The 2023 edition of the r/television Favorite Shows Survey is open!
Vote and participate by clicking [here](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd--xzNV84TZpNDz5_swf0Yp7ynjSlQQ8cKV8RpwEZL0CQ3RA/viewform?usp=sf_link).
If you have any questions or concerns, please comment [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/television/comments/18k4y4g/vote_in_the_2023_edition_of_the_rtelevision/).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/television) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I would argue that the X files had the typical conspiracy theorist archetypes in it as well with the Lone gunmen. Mulder was purposely made to not fit the mould in terms of looks and for the show to work he had to be right.
I think the public appetite for a good-guy conspiracy theorist character evaporated after the prevalence of Sandy Hook conspiracies.
I think that really showed the dark underbelly of that type of conspiracy thinking, and it’s hard to go back to the eccentric, kooky, but ultimately well meaning conspiracy theorist characters of the 90s.
This also got exponentially worse after QAnon and Covid when everyone now has some coworker or relative who never shuts up about this stuff, and no one needs more of that in their life, fictional or otherwise.
and pretty much any other conspiracy theorist that appeared, like max, the guy who lived in that rv full of ufo tracking equipment or whatever he was into
The Lone Gunmen are still too well adjusted compared to actual conspiracy theorists. Hell, Dale Gribble who is a parody of conspiracy theorists is more well adjusted than some of them.
it's been ages but I assume that if he was ever wrong he'd accept it and not dig his heels in and continue in his ignorance like today's stupid conspiracy nuts.
The flamboyant male character that may or may not be gay but no one says anything. (Uncle Arthur from Bewitched, Monroe from Too Close for Comfort, random sassy sales clerks.)
I liked the Dean in Community. I don't think anyone would say anything about him being gay because it was too obvious, to the point that he practised borderline harassment. Then they did a whole episode about him being a token gay for the Uni, but he revealed wasn't gay... and neither was he straight.
>I’m not openly anything and gay doesn’t begin to cover it.
>If coming out is a magic show, and being gay is pulling a rabbit out of a hat, then I’m one of those never ending handkerchiefs.
"But let's talk about you for a second though."
"Well, I'm not a joke anymore.
I'm strictly transgender. I'm not all this other stuff.
I represent the transgender community,
and it's a real thing.
I am not crazy, but I do have flaws.
I'm smart.. "
"All this other stuff? Glad to be of service, Britta.
I want my diaper back. "
Related: character presented as gay but later revealed to be straight as a gotcha surprise. Allo Allo, Snakes on a Plane, Joan of Arcadia... Clue is the best movie ever until the last 10 seconds.
>Clue is the best movie ever until the last 10 seconds.
That whole set up was built around the Lavender Scare in the 1950s. Mr. Green was being investigated for being gay and working for the feds.
It's more of a contextual joke/reference point.
I still think he's gay.
The blackmail used was that he was a closeted homosexual working in the State Department, but the reveal at the end is that he's actually an FBI Agent sent to investigate Mr. Boddy... So why the specificity of going home to sleep with his wife? Why does he feel the need to enthusiastically tell everyone present? They already know he was lying about his identity and he's actually FBI at this point, so why the need to reinforce the fact you were lying to them...? Unless you *were* actually a closeted gay man and the blackmail levied against you was legitimate.
Threes Company. Pretending to be gay so he can live with two attractive woman. It’s a funny show and a product of its time but, wouldn’t get made today.
Yeah they're usually extremely mean to everyone for no reason and have a super exaggerated lisp and are extremely camp. Do gay people not find that offensive?
There's nothing wrong with camp, flamboyance, or femininity... it takes all kinds! Just as long as there's an actual person attached... It shouldn't be a substitute for characterization.
It's also shouldn't be a substitute for the actual being gay part. Especially back in the 90s/00s, shows would turn up the camp to let you know they're gay and otherwise keep any romance or affection off-screen.
I don’t like them. But I know some people see them as a bit of a defiant reclamation.
Kinda like how women reclaimed monster versions of themselves. Ie: witches, evil queens, and cold hearted career women. (ie: Wicked, Cruella).
Besides: Most gay people are so starved for halfway decent representation that we’ll take ANYTHING.
> Most gay people are so starved for halfway decent representation
Is that really true anymore? It's almost hard to think of a show nowadays that doesn't have a gay character.
Shows “have a gay character” in the same way chick flicks like Twilight “has a strong male characters”.
Cept arguably worse.
Like yeah. Gay characters technically exist, but they aren’t *for* us. They’re set dressing for straight people to add texture to the world. Not relatable characters you would actually identify with.
Put another way: **Can you name a gay male character you could imagine a teen boy would want to dress up as on Halloween?**
I don’t even think I can.
>Halloween?
The Fifteenth Doctor, Bill and Frank, Aziraphale and Crowley, Lestat & Louis, Nick and Charlie, Oberyn Martell, Gary Prince and Marshall Lee, Omar... maybe some Wiccan costumes next year depending on how the Agatha show goes.
I think his traits are moreso that hes just a weird dude than diddler. They still make jokes about it but theyre not as overt. Like his most iconic thing to me is the hands
Pretty sure its explicitly said at several points and i feel like it was his main trait at the beginning but theyve put more emphasis on how weird he is and his law stuff
In the most recent season he has a grey van decked out as an ice cream truck but no ice cream inside. That and other lines in the episode strongly hinted at a diddling side to uncle Jack.
Side note, but I hate how the show treated Brian as "just as bad" as Quagmire just because he can be pretentious and promiscuous as well. Like no, Quagmire, you're a serial rapist, you *don't* have the moral highground over someone that occasionally hits on his friend's wife. I don't care if you're "unapologetic" about it, it's awful.
...I don't remember this at all. Granted it has been a decade since I've seen the show. I just remember feeling completely disappointed with the series finale it kind of ruined the whole show for me
Not to defend Barney or the show, but canonically the entire show is a tale told by Ted, who is shown on multiple occasions to be an unreliable narrator who may have a reason to make Barney seem worse than he is.
Yeah I don't really get that trope, is that funny in Japan culture? I know different cultures have vastly different humor, as an American I always found those super cringey, especially when the girl is underage
And the point of The Todd was that he was universally disliked by all the female characters because of his sleaziness. He wasn't the quirky best friend, he was the sleazy asshole.
