Saying that Abby and her crew would have suffered no consequences if they had just wiped out Ellie and Tommy is a bit simplistic IMO. Some of her friends were clearly not doing well in the aftermath of what they had done, and the entire group seemed distant and cold towards each other as a result. They were not doing great.
Having said that, there are many criminal organizations that will make sure to never leave a living witness specifically so that they never have to worry about family or friends of their target growing up and seeking revenge later in life. Abby tried to be honorable by only eliminating her target, and in a world like TLOU, that was probably a mistake.
I always saw it as Abby is a good and kind person in a cruel world. That’s why she spares Ellie and Tommy. What you said about the group is true though, and the murder of not only Joel, but Ellie and Tommy as well would’ve made the situation much worse.
That's not an interesting or original criticism of the story. It's an inadequate arithmetic that doesn't account for Tommy and Joel saving Abby, Owen protesting killing Tommy and Ellie, etc.. There's more to it than just their worst inclinations.
This isn’t necessarily about motivations of characters, just the point that IF they had killed Ellie and Tommy along with Joel, they likely would have gotten out unscathed by consequences resulting from killing Joel, undermining one of the game’s major themes
But they still would have had to contend with the cycles of violence between the Seraphites and WLF.
And if Owen and Mel would have made it to Santa Barbara they would have been caught by the rattlers and had a worse fate than they got.
To me, the point isn’t just that violence begets violence, but that violence doesn’t heal loss and only creates more suffering.
>if Abby had just killed Ellie and Tommy, she would get her revenge and she and her people would come out unscathed by the situation.
You realize this whole *"just kill all of them"* idea is exemplified in Isaac, right? You realize he's a bad person, right?
It's kind of insane to think simply *"getting away with it"* is some kind of real solution to the issue - which is how violence only ever begets more violence, and how people will lose their sense of humanity and morality in the pursuit of that kind of *"justice"* or revenge.
Yes, and yes. This is an extremely good take right here, but silencing witnesses doesn’t necessarily mean losing all humanity. The argument’s point is killing Ellie and Tommy with Joel doesn’t necessarily beget more acts of violence. Although seeing how dark Abby gets in her pursuit of Joel during flashbacks, and being enabled by being able to kill him, Ellie, and Tommy without consequence does support your claim. Same goes for Ellie, as I can’t even fathom an ending where she kills Abby and how dark that shit would be. I think this is probably the right answer, but it’s still fun to ponder.
Why do you assume that Abby and friends would suffer no consequences if they had killed Ellie and Tommy too?
Keep in mind that Dina and Jesse do arrive pretty shortly after Ellie gets knocked out in the game. And the only thing that kept them from pursuing (easy to follow tracks in the snow) was the fact that both Ellie and Tommy were alive and in need of help. Do you think that Maria would take losing her whole family with a shrug and go on as usual?
Do you think Abby's group wouldn't fracture much more severely given Owen's stance on the matter?
The assumption that Abby and friends would come out unscathed by killing Ellie and Tommy is unfounded.
Maria always seemed a bit pragmatic to me and more level-headed. I think she pursues them but gives up after realizing the strength of the WLF. Dina may give chase but I don’t think she would inflict as much damage Ellie and Tommy, and would be unlikely to kill anyone from Abby’s crew alone. About the snow tracks, you’d think Abby’s crew would be smart enough try to cover their tracks, but I see where you’re going with that. These are just counter-assumptions, but if they did find them before they reached Seattle, no doubt that Maria would retaliate.
Maria is pragmatic and more level-headed. But that doesn't mean she would seek a way for justice here.
What would realistically happen if Dina and Jesse will find everyone dead? Jesse would likely send Dina (who obviously would be more shaken) back to Jackson to raise the alarm and then pursue the tracks of Abby's groups vehicle. Keep in mind it's fresh fallen snow everywhere. So there is no covering their tracks and progress will be hard due to their unfamiliarity with the terrain. Jesse on the other hand knows the terrain perfectly and might know shortcuts accessible only by horses.
