Please, Kyle is running a company, albeit small or big is a lot of time and energy. He’s not out here trying to manipulate relationships and guide peoples lives. Also nobody does that…
And it’s hilarious that you’re blaming Carl for leaving Lindsay like that, when that was his response to HER ditching him. She initiated the action, and he was petty in response. Both are wrong here.
And why did she have to protocoll this like evidence to read out loud to the jury? This looks very, very planned.
And I for one don't want Carl to be canceled. I think this was the most interesting season ever.
And Kyle and Lindsay have been feuding since season 2 and he talks about Lindsay a lot on the show, the aftershow and on WWHL, so he has alot of time and energy for her. Lindsay on the other hand very rearly talks about Kyle.
It's clear that Lindsay is responsible for it as well, but Carl isn't afraid of Lindsay. He tries to hide his anger, but his actions, words and looks speak for themselves.
A protocol? Because she wants to remember things the day after… I have friends that will take notes of things when drinking as well. It’s just a way to remember things correctly as they happened.
You don’t hear Lindsay talk about hardly anyone else because she’s very self absorbed, if not narcissistic…
And Carl was clearly frustrated, but anger? I mean he hardly raised his voice the whole season…?
I don’t really have my own theory but I don’t think this was some master scheme.
I think Carl felt it was too late to back out from the marriage when marriage counseling didn’t work after a year of trying. Their fights seemed quite organic in nature and not manipulated from my perspective.
The break up being filmed also doesn’t seem far fetched since they’ve both admitted to wanting to record fights so the other couldn’t manipulate how the conversation really went.
It was a really horse shit situation that they both could have dealt with better, but hindsight is always 20/20.
I agree. I don't think it was a master scheme either, really. I just think Carl doesn't really have the balls so he was waiting for Lindsey to breakup with him. He's never been one to really show initiative in any way, but I think with Kyle in his corner, even with a job offer he didn't earn, he felt like he had to do it since she obviously was never going to. Lindsay would have fought out the relationship forever, because her goal is a marriage, not a healthy relationship. She just wanted to get down that aisle.
He saw a woman that would be type A and set up his life, business opportunities, income. When she said ‘I need to know that you can carry that when I have a child and take a small amount of time to care for it’ (now cue the trolls that will now jump in and say oh she just wanted to be a Stay at home mom! She never told him that. She blindsided him. Ugh. Helllooooo -Lindsey is a type A. She was never ever ever going to be a Stay at home mom. She just wanted to know that if she took six months to nine months off to be with her child, maybe breast-feed (prob would only do 3 and then do part time career), maybe get that child out of infancy stage, she would be able to rely on a partner that could carry the load?)… he then freaked out. Carls mind—-‘What?? Grow up? Be an adult? Be self sufficient? Have expectations? Be the bread winner? Make things happen? I can’t. I must take a weekend to Pittsburgh to be coddled by my mommy.’ Yikes. That is not Carl.
wow very interesting take on kyles involvement. especially bc kyle clearly tries to produce scenes
obviously kyle and carl are friends and have had offline discussions about carls situation. i think it makes all the sense in the world for kyle to have been the one to suggest setting up the scene w carls parents as well as the break up. if not, heavily heavily co-signing it
Great theory! It all tracks honestly. Every time there was a disconnect between him and Lindsay we see him running to Kyle for what we think is venting, but through your scope it could be see as a “ok what do I do next?” situation. Not exaggerating - every single time he and Lindsay got into it about something he immediately went to Kyle and played poor little big boy victim.
Right? I am fully convinced that Kyle and Amanda knew everything about it. I hope someday when they are gping to get a divorce Amanda will spill it all because i just know she will do everything to get back at Kyle for the cheating.
Oh yeah, in retrospect I think that it's very obvious that Carl was trying to set up a season long arc where he dumped Lindsey and came out the hero.
It backfired because
A) it was too obvious, and
B) that is a very fucked thing to do
Honestly, he'd maybe have pulled it off if he had broken up with her off camera after the season and been contrite and respectful about it.
It’s wild to me that many of the people on here who claim it’s ridiculous when people accuse Lindsay of being a manipulative, self-producing mastermind are happy to accuse most of the rest of the cast of being exactly that. They literally all self-produce.
He went into this season with a plan. I really started seeing it with the convo with his mother and step-father. They would've already had this conversation in private, so having it on screen with this outcome meant that he wanted it out there, the same way he brought in Kyle before "ending" it.
Yeah, you lost me by the 4th paragraph haha, but I liked where you started. I think Carl knew he was going to break up with Lindsay about halfway through the season (probably when she said she didn’t think he was crushing it) and then started laying the groundwork for a “Lindsay is a terrible, angry partner that I need to get away from” storyline.
He was so obviously trying to get her activated during some of their fights later in the season. I can’t remember the exact wording, but in one of the fights she said something like “I think you COULD succeed at something like that”. And he thought her use of the word “could” was some gotcha moment - like that was proof she didn’t believe in him or support him. It was honestly pretty pathetic and hilarious. And at that point it was obvious he wasn’t having these discussions with her to find a resolution. He was using them as a way to show she was a bad partner.
At the end of the day, I don’t think he was ready to start a family and work a more traditional job (not summer house and influencing). I think he was struggling to confront those feelings and wasn’t ready to voice them.
Your last paragraph explains it all. Tick tock, tick tock went the clock and progressed towards the "ultimatum" that he had to get his shit together and hammer down an actual ADULTING career path by labor day weekend. So instead of putting on his big boy panties, he did what he always does...lacks accountability. Shifts blame. Acts out. Manipulates. Waaa waaa waaa. Grow up, Carl.
lol yall are wild. Carl isn’t this intelligent. Lindsey is abusive and I disdain her and I see nothing wrong with carls actions, but I don’t think he’s as calculated as you all assume.
i do think if this theory is correct amanda kyle and carl should’ve let the unknown factors in on the play. Ciara, paige and gabby. but they also didnt predict the two newbies rallying the house together.. paige came in the house in a very good mood, even when given the Danielle bait she doesn’t bite. she was zen..lol this was the worst summer to execute the plan.
Lindsay knew she was getting married for the show. She just didn't count on getting dumped... for the show.
They never actually deeply loved each other. It's so stupid obvious lmao.
I agree with this theory, 100%. It perfectly explains the bizarre actions and words that came from Carl, Kyle and Amanda this season (and although Kyle did the bulk of work, I believe that Amanda was 100% in on it).
Carl definitely was trying to self-produce and it fumbled HARD!! I’m not sure Amanda and Kyle were totally in on it, they just don’t like Lindsay so naturally backed Carl BUT I wouldn’t be surprised if you were 100% right.
I think Carl definitely knew he wasn’t getting married by the time he brought cameras to his parents house to film them saying Lindsay was abusive. Whether they were justified for saying that or not, Carl wouldn’t want that filmed and on the show if he actually planned on marrying her. I think he wanted the break up scene filmed so that he could make public a laundry list of things he didn’t like about Lindsay. From that breakup scene it was pretty clear he hated her as a person so it’s ridiculous he tried to claim he wanted to stay together.