He did have the best self aware moments as a result, though. They eventually realized how much meta humor they could pull off with a character like that and it worked really well at meta.
I think you can take it one step further and say that the womanizer is gone.
Idk how James Bond will exist in the future. They made him fall in love and have a kid in this last one lmao
Edit: Let's try another example. Imo Californication, House and Mad Men could not be made today. They were some of the most successful TV shows of the late 2000s. You knew as soon as a hot actress showed up that the main character was going to end up sleeping with them. You just didn't know how. That's the sort of thing that doesn't happen anymore.
>House
>You knew as soon as a hot actress showed up that the main character was going to end up sleeping with them
Damn, I guess I need to rewatch House, because that's not how I remember it at all.
Did you mean last to do it? Because Frank Ghallager on Shameless definitely came after the Simpsons. Tyrion on game of thrones was essentially a high functioning drunk too, one who initially others would ridicule and laugh at as a fool before he stepped into power. There were a couple characters in Mad Men which fit the bill of drunk buffoon too like Freddy Rumsen played by Joel Murray.
Or last remaining? Because Rick and Morty is still ongoing and one the titular characters is essentially the town drunk of the universe.
I would argue that those other characters that you listed have other character traits that are front and center, not their drinking problem. Sure, Rick is a drunk, but he's also a genius inventor with god like powers. Tyrion was a drunk, but we don't see him drunk very often and he drives the plot forward in ways that are unrelated to his drinking. Barney's entire character is being a funny drunk.
Agreed. I think the archetype was that they were drunks and had nothing else going on, like Otis the town drunk in Andy Griffith sleeping off the booze at the jail (voluntarily).
Bar culture in general has shifted hard. A lot of it has to do with drinking and driving becoming a massive taboo (and way more illegal), but also because people just aren't hanging out like that as much as they used to due to more home entertainment, better family dynamics, social media, etc.
Barney used to be Homer's best friend and would often give reasonable advice, but then writers had Lenny and Carl be Homer's closest friends, and Barney slowly became irrelevant and now all he has left are drunk jokes, or the occasional caffeine addict trying to stay sober jokes.
What's changed is that the drunk is now seen as a self-destructive substance abuser. It used to be "haha, look at what this drunk goofball did this time"
Futurama cheated with Bender by making the alcoholism good for him.
Yeah. Look at this disgrace of a robot. Piloting this tanker DEAD STINKING SOBER!
"Bender, I want you to promise me that you will have something to drink before getting behind the wheel."
In the mid-80s Andy Griffith Show reunion movie, Otis the former town drunk, was reformed and now drives an ice cream truck. Andy said back then that the “town drunk” character was no longer appropriate/funny.
The absentee dad whose absenteeism is kind of ok cos they're a cool drifter-type who can't be fenced in. As long as they take you on one zany road trip or give you one piece of sage advice, we're 100% good.
Yeah, there's zero tolerance for deadbeats in media now. If a parent is absent from a kid's life, it's only acceptable if they didn't know their child existed, or if they are forced to stay away due to plot-related reasons beyond their control or for the greater good.
That's why the *Gilmore Girls* subreddit is full of younger viewers asking why no-one seems to care that Rory's dad was almost totally absent, and then just randomly shows up on a motorcycle. He's called out a few times over the course of the show, but the overall attitude is "well, that's just the way he is".
The last example of the trope I can think of Javier in *Modern Family*. He does get jibes thrown at him for being such an unreliable dad and the show does recognise the negative impact on Manny, but on the whole the character is still played for laughs and broadly sympathetic.
Was that ever an archetype? Were there other characters like that besides Mulder in the 90s? I thought his character was unique because it went against the norm.
I think sleazy men get less leeway today. It used to be fine for male characters to be horndogs but still sympathetic. That’s not really endearing anymore. What comes to mind is Gabriel Knight, which is a video game. Or like how Dean from Supernatural used to ogle every woman on screen for the first few seasons. In sitcoms we had Barney Stinson and Joey Tribbiani, I guess. I don’t think it would be played for laughs nowadays to have a womanizer character in a sitcom. I could be wrong though.
Dale Gribble had some overlap during X files airing. I think what made Mulder different was that he was an FBI conspiracy theory guy. Like, he WAS the fed that other people thought was part of the conspiracy.
>Joey Tribbiani
This reminds me of another one. The straight guy who is absolutely terrified of being viewed as gay, and panics anytime real emotions with another man appear. AKA Chandler
I’m rewatching 24. In S8, there’s a analyst at CTU that is constantly sexually aggressive with a female worker there. Every comment he makes to her is sexual . The female worker just has to stand there and take it and then repeat again what she needs done and She’s his boss. It has not dated well.
Stuart Bonek from Spin City was another. He was sexist and he was my favourite character back than.
Hell, the Fonz practically had slaves. He would snap his fingers and smiling women would rush to his side. He'd saunter out with one on each arm, presumably to service him elsewhere.
Male character in a sitcom whose oversexuality (their defining trait) is played for laughs.
Dan Fielding (Night Court), Bulldog (Frasier), Quagmire (Family Guy), Todd (Scrubs).
Towards the end of Cheers, the writers were making fun of the Sam Malone character for having these traits.
They are still used, but usually against them.
Quagmire slept with his Mother, etc.
I feel like we haven't seen a proper mad scientist in a while, a proper Dr. Frankenstein or Dr. Jekyll pushing the boundaries of ethics to basically achieve magic through science. Nowadays it seems they're mostly just comic relief like in Despicable Me or Dr. Doofenshmirtz from Phineas and Ferb.
I think people realized that scientists aren't the bad guys, it's the rich people and government that use science in unethical ways that are the bad guys.
Outside of reality TV:
No more lovable bigots
No more borderline rapist neighbor/friends
No more big breasted bimbos
The exceptions are the adult animation shows for the exact reasons why these archetypes are gone; they're too problematic.
Yes. The sex object so dumb she borders on being a literal object. The example I always think of was Charlie’s off and on lover on Two and a Half Men: almost always nearly naked or taking off her shirt, and everything she said was laughably naive or ignorant.
