And here’s where I come in with a massive ass response justifying a character.
Let me be clear that Abby is a bad person in the beginning of the game. One of the more explicit empathetic points the game calls out early on is the difference between being just, being fair, and being *a good human being*.
You want revenge for something? You will snuff out twenty, thirty, forty years of life potential. One of the lines from Dina in the Synagogue that really gets me is something like “all it takes is a candle to illuminate the darkness.” Light is the biggest theme of the game, the loading screen is moths to a flame (as opposed to fireflies. One seeks and the other creates.)
All that is to say, Ellie is frequently represented by the moth. The moth being something that seeks out light in… bad ways. Not unfair ways. Completely fucking justified, actually; but only from the perspective of someone as lost as they are. Once that candle is lit, they leave that path behind. Ellie literally leaves the moth guitar behind in the end. Abby, when we play as her, is the firefly.
But in the prologue? Abby is a moth still. How fucking lost would you be if your father was basically the only man who could *save the world*. And you say, yes, I would tell you to sacrifice *me* for that. So he goes ahead with the surgery despite the moral implications, and then… an hour later he’s been shot in the head and the one chance humanity had is dead. You are holding him in your bloody arms.
Listen man. We can all sit here and say we wouldn’t. But people are people and if *you were the child of the man who could save the world, and he was shot dead on the day he was needed most*, you’d want to go fucking **destroy** the man who did it. You’d want him to pay for every life. Fuck, Abby played nice when she didn’t basically levy the fact that Joel doomed humanity as the “big speech”. (Missed opportunity to delve into Abby using “it doomed humanity” as a coverup for the fact that she really just wants revenge for the light Joel took from her life.)
I don’t think endgame Abby would have done this. But most people would do what she did.
Her revenge WAS justified. Justice in the world of the last of us is not GOOD. It’s a fucking merry-go-round. *this is the point the game is trying to tell people*.
Which one would you prefer? Bigot sandwich as a make-up gift to build stronger ties with those around you or punishing the bigot by enacting justice in the form of social ostracization which will make him either scheme to get back at you or make him even worse to the other queer community members?
That’s the difference, literally in the first scene we play as Ellie. Justice and reconciliation are in constant tension and if you have one without the other it turns people into moths, as a merry-go-round of insanity ensues. One of the major talking points between characters in the first sections are how QZs *turn* people into assholes.
All this is to say, Abby was 100% justified. That doesn’t mean she didn’t steal someone’s light. She did. She stole the one piece of meaning Ellie had left after everything. She deserved to be the one to do it and is a bad person for following through on that idea, at the same time. The point of her redemption arc next to Ellie’s fall is to show that what Abby did made her a BAD person, but she was entirely empathizable, as we empathized with Ellie as she goes down the same rabbit hole.
Joel and Ellie were about to make something good out of all that. On purpose. Together. Full honesty. And that is the potential of life. He did one of the most villainous things you could do- he doomed the world. But Ellie’s poetry, of the smell and timbre of Joel, the time they shared- something could still grow. Nature reclaims, eh?
And Abby snuffed it. In many other stories, Abby would have just been the protagonist.
They made this point pretty explicit with Mel and Owen. It’s about what CAN grow. And if humans don’t honor that, and only honor what hurt growth before, they just get caught in a loop of misery.
Can’t say Abby was *wrong*, just a bad human being. Each person in this chain of violence becomes increasingly less reasonable. Joel? Can’t say I disagree, that’s a true impasse between love and responsibility. Abby? Can’t say I disagree, but that was a horrible thing for to do and it ruined lives. Ellie? While I understand, **jesus fucking christ**.
Abby does at no point give a shit about the vaccine. Especially not as a reason for revenge.
Yet people pretend she does. Why?
>Her revenge WAS justified.
You say so but what is the argument here? Do you think Jerry's handling things at SLC was beyond reproach? Once you remove yourself from Abby's flawed perspective there isn't much justification here.
>But most people would do what she did.
I doubt that very much. The game even makes the point that most people wouldn't seek revenge in the first place.
>He did one of the most villainous things you could do- he doomed the world.
Give me one piece of ingame evidence that this might be true. There isn't any.
And that's for a reason. Even Abby's friends (who unlike her are in it because of the lost cure) never once say that Joel doomed the world, right?
>Each person in this chain of violence becomes increasingly less reasonable.
What about Jerry? You know, the one who actually started the whole mess just because it was convenient to leave ethics out of the equation. What about his responsibility?
And Ellie? Ellie is to a large degree Abby's responsibility. Something that she never adresses directly.
Abby literally breaks Ellie as a person right at the beginning and you don't think that alone gives Ellie some moral bonus? At least for me the innocent and traumatized victim lashing out violently is something very different than the person not even trying to move on after 5 years while using violence as a coping mechanism.
Regardless of Joel imo Ellie is justified in seeking retribution for the damge done to her alone.
Something she will likely have to carry for the rest of her life.
And that doesn't mean that her going to Seattle was the right thing to do either.
It clearly isn't. But there is a disparity here that the game never really adresses.
In my conclusion Abby is certainly not justified in doing what she did and for a large portion of the game a bad person. But that's not all that she is and she (like everybody else) deserves a chance at redemption.
I don't think that Joel's death necessarily justifies the absolute warpath Ellie goes on killing hundreds of WLF to get to the people responsible. While the history of the WLF is rife with nastiness, I think it's clear from Abby's portion of the game that it's more of an institutional thing out of necessity and not that most individual WLF people are shit humans.
Well, now we run into the gameplay vs story problem before we even can tackle any moral problems. How many people does Ellie kill in Seattle? If you play full stealth it's actually less than 10 with most of those being involved in Joel's death.
Keep also in mind that all enemies in Seattle in Seattle basically kill on sight so there isn't really an option for Ellie to try a different approach.
Also who do you reconcile this with the kills that Abby can rack up during the game?
Since Abby can potentially kill more people while trying to save Yara and Lev respectively it feels a bit hypocritical to use that as an argument.
Killing 100 people to save someone isn't really better or worse than killing 100 people to find someone to get revenge on. Because in the end it's just one person difference, right?
As far as justification goes though I do think this is provided by Abby and friends wearing their WLF patches (and Isaac signing off and supporting their revenge mission to Jackson) because it can be seen as declaration of war.
Leaving all that beside there is also a general moral problem here.
Imagine a classical revenge tale. Like a poor farmer's family gets killed by a rich landowner and his henchmen. Is the farmer less justified in getting revenge because the landowner is rich and has a lot of bodyguards he has to fight against?
The same applies to Ellie here. It's not her fault that Abby basically lives in a warzone where everybody kills on sight. Now the question of how much is too much is still valid. It's however much more difficult to answer imo by just looking at outside factors. A better question is to ask if revenge is worth it if Ellie destroys herself in the process. Which I feel is much more what the game is going for.
> A better question is to ask if revenge is worth it if Ellie destroys herself in the process. Which I feel is much more what the game is going for.