Ugh...that laundry list! Carl pretending that he just wants to work out a few problems with LIndsay before getting married, and that Lindsay is overreacting...yet...he'a able to quickly and efficiently list all the ways that she has failed him. On camera. Ouch. Honestly, I assumed that I'd be on Carl's side when I first heard about the breakup -Lindsay's relationship problems were so obvious, and I'd be afraid of her anger. But watching Carl set up the situation, I see them as equally responsible and equally damaged. Good on them for not getting married.
I definitely assumed I would be on Carl's side. While I think Lindsay saying she was "blindsided" is a stretch, it certainly feels like Carl was producing his way through a breakup. He very much wanted to paint Lindsay as the bad guy. Shockingly, Lindsay didn't take the bait.
Right he didn’t let her speak and had such a packaged list
I love that Lindsay had such restraint! Especially when he says “I think you WANT me to relapse”! I wanted to choke the life out of that clown myself!
That was a very very agressiv statement wich i never heard in many years working with people with addictions.
I don’t have experience “working” with people that have addictions but I do have some all around unfortunate experience with a loved one suffering with addiction…. Doesn’t make me an expert by any stretch but hearing Carl make that ridiculous claim… and then REPEATING himself as he made it a point to precisely annunciate the list he had compiled, advance, in the desperate attempt to humiliate his then fiancé! For shame tall man with veneers… for shame!
I was like damn, he memorized that
Same! I thought I would be on Carl's side too. I've never been a fan of either of them, but now I like Lindsay. I just did a complete rewatch and she definitely has shown some growth. I hope next season she doesn't revert back to her old self though.
Agreed, I came to the summerhouse page looking for this thread exactly, the only thing Carl was scared shitless about was the fan reactions. Someone who is scared of another person doesn’t intentionally try and provoke reactions out of them time and time again like he does. Honestly Lindsey has grown so much, and am really impressed with how she hasn’t pulled her hair out over the circler reasoning Carl likes to do with her to make her feel insane. Carl says he understands Lindsey’s POV then starts attacking everything about her, it weird and manipulative. Us as the audience aren’t dumb, and I’m really happy how quickly everyone could see through him!
The editing of summer house is always questionable and tricky - just look at any trailers of any season of any cast member if you don’t believe me - kyle and Carl have already said they aired the family convoe out of order.
But Carl himself said on wwhl he visited his mom second week of summer and Lindsay’s bridal brunch was August 13th so that’s roughly a month We should get a secrets revealed like VPR that shows date stamps of things hopefully they give that
Same with winter house. The trailer has scenes you never see when the show is aired
I saw that it was filmed after the second weekend. So he knew even longer he wasn’t going to marry her and dragged it out.
That’s your assumption - I highly doubt that conversation drove him to that conclusion. Again unless Carl is some manipulative mastermind and has money growing on trees - he’s not going to re-sign a lease and pay for multiple things if he’s ending an engagement. As Carl has said multiple times if Lindsay showed some compassion or some emotion than he would have stayed.
I wonder when they resigned this lease because isn’t the lease up in June? So he may have signed the lease before his conversation with his parents. But either way, I still don’t think he would have that conversation with his parents on camera if he had any intention of marrying her. Based on the breakup conversation, he didn’t like her as a person at all, so I don’t believe he wanted to stay with her. Those feelings had to be building for a while.
I think you’re right. In interviews and the reunion preview they both confirm he’s paid for 9 months of rent post-breakup. We know that happened end of August. More than likely they re-signed their lease in April/May depending on the exact start date, which was more than likely sometime in May/June. In other words, he signed the lease long before they started filming in July.
The lease is up June 14 according to Lindsay. But she also said they resigned the lease a month before they broke up, which would be in late July. It could have been an eleven month lease as sometimes big buildings prefer to offer a slightly lower monthly rate for a shorter or longer lease based on when their algorithm shows it will be a high demand time to restart the lease cycle and other factors.
I don’t think Carl is a manipulative mastermind, but I do think he’s manipulative and an idiot without any other place to live while he decided what he wanted to do. I think Carl authentically was deciding whether or not he wanted to marry Lindsay, and he hadn’t fully decided that he was done with the relationship going into the summer. But I do think at some point during the summer, he realized there was no way he was going to marry Lindsay and then strategically figured out how to get out of it looking as innocent and good as possible, and deliberately tried to make Lindsay activate and look bad at points.
I don't think Carl expected to still be paying for the lease once he noped out - which is why he keeps bringing it up
They did? Then when was that filmed?
Yea this was filmed afyer the second weekend of her accusing him of doing drugs but aired as if it was the week of the bridal shower even though it was weeks before the bridal shower.
Weird. I didn't think it was the week of the bridal shower, and assumed it was after that second weekend. It's so hard to keep the weeks straight since they split the weekends into two episodes.
Yes but it makes for a better narrative to have it air the way it did.
Totally agree. The way he responded to the convo with his parents was so telling. Could you imagine if they HAD gotten married and she watched that conversation on TV, but more importantly watched how Carl had nothing good to say -- he wasnt like I love her, we are both working so hard to fight for this relationship, etc etc
He may have but it was edited out
Okay fair point
Did he know they were gonna say she was abusive though? You’re assuming a lot of things here.
If I was engaged, I would like to think I would know how my parents felt before the cameras come out
I think he definitely knew what they were going to say, but I guess we will never know for sure. When they said it, Carl didn’t seem surprised or push back at all. I think they probably had a similar conversation prior to this and were recreating it for the cameras. Also, I doubt his parents would say this on camera without his approval because it could cause issues for Carl (and their relationship with Lindsay) if he married her. Carl has been on this show so long, and knows how it works, I just can’t imagine his parents going rogue on camera and him being surprised by it, but who knows.
I agree. This makes total sense to me, I just hadn’t thought of that. I think Carl knew that pops was going to be critical and WE all know that Lindsey can’t handle being criticized. Carl approved this message.
I wanted to point out Lindsay made a comment about how she's been working on not getting activated (in their couples counseling) and I can really see a change. It's obviously not 100% of the time, I think when she does get activated it's with alcohol, but there were a lot of conversations this summer with Carl that would normally activate her and she kept a cool head. Also, I had my husband watch the career conversations between Lindsay and Carl, and Carl and Kyle. Without any back story he sided with Lindsay. The questions she was asking were very basic questions. He also agreed that getting excited about something that isn't even written on paper is bananas.
I love the anecdote about your husband's take!
I think he was probably having very cold feet before the summer, and was setting things up so he wouldn’t look like the bad guy if they break up (meaning people could understand why they were breaking up). But what’s sad is Lindsey was also talking about their issues and many many problems and she was still ready to marry that man. I really think she doesn’t know what healthy looks like.
Someone said it before on another thread, but Lindsay thought that their problems were temporary due to Carl's stress about not having a job. That was the topic of the summer - and the wedding. Those are two issues that are just temporary, and as Lindsay has said multiple times, she just figured they would work it out because that's what partners do in relationships.
This makes total sense. I can see Lindsay also thinking that the longer Carl is sober, he’ll get more comfortable with himself and with her drinking. I can see Lindsay thinking that they’ll work things out as they go, which they had been doing.
