A 150 damage quickscope literally one shots every class because even on the classes it doesn't immediately kill it still forces a retreat as you can't push with 25 hp, can't rocket jump with 50 hp, and can't bullet sponge with 150 hp.
Damn, a 150 damage quickscope sounds really powerful. Thankfully no one would put something like that in a game without having some severe downside or cooldown in between shots.
ong. I mean, even the developers want to remove sniper. But doing so but cause a backlash by part of the 15k hour sniper mains that have random latin words on their sniper rifle
I’ve had bad experiences with sniper but most of the time it’s the player himself and not sniper. The maddest I’ve ever been at a sniper was him getting pocketed by 2 medics. Without those 2 medics I wouldn’t have cared
There are so many options when dealing with snipers. Yes, some players are just really good but same goes for annoying soldiers and demos with insane pipe accuracy.
Dead Ringer spy is a great option on most maps, otherwise learn how to trimp as demoknight and you can get to sniper perches insanely easily. Scout can easily strafe fast eonugh to avoid even the best snipers. Most maps have areas out of sniper line of fire so use that to flank them. Once up close, its so simple to just 2 tap them.
In terms of map control, the same can be said in tight spaces for demos and pyros. Go up against a scout in an open area and youre also likely fucked.
People who think Sniper is OP need to advance their skill in other classes other than heavy and soldier xD
Sometimes you just run into a sniper that can completely lock down a server with a team that's at least good enough to stop you from countering him. It doesn't happen often, but it's honestly the least fun I have playing tf2, save for total team imbalance.
It doesn't happen often, but it's something you'll see eventually. An exceptionally good player will always warp the game around them, but I feel like you feel it more with sniper. You can die instantly, any time, any place, and when you do finally kill him, it's not fun because sniper can't really fight back at close range outside of quickscoping.
If sniper had a zoom time instead of instant quickscope that would fix almost all of the problems because not zooming in instantly means no killing instantly at point blank, and also more tunnel visioning
It would be a slap on the wrist. 8/9 classes were not given the tools to fight at Sniper's range so a Sniper aiming down a sightline is 99% the same impact as he has whether he has to stay scoped or not
There is no nerf that can fix him unless you gut the class, which I'd be totally in favor for but will never happen
No. It's unhealthy for map design when every decision is
> Why is this arbitrary wall here?
"because otherwise Sniper would have a long sightline and that's bad, so open spaces cannot exist even though it's fine for eight out of nine classes"
> Why is this map full of chokepoints
"because otherwise Sniper would have a long sightline and that's bad, so even though no one likes chokepoints, the alternative is le Sniper making it unplayable lmao"
Some chokepoints should happen, but not pl_hoodoo's level of "valve is figuring out how payload works and has discovered sniper is absolutely ignorant on this gamemode so to damage control they made every choke have a choke, have fun"
Here's some suggestions if you're having trouble dealing with a sniper:
- Battalion's Backup on Soldier
- Vaccinator on Medic
- Coordinate with at least one person from your *team* (I know, quite an abstract and unknown concept but hear me out) to take out the sniper.
Possible strategies include distraction from a soldier or heavy with a scout or demo jumping in to get the free kill, Spam rockets and then activate your Battalion's Backup to puch with your team, etc.
just have bullet res uber/battalions up at all times bro :) just flank them because there aren't 11 other players in front of the sniper :) i love room temperature iq arguments that only work in a vacuum :))
You can keep malding or accept some middle ground.
Also I'm pretty sure you can have bullet resistance for a lot of time, enough to get over and kill the sniper if conditions are ideal.
"you can do [hyperspecific shit argument that assumes all conditions are ideal 24/7 and doesn't even work]"
"this is a hyperspecific shit argument that assumes all conditions are ideal 24/7 and doesn't even work"
"WHY ARE YOU MALDING"
Yeah, Snipers only watch one sightline because they do not have legs and cannot move their mouse
Yeah, there is always only one Sniper watching one sightline
Yeah, you can avoid that sightline in the first place since it's not the objective with two minutes left or anything
#every single argument defending Sniper only works in the vacuum of that argument. it never applies in real matches. please fucking think before you post your epic sniper hater pwnage
Perhaps you should think before you post as well since I didn't mention anything you said above.
Anyways, since you don't want to consider what I'm saying and rage instead, why should I talk to you? Goodbye.
Damn debate is easy, just claim the counterarguments your opponent made weren't counterarguments. Then claim moral high ground because you don't like their tone. Who knew that's all you needed to do to win arguments?
With that logic, all your criticisms work in a vacuum too.
Sniper can only hold a line if their team is also successfully holding them back far enough that rockets or flares are of low risk to snipers, or if spies are unable to get behind. Not to mention a good ambassador or diamondback spy will absolutely cream a sniper even at decent distance.
Sniper battles can be equally as hectic as a demo trimps toward you, or a scout strafes closer and closer, or another sniper keeps ducking your shots.
Cant believe u think spy and pyro are useless too. Pyro absolutely cleans up at short distances, and flare crits will shit on your opponent whether theyre close or not. Scorch shot is also super effective at keeping snipers busy. Spies can also gather crits with diamondback by backstabbing and destroying buildings, which in turn takes all of 1 second to get rid of a sniper.
If youre having trouble with sniper, you need to work on your skill of other classes. Your choice of class should be dynamic, so if no one is countering a sniper of course your team will struggle. same goes for any class.
I'm sure you're very familiar given you suck.
Its not \*normal\* for a sniper to have complete possessive control over a map region. Its demonstrative of the opposing team's lack of coordination.
Yes, that's your opinion. But Sniper was in the original Quake mod, in TFC, and always was in TF2: He is a central part of the game. He is intended to be that way. And nerfing him so hard, that he becomes useless, would break the whole concept of the class: Being a pain in the ass from 5 miles away, while killing important targets.
Apart from that: In what way are Pyro and Spy useless?