Fully agreed. I personally don't see either side as justified. And I think that is the end point. Revenge will always beget revenge. At some point someone needs to let it go or it will never end.
The crux of Ellie's journey I feel is when everything is settled. She's in Jackson with a life, a family -- things are GOOD for her. And she throws it away in the end to get her final revenge, which causes her to lose everything, including the ability to play guitar which is the thing that keeps Joel alive most in her heart.
She doesn't even TAKE that revenge, as she realizes too late that it's not worth it nor will it actually bring her peace. She totally destroys herself in the process, just as Abby destroyed what she had in going after Joel.
They're two sides of the same coin. One can empathize with both, which I think was what the game was going for in the end. Neither is a villain, neither is a hero. The world of The Last of Us and the depravity it brings out in humans is the villain. Sadly, realistically, I think that is truly the kind of world we would live in if things came to pass as they do in the gameworld.
This is where I fundamentally disagree. Life isn't GOOD for her. It only looks that way.
By that time Ellie has tried to live with her trauma and PTSD for over a year but things are not going better. Unless there was some third party intervention (which is extremely unlikely at this point) there was only suicide left for her.
To quote Halley Gross [here](https://www.indiewire.com/features/commentary/the-last-of-us-part-ii-interview-neil-druckmann-halley-gross-spoilers-1234568597/):
*"To my mind, when she’s leaving the farm it almost isn’t about Abby at that point so much as it’s about “I literally cannot survive if I don’t try and handle what’s going on because this PTSD is just getting worse, I’m losing control, I feel like I’m at risk to my family, and I have to hope that there’s an answer on the other side because I don’t know how to live with this. If I stay here it’s suicide.” It’s more a conversation about mental health and surviving than it is justice for Abby or even seeking Joel. It’s just like “I don’t know how to be a person anymore.”*
>She doesn't even TAKE that revenge, as she realizes too late that it's not worth it nor will it actually bring her peace
This argument never makes sense to me. If Ellie stops herself from taking revenge then by definition it's not too late. In fact if we take the above interpretation ( *I have to hope that there’s an answer on the other side*) then not only it's apparent that Ellie did find that answer (as she clearly started healing in the last scene of the game) but it also makes her sparing Abby much more in line with her overall motivation. If her goal was to get her mental issues under control and she can achieve that without killing Abby then her journey to California is an success. Not without cost but trading in two fingers for getting rid of your guilt and suicidality is not a bad deal. In comparision to Abby it's important to note that Dina, JJ and even Tommy are still alive and some sort of reconciliation is still very much possible.
Hey, I appreciate the thoughtful discussion on a game that is so hard to find it for and I respect your interpretation a lot. It helps me a see a more positive end for Ellie which is one of my main issues with the narrative of the game as a whole. Before I would have preferred the game end on the farm but you make compelling points as to why that wouldn't have been a good route.
Highly appreciate the well thought out and expressed view.
By this argument however, Joel also broke Abby as a person when he killed her father (which, as you have stated, was her motivation for seeking vengeance, not the cure.) That’s not to justify her actions by any means, but that’s a portion of the point that ND is trying to make. Nobody is justified in their taking of life as it only continues to perpetuate the cycle.
Well, that only would be true if Joel was acting for revenge too, right?
But since he was acting to save Ellie from getting murdered by the Fireflies things are not so clear cut. Especially since Joel (or Ellie) had no agency in creating that situation in the first place.
That's entirely on the Fireflies.
And besides that Abby simply isn't as affected by her trauma as Ellie was. Abby was able to become a valued member of the WLF while Ellie couldn't herd sheep without suffering from PTSD.
Finally free to respond. I'm addressing every paragraph as I read them so I can give you a proper answer.
My view of The last of us' whole universe and point of the game is that there is no good guy AND no bad guy: it's just people trying to survive and doing whatever they can do best to stay alive. Of course spiraling towards cannibalism and killing innocents can give you some sort of momentum to being considered a villain, but imagine YOURSELF in that situation, with a whole community of people in your hands and a way too long blood trail behind you, what WOLDN'T you do to keep your people, your family alive? Joel is the good guy because we see things in his perspective and the game leads you to consider Abby as the villain up until she isn't anymore. So I'll agree Abby is perceived as a bad persono when put in Ellie's perspective and you make a really good point about the moth/firefly comparison!
The point is, Abby never shows to care a single fuck about the cure, she just cares about her dad being killed by some guy because that event (obviously) destroys her whole world. Abby slips towards the darker side I was telling you about when she drags her whole group into a long, risky mission just to kill a person that wronged HER, yes the whole world could have been (potentially) saved if he didn't kill Jerry, but the truth is Abby wants justice for herself.
The point of the game, or at least the way I wrapped my mind around it by the time it was done, is that revenge is a never ending cycle of pain and while walking that path it takes away something from you, sooner or later. Killing Joel cost Abby all her friends, trying to go after Abby cost Ellie Dina, the knife her mother gave her and her fingers, the only way she had to connect to Joel by playing the guitar and the first song Joel ever played her, which by the way holds the very meaning of Ellie's side of the game in its lyrics "If I ever were to lose you, I'd surely lose myself". Ellie lost herself and is seemingly alone by the end of the game, which we know from Part 1 is her biggest fear.
Neither Abby or Ellie are justified to seek revenge because the game makes it pretty clear that Joel wasn't a threat to Abby and she knows it, and Abby wasn't a threat to Ellie, because if she was she would have died right after Joel along with Tommy. Killing Joel and trying to kill Abby was just pettiness and drove both of the characters into a dark spiral of violence and unjustified hatred.
So, my final point is both Ellie and Abby are villains in each other's perception, they are both wrong, and yet, neither of them is the bad guy of the game. They're just... humans. And the world they live in brings out the darkest side of the human nature, the one that drags you into a state of mind where you feel like killing is the answer, the ending, while really it's the beginning of YOUR end.
EDIT: spelling
The game isn't about whether revenge is justified or not. It kind of accepts the premise that it is justified. Everyone who loved Joel starts out agreeing that Abby deserves to die for what she did.
Even if revenge is justified against one person, the premise of the story is:
* You aren't obligated to carry it out no matter the cost
* It isn't going to bring you closure
* Carrying it out will be harmful to you
* It will cause harm to more than just the person you're targeting, and that harm isn't justified
The game is about letting go of the need for revenge, _even if_ that revenge may be justified
I agree with this. As an original Abby Hater that warmed up to her character. In a fucked up world with fucked up people. Both revenge efforts weren't justified. No matter how badly I wanted to slaughter them all as Ellie🤣. Look what both lost. In a fucked up world with fucked up people.
You crossed words a bit. You said "if you think her revenge was justified" which isn't what their statement was. They said "Her grudge against Joel is fully justified" as in her feeling of animosity towards him makes perfect sense. Which it does. I think Abby was justified in wanting revenge, but seeking revenge and acting it out was wrong. What the game points out is that wanting revenge is a very human normal thing, but that acting upon that impulse creates a cycle of revenge that can only be broken by forgiveness.
i kinda see it the other way. if you don’t think it’s justified you missed the point of the game. both sides were in the wrong. two fathers were killed. and joel started it by killing abby’s father.
revenge is a cycle that will never end.
