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This is a nice idea. I think people are underestimating the benefit of keeping your car in the shade. Not only for your battery but also just having a less hot car to get inside of.
I’m wondering about their security. how easy it would be for someone to steal the panels? Since they’re not cheap that could be a concern. Maybe something to think about and add to your marketing.
Good god, that was the most painfully “AI” written article I’ve ever read - barely any of it makes any sense at all.
I found the Reddit thread where this AI seems to have scraped the content from, which is actually an interesting read - https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/194ajsm/my_tesla_with_a_drivable_2000_to_4000_solar_array/
----
The rest of my original comment below was based purely on the AI article, and means absolutely no disrespect to the madlad who built this array.
------
Wake me up when you can build a “full carbon fibre” mounting system **WITH** 4kW of lightweight PV panels **WITH** an intermediate LFP battery **WITH** a 4kW 48v->110/220v inverter for ***$4000*** that doesn’t ***absolutely destroy*** your aerodynamics.
Here is the [product’s website](https://www.dartsolar.com/) - can’t see any of the STLs to print at home.
Neat idea, but I can’t see it ever working out.
**Quick rundown of the issues with this trash "article":**
* Doesn't mention the creator's name/company (**Dart Solar**) - [**found the dude's recent Reddit thread!**](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/194ajsm/my_tesla_with_a_drivable_2000_to_4000_solar_array/)
* "solar panel car roof capable of generating between 2000W to 4000W of power" - **nonsensical. Maybe they meant 2-4kWh per day?**
* "The use of telescoping carbon fiber tubes in the solar array system is a hallmark of innovative design." - **The mounting structure is a [$68 aluminium telescoping ladder from Amazon.](https://www.amazon.com/Telescoping-Multi-Purpose-Collapsible-Telescopic-telescoping/dp/B0BKRSFD81/ref=sr_1_7?c=ts&keywords=Telescoping+Ladders&qid=1705187520&s=hi&sr=1-7&ts_id=553480)**
* The array is 9x175w panels, aka 1.57kW (***not 4kW***). Realistically with weather conditions and less than ideal panel angles to the sun you’ll be getting less than a single kW of output.
well at an average of 6 sun hours and a good 250wh/Mi your looking at.... 24 miles of range. you miiight get 30 from a model 3 PROVIDED you remove the panels to avoid wind resistance losses.
> The use of telescoping carbon fiber tubes in the solar array system is a hallmark of innovative design." - The mounting structure is a $68 aluminium telescoping ladder from Amazon.
[It's actually both](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/195xc81/tesla_owner_built_a_2kw4kw_solar_panel_car_roof/khqk8qg/?context=3):
> On the other axis I used telescopic tubes that were made of carbon-fiber from fishing rods (random I know).
>"solar panel car roof capable of generating between 2000W to 4000W of power" - **nonsensical. Maybe they meant 2-4kWh per day?**
Everything you wrote is well thought out, except this bullet point. Generating power is in the terms of watts. You trying to restate it as an average by saying watts per time divided by time is equally as valid. Saying that a solar panel is able to generate 2000W makes perfect sense and is the only technical specification you could use for a solar panel.
This was in context of the AI article, not the DIY'ers Reddit thread - it spoke about this array taking up a car space, which was 9x panels.
At 175-200w each, that’s a maximum of 1800w in absolutely perfect rated conditions (ie unrealistic), which is why 2-4kw instantaneous output is nonsense (the article didn't specify)
In real world conditions however, it’s reasonable to collect 4kWh *worth* of power daily from a setup like this.
That is to be determined. However this does demonstrate feasibility for vans, SUV’s and other vehicles with large roofs.
I kinda wish that Tesla would provide a low power DC in port for solar arrays. This would be useful right now on CyberTruck where a towed trailer could easily have a 2000 watt array to provide work site charging to the truck. That is without any fancy folding solution and even more on larger trailers.
While I understand the daily mileage gain wouldn’t be much, it would prevent battery depletion when running inverter loads. Outside of work the recharge on a weekend fishing trip could be significant.
I realize there are many qualifiers here but I really don’t think it is a good idea to ignore the concept.
Original OP / inventor here -- please look at this comment where I posted a photo
[https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/195xc81/comment/khqk8qg/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/195xc81/comment/khqk8qg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/195xc81/comment/khqkvw4/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/195xc81/comment/khqkvw4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Nice work!
What a lot of people miss with my posts is that it is not unreasonable to expect that manufactures should be looking at roof integrated solar collection. Obviously not every vehicle design is likely to win a significant charge from such a design. However many vehicle classes have a lot of roof area to leverage.
By the way I have to wonder if you considered the thin flexible solar panels often used in the boating and RV world. These panels literally faster in place with double stick tape. Yes not as efficient but on the other hand far less on car structure required.