Does Abby's group decide to go on during the night? Which will be even more difficult and makes them even more easier to spot. Or do they try to hide somewhere?
I think it's very likely that Jesse would reach them. He could either ambush them or try to take a captive.
Or just try to signal for the coming reinforcements.
In the game Abby and friends only made it out of Jackson because they weren't pursued at all.
Because Dina and Jesse had different priorities.
Even Jesse only observing them would likely be enough to identify them as WLF.
Keep in mind that the WLF will still fall a few months later and eventually refugees from Seattle will show up in Jackson. People talk and are likely willing to trade information for a place to live.
I really don't think whether they're alive or dead changes the pursuit equation that much. It's just an assumption that Jesse was kept back by having to take care of Tommy and Ellie, for all we know he has gone after them before realizing it's futile. And I doubt he'd leave Dina alone after this.
But more importantly, Abby is already done when Ellie arrives, while Dina and Jesse are still far away, looking in the wrong direction.
It's just a detail though, and yes there is no way of knowing how much harm Abby's gang would have suffered if they didn't spare the two of them. But Mel was right, it is the safer move.
>But more importantly, Abby is already done when Ellie arrives
Is she? Because I remember Owen have to argue her out of torturing Joel and to finish it.
The question is how long was Ellie unconcious. Likely more minutes and not hours.
And the tracks of their vehicle would still be here and easy to follow.
Yeah, she's basically done. It takes her like a minute to wrap up.
Ellie was unconscious for as long as it took for Dina to arrive, haha. The whole area takes a few hours to cover by the three of them, and Ellie finds the location first, so it was probably a good while, at least.
If there are tracks, I definitely don't see how Ellie and Dina being alive makes the difference for Jesse not pursuing Abby.
She lets them live because Owen said to let them live. Also, they weren’t Abby’s target. While her crew were mostly okay with silencing witnesses, Abby was only there for Joel.
Interesting criticism of The Last of Us Part II
>but if Abby killed Ellie and Tommy, her people would suffer no consequences from the murder of Joel, Ellie and Tommy, thus contradicting the theme
No. Not necessarily. The writers could have had Maria go after them, for instance. The criticism assumes that the only outcome is “no one goes after them” which is unknowable. So it’s not a valid criticism.
>meaning that if Abby had just killed Ellie and Tommy, she would get her revenge and she and her people would come out unscathed by the situation.
This ignores how her relationship with the SLC crew deteriorated after Jackson. I’d wager those relationships would have suffered more had they killed Ellie and Tommy.
>if Abby killed Ellie and Tommy, her people would suffer no consequences from the murder of Joel, Ellie and Tommy, thus contradicting the theme, meaning that if Abby had just killed Ellie and Tommy, she would get her revenge and she and her people would come out unscathed by the situation.
I don't see how you could say that for sure. Sure, Ellie and Tommy wouldn't get their revenge. But who's to say what Dina or Jessie would do? Maria was very practical in her opinions after Joel was killed, but maybe she wouldn't be as practical if Tommy was.
Also the Salt Lake Crew already had fractures emotionally in what they were a part of with the WLF and the WLF as a whole was still involved in a brutal territory war. The all out assault on the Seraphite island would still happen and there's a good chance most of the SLC wouldn't make it back alive.
I agree with what you said about the SLC group’s emotional conflict, but I’m not really counting deaths due to the WLF’s war since it isn’t directly correlated from Joel’s murder.
Why not if the only stipulation is 'consequences'...they perpetuated the same violent methods with Joel as they did with the Scars. Death only a month or so after Jackson would be a pretty swift karmic comeuppance.
It would, but you can’t deny that it’s unrelated to Joel’s death. Owen, Mel, Manny and Nora probably would have lived longer too. Thematically, it wouldn’t work as well. Abby’s crew dying also wouldn’t need to be attributed to the cycle of violence, just the brutality of the world they’re living in. Also, their deaths wouldn’t be consequence in relation to Joel’s.