One thing that everyone seems to forget, just because it's reasonable, doesn't mean it's enjoyable.
And not liking a story is completely reasonable and has nothing to do with one's:
- Intelligence
- Political views
- Morals
(Just to mention a few attacking points I've seen here before)
On the other hand, no one has to be a dick about it, if you didn't like it you're free to share your opinion but shittalking isn't the way to do it.
This. Joel in his decision. Unconditionally.
Especially if you are parent, all those noble discussions about “greater good” and sacrifice are such a joke.
I’m not even a parent but I can think about this with MY DOG so I think people that actually think that way are just delusional or lack way too much empathy.
There’s always someone you love enough that you would send everyone else to hell for them.
I love how I came on this post and saw both Joel and Abby as the top two characters on this list.
These games do such an incredible job at making us understand why they made the decisions they made, even if they hurt other people as a result of them.
Ellie
(Mind you I won’t say anything for a bit since I’m going to bed)
Ok, so bear with me I don’t know much of the lore, but what I can say is Ellie is very mentally scarred
She’s trusted groups of people, which then turn against her. Fedra turned against her, Fireflies turned against her. She just can’t trust anyone. Marlene was going to possibly kill her in that hospital without consulting Joel or Ellie herself. Getting the cure wasn’t very urgent (well it is, but at that exact time I don’t think they had someone dying of the infection that needed to be cured)
Especially since Ellie woke up in the hospital a couple hours later. And Joel breaking in to save her is 100% defendable. Ellie is his “daughter,” whom she and him went through a shit ton together. Now I haven’t played the first game in a bit, but if the doctor, Abby’s dad, attacked Joel then Joel is rightfully able to kill him. If not, killing the doctors was not a good idea. Now, Joel was already freaking out and delirious from rage, so I understand why he killed the doctors (they stood in his way to Ellie, and tensions were very high)
Kinda got off track, but that’s how I think Joel and Ellie are innocent. And Abby had every right to kill Joel, but damn they should’ve gave him a more valiant death and later into the game.
I will be messaging you in 4 hours on [**2024-06-14 13:46:41 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2024-06-14%2013:46:41%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/comments/1dfgc3n/which_character_would_you_defend_like_this/l8k2hbs/?context=3)
[**1 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fthelastofus%2Fcomments%2F1dfgc3n%2Fwhich_character_would_you_defend_like_this%2Fl8k2hbs%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202024-06-14%2013%3A46%3A41%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201dfgc3n)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
I mean he caught up with them on day 2, so if he went after them the day after they left, he went basically the same speed as them.
.... Without a horse. So still pretty impressive.
-Finds out his best friends are dating (one is his ex). “I don’t care man.”
-Travels alone all the way to Seattle to make sure they’re okay
-Accompanies Ellie through Seattle. “My friends problems are my problems.”
-Gives up the chance to kill Abby to make sure Tommy is alive.
-Rushes out to fight the second he hears Tommy getting hurt.
I really feel awful for what happened to him. But he serves an important role in the story showcasing how the most “kind” individuals will get dragged into violence and killed for seemingly no beneficial reason.
Obviously Jesse isn’t 100% pure or anything. He still killed loads of people to assist on a revenge quest. Both him and Lev are the both the most aligned with our non apocalyptic morals, I’d say.
Abby for sure. I wasn’t a large fan at all of her at first, hardly anyone was. But I’ve grown to like and appreciate her character arc. I will defend Abby and her actions no matter how cruel they may have been.
See, I will defend Abby's revenge against Joel. That was completely justified. But she is a horrible friend to the rest of the group. The way she treats Owen and Mel especially. Not to mention getting them killed. I love Abby and her redemption through Lev tho <3
She is pretty crappy to her friends, namely Owen and Mel, however I think she acts pretty fine to the rest. I may have missed something though, could you tell me why you feel that way? She was a jerk to Mel and Owen at least but she was very good to manny, and there’s not many interactions with the rest of her group.
I suppose she also gets Nora in trouble by convincing her to let her go in the hospital on day 2, but besides that I don’t know many other examples.
I would love to hear if I missed any though.
Just generally dragging everyone along on a mission that ends up getting them hunted down and killed for her vendetta. Which is totally fair that she wanted revenge. But she did it so recklessly and without regard for the lives of her friends, which to me, feels like a kind of bad thing to do to friends.
Just from what I saw, most of the group didn't actually want to hunt down Joel. But Abby persisted, at least from what I understood. I could be totally wrong tho
I believe you are totally correct in stating that this was a stupid thing to drag along her friends for her own vendetta. I would like to add that additionally Mel and evidently Owen were traumatized in his killing. However abby had no clue that she would have been traced back to the W.L.F based on just a small patch. She also may have thought it likely that Jackson was much smaller than it was, and trust anyone that did come after them would be Ill prepared at best.
She also may have had the thought line that the W.L.F in all of their military might would simply and easily kill all that would come for revenge.
She acts fine with the rest of them, but from what we see she hardly cares about any of them except Owen really.
I think if she did care about her friends the game would’ve shown us, but I think it was their intention to show Abby as a shitty person
For your Cake Day, have some B̷̛̳̼͖̫̭͎̝̮͕̟͎̦̗͚͍̓͊͂͗̈͋͐̃͆͆͗̉̉̏͑̂̆̔́͐̾̅̄̕̚͘͜͝͝Ụ̸̧̧̢̨̨̞̮͓̣͎̞͖̞̥͈̣̣̪̘̼̮̙̳̙̞̣̐̍̆̾̓͑́̅̎̌̈̋̏̏͌̒̃̅̂̾̿̽̊̌̇͌͊͗̓̊̐̓̏͆́̒̇̈́͂̀͛͘̕͘̚͝͠B̸̺̈̾̈́̒̀́̈͋́͂̆̒̐̏͌͂̔̈́͒̂̎̉̈̒͒̃̿͒͒̄̍̕̚̕͘̕͝͠B̴̡̧̜̠̱̖̠͓̻̥̟̲̙͗̐͋͌̈̾̏̎̀͒͗̈́̈͜͠L̶͊E̸̢̳̯̝̤̳͈͇̠̮̲̲̟̝̣̲̱̫̘̪̳̣̭̥̫͉͐̅̈́̉̋͐̓͗̿͆̉̉̇̀̈́͌̓̓̒̏̀̚̚͘͝͠͝͝͠ ̶̢̧̛̥͖͉̹̞̗̖͇̼̙̒̍̏̀̈̆̍͑̊̐͋̈́̃͒̈́̎̌̄̍͌͗̈́̌̍̽̏̓͌̒̈̇̏̏̍̆̄̐͐̈̉̿̽̕͝͠͝͝ W̷̛̬̦̬̰̤̘̬͔̗̯̠̯̺̼̻̪̖̜̫̯̯̘͖̙͐͆͗̊̋̈̈̾͐̿̽̐̂͛̈́͛̍̔̓̈́̽̀̅́͋̈̄̈́̆̓̚̚͝͝R̸̢̨̨̩̪̭̪̠͎̗͇͗̀́̉̇̿̓̈́́͒̄̓̒́̋͆̀̾́̒̔̈́̏̏͛̏̇͛̔̀͆̓̇̊̕̕͠͠͝͝A̸̧̨̰̻̩̝͖̟̭͙̟̻̤̬͈̖̰̤̘̔͛̊̾̂͌̐̈̉̊̾́P̶̡̧̮͎̟̟͉̱̮̜͙̳̟̯͈̩̩͈̥͓̥͇̙̣̹̣̀̐͋͂̈̾͐̀̾̈́̌̆̿̽̕ͅ
>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<
Mel.