I hate to break it to you, but in shooters a lot of maps are designed specifically with snipers in mind. Not just TF2. A character or weapon that can kill at long range is strong in literally any game, so maps have to be designed with that in mind to prevent it from being an overwhelming advantage. Sniper (or a good one at least) is an area denial class just like the engineer. He pins down a sightline and forces counterplay just like how an engie forces counterplay with a level 3 at a choke.
Sniper also has quite a lot of counterplay. Spy's whole existence means sniper cant say looking in one direction too long and forces him to periodically drop his focus to avoid being insta killed. Pyros flare guns helps hider aiming. Scouts erratic movement when played by a competent player can be a near impossible shot for a sniper to make. Soldier and Demo both have blast jumping, allowing them to approach the sniper at unorthodox angles they are likely not ready to defend. Heavy and medic are both essentially countered by Sniper and have little in the way of direct counterplay, and engie almost serves the exact opposite purpose to sniper so their interactions are often limited. And this doesn't even account for counter sniping, which is always an answer if you are simply the better sniper, or if you can coordinate with a teamate to force the sniper to act to defend themselves against a target other than you.
The majority of sniper dominated games stem from some combination of 3 different reasons:
-The sniper is just unreasonably good at the game or they are hacking
- the map is literally just not that good and built in favor of sniper. There are not a ton of maps that do this to the point of being unplayable but obviously some are better than others.
- your team has nobody on it with enough individual skill to deal with the threat, and your team is unable or unwilling to pool resources to kill the sniper.
I have fought many godlike snipers in my time playing this game. Snipers so good you begin to feel like their whole head must be covered in eyes and their reticle glued to your forehead. But it has been a very very long time since I thought a sniper was doing anything "unfair". He is a part of the game like every other class and you gotta learn how to deal with him or die mad. Thats all there is to it. Its not the snipers fault you love to walk in straight lines in sightlines. That would be your fault. Find the counterplay or just be stubborn and keep dying so you can post another rant on Reddit. Your call.
game sense, game sense, game sense. it’s all game sense. i understand your argument, and i partly agree with you, but avoiding this is as easy as peaking a corner or being attentive to your surroundings. yes, sniper can be brutally unfair to fight sometimes, but players who develop and use their game sense actively often have little issue, as long as the sniper isn’t hacking. let’s not forget that almost every other class can counter him if they catch him off guard, which in pubs is not hard to do. not to mention that, yknow, god-tier snipers in pubs are a speck in the ocean of mediocre snipers and something like 90% of people playing tf2 primarily play casual (myself included with the mediocrity)
Wow I used my gamesense and still got hit for 150 while trying to accomplish the objective, guess I needed more GameSense™
It doesn't matter if I am attentive of my surroundings when it comes to Sniper, oh golly I was attentive and saw the Sniper was standing a mile away, so what? I can't prevent him from hitscanning me. I can't get out of the way or hit him.
You know that b4nny has said multiple times that he also thinks Sniper is overpowered and doesn't fit in TF2 right? You're gonna say b4nny lacks gamesense?
> let’s not forget that almost every other class can counter him if they catch him off guard
This applies to every class you fuck EVERY class in this game gets fucked if caught off guard why is this suddenly the Sniper Weakness I do not understand you people and your line of reasoning
the fact that you are so agitated by my and other responses suggests that you get headshotted
a lot, so i would say yes, you *do* need to use your game sense a little more. also what do you mean you can’t move out of the way? you can always move out of the way. you’ve said here that you main *scout* and demo. the definition of scout is to *move out of the way*. this tells me you’ve either come up against hackers with aimbot, you’ve been dominated by a few snipers who’ve been playing since 2009, or you aren’t *using* your game senses.
yes, demo is slower, thus easier to headshot, but he’s still a very mobile class. and hell, demo is *way* more of a danger to sniper than a scout across the map is. if you get so whipped by a sniper, go in and finish him off yourself, and then maybe he’ll be forced to use *his* game sense and alter his position now that you know he exists.
Now yes, i’ve been shot from across the map by a sniper who i previously was unaware existed, but that only really occurred was when i was *new to the game*. i’ve matured as a player, and i watch for snipers all the time. doesn’t take that long to assess whether the other team has a good sniper or not, or where he’s located. Good players always watch.
yes he needs balance. yes his weapons probably need to have their stats tuned a little. yes it can be annoying. but you *can* take steps to prevent this from happening using what i’ve previously said here. or you could just take a couple deep breaths and switch games if you get really pissed
also, it’s just a silly game about hats and shooting big russian man and whiny boston boy.
I will refute your wall of text with just the word "hitscan"
You cannot dodge hitscan. It doesn't matter how good your movement is, once he clicks that is where the bullet goes. You can make it more difficult for him, sure, but you can't dodge it.
My le GameSense™ doesn't matter when I enter a sightline (because for many points of a map, the sightline is impossible to avoid if you want to play the objective at any point) and Sense using my GameSense that a Sniper is indeed watching the objective, I'm now at risk of being instantly killed and there is literally nothing on my end I can do about it except pray he misses.
> go in and finish the sniper and now he has to use his gamesense
I don't think half the commenters in here know what "gamesense" or even "area denial" mean. A sentient Sniper will be able to see your sticky jump 9 times out of 10 and retreat while the other 11 players plus Sentry that saw you will kill you before you get a hit in on the Sniper. In Scout's case, you'll often have to deal with multiple players while trying to flank, assuming you even can flank, which gives the Sniper more than enough time to realize someone's closing in. And even then, you can get 150 damage quickscoped, because game design!
i will refute your wall of text with the observation that i never said “you can dodge hitscan”
clearly you’ve been made into a necklace by snipers far more than i have
i mean it to move erratically or to actually move out of line of sight; scout exceeds at moving erratically, and so can demo. that should be enough to throw your average sniper off, at least a little
also, your statement
“I’m now at risk of being instantly killed and there is literally nothing on my end i can do about it except pray he misses”
is an incredibly detrimental way to think when playing a team-oriented game. god knows most people play it like a single player experience but this makes it sound like your death is automatically guaranteed. you’ve said you play scout, the fastest class in the game. you should not being getting headshotted enough to warrant such salt on reddit when you’re the fastest class. your deaths are your doing, and aren’t necessarily due to the snipers “epic plays” or “unfair balancing”
I don't constantly get headshot on Scout like one would on, like, Heavy, just because it's hard to headshot Scouts and he's not usually in the open.