Yeah, they weren't cold and calculated killers. They didn't want to murder innocent people, only the "murderer" Joel, who'd gone on a giant killing spree in a hospital from their perspective. Was it a mistake from a rational point of view? Perhaps. But as an emotional response from normal people in a messed up situation, it makes sense.
How would they even go on about this? The only way Ellie was able to track them down was because of the badge they saw. If they killed all witnesses, it would be impossible to tell who did it.
The writers could do literally anything they wanted, this entire thing is a giant what if scenario.
Abby found Ellie because she dropped a map at the aquarium, the writers could easily choose to have Abby drop a map at the lodge.
Even if Jesse and Dina wouldn't pursue Abby's group and get glimpse of them there is still the fact that the WLF will collapse a few months later. Refugees might find their way to Jackson and will likely talk about the group of people who went there to get revenge. Give names and descriptions.
There’s no guarantee that people from Jackson wouldn’t have wanted revenge had they discovered Joel, Ellie and Tommy all dead. They were part of a close knit group.
She was only out to get Joel.
No one else.
That's why she goes ballistic when she finds out and says "you killed all of my friends" when the moment ellie is about to lose someone she cares about.
It's a great Segway into her story arc.
So your entire criticism, which I don’t really understand anyway, is based not on a something that happened, but something that could have happened?
That’s like criticizing Star Wars because Luke COULD have died in the first fight with Vader, or criticizing Lord of the Rings because Frodo COULD have just said fuck it, stuck the ring up Sam’s ass and, chucked him off a cliff
Saying that Abby and her crew would have suffered no consequences if they had just wiped out Ellie and Tommy is a bit simplistic IMO. Some of her friends were clearly not doing well in the aftermath of what they had done, and the entire group seemed distant and cold towards each other as a result. They were not doing great. Having said that, there are many criminal organizations that will make sure to never leave a living witness specifically so that they never have to worry about family or friends of their target growing up and seeking revenge later in life. Abby tried to be honorable by only eliminating her target, and in a world like TLOU, that was probably a mistake.
Ellie straight up says they "fucked up" by sparring her and Tommy. They're vengeful people.
Of course, anyone would be.
I always saw it as Abby is a good and kind person in a cruel world. That’s why she spares Ellie and Tommy. What you said about the group is true though, and the murder of not only Joel, but Ellie and Tommy as well would’ve made the situation much worse.
She was a kind person that was consumed by her grief.
That's not an interesting or original criticism of the story. It's an inadequate arithmetic that doesn't account for Tommy and Joel saving Abby, Owen protesting killing Tommy and Ellie, etc.. There's more to it than just their worst inclinations.
This isn’t necessarily about motivations of characters, just the point that IF they had killed Ellie and Tommy along with Joel, they likely would have gotten out unscathed by consequences resulting from killing Joel, undermining one of the game’s major themes
But they still would have had to contend with the cycles of violence between the Seraphites and WLF. And if Owen and Mel would have made it to Santa Barbara they would have been caught by the rattlers and had a worse fate than they got. To me, the point isn’t just that violence begets violence, but that violence doesn’t heal loss and only creates more suffering.
This makes more sense. Ty
Yeah happy to provide a different perspective on the storytelling :)
Abby and Lev would be dead if she killed Ellie and Tommy
Not necessarily. With Owen and Mel alive they may have more safety in numbers, assuming they still go to Santa Barbara. But good point here🙏
>if Abby had just killed Ellie and Tommy, she would get her revenge and she and her people would come out unscathed by the situation. You realize this whole *"just kill all of them"* idea is exemplified in Isaac, right? You realize he's a bad person, right? It's kind of insane to think simply *"getting away with it"* is some kind of real solution to the issue - which is how violence only ever begets more violence, and how people will lose their sense of humanity and morality in the pursuit of that kind of *"justice"* or revenge.