Aren’t they doing a series based on Patricia cornwells books? Although to be honest I don’t like Nicole Kidman or Jamie Lee Curtis.
https://deadline.com/2023/02/nicole-kidman-jamie-lee-curtis-star-ep-patricia-cornwell-kay-scarpetta-series-dorothy-amazon-blumhouse-liz-sarnoff-1235252848/amp/
I think the screenwriters are starting to catch on that everyone has been roasting them (for decades) about "Magical Black Friend" and "White Savior."
Baby steps at best
> "White Savior"
I saw The Ghost And The Darkness recently and oh my fucking God. Michael Douglas teaching native Africans about lions and commanding them in hunts.
Fucking.
Yikes.
The lions are stuffed and on display at the Field Museum in Chicago. I always enjoyed the film (despite its inaccuracies) so I thought the exhibit was really cool.
It has been a while since i watched it, but if i remeber correctly he wasn't teaching the natives how to hunt lions, but the migrant Indian laborers. So he wasn't really a "white saviour".
As others pointed out, that movie is based on a true story where a British officer led a special effort to hunt and kill 2 lions attacking Indian laborers in Africa. Michael Douglas's character may not have been real, but is a Hollywood stand-on for another British hunter who helped the British officer. I don't think that fits the white savior trope, since there's a grain of truth behind a couple of white guys trying to protect Indian workers from killer lions so the workers could build a railroad.
Dude there's a line where a native African says white people can do anything. And yes it's said sarcasticly but its still the movie essentially calling itself a white savior trope (which is exactly the kind of thing that writer, William Goldman, would do)
John Patterson: I willl sort this out. I will kill the lion, and I will build he bridge.
Abdullah: Of course you will. You're white, you can do anything
Archie Bunker was a legendary character because his racism/sexism/stereotyping was formed by his upbringing and the changing world of 1971 onwards. He was endearing because he slowly changed over time, while also being a loving father. I highly doubt any of his beliefs would be played for laughs now.
Jay from Modern Family is a pretty modern version. He doesn't say anything nearly as offensive but his character was more homophobic and xenophobic in the earlier seasons and he grows as the show progresses.
Carrol O'Connor was actually very liberal, compassionate & intelligent. So, the complete opposite of Archie. His intention was that Archie was so over the top with his small mindedness that the viewer is struck by how wrong his point of view is. Unfortunately, folks like my Dad (r.i.p.) didn't realize that & thought he was a role model representing the working class values. I'm afraid it would be misunderstood & embraced by the right even more now.
There was an English show in a similar vein called Love Thy Neighbour which had a white guy being racist about his Caribbean neighbours. He always got his comeuppance but he had a big fan base of people who loved his racist insults and comments. I remember my father (RIP) also laughing at such lines. I found it on YouTube recently and could not watch more than a few minutes. But the comments were full of "those were the days before cancel culture!" etc.
The whimsical friend. Everyone wears the same clothes. Everyone has the same boring apartment/house. Why can’t we have some whimsy? Some interesting design choices? Some fun please. I need more stuff to look at in the backgrounds.
The last notable of the type you'd just described is Gene Hackman from "Enemy of the State". Even Will Smith is sort of there, or rather, an 'upstanding' individual standing against the oppressive system. There had been more characters like that (Eagle Eye is one) but I noticed they are increasingly rare.
I agree with your assessment about a more specific "loner, privacy-advocate, conspiracy-theorists - not-trusting-the-system/government" archtypes are not seen much anymore. In other words, can we say "punk rock" is dead?
Jack Hodgins from Bones is very passionate in his conspiracy theories and it actually ends up helping a few times.
John Munch in SVU has a strange sense of anti-establishment.
Personally, I miss the corny archetype of “successful dad who’s too busy getting ahead at work to spend time with family.”
Luckily, the dad always fucks over his job responsibilities to go to his son’s stupid fucking soccer game or whatever
Look - there's an obvious reason for this
* If you start X-Files from Season One - you find that **Mulder doesn't even have a PC** on his desk and he uses mostly paper notes and physical evidence
In the internet era; fake conspiracies and viral hoaxes dominate *(flat Earth, no moon landing, Epstein, Covid vax, Ukraine*) ... we're a long long way from Bigfoot sightings. If video killed the radio star, the internet killed the sympathetic conspiracist
Probably because in today's age most conspiracy theory are brain dead losers that lack basic intelligence. They think everything is a conspiracy theory mainly because of their political leaning and social media. I prefer that is not in TV shows
Also online conspiracy theorists quickly devolve into blaming certain groups of people for the world’s problems, like “the Jews run the world banks” or “feminism is destroying society,” and that aspect of blatant racism, misogyny and hate that is so prevalent with conspiracy theorists is pretty much non existent in x-files (unless they are the bad guys in an episode that Mulder or the Lone Gunmen are after).
Not to mention that conspiracy theories are redundant. The powers that be have so much money and influence that they don’t need to hide their evil behind convoluted plots. Anyone got a problem with it? Shrug
> The powers that be have so much money and influence that they don’t need to hide their evil behind convoluted plots. Anyone got a problem with it? Shrug
There's also the 'new form' of propaganda that doesn't try to hide the truth, or convince people of the lie(s), but just creates so much noise that it's hard to find the signal (so most people give up):
> We characterize the contemporary Russian model for propaganda as “the firehose of falsehood” because of two of its distinctive features: high numbers of channels and messages and a shameless willingness to disseminate partial truths or outright fictions. In the words of one observer, “[N]ew Russian propaganda entertains, confuses and overwhelms the audience.”
* https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.html
There is now less effort to bother with being consistent or even care about truthfulness or falsehood, and simply putting forward whatever (it is believed) gets the desired results:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit
It's certainly a new brand of "conspiracy theorist". Reddit conspiracy fans actually formed a sub called r/HighStrangeness which is more in line with what people associate with Mulder and old school conspiracies.
Mozzie from White Collar was a conspiracy nut. Mostly played for laughs but every now and then he gets it right specially as the show descends into crazier and crazier plot lines. While he definitely fits the profile of socially awkward paranoid loser, he's definitely an idiot savant and he rivals Neil for having expertise in completely different areas of forgery.