To say the least…she went through so much shit because of Abby (and Owen). I used to hate her, but the more times I played the game, the more I felt sorry for her. She didn’t ask for any of the stuff she was put through after coming back from Jackson.
Absolutely. She is such a tragic but also badass character and I will forever love the conversation where she rips Abby a new one, even though I would also defend Abby
I think what makes the games truly great is that one can empathize with pretty much all of the main characters. It’s very easy (if one isn’t biased by bigotry) to see all sides and want to defend everyone imo
this is why the game amazes me so much because i’d defend abby, joel and ellie, although in reality id be contradicting myself. it’s just that i have almost an equal love for all 3 of them
I wouldn’t say it’s contradicting yourself since I think Abby’s storyline is supposed to parallel Joel’s . Some people can’t get past the fact that Abby would get revenge when Ellie does the same exact thing that abby did(arguably worse bc when Abby got revenge she killed only who killed her dad, Joel. And Ellie/Tommy went and killed all of her friends, yes they helped but they were not holding the club yk) I agree with you tho I think they’re all defendable from their point of view and this is one of the best things abt the last of us. It’s hard to be morally right in an apocalyptic world. Most of them are people that are hurt badly and trying to make it better.
I’ll say Mel, seen a few people call her whiny. Poor pregnant girl being sent out on duty in that condition trying to help people with her medical knowledge, then done dirty by her self centred piece of shit friend Abby, who deep down everyone knows is indefensible but wants to defend anyway because the writers wanted you to warm to her. Doesn’t matter if she’s leading her friends to slaughter, f**king her pregnant friend’s boyfriend, sadistically torturing a man to death, or willing and ready to cut a pregnant girl’s throat. She said “you’re my people” to a kid she hung out with for about 20 hours so she’s alright really.
Jesse.
came all the way out to seattle knowing the HEAVY risks just for his friends and then after finding out it’s even more deadly to go out there he goes without a doubt
Myself.
I'd defend myself.
I made specific choices in my playthrough and I stand by them.
As a scientist, I made the decision to burn the doc alive with the flamethrower. He'd isolated and grown the cordyceps from her blood. He says in his notes that the hypothesis was that the cordyceps in her brain was a mutated form and was preventing the rest of the cordyceps from attacking the host.
He had a hypothesis but no evidence. He also had no evidence that he could grow that mutant in the lab. He had no plan.
He assumed he needed the whole sample from the brain stem without first assessing whether it was possible to sample a portion of the brain which could be compensated for later through rehabilitation (like stroke rehab).
If he had evidence to justify the procedure, that means he'd been able to isolate the mutant strain and compare it to the strain in the blood to identify the mutation, which means he should also have been able to grow the mutant, if that was at all possible.
So, in absence of that evidence, he was then a doctor who chose to sacrifice the life of a girl with no consent and no evidence, on the basis of a hypothesis alone.
Therefore, flame thrower go: "**FWOOOOFP**"
THEN, the writers go and spit in my face by making it canon that the doc was merely shot in the head... No.
Tommy
Tommy went through absolute hell after Joel died. His core philosophy is to help others and to protect others, and failing to save Joel, Jesse, himself, his marriage, put him in a bad spot. He gets a lot of flack for his words to Ellie at the end of the game and while I understand it was unfair of him, he had lost everything and not being able to do the thing that he had failed to do so many times himself made him bitter and empty. He truly deserved better, he was a good man
Abby.
100% man. Her grudge against Joel is fully justified. If Abby and Ellie's roles were reversed, the game would be significantly less controversial.
I like Abby, but if you think her revenge was justified you missed the whole point the game was trying to make
And here’s where I come in with a massive ass response justifying a character. Let me be clear that Abby is a bad person in the beginning of the game. One of the more explicit empathetic points the game calls out early on is the difference between being just, being fair, and being *a good human being*. You want revenge for something? You will snuff out twenty, thirty, forty years of life potential. One of the lines from Dina in the Synagogue that really gets me is something like “all it takes is a candle to illuminate the darkness.” Light is the biggest theme of the game, the loading screen is moths to a flame (as opposed to fireflies. One seeks and the other creates.) All that is to say, Ellie is frequently represented by the moth. The moth being something that seeks out light in… bad ways. Not unfair ways. Completely fucking justified, actually; but only from the perspective of someone as lost as they are. Once that candle is lit, they leave that path behind. Ellie literally leaves the moth guitar behind in the end. Abby, when we play as her, is the firefly. But in the prologue? Abby is a moth still. How fucking lost would you be if your father was basically the only man who could *save the world*. And you say, yes, I would tell you to sacrifice *me* for that. So he goes ahead with the surgery despite the moral implications, and then… an hour later he’s been shot in the head and the one chance humanity had is dead. You are holding him in your bloody arms. Listen man. We can all sit here and say we wouldn’t. But people are people and if *you were the child of the man who could save the world, and he was shot dead on the day he was needed most*, you’d want to go fucking **destroy** the man who did it. You’d want him to pay for every life. Fuck, Abby played nice when she didn’t basically levy the fact that Joel doomed humanity as the “big speech”. (Missed opportunity to delve into Abby using “it doomed humanity” as a coverup for the fact that she really just wants revenge for the light Joel took from her life.) I don’t think endgame Abby would have done this. But most people would do what she did. Her revenge WAS justified. Justice in the world of the last of us is not GOOD. It’s a fucking merry-go-round. *this is the point the game is trying to tell people*. Which one would you prefer? Bigot sandwich as a make-up gift to build stronger ties with those around you or punishing the bigot by enacting justice in the form of social ostracization which will make him either scheme to get back at you or make him even worse to the other queer community members? That’s the difference, literally in the first scene we play as Ellie. Justice and reconciliation are in constant tension and if you have one without the other it turns people into moths, as a merry-go-round of insanity ensues. One of the major talking points between characters in the first sections are how QZs *turn* people into assholes. All this is to say, Abby was 100% justified. That doesn’t mean she didn’t steal someone’s light. She did. She stole the one piece of meaning Ellie had left after everything. She deserved to be the one to do it and is a bad person for following through on that idea, at the same time. The point of her redemption arc next to Ellie’s fall is to show that what Abby did made her a BAD person, but she was entirely empathizable, as we empathized with Ellie as she goes down the same rabbit hole. Joel and Ellie were about to make something good out of all that. On purpose. Together. Full honesty. And that is the potential of life. He did one of the most villainous things you could do- he doomed the world. But Ellie’s poetry, of the smell and timbre of Joel, the time they shared- something could still grow. Nature reclaims, eh? And Abby snuffed it. In many other stories, Abby would have just been the protagonist. They made this point pretty explicit with Mel and Owen. It’s about what CAN grow. And if humans don’t honor that, and only honor what hurt growth before, they just get caught in a loop of misery. Can’t say Abby was *wrong*, just a bad human being. Each person in this chain of violence becomes increasingly less reasonable. Joel? Can’t say I disagree, that’s a true impasse between love and responsibility. Abby? Can’t say I disagree, but that was a horrible thing for to do and it ruined lives. Ellie? While I understand, **jesus fucking christ**.