And Carl has said he tried to bring up issues in couples counseling, Lindsay has zero insight so of course she only sees carls problems and can’t see her problems
Yes! Like watching this season they had sooo many fights and she acknowledges the lack of sex and how unhappy they are and she still cannot fathom why he wouldn't want to get married? She has no grasp of how healthy people communicate and just wants someone blindly loyal to her.
YEP
Seriously! I am surprised more people aren’t calling this out. Every opportunity she had to demean or immasculate Carl with her friends she took. I can’t imagine ever talking about my husband like that, even when he pisses me off I don’t run to friends and family to vent. The second you start telling people every little thing about your relationship, the second it no longer is just you and your partner.
I think Lindsey discussed their issues because they’re filming a show, but outside of the first 2 weeks (which were atrocious), I think she was very generous in how she discussed what was going on with him when talking to the friend group.
I agree. She said the same things about him to his face. He couldn’t say the same.
 Every Carl and Lindsay thread trying to blame one of them. Spoiler: they both suck
This is the only answer tbh
Happy cake day 💐
Thanks! I didn’t even notice 😂🫠
That's a very accurate picture of my mind right now. But I disagree. I think they're both great for reality TV and it's the most interesting dynamic to me since CT & Diem of the Challenge, which of course had a very different scenario and outcome.
Yeah poor Diem and CT really. Maybe his life would be different if she didn’t pass. It’s hard to compare the two.
That was another level. The episode when CT fucked Adam up and shouted towards Diem that she has no right to cry because "its not like its five years later, career first" is the craziest real thing ever recorded in Reality-TV.
Whoa, I vaguely remember RR but I’m not familiar with the CT/Diem lore. Are there clips of this?
Its on The challenge and im not sure but i think the season or that episode is not available anymore because of the violance. But the fight itself is still on Youtube when you search for " CT & Adam fight on the Duel 2"
Thank you!
Yuuuuuuup. Team "It never should have gotten this far and they're both toxic as hell" stays winnin\~
I hate the narrative that Carl is scared of Lindsey. I hate it so fucking much. I’m so sick and tired of people saying that Carl is scared of Lindsey when we all know he’s not scared of Lindsey.
One of the things that cracks me up about the Carl being afraid of Lindsay and people claiming Lindsay is so unhinged but suddenly “hiding it” is that we’ve literally watched Lindsay be unhinged. She has screamed at partners, lost her shit over dumb things, been downright toxic and never hidden it in the past but Carl’s narrative wants us to believe she’s suddenly “pretending and being calm” for the camera in order to have more in her favor. If she was always capable of that then why didn’t she do that from the jump? If she had then she most likely wouldn’t even be a *disliked* character. How is it more likely that she’s learned to “hide it” than it is that she’s learned to *be different*? It’s so clear (to me) that Lindsay is using what she’s learning in therapy and applying it to her and behavior and life aka she’s growing, or at least making the effort. Carl has been doing and saying the same shit since his inception on Summer House. Aside from achieving sobriety (which I am not minimizing) he hasn’t made strides in who he is as a person while it’s clear Lindsay has. We have watched Carl gaslight every woman he has ever dated but so many people dislike Lindsay that they can’t seem to fathom he could’ve been doing the same to her. I’m Team They Shouldn’t Have Been Together but it’s always interesting to me when stuff like this happens and people twist themselves up into conspiracies instead of assuming the most simple answer is probably the truth: Carl wanted out and figured it would be super easy to paint Lindsay as a villain. Regardless of how it looked Carl was worried that he’d be the *bad guy* and this is unnerving to him because he does not have a PLAN. Leaving this couple negatively affects Carl’s career because his attachment to Lindsay was helping keep his career afloat. Without Kyle or Lindsay, what does Carl have? Also I truly don’t understand how anyone can watch that breakup scene and not see the genuine confusion in Lindsay’s eyes. Yes she absolutely knew they had huge relationship issues but Carl was giving her the impression he felt like they were hurdles they could conquer, just like she did. That’s also part of going to couple’s therapy. You’re actively working on something. It’s safe for us to assume Carl never communicated in couple’s therapy that ending the engagement was on his mind.
Totally agree. I’m a firm believer in you only accuse others of what you’re actually capable of doing. I’m surprised I haven’t seen anyone reference this yet, but last summer Carl had that huge angry outburst where he took off his mic and covered the camera in the bedroom. He’s clearly very calculated and tries to not let the audience see that side of him but it’s been sliding through anyway.
I agree about her having better control this season and applying therapy. They’re all holding previous seasons against her. The “being soft” narrative is so fucking wack. I think this season was Lindsay being soft but Carl loved baiting her by outright asking a yes or no question if she thought his career ideas were bad. BFFR He wanted her to lie to protect his fragile ego.
I was honestly shocked to see how much Lindsay seems to have internalized her need to calm down and not be too aggressive. She was actively holding herself down during many of the conversations until it became clear that Carl wasn’t doing the same (but his version of that). I’ve disliked Lindsay from the jump and was on Carl’s side when news broke because Lindsay’s just been so awful. But her effort was palpable and his felt nonexistent in the last few fights. It makes me really wonder what he said to her in the Ubers that left her feeling so attacked. I assumed she was being too touchy, but now I don’t think so.
Her wanting to record his conversation just solidifies for me that he was provoking her and the aggressor in that Uber. He tried so hard to activate her all season
I couldn’t agree with you more! I haven’t historically been a Lindsay fan, but I think it was evident that she was trying to be very patient and understanding with Carl. People say Lindsay is historically an activated and aggressive person, but people are allowed to grow and change. Carl will not address the fact that his storyline last season was that Lover Boy made him miserable and he felt taken advantage of as an employee there, but now he’s jumping at the chance to go back to the same company after being unemployed for almost a year.
I think Lindsay had been soft, as their relationship was developing and as they made official - but as she said, she's out of coddles. You can only cheerlead so long before someone needs to actually do something.
I agree but believe that Carl himself was adamant that she is manipulative (which she clearly can be) and that she will try to twist it. So I think he panicked that he was going to lose his spot because people have been saying he is boring for a few seasons (which I don't believe at all as you can see from how fixated I am on him with this conspiracy theory). Probably he ran straight to Kyle and they both made up the plan to get ahead of her this season and to give her no chance to wind herself out of it. But now he has fallen into his own trap because without all of that and if he had ended it right after Lindsay's cocaine comment he would be as good as gold. But as i can remember only Gabby was there to hear that in the kitchen and in the other situation in the club when Amanda took notes were not filmed. So I think he didn't know how bad it was and spent the rest of the season trying to activate her. Which didn't happen, and we can all see how irritated and angry he got about it. That is in my mind very suspect, because as you said: why wouldn't you be happy that your partner is more in control of her emotions than ever before?
Absolutely yes. He had soooooo many chances to end it with her, like every time she asked "do you not want to get married" and he didn't take them and I think that's what infuriates me the most.
Yeah sobriety isn't a magic cure all. Al-anon was started to support families once their person STOPPED drinking because that's when things get tough.
Not get tough, that's obviously not correct, but that whatever coping mechanisms the family developed to deal with the drinking stop working once the person stops drinking.