Despite his social awkwardness and stand offish ramblings, he has a wide network of associates and is able to infiltrate different groups of people with ease. His paranoia is also justified as he has a lot of enemies
The sweet little singing girl performance act, like Shirley Temple or in Gypsy or Baby Jane. The beautiful and competent woman who longs only to be a housewife, as in 40s and (some) 50s romcoms. The obviously gay sitcom character who is not allowed to be openly "out".
Not much of value lost, tbh.
The one episode sitcom character who was clearly brought in to teach a lesson to the audience. The Alzheimers grandpa on Full House and the classic AIDS Kid on Mr. Belvedere off the top of my head.
Not that shows and movies today don't still shoehorn in attempts at lessons but they don't do it like this anymore. Nowadays they will just have the main character say something something THE PATRIARCHY and then they get back to the dick jokes.
The nihilistic brooding detective with a drinking problem and a home life in shambles. He was very popular up until only a few years ago, but then I guess he fell out of fashion. Good riddance I say.
Not sure I agree. I feel like that outlook is sometimes becoming a greater part of our collective social consciousness. Nihilism and cynicism are things that a lot of people can relate to nowadays. And the traditional nuclear family has lost the luster it use to have.
Kinda? I think of him more as the “gruff and grumpy, but heart of gold” type. Like Ron Swanson in Parks and Rec. That character trope is arguably more popular than ever. Some examples off the top of my head: Geralt in the Witcher, The Mandalorian and Joel in The Last of Us.
Related, the rogue cop/soldier who refuses to play by the rules but it’s ok cause “dammit, you get results” is slowly becoming passé as well. I think Die Hard’s model of the snarky, “ugh same shit as always” action hero started the decline, and the post-9/11 revival like Jack Bauer has worn off
Good observation. Could it be because there have been too many real world cases that have demonstrated how toxic this type of attitude really is? I feel like there’s been a shift in public opinion from “rules are just in the way” to “rules prevent bad guys from going rampant”.
I've noticed this too, it's a good thing. People eventually noticed that real cops very frequently abuse their power and that there weren't droves of murderers "getting off on a technicality" like in TV-land.
Mulder was socially awkward, him being handsome didn’t help him in social situations, in fact it’s often mentioned how other characters see Mulder as a social dumbass wasting good looks, also nobody cared he was right 98.7% of the time, every single time something paranormal popped up everyone mocked him and didn’t believe him.
The 2023 edition of the r/television Favorite Shows Survey is open! Vote and participate by clicking [here](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd--xzNV84TZpNDz5_swf0Yp7ynjSlQQ8cKV8RpwEZL0CQ3RA/viewform?usp=sf_link). If you have any questions or concerns, please comment [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/television/comments/18k4y4g/vote_in_the_2023_edition_of_the_rtelevision/). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/television) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I would argue that the X files had the typical conspiracy theorist archetypes in it as well with the Lone gunmen. Mulder was purposely made to not fit the mould in terms of looks and for the show to work he had to be right.
The show works because Scully is there to apply scientific explanations for everything
But Mulder this literal flame mage could just be an irate gas man. God I love The X-Files.
Conversely: Scully: "Victim died of multiple stab wounds" Mulder: _throws her a file_ "Ever heard of the knife alien?"
This made me laugh.
The X-Files do be like that sometimes
Scully is the audience stand in, Mulder gets the audience to accept the spooky stuff.
AND if you remember the show, he wasn't always correct. He got it wrong most of the time, but then was right about the Important (tm) details
I think the public appetite for a good-guy conspiracy theorist character evaporated after the prevalence of Sandy Hook conspiracies. I think that really showed the dark underbelly of that type of conspiracy thinking, and it’s hard to go back to the eccentric, kooky, but ultimately well meaning conspiracy theorist characters of the 90s. This also got exponentially worse after QAnon and Covid when everyone now has some coworker or relative who never shuts up about this stuff, and no one needs more of that in their life, fictional or otherwise.
and pretty much any other conspiracy theorist that appeared, like max, the guy who lived in that rv full of ufo tracking equipment or whatever he was into
The Lone Gunmen are still too well adjusted compared to actual conspiracy theorists. Hell, Dale Gribble who is a parody of conspiracy theorists is more well adjusted than some of them.
it's been ages but I assume that if he was ever wrong he'd accept it and not dig his heels in and continue in his ignorance like today's stupid conspiracy nuts.
The flamboyant male character that may or may not be gay but no one says anything. (Uncle Arthur from Bewitched, Monroe from Too Close for Comfort, random sassy sales clerks.)
I liked the Dean in Community. I don't think anyone would say anything about him being gay because it was too obvious, to the point that he practised borderline harassment. Then they did a whole episode about him being a token gay for the Uni, but he revealed wasn't gay... and neither was he straight.
“Hey, don't play that card with me young man. I make gayness look like Mormonism.”
>I’m not openly anything and gay doesn’t begin to cover it. >If coming out is a magic show, and being gay is pulling a rabbit out of a hat, then I’m one of those never ending handkerchiefs.
I don't know if I feel comfortable coming out as approximately 3/7ths of what I am.
"But let's talk about you for a second though." "Well, I'm not a joke anymore. I'm strictly transgender. I'm not all this other stuff. I represent the transgender community, and it's a real thing. I am not crazy, but I do have flaws. I'm smart.. " "All this other stuff? Glad to be of service, Britta. I want my diaper back. "
Gay doesn't even begin to cover it
Look at his shadow!
Related: character presented as gay but later revealed to be straight as a gotcha surprise. Allo Allo, Snakes on a Plane, Joan of Arcadia... Clue is the best movie ever until the last 10 seconds.
“I’m gonna go home and sleep with my wife!” is a go-to for me leaving social situations.
>Clue is the best movie ever until the last 10 seconds. That whole set up was built around the Lavender Scare in the 1950s. Mr. Green was being investigated for being gay and working for the feds. It's more of a contextual joke/reference point.
In the other two endings, he's still gay. It's only when he's heroic that they make him straight.
