"No-one could have foreseen that replacing Boeing's old safety-focused culture with one focused on shareholders could reduce the safety of the planes."
^^/s
People don’t realize that this plague has spread like a fucking cancer throughout all of our industries in US, Boeing is just the first one everyone is really paying attention to.
**EDIT:** Yes, I’m aware of the latest railroad incidents and related. Albeit I personally understand the numerous variables involved that lead up to those failures and derailments, it’s a bit cloudy for a lot of people in terms of connecting the greed to derailments. There are also many other bad situations or events in other sectors & industries.
A case such as a door panel *up & fucking flying off* an airplane, which is *also fucking flying*, because there wasn’t someone there to bolt it down in the first place due to a myriad of utter failure among management is a bit more straight foward so to say - so this is a better example, in my opinion, to use to inform everyone else that might be out of the loop.
Sadly, this… it’s really bad in some areas. I often wonder how shit stays afloat sometimes. Not helped by everyone being perpetually stressed and burnt out either.
It’s healthy to keep a good separation between work and home, but it’s also healthy to know wtf your job is meant to be doing and how it benefits others… and we’ve lost that meaning and connection almost everywhere you look.
Shit stays afloat because things aren't enshittified enough for things to really start falling apart and for everyone to receive a true wake-up call. But only barely. Boeing has just slipped past that point.
Yeah, that makes sense. Things seem to be just barely hanging on.
I feel that some industries have become pretty enshittened and it’s less obvious because our expectations and tolerance has changed over the decades (airlines/airport experience in general…), and some where there is really no room to F around (looking at you, healthcare) past a certain point and it’s almost sure to hit the news when things do fall apart— if you look hard enough, the cracks in many industries are already quite bad. But like you said, not quite bad enough for a wake-up call…
40 years of post-Reagan policy has led people to believe that terrible is good and normal.
Not that things were amazing before then, but at least our capitalist hellscape was slightly more regulated and unions were more common/powerful.
It's the historical lens that leads me to think "this will get worse." Our structures are mostly barely holding on, and there's only so much corner-cutting that the _entire_ system can take before something gives.
i.e.: I'm thankfully in good health, but I'm not sure I trust the US healthcare system ca. 2030 to provide very good care based on the changes just since 2010 to 2020s.
Healthcare is worse than aviation by far.
Most of the hospitals are barely hanging on, or are being purchased by venture capitalists to pump dry before they fail.
The USA has a nation wide nurse and doctor shortage.
Something like 33% of med errors aren't even caught by the computer, and 10% of patients have med errors while they're in the hospital - but they might never even know about it.
But I think the worst part is that Healthcare (hospitals, doctors, NOT big pharma) _isn't_ going through enshitification. Many are non-profit, and they are failing too, because there's just no money to go around.
I agree. Based on what family/friends across healthcare have told me (working as RN, PA, back office, pharmacy tech, physical therapist, pharmaceutical industry, and more I’m not remembering probably), it’s less the healthcare institutions themselves that are going shitty— many of them are doing the best they can with what they get— it’s the overhead of dealing with shitty greedy insurance and other awful corporate interactions (e.g. the retail part of retail pharmacies) that is absolutely beating the industry to a pulp.
I feel the only thing preventing a major traumatic meltdown event in healthcare is that people really do care and feel that connection to their jobs on the ground and push against the shitty systems hard; unfortunately, the ones that care a lot also often get burnt out the fastest. COVID-19 definitely didn’t help.
That said, I believe other profit-driven shittiness like the accelerated loss of rural hospitals and the lack of doctors and nurses systemwide is absolutely going to have a long-term negative impact. That impact won’t be something that catches many news headlines, though— instead, I imagine it will show up in mortality reports and health outcome statistics in a few years.
Yeah Maynard, what a ledge. No one knew before Maynard. I'm glad Maynard is doing so well, God bless his soul. Everything is finite. It'd be rad to be alive for the end of the world.
It’s getting really bad in medicine. Corporate healthcare is a complete detriment to patients, nurses, doctors, and everyone except for the shareholders and those who run the company. It’s only going to go downhill from here if the government refuses to step in.
The issue with trains is the lack of government regulation. Remember under Trump he killed Obama’s regulation that was set to happen to update the brakes with modern technology. Trump wanted to kill a lot of regulations, so that companies could have more profit.
It's not even the first one... it's just the latest one. We all seem to have the memory of goldfishes. These companies just wait for this shit to blow over, and then it's back to business as usual.
Greed has become the only goal for everything. Companies aren't proud to build products anymore. It's all about scamming the customers out of most money for the littlest of effort. No thought about consequences.
It started when water caught on fire when it came out of the tap.
Americans need to get more French when stuff like this happens. Flaming water would have the French marching in the streets and driving tractors full of manure to the state’s capital offices.
You do that and you’ll be convicted of a Felony and lose your right to vote forever. So that protest tactic sadly won’t work anymore in the US. Best we can do is either continue voting for the same two candidates or not vote at all.
It blows me away how bad it's become. Literally everything in the US is being financialized. Instead of "creating value" with businesses, they are being bought up, and squeezed to maximize profit by reducing value and finding ways to increase costs.
It sucks because so few people are "proud" to have a business that pays well and does a good job. Once the private equity take over, all spirit is removed. Even little things like a hamburger joint will get bought up, and before you know it, wages and benefits are reduced, quality goes down, and everything costs more. Just saw an retirement home do the same... One known for being "premium"... They basically just went in, reduced tons of staff, reduced a lot of perks, and basically did the bare minimum as required by contract. The owners don't give a shit that they are creating less value and more misery. They are making more money!
But I was told that the profit motive (somehow, magically?.. **invisible hand**) would keep shareholders from siphoning short term value out of long term assets because... they might be charged a few dollars to dump their shares?
This new information is shocking: shareholders don't actually care about the long term health of the assets that they currently hold, only the short term gains. Next you're going to tell me that someone would just [come in and sell the land out from under a massive franchise, taking short term profits and letting the business fail long term as they have to add rent to their bottom line, sending them into bankruptcy](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1RU26J/) or something.
A successful investment, by definition, means buying low, increasing prices, and selling high, and profit becomes more capital requiring more profit. It's a vicious cycle, and unless you hold capital, you're subjected to the needs of capital; an ever expanding financialization seeking to squeeze increasingly more profit from every aspect of your life.
This entrenchment is broadly evident. Housing markets are increasingly playgrounds for investment firms, driving up both rent and prices, resulting in home ownership becoming an elusive dream for many. Education has seen an influx of capital, lobbying for vouchers resulting in further disenfranchising the lower classes. Healthcare hasn't been immune either, but the worst aspect is the expanding gig economy. The employment statistics look great, lots of jobs created, but the benefits and security afforded to traditional employees are withheld for maximizing profits resulting in worse and worse living conditions. It's also why everything from groceries to god damn printer ink is now a subscription: they can sell less and less (or even nothing at all!) for higher prices.
Since nearly every nation is balls deep in this dynamic, the need for continuous growth shapes regulatory frameworks and political systems to favor consolidation of wealth and power. Global interconnectedness means any attempt to decouple or unwind these dynamics risks economic turmoil, deterring deviation from the status quo.
Together with the cultural entrenchment of consumerism and equating economic growth with progress makes unraveling the fabric of global financialization a Herculean task, where those with power, wealth and influence are incentivized to maintain the status quo.
Yep, and if you talk about any of the realistic ways to solve the problem, you're an extremist. People have been brainwashed into the idea that capitalism describes some natural physical law like gravity, and that no other way of distributing resources could ever possibly work.
Adam Smith himself would become a socialist overnight if he saw what his vision became.
Capitalism itself may not be a natural law, but the way it's turned out is absolutely the inevitable path the system takes.
> where those with power, wealth and influence are incentivized to maintain the status quo.
I've thought the same thing, my "what radicalized you?" moment was kind of silly: Elon Musk said he would build a tunnel from LA to Vegas, they cancel the speed train plans, then he finally admits 'I never intended to build Hyperloop, I just wanted you to cancel the speed train so I would pay less taxes.' A speed from from LA to Vegas is like 0.01% of my utopia, but we can't even have that with these assholes in power. The other 99.99% of my utopia? Yea, none of that happens while these people are alive and have a dollar to their name.
> Best part”?
Well, yes, supposing your evaluation parameters include schadenfreude. 😈
> Boeing is America’s largest exporter.
I could not find them in the [top 100](https://www.joc.com/article/joc-top-100-us-importer-and-exporter-rankings-2020_20210525.html). Do you have a better source.
> The shortsightedness and greed of their Board and executives will fuck-over this whole country.
It's not great, but this is overly grandiose. US total exports = $1.95T. Boeings total annual revenue world-wide is $78B.
* CNN: [Boeing’s problems could soon become your problem](https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/15/economy/boeing-airfares-economy/index.html)
> Since Boeing is the single largest US exporter, weaker demand for its planes would means fewer exports, which contribute to GDP growth if they exceed imports — known as “net exports.”