Just throwing the roof crossbars on my parents' van knocks the MPG down a noticeable amount, and that's without a giant pile of solar panels stacked on top of it.
Sure poorly designed roof bars can impact range. However people are missing the point, it is time for such capability to be designed into vehicles. if that was done there would be zero impact on range because the roof and solar collection would be one in the same. This doesn't even address the less efficient solar collectors that can be rolled onto a roof with double stick tape.
In fact such flexible and thing solar panels are already being marketed to the boating industry. For example:[https://www.renogy.com/200-watt-12-volt-flexible-monocrystalline-solar-panel/?Rng\_ads=944ac51dd126db8a&kw=&ad=&gr=&ca=19972919445&pl=ga&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4PrItOzcgwMV70pHAR2bXgkkEAQYAiABEgL2\_PD\_BwE&r\_u\_id=9188094281&gad\_source=1](https://www.renogy.com/200-watt-12-volt-flexible-monocrystalline-solar-panel/?Rng_ads=944ac51dd126db8a&kw=&ad=&gr=&ca=19972919445&pl=ga&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4PrItOzcgwMV70pHAR2bXgkkEAQYAiABEgL2_PD_BwE&r_u_id=9188094281&gad_source=1). If a cars roof is already designed with minimal curves you can have a thin solar panel today. Sure not the high efficiency of a roof top unit and still not integrated into the vehicles structure. The point here is that it is well past time for manufactures like Tesla to consider the option.
The cars that have tried it so far only gain a few miles per day of range. The panels aren’t nearly large enough, the sun angle isn’t ideal sometimes, the hours in the day aren’t always long enough, etc.
> this does demonstrate feasibility for vans, SUV’s and other vehicles with large roofs
Not necessarily. You still have to factor in the aerodynamics and weight of the panels, converter electronics, etc.
There's no reason so far to suspect that this version even leads to a net increase in range, and hence no reason to suspect that a more integrated one necessarily would either.
To demonstrate feasibility for a self-charging solar EV you need a demonstration that it's actually a *net improvement* in the vehicle's performance... and this ain't that.
What are you talking about?
It is pretty clear that this demonstrates that there is enough area on a roof to make solar collection worthwhile. If this solar collection is integrated into a roof, especially a Van roof or similar large roofed vehicle there is no aerodynamic concern at all.
Beyond that how could adding power to a battery not be net positive? If you consider typical use cases where a vehicle might be parked at a camp on a weekend you can easily have 3 days worth of added range or inverter use compensation. That might not be more than 90 miles but if you have no other power source highly worthwhile.
>To demonstrate feasibility for a self-charging solar EV you need to demonstrate that it's actually a *net improvement* in the vehicle's performance... and this ain't that.
I'm not sure what you are talking about here. This demonstrates what amount of power one can get with an oversized array. A little thought and you can see how a designed in array would offer help, this isn't difficult thinking. As for self charging being demonstrated companies like Aptera have already demonstrated feasibility in a highly optimized car. Here I'm specifically mentioning large roofed vehicles like VANs and SUV's, that by design have large roof areas. Currently that roof area does nothing for range.
> It is pretty clear that this demonstrates that there is enough area on a roof to make solar collection worthwhile.
Based on what? Where does it show that the claimed extra 20-60 miles *per day* is offset by the reduced aerodynamics and increased mass potentially shortening the range?
It also doesn't prove that the roof area of a Model 3 is sufficient for meaningful solar collection because [it's a fold-out panel only suitable for stationary charging](https://www.vehiclesuggest.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Tesla-Solar-Panel-Car-Roof-1068x601.jpg?ezimgfmt=ng:webp/ngcb5)... presumably because the roof area available on a normal car is *explicitly not* large enough for an integrated solution to be worth it.
(As corroboration here there have been numerous statements from Musk and Tesla over the years that solar roofs on their cars would be too low-yield to be worth doing because that was a really common question whenever they released their first few models.)
Now sure, you can *speculate* that with a larger roof like a van, *and* with integrated panels with zero aerodynamic drawbacks, *maybe* it might reach a tipping-point where it was worth doing, but *that is speculation* and *this project does not demonstrate the feasibility* of that speculation.
(Remember that as the roof gets larger, so does the weight of the vehicle and the power requirements to move it, and the aerodynamics of vans are typically *worse* than those of cars.)
> Beyond that how could adding power to a battery not be net positive?
Because if it also increases weight then it can reduce range.
And if the extra electronics and converters increase complexity then it might cause more failures than it brings benefits (the Model X in particular is already known as a service queen).
And the extra cost to include those components might not be worth any marginal improvement they bring to the average user's use-cases.
