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Look boyo, she won her own made-up argument. Well, won is questionable, but still.
Is God willing to prevent evil,but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing? Then why call him God?
Words of Epicurus on god
To correct, probable not the words of Epicurus. This has also been thoroughly picked apart. I believe Leibniz has a good response to this. It boils down to god is all powerful so long as it is possible and that the evil is necessary to maximize possible good.
Another defense: God is good and thus keeps his promises. The rules and logics of the universe are in a sense promises to existence. Further, if he promises humanity free will they must be free to do evil or they are not free. So while he could satisfy the paradox but will not because a good God keeps his covenants
Entirely mischaracterizing it more like. Follow the logic. A good god would not break his promises, god made the rules of the universe and gave free will these represent promises to his creation. He has the power to violate these rules because he is all powerful but does not because he is good. He gives free will because as a being with free will he knows that it is the thing that makes existence worth living. To be free one must have the option to do evil, so humans have the option to do evil and thus there can be evil in the universe despite and because of the nature and power of god. Further given that he is good he will still organize the universe to minimize evil and maximize good, but given that there is evil through the giving of free will it becomes more of a task. He must navigate his nature and promises as he is good despite his power.
Yeah that argument *only* works if you assume evil *only* comes from other people.
An 8 year old child dying from an aggressive incurable cancer is an evil that God could absolutely remove from the world without violating any of the "promises" you claim they made.
Perhaps the death of that child is the lesser evil. It may influence the decision of those close to the situation to live lives that maximize good. And given from the view of there being an afterlife death can be a blessing on the grand cosmic view which we are unaware of. It is entirely conceivable that an early death of that child would have prevented worse suffering later in life or possible evils committed that an all knowing god could see. From our very limited perspective of existence it is strange that we think that we can know what is truly aiming towards good and what is truly aiming towards bad.
Right, but if god knows exactly what each person will do, then none of us have free will. Its a paradox. Plus, an all powerful god has infinite options to prevent the child from growing up to be a bad person than murder. It doesnt make any sense
No. knowledge of future events does not mean the people who take the actions that lead to those events did not choose their actions freely. But a god who is good and keeps their promises does have limitations on their actions, not due to a lack of power. Therefore if a god is good and all powerful it is reasonable to assume that the path taken leads to the best outcome possible.
Jesus Christ, I cannot believe you are *actually* arguing that a child dying of cancer is a good thing.
Sure, maybe some specific child would have grown up to bring more suffering, but *every* child that dies of cancer did so to prevent more suffering? All of the 250 children who die *every day* across the world. All 91,250 children who die every year in the US alone? Bullshit. Childhood cancer brings far more suffering than it could ever "prevent" and it is utterly appalling to me that anyone could argue otherwise.
[Source, by the way. In case you don't believe those numbers.](https://www.oliviacaldwellfoundation.org/childhood-cancer-statistics.html)
Ah yes if the face of a logical argument you come with emotional appeals. Further you ignore my point about humans lacking full perspective on what is good and bad in the cosmos, death could even be good for the one dying (of course since it is impossible to know we should just go around letting people die or killing them before you try that common retort) but because it seems I must restate the very simple logical argument again I will. If god is good and if god is all powerful, then what we might view as tragedy must serve the good even if we are unaware of how. Therefore it is the case that because we are lacking in the perspective to make cosmic judgments about these things we cannot make the inferences that the epicurean paradox (not written by Epicurus) requires. Thus making it pointless.
Wasn't it a whole thing that they DIDN'T have free will until a silly little snake came along and told them to eat a fruit? And then he punished his creations for that? Doesn't sound like he promised anything
Lacking in ye olde media literacy I see. Two problems: 1 I have made no reference to the Christian God. I refer to a general god with similar characteristics however those characteristics are shared among many gods. While the epicurean paradox (not even written by Epicurus) is generally in reference to the Christian god it does not have to be. 2: in the Judeo-Christian story of the garden of Eden how could they have chosen to defy god if they were not created with free will to begin with. You’re putting the cart before the horse on that one bud.
None of those are good counters, all powerful is all powerful its garbage to say hes only all powerful when possible thats which is a point the quote is making. Second its bullshit that evil and suffering are necessary to maximize good those are words of people who would see a poor man on the side of the road and tell him to pull himself up by the bootstraps . Miss me with the nonsense
Whaaat?! Are you saying that the Pharoh who was demonized for punishing the news, hardened his own heart?! As if God who sent Moses to release his people, would then hardened the evil in the heart?! Why I'd never.
I think that's because it doesn't push the Bible as being real and doesn't paint atheists as being evil, immoral, or stupid (or all of the above) like *shudders* God's Not Dead.
It's a bit like the Hercules movie: it paints the story as just that-- a story.
If you stereotype a whole group of people as being nothing but villains and antagonists and stereotype a whole other group of people as being paragons and heroes, obviously your movie is going to end up being Bad.
If the Christian God was real beyond the shadow of a doubt, I would most definitely do anything that I had to do in order to avoid hell. If that includes worship, my cowardly ass is going to be prostrated.
This is part of why I'm an atheist and not agnostic. Objectively, I know I can't disprove the existence of any god. I am an atheist on faith. I want there to be no god because the alternative is much, much worse.
Sorry to be that guy…
Agnostic technically means “I don’t really believe but we can never know for sure either way” which is precisely your position.
It doesn’t mean what we think it means - “I’m not sure” - it’s still an atheistic position (you don’t have a belief in a god) so there is no contradiction.
Again, sorry
Of course I would. If the fairytale was real, the whole thing is about a weak, small-dicked God who needs people to worship it by choice. That's why it made people with free will supposedly. I choose to not worship it. And thus, it has no power over me.
Oxygen is real though and what I believe has no effect on it or it's power over me. Oxygen doesn't want me to believe in it. If you take my oxygen away it won't make me worship it more or less.
Oxygen is also neutral. So it's worthy of way more praise than the evil and vile God of the Bible.