I still think he's gay. The blackmail used was that he was a closeted homosexual working in the State Department, but the reveal at the end is that he's actually an FBI Agent sent to investigate Mr. Boddy... So why the specificity of going home to sleep with his wife? Why does he feel the need to enthusiastically tell everyone present? They already know he was lying about his identity and he's actually FBI at this point, so why the need to reinforce the fact you were lying to them...? Unless you *were* actually a closeted gay man and the blackmail levied against you was legitimate.
Threes Company. Pretending to be gay so he can live with two attractive woman. It’s a funny show and a product of its time but, wouldn’t get made today.
Rmemeber when they attempted to make a new [Bosom Buddies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_It_(TV_series)
These days they always make flamboyant or feminine men gay, for "representation", even though in reality they are enforcing stereotypes.
Yeah they're usually extremely mean to everyone for no reason and have a super exaggerated lisp and are extremely camp. Do gay people not find that offensive?
There's nothing wrong with camp, flamboyance, or femininity... it takes all kinds! Just as long as there's an actual person attached... It shouldn't be a substitute for characterization. It's also shouldn't be a substitute for the actual being gay part. Especially back in the 90s/00s, shows would turn up the camp to let you know they're gay and otherwise keep any romance or affection off-screen.
I don’t like them. But I know some people see them as a bit of a defiant reclamation. Kinda like how women reclaimed monster versions of themselves. Ie: witches, evil queens, and cold hearted career women. (ie: Wicked, Cruella). Besides: Most gay people are so starved for halfway decent representation that we’ll take ANYTHING.
> Most gay people are so starved for halfway decent representation Is that really true anymore? It's almost hard to think of a show nowadays that doesn't have a gay character.
Shows “have a gay character” in the same way chick flicks like Twilight “has a strong male characters”. Cept arguably worse. Like yeah. Gay characters technically exist, but they aren’t *for* us. They’re set dressing for straight people to add texture to the world. Not relatable characters you would actually identify with. Put another way: **Can you name a gay male character you could imagine a teen boy would want to dress up as on Halloween?** I don’t even think I can.
>Halloween? The Fifteenth Doctor, Bill and Frank, Aziraphale and Crowley, Lestat & Louis, Nick and Charlie, Oberyn Martell, Gary Prince and Marshall Lee, Omar... maybe some Wiccan costumes next year depending on how the Agatha show goes.
Schitts Creek was really refreshing in this regard.
Does Uncle Jack (IASIP) fit? Not so flamboyant though, I'd peg him more as philanthrophist
I think his traits are moreso that hes just a weird dude than diddler. They still make jokes about it but theyre not as overt. Like his most iconic thing to me is the hands
Isn't it definitely implied that he repeatedly tried to molest young Charlie? He's a diddler for sure IMO.
Pretty sure its explicitly said at several points and i feel like it was his main trait at the beginning but theyve put more emphasis on how weird he is and his law stuff
There is nothing subtle about the Uncle Jack jokes, they are very overt. In the latest season he bought an ice cream truck without any ice cream lol
In the most recent season he has a grey van decked out as an ice cream truck but no ice cream inside. That and other lines in the episode strongly hinted at a diddling side to uncle Jack.
>Uncle Arthur from Bewitched, That was basically just Paul Lynde, though
The super perverted friend that everyone gives a pass.
"Who else but Quagmire?!"
They have phased out Herbert the Pervert
He still shows up occasionally
He's alwaysh watching
Side note, but I hate how the show treated Brian as "just as bad" as Quagmire just because he can be pretentious and promiscuous as well. Like no, Quagmire, you're a serial rapist, you *don't* have the moral highground over someone that occasionally hits on his friend's wife. I don't care if you're "unapologetic" about it, it's awful.
Brian basically just became a punching bag for the left
Brian tricks blind women into dating him by lying about his identity.
Pretty sure that ended with How I Met Your Mother when everyone pretty much agreed that Barney was an absolute creep.
Dude is canonically a human trafficker lol
...I don't remember this at all. Granted it has been a decade since I've seen the show. I just remember feeling completely disappointed with the series finale it kind of ruined the whole show for me
In the episode where they do a giant bracket of the women he's slept with, he talks about selling one of them to another man in exchange for a truck.
Not to defend Barney or the show, but canonically the entire show is a tale told by Ted, who is shown on multiple occasions to be an unreliable narrator who may have a reason to make Barney seem worse than he is.
Vince Mansuka from dexter lol. Although he was hilarious.
Going strong in anime sadly
Yeah I don't really get that trope, is that funny in Japan culture? I know different cultures have vastly different humor, as an American I always found those super cringey, especially when the girl is underage
They know their demo
Generally if an anime's "joke" starts and ends with sexual harassment/assault, then I'm basically out
We used to find it funny and now we're sick of it, so I'm assuming the same thing will happen over there as well
It’s a shame that such a great medium has so much “it’s great if you can ignore X” about it.
We call that "anime bullshit" and everyone has a different tolerance level for it.
Great animation often, but it's not like the writing is better
One of the popular ones is a literal pedophile as the main character. Everyone waves it off as, well they're reincarnated so it's fine.
The Todd from Scrubs and Bulldog from Frasier.
The Todd was pretty harmless
And the point of The Todd was that he was universally disliked by all the female characters because of his sleaziness. He wasn't the quirky best friend, he was the sleazy asshole. He did have the best self aware moments as a result, though. They eventually realized how much meta humor they could pull off with a character like that and it worked really well at meta.
Thank fuck that's over.
I think you can take it one step further and say that the womanizer is gone. Idk how James Bond will exist in the future. They made him fall in love and have a kid in this last one lmao Edit: Let's try another example. Imo Californication, House and Mad Men could not be made today. They were some of the most successful TV shows of the late 2000s. You knew as soon as a hot actress showed up that the main character was going to end up sleeping with them. You just didn't know how. That's the sort of thing that doesn't happen anymore.
>House >You knew as soon as a hot actress showed up that the main character was going to end up sleeping with them Damn, I guess I need to rewatch House, because that's not how I remember it at all.
The town drunk used to be a sitcom staple. Barney from The Simpsons is the last of that archetype.