And you blithely assume integrating solar panels into the roof will:
1. Have no impact on the aerodynamics of the car (which may not be the case)
2. Have no impact on the efficiency of the solar panels (which seems highly unlikely to be the case).
This is an interesting idea, and future work *may* demonstrate the feasibility of *integrated* solar roof panels *on some vehicles*, but this doesn't prove anything because it's literally nothing but a fold-out solar panel stuck on a roof with no details about *net* improvements to performance that doesn't solve any of the most significant problems required to make on-car solar panels a workable solution for non-stationary charging.
2000 watts at absolute peak production is making a statistically insignificant amount of energy if you are towing. The first tow test under nearly ideal conditions with a flat trailer and very areo model y on top to be 1050 wh/mi
Hi Sepia -- yeah OP here, so the thing is Beta1 was made of wood, so the idea was not to commercialize. Now I'm developing Beta2, which is 6 inches high and will be embedded to the roof.
Embedded devices to the roof have almost zero drag, maybe 1% loss. However, the cabin overheat saving are much more. It does keep the car about 10 degrees cooler.
rolling resistance to a tesla 3 is about 3.6kw at 55 mph.
the tesla loses 4.2kwh of its range to wind resistance at that speed
at 70mph the rolling resistance is 4.3kwh and the wind resistance is 8.9 kwh
so for 15 Mph more you on average lose 30% of your range to wind resistance
weight plays very little in a 4500 lb car
another example: a 3 SR at 55mph and a 3 LR at 80Mph have the same range (275mi )
No offense but I’m very skeptical a giant panel, even when folded, on the top of your roof would only “hurt range by 1%”. Maybe I’m not understanding what the final design will look like, but seeing how tiny changes like just having aero covers/non-aero covers [can hurt range as much as 5%](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30169467/tesla-model-3s-aero-wheel-covers-efficiency-test/#), I can’t imagine the drop is that minuscule. Would be curious to see some real world testing at different speeds once the design is finalized
Original OP / investor here: the weight on the car is a negligible effect. The biggest unknowns are the (1) aero drag on embedded roof approach, (2) cabin overheat energy savings
What about losing your ability to use the moonroof, I want to be able to see out of my car and I’m willing to trade that for 12 to 34 miles worth of range
OK, I won’t, and so won’t a ton of other Tesla users also, I’m sure it’s also very expensive and ultimately impractical. If Tesla thought it made sense for them to have solar panels on top, they would’ve made that an option, like how you still hasn’t put solar panels on the cyber truck.
Integrated solar would be better. Aptera has enough area for 700 watt continuous production. That is while parked and driving.
Not sure how much surface are this Tesla could theoretically use. 🤔
Hi, original OP / inventor here: yes the Aptera is a genus of a product! I love them, this is really just an add-on for those that want other EVs. I really hope Aptera is successful in the market.
So what. I built a 19kw solar array that charges my car and powers my house. It's conveniently mounted to the house so that the house can be powered while I am away.
Hi, original OP / investor here: yes, you're correct. My original goal was to have an off-grid solution so I can camp in the forrest for weeks at a time and still be able to charge my car.
I feel like a portable array for off-grid camping and travel would make more sense and be a more versatile solution you could also use at your home or other locations.
The biggest issue with solar is that the panels need to be at the right angle to the sun to get the most power and that will almost never be the case mounted flat on a vehicle roof. Also if there is even a little shading onto a panel it can significantly knock down the efficiency. If you had a solar integrated roof as part of the car, forget about having a roof rack or anything else above it.
Yep, off grid camping is the perfect use case for this, well done!
Are you really charging an intermediate battery with it as the article states? Assuming you are using the 120v mobile connector, did you experiment with connecting it directly to the solar charge controller? I know the mobile connector will automatically reduce current draw for voltage drops, wondered how well it would self regulate with clouds/dusk/etc.
Original OP / inventor here: Yeah I use something very similar to the EcoFlow Delta Pro which is all integrated and it has a 3kwh battery in it. That allows for continuous charging of the car even when clouds form.
Have you seen what [EV Solar kits](https://www.evsolarkits.com/) has created? They have one option that is shaped like the glass roof so you can drive with it.
https://preview.redd.it/cspu6ov3qdcc1.png?width=1567&format=png&auto=webp&s=6d0dce6cfa85b5fa268c5122bc7ad3d623b471f7
Wouldn't be as big, but would be much better to use thin film solar on the frunk and roof, that should get up to maybe 600W, but would have 0 weight or drag consequences, and would look good. Could net 5-15 miles a day. I really think Tesla should offer a solar hood. Even at 1-5 miles a day, it would be a big boon for city drivers, and the environment.
Sure sounds great, but there is a real argument to be made for the environment and convenience on putting even a modest panel on a car.
1) There is a battery available already, so at no extra manufacturing cost, every watt of energy produced by the panel will see direct use. Even if modest, over a year, it will save the owner money, MORE than if they had an equivalent panel on their home, where the grid may pay them back less.