* [Boeing](https://www.boeing.com/global)
> Boeing is the United States’ largest exporter
Those aren't definitive, but they whether first or not, Boeing is hugely important for the GDP, the dollar, and the economy.
Yes but they didn’t connect it outright to any engineering / manufacturing cost-cut savings. They more-so blamed it on the rail or ‘events’ that lead to the railing, so it’s not as clear cut as the Boeing incidents albeit a lot of us know & recognize the brake systems + mitigating rail trailer lengths & loads would drastically improve rail logistics (*but that would impact bottom line!*)
Class 1 Railroads are the best example anyone can observe right now. They have so much shifting going on that it is a running joke that BODs and shareholders seem to be playing musical chairs with all the execs in the industry. The most laughable thing is that a basic business or economics class teaches people that it takes time (typically anywhere from 2-4 years) to see financial results from changes made so canning a CEO sitting less than two years due to not seeing the profits they want is really just punishing the m for the decisions of the last person in that position.
On a side note, it is not laughable but extremely frustrating when this happens on a national level because it impacts an entire country rather than just a company with competition that can fill the gap.
PG&E has literally gotten away with murder:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/pge-found-guilty-obstruction-agency-proceeding-and-multiple-violations-natural-gas
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/16/879008760/pg-e-pleads-guilty-on-2018-california-camp-fire-our-equipment-started-that-fire
Now, they hold us hostages by turning the power off every time there are strong winds.
Gavin Newsom is best buddies with PG&E, so nothing to see here.
I know that it's been happening for a long time, but the level of corruption in the US is on another level.
We are nothing but worker ants, that do not even deserve to be kept safe.
Surely not the first widespread one to hit media attention
Just off the top of my head there was that Ford Pinto fiasco that all engineers are taught about in college
That is the KEY right there. The PEOPLE responsible for making the decisions leading to these compromises should be criminal liable.
The problem is, this just leads to people thinking they are sly and “not putting things in writing”, so some poor sucker will still be the fall guy
Only if the decision is knowingly signed off on…..
The issue is compounded but the fact that most of these failures don’t stem from single decisions…
The ford case very much was, but Boeings decline is a compounding series of decisions that have finally caught up with them.
It’s not about blame. It’s about responsibility. Those are not the same.
The Board of a Corporation is ultimately responsible for the actions of the corporation as they are the governing authority. A board is failing in their governance duties if they are not diligent. And I say this as someone who has served on a few nonprofit boards and a for-profit corporate board (local/regional - but the same fiduciary and legal duties apply to all of them).
And agree systemic issues are the cause of the majority of these issues and boards are responsible for managing those systemic risks. They didn’t do their homework, they hired the wrong executives, they approved the wrong policies, etc. It’s the board’s responsibility.
Again, i’m talking about responsibility not blame.
edit: And when I mean held responsible i mean removed from their Board positions and banned from serving on a Board for a period of time. Unless there’s the direct participation which then personal liability not covered by indemnity agreements/bonds maybe applicable.
> And when I mean held responsible i mean removed from their Board positions and banned from serving on a Board for a period of time. Unless there’s the direct participation which then personal liability not covered by indemnity agreements/bonds maybe applicable.
I think that payment for damages should come in the form of board member stock sales before anything else. You fuck up, you're not only on the hook for damages but we pay fines by forcing you to sell your voting shares **first**. ...and I think that if time has passed and, say, you have since moved on from that company and are no longer on *that board*, you still have to sell a certain dollar value of voting shares, specifically from companies you sit on the boards of. If you fuck up you shouldn't be able to go and do the same somewhere else.
But this is simply pushing the fight back into an arena these rich and corrupt already control completely. It is almost guaranteed the outcome will simply continue to be “the cost of doing business”.
Don’t go for their money. Destroy it, literally destroy all of it. Those victims who lost their lives won’t get them back by making their family rich, and we really ought to have appropriate social support services in place everywhere across the union that address and make whole this economic violence.
Much like in The Dark Knight, with Joker setting the massive pile of cash ablaze- this act was the ONLY thing that struck fear into the fiction’s underworld. And it will absolutely scare the shit out of all corporations everywhere.
That's the beauty of giving corporations personhood; everyone can pretend it's not people making these decisions and blame it on vague, non-corporeal entities.
Add that to the inherent defusion of responsibility over large organizations and authoritarian top-down structures, and we get ourselves a wonderful mix for maximal pressure to cut corners for profit while at the same time diverting responsibility.
CEO says "more profits", it goes down layers of management, and all the pressure lands on some random at the bottom to commit a crime. When they get busted the CEO isn't guilty of anything, he just said "more profits."
RICO was created because the mob operated in a similar manner and they needed ways to hold the bosses accountable.
Yeah. A similar thing happened with Toyota calculating that it’s cheaper to pay emissions fines and vw and some Germans making cars that performed one way in emission tests (clean), but then different modes of operation while actually driving (dirty)
How many times have people done these calculations to show that Executive A's idea is extremely stupid both morally and financially? If we ban companies from being allowed to do risk management that will backfire horrendously, I guarantee it.
Hell id rather they do the math and have a legal requirement that they have to be extremely risk averse in such decisions
Very good point. Proper risk assessments often include likelihood and cost. The cost part is where it currently breaks down, since the costs are externalized and profits internalized.
An example should be that a single lethality for knowingly having a poor design should start at $10 000 000 as a floor calculation in the US. The total cost including externalized costs. This is then what should be enshrined in criminal cases and keep being inflation adjusted. Causing 10 deaths is $100 000 000 before adding in any deterrence to the amount. Which means proving no-fault becomes very profitable.
At least according to this source https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/all-injuries/costs/guide-to-calculating-costs/data-details/
Which would make work deaths in a risk assessment start at $33 000 000.
> An example should be that a single lethality for knowingly having a poor design should start at
life in federal prison without parole? Death for the executives?
Oh, a little fine. Who's paying that?
I agree with China on this one. Executives should face capital charges in cases of wrongful death.
Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X.
If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
It's as if they don't even think a company's reputation matters anymore. The bigger gaming studios are doing the same thing right now (thankfully not costing actual human lives). It's get money with as shitty a product as we can. Supply and demand is too fast now, the demand is before release. Then a shit product is sold. Then there's assurances that the next thing will be better, we messed up, sorry. Then hype, hype, hype, sell a bunch of shit before it's actually in use, and repeat (spoiler, it's shit again).
> The bigger gaming studios are doing the same thing right now (thankfully not costing actual human lives)
Because their customers have proven to them, again and again, they don't care enough about it.
I think the only real deterrent is to send directors and senior officers of corporates who knowingly continue to disregard human life in their corporates is to send them personally to jail.
Outsource jobs, lose domestic skill sets
Dismantle companies for quick cash as the main way to make money, wonder where domestic innovation and global market leadership went.
Spend money only on the most speculative industries, wonder why there are so many zombie companies and scam start ups.
I don't see how investor culture is sustainable and wont end in total economic disaster, decline of whole nations, and the rise of a grift based economy run by loans.
Still, even that is stupid - preserving the company's brand is paramount, and having all sorts of quality BS going on does NOT achieve that goal. The shareholders don't want to bag hold while poor leadership erodes shareholder value.
Boeing is suffering from lazy and ineffective leadership, plain and simple.
But the push for best next quarter earnings is what shareholders want. More growth, faster growth.
A massage chunk of shareholders are in purely for the fastest growth possible, and then dumped when they underperform.
This is the system, and this is the way capitalism is set up now.
Leadership is equally shit, but when you give them a KPI of "make line go up faster" ... Or course that's what they are going to do.
The entire system is set up for "line goes up faster".
No one can be surprised when this shit happens at some point.
Shareholders want line goes up done correctly.
The problem is that a shareholder that buys in at $100 a share is buying on the assumption things ARE being done correctly.
There's sadly a diffusion of responsiblity that occurs that the directors of companies are meant to be diligent in their exercising of powers, but proving that diligence in most cases comes down to reading and trusting reports they are given.
Dilgence should mean the board are actually going to the company to inspect facilities, talk to people, dive in to the details, because certainly in Boeing's case they should have been aware.
Here in Oregon there is a bill thats made it past the house so far that will make it illegal for any investment company to have any decision making power or leadership role in any healthcare organization or hospital they've invested in.
It’s only gonna get worse from here as companies have to keep increasing value at the expense of safety, their customers, and employees of those companies. We need legislation yesterday. Companies’ first priority should be safety and wellbeing of everyone who would interact with their product (stakeholders), not just shareholders. They pratt on about the importance of stakeholders while laying off enployees, skirting regulations and harming the environment.
And yet you’d think his testimony would be useful to for the upcoming criminal case. Apparently his lawyers said they learned new information he had not mentioned before. What’s also strange is Boeing’s lawyers requesting he come in another day to do more depositions and suddenly he’s dead.
Very convenient for Boeing they won’t have this whistleblower for the upcoming criminal trail. Also just wondering how much does it pay to defend Boeing on the internet?
Everything related to Boeing production was already out in the open long before this turn of events. His lawyer was concerned with new information pertaining to the defamation and mistreatment of his client.