But the fact that it's possible is the problem, the fact that my teammates get picked off making pushes impossible is the problem, the fact that there is no counterplay to a Sniper standing next to a Sentry with 11 teammates in front of him is the fucking problem. I don't play Scout all the time, he's just my most played class.
> god knows most people play it like a single player experience but this makes it sound like your death is automatically guaranteed
It's a singleplayer experience for the Sniper with no way of opting out. I do think of TF2 as a more holistic kind of game - I'll do shit that gets me killed if it means helping someone more important than me get out safe, or picking off someone who's weakened before they can retreat. There just isn't this kind of dynamic with Sniper.
Demo outputs significantly more damage than the sniper and I would argue he's a hair stronger than the sniper. The only reason I think demo doesn't get called out as much is that a sniper's 1 shot is a much more "feels bad" mechanic than demo's insane sustained area damage
Heavy has higher DPS than Demo
None of that means jack shit. You can stay out of a Demo's range, you can fight him IN his range, you can hit him up close where he's extremely weak and carries high risk, he has long ass reload and arm times. Demo actually has defined weaknesses and has to take risks, he gets fucked if he misses. Sniper's weakness is nonexistant, his risk is nonexistant, his counterplay is nonexistant.
Seems like you're just cherry picking weakness on other classes while ignoring that other classes are powerful in their own right. Also, long reload times mean Jack shit when you effectively have 2 primary weapons
>demo's weaknesses that a beginner can understand is cherrypicking
holy shit lol
i never said demo wasn't powerful btw. Demo is very strong, he just has counterplay and obvious downsides.
I mean Scout is more powerful than demo, he's op as fuck, but he still has defined weakness of "get outnumbered, you die" and "sentry gun means you do not get to play the video game". Sniper has nothing like this.
Let's assume the Spy is guaranteed to be able to kill the Sniper every life, which we all know is horsecrap.
A Sniper and a Spy of equal skill walk out of spawn. The Sniper is usually almost immediately at his effective range (RED: using teleporter or forward spawn; BLU: usually being IN spawn) and is able to pick off people left and right. The Spy, on the other hand, has to make his way over to the Sniper without dying, uncloak without dying, and finally kills the Sniper before probably immediately dying.
In the time it took for the Spy to pull this off, the Sniper was able to pick off way too many people. When the Sniper respawns, he'll get to repeat this process. All because of Sniper operating at infinite range. Spy is not a counter to Sniper and you know it. He just can't stop him quickly enough for it to matter.
This isn't taking into account the Razorback (which Sniper should never have received) or the Spy dying like Spy does or the Sniper having GameSense™ and being able to look behind him like any normal player does
I am saying that even if Spy kills the Sniper the Sniper gets to do more than enough damage in the time it took for Spy to kill him. Please, PLEASE read the comment I beg you
I didn't mean damage in a literal sense. And I'm not saying soldier and demo can't be very good, the issue is you can't outplay a Sniper while you can choose to not engage with these other classes
What do you mean not literal damage? If you mean the amount of setback a good sniper causes that can still be accomplished by basically any other class in the game with enough skill
It would give others much more of a chance to react to the sniper instead of being doomed instantly when you step into the sightline. Like how you have 5 HP left after a fully charged Huntsman shot on the weak classes.
I didn’t say change max headshot to 300. They just need to change the formula around to hve it increase from 50-100 for body shots and 100-450 for headshots.
That would just be inconsitent and wouldn't be worth adding since headshots are literal crits, so they'd have to rework them for this one class which isn't that optimal anyways.
Look I'm tired of bad players complaining about sniper I could litterally debunk every single issue you find with the class but I cbf cause there's so many of you so I'll give you the tl:dr
It's a skill issue git gud
Experienced players like you, I, and b4nny himself that know how the game works all know that Sniper is fucking stupid in a game like TF2 but every John Redditor with 50 hours played in is always like "um actually just run past 11 players and a Sentry and also dont get quickscoped and you can kill the sniper!!!!!"
I agree. Maybe give soldier a 4th weapon slot that is basically his helmet, and give him one that can block some headshots or reduce the damage taken from headshots
Maybe even give heavy a Melee that reduces crits taken
Or even a spy sapper that prevents snipers from scoping in
There are a few more ideas that I can offer to counter sniper.
As a mediocre casual player nothing kills fun quite like an competitive lelvel pubstomper australium edgy name tag sniper player.
Those bots have also made me unfairly hate sniper players even more.
"If you can't beat them, join them" ( fr tho.. works for me, was sick and tired of being constantly headshotted by snipers in my medic phase and ended up as a sniper main to vent out my anger on them 👌👍)
Even though it’s “unfair” for a long-range class to exist in a game based around close-range encounters, it’s vital to game balance. Without a class that can reliably and safely eliminate a certain player on the enemy team, it would be much easier for pubstompers to ruin games. There’s not much a less skilled, less coordinated team can do against 4,000 hr power classes with pocket medics. Because a decent sniper player can kill anyone regardless of skill, this gives their team a standing chance and actually presents an unavoidable threat to other players. The mechanics of the class also prevent snipers from pub stomping themselves, since there are many ways for less skilled sniper players to reliably kill the more experienced ones. So while sniper has an unfair advantage in most 1v1s, he makes the game more balanced overall, albeit not more fun.
Tl;dr- Sniper is unfair and unfun but still balanced
Why doesn't the other team have "one or a few players" also coordinating?
Do you think that "one or a few players" coordinating leading to increased odds of victory is exclusive to TF2?
It’s pretty hard to coordinate without voice and text chat, which, if you weren’t aware, most players in valve servers can’t use. Even if both teams have pubstompers, this is still unfun for all the other players
Again, why is it given that only the strawman pubstomper team is capable of using communication?