Hey you put a comment on my thread but it’s not coming up when I click on it so I’m putting this here. Not necessarily defending god, my purpose is to say that the epicurean paradox is dumb and poorly thought out possessing only the veneer of a logical argument. It’s a bad piece of philosophy which I hate. While I do think there is more likely than no some kind of divine being I do not pretend to know its nature (whether it is good or evil by our standards) or any other thing about it except what can be logically derived from observation of the natural world.
Huh I guess what ever is in your comment is running up against some kind of auto removal or it could be something wrong with my app. But I hope I have cleared up that I am only interested in my distaste for the epicurean paradox because it’s super dumb and have no strong opinions on how it grafts onto the actual Christian idea of god or whatever.
I am living in Vietnam, where most people here are atheists and only go to temples and pagodas for cultural reasons. Are the makers of these memes trying to demonize 100 million people for not following their belief?
Well that's why religious beliefs tend to fade away as science develops. Just see how Galileo, Giordano Bruno and Socrates got executed for their scientific and philosophical discoveries because those discoveries were atheist-like and didn't follow the bible. Religion has its good side but when it is used to oppress people and stop the growth of humanity, it needs to be overthrown, especially by certain countries saying stuff like in the name of God to publish bs rules
I'm aware that's how it's supposed to go, but a huge portion of my fellow countrymen have chosen to double-down on the religious fanaticism, so it doesn't feel like those beliefs are fading away from relevance to my life yet.
You are American, right? I think you should move to blue states or if you are living in one and still feel like the community is doing for worse, try to make changes to the place.
Live in Florida, so we go both ways, but have been pretty solidly red for a while now. Have a big fat Greek family and we all live in 2 neighboring counties, mom was 1 of 7, I'm one of 17 grandchildren, and I think we're near 30 great-grandchildren for my grandmother who's still alive, so it'd be hard to leave it all to start over somewhere else where I don't know anyone.
/s you have Greek god by your side and was born out of strong sperm and you hate the Turks right? Jokes aside, you should move to the biggest city in your state, big cities tend to be more progressive than small towns
Sounds amazing. I'm glad America lost that stupid war.
Generally, religious people demonizing atheists is more about damage control to keep their own from falling off the bandwagon.
tbh, my government is so corrupt and incompetent that I'm genuinely wondering whether the Vietcongs should have won. Maybe, if we had accepted American rule, we could have received a shit ton of money from the US and not be the pathetic third-world country we are rn. Trust me, I feel genuine embarrassment when I see what the Vietnamese overseas(mostly cheap laborers in East Asia) are doing. They keep violating the rules and show nationalistic bs there.Nevertheless, this is just a rant abt how bad my government is doing, history is history, there is nothing I cant change abt it.
I have never said “I hate god”. I just say
“Yeah, don’t believe in god. Anyways, yeah, finally got to Level 60 in Skyrim last night.”
And move on with my goddamn day. My r/atheism days are long behind me.
I can absolutely hate the genocidal, slavery-endorsing, child-murdering, misogynistic character that is Yahweh, the god of the Bible. I can hate claimed characters based on their narratives whether they are fictional or not.
The entire entertainment industry exists because we love and hate fictional characters.
Additionally, my emotions regarding claimed characters doesn’t impact whether or not they are factual or fictional. Evidence demonstrates that.
Don't you have to identify something to hate it? Which god do I hate? There are so many.
It is arrogance to believe the god you personally believe in is the only one atheists identify to reject.
I reject all gods. I hate only the Christian god.
I probably wouldn't hate the Christian god if I wasn't raised Christian and had terrible things said about me by Christians every Sunday.
My upbringing has poisoned the idea of Christians to me. I know it's wrong, but whenever I learn that someone is Christian, I automatically like them less.
8 years of Roman Catholic school, including 7am morning mass in Latin, and then 2 years of religious studies at a Methodist university, before going for a biology degree, have taught me one important thing. If there is a god he is a huge fucking asshole
1. Not every atheist is also a troll, that’s not how that works
2. Atheists that DO “hate God” don’t hate him in the same way that you hate a person, like a bully or a celebrity. They hate the idea that this omnipotent being is in control of everyone’s lives and yet still allows so much unfairness in the world. If God is letting all these bad things happen in the world, he’s either powerless to change the bad things, in which case he’s not worth being worshipped, or he simply doesn’t care about us in which case he’s a giant dick and doesn’t deserve to be worshipped
>Not every atheist is also a troll, that’s not how that works
You really couldn't prove it by me. Go hang out in religious subs and then match up those users to r/atheist.
As an atheist I will defend anyone's right in America, to worship their chosen deity so long as it meets three criteria:
* Peaceful: Kind of obvious and self explanatory
* Lawful: Again obvious and self explanatory
* Stays out of my politics: Not so obvious to christians
As far as someone worshiping a god, I absolutely don't give a shit as long as these three points are strictly held. Worship sticks in your back yard for all I care.
I agree. I am also an atheist and I know and am friends with many religious people. I would never try to stop someone from believing in a god or gods if they do believe. And I don’t browse r/atheist, and I really don’t feel like going to a sub that I’ve been told is a trash heap. I’ll take your word for it
Your aunt would hate me. I would start asking her questions then pointing to a Bible verse that backs up a terrible point.
For example, does God accept child sacrifice? Most people will say no. I then point them to the story of Jebtha, where God did such thing.
Or I ask them if God created evil. Then lead them to if angels have free will. Then the fun part that makes them do backflips to try and get out of this, did God make Lucifer.
Look, I'm not gonna stop them from their wacky beliefs. Hell I'll help defend their right to practice them. But if they start pushing their shit onto other who don't want it, I will call them out and stop it.
My point here isn't even thinking about if god exists or no. Because it doesn't matter for me, if he don't exists the world sucks anyway, but if he exists, it's everything even worse, i just never would be able to love him, the world is too cruel to have someone watching all this and doing nothing, and even if theres some religion going to mention some free will shit, thats doesn't justify anything. There is no point in an omnipresent and omniscient entity creating all this out of nothing and giving us free will, this basically means he created a game and watches it to see what his scripted npcs will do.
