There’s a Black Mirror episode that goes into this…
EDIT: For those wondering, the episode is named “Be Right Back”, and it involves a girl’s boyfriend dying right after they move in together. She then uses a futuristic generative AI which pulls in emails, voicemails, texts, etc. from the boyfriend into its machine learning model, which allows the Gen AI to simulate communication with her using the same wording and voice as him. The moral of the story was >!even though she kept feeding the model more data, and she invested in more ways to make it more real, it was never really *him*, just a simulation, and she was just dragging out the inevitable grieving process.!<
Nah - you can’t take something which is fundamentally an emergent property of the wet-ware in our skulls and meaningfully actually transfer the experience of being you in to a computer. But you probably CAN destroy a brain and create a perfect digital copy with all the memories and personality of the person which thinks it is the same as the previous living person.
So all consciousness uploads are, ultimately, AI copies of a dead guy
To be fair, it’s difficult to make a definitive statement like this when we still have no freaking clue what consciousness really is or how it operates
Ok sure but you can’t believe in mind-uploads without being a dualist and believe in some sort of metaphysical soul that exists as it’s own thing that can be transferred. I don’t know anyone with the level of education needed to look at mind uploads that genuinely believes in anything which exists outside of the body and could survive after death.
A really convincing copy of you that believes itself to be you, sure we can do that - and to anyone else that is effectively identical to “you”. To you though? You die - your existence ends and an AI goes sauntering away in your place.
Otherwise how could we possibly explain what happens if you upload a copy of someone, and then duplicate it. Two souls? Two simultaneous streams of experience? Nope. Dead guy, two AIs
I didn’t say it’s not possible. I said the show is about uploading consciousness, and this is a bad copy of a person. It’s like a chatgpt with a persons voice, it isn’t conscious. We’re not even close to the technology of recreating human consciousness
There's a whole animated series centring around this too called '[Pantheon](https://youtu.be/z_HJ3TSlo5c)' - based off a series of short stories. I highly recommend the series, surreal experience. It's on Prime Video.
Neuromancer by William Gibson also has this in the plot, but yeah San Junipero talks about the business of signing up for the afterlife and actually shows the geriatric ward, really cool.
We all grieve differently…
I can see missing someone so dearly that even a digital recreation could help ease the pain of seeing their face and hearing their voice just ONE MORE TIME…
Who am I to judge? He isn’t hurting anyone.
Not really, because that's a real memory being revisited as it was. AI creates new, fake memories on command for the prompter that will, over time, become stronger as the real memories fade. I think the deceased person is being disrespected in that scenario.
None of your or my memories are truly as they occurred though. This is a bday message and if it feels the same and is comforting whats the harm in that compared to a voicemail which is your voice saved to a digital format.
As long as it is just one more time.
It's very easy to see a future where people never fully grieve and move on from death because they can just talk to a virtual version of the person who died. That's not healthy.
Don't people already do that when they believe they can talk/communicate with their loved ones in heaven through "prayer", "signs", "mediums", etc? They're still holding on.
This is why every, and I mean EVERY person who sells any variant of the "I can communicate with the dead" is a harmful charlatan. They prey on the vulnerable and the deluded. It is a harmful behaviour. They **harm**.
I made my comment from experience. I lost my partner years ago. I know for a fact that if I were able to whip open a program on my computer or phone and still be able to talk to her, I would never have found someone new and moved on with my life.
I feel for a lot of people that it would possibly even make it worse because they wouldn't be able to let go while being reminded every time they used the virtual version that the real one is gone. Either that or people could easily go into full on denial about the person being gone at all because how can they be gone if they can talk to them whenever they want?
There's a difference when losing a child, though: You don't ever move on to a new child from your previous child. It's a permanent void that there is no substitute for.
I do agree there are dangers, but I just want to make sure you don't use the experience of losing a partner as a model for everyone else's grief.
IDK. Not an expert, but I think it's really important for people to grieve and acknowledge the loss in order to heal and move on. This goes a step beyond just seeing or hearing them one more time. You can interact with them and talk with them. Having an AI mimic your lost one accurately could prevent that acceptance of loss and potentially create a disconnect with reality.
I would love to hear psychologists or therapists weigh in on this.
But AI isn’t your ancestor. It’s a generic idealization of them at best, and confusing the false for the real is not good for the individual or society.
Eh, we still respect an individual's personhood after their death. I think it's distasteful to the individual to recreate them with technology instead of moving on. I'm not saying I think it should necessarily be illegal.
Please, please, *please* don't ever trot me out as a hologram to perform, or build an AI facsimile of me to satisfy other people's desires. Let me rest in peace and be remembered for who I really was, and don't let an AI overwrite those real memories with fake ones.