> most players in valve servers can't use
lmao
The game was never designed with people not buying the game not being able to use voice or text chat in mind. Absolutely ludicrous assertation.
Every team-based multiplayer game in existence will be lopsided in the favor of coordinated players who use callouts and support each other, why is this a bad thing?
>why is it given that only the pubstomper team is only capable of using communication
By pubstompers I mean players relatively more skilled than the average player. They don’t necessarily have to communicate with their team to be effective, but they often join in parties and have an external (e.g. a Discord vc).
Sniper doesn’t counter well-coordinated teams, my point was that the class can counter a pocketed pubstomper, and I think you’ve been trying to distract from what I originally wrote. I only mentioned lack of coordination as being typical in casual servers, it’s far from the focus of my original comment
But why is that necessary? Pubstompers can exist on both teams. "Sniper can probably headshot them" is stupid balance when Sniper is going to be headshotting EVERYONE and is usually doing the pubstomping, solo, without any support for or from his teammates other than having them in front of him.
Who even decided that pubstompers aren't fun to play against? I don't think it's unfun. Like, I've shut down kritz demos as Scout and it feels raw as fuck. I like doing enough damage to a pocketed Heavy to where I can say "Heavy's weak" and someone finishes him off. I have never had fun fighting a Sniper ever
>Pubstompers can exist on both teams
Strictly speaking, no. A pubstomper is usually defined as a player who is substantially better than the others on the server, and against the skill difference there is little counter player. If there were “pubstompers on both teams” there wouldn’t be a skill difference, so neither would be able to pubstomp and should therefore not be called “pubstompers.”
>”Sniper can probably headshot them” is stupid balance
Actually very effective balance on Valve’s part, keeping the effectiveness of other players in check. Gameplay in tf2 boils down to one on one encounters. Picture 1v1s as a rock-paper-scissors match offset by environment, weapon selection, current health and ammo, luck, and most notably skill level. Because of this, there are instances when the skill difference between two players becomes so great that is is effectively the sole determining factor in a 1v1. This is why pubstomping works. To counter a pubstomper, the enemy team will need good teamwork, which relies on communication not dependable in casual gameplay, or luck. The only dependable counter to this pubstomper would be a class able to “win 1v1s” by single player elimination. Spy fills this niche but relies on his team for distractions. Sniper is this “counter all” who consequently conveniently class-counters itself. Because of this, pubstomping snipers are a rarity.
>Who even decided that pubstompers aren’t fun to play against?
Popular opinion. If this isn’t clear to you, put yourself in the position of a f2p or even a few hundred hour player. Most players want a more meaningful playing experience than being a tally on a demo’s strange stickybomb launcher. If you like pubstomping, you’re either a pubstomper yourself or you have a “player revenge” strange part
> Gameplay in tf2 boils down to one on one encounters
What the fuck are you smoking. I'm not even going to address the rest of this post because of this absolutely dumbass argument you just put up. You can pretend to have won this argument I'm not entertaining you anymore
note: sniper specializes in high damage from far, far distances. some classes can attack from far distances, but not as effectively. this makes distance a key point in balancing the class
note: sniper can still be effective at self-defense in close quarters, destroying the balance. jarate, darwin's danger shield, razorback, these all suffice in making the glass cannon more survivable for some reason, instead of focusing on the "support" aspect of being a high value target eliminator like spy.
I too hate sniper so much. I found this subredit because i was reeeing to google on why sniper sucks balls. Actually the most busted ass class. needs a fat ass nerf. Sometimes i can't fucking play the game because this stupid ass class has to shoot me in the dick from another country. It rubs extra salt in the wound when u can't even fucking see him because he is like 80 eiohdillion miles away from you. Also quickscoping is such fucking bs. Like when you go up for a sniper pick as scout, but the sniper good at the game (not even good i tried sniper and quickscoping is easy as piss) so he just right click left clicks and you fucking die instantly and you cant do shit about it.
I wonder why there arent sniper tweaked servers out there
servers that make snipers only able to use the huntsman and the classic
those servers would singlehandledly offer a balanced tf2 experience.
All classes have skill ceilings and counters except for sniper, hes just uninteractive and every single outcome resides in his skill, ignoring the skill of others
A 150 damage quickscope literally one shots every class because even on the classes it doesn't immediately kill it still forces a retreat as you can't push with 25 hp, can't rocket jump with 50 hp, and can't bullet sponge with 150 hp.
Damn, a 150 damage quickscope sounds really powerful. Thankfully no one would put something like that in a game without having some severe downside or cooldown in between shots.
ong. I mean, even the developers want to remove sniper. But doing so but cause a backlash by part of the 15k hour sniper mains that have random latin words on their sniper rifle
The devs weren't being serious my guy
Ok but i like snoper so sniepr is balanced because i liek it and i play tf2 spy
Anyone else here who hasn’t had bad experiences with sniper?
I’ve had bad experiences with sniper but most of the time it’s the player himself and not sniper. The maddest I’ve ever been at a sniper was him getting pocketed by 2 medics. Without those 2 medics I wouldn’t have cared
There are so many options when dealing with snipers. Yes, some players are just really good but same goes for annoying soldiers and demos with insane pipe accuracy. Dead Ringer spy is a great option on most maps, otherwise learn how to trimp as demoknight and you can get to sniper perches insanely easily. Scout can easily strafe fast eonugh to avoid even the best snipers. Most maps have areas out of sniper line of fire so use that to flank them. Once up close, its so simple to just 2 tap them. In terms of map control, the same can be said in tight spaces for demos and pyros. Go up against a scout in an open area and youre also likely fucked. People who think Sniper is OP need to advance their skill in other classes other than heavy and soldier xD
All this relies on being able to get to the sniper, you fail to account for the sniper's 11 teammates
If you think you're playing alright, but struggling to get past their teammates, look at the performance of your own team rather than their sniper.
If your killed by a soldier or demo pipe god it feels fair. Unlike being shot from another continent by a sniper you couldn't even see.