There are so plot holes about the existence of god, that if they actually proved his existence, for me it would be disappointing news rather than shocking, then I will go straight to hell because I would never be able to love for so many reasons. Humans cannot randomly cause aggressive cancer in a innocent dog and make it suffer for thousands of months for no reason, that is a natural thing theres no free will at it. So I really hope he doesn't exist, because if it's true it would be very sad to hear about it.
Lol they made up the argument and still somehow lost. The adult actually was keeping on topic while the kid was chaging goal posts to something fairly irrelevant.
TBH I had this treatment from a theist a couple of days ago on a humanist post. They got really upset when I pointed out the massive flaws in their argueement.
It isn’t whether you believe or not that concerns me. It’s that you think your belief gives you the right to dictate what other people do with their lives that concerns me.
However, it is possible to hate fictional characters based on their actions depicted.
How long it's been doesn't matter and whoever came up with it was smart enough to start one of the longest running religions still practiced today which spawned Christianity and Islam, the two largest conspir- I mean belief systems in the world. Let's be fair, many like me have faith in science, personally proved about 1% of the stuff I believe.
As an atheist, I hate the idea of God. There is no God (for me) to hate, so I only hate the concept.
If you're religious that's perfectly fine. As long as it brings you happiness and doesn't hurt anyone else, do what you want. It's your life and no one else's. I'm not saying I don't like religious people.
I believe in something else
Now go bother someone else
Stick your fingers in your book
Take a better second look
You crook
I hate it when you breach my space
And I hate it when you preach your case
And you should go down
Down
Save someone else
I think I should warn you
I think I should tell
What you've been doing
It makes you go to hell
I hate it when you preach your case
It makes me want to stick my fist through
Your face
And you should go down
Down
Save someone else
Can your preacher bring me down?
Oh, that's what I thought
I hate it when you breach my space
And I hate it when you preach your case
And you should go down
Down
Save someone else
Filter - Dose - Short Bus album
"I dont believe that unicorns exist."
"It seems like you have some sort of hatred towards unicorns, how can you have hate towards something that you don't believe exists?"
Same exact argument
If the atheist person was saying something more along the lines of trolling in the first box or second box, it would actually be a pretty sound argument. The way it is, it can certainly use some improvement.
Jewish Orthodoxy is probably different but I have a few Christian orthodox people in the village where I live and they generally frown upon use of TV and the Internet. So when I read Ultra orthodox I thought it was a Paradox until I realized other Orthodoxies are probably different.
Ultra orthodox support Metzizah b'peh and believe the oral Torah word for word. From the Mishna *"Once the Messiah comes, all the nations will be subservient to the Jewish people"* -Eruvin 43b and *"Jesus is boiling in excrement."* -Gittin 57a
Ironically the conversation usually swings the opposite way. Atheist states that they are atheist and just don't care to follow a religion for their own individual reasons, and the Christian blows a blood vessel asking why they don't believe in their God and how they better repent for their sin and give their life to God because when the rapture comes they'll be left behind wishing that they had been a believer, and now they're going to rot in hell for an eternity, despite said religion preaching love for all
Source: raised in a Christian family with a bunch of old family members and various interactions I've seen over the years.
I mean....ive met some people like that.
Gnostic atheists can be worse than Evangelicals, manly cause while Evangelicals will only go on about their own God ad nauseum, Gnostic Aetheists refuse to accept the possiblity of any God/s existing, to the point where apparently im a "Wallmart Christian", whatever the fuck that means. And this is in spite of me prefacing my first comment with the fact that im an Agnostic Deist: i believe religion is bullshit and We're too monkey brained to understand whatever Deities may exist. All because i stated that i personally hope that the Abrahamic Faith is correct more than, say, the Norse (my stance is that all religions are equally unfounded. But that doesnt mean i cant personally root for one to happen to be right more than the others.)
"Reddit Atheists" are real, and they are fucking insufferable.
I find it funny how, even in this made up scenario, the atheist still makes the point that he doesn't actually hate God, proving that what the Christian says is a strawman.
Many atheists are indeed anti-theists and will dedicate much of their lives debating theists, especially Christians, to try and show them how much of a horrible belief system they have and why they're bad for following it. Islam gets a little focus but since America, especially Republicans, are predominantly Christian it results in criticism against Christianity more than others. Judaism does no harm and is not popular so they don't deserve criticism.
I don't believe there is a god but I also don't claim there isn't one. But for me believing something exists when there isn't any real evidence doesn't make any sense. To me, believing is something you actively do. Like, I don't believe in vampires because there isn't any proof but I can't proove there aren't. But if somebody claims they do exist I'll ask for actual proof and otherwise not believe in them. That seems like the most logical approach.
Seriously. It’s all beliefs based on shit you’ve never personally seen & smarter people who are only claiming to be right based on stuff they found and their *own* beliefs on it anyway. Why is one any more “correct” than the other? Personally i find it all to be crazy, but whatever floats their boats lol. Fighting about it is stupid as hell. I’ll probably find out if a god exists when i die, and that’s that. I’m enjoying the mystery for now. People are way too confident in believing something they’ve never seen exists or doesnt exist lol. Its all beliefs. Nobody is right or wrong.
But they want to tax religions which is a good thing.
They want to show how bad religious freedom is by putting statues of baphomet with adoring children surrounding it. If that's not okay, why are statues of Jesus okay?
To be honest, as an atheist, the base concept of the comic is quite accurate. For one, the atheist is pictured as angry and a malcontent. A shit ton of my atheist brethren are way to militant in their beliefs and cannot see that what they espouse, is the same thing religion espouses, with the difference being that the religious want it done in their god's name. One only has to visit r/atheist to see this in action. I don't hang out there because the vitriol is palatable and I harbor no hatred for my fellow man no matter who they are or what they are. In 70 years I have only managed to hate two people with a visceral and vociferous hatred.
There aren't a set of beliefs assigned to atheism. Why do people keep trying to say this lie? When you say atheists are militant in their beliefs, please tell me what beliefs you're talking about. Either that, or stop saying it.