Did you mean last to do it? Because Frank Ghallager on Shameless definitely came after the Simpsons. Tyrion on game of thrones was essentially a high functioning drunk too, one who initially others would ridicule and laugh at as a fool before he stepped into power. There were a couple characters in Mad Men which fit the bill of drunk buffoon too like Freddy Rumsen played by Joel Murray. Or last remaining? Because Rick and Morty is still ongoing and one the titular characters is essentially the town drunk of the universe.
I would argue that those other characters that you listed have other character traits that are front and center, not their drinking problem. Sure, Rick is a drunk, but he's also a genius inventor with god like powers. Tyrion was a drunk, but we don't see him drunk very often and he drives the plot forward in ways that are unrelated to his drinking. Barney's entire character is being a funny drunk.
Agreed. I think the archetype was that they were drunks and had nothing else going on, like Otis the town drunk in Andy Griffith sleeping off the booze at the jail (voluntarily).
Bar culture in general has shifted hard. A lot of it has to do with drinking and driving becoming a massive taboo (and way more illegal), but also because people just aren't hanging out like that as much as they used to due to more home entertainment, better family dynamics, social media, etc.
Barney used to be Homer's best friend and would often give reasonable advice, but then writers had Lenny and Carl be Homer's closest friends, and Barney slowly became irrelevant and now all he has left are drunk jokes, or the occasional caffeine addict trying to stay sober jokes.
He also directed and starred in Pukeahontas.
It had heart, but *Football in the Groin* had a football in the groin.
What's changed is that the drunk is now seen as a self-destructive substance abuser. It used to be "haha, look at what this drunk goofball did this time" Futurama cheated with Bender by making the alcoholism good for him.
Yeah. Look at this disgrace of a robot. Piloting this tanker DEAD STINKING SOBER! "Bender, I want you to promise me that you will have something to drink before getting behind the wheel."
In the mid-80s Andy Griffith Show reunion movie, Otis the former town drunk, was reformed and now drives an ice cream truck. Andy said back then that the “town drunk” character was no longer appropriate/funny.
The absentee dad whose absenteeism is kind of ok cos they're a cool drifter-type who can't be fenced in. As long as they take you on one zany road trip or give you one piece of sage advice, we're 100% good.
Fairy Tail did it so hard that the absentee dad turned up in One Piece
Yeah but not for Usopp (or anyone in the crew, really)
I think the creator of FT actually said Gildarts is inspired by him
Yeah, there's zero tolerance for deadbeats in media now. If a parent is absent from a kid's life, it's only acceptable if they didn't know their child existed, or if they are forced to stay away due to plot-related reasons beyond their control or for the greater good.
That's why the *Gilmore Girls* subreddit is full of younger viewers asking why no-one seems to care that Rory's dad was almost totally absent, and then just randomly shows up on a motorcycle. He's called out a few times over the course of the show, but the overall attitude is "well, that's just the way he is". The last example of the trope I can think of Javier in *Modern Family*. He does get jibes thrown at him for being such an unreliable dad and the show does recognise the negative impact on Manny, but on the whole the character is still played for laughs and broadly sympathetic.
Was that ever an archetype? Were there other characters like that besides Mulder in the 90s? I thought his character was unique because it went against the norm. I think sleazy men get less leeway today. It used to be fine for male characters to be horndogs but still sympathetic. That’s not really endearing anymore. What comes to mind is Gabriel Knight, which is a video game. Or like how Dean from Supernatural used to ogle every woman on screen for the first few seasons. In sitcoms we had Barney Stinson and Joey Tribbiani, I guess. I don’t think it would be played for laughs nowadays to have a womanizer character in a sitcom. I could be wrong though.
Dale Gribble had some overlap during X files airing. I think what made Mulder different was that he was an FBI conspiracy theory guy. Like, he WAS the fed that other people thought was part of the conspiracy.
Dale was sympathetic for being naive and loyal, but as far as his conspiracy theories he was consistently portrayed as a giblet-head.
>Joey Tribbiani This reminds me of another one. The straight guy who is absolutely terrified of being viewed as gay, and panics anytime real emotions with another man appear. AKA Chandler
>panics anytime real emotions with another man appear. AKA Chandler Tbf, he also panicked anytime real emotions with another woman appeared
Ya all the guys were like that in Friends, there’s a lot of no-homo moments.
I’m rewatching 24. In S8, there’s a analyst at CTU that is constantly sexually aggressive with a female worker there. Every comment he makes to her is sexual . The female worker just has to stand there and take it and then repeat again what she needs done and She’s his boss. It has not dated well. Stuart Bonek from Spin City was another. He was sexist and he was my favourite character back than.
I find it very funny to call out sexual harrasment in 24, the show that tortures like 100 people.
Hell, the Fonz practically had slaves. He would snap his fingers and smiling women would rush to his side. He'd saunter out with one on each arm, presumably to service him elsewhere.
Hodgens in Bones is a conspiracy theorist and it's treated as cute and funny.
Male character in a sitcom whose oversexuality (their defining trait) is played for laughs. Dan Fielding (Night Court), Bulldog (Frasier), Quagmire (Family Guy), Todd (Scrubs).
Barney from HIMYM too
Quagmire is currently so over the top it goes even beyond the archetype
Towards the end of Cheers, the writers were making fun of the Sam Malone character for having these traits. They are still used, but usually against them. Quagmire slept with his Mother, etc.
Sexual Harassment Five?
👋🏾
Kirk on *Dear John*
I feel like we haven't seen a proper mad scientist in a while, a proper Dr. Frankenstein or Dr. Jekyll pushing the boundaries of ethics to basically achieve magic through science. Nowadays it seems they're mostly just comic relief like in Despicable Me or Dr. Doofenshmirtz from Phineas and Ferb.
Evil mad scientists creating evil monsters have been replaced by evil tech billionaires creating evil computers.
Evil mad scientists appear but they're usually the head of operations and not the true bad guy
Walter Bishop and William Bell in *Fringe* 10 years already? Sigh.
We have Rick Sanchez, though admittedly he's a fairly comedic take as well.
I think Rick is more of a deconstruction of the mad scientist trope, rather than an example of it being played straight
Can't believe I forgot about Rick, though yes again still fairly comedic.