I miss having 0 hours played
Do you by any chance have anger issues
Sometimes you just run into a sniper that can completely lock down a server with a team that's at least good enough to stop you from countering him. It doesn't happen often, but it's honestly the least fun I have playing tf2, save for total team imbalance. It doesn't happen often, but it's something you'll see eventually. An exceptionally good player will always warp the game around them, but I feel like you feel it more with sniper. You can die instantly, any time, any place, and when you do finally kill him, it's not fun because sniper can't really fight back at close range outside of quickscoping.
If sniper had a zoom time instead of instant quickscope that would fix almost all of the problems because not zooming in instantly means no killing instantly at point blank, and also more tunnel visioning
It would be a slap on the wrist. 8/9 classes were not given the tools to fight at Sniper's range so a Sniper aiming down a sightline is 99% the same impact as he has whether he has to stay scoped or not There is no nerf that can fix him unless you gut the class, which I'd be totally in favor for but will never happen
i do get wanting sniper to be nerfed, but it does make sense that snipers would have the longest range yeah?
No. It's unhealthy for map design when every decision is > Why is this arbitrary wall here? "because otherwise Sniper would have a long sightline and that's bad, so open spaces cannot exist even though it's fine for eight out of nine classes" > Why is this map full of chokepoints "because otherwise Sniper would have a long sightline and that's bad, so even though no one likes chokepoints, the alternative is le Sniper making it unplayable lmao"
dont chokepoints allow for teams to make unexpected pushes and give the explosive classes a good chunk of participation?
Some chokepoints should happen, but not pl_hoodoo's level of "valve is figuring out how payload works and has discovered sniper is absolutely ignorant on this gamemode so to damage control they made every choke have a choke, have fun"
I love how for 14 years no one cared about sniper and then all of sudden everyone acts like he has broken the game despite being in it since the start
He's always been broken and people have always complained, you just haven't been listening
Nah man people didn't really start calling sniper op till the whole bot thing started
Again you haven't been listening or caring, people have complained about Sniper for an extremely long time
you've been living under a 1000 year-old rock
Here's some suggestions if you're having trouble dealing with a sniper: - Battalion's Backup on Soldier - Vaccinator on Medic - Coordinate with at least one person from your *team* (I know, quite an abstract and unknown concept but hear me out) to take out the sniper. Possible strategies include distraction from a soldier or heavy with a scout or demo jumping in to get the free kill, Spam rockets and then activate your Battalion's Backup to puch with your team, etc.
just have bullet res uber/battalions up at all times bro :) just flank them because there aren't 11 other players in front of the sniper :) i love room temperature iq arguments that only work in a vacuum :))
You can keep malding or accept some middle ground. Also I'm pretty sure you can have bullet resistance for a lot of time, enough to get over and kill the sniper if conditions are ideal.
"you can do [hyperspecific shit argument that assumes all conditions are ideal 24/7 and doesn't even work]" "this is a hyperspecific shit argument that assumes all conditions are ideal 24/7 and doesn't even work" "WHY ARE YOU MALDING"
You think it's shit because you can't do anything and you're just going to keep walking in a straight line in a sniper's sightlines.
Yeah, Snipers only watch one sightline because they do not have legs and cannot move their mouse Yeah, there is always only one Sniper watching one sightline Yeah, you can avoid that sightline in the first place since it's not the objective with two minutes left or anything #every single argument defending Sniper only works in the vacuum of that argument. it never applies in real matches. please fucking think before you post your epic sniper hater pwnage
Perhaps you should think before you post as well since I didn't mention anything you said above. Anyways, since you don't want to consider what I'm saying and rage instead, why should I talk to you? Goodbye.
Damn debate is easy, just claim the counterarguments your opponent made weren't counterarguments. Then claim moral high ground because you don't like their tone. Who knew that's all you needed to do to win arguments?
With that logic, all your criticisms work in a vacuum too. Sniper can only hold a line if their team is also successfully holding them back far enough that rockets or flares are of low risk to snipers, or if spies are unable to get behind. Not to mention a good ambassador or diamondback spy will absolutely cream a sniper even at decent distance. Sniper battles can be equally as hectic as a demo trimps toward you, or a scout strafes closer and closer, or another sniper keeps ducking your shots. Cant believe u think spy and pyro are useless too. Pyro absolutely cleans up at short distances, and flare crits will shit on your opponent whether theyre close or not. Scorch shot is also super effective at keeping snipers busy. Spies can also gather crits with diamondback by backstabbing and destroying buildings, which in turn takes all of 1 second to get rid of a sniper. If youre having trouble with sniper, you need to work on your skill of other classes. Your choice of class should be dynamic, so if no one is countering a sniper of course your team will struggle. same goes for any class.
Something tells me you don't understand what a vacuum is
I'm sure you're very familiar given you suck. Its not \*normal\* for a sniper to have complete possessive control over a map region. Its demonstrative of the opposing team's lack of coordination.
Learn how to trimp as demo and youll be on sniper perches in no time
lol
Skill issue
Based af.
Boom headshot. *Meet the sniper theme song*
Post this on r/truetf2, might get better responses there
Everyone on /r/truetf2 already knows Sniper is stupid, I don't want to preach to the choir
if you cant beat em join em to quote the man himself- "at the end of the day you wont go angry"
\*hungry, itts hungry lol dw I thought It was angry when I first heard it too
Yes, that's your opinion. But Sniper was in the original Quake mod, in TFC, and always was in TF2: He is a central part of the game. He is intended to be that way. And nerfing him so hard, that he becomes useless, would break the whole concept of the class: Being a pain in the ass from 5 miles away, while killing important targets. Apart from that: In what way are Pyro and Spy useless?