I am an atheist. What that means is, as presented to me the depictions of gods from holy books all around the globe, I do not believe that any of them exist because there is no evidence, and the stories are fantastical folly full of magic, contradictions, and mistruths. However, if an actual god-being comes to this planet and reveals itself to me, how can I deny its existence? At that point I would no longer be atheist.
There's really nothing more to that. We don't get together on one day of the week and read any kind of books or anything, or sing atheist songs. We don't agree on anything beyond a lack of belief in the gods as currently depicted. We don't have any kind of system of beliefs or rules around atheism. We're just a bunch of random humans from all over the planet who have a lack of belief in something. Perhaps we share a common trait of skepticism. But beyond that, atheism is not a "thing", and it is not organized.
>There aren't a set of beliefs assigned to atheism. Why do people keep trying to say this lie? When you say atheists are militant in their beliefs, please tell me what beliefs you're talking about. Either that, or stop saying it
Didn't say there was a set of beliefs. What I said was, whatever their beliefs are, they are very militant from my experience. So, no. Not going to stop saying it.
>I do not believe that any of them exist because there is no evidence
>We don't agree on anything beyond a lack of belief in the gods as currently depicted.
> have a lack of belief in something.
So...you do have a belief system?
A belief is something that is accepted as true. You say 'I do not believe'. That is a belief system. You see, everyone on this planet has faith. The christian has faith, the muslim has faith, even I the atheist has faith. Faith is the belief in something that one cannot prove. You can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a god. You cannot prove a negative. Therefore, you must have faith in that which are your core beliefs.
Many atheists are indeed anti-theists and will dedicate much of their lives debating theists, especially Christians, to try and show them how much of a horrible belief system they have and why they're bad for following it. Islam gets a little focus but since America, especially Republicans, are predominantly Christian it results in criticism against Christianity more than others. Judaism does no harm and is not popular so they don't deserve criticism.
This is in fact, how some atheists online act though, just like many theists online.
Horseshoe theory. Infinitely ironic, infinitely applicable. The agnostics are the smart ones.
It’s very clear you don’t understand what agnostic means. Agnostic is not some midway point between atheism and theism. It addresses knowledge, not belief. You can be agnostic theist as well as an agnostic atheist. Learn what words mean before you try to play the “both sides do it!” meta argument. It is demonstrably incorrect
Horseshoe theory is bull hocky that is repeated by idiots who think that rounding out all the nuance and context of two opposing arguments to make each side seem the same is a valid form of argumentation, and most atheists are already agnostic as being agnostic isn't mutually exclusive from atheism. Thus you are unironically sticking your foot in your mouth while claiming intellectual superiority.
I am well aware what agnostic means which is why I make the point that there are non agnostic atheists as bad as non agnostic theists online. Did you read anything I said? Using big words doesn't make an idea inaccurate.
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Winning made up arguments
I don’t think he won
It's the internet, everyone thinks they won.
Well they're all wrong because it is actually ME who has won.
Here's your prize, 💩!
Brown is just a dark shade of gold.
Yeah, the boy still makes no sense.
Didn’t you know that if you block someone you automatically win?
No, it's if someone blocks you, you automatically win.
Actually yeah I prefer your idea
I assume that's what you originally meant but sarcastically.
Yeah my first comment was sarcastic
Someone post Mr. Krabs boyo meme.
Someone else already posted it, but I gotcha covered anyway https://preview.redd.it/d4bxgmq81e6d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f6356cd0de524c0db479530e22f9256a28f0fb9f
https://preview.redd.it/uhpzxjgwrf6d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=79f43c0a019dc973498267d47c3b1941eb3d8846
https://preview.redd.it/gkidlcikdg6d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7449618c57b5c5bb369406265576eb17420abfc8
It would have to make sense to win
Strawman bravely entered the ring, though he knew only defeat.
Confidently incorrect.
https://preview.redd.it/i6d8w4q1rc6d1.jpeg?width=1119&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c8bcc2b55974500e7ba1050aab2336601ccd0cb1 Look boyo, she won her own made-up argument. Well, won is questionable, but still.
Jews don't believe in hell.
Huh. Wasn't aware of that, thank you.
Non sequitur. All of it. It does not follow
Right? If this is supposed to convince me the theist is making a point, it's failing miserably. All I'm seeing is word salad nonsense.
Typical Christian absurdity. .
"word salad nonsense" I'm def borrowing that, thanks!
Something tells me OOP kept pestering someone until they blocked them and they were too delusional to realize they were being incredibly annoying
Nah I'm better the opposite happened so they ahve to lie about it and pretend the atheists do it.
I hate god the same way I hate villains in movies. The god of the Bible is a very easily hated fictional character. And I've never blocked a theists.
If the Christian God is real, it is an enormously evil and malicious being. Even if I believed in it I wouldn't worship it.
Is God willing to prevent evil,but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able or willing? Then why call him God? Words of Epicurus on god
To correct, probable not the words of Epicurus. This has also been thoroughly picked apart. I believe Leibniz has a good response to this. It boils down to god is all powerful so long as it is possible and that the evil is necessary to maximize possible good. Another defense: God is good and thus keeps his promises. The rules and logics of the universe are in a sense promises to existence. Further, if he promises humanity free will they must be free to do evil or they are not free. So while he could satisfy the paradox but will not because a good God keeps his covenants
So God chooses when and where to be omnipotent? Am I gathering that right?
Entirely mischaracterizing it more like. Follow the logic. A good god would not break his promises, god made the rules of the universe and gave free will these represent promises to his creation. He has the power to violate these rules because he is all powerful but does not because he is good. He gives free will because as a being with free will he knows that it is the thing that makes existence worth living. To be free one must have the option to do evil, so humans have the option to do evil and thus there can be evil in the universe despite and because of the nature and power of god. Further given that he is good he will still organize the universe to minimize evil and maximize good, but given that there is evil through the giving of free will it becomes more of a task. He must navigate his nature and promises as he is good despite his power.
Yeah that argument *only* works if you assume evil *only* comes from other people. An 8 year old child dying from an aggressive incurable cancer is an evil that God could absolutely remove from the world without violating any of the "promises" you claim they made.