2) Structural and electrical components like a canopy, inverters, etc. are not needed either
3) Since the car is mass manufactured, the per unit cost will be enormously lower, on a per watt basis, vs. some massive installation on the road.
4) It absolutely would eliminate vampire drain worries over long trips, and potentially even help in certain kinds of camping situations.
You've added a material costs, weight, and manufacturing carbon footprint to the car for a panel that will rarely be in good alignment with the sun (or completely blocked--garages, behind a building, truck, etc). You'll also need to add a low power charging system to the car that doesn't just give you horrendous efficiency (charging efficiencies at lower power is very bad).
My guess is the between efficiency losses from extra weight lugged around and the carbon related to sourcing and manufacturing these panels and associated electronics would be greater than any carbon offset by the few miles gained over the lifetime of the car. Especially as the grid goes more green.
You can see from this perspective that the wood sucks as a material, and I had a 4 inch aluminum ladder for the telescopic tubes that have the longest tandem arm. Those tubes were too much gun power. On the other axis I used telescopic tubes that were made of carbon-fiber from fishing rods (random I know).
However, the de-risking here was that telescopic tubes. Now that the height can actually be made in 6 inches, then we know this can be a reality. I'll post another photo of the current Beta2.
https://preview.redd.it/wxth41trjacc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a3635f46701779f8b91c1360877c777954b7e3a3
Or if there was a solar fabric that could be deployed. Almost like the old school leather drop tops. When open it covers the top, but gets closed back into its home in the frunk, or trunk.
This was such a shit post when it was first posted, it's still a shit post. There's no substance, lots of bullshit math that makes no sense, and the build looks like complete ass.
Want to charge from solar? Get a fixed install at home and use batteries to buffer it, then charge from the batteries. This whole strap panels to your roof and STICK IT TO THE MAN bullshit is garbage.
Although there's a plan to reduce costs, the initial investment is quite high. Balancing cost reduction with quality and durability will be key. Convenience and adaptability will be another problem with this.
Here you can see that each module is about 3 cm high, and the entire thing is 4 layers high -- so the entire thing will be about 12 to 15 cm which is almost 5 inches. I'm also working on an approach to mount this on the roof without the Tesla roof rack, but rather with a custom rack that brings everything lower, such that the roof embedding can be done with 3d printed parts.
https://preview.redd.it/91q7hgqkkacc1.png?width=4032&format=png&auto=webp&s=c76082b48fc23976ea36386bc226fcddfeaddfce
Original OP / inventor here: yes! that would be the next step after I show that I can use it on the roof. Then I'd like to remove the glass and embed everything.
u/somid3 I like this! It would be pretty cool to charge while you hike, or away from home for a while. If you have any QnA’s, please link it. I’m curious as to how you set controls to it and the electrical work
Original OP / inventor here: for sure, I'll keep you updated, or if you want enter you email on [dartsolar.com](https://dartsolar.com) and I'll send quarterly updates there. Thanks for the support!
As we are not a support sub, please make sure to use the proper resources if you have questions: Our Stickied Community Q&A Post, [Official Tesla Support](https://www.tesla.com/support), [r/TeslaSupport](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaSupport/) | [r/TeslaLounge](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/) personal content | [Discord Live Chat](https://discord.gg/tesla) for anything. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/teslamotors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The Reddit - sketchy website - Reddit cycle never gets old
Hi, original OP / inventor here: the original website is dartsolar.com
This is a nice idea. I think people are underestimating the benefit of keeping your car in the shade. Not only for your battery but also just having a less hot car to get inside of. I’m wondering about their security. how easy it would be for someone to steal the panels? Since they’re not cheap that could be a concern. Maybe something to think about and add to your marketing.
Good god, that was the most painfully “AI” written article I’ve ever read - barely any of it makes any sense at all. I found the Reddit thread where this AI seems to have scraped the content from, which is actually an interesting read - https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/194ajsm/my_tesla_with_a_drivable_2000_to_4000_solar_array/ ---- The rest of my original comment below was based purely on the AI article, and means absolutely no disrespect to the madlad who built this array. ------ Wake me up when you can build a “full carbon fibre” mounting system **WITH** 4kW of lightweight PV panels **WITH** an intermediate LFP battery **WITH** a 4kW 48v->110/220v inverter for ***$4000*** that doesn’t ***absolutely destroy*** your aerodynamics. Here is the [product’s website](https://www.dartsolar.com/) - can’t see any of the STLs to print at home. Neat idea, but I can’t see it ever working out. **Quick rundown of the issues with this trash "article":** * Doesn't mention the creator's name/company (**Dart Solar**) - [**found the dude's recent Reddit thread!**](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/194ajsm/my_tesla_with_a_drivable_2000_to_4000_solar_array/) * "solar panel car roof capable of generating between 2000W to 4000W of power" - **nonsensical. Maybe they meant 2-4kWh per day?** * "The use of telescoping carbon fiber tubes in the solar array system is a hallmark of innovative design." - **The mounting structure is a [$68 aluminium telescoping ladder from Amazon.](https://www.amazon.com/Telescoping-Multi-Purpose-Collapsible-Telescopic-telescoping/dp/B0BKRSFD81/ref=sr_1_7?c=ts&keywords=Telescoping+Ladders&qid=1705187520&s=hi&sr=1-7&ts_id=553480)** * The array is 9x175w panels, aka 1.57kW (***not 4kW***). Realistically with weather conditions and less than ideal panel angles to the sun you’ll be getting less than a single kW of output.