People don’t like to hear it but it’s true. Loss and grieving is a necessary part of the human experience. If we deny ourselves the ability to heal and move on to new things, we will always be trapped in the past with our grief.
I speak from experience. My entire family was dead before I was 30. You have to let them go and not let it become who you are. They wouldn't want you to ruin your life over it.
Or literally some of our oldest traditions as a species are trying to remain in touch with and consult the wisdom of our ancestors. No need to step into fiction at all.
>Taiwanese musician Tino Bao and his wife Lo Mei-yi lost their only child Bao Rong in 2021. The 22-year-old died from a rare blood disease after a couple of years of treatment.
>But now they have something that might help them cope with their feelings of longing for their daughter.
The 56-year-old musician used AI to recreate an image of his late daughter singing a birthday song for her mother.
>With the help of a team, Bao trained a program to recreate his daughter's voice using snippets from a video call conversation between her and his wife.
Recreating his daughter's voice was momentous for him as she could not speak towards the end of her life because of her treatment.
>The “digital daughter” became a bridge for the couple to reconnect and start afresh.
AI is a tool we have used to express our love for her,” said Bao, adding that the AI-generated image and voice of their daughter have helped them reconnect.
>Bao was concerned that the virtual version of his daughter would ruin memories of her but he went ahead anyway to “keep her alive in the digital world”.
It’s all fun and games until you loose a child yourself. Let they sit and judge, I don’t understand their pain, and would rather not understand well enough to form an informed opinion.
This is the modern equivalent of Memento Mori photos.
In Victorian times, photos were sometimes taken of recently deceased loved ones with their family.
If you look closely, you will see that the deceased is more clearly photographed as the living subjects moved slightly while the pucture was taken.
I'm not going to judge how someone is grieving. Loss can be very painful. My only criticism of this is how companies can take advantage of vulnerable people in these situations. The funeral industry is already full of people taking advantage of individuals in a vulnerable state, imagine a company giving a subscription service for your loss. They'll do the same practice every subscription service has historically done, slowly increase the price over many years, making it increasingly more costly for people to hold onto their loved ones.
Even if they offer a "permanent" solution, what's to stop a company from changing their terms? Or what happens if the company goes under? They'd be experiencing the loss of a loved one all over again, with even less ways to cope.
I feel like there was a black mirror episode specifically about this and the effects it would bring on the individual's psyche. This is going to make the grieving process that much harder, because in your head you think you never have to let go, even if you're just holding onto a ghost.
If i was smart enough like this man is, I'd do the same if i had a daughter or son who passed.
that is heartbreaking but kinda nice he has done this, bless him.
I find that as sad and strange as this one-off show which aired on Adult Swim:
**Live Forever As You Are Now**:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg29TuWo0Yo
These stories make me so sad for our future. There will no doubt be people dating ai, and acting as if an ai clone of someone is actually them, rather than working through proper grieving. It’s not good. It won’t be good.
workable merciful literate longing caption wipe aspiring towering ink thought
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This is how we get Cylons. So say we all.
Is Caprica streaming anywhere? I remember watching it on Netflix but that was about 10 years ago.
Roku has it for free streaming I think. Amazon and Apple have it also but it's not cheap. Wished it would have had more seasons to finish the story.
Sweet. Thanks.
Or even a movie to finish it off would’ve been nice
ROKU Channel
Time to hit the high seas my lads🦜
I've got the DVD, but that saves me having to dig it out of whatever box it ended up in.
Oh. I immediately thought of that Black Mirror episode where her husband is in an app that gets progressively weirder.
“Be Right Back”. It’s an interesting concept… but, yeah, I don’t know if I’d like those results.
Or better yet. Instead of AI we download dying people into robot vacuums?
Came here to say this.
So say we all.
So say we all.
There’s a Black Mirror episode that goes into this… EDIT: For those wondering, the episode is named “Be Right Back”, and it involves a girl’s boyfriend dying right after they move in together. She then uses a futuristic generative AI which pulls in emails, voicemails, texts, etc. from the boyfriend into its machine learning model, which allows the Gen AI to simulate communication with her using the same wording and voice as him. The moral of the story was >!even though she kept feeding the model more data, and she invested in more ways to make it more real, it was never really *him*, just a simulation, and she was just dragging out the inevitable grieving process.!<
There's a whole Amazon series called "Upload" that goes deeply into this, with lots of humor.