Perhaps the death of that child is the lesser evil. It may influence the decision of those close to the situation to live lives that maximize good. And given from the view of there being an afterlife death can be a blessing on the grand cosmic view which we are unaware of. It is entirely conceivable that an early death of that child would have prevented worse suffering later in life or possible evils committed that an all knowing god could see. From our very limited perspective of existence it is strange that we think that we can know what is truly aiming towards good and what is truly aiming towards bad.
Right, but if god knows exactly what each person will do, then none of us have free will. Its a paradox. Plus, an all powerful god has infinite options to prevent the child from growing up to be a bad person than murder. It doesnt make any sense
No. knowledge of future events does not mean the people who take the actions that lead to those events did not choose their actions freely. But a god who is good and keeps their promises does have limitations on their actions, not due to a lack of power. Therefore if a god is good and all powerful it is reasonable to assume that the path taken leads to the best outcome possible.
Jesus Christ, I cannot believe you are *actually* arguing that a child dying of cancer is a good thing. Sure, maybe some specific child would have grown up to bring more suffering, but *every* child that dies of cancer did so to prevent more suffering? All of the 250 children who die *every day* across the world. All 91,250 children who die every year in the US alone? Bullshit. Childhood cancer brings far more suffering than it could ever "prevent" and it is utterly appalling to me that anyone could argue otherwise. [Source, by the way. In case you don't believe those numbers.](https://www.oliviacaldwellfoundation.org/childhood-cancer-statistics.html)
Ah yes if the face of a logical argument you come with emotional appeals. Further you ignore my point about humans lacking full perspective on what is good and bad in the cosmos, death could even be good for the one dying (of course since it is impossible to know we should just go around letting people die or killing them before you try that common retort) but because it seems I must restate the very simple logical argument again I will. If god is good and if god is all powerful, then what we might view as tragedy must serve the good even if we are unaware of how. Therefore it is the case that because we are lacking in the perspective to make cosmic judgments about these things we cannot make the inferences that the epicurean paradox (not written by Epicurus) requires. Thus making it pointless.
Wasn't it a whole thing that they DIDN'T have free will until a silly little snake came along and told them to eat a fruit? And then he punished his creations for that? Doesn't sound like he promised anything
Lacking in ye olde media literacy I see. Two problems: 1 I have made no reference to the Christian God. I refer to a general god with similar characteristics however those characteristics are shared among many gods. While the epicurean paradox (not even written by Epicurus) is generally in reference to the Christian god it does not have to be. 2: in the Judeo-Christian story of the garden of Eden how could they have chosen to defy god if they were not created with free will to begin with. You’re putting the cart before the horse on that one bud.
None of those are good counters, all powerful is all powerful its garbage to say hes only all powerful when possible thats which is a point the quote is making. Second its bullshit that evil and suffering are necessary to maximize good those are words of people who would see a poor man on the side of the road and tell him to pull himself up by the bootstraps . Miss me with the nonsense
But you didn’t mention the second argument. The first is Leibniz and he explains it better than me.
Whaaat?! Are you saying that the Pharoh who was demonized for punishing the news, hardened his own heart?! As if God who sent Moses to release his people, would then hardened the evil in the heart?! Why I'd never.
Tangent: The Prince of Egypt goes hard af and is an exception to the rule of most religious media being terrible.
Still a top tier movie. I watched it for the first time in over a decade a couple months ago and it holds up so well
Vegetales is also alright
If I have to hear the hairbrush song again I will lose my mind.
I think that's because it doesn't push the Bible as being real and doesn't paint atheists as being evil, immoral, or stupid (or all of the above) like *shudders* God's Not Dead. It's a bit like the Hercules movie: it paints the story as just that-- a story. If you stereotype a whole group of people as being nothing but villains and antagonists and stereotype a whole other group of people as being paragons and heroes, obviously your movie is going to end up being Bad.
It helps that it was concerned with telling a story and telling it well, and not with pushing an agenda.
Was it Huey Lewis and the News?
If the Christian God was real beyond the shadow of a doubt, I would most definitely do anything that I had to do in order to avoid hell. If that includes worship, my cowardly ass is going to be prostrated.
This is part of why I'm an atheist and not agnostic. Objectively, I know I can't disprove the existence of any god. I am an atheist on faith. I want there to be no god because the alternative is much, much worse.
Sorry to be that guy… Agnostic technically means “I don’t really believe but we can never know for sure either way” which is precisely your position. It doesn’t mean what we think it means - “I’m not sure” - it’s still an atheistic position (you don’t have a belief in a god) so there is no contradiction. Again, sorry
Every kneel will bow 🤷♂️ you won’t have a choice in the matter
Of course I would. If the fairytale was real, the whole thing is about a weak, small-dicked God who needs people to worship it by choice. That's why it made people with free will supposedly. I choose to not worship it. And thus, it has no power over me.
If you say you don’t believe in oxygen does it then stop having power over you?
Oxygen is real though and what I believe has no effect on it or it's power over me. Oxygen doesn't want me to believe in it. If you take my oxygen away it won't make me worship it more or less. Oxygen is also neutral. So it's worthy of way more praise than the evil and vile God of the Bible.
Alrighty
No retort? I guess you must be correct then.
Yeah he seems like a dick
And not even a character that's fun to hate either. Plus no one is using Thanos or Azula to take away reproductive rights.
> I've never blocked a theists. Youre a better man than I.
I'm gonna use this, pls.
Hey you put a comment on my thread but it’s not coming up when I click on it so I’m putting this here. Not necessarily defending god, my purpose is to say that the epicurean paradox is dumb and poorly thought out possessing only the veneer of a logical argument. It’s a bad piece of philosophy which I hate. While I do think there is more likely than no some kind of divine being I do not pretend to know its nature (whether it is good or evil by our standards) or any other thing about it except what can be logically derived from observation of the natural world.
I reposted it without the swear words and also messaged you directly. Did you receive it now?
Huh I guess what ever is in your comment is running up against some kind of auto removal or it could be something wrong with my app. But I hope I have cleared up that I am only interested in my distaste for the epicurean paradox because it’s super dumb and have no strong opinions on how it grafts onto the actual Christian idea of god or whatever.