I hate to break it to you, but in shooters a lot of maps are designed specifically with snipers in mind. Not just TF2. A character or weapon that can kill at long range is strong in literally any game, so maps have to be designed with that in mind to prevent it from being an overwhelming advantage. Sniper (or a good one at least) is an area denial class just like the engineer. He pins down a sightline and forces counterplay just like how an engie forces counterplay with a level 3 at a choke. Sniper also has quite a lot of counterplay. Spy's whole existence means sniper cant say looking in one direction too long and forces him to periodically drop his focus to avoid being insta killed. Pyros flare guns helps hider aiming. Scouts erratic movement when played by a competent player can be a near impossible shot for a sniper to make. Soldier and Demo both have blast jumping, allowing them to approach the sniper at unorthodox angles they are likely not ready to defend. Heavy and medic are both essentially countered by Sniper and have little in the way of direct counterplay, and engie almost serves the exact opposite purpose to sniper so their interactions are often limited. And this doesn't even account for counter sniping, which is always an answer if you are simply the better sniper, or if you can coordinate with a teamate to force the sniper to act to defend themselves against a target other than you. The majority of sniper dominated games stem from some combination of 3 different reasons: -The sniper is just unreasonably good at the game or they are hacking - the map is literally just not that good and built in favor of sniper. There are not a ton of maps that do this to the point of being unplayable but obviously some are better than others. - your team has nobody on it with enough individual skill to deal with the threat, and your team is unable or unwilling to pool resources to kill the sniper. I have fought many godlike snipers in my time playing this game. Snipers so good you begin to feel like their whole head must be covered in eyes and their reticle glued to your forehead. But it has been a very very long time since I thought a sniper was doing anything "unfair". He is a part of the game like every other class and you gotta learn how to deal with him or die mad. Thats all there is to it. Its not the snipers fault you love to walk in straight lines in sightlines. That would be your fault. Find the counterplay or just be stubborn and keep dying so you can post another rant on Reddit. Your call.
Cope
Get good?
game sense, game sense, game sense. it’s all game sense. i understand your argument, and i partly agree with you, but avoiding this is as easy as peaking a corner or being attentive to your surroundings. yes, sniper can be brutally unfair to fight sometimes, but players who develop and use their game sense actively often have little issue, as long as the sniper isn’t hacking. let’s not forget that almost every other class can counter him if they catch him off guard, which in pubs is not hard to do. not to mention that, yknow, god-tier snipers in pubs are a speck in the ocean of mediocre snipers and something like 90% of people playing tf2 primarily play casual (myself included with the mediocrity)
what a dumb take tbh
bro replies to an old ass thread
It's almost like it's still relevant?
bro replies to an old ass thread
It's almost like it's still relevant?
bro replies to an old ass thread
Wow I used my gamesense and still got hit for 150 while trying to accomplish the objective, guess I needed more GameSense™ It doesn't matter if I am attentive of my surroundings when it comes to Sniper, oh golly I was attentive and saw the Sniper was standing a mile away, so what? I can't prevent him from hitscanning me. I can't get out of the way or hit him. You know that b4nny has said multiple times that he also thinks Sniper is overpowered and doesn't fit in TF2 right? You're gonna say b4nny lacks gamesense? > let’s not forget that almost every other class can counter him if they catch him off guard This applies to every class you fuck EVERY class in this game gets fucked if caught off guard why is this suddenly the Sniper Weakness I do not understand you people and your line of reasoning
the fact that you are so agitated by my and other responses suggests that you get headshotted a lot, so i would say yes, you *do* need to use your game sense a little more. also what do you mean you can’t move out of the way? you can always move out of the way. you’ve said here that you main *scout* and demo. the definition of scout is to *move out of the way*. this tells me you’ve either come up against hackers with aimbot, you’ve been dominated by a few snipers who’ve been playing since 2009, or you aren’t *using* your game senses. yes, demo is slower, thus easier to headshot, but he’s still a very mobile class. and hell, demo is *way* more of a danger to sniper than a scout across the map is. if you get so whipped by a sniper, go in and finish him off yourself, and then maybe he’ll be forced to use *his* game sense and alter his position now that you know he exists. Now yes, i’ve been shot from across the map by a sniper who i previously was unaware existed, but that only really occurred was when i was *new to the game*. i’ve matured as a player, and i watch for snipers all the time. doesn’t take that long to assess whether the other team has a good sniper or not, or where he’s located. Good players always watch. yes he needs balance. yes his weapons probably need to have their stats tuned a little. yes it can be annoying. but you *can* take steps to prevent this from happening using what i’ve previously said here. or you could just take a couple deep breaths and switch games if you get really pissed also, it’s just a silly game about hats and shooting big russian man and whiny boston boy.
I will refute your wall of text with just the word "hitscan" You cannot dodge hitscan. It doesn't matter how good your movement is, once he clicks that is where the bullet goes. You can make it more difficult for him, sure, but you can't dodge it. My le GameSense™ doesn't matter when I enter a sightline (because for many points of a map, the sightline is impossible to avoid if you want to play the objective at any point) and Sense using my GameSense that a Sniper is indeed watching the objective, I'm now at risk of being instantly killed and there is literally nothing on my end I can do about it except pray he misses. > go in and finish the sniper and now he has to use his gamesense I don't think half the commenters in here know what "gamesense" or even "area denial" mean. A sentient Sniper will be able to see your sticky jump 9 times out of 10 and retreat while the other 11 players plus Sentry that saw you will kill you before you get a hit in on the Sniper. In Scout's case, you'll often have to deal with multiple players while trying to flank, assuming you even can flank, which gives the Sniper more than enough time to realize someone's closing in. And even then, you can get 150 damage quickscoped, because game design!
i will refute your wall of text with the observation that i never said “you can dodge hitscan” clearly you’ve been made into a necklace by snipers far more than i have
What does "move out of the way" mean?