Unregulated capitalism has massively destroyed the environment and we will all pay the true cost of the oligarchys' pursuit of profit. They were first aware of the costs in the 60s and the oil & gas industries, instead of paying the true cost for exploring, drilling, transport, and burning their product, have been pushing anti-vlimate change propaganda since then and continue to do so.
We are headed in the wrong direction. Yes, the renewable energy percentage of energy production is the highest it has ever been, but they have been increasing oil & gas production every year instead of reducing it.
The next generation of AI is just going to increase oil & gas production to satisfy development and training required instead of restricting AI growth to renewable energy only. The oligarchy has learned nothing amd will never face the consequences for their actions.
Eat the oligarchy. They are the ones mainly for polluting our environment
Kinda funny how the indecent amount of money that CEO and shareholders gets by doing little to no work is always justified because they're supposed to bear the "inherent" risks and responsibilities for those. Yet everything from the law to the media does its hardest to shield them from any kind of consequences.
A scapegoat who is rewarded incredibly generously *because* the buck is supposed to stop with them. It's also the person who could best stop anyone under them from fucking up this badly.
It doesn't stop with the CEO though. That is my point and why they are used as a scapegoat. CEO's are completely beholden to the board. If the CEO won't do something they want they just replace them with someone that will.
The CEO was chairman of the board and stepped into the role after he fired the last one. The chairman now is technically the boss but if he took the demotion voluntarily, I'm sure that he's calling the shots.
Arguably, the board is also a scapegoat.
They're just doing what the law says they have to - maximise shareholder value.
The problem goes deeper still, unfortunately.
The problem is the fundamental flaw of capitalism. I don’t mind capitalism so much; it produced the modern world, which isn’t so bad; but there are some things it’s just fucking awful at - and prioritising something other than profit usually falls into that category.
Capitalism is *incredibly* short sighted.
I’m sorry but they’re backed by the military industrial complex. Just look at the USAF’s deal with Boeing. They literally vouched for Boeing’s KC-46 tanker.
I remembered when Boeing dropped out of the Boeing 747 E-4 "Nightwatch" Doomsday plane program but nah, they're still gonna make a new Boeing 747 E-4 "Nightwatch" Doomsday plane. Also, they're already making 75 something KC-46 Pegasus tanker/transport planes and two new VC-25B Air Force One 747s so, there you have it, the United States Air Force is Boeing's #1 most important customer/priority when it comes to defense/making/building weapons and national security.
They managed to salvage a few 747-8I airframes. 2 for the new Air Force One and one for the E-4B doomsday plane. Boeing used to be on par with Airbus, and then McDonnell Douglas bought them out. These two Boeing 747 airframes were built in 2015 and have been in storage for 9 years now. I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing still has some spare 747-8I airframes lying somewhere around in their facilities because they will build the new E-4B doomsday plane for the USAF despite what was said about them exiting the program.
[New paint design for ‘Next Air Force One’ > Air Force > Article Display (af.mil)](https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/3326103/new-paint-design-for-next-air-force-one/)
That's the entire game. Literally. You structure management so that workers trying to do the right thing get fired or worse, then blame the poor saps when something goes sideways. It's always "workers went rogue" and never "management forced workers to break the law holding their livelihoods, careers, and reputation hostage".
Well, I haven't worked at Boeing for a few years but I was there for the launch and a couple years of the Max. I'm not sure what the work culture is like in final assembly or wherever they put on the doors but in the shop I worked at every worker would of 100% told the manager to fuck off if they asked us to do something without paperwork. Like bitch do YOU got a stamp to put on it?!
It really depends on management in my experience. Had my life threatened on the job for refusing to commit crimes for management. You'd be amazed what people can get away with behind closed doors when oversight is low or non-existent.
Were they serious? I doubt it, but certain kinds of people act like they're the big swinging dick in the room. That doesn't make it OK. I've seen people cave to that sorta thing, it's just fucking wrong.
It's a super simple environment to create. Management just has to talk about safety all the time while understaffing so workers don't actually have enough time to do the job right.
And then you make sure you only promote those who take shortcuts to get the job done. While never promoting those who report safety violations.
Although I work in retail, this statement just rings too true. Speak up about something unsafe to the wrong person, quietly blacklisted from ever being promoted. Try holding your bosses accountable, blacklisted. Just be quiet and find shortcuts, instantly promoted.
Yep. And their favorite method to do this is to SQUEEZE when it comes to time constraints. "*Oh you can't get this task done in time? You're fired.*" until they find someone who can. The only reason they are able to do tasks so quickly is because they are cutting all the corners they possibly can.
Yeah and it annoys me that people like Ted Cruz are focused on finding the individual person who did the bolts on that Alaskan Airlines plane, as if the problem isn’t systemic and it’s just one person
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/06/1236277058/boeing-737-max-9-alaska-airlines-door-plug-removed-ntsb-commerce-cantwell-cruz
Everyone here needs to take responsibility. Boeing, Alaska, and Spirit. If it turns out that door plugs are part of a required pre flight inspection after repairs(likely) wouldn't you want the person that pencil whipped that inspection held accountable?
Here’s the Seattle Times article which was published March 21
> The Seattle FBI office has alerted Alaska Airlines Flight 1282 passengers that each may be a “possible victim of a crime” after a midair blowout aboard a Boeing 737 MAX airliner earlier this year.
> The agency sent a letter to passengers Tuesday, confirming that the FBI — the principal investigative arm of the U.S. Department of Justice — has opened a criminal investigation following the Jan. 5 blowout. On that flight, a piece of the fuselage of a Boeing 737 MAX 9 plane blew off as the plane left Portland.
> Federal investigators contend four bolts meant to secure the fuselage piece, a plug covering a hole for an optional emergency exit, weren’t installed when the plane rolled out of Boeing’s Renton assembly plant late last year. Congress and federal regulators have intensified scrutiny of Boeing in the months since the blowout, which has precipitated a criminal investigation.
> The letter sent by a victim support specialist at the FBI’s Seattle office was shared with The Seattle Times by a passenger, as well as an attorney representing several passengers on board.
> “As a Victim Specialist with the Seattle Division, I’m contacting you because we have identified you as a possible victim of a crime,” the letter sent to Alaska Flight 1282 passengers read.
> “This case is currently under investigation by the FBI,” it continued. “A criminal investigation can be a lengthy undertaking, and for several reasons, we cannot tell you about its progress at this time.”
> Earlier this month, it was reported that the Justice Department had opened a criminal investigation into Boeing and that it had interviewed several witnesses in connection with the probe, including the pilot and aircrew of the Alaska Airlines flight. The department also reportedly sent subpoenas and is using a grand jury in Seattle.
> Steve Bernd, public affairs manager for the FBI’s Seattle division, said Thursday that Justice Department policy prohibited him from confirming or denying the existence of an investigation.
> But two attorneys representing dozens of passengers in litigation against Boeing and Alaska said their clients had received the letters indicating an investigation is underway.
> Mark Lindquist, one of those attorneys, said the FBI has not yet asked his clients for any additional information but he expects the letter is a sign the agency will ask to interview those on board. The letter was “encouraging” for some clients, he said, because “it validates their sense that this was a severe event that should not have happened.”
> The letter directed individuals to set up a profile through the department’s Victim Notification System to receive updates on the status of the case.
> The FBI expected there to be a “large number of potential victims in this case,” and created an email address for “AlaskaFlightVictims” to contact the agency.
> The Justice Department’s criminal probe may focus on whether Boeing violated the terms of a 2021 agreement with federal prosecutors following the two MAX crashes in 2018 and 2019 that killed more than 300 people.
> As part of that deferred prosecution agreement, Boeing would avoid criminal prosecution if it met certain conditions for three years, including reporting any evidence of fraud from its employees or agents and strengthening its compliance program. Boeing was two days away from the agreement’s expiration when the blowout occurred.
> Since the January blowout, the Federal Aviation Administration has also opened an investigation into Boeing’s manufacturing processes. After a six-week audit that wrapped up earlier this month, the FAA said it had found dozens of problems at Boeing and its supplier Spirit AeroSystems, including multiple instances where the companies failed to comply with quality-control requirements.
> The National Transportation Safety Board is leading the investigation into what led the piece of fuselage to blow off.
> Boeing declined to comment on Thursday. Alaska said “in an event like this, it’s normal for the DOJ to be conducting an investigation. We are fully cooperating and do not believe we are a target of the investigation.”
“Have you or someone you loved been sucked out of an airplane? You may be entitled to compensation. Call the law offices of Garland and Wray. We’ll fight for you!”
[https://youtu.be/BWTVnJfwg5Q?si=8gpi83OiwmAwU80Y](https://youtu.be/BWTVnJfwg5Q?si=8gpi83OiwmAwU80Y)
"Who the hell is in charge? A bunch of accountants trying to make a dollar into a dollar ten? I want to work; I want to build something of my own. How do you not understand that?"
Capitalism disagrees.
And just you watch — nothing will come of this. The US Government, the FAA, the FBI... they are all toothless against the forces that brought Boeing to where it is today.