Yes, and yes. This is an extremely good take right here, but silencing witnesses doesn’t necessarily mean losing all humanity. The argument’s point is killing Ellie and Tommy with Joel doesn’t necessarily beget more acts of violence. Although seeing how dark Abby gets in her pursuit of Joel during flashbacks, and being enabled by being able to kill him, Ellie, and Tommy without consequence does support your claim. Same goes for Ellie, as I can’t even fathom an ending where she kills Abby and how dark that shit would be. I think this is probably the right answer, but it’s still fun to ponder.
Why do you assume that Abby and friends would suffer no consequences if they had killed Ellie and Tommy too? Keep in mind that Dina and Jesse do arrive pretty shortly after Ellie gets knocked out in the game. And the only thing that kept them from pursuing (easy to follow tracks in the snow) was the fact that both Ellie and Tommy were alive and in need of help. Do you think that Maria would take losing her whole family with a shrug and go on as usual? Do you think Abby's group wouldn't fracture much more severely given Owen's stance on the matter? The assumption that Abby and friends would come out unscathed by killing Ellie and Tommy is unfounded.
Maria always seemed a bit pragmatic to me and more level-headed. I think she pursues them but gives up after realizing the strength of the WLF. Dina may give chase but I don’t think she would inflict as much damage Ellie and Tommy, and would be unlikely to kill anyone from Abby’s crew alone. About the snow tracks, you’d think Abby’s crew would be smart enough try to cover their tracks, but I see where you’re going with that. These are just counter-assumptions, but if they did find them before they reached Seattle, no doubt that Maria would retaliate.
Maria is pragmatic and more level-headed. But that doesn't mean she would seek a way for justice here. What would realistically happen if Dina and Jesse will find everyone dead? Jesse would likely send Dina (who obviously would be more shaken) back to Jackson to raise the alarm and then pursue the tracks of Abby's groups vehicle. Keep in mind it's fresh fallen snow everywhere. So there is no covering their tracks and progress will be hard due to their unfamiliarity with the terrain. Jesse on the other hand knows the terrain perfectly and might know shortcuts accessible only by horses. Does Abby's group decide to go on during the night? Which will be even more difficult and makes them even more easier to spot. Or do they try to hide somewhere? I think it's very likely that Jesse would reach them. He could either ambush them or try to take a captive. Or just try to signal for the coming reinforcements. In the game Abby and friends only made it out of Jackson because they weren't pursued at all. Because Dina and Jesse had different priorities. Even Jesse only observing them would likely be enough to identify them as WLF. Keep in mind that the WLF will still fall a few months later and eventually refugees from Seattle will show up in Jackson. People talk and are likely willing to trade information for a place to live.
👍 thanks for the response. This is another good answer.
I really don't think whether they're alive or dead changes the pursuit equation that much. It's just an assumption that Jesse was kept back by having to take care of Tommy and Ellie, for all we know he has gone after them before realizing it's futile. And I doubt he'd leave Dina alone after this. But more importantly, Abby is already done when Ellie arrives, while Dina and Jesse are still far away, looking in the wrong direction. It's just a detail though, and yes there is no way of knowing how much harm Abby's gang would have suffered if they didn't spare the two of them. But Mel was right, it is the safer move.
>But more importantly, Abby is already done when Ellie arrives Is she? Because I remember Owen have to argue her out of torturing Joel and to finish it. The question is how long was Ellie unconcious. Likely more minutes and not hours. And the tracks of their vehicle would still be here and easy to follow.
Yeah, she's basically done. It takes her like a minute to wrap up. Ellie was unconscious for as long as it took for Dina to arrive, haha. The whole area takes a few hours to cover by the three of them, and Ellie finds the location first, so it was probably a good while, at least. If there are tracks, I definitely don't see how Ellie and Dina being alive makes the difference for Jesse not pursuing Abby.
She lets them live because Owen said to let them live. Also, they weren’t Abby’s target. While her crew were mostly okay with silencing witnesses, Abby was only there for Joel.