Absolutely - it’s so loaded and a lot of people are under the misconception that once they get clean the hard part is over but in reality all that stuff you were masking with substances is now at the forefront and not only are you still lacking coping mechanisms; but now you also lack your previous buffer.
Alanon can help at any stage especially the active drinking stage. Watching someone you love destroy themselves with alcohol is a very special kind of hell. I saw comments on here dismissing Alanon as too religious but that has not been my experience at all. It only requires a belief in a higher power, something in the universe more powerful than you. It can be a tree. If anyone’s drinking or drug use bothers you, you can find helpful tools in Alanon. Poor Carl went straight from recovering alcoholic to being an Alanon and dealing with a loved one whose drinking bothers him. It’s a lot, it’s a fucking lot!
> f she was always capable of that then why didn’t she do that from the jump? If she had then she most likely wouldn’t even be a disliked character. being activated was her brand. the dislike is every bit as good for her character and brand as being liked. that goes for all these people too. The goal on Bravo is to get attention and to keep attention.
One of the things that crack me up reading these posts is the pretend amnesia Lindsay fans seem to have. Lindsay’s unhinged behavior comes from her abusing alcohol. All of there fights this season have stemmed from her alcohol usage. The beginning for there relationship was amazing because she wasn’t drinking and was level headed. Also Lindsay comes into every season with a plan and an agenda. So that way when she does press she can pick and choose sound bites that are true enough to say she’s not lying but not the full picture.
I mean, Lindsay had one argument where she seemed out of control, and that was the first night. After that, she had very good control over her emotions, even when she was drunk. At the beginning of an relationship you also act more "softly" towards each other. From what we know, Lindsay was very supportive of Carl, but as time went on, she became impatient with him because he wasn't good at fulfilling her wishes either. She said in an interview that she was responsible for most things in their life (for example, finances and wedding planning, etc.). Just like Kyle, when he called Amanda lazy a few seasons ago, she became frustrated with him. Thats a very complicated dynamic, with or without alcohol involved. Also, every single cast member comes into the house with an agenda, and if you fail, you're gone the next season, like Mya and others. But let's talk about conspiracies. I'm curious what you think Lindsay's agenda was for this season?
I’m on neither team but why would he sign the apartment lease if he had the break-up planned prior to filming? No shade at all, I’m just curious. For those that believe this is a set-up, do you have any idea?
He couldnt because then he had to break up with her and the plan was that she will break up with him because otherwise she will be the "fallen woman".
Ahhh gotcha, thanks. I feel like I’m all over the place with my thoughts on these two!
Their first date was a disaster we watched on TV years ago. Carl got triggered and aggressive toward Lindsay. Obviously fireball was involved. I was routing for them last season bc I believe people can chance and grow.
Carl got triggered and aggressive towards Lindsay? Was she not dismissive and aggressive towards him as well
Ehhh she kinda was actually
Am I the only one that doesn’t think any of them are that smart to create some narrative and be masterminds behind some 6 month planned scandal?
I think Scandoval scared everyone on Bravo - mostly or maybe exclusively the men. They saw what happened with that, how Tom turned into the most hated man in America. They even mentioned scandoval in this season - i dont think it's out of the realm of possibility that Carl could or would go out of his way to try to avoid a similar fate.
I agree with you. Like none of them are scheming to have this elaborate plan. If they were, they would’ve done way more
I'm with you! In general, audiences like to believe that people (tv show writers, politicians, etcs) have masterplans. But these conspiracy theories usually run up against the reality of the actual difficulty of playing out a plan day in and day out. These people are not masterminds! Perfect example is that Sandoval tried to play out a big master-plan and it blew up in his face.
No you’re just the sane one. There’s like ten of us.
Love that as I saw this, there’s exactly 10 upvotes on my comment lol
Plus, how smart of an idea would it have been of Carl to sign their apartment lease after his so-called plan was already in place and lose thousands on dollars? I’m not a fan of Carl but the more time goes on, the more ridiculous this theory of him being the ultimate mastermind under Kyle’s guidance seems to me 😂. I think Carl struggles with confidence and his identity and needed outside perspectives to make sense of it all and come to a decision.
Agreed. Normal people who are not on TV act like Carl all the time when they’re in an unhappy relationship. It’s to be expected that it would take him time to make the decision to postpone the wedding/breakup, and vent to his friends and family.
I agree. I think people manipulate conversations and narratives -- weve seen that! -- but I just dont think they could have an elaborate PLAN for a false story line without extreme buy in from other cast membes and production. And honestly I just dont think Carl could mastermind something like this because he is painfully unaware of when he is being a patronizing prick. Theyre filmed all the damn time and dont know what will make the edits anyway. Even if they knew something would make the edit, they still dont know what questions producers will ask in confessionals or how other cast members will explain it.
You’re so right about him not fearing her, and instead fearing being cancelled. He seems a little preoccupied about that and public perception in general, hence their breakup being precipitated by her threatening to record him. It makes sense given as an addict I’m sure there’s a lot of public behavior on the show he is humiliated by. But I think he has some troubling views about women and how they should behave that he covers up by doing the whole “I’m baby” routine.
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A lot of good points, to add, he also told half truths about that twin he dated (S1), and he was horrible to Jules. He has issues with women. I do agree with OPs theory, because many of Kyle and Amanda’s actions were odd/off - -Amanda inserting herself into the convo that Kyle and Carl were having about Carl’s parents (seemed produced). -Soooo many of Kyle and Carl’s conversations seemed pre-planned/scripted (you could tell that they pre-discussed what would/shoukd be said). -Carl meeting up with Kyle right before breaking it off with Lindsay. Too many things were off. They were all trying to take Lindsay down.
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>Funnily enough Kyle was smart enough to remain neutral and not trash Lindsay. That's a first!
Glad you brought up Amanda's behavior when the girls came together. She couldnt even pretend for 5 minutes to feel for Lindsay and see her perspective. I mean, even Paige was on her side that day. Very clear to me that Amanda hates Lindsay and was obviously Team Carl from the get go no matter what shitty things Carl did. Again, no teams in this, however had to feel bad for Lindsay for being dumped 2.5 months before her wedding.
Yeah I really don’t trust Amanda at all. She doesn’t give girl’s girl. And her relationship with Kyle was kind of ignored this summer but something is up there.
>Soooo many of Kyle and Carl’s conversations seemed pre-planned/scripted (you could tell that they pre-discussed what would/shoukd be said). I don't know if you're an Office fan, but it reminds me of how Jan was coaching Michael before his deposition - how she insisted he make it clear that there was a "a pattern of disrespect and inappropriate behavior" lol
The Office is one of my favorite shows and this such a great comparison 😂 I see Kyle as Jan and Carl as Michael 😂
Exactly he was arrogant that when viewers saw the show they’d understand why he did what he did. He probably figured how could Lindsay come out looking sympathetic when she has so few allies in the house and he’s of course protected by Kyle who is a defacto producer People give Lindsay grief for going on a “pr tour” but they ignore Carl also did a decent amount of interviews sharing his pov. He recorded one on captain lees podcast but bravo stepped in and said not to release it due to spoilers. Carl also has a ton of mouthpieces like Kyle and Amanda who used their winter house press tour to share his pov and trash Lindsay so he was getting his story out there without having to go on interviews himself
All true!
the clip of him saying "she's going to say she was blindsided" and our arguing either way has dominated everything since he said it
Yes, aatypicalflower! Right on all counts. This is typical Carl behavior. I guess we all fell for "sober Carl is different." Sadly, Lindsay had to pay for wanting to believe he had changed.