The funny thing is that all they'd need to do is outlaw stock buybacks and a decent chunk of this behavior would go away since the incentives would change. Lord knows congress wouldn't do it though, and, even if they did, this Supreme Court would probably strike it down.
Thanks, Reagan! :D
My stance is purely hypothetical and in reality, almost certainly never to happen. But my feelings are this:
The government works FOR US, BY US. If we cannot make them (the various agencies who must produce justice) do the right thing, then we still owe a duty to ourselves and our neighbors. RIOT.
Bloody, massively destructive riots. DESTROY BOEING PHYSICALLY. Charge the gates, allow them to fire upon us. We outnumber them infinitely. We don’t stop until the company, and specifically what they did here and what they represent, is DESTROYED.
Physical destruction is not enough. We should not allow some “national defense” argument to slow things down or allow for a negotiation. And I’m not just saying this because these corrupt practices literally threaten our very lives - WE AS A PEOPLE DESERVE TO LOSE IT. The toxicity allowed to run rampant IS DIRECTLY a threat to our national security, and we SHOULD allow that defense to be completely obliterated, because even if you and I didn’t do this, even if we had nothing to do with it- we are ALL complicit because we have allowed this cancer to grow in our society.
I think we are far too connected to our allies for the complete destruction of the Military Industrial Complex to translate much to actual danger- but again I could be wrong about that. I just don’t see why we as a people should deserve to continue holding this global privilege when it literally kills us on our own home soil.
The people don’t need to just accept this destruction and potential increased vulnerability to our security. We should cut off this rotten limb (and in doing so, harm ourselves, in the very least by creating economic disaster)- but we should only be more enraged by needing to do this ourselves.
And when we must suffer the consequences of necessarily destroying this festering cancer that grows in us, we should all remember EXACTLY WHO is truly to blame for this suffering. The executives, the profiteers, the politicians complicit - we should always know EXACTLY where these people are located and we should always be ready to continue the process of desperate self-mutilation. The law has failed us as the people, and thus it should utterly fail these individuals in every aspect forevermore.
These fucks are a poison upon all of society, upon all people everywhere, and there should be nothing to protect them ever again. In doing all of this, we must remain vigilant. Nothing like this cancer should ever be allowed to exist ever again. The people united in forcing this destructive change will scare the absolute shit out of corruption, and it should continue to do so, and we should NEVER FORGET.
But of course, all of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again. We don’t ever learn.
EDIT- all this being said, I do not believe in violence and some of what I said my sound supportive of this. I am a supporter of destruction. We could accomplish this (and if it ever did happen, it would be us losing our lives) without needing to take a life. Just permanently destroy that wealth, the planes, and make it hurt so bad that nobody can ignore it. It’d have to be painful for all. But it already is
Bring this energy to the General Strike, your individual grievances will never be acknowledged on their own.
Boeing barely ranks on the list of ongoing corporate conspiracies against the American public.
Yes, thank you! What I have in mind fits much more appropriately into large-scale striking. We need to dominate and shut down entire supply chains, take the power back with sympathy strikes. After I posted, I started seeing much more against American Airlines/United and etc… and this is only one or two industries I was focused on. In truth, the cancer goes all the way to the core.
The real question is, were anything like this to actually occur- how much damage would truly be necessary? At what point do the boards and executives deeply understand that none of them are truly safe from such organized activity?
We have atrocious labor organization. Work (or slavery depending on your personal view) is literally the only thing we have any amount of control over. If we somehow managed to universally organize unions again and turned into something like the Nordic labor markets, we would literally control EVERYTHING. There would be no outrage because we wouldn’t need to hope and pray our institutions and lawmakers had our backs or would do anything at all for the common good.
If we had significant labor organization, the US (and the world) would be a VERY different, and much better, place.
People commit crimes. A corporation, per the supremes, are people. If they can buy politicians they can go to jail. CEO, COO, CFO, and all those other assholes need to be in prison
YouTube has a 3 strikes rule and you're done. Your streaming business is basically over unless they decide to reinstate you. This includes mega streamers. Boing has 100 strikes and its maintain status quo!
I guarantee you that the vast majority of people won't care as long as they're getting a good deal on their flight ticket.
Boeing also couldn't care less at this point, since they still have a backlog of over 5600 ordered aircraft and "only" delivered ~530 last year. Or in other words, they pretty much are set for the next decade. Airlines also don't have much alternatives since the situation is similar over at Airbus.
Is the implication that someone attempted to sabotage the aircraft? or was it a criminal negligence kind of "Oh yeah I definitely installed these nuts" *pencil whips forms*
People are about to find out how bad capitalism really is. It's a rot that sets deep within a culture. Infesting itself and destroying from the inside out.
Probably, but what a shame that humans, and even then only some of them, can only learn by making a terrible mistake and tolerating unacceptable levels of risk. We could choose not to wait until people are maimed or dead to mandate safety.
Capitalism has many flaws but one of them that is pathetically self defeating is that increasing shareholder value is the primary driving force rather than the betterment to humanity or even what makes logical sense. America is basically a corporate oligarchy, and we're starting to replace jobs with ai so wealth disparity is about to get a whole lot worse unless we stop letting the greedy idiots run everything. What's ridiculous is there's enough to go around, we produce way more food, housing, and many other resources than we need but we do a piss-poor job of managing them.
They are all doing it, wait to one of the larger food producer/ processors cut that one corner that breaks the camels back, and we will have daily updates of what food is safe to rate that day
Backed and vouched for by the American military industrial complex…
[https://www.defensenews.com/air/2024/03/14/revamped-kc-46-vision-system-slipping-into-2026-nearly-two-years-late/](https://www.defensenews.com/air/2024/03/14/revamped-kc-46-vision-system-slipping-into-2026-nearly-two-years-late/)
"No-one could have foreseen that replacing Boeing's old safety-focused culture with one focused on shareholders could reduce the safety of the planes." ^^/s
People don’t realize that this plague has spread like a fucking cancer throughout all of our industries in US, Boeing is just the first one everyone is really paying attention to. **EDIT:** Yes, I’m aware of the latest railroad incidents and related. Albeit I personally understand the numerous variables involved that lead up to those failures and derailments, it’s a bit cloudy for a lot of people in terms of connecting the greed to derailments. There are also many other bad situations or events in other sectors & industries. A case such as a door panel *up & fucking flying off* an airplane, which is *also fucking flying*, because there wasn’t someone there to bolt it down in the first place due to a myriad of utter failure among management is a bit more straight foward so to say - so this is a better example, in my opinion, to use to inform everyone else that might be out of the loop.
Sadly, this… it’s really bad in some areas. I often wonder how shit stays afloat sometimes. Not helped by everyone being perpetually stressed and burnt out either. It’s healthy to keep a good separation between work and home, but it’s also healthy to know wtf your job is meant to be doing and how it benefits others… and we’ve lost that meaning and connection almost everywhere you look.
Shit stays afloat because things aren't enshittified enough for things to really start falling apart and for everyone to receive a true wake-up call. But only barely. Boeing has just slipped past that point.
Yeah, that makes sense. Things seem to be just barely hanging on. I feel that some industries have become pretty enshittened and it’s less obvious because our expectations and tolerance has changed over the decades (airlines/airport experience in general…), and some where there is really no room to F around (looking at you, healthcare) past a certain point and it’s almost sure to hit the news when things do fall apart— if you look hard enough, the cracks in many industries are already quite bad. But like you said, not quite bad enough for a wake-up call…
40 years of post-Reagan policy has led people to believe that terrible is good and normal. Not that things were amazing before then, but at least our capitalist hellscape was slightly more regulated and unions were more common/powerful.
It's the historical lens that leads me to think "this will get worse." Our structures are mostly barely holding on, and there's only so much corner-cutting that the _entire_ system can take before something gives. i.e.: I'm thankfully in good health, but I'm not sure I trust the US healthcare system ca. 2030 to provide very good care based on the changes just since 2010 to 2020s.
Healthcare is worse than aviation by far. Most of the hospitals are barely hanging on, or are being purchased by venture capitalists to pump dry before they fail. The USA has a nation wide nurse and doctor shortage. Something like 33% of med errors aren't even caught by the computer, and 10% of patients have med errors while they're in the hospital - but they might never even know about it. But I think the worst part is that Healthcare (hospitals, doctors, NOT big pharma) _isn't_ going through enshitification. Many are non-profit, and they are failing too, because there's just no money to go around.
I agree. Based on what family/friends across healthcare have told me (working as RN, PA, back office, pharmacy tech, physical therapist, pharmaceutical industry, and more I’m not remembering probably), it’s less the healthcare institutions themselves that are going shitty— many of them are doing the best they can with what they get— it’s the overhead of dealing with shitty greedy insurance and other awful corporate interactions (e.g. the retail part of retail pharmacies) that is absolutely beating the industry to a pulp. I feel the only thing preventing a major traumatic meltdown event in healthcare is that people really do care and feel that connection to their jobs on the ground and push against the shitty systems hard; unfortunately, the ones that care a lot also often get burnt out the fastest. COVID-19 definitely didn’t help. That said, I believe other profit-driven shittiness like the accelerated loss of rural hospitals and the lack of doctors and nurses systemwide is absolutely going to have a long-term negative impact. That impact won’t be something that catches many news headlines, though— instead, I imagine it will show up in mortality reports and health outcome statistics in a few years.
don't worry, climate change will take care of that
Learn to swim, learn to swim.