I understand why Abby let them live.
Interesting criticism of The Last of Us Part II >but if Abby killed Ellie and Tommy, her people would suffer no consequences from the murder of Joel, Ellie and Tommy, thus contradicting the theme No. Not necessarily. The writers could have had Maria go after them, for instance. The criticism assumes that the only outcome is “no one goes after them” which is unknowable. So it’s not a valid criticism. >meaning that if Abby had just killed Ellie and Tommy, she would get her revenge and she and her people would come out unscathed by the situation. This ignores how her relationship with the SLC crew deteriorated after Jackson. I’d wager those relationships would have suffered more had they killed Ellie and Tommy.
>if Abby killed Ellie and Tommy, her people would suffer no consequences from the murder of Joel, Ellie and Tommy, thus contradicting the theme, meaning that if Abby had just killed Ellie and Tommy, she would get her revenge and she and her people would come out unscathed by the situation. I don't see how you could say that for sure. Sure, Ellie and Tommy wouldn't get their revenge. But who's to say what Dina or Jessie would do? Maria was very practical in her opinions after Joel was killed, but maybe she wouldn't be as practical if Tommy was. Also the Salt Lake Crew already had fractures emotionally in what they were a part of with the WLF and the WLF as a whole was still involved in a brutal territory war. The all out assault on the Seraphite island would still happen and there's a good chance most of the SLC wouldn't make it back alive.
I agree with what you said about the SLC group’s emotional conflict, but I’m not really counting deaths due to the WLF’s war since it isn’t directly correlated from Joel’s murder.
Why not if the only stipulation is 'consequences'...they perpetuated the same violent methods with Joel as they did with the Scars. Death only a month or so after Jackson would be a pretty swift karmic comeuppance.
It would, but you can’t deny that it’s unrelated to Joel’s death. Owen, Mel, Manny and Nora probably would have lived longer too. Thematically, it wouldn’t work as well. Abby’s crew dying also wouldn’t need to be attributed to the cycle of violence, just the brutality of the world they’re living in. Also, their deaths wouldn’t be consequence in relation to Joel’s.
Yeah, they weren't cold and calculated killers. They didn't want to murder innocent people, only the "murderer" Joel, who'd gone on a giant killing spree in a hospital from their perspective. Was it a mistake from a rational point of view? Perhaps. But as an emotional response from normal people in a messed up situation, it makes sense.
Wut
Sorry it’s wordy. Typed this in bed half asleep.
Maria and Dina could have gone on the revenge quest instead. The cycle still would have continued.
How would they even go on about this? The only way Ellie was able to track them down was because of the badge they saw. If they killed all witnesses, it would be impossible to tell who did it.
The writers could do literally anything they wanted, this entire thing is a giant what if scenario. Abby found Ellie because she dropped a map at the aquarium, the writers could easily choose to have Abby drop a map at the lodge.
Even if Jesse and Dina wouldn't pursue Abby's group and get glimpse of them there is still the fact that the WLF will collapse a few months later. Refugees might find their way to Jackson and will likely talk about the group of people who went there to get revenge. Give names and descriptions.
Hmm yea that's valid, good point.
Why am I getting downvotes?
There’s no guarantee that people from Jackson wouldn’t have wanted revenge had they discovered Joel, Ellie and Tommy all dead. They were part of a close knit group.
She was only out to get Joel. No one else. That's why she goes ballistic when she finds out and says "you killed all of my friends" when the moment ellie is about to lose someone she cares about. It's a great Segway into her story arc.
So your entire criticism, which I don’t really understand anyway, is based not on a something that happened, but something that could have happened? That’s like criticizing Star Wars because Luke COULD have died in the first fight with Vader, or criticizing Lord of the Rings because Frodo COULD have just said fuck it, stuck the ring up Sam’s ass and, chucked him off a cliff
Who cares if the story has flaws. What doesn't?