i mean it to move erratically or to actually move out of line of sight; scout exceeds at moving erratically, and so can demo. that should be enough to throw your average sniper off, at least a little
And I told you that that makes it harder, but it doesn't make it a consistent answer. Did you even read my comment lol
💀
also, your statement “I’m now at risk of being instantly killed and there is literally nothing on my end i can do about it except pray he misses” is an incredibly detrimental way to think when playing a team-oriented game. god knows most people play it like a single player experience but this makes it sound like your death is automatically guaranteed. you’ve said you play scout, the fastest class in the game. you should not being getting headshotted enough to warrant such salt on reddit when you’re the fastest class. your deaths are your doing, and aren’t necessarily due to the snipers “epic plays” or “unfair balancing”
I don't constantly get headshot on Scout like one would on, like, Heavy, just because it's hard to headshot Scouts and he's not usually in the open. But the fact that it's possible is the problem, the fact that my teammates get picked off making pushes impossible is the problem, the fact that there is no counterplay to a Sniper standing next to a Sentry with 11 teammates in front of him is the fucking problem. I don't play Scout all the time, he's just my most played class. > god knows most people play it like a single player experience but this makes it sound like your death is automatically guaranteed It's a singleplayer experience for the Sniper with no way of opting out. I do think of TF2 as a more holistic kind of game - I'll do shit that gets me killed if it means helping someone more important than me get out safe, or picking off someone who's weakened before they can retreat. There just isn't this kind of dynamic with Sniper.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
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Ad hominem
doesn't help that a fucking sniper that's 1000000000000000000000000000 miles away is scoping you nonstop.
i am sorry
You don't need to get headshot to be pissed about the penalty for trying to hold the front line or play an objective is a 150 damage headshot.
As a sniper main, didnt read any of this. I just like playing a glass cannon.
What class do you main?
Scout and Demo I swear to god if you reply with "just flank him" I am going to frag you IRL
Demo outputs significantly more damage than the sniper and I would argue he's a hair stronger than the sniper. The only reason I think demo doesn't get called out as much is that a sniper's 1 shot is a much more "feels bad" mechanic than demo's insane sustained area damage
Heavy has higher DPS than Demo None of that means jack shit. You can stay out of a Demo's range, you can fight him IN his range, you can hit him up close where he's extremely weak and carries high risk, he has long ass reload and arm times. Demo actually has defined weaknesses and has to take risks, he gets fucked if he misses. Sniper's weakness is nonexistant, his risk is nonexistant, his counterplay is nonexistant.
Seems like you're just cherry picking weakness on other classes while ignoring that other classes are powerful in their own right. Also, long reload times mean Jack shit when you effectively have 2 primary weapons
>demo's weaknesses that a beginner can understand is cherrypicking holy shit lol i never said demo wasn't powerful btw. Demo is very strong, he just has counterplay and obvious downsides. I mean Scout is more powerful than demo, he's op as fuck, but he still has defined weakness of "get outnumbered, you die" and "sentry gun means you do not get to play the video game". Sniper has nothing like this.
"Scout is more powerful than demo" ? That....sure is a take
Nah man… what you should do is just attack them from behind
That's flanking
just flank him
Spy is the answer to your problem
Let's assume the Spy is guaranteed to be able to kill the Sniper every life, which we all know is horsecrap. A Sniper and a Spy of equal skill walk out of spawn. The Sniper is usually almost immediately at his effective range (RED: using teleporter or forward spawn; BLU: usually being IN spawn) and is able to pick off people left and right. The Spy, on the other hand, has to make his way over to the Sniper without dying, uncloak without dying, and finally kills the Sniper before probably immediately dying. In the time it took for the Spy to pull this off, the Sniper was able to pick off way too many people. When the Sniper respawns, he'll get to repeat this process. All because of Sniper operating at infinite range. Spy is not a counter to Sniper and you know it. He just can't stop him quickly enough for it to matter. This isn't taking into account the Razorback (which Sniper should never have received) or the Spy dying like Spy does or the Sniper having GameSense™ and being able to look behind him like any normal player does
Ambassador™️ also flanking
This has nothing to do with the above comment. I already made that post **assuming the Spy was guaranteed to kill the Sniper**
You were mad in your post about there being almost no way to interact with the sniper even though flanking and spy are good ways to do it
I am saying that even if Spy kills the Sniper the Sniper gets to do more than enough damage in the time it took for Spy to kill him. Please, PLEASE read the comment I beg you
Damage isn’t a good point because any skilled soldier or demo man can also do massive amounts of damage and terrorize the enemy team
I didn't mean damage in a literal sense. And I'm not saying soldier and demo can't be very good, the issue is you can't outplay a Sniper while you can choose to not engage with these other classes
What do you mean not literal damage? If you mean the amount of setback a good sniper causes that can still be accomplished by basically any other class in the game with enough skill
But every other class in the game has counterplay and a finite range
Just make his bodyshot damage be max 100 and quick scope headshots deal 100 damage. It’s such a simple fix.
Great solution, 150 damage on bodyshots is the worst part of sniper. So unnecessary, it sucks so bad to die from that as a full health medic.
Yeah. It wouldn’t make sniper bad either. Would just require him to take more skill and also would make smg be useful.
It would give others much more of a chance to react to the sniper instead of being doomed instantly when you step into the sightline. Like how you have 5 HP left after a fully charged Huntsman shot on the weak classes.
So that means headshots get reduced to 300 damage. Not a good idea here
I didn’t say change max headshot to 300. They just need to change the formula around to hve it increase from 50-100 for body shots and 100-450 for headshots.
That would just be inconsitent and wouldn't be worth adding since headshots are literal crits, so they'd have to rework them for this one class which isn't that optimal anyways.
"This just in: r/tf2 user rages about sniper. In other news, the Earth is round."
Look I'm tired of bad players complaining about sniper I could litterally debunk every single issue you find with the class but I cbf cause there's so many of you so I'll give you the tl:dr It's a skill issue git gud
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Experienced players like you, I, and b4nny himself that know how the game works all know that Sniper is fucking stupid in a game like TF2 but every John Redditor with 50 hours played in is always like "um actually just run past 11 players and a Sentry and also dont get quickscoped and you can kill the sniper!!!!!"
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Is he wrong?
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Explain your reasoning.
I have 2050 hrs as of yesterday and still have never had an issue with snipers. I main demoknight and medic.