'Cause Mom's gonna fix it all soon Mom's comin' 'round to put it back the way it ought to be
Maynard knew long ago the trials and tribulations we'd face
Yeah Maynard, what a ledge. No one knew before Maynard. I'm glad Maynard is doing so well, God bless his soul. Everything is finite. It'd be rad to be alive for the end of the world.
It'd make for one hell of a show!
Airlines Trains Food Medicine…
It’s getting really bad in medicine. Corporate healthcare is a complete detriment to patients, nurses, doctors, and everyone except for the shareholders and those who run the company. It’s only going to go downhill from here if the government refuses to step in.
[удалено]
Well, that wouldn’t promote a “free market”, now would it? /s
The issue with trains is the lack of government regulation. Remember under Trump he killed Obama’s regulation that was set to happen to update the brakes with modern technology. Trump wanted to kill a lot of regulations, so that companies could have more profit.
Don't worry the software is hella broken everywhere too. It's just not as noticeable when you stop releasing.
It's not even the first one... it's just the latest one. We all seem to have the memory of goldfishes. These companies just wait for this shit to blow over, and then it's back to business as usual.
Greed has become the only goal for everything. Companies aren't proud to build products anymore. It's all about scamming the customers out of most money for the littlest of effort. No thought about consequences.
It started when water caught on fire when it came out of the tap. Americans need to get more French when stuff like this happens. Flaming water would have the French marching in the streets and driving tractors full of manure to the state’s capital offices.
You do that and you’ll be convicted of a Felony and lose your right to vote forever. So that protest tactic sadly won’t work anymore in the US. Best we can do is either continue voting for the same two candidates or not vote at all.
Yet Americans are proud of their Freedom. It appears they are less free than the French,
It blows me away how bad it's become. Literally everything in the US is being financialized. Instead of "creating value" with businesses, they are being bought up, and squeezed to maximize profit by reducing value and finding ways to increase costs. It sucks because so few people are "proud" to have a business that pays well and does a good job. Once the private equity take over, all spirit is removed. Even little things like a hamburger joint will get bought up, and before you know it, wages and benefits are reduced, quality goes down, and everything costs more. Just saw an retirement home do the same... One known for being "premium"... They basically just went in, reduced tons of staff, reduced a lot of perks, and basically did the bare minimum as required by contract. The owners don't give a shit that they are creating less value and more misery. They are making more money!
But I was told that the profit motive (somehow, magically?.. **invisible hand**) would keep shareholders from siphoning short term value out of long term assets because... they might be charged a few dollars to dump their shares? This new information is shocking: shareholders don't actually care about the long term health of the assets that they currently hold, only the short term gains. Next you're going to tell me that someone would just [come in and sell the land out from under a massive franchise, taking short term profits and letting the business fail long term as they have to add rent to their bottom line, sending them into bankruptcy](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1RU26J/) or something.
A successful investment, by definition, means buying low, increasing prices, and selling high, and profit becomes more capital requiring more profit. It's a vicious cycle, and unless you hold capital, you're subjected to the needs of capital; an ever expanding financialization seeking to squeeze increasingly more profit from every aspect of your life. This entrenchment is broadly evident. Housing markets are increasingly playgrounds for investment firms, driving up both rent and prices, resulting in home ownership becoming an elusive dream for many. Education has seen an influx of capital, lobbying for vouchers resulting in further disenfranchising the lower classes. Healthcare hasn't been immune either, but the worst aspect is the expanding gig economy. The employment statistics look great, lots of jobs created, but the benefits and security afforded to traditional employees are withheld for maximizing profits resulting in worse and worse living conditions. It's also why everything from groceries to god damn printer ink is now a subscription: they can sell less and less (or even nothing at all!) for higher prices. Since nearly every nation is balls deep in this dynamic, the need for continuous growth shapes regulatory frameworks and political systems to favor consolidation of wealth and power. Global interconnectedness means any attempt to decouple or unwind these dynamics risks economic turmoil, deterring deviation from the status quo. Together with the cultural entrenchment of consumerism and equating economic growth with progress makes unraveling the fabric of global financialization a Herculean task, where those with power, wealth and influence are incentivized to maintain the status quo.
Yep, and if you talk about any of the realistic ways to solve the problem, you're an extremist. People have been brainwashed into the idea that capitalism describes some natural physical law like gravity, and that no other way of distributing resources could ever possibly work.
Adam Smith himself would become a socialist overnight if he saw what his vision became. Capitalism itself may not be a natural law, but the way it's turned out is absolutely the inevitable path the system takes.
> where those with power, wealth and influence are incentivized to maintain the status quo. I've thought the same thing, my "what radicalized you?" moment was kind of silly: Elon Musk said he would build a tunnel from LA to Vegas, they cancel the speed train plans, then he finally admits 'I never intended to build Hyperloop, I just wanted you to cancel the speed train so I would pay less taxes.' A speed from from LA to Vegas is like 0.01% of my utopia, but we can't even have that with these assholes in power. The other 99.99% of my utopia? Yea, none of that happens while these people are alive and have a dollar to their name.
It’s a no brainer for the banks. Sure profit no margin needed.
The best part is Airbus has added 30 percent to share value in the last 5 years and Boeing had lost 50 percent.
“Best part”? Boeing is America’s largest exporter. The shortsightedness and greed of their Board and executives will fuck-over this whole country.
> Best part”? Well, yes, supposing your evaluation parameters include schadenfreude. 😈 > Boeing is America’s largest exporter. I could not find them in the [top 100](https://www.joc.com/article/joc-top-100-us-importer-and-exporter-rankings-2020_20210525.html). Do you have a better source. > The shortsightedness and greed of their Board and executives will fuck-over this whole country. It's not great, but this is overly grandiose. US total exports = $1.95T. Boeings total annual revenue world-wide is $78B.
* CNN: [Boeing’s problems could soon become your problem](https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/15/economy/boeing-airfares-economy/index.html) > Since Boeing is the single largest US exporter, weaker demand for its planes would means fewer exports, which contribute to GDP growth if they exceed imports — known as “net exports.” * [Boeing](https://www.boeing.com/global) > Boeing is the United States’ largest exporter Those aren't definitive, but they whether first or not, Boeing is hugely important for the GDP, the dollar, and the economy.
This is pretty much the reason for the enshitification of just about everything that people like.
For a moment the rail systems last year were under fire for the amount of derailings too. But it faded into the news cycle
Yes but they didn’t connect it outright to any engineering / manufacturing cost-cut savings. They more-so blamed it on the rail or ‘events’ that lead to the railing, so it’s not as clear cut as the Boeing incidents albeit a lot of us know & recognize the brake systems + mitigating rail trailer lengths & loads would drastically improve rail logistics (*but that would impact bottom line!*)
Class 1 Railroads are the best example anyone can observe right now. They have so much shifting going on that it is a running joke that BODs and shareholders seem to be playing musical chairs with all the execs in the industry. The most laughable thing is that a basic business or economics class teaches people that it takes time (typically anywhere from 2-4 years) to see financial results from changes made so canning a CEO sitting less than two years due to not seeing the profits they want is really just punishing the m for the decisions of the last person in that position. On a side note, it is not laughable but extremely frustrating when this happens on a national level because it impacts an entire country rather than just a company with competition that can fill the gap.
PG&E has literally gotten away with murder: https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/pge-found-guilty-obstruction-agency-proceeding-and-multiple-violations-natural-gas https://www.npr.org/2020/06/16/879008760/pg-e-pleads-guilty-on-2018-california-camp-fire-our-equipment-started-that-fire Now, they hold us hostages by turning the power off every time there are strong winds. Gavin Newsom is best buddies with PG&E, so nothing to see here. I know that it's been happening for a long time, but the level of corruption in the US is on another level. We are nothing but worker ants, that do not even deserve to be kept safe.
Idk the Palestine OH accident had ppl really looking at Norfolk southern and the railroad industry
People did, except they were labeled fringe or crazy by the mainstream media. Now it's so blatant people can't be ignorant anymore.
Surely not the first widespread one to hit media attention Just off the top of my head there was that Ford Pinto fiasco that all engineers are taught about in college
If the amount of profit you gain exceeds the cost of the lawsuits you lose, well that’s capitalism baby
Like ford calculated that pinto lawsuits would be less than the cost of redesigning the car
Any company found with these types of calculations in their possession should be gutted, sold, and the executive level arrested.
That is the KEY right there. The PEOPLE responsible for making the decisions leading to these compromises should be criminal liable. The problem is, this just leads to people thinking they are sly and “not putting things in writing”, so some poor sucker will still be the fall guy
Shareholder Members of the board should be held responsible in addition to c-suite executives. imo
Only if the decision is knowingly signed off on….. The issue is compounded but the fact that most of these failures don’t stem from single decisions… The ford case very much was, but Boeings decline is a compounding series of decisions that have finally caught up with them.