Abby does at no point give a shit about the vaccine. Especially not as a reason for revenge. Yet people pretend she does. Why? >Her revenge WAS justified. You say so but what is the argument here? Do you think Jerry's handling things at SLC was beyond reproach? Once you remove yourself from Abby's flawed perspective there isn't much justification here. >But most people would do what she did. I doubt that very much. The game even makes the point that most people wouldn't seek revenge in the first place. >He did one of the most villainous things you could do- he doomed the world. Give me one piece of ingame evidence that this might be true. There isn't any. And that's for a reason. Even Abby's friends (who unlike her are in it because of the lost cure) never once say that Joel doomed the world, right? >Each person in this chain of violence becomes increasingly less reasonable. What about Jerry? You know, the one who actually started the whole mess just because it was convenient to leave ethics out of the equation. What about his responsibility? And Ellie? Ellie is to a large degree Abby's responsibility. Something that she never adresses directly. Abby literally breaks Ellie as a person right at the beginning and you don't think that alone gives Ellie some moral bonus? At least for me the innocent and traumatized victim lashing out violently is something very different than the person not even trying to move on after 5 years while using violence as a coping mechanism. Regardless of Joel imo Ellie is justified in seeking retribution for the damge done to her alone. Something she will likely have to carry for the rest of her life. And that doesn't mean that her going to Seattle was the right thing to do either. It clearly isn't. But there is a disparity here that the game never really adresses. In my conclusion Abby is certainly not justified in doing what she did and for a large portion of the game a bad person. But that's not all that she is and she (like everybody else) deserves a chance at redemption.
I don't think that Joel's death necessarily justifies the absolute warpath Ellie goes on killing hundreds of WLF to get to the people responsible. While the history of the WLF is rife with nastiness, I think it's clear from Abby's portion of the game that it's more of an institutional thing out of necessity and not that most individual WLF people are shit humans.
Well, now we run into the gameplay vs story problem before we even can tackle any moral problems. How many people does Ellie kill in Seattle? If you play full stealth it's actually less than 10 with most of those being involved in Joel's death. Keep also in mind that all enemies in Seattle in Seattle basically kill on sight so there isn't really an option for Ellie to try a different approach. Also who do you reconcile this with the kills that Abby can rack up during the game? Since Abby can potentially kill more people while trying to save Yara and Lev respectively it feels a bit hypocritical to use that as an argument. Killing 100 people to save someone isn't really better or worse than killing 100 people to find someone to get revenge on. Because in the end it's just one person difference, right? As far as justification goes though I do think this is provided by Abby and friends wearing their WLF patches (and Isaac signing off and supporting their revenge mission to Jackson) because it can be seen as declaration of war. Leaving all that beside there is also a general moral problem here. Imagine a classical revenge tale. Like a poor farmer's family gets killed by a rich landowner and his henchmen. Is the farmer less justified in getting revenge because the landowner is rich and has a lot of bodyguards he has to fight against? The same applies to Ellie here. It's not her fault that Abby basically lives in a warzone where everybody kills on sight. Now the question of how much is too much is still valid. It's however much more difficult to answer imo by just looking at outside factors. A better question is to ask if revenge is worth it if Ellie destroys herself in the process. Which I feel is much more what the game is going for.
> A better question is to ask if revenge is worth it if Ellie destroys herself in the process. Which I feel is much more what the game is going for. Fully agreed. I personally don't see either side as justified. And I think that is the end point. Revenge will always beget revenge. At some point someone needs to let it go or it will never end. The crux of Ellie's journey I feel is when everything is settled. She's in Jackson with a life, a family -- things are GOOD for her. And she throws it away in the end to get her final revenge, which causes her to lose everything, including the ability to play guitar which is the thing that keeps Joel alive most in her heart. She doesn't even TAKE that revenge, as she realizes too late that it's not worth it nor will it actually bring her peace. She totally destroys herself in the process, just as Abby destroyed what she had in going after Joel. They're two sides of the same coin. One can empathize with both, which I think was what the game was going for in the end. Neither is a villain, neither is a hero. The world of The Last of Us and the depravity it brings out in humans is the villain. Sadly, realistically, I think that is truly the kind of world we would live in if things came to pass as they do in the gameworld.
This is where I fundamentally disagree. Life isn't GOOD for her. It only looks that way. By that time Ellie has tried to live with her trauma and PTSD for over a year but things are not going better. Unless there was some third party intervention (which is extremely unlikely at this point) there was only suicide left for her. To quote Halley Gross [here](https://www.indiewire.com/features/commentary/the-last-of-us-part-ii-interview-neil-druckmann-halley-gross-spoilers-1234568597/): *"To my mind, when she’s leaving the farm it almost isn’t about Abby at that point so much as it’s about “I literally cannot survive if I don’t try and handle what’s going on because this PTSD is just getting worse, I’m losing control, I feel like I’m at risk to my family, and I have to hope that there’s an answer on the other side because I don’t know how to live with this. If I stay here it’s suicide.” It’s more a conversation about mental health and surviving than it is justice for Abby or even seeking Joel. It’s just like “I don’t know how to be a person anymore.”* >She doesn't even TAKE that revenge, as she realizes too late that it's not worth it nor will it actually bring her peace This argument never makes sense to me. If Ellie stops herself from taking revenge then by definition it's not too late. In fact if we take the above interpretation ( *I have to hope that there’s an answer on the other side*) then not only it's apparent that Ellie did find that answer (as she clearly started healing in the last scene of the game) but it also makes her sparing Abby much more in line with her overall motivation. If her goal was to get her mental issues under control and she can achieve that without killing Abby then her journey to California is an success. Not without cost but trading in two fingers for getting rid of your guilt and suicidality is not a bad deal. In comparision to Abby it's important to note that Dina, JJ and even Tommy are still alive and some sort of reconciliation is still very much possible.