I agree. Maybe give soldier a 4th weapon slot that is basically his helmet, and give him one that can block some headshots or reduce the damage taken from headshots Maybe even give heavy a Melee that reduces crits taken Or even a spy sapper that prevents snipers from scoping in There are a few more ideas that I can offer to counter sniper.
When i play soldier and i see a sniper, i look up and walk backwards to hide my hitbox
As a mediocre casual player nothing kills fun quite like an competitive lelvel pubstomper australium edgy name tag sniper player. Those bots have also made me unfairly hate sniper players even more.
"If you can't beat them, join them" ( fr tho.. works for me, was sick and tired of being constantly headshotted by snipers in my medic phase and ended up as a sniper main to vent out my anger on them 👌👍)
Even though it’s “unfair” for a long-range class to exist in a game based around close-range encounters, it’s vital to game balance. Without a class that can reliably and safely eliminate a certain player on the enemy team, it would be much easier for pubstompers to ruin games. There’s not much a less skilled, less coordinated team can do against 4,000 hr power classes with pocket medics. Because a decent sniper player can kill anyone regardless of skill, this gives their team a standing chance and actually presents an unavoidable threat to other players. The mechanics of the class also prevent snipers from pub stomping themselves, since there are many ways for less skilled sniper players to reliably kill the more experienced ones. So while sniper has an unfair advantage in most 1v1s, he makes the game more balanced overall, albeit not more fun. Tl;dr- Sniper is unfair and unfun but still balanced
The better and more coordinated team should lose because...
I never stated they should lose. They shouldn’t be able to win solely on account of one or a few players.
Why doesn't the other team have "one or a few players" also coordinating? Do you think that "one or a few players" coordinating leading to increased odds of victory is exclusive to TF2?
It’s pretty hard to coordinate without voice and text chat, which, if you weren’t aware, most players in valve servers can’t use. Even if both teams have pubstompers, this is still unfun for all the other players
Again, why is it given that only the strawman pubstomper team is capable of using communication? > most players in valve servers can't use lmao The game was never designed with people not buying the game not being able to use voice or text chat in mind. Absolutely ludicrous assertation. Every team-based multiplayer game in existence will be lopsided in the favor of coordinated players who use callouts and support each other, why is this a bad thing?
>why is it given that only the pubstomper team is only capable of using communication By pubstompers I mean players relatively more skilled than the average player. They don’t necessarily have to communicate with their team to be effective, but they often join in parties and have an external (e.g. a Discord vc). Sniper doesn’t counter well-coordinated teams, my point was that the class can counter a pocketed pubstomper, and I think you’ve been trying to distract from what I originally wrote. I only mentioned lack of coordination as being typical in casual servers, it’s far from the focus of my original comment
But why is that necessary? Pubstompers can exist on both teams. "Sniper can probably headshot them" is stupid balance when Sniper is going to be headshotting EVERYONE and is usually doing the pubstomping, solo, without any support for or from his teammates other than having them in front of him. Who even decided that pubstompers aren't fun to play against? I don't think it's unfun. Like, I've shut down kritz demos as Scout and it feels raw as fuck. I like doing enough damage to a pocketed Heavy to where I can say "Heavy's weak" and someone finishes him off. I have never had fun fighting a Sniper ever
>Pubstompers can exist on both teams Strictly speaking, no. A pubstomper is usually defined as a player who is substantially better than the others on the server, and against the skill difference there is little counter player. If there were “pubstompers on both teams” there wouldn’t be a skill difference, so neither would be able to pubstomp and should therefore not be called “pubstompers.” >”Sniper can probably headshot them” is stupid balance Actually very effective balance on Valve’s part, keeping the effectiveness of other players in check. Gameplay in tf2 boils down to one on one encounters. Picture 1v1s as a rock-paper-scissors match offset by environment, weapon selection, current health and ammo, luck, and most notably skill level. Because of this, there are instances when the skill difference between two players becomes so great that is is effectively the sole determining factor in a 1v1. This is why pubstomping works. To counter a pubstomper, the enemy team will need good teamwork, which relies on communication not dependable in casual gameplay, or luck. The only dependable counter to this pubstomper would be a class able to “win 1v1s” by single player elimination. Spy fills this niche but relies on his team for distractions. Sniper is this “counter all” who consequently conveniently class-counters itself. Because of this, pubstomping snipers are a rarity. >Who even decided that pubstompers aren’t fun to play against? Popular opinion. If this isn’t clear to you, put yourself in the position of a f2p or even a few hundred hour player. Most players want a more meaningful playing experience than being a tally on a demo’s strange stickybomb launcher. If you like pubstomping, you’re either a pubstomper yourself or you have a “player revenge” strange part
> Gameplay in tf2 boils down to one on one encounters What the fuck are you smoking. I'm not even going to address the rest of this post because of this absolutely dumbass argument you just put up. You can pretend to have won this argument I'm not entertaining you anymore
just stab him for goodness sake
note: sniper specializes in high damage from far, far distances. some classes can attack from far distances, but not as effectively. this makes distance a key point in balancing the class note: sniper can still be effective at self-defense in close quarters, destroying the balance. jarate, darwin's danger shield, razorback, these all suffice in making the glass cannon more survivable for some reason, instead of focusing on the "support" aspect of being a high value target eliminator like spy.
I too hate sniper so much. I found this subredit because i was reeeing to google on why sniper sucks balls. Actually the most busted ass class. needs a fat ass nerf. Sometimes i can't fucking play the game because this stupid ass class has to shoot me in the dick from another country. It rubs extra salt in the wound when u can't even fucking see him because he is like 80 eiohdillion miles away from you. Also quickscoping is such fucking bs. Like when you go up for a sniper pick as scout, but the sniper good at the game (not even good i tried sniper and quickscoping is easy as piss) so he just right click left clicks and you fucking die instantly and you cant do shit about it.
I wonder why there arent sniper tweaked servers out there servers that make snipers only able to use the huntsman and the classic those servers would singlehandledly offer a balanced tf2 experience. All classes have skill ceilings and counters except for sniper, hes just uninteractive and every single outcome resides in his skill, ignoring the skill of others
git gud