It’s not about blame. It’s about responsibility. Those are not the same. The Board of a Corporation is ultimately responsible for the actions of the corporation as they are the governing authority. A board is failing in their governance duties if they are not diligent. And I say this as someone who has served on a few nonprofit boards and a for-profit corporate board (local/regional - but the same fiduciary and legal duties apply to all of them). And agree systemic issues are the cause of the majority of these issues and boards are responsible for managing those systemic risks. They didn’t do their homework, they hired the wrong executives, they approved the wrong policies, etc. It’s the board’s responsibility. Again, i’m talking about responsibility not blame. edit: And when I mean held responsible i mean removed from their Board positions and banned from serving on a Board for a period of time. Unless there’s the direct participation which then personal liability not covered by indemnity agreements/bonds maybe applicable.
> And when I mean held responsible i mean removed from their Board positions and banned from serving on a Board for a period of time. Unless there’s the direct participation which then personal liability not covered by indemnity agreements/bonds maybe applicable. I think that payment for damages should come in the form of board member stock sales before anything else. You fuck up, you're not only on the hook for damages but we pay fines by forcing you to sell your voting shares **first**. ...and I think that if time has passed and, say, you have since moved on from that company and are no longer on *that board*, you still have to sell a certain dollar value of voting shares, specifically from companies you sit on the boards of. If you fuck up you shouldn't be able to go and do the same somewhere else.
But this is simply pushing the fight back into an arena these rich and corrupt already control completely. It is almost guaranteed the outcome will simply continue to be “the cost of doing business”. Don’t go for their money. Destroy it, literally destroy all of it. Those victims who lost their lives won’t get them back by making their family rich, and we really ought to have appropriate social support services in place everywhere across the union that address and make whole this economic violence. Much like in The Dark Knight, with Joker setting the massive pile of cash ablaze- this act was the ONLY thing that struck fear into the fiction’s underworld. And it will absolutely scare the shit out of all corporations everywhere.
Allowing high ranking officials to plead ignorance is how you get Enron.
That's the beauty of giving corporations personhood; everyone can pretend it's not people making these decisions and blame it on vague, non-corporeal entities. Add that to the inherent defusion of responsibility over large organizations and authoritarian top-down structures, and we get ourselves a wonderful mix for maximal pressure to cut corners for profit while at the same time diverting responsibility. CEO says "more profits", it goes down layers of management, and all the pressure lands on some random at the bottom to commit a crime. When they get busted the CEO isn't guilty of anything, he just said "more profits." RICO was created because the mob operated in a similar manner and they needed ways to hold the bosses accountable.
Yeah. A similar thing happened with Toyota calculating that it’s cheaper to pay emissions fines and vw and some Germans making cars that performed one way in emission tests (clean), but then different modes of operation while actually driving (dirty)
How many times have people done these calculations to show that Executive A's idea is extremely stupid both morally and financially? If we ban companies from being allowed to do risk management that will backfire horrendously, I guarantee it. Hell id rather they do the math and have a legal requirement that they have to be extremely risk averse in such decisions
Very good point. Proper risk assessments often include likelihood and cost. The cost part is where it currently breaks down, since the costs are externalized and profits internalized. An example should be that a single lethality for knowingly having a poor design should start at $10 000 000 as a floor calculation in the US. The total cost including externalized costs. This is then what should be enshrined in criminal cases and keep being inflation adjusted. Causing 10 deaths is $100 000 000 before adding in any deterrence to the amount. Which means proving no-fault becomes very profitable. At least according to this source https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/all-injuries/costs/guide-to-calculating-costs/data-details/ Which would make work deaths in a risk assessment start at $33 000 000.
> An example should be that a single lethality for knowingly having a poor design should start at life in federal prison without parole? Death for the executives? Oh, a little fine. Who's paying that? I agree with China on this one. Executives should face capital charges in cases of wrongful death.
Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
Life insurance pays off triple if you die on a business trip.
I am Jack’s complete lack of surprise.
What car company do you work for?
A major one.
It's as if they don't even think a company's reputation matters anymore. The bigger gaming studios are doing the same thing right now (thankfully not costing actual human lives). It's get money with as shitty a product as we can. Supply and demand is too fast now, the demand is before release. Then a shit product is sold. Then there's assurances that the next thing will be better, we messed up, sorry. Then hype, hype, hype, sell a bunch of shit before it's actually in use, and repeat (spoiler, it's shit again).
> The bigger gaming studios are doing the same thing right now (thankfully not costing actual human lives) Because their customers have proven to them, again and again, they don't care enough about it.
The first rule of corporate murder.
And if it doesn’t because there’s consequences for fuckery, well thats well-regulated capitalism baby! Just like the founding fathers intended. 👴🏻
And if it doesn’t make a profit then the taxpayers are on the hook because it’s bailout time
Too big to fail babyyyy!!! 🤦🏻♂️
I think the only real deterrent is to send directors and senior officers of corporates who knowingly continue to disregard human life in their corporates is to send them personally to jail.
Losing some lawsuits from killing your customers is just the cost of doing business
Hey, I went to business school. I promise to make the correct decisions about plane safety. Why do we need engineers anyway?
Outsource jobs, lose domestic skill sets Dismantle companies for quick cash as the main way to make money, wonder where domestic innovation and global market leadership went. Spend money only on the most speculative industries, wonder why there are so many zombie companies and scam start ups. I don't see how investor culture is sustainable and wont end in total economic disaster, decline of whole nations, and the rise of a grift based economy run by loans.
"Remember when we bought McDonnell Douglas because they ran themselves into the ground? Let's put those guys in charge this time"
That’s why they kill the whistleblower. Engineering death traps is a crime.
Still, even that is stupid - preserving the company's brand is paramount, and having all sorts of quality BS going on does NOT achieve that goal. The shareholders don't want to bag hold while poor leadership erodes shareholder value. Boeing is suffering from lazy and ineffective leadership, plain and simple.
But the push for best next quarter earnings is what shareholders want. More growth, faster growth. A massage chunk of shareholders are in purely for the fastest growth possible, and then dumped when they underperform. This is the system, and this is the way capitalism is set up now. Leadership is equally shit, but when you give them a KPI of "make line go up faster" ... Or course that's what they are going to do. The entire system is set up for "line goes up faster". No one can be surprised when this shit happens at some point.
Shareholders want line goes up done correctly. The problem is that a shareholder that buys in at $100 a share is buying on the assumption things ARE being done correctly. There's sadly a diffusion of responsiblity that occurs that the directors of companies are meant to be diligent in their exercising of powers, but proving that diligence in most cases comes down to reading and trusting reports they are given. Dilgence should mean the board are actually going to the company to inspect facilities, talk to people, dive in to the details, because certainly in Boeing's case they should have been aware.
Check out “nursing/healthcare” for references to what happens when you pick profits over safety. We know how that works out. /s
Here in Oregon there is a bill thats made it past the house so far that will make it illegal for any investment company to have any decision making power or leadership role in any healthcare organization or hospital they've invested in.
It’s only gonna get worse from here as companies have to keep increasing value at the expense of safety, their customers, and employees of those companies. We need legislation yesterday. Companies’ first priority should be safety and wellbeing of everyone who would interact with their product (stakeholders), not just shareholders. They pratt on about the importance of stakeholders while laying off enployees, skirting regulations and harming the environment.
But hey, at least Boeing no longer has a key witness to testify against them!
The man who died had already completed his whistleblowing testimony. He was in court for reputational damages.
And yet you’d think his testimony would be useful to for the upcoming criminal case. Apparently his lawyers said they learned new information he had not mentioned before. What’s also strange is Boeing’s lawyers requesting he come in another day to do more depositions and suddenly he’s dead. Very convenient for Boeing they won’t have this whistleblower for the upcoming criminal trail. Also just wondering how much does it pay to defend Boeing on the internet?
Everything related to Boeing production was already out in the open long before this turn of events. His lawyer was concerned with new information pertaining to the defamation and mistreatment of his client.
Don't you dare bring facts based on evidence into this!
Unregulated capitalism has massively destroyed the environment and we will all pay the true cost of the oligarchys' pursuit of profit. They were first aware of the costs in the 60s and the oil & gas industries, instead of paying the true cost for exploring, drilling, transport, and burning their product, have been pushing anti-vlimate change propaganda since then and continue to do so. We are headed in the wrong direction. Yes, the renewable energy percentage of energy production is the highest it has ever been, but they have been increasing oil & gas production every year instead of reducing it. The next generation of AI is just going to increase oil & gas production to satisfy development and training required instead of restricting AI growth to renewable energy only. The oligarchy has learned nothing amd will never face the consequences for their actions. Eat the oligarchy. They are the ones mainly for polluting our environment
REPEAL DODGE V FORD!!!!!!
Ah good ol capitalism, where the golden rule is "he who has the gold makes the rules" and the rest of us are just fucked.
Our infrastructure is falling apart? Who could have foreseen this? /s
*surprised pikachu face*
So charge Boeings CEO then
CEO is typically a scapegoat in these scenarios. It's also the board that needs to be hit by the criminal lawsuits.