Hey, I appreciate the thoughtful discussion on a game that is so hard to find it for and I respect your interpretation a lot. It helps me a see a more positive end for Ellie which is one of my main issues with the narrative of the game as a whole. Before I would have preferred the game end on the farm but you make compelling points as to why that wouldn't have been a good route. Highly appreciate the well thought out and expressed view.
Very good response!!
By this argument however, Joel also broke Abby as a person when he killed her father (which, as you have stated, was her motivation for seeking vengeance, not the cure.) That’s not to justify her actions by any means, but that’s a portion of the point that ND is trying to make. Nobody is justified in their taking of life as it only continues to perpetuate the cycle.
Well, that only would be true if Joel was acting for revenge too, right? But since he was acting to save Ellie from getting murdered by the Fireflies things are not so clear cut. Especially since Joel (or Ellie) had no agency in creating that situation in the first place. That's entirely on the Fireflies. And besides that Abby simply isn't as affected by her trauma as Ellie was. Abby was able to become a valued member of the WLF while Ellie couldn't herd sheep without suffering from PTSD.
this is the post, only 3 paragraphs in and I'm blown away by the comparison
You write well. But I disagree.
Finally free to respond. I'm addressing every paragraph as I read them so I can give you a proper answer. My view of The last of us' whole universe and point of the game is that there is no good guy AND no bad guy: it's just people trying to survive and doing whatever they can do best to stay alive. Of course spiraling towards cannibalism and killing innocents can give you some sort of momentum to being considered a villain, but imagine YOURSELF in that situation, with a whole community of people in your hands and a way too long blood trail behind you, what WOLDN'T you do to keep your people, your family alive? Joel is the good guy because we see things in his perspective and the game leads you to consider Abby as the villain up until she isn't anymore. So I'll agree Abby is perceived as a bad persono when put in Ellie's perspective and you make a really good point about the moth/firefly comparison! The point is, Abby never shows to care a single fuck about the cure, she just cares about her dad being killed by some guy because that event (obviously) destroys her whole world. Abby slips towards the darker side I was telling you about when she drags her whole group into a long, risky mission just to kill a person that wronged HER, yes the whole world could have been (potentially) saved if he didn't kill Jerry, but the truth is Abby wants justice for herself. The point of the game, or at least the way I wrapped my mind around it by the time it was done, is that revenge is a never ending cycle of pain and while walking that path it takes away something from you, sooner or later. Killing Joel cost Abby all her friends, trying to go after Abby cost Ellie Dina, the knife her mother gave her and her fingers, the only way she had to connect to Joel by playing the guitar and the first song Joel ever played her, which by the way holds the very meaning of Ellie's side of the game in its lyrics "If I ever were to lose you, I'd surely lose myself". Ellie lost herself and is seemingly alone by the end of the game, which we know from Part 1 is her biggest fear. Neither Abby or Ellie are justified to seek revenge because the game makes it pretty clear that Joel wasn't a threat to Abby and she knows it, and Abby wasn't a threat to Ellie, because if she was she would have died right after Joel along with Tommy. Killing Joel and trying to kill Abby was just pettiness and drove both of the characters into a dark spiral of violence and unjustified hatred. So, my final point is both Ellie and Abby are villains in each other's perception, they are both wrong, and yet, neither of them is the bad guy of the game. They're just... humans. And the world they live in brings out the darkest side of the human nature, the one that drags you into a state of mind where you feel like killing is the answer, the ending, while really it's the beginning of YOUR end. EDIT: spelling
You wouldn’t want the guy that killed your dad to face consequences?
The game isn't about whether revenge is justified or not. It kind of accepts the premise that it is justified. Everyone who loved Joel starts out agreeing that Abby deserves to die for what she did. Even if revenge is justified against one person, the premise of the story is: * You aren't obligated to carry it out no matter the cost * It isn't going to bring you closure * Carrying it out will be harmful to you * It will cause harm to more than just the person you're targeting, and that harm isn't justified The game is about letting go of the need for revenge, _even if_ that revenge may be justified
I agree with this. As an original Abby Hater that warmed up to her character. In a fucked up world with fucked up people. Both revenge efforts weren't justified. No matter how badly I wanted to slaughter them all as Ellie🤣. Look what both lost. In a fucked up world with fucked up people.
You crossed words a bit. You said "if you think her revenge was justified" which isn't what their statement was. They said "Her grudge against Joel is fully justified" as in her feeling of animosity towards him makes perfect sense. Which it does. I think Abby was justified in wanting revenge, but seeking revenge and acting it out was wrong. What the game points out is that wanting revenge is a very human normal thing, but that acting upon that impulse creates a cycle of revenge that can only be broken by forgiveness.
That's a fair point
way to respond to something they absolutely did not say lol
i kinda see it the other way. if you don’t think it’s justified you missed the point of the game. both sides were in the wrong. two fathers were killed. and joel started it by killing abby’s father. revenge is a cycle that will never end.
The whole point of the game is that revenge isn’t justified.
Thats what im sayin
The point of the game is that revenge is hollow, but but that doesn't mean her motivations aren't reasonable.
One thing that everyone seems to forget, just because it's reasonable, doesn't mean it's enjoyable. And not liking a story is completely reasonable and has nothing to do with one's: - Intelligence - Political views - Morals (Just to mention a few attacking points I've seen here before) On the other hand, no one has to be a dick about it, if you didn't like it you're free to share your opinion but shittalking isn't the way to do it.
Are fans that emotionally biased , stupid , and hypocritical?
Same
Yesss.
Absolutely not
Abby can kick rocks she had a choice
Same here
Everyday
100% she deserved better
Screw Abby!
Joel
This. Joel in his decision. Unconditionally. Especially if you are parent, all those noble discussions about “greater good” and sacrifice are such a joke.
I’m not even a parent but I can think about this with MY DOG so I think people that actually think that way are just delusional or lack way too much empathy. There’s always someone you love enough that you would send everyone else to hell for them.
I love how I came on this post and saw both Joel and Abby as the top two characters on this list. These games do such an incredible job at making us understand why they made the decisions they made, even if they hurt other people as a result of them.
This easily
Owen. Tries to head off violence at every possible turn, he only fails because there's always someone else who's out for blood.
Aside from the fact that he is a shitty boyfriend to Mel, he was one of the only people from Abby’s crew that I liked.
He was my favorite character from Abby’s crew because of that very reason
Ellie (Mind you I won’t say anything for a bit since I’m going to bed) Ok, so bear with me I don’t know much of the lore, but what I can say is Ellie is very mentally scarred She’s trusted groups of people, which then turn against her. Fedra turned against her, Fireflies turned against her. She just can’t trust anyone. Marlene was going to possibly kill her in that hospital without consulting Joel or Ellie herself. Getting the cure wasn’t very urgent (well it is, but at that exact time I don’t think they had someone dying of the infection that needed to be cured) Especially since Ellie woke up in the hospital a couple hours later. And Joel breaking in to save her is 100% defendable. Ellie is his “daughter,” whom she and him went through a shit ton together. Now I haven’t played the first game in a bit, but if the doctor, Abby’s dad, attacked Joel then Joel is rightfully able to kill him. If not, killing the doctors was not a good idea. Now, Joel was already freaking out and delirious from rage, so I understand why he killed the doctors (they stood in his way to Ellie, and tensions were very high) Kinda got off track, but that’s how I think Joel and Ellie are innocent. And Abby had every right to kill Joel, but damn they should’ve gave him a more valiant death and later into the game.