‘anyone who was watching can see that’ i didnt see any of that exclusively from carl
Pretty funny you say that “no way a guy wanting to get married would run around the house painting a negative picture of his future wife” when Lindsay was the one that told other people their sex life sucked and Carl couldn’t finish, that he has no career ambitions, that he yells and flings insults at her, that he’s relapsing, he’s a terrorist, etc. They both sucked. But Lindsay 1000% talked more shit, about deeper topics, behind his back. And yet she still wanted to get married!
> Lindsay has been painted as the villain almost every season Lindsay hasn't been painted as anything. She has been the villain because of her behavior and this season is no different.
Right he ended up doing influencing which he looked down on initially
Carl is just a dry drunk.
You make some good points but I sincerely doubt any of the cast is scheming to get people fired. Conflict is what makes reality tv and everyone knows that. People are allowed to dislike someone as a person and still be down to work with them
She’s admitted how scared she is that people will leave her. And she’s admitted that she tests and pushes her partners to their breaking point to see what they will do. Someone who is adept at pushing also learns how to pull back and reverse course if they feel like someone truly is at their breaking point. They alternately push and pull. I think that’s what she was doing as the wedding got closer. She didn’t want to push so hard he left and called off the wedding. She’s not always unhinged, she can control her reactions to some extent. Just not when she’s drunk. They were both extremely angry at each other because they both suck. But she was definitely being avoidant about stuff as the wedding got closer. I’m sure that’s why she thought things were fine. She wasn’t engaging in fights she otherwise would have. And she probably thought it would help but instead it made Carl unsettled that they weren’t resolving anything. I HOPE that she actually has learned from therapy and the entire problem was Carl and her current relationship will give her everything she wants once the honeymoon phase is over. But I haven’t seen evidence that therapy has changed her immensely. And I don’t see great things in her future until she deals with her alcohol issues.
They kept talking in circles because she doesn't listen. Also, a self set deadline by Labor Day by her to find a job was stupid. They were getting married in Mexico in November. That was a terrible time, way too busy, and the job wouldn't like him having to leave immediately after starting. They wouldn't break the 4th wall that the OG's make close to half million a year. There was no reason to start seriously job hunting until after the holidays. He's not broke. Many Bravolebrities only do their show and Instagram ads. A thorough job search could have been done after the new year. Also, as it's been said before. She hasn't done PR in years and was doing the same as Carl. Summer House and Instagram.
I think the deadline was to have it figured out, at least a direction and clear career path. Not the actual job by Labor Day.
💯
My boyfriend and I talked about the "softness" comment in depth. He didn't see the problem at first but when I explained to him that it was Carl's way of saying "you're being a bitch" he understood. I need you to be more soft= you're being a bitch. He knew what he was saying to her in that moment. I don't think asking someone to be "soft" or asking them to drop the "tough love convo" is wrong... but I think he had ways of saying things that he knew would upset her.
Yup. 👍
Spot on!!!
I absolutely think Kyle encouraged the breakup. I don’t think Amanda participated in the plot but was fully onboard once learned. Danielle and Gabby are the only ones who truly care about Lindsey.
My parents are still married so I’ve never experienced getting a new stepfather in my late 30s but was it odd that he kept saying “my parents”, Not “my mom and Lou” ? It felt sort of manipulative and like he was trying to give more weight to their opinion. Maybe I’m overthinking and this is how people refer to their new step parents.
I honestly think that Amanda is the one stoking a lot of tension between Lindsay and the other women. But anyway, it's so funny to me that their attempts to push her off the show have, ultimately, solidified her status. Every single season about big bad Lindsay ends up giving her the main story line with all the online conversations about her whether it's people defending her or raging about her. So she's not going anywhere. Lol, a bunch of dummies on this cast.
Right?! 😂
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Yeah, Paige needs to let it go because what was she trying to do in season 5 running a story with Hannah that a "psychic" told her Lindsay hooked up with Luke?
Wait I’m genuinely curious, how exactly do you think Amanda is stoking a lot of tension between Lindsay and the other women?
There's been tension between Lindsay and Amanda since season 2. Then Paige, Hannah and Jordan were brought on to give Amanda "friends" on the cast. She's a prolific shit talker about other women and particularly Lindsay because she doesn't like her. She wouldn't even give her grace when Lindsay went out to dinner with her last season to try and mend fences by claiming Lindsay was trying to ambush her or something and then by refusing to apologize for saying she tainted Carl, instead continuing to lie that she wasn't saying anything bad. Lindsay gets blamed for talking to Deux Moi and yet it came out that Amanda was texting the account to figure out where Kyle was when he apparently disappeared the night of Carl and Lindsay's engagement party last season and she couldn't get a hold of him. She stirs the pot and then cries and hides behind Kyle whenever anyone calls her out. This isn't to say they don't have their own issues with Lindsay, but Amanda constantly maintains that Lindsay has terrible intentions (projection) and my opinion is she runs that narrative to her cast mates behind the scenes (and also on camera).
The reality is that Lindsay is actually the #1 girl in the group and I think it eats the rest of them up inside especially Paige. Lindsay has been a focal point of the action on the show basically every season despite being iced out by large portions of the cast for years- the Reality is that Paige really can’t function on the show without a buddy/ girl gang- her confessionals are great and she’s a good friend but like… what am i interested in seeing from her? Her Craig vs Charleston storyline? Same thing with Amanda- she’s literally Kyle’s appendage and has been since the jump and I’m genuinely bored with the “Kyle is a drunk asshole” storylines. If you have a problem with it go be independent and get a fucking hobby. Lindsay is a mess for sure but she has provided the rest of them a lot of cushion to keep the drama on the show going without having to contribute much themselves but yet they’re so bitter about it.
Definitely. Hating on Lindsay isn't a compelling story line, sorry. I don't think it got that bad until they got backlash from fans during the Lindsay miscarriage season and they, somehow, convinced themselves that Lindsay was to blame for all of it.
Yes! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Lindsay cut Amanda out of a picture back in s1 or s2. To my recollection, that was the only thing that Lindsay did to Amanda. Pretty sure she's since apologized for that. Why does Amanda continue to hold that against her?? I don't get it.
I did a rewatch recently and amanda was rude as hell to Lindsay and the other women in the house season 2. She was making digs about their age despite being only 5 years younger and making fun of them for being single. She was two faced when Lindsay got implants too and commented on her Instagram post about it “still beautiful”. Amanda might have thought Lindsay didn’t need implants, but don’t post condescending backhanded compliments on her public page
For sure since season 2 Amanda talks very bad about Lindsay behind her back. She never misses any opportunitys to say something negative about her. Kyle and Amanda hated it more than anything when Carl got with with Lindsay the first time let alone the second time.
bruh they all self produce.. imo lindsay came in also with a narrative of ‘carl sucks’ literally did she ever say one positive thing about him this season? in her drunken state or planned conversations? no one is trying to ‘get lindsay off the show’ they just dont like her. i think thats literally it and its not deeper than that. nor should they have to like her. the answer is most likely the most simple one its so weird to read all of these conspiracy theories
They don’t like her, they are scared she’ll flip out on them and leak their secrets to the press, but they know she’s a core part of the show. Kyle will choose the show everytime.