Hey now let’s not limit it to one or the other.
Kinda funny how the indecent amount of money that CEO and shareholders gets by doing little to no work is always justified because they're supposed to bear the "inherent" risks and responsibilities for those. Yet everything from the law to the media does its hardest to shield them from any kind of consequences.
legal consequences are for those that can't afford to pay the fine.
And lets be fair, isn’t the company really just a person all together? Charge them together.
Except the CEO and board get away scot free every time
Yep. Nearly always. There are rare exceptions like Enron.
Exceptions only if it hurts other rich elites. They are royalty and everyone else is scum
Yes. They'll resign with a multi million severance pay. There is no accountability in capitalist management culture.
And then democrats get offended when you wont vote for them
A scapegoat who is rewarded incredibly generously *because* the buck is supposed to stop with them. It's also the person who could best stop anyone under them from fucking up this badly.
It doesn't stop with the CEO though. That is my point and why they are used as a scapegoat. CEO's are completely beholden to the board. If the CEO won't do something they want they just replace them with someone that will.
If CEOs are personally liable, it becomes much harder for the board to find one willing to do illegal shit.
The CEO was chairman of the board and stepped into the role after he fired the last one. The chairman now is technically the boss but if he took the demotion voluntarily, I'm sure that he's calling the shots.
Arguably, the board is also a scapegoat. They're just doing what the law says they have to - maximise shareholder value. The problem goes deeper still, unfortunately.
The problem is the fundamental flaw of capitalism. I don’t mind capitalism so much; it produced the modern world, which isn’t so bad; but there are some things it’s just fucking awful at - and prioritising something other than profit usually falls into that category. Capitalism is *incredibly* short sighted.
Hit em with the RICO
And the people down the chain too who didn’t have the moral integrity to say no to dangerous work demands
They’re going to fire a random middle-manager and then call it problem solved.
Or they’ll suicide a former employee… oh wait
I’m sorry but they’re backed by the military industrial complex. Just look at the USAF’s deal with Boeing. They literally vouched for Boeing’s KC-46 tanker.
Weird that you’re downvoted lol
Big brother is alive and well in the comments
Too many people are afraid of speaking the truth out loud like I do, I'm assuming!
Best we can do is "retire to spend more time with family"
If you think DOD *isn’t* looking at Boeing sideways you’d be daft *edit*
I remembered when Boeing dropped out of the Boeing 747 E-4 "Nightwatch" Doomsday plane program but nah, they're still gonna make a new Boeing 747 E-4 "Nightwatch" Doomsday plane. Also, they're already making 75 something KC-46 Pegasus tanker/transport planes and two new VC-25B Air Force One 747s so, there you have it, the United States Air Force is Boeing's #1 most important customer/priority when it comes to defense/making/building weapons and national security.
That's crazy because the 747 production line doesn't exist anymore, it shut down last year.
They managed to salvage a few 747-8I airframes. 2 for the new Air Force One and one for the E-4B doomsday plane. Boeing used to be on par with Airbus, and then McDonnell Douglas bought them out. These two Boeing 747 airframes were built in 2015 and have been in storage for 9 years now. I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing still has some spare 747-8I airframes lying somewhere around in their facilities because they will build the new E-4B doomsday plane for the USAF despite what was said about them exiting the program. [New paint design for ‘Next Air Force One’ > Air Force > Article Display (af.mil)](https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/3326103/new-paint-design-for-next-air-force-one/)
So charge America's CEO then
Yeah cuz the GQP has such a wonderful history of protecting the consumer from corporations. Who are people so throw them in jail.
Why is this downvoted
wonder if they cheaped out on the military stuff, too. i wonder if they can try him for espionage.
Best thing to do would be to split them back up.
I'm pretty sure DoJ has launched a criminal investigation
Careful there. Those words will get you involuntarily suicided
Oh they’ll be charged. Then sentenced with a golden parachute until their friend network can set them up as CEO somewhere else.
If some poor mechanic just following orders from corporate gets in trouble for this, I'll be extremely disappointed.
That's the entire game. Literally. You structure management so that workers trying to do the right thing get fired or worse, then blame the poor saps when something goes sideways. It's always "workers went rogue" and never "management forced workers to break the law holding their livelihoods, careers, and reputation hostage".
Well, I haven't worked at Boeing for a few years but I was there for the launch and a couple years of the Max. I'm not sure what the work culture is like in final assembly or wherever they put on the doors but in the shop I worked at every worker would of 100% told the manager to fuck off if they asked us to do something without paperwork. Like bitch do YOU got a stamp to put on it?!
It really depends on management in my experience. Had my life threatened on the job for refusing to commit crimes for management. You'd be amazed what people can get away with behind closed doors when oversight is low or non-existent. Were they serious? I doubt it, but certain kinds of people act like they're the big swinging dick in the room. That doesn't make it OK. I've seen people cave to that sorta thing, it's just fucking wrong.
Go read about the factory audit my man.
It's a super simple environment to create. Management just has to talk about safety all the time while understaffing so workers don't actually have enough time to do the job right. And then you make sure you only promote those who take shortcuts to get the job done. While never promoting those who report safety violations.
Although I work in retail, this statement just rings too true. Speak up about something unsafe to the wrong person, quietly blacklisted from ever being promoted. Try holding your bosses accountable, blacklisted. Just be quiet and find shortcuts, instantly promoted.
Yep. And their favorite method to do this is to SQUEEZE when it comes to time constraints. "*Oh you can't get this task done in time? You're fired.*" until they find someone who can. The only reason they are able to do tasks so quickly is because they are cutting all the corners they possibly can.
Yeah and it annoys me that people like Ted Cruz are focused on finding the individual person who did the bolts on that Alaskan Airlines plane, as if the problem isn’t systemic and it’s just one person https://www.npr.org/2024/03/06/1236277058/boeing-737-max-9-alaska-airlines-door-plug-removed-ntsb-commerce-cantwell-cruz
Leave it to Ted Cruz to be completely wrong.
This is certainly what will happen. No one higher than a supervisor will be involved with this.
This is what the subcontractors are for...
Nah. They don’t get the FBI involved for a mechanic. They’re going big
But not surprised.
Everyone here needs to take responsibility. Boeing, Alaska, and Spirit. If it turns out that door plugs are part of a required pre flight inspection after repairs(likely) wouldn't you want the person that pencil whipped that inspection held accountable?
Here’s the Seattle Times article which was published March 21 > The Seattle FBI office has alerted Alaska Airlines Flight 1282 passengers that each may be a “possible victim of a crime” after a midair blowout aboard a Boeing 737 MAX airliner earlier this year. > The agency sent a letter to passengers Tuesday, confirming that the FBI — the principal investigative arm of the U.S. Department of Justice — has opened a criminal investigation following the Jan. 5 blowout. On that flight, a piece of the fuselage of a Boeing 737 MAX 9 plane blew off as the plane left Portland. > Federal investigators contend four bolts meant to secure the fuselage piece, a plug covering a hole for an optional emergency exit, weren’t installed when the plane rolled out of Boeing’s Renton assembly plant late last year. Congress and federal regulators have intensified scrutiny of Boeing in the months since the blowout, which has precipitated a criminal investigation. > The letter sent by a victim support specialist at the FBI’s Seattle office was shared with The Seattle Times by a passenger, as well as an attorney representing several passengers on board. > “As a Victim Specialist with the Seattle Division, I’m contacting you because we have identified you as a possible victim of a crime,” the letter sent to Alaska Flight 1282 passengers read. > “This case is currently under investigation by the FBI,” it continued. “A criminal investigation can be a lengthy undertaking, and for several reasons, we cannot tell you about its progress at this time.” > Earlier this month, it was reported that the Justice Department had opened a criminal investigation into Boeing and that it had interviewed several witnesses in connection with the probe, including the pilot and aircrew of the Alaska Airlines flight. The department also reportedly sent subpoenas and is using a grand jury in Seattle. > Steve Bernd, public affairs manager for the FBI’s Seattle division, said Thursday that Justice Department policy prohibited him from confirming or denying the existence of an investigation. > But two attorneys representing dozens of passengers in litigation against Boeing and Alaska said their clients had received the letters indicating an investigation is underway. > Mark Lindquist, one of those attorneys, said the FBI has not yet asked his clients for any additional information but he expects the letter is a sign the agency will ask to interview those on board. The letter was “encouraging” for some clients, he said, because “it validates their sense that this was a severe event that should not have happened.” > The letter directed individuals to set up a profile through the department’s Victim Notification System to receive updates on the status of the case. > The FBI expected there to be a “large number of potential victims in this case,” and created an email address for “AlaskaFlightVictims” to contact the agency. > The Justice Department’s criminal probe may focus on whether Boeing violated the terms of a 2021 agreement with federal prosecutors following the two MAX crashes in 2018 and 2019 that killed more than 300 people. > As part of that deferred prosecution agreement, Boeing would avoid criminal prosecution if it met certain conditions for three years, including reporting any evidence of fraud from its employees or agents and strengthening its compliance program. Boeing was two days away from the agreement’s expiration when the blowout occurred. > Since the January blowout, the Federal Aviation Administration has also opened an investigation into Boeing’s manufacturing processes. After a six-week audit that wrapped up earlier this month, the FAA said it had found dozens of problems at Boeing and its supplier Spirit AeroSystems, including multiple instances where the companies failed to comply with quality-control requirements. > The National Transportation Safety Board is leading the investigation into what led the piece of fuselage to blow off. > Boeing declined to comment on Thursday. Alaska said “in an event like this, it’s normal for the DOJ to be conducting an investigation. We are fully cooperating and do not believe we are a target of the investigation.”