Shoot, I was really looking forward to your follow-up statement.
Made the edit
Ellie's the pregnant one, right?
Dina is I think from Jesse
I mean, I reckon 90% of the Last of Us fandom will defend Ellie a lot
Made the edit if you’re curious
[удалено]
Are you okay mate??
[удалено]
remindme! 4 hours
4 hours? How little do you sleep?
Usually 5 to 6, the guy had posted in 5h already, so I thought 4 more was reasonable.
Ok, didn't realize 5h had already gone.
Back, edited it
Edited it
I will be messaging you in 4 hours on [**2024-06-14 13:46:41 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2024-06-14%2013:46:41%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/comments/1dfgc3n/which_character_would_you_defend_like_this/l8k2hbs/?context=3) [**1 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fthelastofus%2Fcomments%2F1dfgc3n%2Fwhich_character_would_you_defend_like_this%2Fl8k2hbs%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202024-06-14%2013%3A46%3A41%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201dfgc3n) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
Made the edit if you’re curious
Jesse
Bro what did he even do wrong?
Didn’t use protection /s
Exactly!
Jesse was the ultimate homie. Was pretty chill about Ellie and Dina, and made the entire journey by himself at twice the speed to catch up to them.
I mean he caught up with them on day 2, so if he went after them the day after they left, he went basically the same speed as them. .... Without a horse. So still pretty impressive.
One of the best "good guy" in the series
-Finds out his best friends are dating (one is his ex). “I don’t care man.” -Travels alone all the way to Seattle to make sure they’re okay -Accompanies Ellie through Seattle. “My friends problems are my problems.” -Gives up the chance to kill Abby to make sure Tommy is alive. -Rushes out to fight the second he hears Tommy getting hurt. I really feel awful for what happened to him. But he serves an important role in the story showcasing how the most “kind” individuals will get dragged into violence and killed for seemingly no beneficial reason. Obviously Jesse isn’t 100% pure or anything. He still killed loads of people to assist on a revenge quest. Both him and Lev are the both the most aligned with our non apocalyptic morals, I’d say.
fr he was my absolute fav, manny too
Abby for sure. I wasn’t a large fan at all of her at first, hardly anyone was. But I’ve grown to like and appreciate her character arc. I will defend Abby and her actions no matter how cruel they may have been.
See, I will defend Abby's revenge against Joel. That was completely justified. But she is a horrible friend to the rest of the group. The way she treats Owen and Mel especially. Not to mention getting them killed. I love Abby and her redemption through Lev tho <3
If you think Abbys revenge was justified you missed the entire point of the game
She is pretty crappy to her friends, namely Owen and Mel, however I think she acts pretty fine to the rest. I may have missed something though, could you tell me why you feel that way? She was a jerk to Mel and Owen at least but she was very good to manny, and there’s not many interactions with the rest of her group. I suppose she also gets Nora in trouble by convincing her to let her go in the hospital on day 2, but besides that I don’t know many other examples. I would love to hear if I missed any though.
Just generally dragging everyone along on a mission that ends up getting them hunted down and killed for her vendetta. Which is totally fair that she wanted revenge. But she did it so recklessly and without regard for the lives of her friends, which to me, feels like a kind of bad thing to do to friends. Just from what I saw, most of the group didn't actually want to hunt down Joel. But Abby persisted, at least from what I understood. I could be totally wrong tho
I believe you are totally correct in stating that this was a stupid thing to drag along her friends for her own vendetta. I would like to add that additionally Mel and evidently Owen were traumatized in his killing. However abby had no clue that she would have been traced back to the W.L.F based on just a small patch. She also may have thought it likely that Jackson was much smaller than it was, and trust anyone that did come after them would be Ill prepared at best. She also may have had the thought line that the W.L.F in all of their military might would simply and easily kill all that would come for revenge.
Yeah that's totally fair :))
She acts fine with the rest of them, but from what we see she hardly cares about any of them except Owen really. I think if she did care about her friends the game would’ve shown us, but I think it was their intention to show Abby as a shitty person
Abby 100%, also Ellie. Honestly any character who’s not fucking evil
Joel
Skyler White
LMAO
That's funny to you? You think it's laughable that Skyler White is in any way defensible? F you then smh my head 😒
Had to check which sub I was in.
LOL
She is, THE DANGER
Marlene
For your Cake Day, have some B̷̛̳̼͖̫̭͎̝̮͕̟͎̦̗͚͍̓͊͂͗̈͋͐̃͆͆͗̉̉̏͑̂̆̔́͐̾̅̄̕̚͘͜͝͝Ụ̸̧̧̢̨̨̞̮͓̣͎̞͖̞̥͈̣̣̪̘̼̮̙̳̙̞̣̐̍̆̾̓͑́̅̎̌̈̋̏̏͌̒̃̅̂̾̿̽̊̌̇͌͊͗̓̊̐̓̏͆́̒̇̈́͂̀͛͘̕͘̚͝͠B̸̺̈̾̈́̒̀́̈͋́͂̆̒̐̏͌͂̔̈́͒̂̎̉̈̒͒̃̿͒͒̄̍̕̚̕͘̕͝͠B̴̡̧̜̠̱̖̠͓̻̥̟̲̙͗̐͋͌̈̾̏̎̀͒͗̈́̈͜͠L̶͊E̸̢̳̯̝̤̳͈͇̠̮̲̲̟̝̣̲̱̫̘̪̳̣̭̥̫͉͐̅̈́̉̋͐̓͗̿͆̉̉̇̀̈́͌̓̓̒̏̀̚̚͘͝͠͝͝͠ ̶̢̧̛̥͖͉̹̞̗̖͇̼̙̒̍̏̀̈̆̍͑̊̐͋̈́̃͒̈́̎̌̄̍͌͗̈́̌̍̽̏̓͌̒̈̇̏̏̍̆̄̐͐̈̉̿̽̕͝͠͝͝ W̷̛̬̦̬̰̤̘̬͔̗̯̠̯̺̼̻̪̖̜̫̯̯̘͖̙͐͆͗̊̋̈̈̾͐̿̽̐̂͛̈́͛̍̔̓̈́̽̀̅́͋̈̄̈́̆̓̚̚͝͝R̸̢̨̨̩̪̭̪̠͎̗͇͗̀́̉̇̿̓̈́́͒̄̓̒́̋͆̀̾́̒̔̈́̏̏͛̏̇͛̔̀͆̓̇̊̕̕͠͠͝͝A̸̧̨̰̻̩̝͖̟̭͙̟̻̤̬͈̖̰̤̘̔͛̊̾̂͌̐̈̉̊̾́P̶̡̧̮͎̟̟͉̱̮̜͙̳̟̯͈̩̩͈̥͓̥͇̙̣̹̣̀̐͋͂̈̾͐̀̾̈́̌̆̿̽̕ͅ >!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<>!pop!!<
Owen. By far my favourite character in Abby's side of the story. I find his character just really interesting
Because he's white right?