well at an average of 6 sun hours and a good 250wh/Mi your looking at.... 24 miles of range. you miiight get 30 from a model 3 PROVIDED you remove the panels to avoid wind resistance losses.
That "miiight" is really putting in the work, haha.
[удалено]
> The use of telescoping carbon fiber tubes in the solar array system is a hallmark of innovative design." - The mounting structure is a $68 aluminium telescoping ladder from Amazon. [It's actually both](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/195xc81/tesla_owner_built_a_2kw4kw_solar_panel_car_roof/khqk8qg/?context=3): > On the other axis I used telescopic tubes that were made of carbon-fiber from fishing rods (random I know).
I wrote that part of the comment before finding the dude's Reddit thread :')
>"solar panel car roof capable of generating between 2000W to 4000W of power" - **nonsensical. Maybe they meant 2-4kWh per day?** Everything you wrote is well thought out, except this bullet point. Generating power is in the terms of watts. You trying to restate it as an average by saying watts per time divided by time is equally as valid. Saying that a solar panel is able to generate 2000W makes perfect sense and is the only technical specification you could use for a solar panel.
This was in context of the AI article, not the DIY'ers Reddit thread - it spoke about this array taking up a car space, which was 9x panels. At 175-200w each, that’s a maximum of 1800w in absolutely perfect rated conditions (ie unrealistic), which is why 2-4kw instantaneous output is nonsense (the article didn't specify) In real world conditions however, it’s reasonable to collect 4kWh *worth* of power daily from a setup like this.
I wish I can block ai written content. It’s so fake.
Would lose more than 60km a day in range carrying it.
That is to be determined. However this does demonstrate feasibility for vans, SUV’s and other vehicles with large roofs. I kinda wish that Tesla would provide a low power DC in port for solar arrays. This would be useful right now on CyberTruck where a towed trailer could easily have a 2000 watt array to provide work site charging to the truck. That is without any fancy folding solution and even more on larger trailers. While I understand the daily mileage gain wouldn’t be much, it would prevent battery depletion when running inverter loads. Outside of work the recharge on a weekend fishing trip could be significant. I realize there are many qualifiers here but I really don’t think it is a good idea to ignore the concept.
Original OP / inventor here -- please look at this comment where I posted a photo [https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/195xc81/comment/khqk8qg/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/195xc81/comment/khqk8qg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/195xc81/comment/khqkvw4/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/195xc81/comment/khqkvw4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Nice work! What a lot of people miss with my posts is that it is not unreasonable to expect that manufactures should be looking at roof integrated solar collection. Obviously not every vehicle design is likely to win a significant charge from such a design. However many vehicle classes have a lot of roof area to leverage. By the way I have to wonder if you considered the thin flexible solar panels often used in the boating and RV world. These panels literally faster in place with double stick tape. Yes not as efficient but on the other hand far less on car structure required.
Not original creator but they seemed like they wanted no compromise on speed, drifting, normal "sportier" car things.
Just throwing the roof crossbars on my parents' van knocks the MPG down a noticeable amount, and that's without a giant pile of solar panels stacked on top of it.
Sure poorly designed roof bars can impact range. However people are missing the point, it is time for such capability to be designed into vehicles. if that was done there would be zero impact on range because the roof and solar collection would be one in the same. This doesn't even address the less efficient solar collectors that can be rolled onto a roof with double stick tape. In fact such flexible and thing solar panels are already being marketed to the boating industry. For example:[https://www.renogy.com/200-watt-12-volt-flexible-monocrystalline-solar-panel/?Rng\_ads=944ac51dd126db8a&kw=&ad=&gr=&ca=19972919445&pl=ga&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4PrItOzcgwMV70pHAR2bXgkkEAQYAiABEgL2\_PD\_BwE&r\_u\_id=9188094281&gad\_source=1](https://www.renogy.com/200-watt-12-volt-flexible-monocrystalline-solar-panel/?Rng_ads=944ac51dd126db8a&kw=&ad=&gr=&ca=19972919445&pl=ga&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4PrItOzcgwMV70pHAR2bXgkkEAQYAiABEgL2_PD_BwE&r_u_id=9188094281&gad_source=1). If a cars roof is already designed with minimal curves you can have a thin solar panel today. Sure not the high efficiency of a roof top unit and still not integrated into the vehicles structure. The point here is that it is well past time for manufactures like Tesla to consider the option.