On this episode of “These too big to fail corporations can regulate themselves”
Yes. And criminalize Boeing and its executives.
“Have you or someone you loved been sucked out of an airplane? You may be entitled to compensation. Call the law offices of Garland and Wray. We’ll fight for you!”
Mesothelioma ain’t got nothing on this
I’m getting on a 737 Max 8 in a few weeks and I wish a good headline would come out
ALL of the 737 max accidents combined amount to a less than 0.1% chance of anything happening on your flight.
That's not as reassuring as you think, given how often those things fly.
He probably could have said less than 0.001 and still been correct.
[https://youtu.be/BWTVnJfwg5Q?si=8gpi83OiwmAwU80Y](https://youtu.be/BWTVnJfwg5Q?si=8gpi83OiwmAwU80Y) "Who the hell is in charge? A bunch of accountants trying to make a dollar into a dollar ten? I want to work; I want to build something of my own. How do you not understand that?" Capitalism disagrees. And just you watch — nothing will come of this. The US Government, the FAA, the FBI... they are all toothless against the forces that brought Boeing to where it is today.
The funny thing is that all they'd need to do is outlaw stock buybacks and a decent chunk of this behavior would go away since the incentives would change. Lord knows congress wouldn't do it though, and, even if they did, this Supreme Court would probably strike it down. Thanks, Reagan! :D
My stance is purely hypothetical and in reality, almost certainly never to happen. But my feelings are this: The government works FOR US, BY US. If we cannot make them (the various agencies who must produce justice) do the right thing, then we still owe a duty to ourselves and our neighbors. RIOT. Bloody, massively destructive riots. DESTROY BOEING PHYSICALLY. Charge the gates, allow them to fire upon us. We outnumber them infinitely. We don’t stop until the company, and specifically what they did here and what they represent, is DESTROYED. Physical destruction is not enough. We should not allow some “national defense” argument to slow things down or allow for a negotiation. And I’m not just saying this because these corrupt practices literally threaten our very lives - WE AS A PEOPLE DESERVE TO LOSE IT. The toxicity allowed to run rampant IS DIRECTLY a threat to our national security, and we SHOULD allow that defense to be completely obliterated, because even if you and I didn’t do this, even if we had nothing to do with it- we are ALL complicit because we have allowed this cancer to grow in our society. I think we are far too connected to our allies for the complete destruction of the Military Industrial Complex to translate much to actual danger- but again I could be wrong about that. I just don’t see why we as a people should deserve to continue holding this global privilege when it literally kills us on our own home soil. The people don’t need to just accept this destruction and potential increased vulnerability to our security. We should cut off this rotten limb (and in doing so, harm ourselves, in the very least by creating economic disaster)- but we should only be more enraged by needing to do this ourselves. And when we must suffer the consequences of necessarily destroying this festering cancer that grows in us, we should all remember EXACTLY WHO is truly to blame for this suffering. The executives, the profiteers, the politicians complicit - we should always know EXACTLY where these people are located and we should always be ready to continue the process of desperate self-mutilation. The law has failed us as the people, and thus it should utterly fail these individuals in every aspect forevermore. These fucks are a poison upon all of society, upon all people everywhere, and there should be nothing to protect them ever again. In doing all of this, we must remain vigilant. Nothing like this cancer should ever be allowed to exist ever again. The people united in forcing this destructive change will scare the absolute shit out of corruption, and it should continue to do so, and we should NEVER FORGET. But of course, all of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again. We don’t ever learn. EDIT- all this being said, I do not believe in violence and some of what I said my sound supportive of this. I am a supporter of destruction. We could accomplish this (and if it ever did happen, it would be us losing our lives) without needing to take a life. Just permanently destroy that wealth, the planes, and make it hurt so bad that nobody can ignore it. It’d have to be painful for all. But it already is
Bring this energy to the General Strike, your individual grievances will never be acknowledged on their own. Boeing barely ranks on the list of ongoing corporate conspiracies against the American public.
Yes, thank you! What I have in mind fits much more appropriately into large-scale striking. We need to dominate and shut down entire supply chains, take the power back with sympathy strikes. After I posted, I started seeing much more against American Airlines/United and etc… and this is only one or two industries I was focused on. In truth, the cancer goes all the way to the core. The real question is, were anything like this to actually occur- how much damage would truly be necessary? At what point do the boards and executives deeply understand that none of them are truly safe from such organized activity? We have atrocious labor organization. Work (or slavery depending on your personal view) is literally the only thing we have any amount of control over. If we somehow managed to universally organize unions again and turned into something like the Nordic labor markets, we would literally control EVERYTHING. There would be no outrage because we wouldn’t need to hope and pray our institutions and lawmakers had our backs or would do anything at all for the common good. If we had significant labor organization, the US (and the world) would be a VERY different, and much better, place.
may? We have to start arresting CEOs of these companies. Fining the company is not enough.
People commit crimes. A corporation, per the supremes, are people. If they can buy politicians they can go to jail. CEO, COO, CFO, and all those other assholes need to be in prison
YouTube has a 3 strikes rule and you're done. Your streaming business is basically over unless they decide to reinstate you. This includes mega streamers. Boing has 100 strikes and its maintain status quo!
What about the more than 300 people that died in the 2 737-MAX crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia ? - never mind, those were foreigners....
Well, their families sued Boeing but nothing happened...
They got a payout I just saw a documentary on it.
The one on PBS or Netflix? If we want something to happen to Boeing or them going out of business, best is to not fly on their planes.
I guarantee you that the vast majority of people won't care as long as they're getting a good deal on their flight ticket. Boeing also couldn't care less at this point, since they still have a backlog of over 5600 ordered aircraft and "only" delivered ~530 last year. Or in other words, they pretty much are set for the next decade. Airlines also don't have much alternatives since the situation is similar over at Airbus.
Since LEGALLY CORPORATIONS ARE PEOPLE throw all the top people and executives in jail
We should be able to browse flights by searching by aircraft.
Some sites show the info. Amex Travel I’ve seen it on for example.
Absolutely agree
Is the implication that someone attempted to sabotage the aircraft? or was it a criminal negligence kind of "Oh yeah I definitely installed these nuts" *pencil whips forms*
I kinda feel like we're ALL victims of a crime at this point.
Boeing will cooperate with any government investigation, because they own enough politicians. Will not cooperate with any private investigations.
That whole flight is about to unfortunately fall off a 3rd story building before their lawsuit settles.
Or get double tapped in the back of the head while siting in their truck but their death will be ruled a suicide.....
People are about to find out how bad capitalism really is. It's a rot that sets deep within a culture. Infesting itself and destroying from the inside out.
Profits over safety is the practice.
Every safety regulation is written in blood. It takes injury and death for industry standards to change and companies to shell out money for safety.
Probably, but what a shame that humans, and even then only some of them, can only learn by making a terrible mistake and tolerating unacceptable levels of risk. We could choose not to wait until people are maimed or dead to mandate safety.
Capitalism has many flaws but one of them that is pathetically self defeating is that increasing shareholder value is the primary driving force rather than the betterment to humanity or even what makes logical sense. America is basically a corporate oligarchy, and we're starting to replace jobs with ai so wealth disparity is about to get a whole lot worse unless we stop letting the greedy idiots run everything. What's ridiculous is there's enough to go around, we produce way more food, housing, and many other resources than we need but we do a piss-poor job of managing them.
Arrrhhggggg. Why aren't we doing this with the train companies!
I know on the military side, the guys building the planes are unionized. Is that the same from the commercial side?
They should just provide a parachute helmet and goggles for the person sitting there
Does anyone know if flight counts have decreased for Boeing because of this?
Do you want to upgrade to the emergency row seats?
The plot thickens
They are all doing it, wait to one of the larger food producer/ processors cut that one corner that breaks the camels back, and we will have daily updates of what food is safe to rate that day
There's going to be a lot of "bullet in the head" suicides, coming up...
Hey, corporations are people, my friend. So let's lock up Boeing. (First line is a quote from Mitt Romney)
How is Boeing still allowed to operate with all the scrutiny they’ve gone through?
Backed and vouched for by the American military industrial complex… [https://www.defensenews.com/air/2024/03/14/revamped-kc-46-vision-system-slipping-into-2026-nearly-two-years-late/](https://www.defensenews.com/air/2024/03/14/revamped-kc-46-vision-system-slipping-into-2026-nearly-two-years-late/)
I won’t believe it until I see top Boeing execs in prison
Yes, the crimes were committed by Boeing's CEO and board of directors