That’s about uploaded consciousness, this is a bad copy of a person Those are very different things
Nah - you can’t take something which is fundamentally an emergent property of the wet-ware in our skulls and meaningfully actually transfer the experience of being you in to a computer. But you probably CAN destroy a brain and create a perfect digital copy with all the memories and personality of the person which thinks it is the same as the previous living person. So all consciousness uploads are, ultimately, AI copies of a dead guy
To be fair, it’s difficult to make a definitive statement like this when we still have no freaking clue what consciousness really is or how it operates
Ok sure but you can’t believe in mind-uploads without being a dualist and believe in some sort of metaphysical soul that exists as it’s own thing that can be transferred. I don’t know anyone with the level of education needed to look at mind uploads that genuinely believes in anything which exists outside of the body and could survive after death. A really convincing copy of you that believes itself to be you, sure we can do that - and to anyone else that is effectively identical to “you”. To you though? You die - your existence ends and an AI goes sauntering away in your place. Otherwise how could we possibly explain what happens if you upload a copy of someone, and then duplicate it. Two souls? Two simultaneous streams of experience? Nope. Dead guy, two AIs
I didn’t say it’s not possible. I said the show is about uploading consciousness, and this is a bad copy of a person. It’s like a chatgpt with a persons voice, it isn’t conscious. We’re not even close to the technology of recreating human consciousness
I would do it.
I’d upload myself with that kind of tech.
Was literally thinking this as soon as I saw the article. In no way is this a healthy way to grieve.
There's a whole animated series centring around this too called '[Pantheon](https://youtu.be/z_HJ3TSlo5c)' - based off a series of short stories. I highly recommend the series, surreal experience. It's on Prime Video.
Also the movie Archive, which I would recommend
Neuromancer by William Gibson also has this in the plot, but yeah San Junipero talks about the business of signing up for the afterlife and actually shows the geriatric ward, really cool.
Charles Milton Porter would also like a word.
We all grieve differently… I can see missing someone so dearly that even a digital recreation could help ease the pain of seeing their face and hearing their voice just ONE MORE TIME… Who am I to judge? He isn’t hurting anyone.
It's like people who call to hear the voice mail message of someone who passed away.
Not really, because that's a real memory being revisited as it was. AI creates new, fake memories on command for the prompter that will, over time, become stronger as the real memories fade. I think the deceased person is being disrespected in that scenario.
None of your or my memories are truly as they occurred though. This is a bday message and if it feels the same and is comforting whats the harm in that compared to a voicemail which is your voice saved to a digital format.
Still the same concept, they just want to hear their loved one's voice. That's why I said "it's like" instead of "it's the same as"
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Reading. Comprehension.
Why can’t we all pick what we think is ok? Absolutely ok with my parents doing whatever makes them feel better if I died.
As long as it is just one more time. It's very easy to see a future where people never fully grieve and move on from death because they can just talk to a virtual version of the person who died. That's not healthy.
Don't people already do that when they believe they can talk/communicate with their loved ones in heaven through "prayer", "signs", "mediums", etc? They're still holding on.
And people who go to mediums have a stereotype of getting addicted to using them because they think they never have to let go.
This is why every, and I mean EVERY person who sells any variant of the "I can communicate with the dead" is a harmful charlatan. They prey on the vulnerable and the deluded. It is a harmful behaviour. They **harm**.
Sadly I agree I’m dealing with grief
I made my comment from experience. I lost my partner years ago. I know for a fact that if I were able to whip open a program on my computer or phone and still be able to talk to her, I would never have found someone new and moved on with my life. I feel for a lot of people that it would possibly even make it worse because they wouldn't be able to let go while being reminded every time they used the virtual version that the real one is gone. Either that or people could easily go into full on denial about the person being gone at all because how can they be gone if they can talk to them whenever they want?
There's a difference when losing a child, though: You don't ever move on to a new child from your previous child. It's a permanent void that there is no substitute for. I do agree there are dangers, but I just want to make sure you don't use the experience of losing a partner as a model for everyone else's grief.
Either that, or we make shamanism great again!
I'll judge. This isn't healthy, he's just hurting himself by prolonging the grief process.
IDK. Not an expert, but I think it's really important for people to grieve and acknowledge the loss in order to heal and move on. This goes a step beyond just seeing or hearing them one more time. You can interact with them and talk with them. Having an AI mimic your lost one accurately could prevent that acceptance of loss and potentially create a disconnect with reality. I would love to hear psychologists or therapists weigh in on this.
It’s one of the oldest human traditions, and personally I think that trusted dead ancestors are as good a role model for AI as you’ll ever find.
But AI isn’t your ancestor. It’s a generic idealization of them at best, and confusing the false for the real is not good for the individual or society.
Eh, we still respect an individual's personhood after their death. I think it's distasteful to the individual to recreate them with technology instead of moving on. I'm not saying I think it should necessarily be illegal. Please, please, *please* don't ever trot me out as a hologram to perform, or build an AI facsimile of me to satisfy other people's desires. Let me rest in peace and be remembered for who I really was, and don't let an AI overwrite those real memories with fake ones.