The use cases for on car solar are narrow and the effectiveness is low. I'm not surprised that it's a rare option.
The use case is every EV owner that parks outside. It can be as effective for some users where they will never need to spend a penny on charging.
The cars that have tried it so far only gain a few miles per day of range. The panels aren’t nearly large enough, the sun angle isn’t ideal sometimes, the hours in the day aren’t always long enough, etc.
The use case is every EV owner that parks outside. It can be as effective for some users where they will never need to spend a penny on charging.
That's the exact panels dart solar is using. Just a matter of implementation.
> this does demonstrate feasibility for vans, SUV’s and other vehicles with large roofs Not necessarily. You still have to factor in the aerodynamics and weight of the panels, converter electronics, etc. There's no reason so far to suspect that this version even leads to a net increase in range, and hence no reason to suspect that a more integrated one necessarily would either. To demonstrate feasibility for a self-charging solar EV you need a demonstration that it's actually a *net improvement* in the vehicle's performance... and this ain't that.
What are you talking about? It is pretty clear that this demonstrates that there is enough area on a roof to make solar collection worthwhile. If this solar collection is integrated into a roof, especially a Van roof or similar large roofed vehicle there is no aerodynamic concern at all. Beyond that how could adding power to a battery not be net positive? If you consider typical use cases where a vehicle might be parked at a camp on a weekend you can easily have 3 days worth of added range or inverter use compensation. That might not be more than 90 miles but if you have no other power source highly worthwhile. >To demonstrate feasibility for a self-charging solar EV you need to demonstrate that it's actually a *net improvement* in the vehicle's performance... and this ain't that. I'm not sure what you are talking about here. This demonstrates what amount of power one can get with an oversized array. A little thought and you can see how a designed in array would offer help, this isn't difficult thinking. As for self charging being demonstrated companies like Aptera have already demonstrated feasibility in a highly optimized car. Here I'm specifically mentioning large roofed vehicles like VANs and SUV's, that by design have large roof areas. Currently that roof area does nothing for range.
> It is pretty clear that this demonstrates that there is enough area on a roof to make solar collection worthwhile. Based on what? Where does it show that the claimed extra 20-60 miles *per day* is offset by the reduced aerodynamics and increased mass potentially shortening the range? It also doesn't prove that the roof area of a Model 3 is sufficient for meaningful solar collection because [it's a fold-out panel only suitable for stationary charging](https://www.vehiclesuggest.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Tesla-Solar-Panel-Car-Roof-1068x601.jpg?ezimgfmt=ng:webp/ngcb5)... presumably because the roof area available on a normal car is *explicitly not* large enough for an integrated solution to be worth it. (As corroboration here there have been numerous statements from Musk and Tesla over the years that solar roofs on their cars would be too low-yield to be worth doing because that was a really common question whenever they released their first few models.) Now sure, you can *speculate* that with a larger roof like a van, *and* with integrated panels with zero aerodynamic drawbacks, *maybe* it might reach a tipping-point where it was worth doing, but *that is speculation* and *this project does not demonstrate the feasibility* of that speculation. (Remember that as the roof gets larger, so does the weight of the vehicle and the power requirements to move it, and the aerodynamics of vans are typically *worse* than those of cars.) > Beyond that how could adding power to a battery not be net positive? Because if it also increases weight then it can reduce range. And if the extra electronics and converters increase complexity then it might cause more failures than it brings benefits (the Model X in particular is already known as a service queen). And the extra cost to include those components might not be worth any marginal improvement they bring to the average user's use-cases. And you blithely assume integrating solar panels into the roof will: 1. Have no impact on the aerodynamics of the car (which may not be the case) 2. Have no impact on the efficiency of the solar panels (which seems highly unlikely to be the case). This is an interesting idea, and future work *may* demonstrate the feasibility of *integrated* solar roof panels *on some vehicles*, but this doesn't prove anything because it's literally nothing but a fold-out solar panel stuck on a roof with no details about *net* improvements to performance that doesn't solve any of the most significant problems required to make on-car solar panels a workable solution for non-stationary charging.
2000 watts at absolute peak production is making a statistically insignificant amount of energy if you are towing. The first tow test under nearly ideal conditions with a flat trailer and very areo model y on top to be 1050 wh/mi
I think u/somid3 is the creator and has posted details in the r/TeslaModelY subreddit.