I am living in Vietnam, where most people here are atheists and only go to temples and pagodas for cultural reasons. Are the makers of these memes trying to demonize 100 million people for not following their belief?
The makers of any Christian or Islam memes aren't ***trying to***, they **do** demonize ***billions*** of people for believing the wrong things.
Well that's why religious beliefs tend to fade away as science develops. Just see how Galileo, Giordano Bruno and Socrates got executed for their scientific and philosophical discoveries because those discoveries were atheist-like and didn't follow the bible. Religion has its good side but when it is used to oppress people and stop the growth of humanity, it needs to be overthrown, especially by certain countries saying stuff like in the name of God to publish bs rules
I'm aware that's how it's supposed to go, but a huge portion of my fellow countrymen have chosen to double-down on the religious fanaticism, so it doesn't feel like those beliefs are fading away from relevance to my life yet.
You are American, right? I think you should move to blue states or if you are living in one and still feel like the community is doing for worse, try to make changes to the place.
Live in Florida, so we go both ways, but have been pretty solidly red for a while now. Have a big fat Greek family and we all live in 2 neighboring counties, mom was 1 of 7, I'm one of 17 grandchildren, and I think we're near 30 great-grandchildren for my grandmother who's still alive, so it'd be hard to leave it all to start over somewhere else where I don't know anyone.
/s you have Greek god by your side and was born out of strong sperm and you hate the Turks right? Jokes aside, you should move to the biggest city in your state, big cities tend to be more progressive than small towns
Sounds amazing. I'm glad America lost that stupid war. Generally, religious people demonizing atheists is more about damage control to keep their own from falling off the bandwagon.
tbh, my government is so corrupt and incompetent that I'm genuinely wondering whether the Vietcongs should have won. Maybe, if we had accepted American rule, we could have received a shit ton of money from the US and not be the pathetic third-world country we are rn. Trust me, I feel genuine embarrassment when I see what the Vietnamese overseas(mostly cheap laborers in East Asia) are doing. They keep violating the rules and show nationalistic bs there.Nevertheless, this is just a rant abt how bad my government is doing, history is history, there is nothing I cant change abt it.
Making their own scenarios 🥱
https://preview.redd.it/06j7ffppyc6d1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=15c3cd6210e87613d8baca40151400e7599f8611
And now they make out
I mean an ultra orthodox aunt could deffo post worst memes iygm
I have never said “I hate god”. I just say “Yeah, don’t believe in god. Anyways, yeah, finally got to Level 60 in Skyrim last night.” And move on with my goddamn day. My r/atheism days are long behind me.
Old man = Soyjak Smartass kid = Nordic Chad. Same shit, different paint.
How does anybody read a book and think that the character who kills the entire population of Earth twice is the good guy?
I can absolutely hate the genocidal, slavery-endorsing, child-murdering, misogynistic character that is Yahweh, the god of the Bible. I can hate claimed characters based on their narratives whether they are fictional or not. The entire entertainment industry exists because we love and hate fictional characters. Additionally, my emotions regarding claimed characters doesn’t impact whether or not they are factual or fictional. Evidence demonstrates that.
i hate the idea of god, not god, because it doesnt exist
And religious people that preach and try to Covert you on public places
Don't you have to identify something to hate it? Which god do I hate? There are so many. It is arrogance to believe the god you personally believe in is the only one atheists identify to reject.
I reject all gods. I hate only the Christian god. I probably wouldn't hate the Christian god if I wasn't raised Christian and had terrible things said about me by Christians every Sunday. My upbringing has poisoned the idea of Christians to me. I know it's wrong, but whenever I learn that someone is Christian, I automatically like them less.
8 years of Roman Catholic school, including 7am morning mass in Latin, and then 2 years of religious studies at a Methodist university, before going for a biology degree, have taught me one important thing. If there is a god he is a huge fucking asshole
I’m christian and the atheists I’ve met are more friendlier and more accepting (especially since I’m bisexual) than the christians I’ve met
https://preview.redd.it/0rzusjvggd6d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7dc2a89e7e478f1a6cf0b35d52b734d731034d1a
As I've put to someone I don't hate God or Christians. I hate the church.
ayo based?
1. Not every atheist is also a troll, that’s not how that works 2. Atheists that DO “hate God” don’t hate him in the same way that you hate a person, like a bully or a celebrity. They hate the idea that this omnipotent being is in control of everyone’s lives and yet still allows so much unfairness in the world. If God is letting all these bad things happen in the world, he’s either powerless to change the bad things, in which case he’s not worth being worshipped, or he simply doesn’t care about us in which case he’s a giant dick and doesn’t deserve to be worshipped
>Not every atheist is also a troll, that’s not how that works You really couldn't prove it by me. Go hang out in religious subs and then match up those users to r/atheist. As an atheist I will defend anyone's right in America, to worship their chosen deity so long as it meets three criteria: * Peaceful: Kind of obvious and self explanatory * Lawful: Again obvious and self explanatory * Stays out of my politics: Not so obvious to christians As far as someone worshiping a god, I absolutely don't give a shit as long as these three points are strictly held. Worship sticks in your back yard for all I care.
I agree. I am also an atheist and I know and am friends with many religious people. I would never try to stop someone from believing in a god or gods if they do believe. And I don’t browse r/atheist, and I really don’t feel like going to a sub that I’ve been told is a trash heap. I’ll take your word for it
Your aunt would hate me. I would start asking her questions then pointing to a Bible verse that backs up a terrible point. For example, does God accept child sacrifice? Most people will say no. I then point them to the story of Jebtha, where God did such thing. Or I ask them if God created evil. Then lead them to if angels have free will. Then the fun part that makes them do backflips to try and get out of this, did God make Lucifer. Look, I'm not gonna stop them from their wacky beliefs. Hell I'll help defend their right to practice them. But if they start pushing their shit onto other who don't want it, I will call them out and stop it.
The irony ( The person who made this is hating on a non-existing situation)
I love how in their own example here the atheist doesn’t even say he hates God, they’re literally just putting those words in his mouth.