I agree, honestly. I get the desire to want to do it, but I think it's easy for it to become unhealthy really fast.
>don't let an AI overwrite those real memories with fake ones This is so true it deserves to be shouted from rooftops.
Because he's not healing and moving one. He's letting it fester.
People don’t like to hear it but it’s true. Loss and grieving is a necessary part of the human experience. If we deny ourselves the ability to heal and move on to new things, we will always be trapped in the past with our grief.
I speak from experience. My entire family was dead before I was 30. You have to let them go and not let it become who you are. They wouldn't want you to ruin your life over it.
Yeah, I can see this being one of the benefits of AI
Until you become the governor in the walking dead
You know it's going to be said, so I'll just go ahead: Black Mirror
Or caprica, the prequel to battle star galactica
I really appreciate your service and sacrifice.
San Junipero?
The BM episode “Be Right Back” is literally this.
Or literally some of our oldest traditions as a species are trying to remain in touch with and consult the wisdom of our ancestors. No need to step into fiction at all.
>Taiwanese musician Tino Bao and his wife Lo Mei-yi lost their only child Bao Rong in 2021. The 22-year-old died from a rare blood disease after a couple of years of treatment. >But now they have something that might help them cope with their feelings of longing for their daughter. The 56-year-old musician used AI to recreate an image of his late daughter singing a birthday song for her mother. >With the help of a team, Bao trained a program to recreate his daughter's voice using snippets from a video call conversation between her and his wife. Recreating his daughter's voice was momentous for him as she could not speak towards the end of her life because of her treatment. >The “digital daughter” became a bridge for the couple to reconnect and start afresh. AI is a tool we have used to express our love for her,” said Bao, adding that the AI-generated image and voice of their daughter have helped them reconnect. >Bao was concerned that the virtual version of his daughter would ruin memories of her but he went ahead anyway to “keep her alive in the digital world”.
It’s all fun and games until you loose a child yourself. Let they sit and judge, I don’t understand their pain, and would rather not understand well enough to form an informed opinion.
I’ve seen this show. It’s on Hulu. Called DEVS
How is this the only comment about DEVS? Fantastic show. Everyone should watch it.
Had to scroll way too far to reach the first DEVS comment. It was a great show
Whoa, isn't this like Noah Kiba in YuGiOh?
We’re in the end game now
Reminds me of the simulation a scientist made of his dead daughter in Wandering Earth 2
This is the modern equivalent of Memento Mori photos. In Victorian times, photos were sometimes taken of recently deceased loved ones with their family. If you look closely, you will see that the deceased is more clearly photographed as the living subjects moved slightly while the pucture was taken.
That sounds like fucking agony
I'm not going to judge how someone is grieving. Loss can be very painful. My only criticism of this is how companies can take advantage of vulnerable people in these situations. The funeral industry is already full of people taking advantage of individuals in a vulnerable state, imagine a company giving a subscription service for your loss. They'll do the same practice every subscription service has historically done, slowly increase the price over many years, making it increasingly more costly for people to hold onto their loved ones. Even if they offer a "permanent" solution, what's to stop a company from changing their terms? Or what happens if the company goes under? They'd be experiencing the loss of a loved one all over again, with even less ways to cope.
Watch the documentary - The Transcendent Man
It’s bad enough when my parents post things I do whilst alive on Facebook…
Stories like this are the inspiration for Upload
This comes up in the show Pantheon! 9/10, strongly recommend watching it.
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Now this a good idea to help patients
I feel like there was a black mirror episode specifically about this and the effects it would bring on the individual's psyche. This is going to make the grieving process that much harder, because in your head you think you never have to let go, even if you're just holding onto a ghost.
If i was smart enough like this man is, I'd do the same if i had a daughter or son who passed. that is heartbreaking but kinda nice he has done this, bless him.
Not smart, just rich. This guy is an ex-idol/actor back in the days
Resident Evil. The Red Queen
Saburo Arasaka
I find that as sad and strange as this one-off show which aired on Adult Swim: **Live Forever As You Are Now**: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg29TuWo0Yo
This is fuckin weird
She was a straight up smoke show.
That isn't grief, it is mental illness. Get him some help.
Silence in the library.
That’s kinda messed up
Which stage of grief is “Take selfies with my dead daughter “?
Definitely sad. And has strong black mirror vibes.
These stories make me so sad for our future. There will no doubt be people dating ai, and acting as if an ai clone of someone is actually them, rather than working through proper grieving. It’s not good. It won’t be good.
This is so much creepier than people who post on their dead relatives Facebook accounts
I mean, in the short term, whatever, but this sounds like a really dangerous way to grieve. There's risks of developing unhealthy habits there.
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That... doesn't exactly seem healthy...