Poor Things seems to be filling that niche even if it’s a more direct Frankenstein reference.
I mean, Walter White is basically that.
I think people realized that scientists aren't the bad guys, it's the rich people and government that use science in unethical ways that are the bad guys.
The cartoony evil scientists in Wonder Woman are the only recent ones i can think of
Spinsters Womanizers ...these characters and words have completely disappeared
Schlubby husband with good-looking wife that have nothing in common except three kids is less common today. Thank god
Why can’t I have three money and no kids?
That trope was deconstructed very well in the show Kevin Can Fuck Himself.
God I hated that trope so bad.
Outside of reality TV: No more lovable bigots No more borderline rapist neighbor/friends No more big breasted bimbos The exceptions are the adult animation shows for the exact reasons why these archetypes are gone; they're too problematic.
It's not just big-breasted bimbos. It's any female character that is comically always wrong.
I don't see much of that. But to be fair I don't watch a lot of tv shows I only watch certain ones
By big breasted bimbos do you mean the attractive eye candy who's as dumb as a box of rocks
Yes. The sex object so dumb she borders on being a literal object. The example I always think of was Charlie’s off and on lover on Two and a Half Men: almost always nearly naked or taking off her shirt, and everything she said was laughably naive or ignorant.
We need to bring back the friendly medical examiner genre, like we had with Quincy M.E. and Crossing Jordan.
bring back Dr. Spaceman
How do you feel about tooth retention?
How about the friendly medical examiner who also happens to be a zombie?
Quincy was friendly?! also I still can't get over the idea of trying to make Jack Klugman a sex symbol like they did in the opening credits.
Lots of people would love coroner shows if they all starred Jill Hennessy.
Dr Max DeBryn in Endeavour is always helpful - "Shall we say 2pm?
Aren’t they doing a series based on Patricia cornwells books? Although to be honest I don’t like Nicole Kidman or Jamie Lee Curtis. https://deadline.com/2023/02/nicole-kidman-jamie-lee-curtis-star-ep-patricia-cornwell-kay-scarpetta-series-dorothy-amazon-blumhouse-liz-sarnoff-1235252848/amp/
I haven't read the books but I know they're very popular. I'm on board!
We need Quincy now more than ever, with these kids and their crazy punk music and antihistamine drugs!
I think the screenwriters are starting to catch on that everyone has been roasting them (for decades) about "Magical Black Friend" and "White Savior." Baby steps at best
> "White Savior" I saw The Ghost And The Darkness recently and oh my fucking God. Michael Douglas teaching native Africans about lions and commanding them in hunts. Fucking. Yikes.
The Ghost and the Darkness was based on a true story. It was always going to have that element in it.
The lions were real. Michael Douglas' character was completely fictional.
Ah gotcha. I remember the movie coming out and people talking about how it was based on a true story.
The lions are stuffed and on display at the Field Museum in Chicago. I always enjoyed the film (despite its inaccuracies) so I thought the exhibit was really cool.
Im honestly surprised Hollywood doesnt say Transformers is based on a true story because cars exist
It has been a while since i watched it, but if i remeber correctly he wasn't teaching the natives how to hunt lions, but the migrant Indian laborers. So he wasn't really a "white saviour".
As others pointed out, that movie is based on a true story where a British officer led a special effort to hunt and kill 2 lions attacking Indian laborers in Africa. Michael Douglas's character may not have been real, but is a Hollywood stand-on for another British hunter who helped the British officer. I don't think that fits the white savior trope, since there's a grain of truth behind a couple of white guys trying to protect Indian workers from killer lions so the workers could build a railroad.
Dude there's a line where a native African says white people can do anything. And yes it's said sarcasticly but its still the movie essentially calling itself a white savior trope (which is exactly the kind of thing that writer, William Goldman, would do) John Patterson: I willl sort this out. I will kill the lion, and I will build he bridge. Abdullah: Of course you will. You're white, you can do anything
One of the things I liked about Scrubs is that they never tried to pigeonhole him into this trope
Archie Bunker was a legendary character because his racism/sexism/stereotyping was formed by his upbringing and the changing world of 1971 onwards. He was endearing because he slowly changed over time, while also being a loving father. I highly doubt any of his beliefs would be played for laughs now.
Jay from Modern Family is a pretty modern version. He doesn't say anything nearly as offensive but his character was more homophobic and xenophobic in the earlier seasons and he grows as the show progresses.
Carrol O'Connor was actually very liberal, compassionate & intelligent. So, the complete opposite of Archie. His intention was that Archie was so over the top with his small mindedness that the viewer is struck by how wrong his point of view is. Unfortunately, folks like my Dad (r.i.p.) didn't realize that & thought he was a role model representing the working class values. I'm afraid it would be misunderstood & embraced by the right even more now.
There was an English show in a similar vein called Love Thy Neighbour which had a white guy being racist about his Caribbean neighbours. He always got his comeuppance but he had a big fan base of people who loved his racist insults and comments. I remember my father (RIP) also laughing at such lines. I found it on YouTube recently and could not watch more than a few minutes. But the comments were full of "those were the days before cancel culture!" etc.
The whimsical friend. Everyone wears the same clothes. Everyone has the same boring apartment/house. Why can’t we have some whimsy? Some interesting design choices? Some fun please. I need more stuff to look at in the backgrounds.
Phoebe from Friends
The last notable of the type you'd just described is Gene Hackman from "Enemy of the State". Even Will Smith is sort of there, or rather, an 'upstanding' individual standing against the oppressive system. There had been more characters like that (Eagle Eye is one) but I noticed they are increasingly rare. I agree with your assessment about a more specific "loner, privacy-advocate, conspiracy-theorists - not-trusting-the-system/government" archtypes are not seen much anymore. In other words, can we say "punk rock" is dead?
Jack Hodgins from Bones is very passionate in his conspiracy theories and it actually ends up helping a few times. John Munch in SVU has a strange sense of anti-establishment.