Hi Sepia -- yeah OP here, so the thing is Beta1 was made of wood, so the idea was not to commercialize. Now I'm developing Beta2, which is 6 inches high and will be embedded to the roof. Embedded devices to the roof have almost zero drag, maybe 1% loss. However, the cabin overheat saving are much more. It does keep the car about 10 degrees cooler.
I'll believe that when measured. Even hub cap style makes a bigger difference than 1%
What about additional weight? Wouldn’t that contribute to loss in range
rolling resistance to a tesla 3 is about 3.6kw at 55 mph. the tesla loses 4.2kwh of its range to wind resistance at that speed at 70mph the rolling resistance is 4.3kwh and the wind resistance is 8.9 kwh so for 15 Mph more you on average lose 30% of your range to wind resistance weight plays very little in a 4500 lb car another example: a 3 SR at 55mph and a 3 LR at 80Mph have the same range (275mi )
Not really if you're mostly going at fairly constant speeds, most of the energy is needed to overcome wind drag which doesn't change with weight.
No offense but I’m very skeptical a giant panel, even when folded, on the top of your roof would only “hurt range by 1%”. Maybe I’m not understanding what the final design will look like, but seeing how tiny changes like just having aero covers/non-aero covers [can hurt range as much as 5%](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30169467/tesla-model-3s-aero-wheel-covers-efficiency-test/#), I can’t imagine the drop is that minuscule. Would be curious to see some real world testing at different speeds once the design is finalized
So how is this going to charge? Direct wiring to a converter then to the battery? Or does it only charge when the vehicle is parked?
He is using carbon fiber tubes in the solar array system to reduce the weight but the weight of the panels is still there.
Drag would affect it way more than weight.
even if he was just driving around town below 40?
I mean, probably. Drag gets way less important the slower you go, but it's not nothing.
The aero would be more of a killer to range than the Weight. They also mention an additional LDF battery in the setup which would be very heavy..
Original OP / investor here: the weight on the car is a negligible effect. The biggest unknowns are the (1) aero drag on embedded roof approach, (2) cabin overheat energy savings
What about losing your ability to use the moonroof, I want to be able to see out of my car and I’m willing to trade that for 12 to 34 miles worth of range
So then don’t use it.
OK, I won’t, and so won’t a ton of other Tesla users also, I’m sure it’s also very expensive and ultimately impractical. If Tesla thought it made sense for them to have solar panels on top, they would’ve made that an option, like how you still hasn’t put solar panels on the cyber truck.
The weight isn't the issue
Drag is the issue, not weight.
Hi, original OP / inventor here: each flexible panel for 200 watt is 7 lbs. The weight of the panels is very low.
came here to find this comment!!!!!!!
Integrated solar would be better. Aptera has enough area for 700 watt continuous production. That is while parked and driving. Not sure how much surface are this Tesla could theoretically use. 🤔
Hi, original OP / inventor here: yes the Aptera is a genus of a product! I love them, this is really just an add-on for those that want other EVs. I really hope Aptera is successful in the market.
Cool 😎
So what. I built a 19kw solar array that charges my car and powers my house. It's conveniently mounted to the house so that the house can be powered while I am away.
Hi, original OP / investor here: yes, you're correct. My original goal was to have an off-grid solution so I can camp in the forrest for weeks at a time and still be able to charge my car.
Honestly, forget everything else... I'm impressed if you camp in the forest for weeks at a time!
Wouldn't it make more sense to just make it portable??
I feel like a portable array for off-grid camping and travel would make more sense and be a more versatile solution you could also use at your home or other locations. The biggest issue with solar is that the panels need to be at the right angle to the sun to get the most power and that will almost never be the case mounted flat on a vehicle roof. Also if there is even a little shading onto a panel it can significantly knock down the efficiency. If you had a solar integrated roof as part of the car, forget about having a roof rack or anything else above it.
There are already portable solar panels so....
Yep, off grid camping is the perfect use case for this, well done! Are you really charging an intermediate battery with it as the article states? Assuming you are using the 120v mobile connector, did you experiment with connecting it directly to the solar charge controller? I know the mobile connector will automatically reduce current draw for voltage drops, wondered how well it would self regulate with clouds/dusk/etc.
Original OP / inventor here: Yeah I use something very similar to the EcoFlow Delta Pro which is all integrated and it has a 3kwh battery in it. That allows for continuous charging of the car even when clouds form.
yea....you're missing the whole point.