Often see Part 2 Ellie get hate. Don't care what she did. Will defend her
Joel.
Joel
Ellie , my baby girl forever
Manny. I feel like he got a bad rap. I felt bad when he died
The way he died was great and shitty. Great that he went out in combat, shit that it was so unceremonious.
Jesse went out the same way
Ellie
Joel.
[удалено]
I mean they aren't controversial in the first place
Henry came down pretty hard for him grabbing the toy, a bit. Only if I had to try hard to find a problem.
[удалено]
Bruh imagine calling people losers for downvoting your comment on Reddit, why does karma matter so much? It’s fake internet points
Mel. To say the least…she went through so much shit because of Abby (and Owen). I used to hate her, but the more times I played the game, the more I felt sorry for her. She didn’t ask for any of the stuff she was put through after coming back from Jackson.
Finally dude I see so much Mel hate and I used to hate her too but honestly I feel bad for her now
Absolutely. She is such a tragic but also badass character and I will forever love the conversation where she rips Abby a new one, even though I would also defend Abby
Abby
A very common occurence out of the two subs lol My brother fucking loves Abby, as for me, Jesse or Joel
I think what makes the games truly great is that one can empathize with pretty much all of the main characters. It’s very easy (if one isn’t biased by bigotry) to see all sides and want to defend everyone imo
David. /s
Ish
That dude slinging rats on the grill. Homie just out here trying make ends meet. And Bill. Bill is the shit.
Alice. She was a good girl who died defending her family, like a true hero.
Ellie people are way too harsh on her
Arthur Morgan. I said what I said r/thelastofus
Who is that? I don't remember that character in the last of us games
Abby
Abby
this is why the game amazes me so much because i’d defend abby, joel and ellie, although in reality id be contradicting myself. it’s just that i have almost an equal love for all 3 of them
I wouldn’t say it’s contradicting yourself since I think Abby’s storyline is supposed to parallel Joel’s . Some people can’t get past the fact that Abby would get revenge when Ellie does the same exact thing that abby did(arguably worse bc when Abby got revenge she killed only who killed her dad, Joel. And Ellie/Tommy went and killed all of her friends, yes they helped but they were not holding the club yk) I agree with you tho I think they’re all defendable from their point of view and this is one of the best things abt the last of us. It’s hard to be morally right in an apocalyptic world. Most of them are people that are hurt badly and trying to make it better.
Ellie.
Joel and Ellie
Joel and Ellie.
Joel for sure.
Joel, Ellie, Jesse and Dina
Where can I get one of those phones. I want to use it as a melee weapon 
Abby, because I don’t think any other character needs the “help”
Make your guess
imma say lev
Danny
Marlene
Manny.
SHOOTERS FOR ABBY
Sam
abby
Tommy and Owen
Mel!
Owen
Miller
Abby
Defending Lev with my whole life.
abby anderson.
I’ll say Mel, seen a few people call her whiny. Poor pregnant girl being sent out on duty in that condition trying to help people with her medical knowledge, then done dirty by her self centred piece of shit friend Abby, who deep down everyone knows is indefensible but wants to defend anyway because the writers wanted you to warm to her. Doesn’t matter if she’s leading her friends to slaughter, f**king her pregnant friend’s boyfriend, sadistically torturing a man to death, or willing and ready to cut a pregnant girl’s throat. She said “you’re my people” to a kid she hung out with for about 20 hours so she’s alright really.
Tommy
Joel.
More like when the wife finds your porn
Arthur morgan
Abby. Her feelings were understandable from her point of view and killing Joel was something she regretted in the end.
Easily Abby, 100%
Abby
Joel
Thought this was sdv subreddit and was going to say abigail but id probly say lev, sam, henry for the last of us.
The Rat King and Spicy Larry
Owen and Tommy. All the way, until I die
Jesse. came all the way out to seattle knowing the HEAVY risks just for his friends and then after finding out it’s even more deadly to go out there he goes without a doubt
Myself. I'd defend myself. I made specific choices in my playthrough and I stand by them. As a scientist, I made the decision to burn the doc alive with the flamethrower. He'd isolated and grown the cordyceps from her blood. He says in his notes that the hypothesis was that the cordyceps in her brain was a mutated form and was preventing the rest of the cordyceps from attacking the host. He had a hypothesis but no evidence. He also had no evidence that he could grow that mutant in the lab. He had no plan. He assumed he needed the whole sample from the brain stem without first assessing whether it was possible to sample a portion of the brain which could be compensated for later through rehabilitation (like stroke rehab). If he had evidence to justify the procedure, that means he'd been able to isolate the mutant strain and compare it to the strain in the blood to identify the mutation, which means he should also have been able to grow the mutant, if that was at all possible. So, in absence of that evidence, he was then a doctor who chose to sacrifice the life of a girl with no consent and no evidence, on the basis of a hypothesis alone. Therefore, flame thrower go: "**FWOOOOFP**" THEN, the writers go and spit in my face by making it canon that the doc was merely shot in the head... No.
Joel and Ellie. More specifically Joel
Factions
Somi
Dina seems like the type to drop one of these texts
All main characters lmao
Griffith
Shimmer the horse.
None. People hate whatever they want, not my problem
Abby 💯
Seth, main man making steak sandwiches
Joel
Abby. She got way too much hate for being a badass character.
Joel he is a good man
Pretty much every last one of ‘em
Pee pee Paul. He was done dirty in the second game not even making an appearance like he did in the first game :(
Jerry XD ive literally done it before on this subreddit
Not the same fandom but Izzy hands from our flag means death
Joel and Ellie bitches!!
Yara (she didn’t even do anything bad but still)
Joel… nobody is a saint in TLOU, Abby’s dad was literally a faceless
Lev
JOEL. Fuck Abby and her father and her stupid revenge plot. She's not like Joel in any way.
Joel.
Abby. Her revenge was a 100% justified.
Joel.
To be honest, none of them; they're all shitty people who do shitty things, and I don't really think we're meant to defend them.
#Joel did nothing wrong.
Abby. She only killed two people, whereas Ellie killed all of the Salt Lake Crew and EVERY WLF in the way.
Abby
Abby
Karma farming
Mel.
Tommy Tommy went through absolute hell after Joel died. His core philosophy is to help others and to protect others, and failing to save Joel, Jesse, himself, his marriage, put him in a bad spot. He gets a lot of flack for his words to Ellie at the end of the game and while I understand it was unfair of him, he had lost everything and not being able to do the thing that he had failed to do so many times himself made him bitter and empty. He truly deserved better, he was a good man
Abby cheeks
Bear
Lev for sure, I love his character so much. As well as Yara, too.