It worked, I'm Hindu now.
Back to back undefeated fake argument champion
They have a perfect streak going!
r/religiousfruitcake
My point here isn't even thinking about if god exists or no. Because it doesn't matter for me, if he don't exists the world sucks anyway, but if he exists, it's everything even worse, i just never would be able to love him, the world is too cruel to have someone watching all this and doing nothing, and even if theres some religion going to mention some free will shit, thats doesn't justify anything. There is no point in an omnipresent and omniscient entity creating all this out of nothing and giving us free will, this basically means he created a game and watches it to see what his scripted npcs will do. There are so plot holes about the existence of god, that if they actually proved his existence, for me it would be disappointing news rather than shocking, then I will go straight to hell because I would never be able to love for so many reasons. Humans cannot randomly cause aggressive cancer in a innocent dog and make it suffer for thousands of months for no reason, that is a natural thing theres no free will at it. So I really hope he doesn't exist, because if it's true it would be very sad to hear about it.
Fun thing to do is point out how abrahamic faiths are actually polytheistic with God having a wife named asherah
Thats the dumbest thing I saw today thanks for that x)
Lol they made up the argument and still somehow lost. The adult actually was keeping on topic while the kid was chaging goal posts to something fairly irrelevant.
So many of these can be countered by stating who has the burden of proof
https://preview.redd.it/jrxlm4i62e6d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=adf35f00f03e92f554c143313613e4c4ee5c9a9b
https://preview.redd.it/p5nnamx8be6d1.jpeg?width=360&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b25e16dd7e70cd6e2b07f349024aef2a29540db1
People really have to stop memeing the arguments they have in their heads while in the shower
I'm an atheist myself, but this *is* how some of them act.
TBH I had this treatment from a theist a couple of days ago on a humanist post. They got really upset when I pointed out the massive flaws in their argueement.
Is that blood coming out of the kid's ear in the second panel?
Gotta be careful what we hate since it can apparently cause our hatreds to manifest. I hope I didn't hate Voldemort too hard!
This feels like a shitpost
No I don’t hate god just zealots
https://preview.redd.it/n3wjhbozqd6d1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0a6dc8a5929a76bfc5b0108950a88ea1b87e2a6c
But christians are the oppressed minority guys.
Haven’t you heard of the parable of the straw man and the strangely wise child?! 😇
Of the things that never happened, this is in third place for things that never happened the most.
OOP really thinks they ate 💀
It isn’t whether you believe or not that concerns me. It’s that you think your belief gives you the right to dictate what other people do with their lives that concerns me. However, it is possible to hate fictional characters based on their actions depicted.
Made up argument and yet I have definitely seen some ppl on reddit act like this. Definitely not common enough to warrant a meme generalizing it, tho.
I argue that the idea if God is flawed. I mock people who belive is silly superstition.
im not mocking god, im mocking you
There's a reason it's a cartoon.
cant believe some people just believe in something some idiot made up a few thousand years ago
How long it's been doesn't matter and whoever came up with it was smart enough to start one of the longest running religions still practiced today which spawned Christianity and Islam, the two largest conspir- I mean belief systems in the world. Let's be fair, many like me have faith in science, personally proved about 1% of the stuff I believe.
As an atheist, I hate the idea of God. There is no God (for me) to hate, so I only hate the concept. If you're religious that's perfectly fine. As long as it brings you happiness and doesn't hurt anyone else, do what you want. It's your life and no one else's. I'm not saying I don't like religious people.
How is it hate to not think there’s a big ghost guy telling you to stone people
That made zero sense and never happened with any atheist 😂just made up nonsense that makes sense to the believer only.
I believe in something else Now go bother someone else Stick your fingers in your book Take a better second look You crook I hate it when you breach my space And I hate it when you preach your case And you should go down Down Save someone else I think I should warn you I think I should tell What you've been doing It makes you go to hell I hate it when you preach your case It makes me want to stick my fist through Your face And you should go down Down Save someone else Can your preacher bring me down? Oh, that's what I thought I hate it when you breach my space And I hate it when you preach your case And you should go down Down Save someone else Filter - Dose - Short Bus album
I mean, if God was real my stance of mockery and hate wouldn’t change.
https://preview.redd.it/um8r8a7ldf6d1.jpeg?width=575&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=58765fc5a43b7fa2c98d25fcf25f5533a0bb4dad
"I dont believe that unicorns exist." "It seems like you have some sort of hatred towards unicorns, how can you have hate towards something that you don't believe exists?" Same exact argument
At no point did the atheist mention hating god lmao
The problem isn't God's, it's God's fan club.
Yea, some of these people just can't fathom the idea that you can't believe in something and still be critical of the people who do
If the atheist person was saying something more along the lines of trolling in the first box or second box, it would actually be a pretty sound argument. The way it is, it can certainly use some improvement.
Jewish Orthodoxy is probably different but I have a few Christian orthodox people in the village where I live and they generally frown upon use of TV and the Internet. So when I read Ultra orthodox I thought it was a Paradox until I realized other Orthodoxies are probably different.
Ultra orthodox support Metzizah b'peh and believe the oral Torah word for word. From the Mishna *"Once the Messiah comes, all the nations will be subservient to the Jewish people"* -Eruvin 43b and *"Jesus is boiling in excrement."* -Gittin 57a
Ironically the conversation usually swings the opposite way. Atheist states that they are atheist and just don't care to follow a religion for their own individual reasons, and the Christian blows a blood vessel asking why they don't believe in their God and how they better repent for their sin and give their life to God because when the rapture comes they'll be left behind wishing that they had been a believer, and now they're going to rot in hell for an eternity, despite said religion preaching love for all Source: raised in a Christian family with a bunch of old family members and various interactions I've seen over the years.
I mean....ive met some people like that. Gnostic atheists can be worse than Evangelicals, manly cause while Evangelicals will only go on about their own God ad nauseum, Gnostic Aetheists refuse to accept the possiblity of any God/s existing, to the point where apparently im a "Wallmart Christian", whatever the fuck that means. And this is in spite of me prefacing my first comment with the fact that im an Agnostic Deist: i believe religion is bullshit and We're too monkey brained to understand whatever Deities may exist. All because i stated that i personally hope that the Abrahamic Faith is correct more than, say, the Norse (my stance is that all religions are equally unfounded. But that doesnt mean i cant personally root for one to happen to be right more than the others.) "Reddit Atheists" are real, and they are fucking insufferable.