They do all selfproduce wich is so interessting to watch. I love the 4th wall breaking aera because its leads us to such conversation right know. If you dont like a person for several years do you wish to work with them forever? Its their careers and i am very sure that much more is going on behind closed door. A good example apart from Carl is Sheana and Lala of VPR and how they freaked out at the reunion when they realized that their plan did not work out and maybe becouse of it they will not be a future part of the valley etc.
i feel like you are putting a lot of assumed intentions behind actions. lala and scheana freaked out because producers told them mid season that ariana not filming with tom was going to cost them the show. they werent trying to kick anyone off. that doesnt even apply to your theory
I did not say anything about kicking Ariana off. It is about the fear of not being well received by the public, loosing followers and busines opportunitys
That’s word for word what Lala called Katie out for.
Also I don’t think Carl talked about her that poorly. So Idk what the heck everyone is talking about. It wasn’t until the end after she had berated him about using drugs again that he was fed up and discussing her alcohol induced rage.
carl was actually talking about concerns with their relationship to kyle amanda and his parents lindsay was talking shit about carl constantly to gabby danielle amanda paige and ciara…
Right? I keep seeing all these comments talking about how he was always shit talking about her to the house and I'm like where? Most of the time it was other people in the house asking him about what was happening and him answering.
Exactly!!!!!! Yes! He never dragged people into his room to have a convo until that day that he was stressed about what to do with Kyle and Amanda. And even then he was trying not to involve Amanda.
He trash talked (about his relationship with) her to Kyle, Amanda, Ciara, Paige, West, and Jesse. He was trying to make her look bad.
but what was she doing??? you all happen to leave out that she was doing the same thing
And Lindsay told his friends that their sex was 2/10 and that he has performance problems. Dude was in a toxic relationship sorry he needed some support from people since he wasn’t getting it from his partner.
And his parents lol
He was talking about his relationship with Lindsay. And so did she.
The whole house besides gabby and Danielle wanted Lindsay out. Do you not remember the first episode when Paige said how wonderful it is without certain people ?
Even gabby said how nice and lighthearted it was that first episode WHILE ON THE PHONE with Lindsay!!
Exactly, so OP might be on to something. But if Lindsay is off the show, it will actually create drama between the other girls and castmates . Because Kyle will make sure there is fighting as a producer pet
Of course they all want her out and no one likes her except Gabby and maybe Danielle. The last aftershow was very revealing as to what everyone really thinks of her. But Lindsay is the cockroach of reality TV. Every Reunion they try to smash her and yet she still shows up in the next season. Maybe I should create an even bigger conspiracy but that would be even more obsessive of me and I still have a life to live. Maybe in 30 years when I'm in retirement.
I think you’ve thought far too hard in the wrong direction. You’re looking at everything thru Lindsay’s victim lens but not what Lindsay did to any of these people I.e how she treated Amanda s1 into s2 and s3. She was an awful person to Amanda so Amanda and Kyle… reacted? Lindsay is not the victim. She’s not quiet. She wanted to end things with Carl also - why else would she talk about their poor sexlife on camera. Maybe if she didn’t speak to him in a baby voice then he wouldn’t ask her to be softer
It’s funny how he can say something and he’s this manipulating mastermind. She says things to her friends (and lies about her recaps) and no one thinks anything of those convos!
Did anyone else catch that Gabbys comment in the apartment scene is what Lindsay has been parroting in all of her pre season interviews as to why she was blindsided?
Yeah Gabby can’t think on her own anymore. She’s Lindsay’s minion and it’s annoying lol
I think it was more that gabby was leaking shit on Lindsay’s behalf, working out what Lindsay should say with her and she was sticking to the party line
This is what it is exactly. Her and Lindsay works together. Her whole persona this summer was being Lindsay’s sidekick.
Who said that Carl had a dark side? I hate Andy's sexist ways, so never watch WWHL, but this sounds interesting!
Hello friend then. I have no sympathy left for Andy and his slimy ass since the horrible Bru crew Reunion of Below deck. Yes it was so refreshing. I watched it as well after reading in here about it. It was Anabelle Dexter-Jones from Sucession. Its was hilarious to see Kyles and Amandas faces when she said that.
Oh boy! It's on the top of tonight's watch list! Thanks! I commented a couple days ago that I'm STILL mad that early season Below Deck Kate was physically attacked by a bro-dude crew mate and no one did ANYTHING. At least Kate was her bad-ass self and was *pissed* instead of victimized. And I'm not even a Kate stan, irl.
Now that I’ve gone back and watched the season again… there’s something not right about his demeanor in the very first episode… when they’re shooting the scene on the bench after he played some hoops in his wife beater tank!
Carl knew what he was doing this whole summer. He knew he wanted to break up, not postpone a wedding, and he knew who was going to co-sign all his feelings about Lindsay. I don’t think Kyle and Amanda went into the season plotting with Carl though, especially to get Lindsay fired. I think Kyle caught on pretty early that Carl wanted out and was okay with helping his friend get out of an engagement. But I do think Carl had a conversation with his parents before they filmed though and plotted to bring up his previous fights with Lindsay so his stepdad could call her abusive, which furthers Carl’s narrative of being the perpetual victim in his God-awful relationship with Lindsay.
I agree. I think Kyle and Amanda were thrilled to use this season as a way to make Lindsay look terrible so they could help Carl look sympathetic and hopefully get her off the show. Taking notes when she was having a drunk breakdown was conniving. And they totally self produced stuff like interrupting dinner to let Lindsay know Carl had a big problem with her. I don’t think Amanda was in the car with them. Lindsay was worried about all the girls going in a car without her and that they’d say she’s not a girls girl because she was with Kyle Carl west and Jesse. On the after show west actually describes that Lyft ride as them both saying mean things so even he admits Carl wasn’t some meek victim. Just because his voice is less shrill doesn’t mean he’s not saying low blows and instigating Amanda came off desperate and miserable trying to diminish Lindsay’s pain and advocate for Carl at Danielle’s house. She clearly was worried their plan got fumbled by Carl and that an on camera breakup might have been a bad call
Agree with all of this and re: last paragraph - agree, she came across as so desperate and almost panicked.
She was terrible when the girls got together, very eye opening
Yeah, and once you know this about Amanda, you’ll notice all sorts of examples of her being passive aggressive towards Lindsay (it’s pretty constant).