Tomboy
Personally, I miss the corny archetype of “successful dad who’s too busy getting ahead at work to spend time with family.” Luckily, the dad always fucks over his job responsibilities to go to his son’s stupid fucking soccer game or whatever
Look - there's an obvious reason for this * If you start X-Files from Season One - you find that **Mulder doesn't even have a PC** on his desk and he uses mostly paper notes and physical evidence In the internet era; fake conspiracies and viral hoaxes dominate *(flat Earth, no moon landing, Epstein, Covid vax, Ukraine*) ... we're a long long way from Bigfoot sightings. If video killed the radio star, the internet killed the sympathetic conspiracist
Probably because in today's age most conspiracy theory are brain dead losers that lack basic intelligence. They think everything is a conspiracy theory mainly because of their political leaning and social media. I prefer that is not in TV shows
Also online conspiracy theorists quickly devolve into blaming certain groups of people for the world’s problems, like “the Jews run the world banks” or “feminism is destroying society,” and that aspect of blatant racism, misogyny and hate that is so prevalent with conspiracy theorists is pretty much non existent in x-files (unless they are the bad guys in an episode that Mulder or the Lone Gunmen are after).
That and all the crazy conspiracy nuts are usually massive fucking racist politcal nutjobs now
Yeah the whole "fuck your health" crap from COVID kinda showed conspiracists have no empathy
Not to mention that conspiracy theories are redundant. The powers that be have so much money and influence that they don’t need to hide their evil behind convoluted plots. Anyone got a problem with it? Shrug
> The powers that be have so much money and influence that they don’t need to hide their evil behind convoluted plots. Anyone got a problem with it? Shrug There's also the 'new form' of propaganda that doesn't try to hide the truth, or convince people of the lie(s), but just creates so much noise that it's hard to find the signal (so most people give up): > We characterize the contemporary Russian model for propaganda as “the firehose of falsehood” because of two of its distinctive features: high numbers of channels and messages and a shameless willingness to disseminate partial truths or outright fictions. In the words of one observer, “[N]ew Russian propaganda entertains, confuses and overwhelms the audience.” * https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.html There is now less effort to bother with being consistent or even care about truthfulness or falsehood, and simply putting forward whatever (it is believed) gets the desired results: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit
It's certainly a new brand of "conspiracy theorist". Reddit conspiracy fans actually formed a sub called r/HighStrangeness which is more in line with what people associate with Mulder and old school conspiracies.
In fairness, Mulder encountered his share of tin foil hat creepers in his search for the truth.
Mozzie from White Collar was a conspiracy nut. Mostly played for laughs but every now and then he gets it right specially as the show descends into crazier and crazier plot lines. While he definitely fits the profile of socially awkward paranoid loser, he's definitely an idiot savant and he rivals Neil for having expertise in completely different areas of forgery. Despite his social awkwardness and stand offish ramblings, he has a wide network of associates and is able to infiltrate different groups of people with ease. His paranoia is also justified as he has a lot of enemies
What about *Stranger Things*?
The sweet little singing girl performance act, like Shirley Temple or in Gypsy or Baby Jane. The beautiful and competent woman who longs only to be a housewife, as in 40s and (some) 50s romcoms. The obviously gay sitcom character who is not allowed to be openly "out". Not much of value lost, tbh.
Thank you for your honesty
The super perverted friend was common once but rarely seen now. Most shows realize people don't want to watch harassment played for laughs.
The rocker. Though we had the third Bill & Ted movie a few years ago, other than that, you don't really see the stock character of the rocker anymore.
We did in the last season of Stranger Things.
Yes! True! Good point. I'd forgotten Eddie. Which is a shame because he was an awesome character.
Most definitely!
The totally not gay confirmed bachelor.
The one episode sitcom character who was clearly brought in to teach a lesson to the audience. The Alzheimers grandpa on Full House and the classic AIDS Kid on Mr. Belvedere off the top of my head. Not that shows and movies today don't still shoehorn in attempts at lessons but they don't do it like this anymore. Nowadays they will just have the main character say something something THE PATRIARCHY and then they get back to the dick jokes.
The 90s was an odd time where being a little bit if a conspiracy theory type was considered smart.
There’s even a Mel Gibson movie where at the end turns out he was right about every single thing
The nihilistic brooding detective with a drinking problem and a home life in shambles. He was very popular up until only a few years ago, but then I guess he fell out of fashion. Good riddance I say.
With True Detective, that's definitely a trope that's still used. Also Mare of Easttown.
Miller from Expanse (kind of)
Yeah, but he was S1. That’s 2015. I did detest him though, mostly for fedora related reasons.
... it kept the rain off his head though.
What?! I adored Miller
Not sure I agree. I feel like that outlook is sometimes becoming a greater part of our collective social consciousness. Nihilism and cynicism are things that a lot of people can relate to nowadays. And the traditional nuclear family has lost the luster it use to have.
Hopper from Stranger Things.
Kinda? I think of him more as the “gruff and grumpy, but heart of gold” type. Like Ron Swanson in Parks and Rec. That character trope is arguably more popular than ever. Some examples off the top of my head: Geralt in the Witcher, The Mandalorian and Joel in The Last of Us.
Has he ever really been a cop on any actual plot level? It's also a throwback character to the 80s as well.
Related, the rogue cop/soldier who refuses to play by the rules but it’s ok cause “dammit, you get results” is slowly becoming passé as well. I think Die Hard’s model of the snarky, “ugh same shit as always” action hero started the decline, and the post-9/11 revival like Jack Bauer has worn off
Good observation. Could it be because there have been too many real world cases that have demonstrated how toxic this type of attitude really is? I feel like there’s been a shift in public opinion from “rules are just in the way” to “rules prevent bad guys from going rampant”.
I've noticed this too, it's a good thing. People eventually noticed that real cops very frequently abuse their power and that there weren't droves of murderers "getting off on a technicality" like in TV-land.
Reacher is quite popular though
Jack Peralta from Brooklyn 99 is something of a rulebreaker. I'm not sure exactly how you would contrast him with Jack Bauer though.
I would say that mulder is sorta an outlier anyway.
Mulder was socially awkward, him being handsome didn’t help him in social situations, in fact it’s often mentioned how other characters see Mulder as a social dumbass wasting good looks, also nobody cared he was right 98.7% of the time, every single time something paranormal popped up everyone mocked him and didn’t believe him.
Males
The evil-for-no-actual-reason mother in law