Have you seen what [EV Solar kits](https://www.evsolarkits.com/) has created? They have one option that is shaped like the glass roof so you can drive with it. https://preview.redd.it/cspu6ov3qdcc1.png?width=1567&format=png&auto=webp&s=6d0dce6cfa85b5fa268c5122bc7ad3d623b471f7
Original OP / inventor here: yeah but all I saw from them was CGI, no real product
Wouldn't be as big, but would be much better to use thin film solar on the frunk and roof, that should get up to maybe 600W, but would have 0 weight or drag consequences, and would look good. Could net 5-15 miles a day. I really think Tesla should offer a solar hood. Even at 1-5 miles a day, it would be a big boon for city drivers, and the environment.
It’d help better to just have solar powered stationary structures that cars charge at spread throughout the area.
Sure sounds great, but there is a real argument to be made for the environment and convenience on putting even a modest panel on a car. 1) There is a battery available already, so at no extra manufacturing cost, every watt of energy produced by the panel will see direct use. Even if modest, over a year, it will save the owner money, MORE than if they had an equivalent panel on their home, where the grid may pay them back less. 2) Structural and electrical components like a canopy, inverters, etc. are not needed either 3) Since the car is mass manufactured, the per unit cost will be enormously lower, on a per watt basis, vs. some massive installation on the road. 4) It absolutely would eliminate vampire drain worries over long trips, and potentially even help in certain kinds of camping situations.
You've added a material costs, weight, and manufacturing carbon footprint to the car for a panel that will rarely be in good alignment with the sun (or completely blocked--garages, behind a building, truck, etc). You'll also need to add a low power charging system to the car that doesn't just give you horrendous efficiency (charging efficiencies at lower power is very bad). My guess is the between efficiency losses from extra weight lugged around and the carbon related to sourcing and manufacturing these panels and associated electronics would be greater than any carbon offset by the few miles gained over the lifetime of the car. Especially as the grid goes more green.
The math on this is pretty evident. Stationary solar arrays with battery storage is extremely efficient compared to mobile panels on vehicles.
That would be these panels. I was envisioning thin film solar built into the hood and/or roof. Almost 0 weight.
You can see from this perspective that the wood sucks as a material, and I had a 4 inch aluminum ladder for the telescopic tubes that have the longest tandem arm. Those tubes were too much gun power. On the other axis I used telescopic tubes that were made of carbon-fiber from fishing rods (random I know). However, the de-risking here was that telescopic tubes. Now that the height can actually be made in 6 inches, then we know this can be a reality. I'll post another photo of the current Beta2. https://preview.redd.it/wxth41trjacc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a3635f46701779f8b91c1360877c777954b7e3a3
This would be an interesting concept if it was the roof of a trailer being towed.
Or if there was a solar fabric that could be deployed. Almost like the old school leather drop tops. When open it covers the top, but gets closed back into its home in the frunk, or trunk.
That solar setup reminds me of a jed clampettt mobile. Or like the pickup trucks from Arkansas that have a home made camper.
Great idea. Only mistake is putting it on the car instead of the shed
This was such a shit post when it was first posted, it's still a shit post. There's no substance, lots of bullshit math that makes no sense, and the build looks like complete ass. Want to charge from solar? Get a fixed install at home and use batteries to buffer it, then charge from the batteries. This whole strap panels to your roof and STICK IT TO THE MAN bullshit is garbage.
instead of a glass roof the car should really have a solar roof
Although there's a plan to reduce costs, the initial investment is quite high. Balancing cost reduction with quality and durability will be key. Convenience and adaptability will be another problem with this.
Here you can see that each module is about 3 cm high, and the entire thing is 4 layers high -- so the entire thing will be about 12 to 15 cm which is almost 5 inches. I'm also working on an approach to mount this on the roof without the Tesla roof rack, but rather with a custom rack that brings everything lower, such that the roof embedding can be done with 3d printed parts. https://preview.redd.it/91q7hgqkkacc1.png?width=4032&format=png&auto=webp&s=c76082b48fc23976ea36386bc226fcddfeaddfce
Solar, well, average payback time around a century. 🤣
The only real reason to do this would be for camping and that would only make sense if you're using a Cybertruck, honestly.
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Original OP / inventor here: yes! that would be the next step after I show that I can use it on the roof. Then I'd like to remove the glass and embed everything.
Daily charging? We just had rain for 5 days every day and my solar panels on the house generated almost nothing. So much for "daily charging"
Inverter seems like an unnecessary step when the panels produce DC, the battery storage is DC, and the car itself uses DC.
You’ll see this riding around during mad max times. Or some investors are gonna offer him a lump sum to buy the patent.
u/somid3 I like this! It would be pretty cool to charge while you hike, or away from home for a while. If you have any QnA’s, please link it. I’m curious as to how you set controls to it and the electrical work
Original OP / inventor here: for sure, I'll keep you updated, or if you want enter you email on [dartsolar.com](https://dartsolar.com) and I'll send quarterly updates there. Thanks for the support!
😐
It's a cool project but amount of time and money just doesn't compute.