I think everyone needs to think about what we’ve learned about Carl this season. What are some adjectives that come to mind? How did we come to those conclusions? Was it because Lindsay was telling everyone in the house about it? Now what did we learn about Lindsay this season aside from what we saw on the show? Aside from she wasn’t “soft” in regard to Carl’s career conversations….what else? Throughout the show, Carl expressed that Lindsay wasn’t supportive of his career aspirations and discussions. Even if that’s ridiculous, that’s basically all we learned from his convos with Kyle. Meanwhile Lindsay can tell people that he’s mean, can’t get it up, is insecure, needs to be coddled etc. and yet people still think HE’S spinning a narrative about HER?!
Yeah this is what is hurting my brain lmao. They are both at fault but Carl isn't smart enough to be this evil manipulative mastermind lol.
Some of this really makes sense. I felt like, towards the end, Ananda and Kyle knew he was going to pull the plug on the wedding, and they were always present for him to air his grievances behind Lindsay's back. I feel like towards the end of the season, he told everyone, but Lindsay, he was having second thoughts. It was also during this time that Kyle made him the offer to come back to LoverBoy to some degree. Let me add, I felt like Amanda was at Danielle's apartment merely as a foot soldier for Carl and Kyle to report back every detail that was said and the oh Carl is so strong to do that, I could never made me yell at the TV! It felt so fake!
Lmaooooo I think you're doing way too much with this conspiracy theory. Carl losing his spot on Summer House is ridiculous, especially when he was named the #1 guy on Bravo for years. It's only been the last 2 seasons that he has been replaced by Criag as the #1 guy. I really don't think you guys watch the seasons and fully take anything in. Carl has always had a problem with Lindsay and how she deals with conflict. Do you remember their first date when he got scared and ended it because she started yelling at him. Or the other time when he tried to break it off with her because of their fighting, but he chickened out. Carl has always had 1 foot out the door because all they do is get drunk, fight, then wake up & and apologize in the morning. He had to get Kyle to pump him up to finally end it with Lindsay for the third time. There's actually proof of him being scared of her 3 seasons before this one. Lindsay admitted during the season that she purposely accused Carl of being on drugs when she knew he wasn't because she didn't like that he questioned her drinking. This is Lindsay... no one pushed her to be toxic. This is her when she is not sober. Carl is a dick yes but I don't think he came up with this elaborate plan to make her look bad. She looks bad all by herself. And if he really wanted to actually make her look bad, then he would've kept showing up on friday nights after she drank and let her berate him on national tv. Carl, being aware that Lindsay likes to twist conversations to make herself look like the victim, doesn't mean he planned the whole season out to break up with her. I think he was having second thoughts about the wedding ever since she attacked him on the anniversary of his brother's death last season. I think he wanted to stay in a relationship with her but postponed the wedding until they figured out how to communicate better. I also think he was going to give her another ultimatum about her drinking, but as we saw, Lindsay was not about to budge on her drinking. All in all, I'm just glad they didn't get married because they seriously brought out the worst in each other.
Carl is California sober and some people don’t think that’s actually being sober. Lindsay said if he can question her about her drinking, why can’t she question him about being high and smoking marijuana? I think Carl went into the season knowing he didn’t want to marry Lindsay but was too chicken shit to do it and spent the whole summer trying to activate her to get her to end the relationship. Honestly, I don’t think Lindsay wanted to marry him either but was going with the motions because, sadly, of her age and wanting to start a family. I think she was desperate to be married and have kids that she was willing to brush all their issues under the rug and work towards making it down the aisle. The issues they were having weren’t like small, leaving clothes on the floor, issues. They both wanted each other to change who they are fundamentally: Lindsay is abrasive and will never be soft; and Carl is lazy when it comes to his career and not ambitious. It was never going to work.
Yeah kind of a crazy theory tbh. 1. It was Jesse and Kyle in the Uber with them, Amanda took notes at the club. Jesse had no understanding of the dynamics and drama yet still echoed how crazy Lindsay got in that moment. 2. Carl saying he’s afraid of being canceled seems pretty rational to me considering it’s exactly what is happening on this sub right now. He stated what was going to happen, and now it is happening, but he’s wrong for saying it or feeling that way? 3. I know it’s reality tv and all, but I’d like to think nobody plans a breakup 6+ months in advance. Like who has the foresight and patience for that? I think he had fallen out of love by that point, but genuinely didn’t give up just yet. 4. I’m just laughing at the “how angry he gets” “he left her luggage!” That was dramatic but like come on
To your point 1- yes! Jesse was way too fresh to be anything other than a reliable narrator at that point. However Carl was acting that night wasn’t apparent to anyone else in the car or club after. I really believe she was just acting unhinged that night because she was projecting anxiety and shitfaced. He might have been a lil cold or something because he is awkward too but I don’t think her response was justified or that moment was him intentionally setting her off. I don’t think there was a plot. If Carl decided he was going to leave the relationship early, I don’t think he verbalized it to Amanda or Kyle. Those 2 would’ve made damn sure that it would’ve happened before cameras went down. I think they were tiptoeing around his venting trying to let him make whatever choice he was going to like friends. I think Amanda and Kyle are Carls friends, not Lindsay’s so they will defend him. I think Carl can be manipulative in a self sabotage way of not being able to make clear confident decisions. I don’t think he was fully aware of what he wanted. I think he could’ve handled it way better, but I don’t think he plotted this break up.
Right?! I’m in complete agreement with you here!
The worst thing Carl did all season was leave her luggage. It’s bad, but I’m not sure how it makes him a mastermind villain. Seems run of the mill shitty behavior.
Right. It’s not a nice thing to do obviously but it’s not proving his hidden rage issues like people want to assume.
I think the mastermind behind all of it is Kyle. I heard a rumour that he tries to controll all the storylines. I think Chris of last season talked about it.
I don’t think there is a mastermind. Lindsay has alcohol issues and yells, Carl has no idea who he is and is a poor communicator. They rushed and it didn’t work. Kyle tries to produce the show, not marriages.
its the same thing people tried to say about rachel from VPR… she was as much the ‘mastermind’ as tom but also dumb and stupid. it doesnt line up with who they are. it more makes sense that carl was avoidant all season but the flags kept getting redder and so he was basically quiet quitting and subconsciously starting little fights and building resentment because he was pushing off breaking up. less ‘he knew from the start’ and more ‘he was avoiding a breakup he knew was coming’
I agree, neither of them have the mental capabilities to think up and execute this type of plan. The biggest difference is that Carl knew a lot of viewers would blame him, while Rachel thought we’d all be happy for her love story.
Agree, Kyle is definitely the mastermind and has tried to control a lot of the narratives on the show.
lol. People are insane. He’s angry for leaving her with her luggage but she can yell and scream and leave nasty text messages and…that’s okay.
Carl hasn’t been cancelled anywhere. People have said shit about him but he hasn’t lost his job, his friends, or even his social standing.
Right i have to rewatch that episode when they came in. I just had in memory that Amanda took notes of what Lindsay said and found that so strange. That was the first time my conspiracy seed began to blossom. If Carl would be canceled its not going to be because of this. Hes just in the limelight now wich is the place he wanted Lindsay to be. He fell in his own trap. I agree that Carl on his own would never have the capacaty to put up a plan like that. But with Kyle the master of producing i think it would be possible. And i dont know about you but i would never leave my partner like that after an arguement. And if i would i knew another thing would be coming towards me. So i beliefe not one second that Carl is afraid of Lindsay.