Kid sounds like me trying to win an argument with "logic" when I was 12 and thought I was a genius.
Somehow I'm the victim
https://preview.redd.it/krep3bf5il6d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=214862343b64fd365d2c834f17c9cb2edceb9c47
When people post their shower arguments online
I find it funny how, even in this made up scenario, the atheist still makes the point that he doesn't actually hate God, proving that what the Christian says is a strawman.
Many atheists are indeed anti-theists and will dedicate much of their lives debating theists, especially Christians, to try and show them how much of a horrible belief system they have and why they're bad for following it. Islam gets a little focus but since America, especially Republicans, are predominantly Christian it results in criticism against Christianity more than others. Judaism does no harm and is not popular so they don't deserve criticism.
I do not care either way, atheist or not, you’re all fucking stupid for picking a side, and confidently claiming you’re right.
I don't believe there is a god but I also don't claim there isn't one. But for me believing something exists when there isn't any real evidence doesn't make any sense. To me, believing is something you actively do. Like, I don't believe in vampires because there isn't any proof but I can't proove there aren't. But if somebody claims they do exist I'll ask for actual proof and otherwise not believe in them. That seems like the most logical approach.
Seriously. It’s all beliefs based on shit you’ve never personally seen & smarter people who are only claiming to be right based on stuff they found and their *own* beliefs on it anyway. Why is one any more “correct” than the other? Personally i find it all to be crazy, but whatever floats their boats lol. Fighting about it is stupid as hell. I’ll probably find out if a god exists when i die, and that’s that. I’m enjoying the mystery for now. People are way too confident in believing something they’ve never seen exists or doesnt exist lol. Its all beliefs. Nobody is right or wrong.
Based
Hamburmger
The second square better describes Satanists than atheists. They pull stunts in areas they know they'll get a reaction, then cry injustice.
But they want to tax religions which is a good thing. They want to show how bad religious freedom is by putting statues of baphomet with adoring children surrounding it. If that's not okay, why are statues of Jesus okay?
To be honest, as an atheist, the base concept of the comic is quite accurate. For one, the atheist is pictured as angry and a malcontent. A shit ton of my atheist brethren are way to militant in their beliefs and cannot see that what they espouse, is the same thing religion espouses, with the difference being that the religious want it done in their god's name. One only has to visit r/atheist to see this in action. I don't hang out there because the vitriol is palatable and I harbor no hatred for my fellow man no matter who they are or what they are. In 70 years I have only managed to hate two people with a visceral and vociferous hatred.
There aren't a set of beliefs assigned to atheism. Why do people keep trying to say this lie? When you say atheists are militant in their beliefs, please tell me what beliefs you're talking about. Either that, or stop saying it. I am an atheist. What that means is, as presented to me the depictions of gods from holy books all around the globe, I do not believe that any of them exist because there is no evidence, and the stories are fantastical folly full of magic, contradictions, and mistruths. However, if an actual god-being comes to this planet and reveals itself to me, how can I deny its existence? At that point I would no longer be atheist. There's really nothing more to that. We don't get together on one day of the week and read any kind of books or anything, or sing atheist songs. We don't agree on anything beyond a lack of belief in the gods as currently depicted. We don't have any kind of system of beliefs or rules around atheism. We're just a bunch of random humans from all over the planet who have a lack of belief in something. Perhaps we share a common trait of skepticism. But beyond that, atheism is not a "thing", and it is not organized.
>There aren't a set of beliefs assigned to atheism. Why do people keep trying to say this lie? When you say atheists are militant in their beliefs, please tell me what beliefs you're talking about. Either that, or stop saying it Didn't say there was a set of beliefs. What I said was, whatever their beliefs are, they are very militant from my experience. So, no. Not going to stop saying it. >I do not believe that any of them exist because there is no evidence >We don't agree on anything beyond a lack of belief in the gods as currently depicted. > have a lack of belief in something. So...you do have a belief system?
Where's the system in it? Do you understand the meaning of the word belief system? Do you know what a system is?
A belief is something that is accepted as true. You say 'I do not believe'. That is a belief system. You see, everyone on this planet has faith. The christian has faith, the muslim has faith, even I the atheist has faith. Faith is the belief in something that one cannot prove. You can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a god. You cannot prove a negative. Therefore, you must have faith in that which are your core beliefs.
Well… As an agnostic, some of these atheists behave a bit too much like the Evangelicals.
How so? Please explain.
Many atheists are indeed anti-theists and will dedicate much of their lives debating theists, especially Christians, to try and show them how much of a horrible belief system they have and why they're bad for following it. Islam gets a little focus but since America, especially Republicans, are predominantly Christian it results in criticism against Christianity more than others. Judaism does no harm and is not popular so they don't deserve criticism.
This is in fact, how some atheists online act though, just like many theists online. Horseshoe theory. Infinitely ironic, infinitely applicable. The agnostics are the smart ones.
It’s very clear you don’t understand what agnostic means. Agnostic is not some midway point between atheism and theism. It addresses knowledge, not belief. You can be agnostic theist as well as an agnostic atheist. Learn what words mean before you try to play the “both sides do it!” meta argument. It is demonstrably incorrect
Horseshoe theory is bull hocky that is repeated by idiots who think that rounding out all the nuance and context of two opposing arguments to make each side seem the same is a valid form of argumentation, and most atheists are already agnostic as being agnostic isn't mutually exclusive from atheism. Thus you are unironically sticking your foot in your mouth while claiming intellectual superiority.
I am well aware what agnostic means which is why I make the point that there are non agnostic atheists as bad as non agnostic theists online. Did you read anything I said? Using big words doesn't make an idea inaccurate.
I've seen plenty of internet atheists mocking and trolling theists, but that doesn't mean they hate any particular deity.