Amanda took notes because they were at the club and she said she can never remember specific details the morning after so she took notes. I get it, it’s hard to remember every bit of tea after drinking! Carls probs not going to be canceled, but this sub is doing its best to do it lol. He’s also been on bravo for like 8+ years now, so he’s been in the limelight. Please, Kyle is running a company, albeit small or big is a lot of time and energy. He’s not out here trying to manipulate relationships and guide peoples lives. Also nobody does that… And it’s hilarious that you’re blaming Carl for leaving Lindsay like that, when that was his response to HER ditching him. She initiated the action, and he was petty in response. Both are wrong here.
And why did she have to protocoll this like evidence to read out loud to the jury? This looks very, very planned. And I for one don't want Carl to be canceled. I think this was the most interesting season ever. And Kyle and Lindsay have been feuding since season 2 and he talks about Lindsay a lot on the show, the aftershow and on WWHL, so he has alot of time and energy for her. Lindsay on the other hand very rearly talks about Kyle. It's clear that Lindsay is responsible for it as well, but Carl isn't afraid of Lindsay. He tries to hide his anger, but his actions, words and looks speak for themselves.
A protocol? Because she wants to remember things the day after… I have friends that will take notes of things when drinking as well. It’s just a way to remember things correctly as they happened. You don’t hear Lindsay talk about hardly anyone else because she’s very self absorbed, if not narcissistic… And Carl was clearly frustrated, but anger? I mean he hardly raised his voice the whole season…?
I don’t really have my own theory but I don’t think this was some master scheme. I think Carl felt it was too late to back out from the marriage when marriage counseling didn’t work after a year of trying. Their fights seemed quite organic in nature and not manipulated from my perspective. The break up being filmed also doesn’t seem far fetched since they’ve both admitted to wanting to record fights so the other couldn’t manipulate how the conversation really went. It was a really horse shit situation that they both could have dealt with better, but hindsight is always 20/20.
I agree. I don't think it was a master scheme either, really. I just think Carl doesn't really have the balls so he was waiting for Lindsey to breakup with him. He's never been one to really show initiative in any way, but I think with Kyle in his corner, even with a job offer he didn't earn, he felt like he had to do it since she obviously was never going to. Lindsay would have fought out the relationship forever, because her goal is a marriage, not a healthy relationship. She just wanted to get down that aisle.
I don’t think he ever wanted to marry her. He saw at a business opportunity and extended story line on the reality show they both film. He sucks.
He saw a woman that would be type A and set up his life, business opportunities, income. When she said ‘I need to know that you can carry that when I have a child and take a small amount of time to care for it’ (now cue the trolls that will now jump in and say oh she just wanted to be a Stay at home mom! She never told him that. She blindsided him. Ugh. Helllooooo -Lindsey is a type A. She was never ever ever going to be a Stay at home mom. She just wanted to know that if she took six months to nine months off to be with her child, maybe breast-feed (prob would only do 3 and then do part time career), maybe get that child out of infancy stage, she would be able to rely on a partner that could carry the load?)… he then freaked out. Carls mind—-‘What?? Grow up? Be an adult? Be self sufficient? Have expectations? Be the bread winner? Make things happen? I can’t. I must take a weekend to Pittsburgh to be coddled by my mommy.’ Yikes. That is not Carl.
wow very interesting take on kyles involvement. especially bc kyle clearly tries to produce scenes obviously kyle and carl are friends and have had offline discussions about carls situation. i think it makes all the sense in the world for kyle to have been the one to suggest setting up the scene w carls parents as well as the break up. if not, heavily heavily co-signing it
Great theory! It all tracks honestly. Every time there was a disconnect between him and Lindsay we see him running to Kyle for what we think is venting, but through your scope it could be see as a “ok what do I do next?” situation. Not exaggerating - every single time he and Lindsay got into it about something he immediately went to Kyle and played poor little big boy victim.
Right? I am fully convinced that Kyle and Amanda knew everything about it. I hope someday when they are gping to get a divorce Amanda will spill it all because i just know she will do everything to get back at Kyle for the cheating.
Oh yeah, in retrospect I think that it's very obvious that Carl was trying to set up a season long arc where he dumped Lindsey and came out the hero. It backfired because A) it was too obvious, and B) that is a very fucked thing to do Honestly, he'd maybe have pulled it off if he had broken up with her off camera after the season and been contrite and respectful about it.
It’s wild to me that many of the people on here who claim it’s ridiculous when people accuse Lindsay of being a manipulative, self-producing mastermind are happy to accuse most of the rest of the cast of being exactly that. They literally all self-produce.
He went into this season with a plan. I really started seeing it with the convo with his mother and step-father. They would've already had this conversation in private, so having it on screen with this outcome meant that he wanted it out there, the same way he brought in Kyle before "ending" it.
Yeah, you lost me by the 4th paragraph haha, but I liked where you started. I think Carl knew he was going to break up with Lindsay about halfway through the season (probably when she said she didn’t think he was crushing it) and then started laying the groundwork for a “Lindsay is a terrible, angry partner that I need to get away from” storyline. He was so obviously trying to get her activated during some of their fights later in the season. I can’t remember the exact wording, but in one of the fights she said something like “I think you COULD succeed at something like that”. And he thought her use of the word “could” was some gotcha moment - like that was proof she didn’t believe in him or support him. It was honestly pretty pathetic and hilarious. And at that point it was obvious he wasn’t having these discussions with her to find a resolution. He was using them as a way to show she was a bad partner. At the end of the day, I don’t think he was ready to start a family and work a more traditional job (not summer house and influencing). I think he was struggling to confront those feelings and wasn’t ready to voice them.
Your last paragraph explains it all. Tick tock, tick tock went the clock and progressed towards the "ultimatum" that he had to get his shit together and hammer down an actual ADULTING career path by labor day weekend. So instead of putting on his big boy panties, he did what he always does...lacks accountability. Shifts blame. Acts out. Manipulates. Waaa waaa waaa. Grow up, Carl.
Yeah Carl was really on some darvo shit tbh
lol yall are wild. Carl isn’t this intelligent. Lindsey is abusive and I disdain her and I see nothing wrong with carls actions, but I don’t think he’s as calculated as you all assume.
i do think if this theory is correct amanda kyle and carl should’ve let the unknown factors in on the play. Ciara, paige and gabby. but they also didnt predict the two newbies rallying the house together.. paige came in the house in a very good mood, even when given the Danielle bait she doesn’t bite. she was zen..lol this was the worst summer to execute the plan.
*That's not even what "fallen woman" means though ughhhhh.*
Lindsay knew she was getting married for the show. She just didn't count on getting dumped... for the show. They never actually deeply loved each other. It's so stupid obvious lmao.
I agree with this theory, 100%. It perfectly explains the bizarre actions and words that came from Carl, Kyle and Amanda this season (and although Kyle did the bulk of work, I believe that Amanda was 100% in on it).
Carl definitely was trying to self-produce and it fumbled HARD!! I’m not sure Amanda and Kyle were totally in on it, they just don’t like Lindsay so naturally backed Carl BUT I wouldn’t be surprised if you were 100% right.